Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM

Thanks, Nigel. Those 2 question marks represent a thumbs up.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: meself
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 03:51 PM

Poems, in general, never 'needed' to rhyme. There has been non-rhyming poetry in English as long as there has been something called English. However, in the 20th century, non-rhyming poetry became particularly popular - among serious poets, anyway.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,Gallus Moll
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 03:17 PM

Members of our creative writing group have been submitting '50 word' pieces to The Scottish Book Trust monthly challenge (they sugggest a title/subject, you interpret it how you will.)
Some people succeed in producing neat sentences......but mine nearly always consist of broken phrases as I try to express the pictures in my mind (and I find 50 words extremely restrictive!!)
A friend, who is a retired teacher of English, commented on my creations, calling them 'poems' - to my amazement, they didn't actually rhyme..... but apparently nowadays they needn't?

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 11:53 AM

Steve:
I'm seeing Vic's post as "Steve Gardham's post" followed by a 'thumbs up' picture. But not all obscure symbols are viewable on all browsers.
Cheers

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 10:49 AM

Vic's post??

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 07:34 AM

Steve Gardham's post 

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 10:42 AM

And the well-known

There was a young man from Tralee
Who was stung on the bum by a wasp
When asked if it hurt
He said 'Not very Much,
It can do it again if it likes.'

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:56 AM

Things that are meant to rhyme are sometimes better when they don't; even in Limericks. Here is an example :_

There was a young lady from Bude
Who went for a swim in the lake
Where a man in a punt
Stuck his pole in her ear
And said, "You can't swim here, it's private!"

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:14 AM

I consider the ability to write a great song without using perfect rhymes as a sign of a great songwriter, even more so when we don't notice the lack of rhymes.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:25 PM

I've been singing Wild Mountain Thyme and Dirty Old Town for over 50 years like many many others, and not once have I had recourse to think about any rhyming. They're songs for chrissake and they work very well. Don't sing em or listen to em if they upset you that much! I can think of many perfectly rhymed songs that are absolute crap!

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: meself
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

Now there's another one I never noticed doesn't rhyme. I mean, it never occurred to me to think about it.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: PHJim
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 10:14 AM

My dad didn't like the verse:

The other night Dear as I lay sleeping
I dreamt I held you in my arms
When I awoke Dear, I was mistaken
So I hung my head and cried.

He always sang i as:

The other night Dear as I lay sleeping
I dreamt I held you by my side
When I awoke Dear, I was mistaken
So I hung my head and cried.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:10 AM

The first time I heard ‘purple heather’ being sung was in Rod Stewart’s version however, it may have been a variant before that.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 22 Oct 21 - 04:46 AM

Sorry, can’t agree that the only kind of rhyme is the perfect rhyme of vowel sounds and following consonant letters (moon and June). There are many other types of rhyme, and to suggest those are not rhymes is misinformation.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 10:40 PM

Wild Mountain Thyme,
Why doesn't it rhyme?

Is the writer's life ended,
Poetic licence suspended?

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 07:05 PM

assonance, consonance, alliteration - part of the toolbox of the poet

Choosing these tools instead of the rhyme is an indication of the poet's skill, surely? That's why I cited these two examples. They are substitutes for rhymes, not rhymes.

It's interesting also that the song 'Nothing Rhymed' by Gilbert O'Sullivan, does rhyme!

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 01:27 PM

Sorry, last one is consonance.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM

I’ve said this before, but there are rhymes in songs like Dirty Old Town, America, etc, but they are not perfect clean rhymes. Assonance and consonance are rhyme types where the sound of the vowels or the sound of the consonants rhyme, even though the whole word does not. “Empty and aching and I don’t know why, counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike” “Dreamed a dream by the old canal, kissed my girl by the factory wall”. Sometimes the rhymes are internal, rather than at the end of lines, and sometimes are just repeated initial letters (alliteration) “in a deep and dark December”.

And the leaves that are green (assonance) turn to brown (consonance)
And they whither the wind (alliteration)
and they crumble in your hand (assonance).

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 07:01 AM

Am I alone in thinking that the verb "to perfume" (used in the intransitive, as has been suggested here, "the bowers are perfuming") is just about as grating as "to medal" or, worse, "to podium?" It won't be long at this rate before we start to hear such horrors as "she was such a great athlete that for many years she was regularly podiuming..."

'Perfuming" might rhyme, but it don't chime... (See what I did there...?)

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: meself
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 07:55 PM

"In the specific case of WMT the other verses set a bit of a pattern" - No: they come after the non-rhyming verse, so the pattern hasn't been set when the non-rhyme occurs.

Put me in the camp of those who didn't notice the lack of a rhyme until they read this thread.

To my ear, the bit with 'perfuming' seems just a little too, um - "poetic", whereas "all around the blooming heather" is closer to English as she's spoke.

Someone above was mocking 'tower' for 'bower' - I have a book of Clancy Bros. lyrics that has 'tower' .....

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:19 PM

Two other beautiful songs that don't rhyme:

'Dirty Old Town' by Ewan Macoll and 'America' by Paul Simon

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,darkriver
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:00 PM

I'm posting this LONG (nearly 22 years) after the original post. But I'll try not to flog a dead horse.

In P.G Woodhouse's "The Code of the Woosters", a character goes into conniption fits whenever he hears WMT because it doesn't rhyme. (A totally hilarious book, BTW.)

The quote from "Fern Hill" DOES rhyme. It's a type of rhyme called assonance, in which the rhyme is in the vowels, not the whole word:
Easy / mEans / dyIng / sEa

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 02:29 PM

"April is the cruellest month, breeding        
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing        
Memory and desire, stirring        
Dull roots with spring rain. ..."

"Oh, when I was young and easy
In the mercy of his means
Time held me green and dying,
Though I sang in my chains like the sea."

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity..."

Those don't rhyme either, but they're poetry right enough.

For poets and songsmiths rhyme is a resource, not an obligation. If the poem/song works for its intended audience, then whether it rhymes or not matters little. Despite the missing rhyme in verse one, the MacPeake version of WMT has lifted the hearts and voices of audiences for many years, and long may it continue to do so.

Other versions or variants also have their devotees, and good luck to them. Scholars may debate which version of text or tune is the 'original' one, if they wish, but no Central Committee of the Folk Party has the power to decide which is the 'correct' version for singing.

Wassail!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: buddhuu
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:07 PM

Did anyone say that verse had to, or even should, rhyme?

In the specific case of WMT the other verses set a bit of a pattern that makes the lone non-rhymer seem, to some of us, a little curious.

Nothing wrong with non-rhyming verse in poetry or song.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:26 PM

There is an excellent precedent for verse that doesn't rhyme. Shakespeare wrote his plays in verse, but the verse doesn't rhyme.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

Deportees doesn't rhyme

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 10:48 AM

Returning to the matter of rhyming (and assonance, alliteration &c), in one of his Commonplace Books - I think the First, kept when he was in his early twenties - Burns considers this and, as far as I recall, wonders whether "some poet with a particularly nice ear might make a song which dispensed with rhyme entirely". I think the phrase "sameness of jingle" occurs, too; perhaps someone with access to a published copy could give the passage more accurately?

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 12:12 AM

Indeed, Geoff: I have often wondered about the Coppers' ©-ing of their family versions. I don't know if they get much in way of royalties via PFS, & I am sure they don't strictly police clubnites &c to make sure their 'work' is not being sung without authorisation and so on. Not sure of legal position whatever.

We know that Jon Dudley reads this site and sometimes comments regarding Copper matters. Perhaps he will come across this and have something to say?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM

MtheMG,

Leaving aside my original comment which was not meant to be too serious, you have touched on an important point.

You refer to the Coppers' versions of the songs they sing as "(c)Coppersongs" which touches on the issue of what copyright they are entitled to? I suspect their attribution should be "Trad arr. Coppersongs" or something similar. Are there versions sufficiently different for a copyright to stand up and so make them truly "their songs"? I don't know the answer and I suspect that if you asked the lawyers you may well get as many different answers as the number of lawyers you asked.

In the meantime, we will all sing the versions we individually prefer and that is how it should be.

Geoff

PS. I don't think I've put that very well but I hope you get my drift. G

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:54 PM

Jeannie Robertson's song comprises the first verse of Hugh McWilliam's Lass Among the Heather and the second verse of Tannahill's Braes o' Balquhither.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:07 PM

Indeed, Dave. This thread has been in danger thruout of becoming one of those chimerical searches for a 'correct' or 'definitive' version: we, of all people should know, that when it comes to tradition there ain't no such animal: and which is the 'best' version can only ever be a question of taste. So what's not to like about loving both [or all] versions?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:17 AM

I can't make up my mind. I like the non-rhyming version and the rhyming version.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:05 AM

If the rules abouit poetry were that natural and eternal, we'd not be rhyming nowadays but still using assonance and alliteration.

Ayway, here's another version from the tradition:

THE FAIR O' BALNAFANNAN

I was come from a fair,
From the fair o' Balnafannan,
When I met a winsome dame,
She was as fair as the Annan,
I asked her where she dwelt
As we strode along together
On the bonny mountain side.
She replied "amang the heather".

I will build you a bower
Down by yon clear fountain,
And I'll cover it a' o'er
Wi' the floo'ers o' the mountain;
I'll range the mountain side
And the dark glen so weary,
And I'll bring home my spoils
To the bower o' my deary.

As sung by Jeannie Robertson as "The Braes o' Balquidder" on Collector 10" LP JFS4001, "Lord Donald".

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:19 AM

Taking my parenthesis above as a basis, I have started a new BS thread about the difference between 'pedantry' & 'accuracy'.

~M~

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:55 AM

Not too sure about that, Tootler. Of course there are other versions of all the Copper Family songs; but you must remember that the versions they sing are actually "(c) Coppersongs". If one is singing a version learned from them, which they would sing from Jim's Book ~~ or perhaps Brasser's before him ~~ then one is singing one of 'their' songs, however it may be that other traditional singers have sung different variants. I can appreciate where this may be regarded as a debatable point: but, from the point of view of accuracy [& I have still to come across a valid argument as to the difference between the pejorative 'pedantry' & the essential watchword & principle that 'accuracy matters'], I still think I was justified in writing that "it's their song".

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:01 AM

But that is not how the Coppers sing it so I always sing it the way they do ~~ it's their song.

Since you take great pride in being pedantic, I'll indulge in a little myself. It's not their song at all, it's a traditional song and they no more own it than you or I do. Agreed it's the version they sing and you may like to stick to that version which is fair enough.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:31 AM

... sorry, that should of course have read 'end of line 3'

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:29 AM

A comparison might be drawn here to the Coppers' Sweet Lovely Nancy, stanza 2:

When I am far across the sea
And you know not where I am
Kind letters I will write to you
From every foreign land

I have known singers who used 'thee' instead of 'you' at end of line 2, thus getting an extra rhyme. But that is not how the Coppers sing it so I always sing it the way they do ~~ it's their song. But no harm really done by those who do emend it to 'thee' if it makes them feel more comfortable with it, surely?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: buddhuu
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:42 AM

Sorry to resurrect another oldie. Not trying to start (or revive) an argument, but I'd add my take, FWIW.

Firstly, I love the song in both rhyming and non-rhyming form. I have nothing against either, although I do have a preference.

I've always found the non-rhyming version, with its "Grows around the blooming heather" too repetitive to my ears: just a sprig too much blooming heather. I always preferred the "perfuming" version. I think it is valid. It certainly seems to make sense in light of various clues.

a) The rest of the verses approximately rhyme to the scheme that would allow "perfuming".

b) The "source" by Tannahill went:
An' the wild mountain thyme
A' the moorlands perfumin'

To me the question is not so much why should it have to rhyme as why should it not when the rhyme was in the "original" and works perfectly.

I have no objection to others singing it the other way, but I'll stick with "perfuming". It isn't in the least bit forced, it is natural and perfect and faithful to the source that inspired Mr McPeake.

If McPeake really did intend "Grows around the blooming heather", I find myself wondering why. The imagery is great, but for me personally it works slightly less well in the overall context of the song.

I have my asbestos drawers on.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,machree01
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:37 AM

Here is the Clancy Brothers singing Will Ye Go Lassie Go.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=-BEl5hTNWh8

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:14 AM

Thyme, Rhyme

Pretty close for my calculations.

Anyway Rhyme is the punctuation of poetry and lyrics. The music has echoes and repeats, and choruses to do that anyway. There is a whle sub-genre called tone poems. Rhyme is just one more bullet and you can slay them in other ways. No sense in filling them with lead if you have already deaded them.

I personally like the occasional "rhyme refused", it has a certain humour if the word they all expect is rude and the first sounds let them think it will be that word, not to be overused though.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

Rico - was that Baj? I remember she used to add a verse - but don't remember the words either.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:48 AM

.........so to rhyme he should have a 'hornet in his bornet'??

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:37 AM

There was an old a man from St. Bees
Who was stung on the arm by a wasp.
When they said, "Does it hurt?"
He said, "Not very much,
It's a good job it wasn't a hornet."

- W. S. Gilbert (after Edward Lear)


(quite a long way after)

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,jo
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:47 AM

Heard Dylan's 'Hurricane' today. Rhyme thin. Still XLTE.

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: GUEST,rico [guest]
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:38 AM

First, I'd like to say, "Wow." I did a quick google search to find a good link to the variant origins of this song - but never thought I'd hit such an interesting goldmine in one thread.

My personal experience and opinion is this:

Firstly, I was searching for this song because I worked for years at a renaissance faire; as many do, ours in Sterling, NY ended with this song - kind of a beautiful way to say "last call, folks." I remember it fondly and often. The troupe there sang it with the "bloomin' heather" line as well -- and I must say that it is that particular line that sticks in my head, which may relate to the next point:

As an amateur who has studied language and poetry, even I understand a few easy, strong points [:Dave] -- rules can be broken, and when they are, and done so gracefully, they are more powerful for it; in addition, a great deal of poetry and prose throughout the centuries has delicately wove its way between rhyme and un-rhyme, in the same piece; lastly, FORGET how YOU might pronounce it -- have you ANY idea how a 17th to 18th century balladeer, or peasant for that matter, would pronounce it?? Or how others assemble it?

When I was at the Faire, the queen would pause long (as most people I've heard sing this do...) on the word blooming right before heather, thus rhyming with the previous bloomin, and moving heather, memorably, nearly to it's own line in the stanza.

She also added a lovely verse that I wish I could remember fully -umm..

and we'll all raise our glasses
and [toast] the evening come

... {wish I could remember the second 2 lines..
... ...that's why I was looking in the first place... :) }

Point - it's creativity, intelligence & style, Dave. And not limiting yourself to rhyme, even -- or especially --when the 'rest' of your piece does rhyme, shows a true comprehension of the possibilities of the human voice -- and an insight into the different ways that the same sentence, or verse, can be read, or sung, by each of us just a wee bit differently than another.

Don't be afraid
of words that
don't rhyme, Dave.
Or don't, if you
aren't
list
en
ing.

( tell e e cummings he sucked. i dare you. he'll haunt yer ass :) )

Yessir that's me -- rico
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:17 PM

Well it still seems strange that when the rest of the whole song DOES rhyme, there's this one line that DOESN'T in the most commonly sung version. I'll stick with "perfuming" if I'm doing it solo (but then you never are as everyone else expects "grows around the blooming heather")!
A friend just wrote a new song, sang it through to me: after she'd finished, said, "Did you notice it wan't it rhyme?" To be honest, I hadn't, tho' the words were excellent and really told a story! But I'd say, be consistent: either rhyme all the way through, or don't rhyme at all.
And I guess "Santa" has blocked (blacked?)sinuses from climbing dowm all those chimneys and can't smell the heather perfuming the moorlands?

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:41 PM

I've been singing "Wild Mountain Thyme" for fifty years now and I never noticed that it didn't rhyme. That never bothered me, and it doesn't bother me now that I see it pointed out.

I've seen a fair number of songs royally screwed up by someone (technically minded) trying to cram them into a rhyme scheme. Sometimes the unrhymed line evokes a vivid image that you lose when the word or words are changed to make it rhyme. All too often, wrenching the words around to make them rhyme replaces the image and / or the general flow of the song with something pedestrian and awkward.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: mike gouthro
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:26 PM

I have no comment about the rhyme scheme but I do have a vivid memory of hearing the song for the first time. I'm almost certain that Peace (Bruce Murdoch) did a powerful open D or D modal version of this song in his sets circa 1965 - 1967. It was one of his big numbers along with Love One Another and Walking Down The Line.

Bruce, is my memory deceiving me?

Subject: RE: Wild Mountain Thyme - Why doesn't it rhyme
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:17 AM

WHO CARES IT'S A LOVELY SONG