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Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)

The Shambles 17 May 99 - 02:59 PM
Bert 17 May 99 - 03:03 PM
LEJ 17 May 99 - 03:14 PM
katlaughing 17 May 99 - 03:17 PM
danl 17 May 99 - 03:38 PM
The Shambles 17 May 99 - 04:34 PM
Penny S. 17 May 99 - 04:43 PM
katlaughing 17 May 99 - 05:19 PM
katlaughing 17 May 99 - 05:19 PM
Matthew B. 17 May 99 - 05:29 PM
Sandy Paton 17 May 99 - 05:32 PM
folk1234 17 May 99 - 06:05 PM
Art Thieme 17 May 99 - 06:19 PM
Art Thieme 17 May 99 - 06:21 PM
Banjer 17 May 99 - 06:59 PM
The Shambles 17 May 99 - 07:38 PM
Jeri 17 May 99 - 08:56 PM
John Hindsill 17 May 99 - 10:03 PM
Bewildered in Denver 17 May 99 - 10:54 PM
campfire 18 May 99 - 12:17 AM
katlaughing 18 May 99 - 12:32 AM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 12:41 AM
Charlie Baum 18 May 99 - 12:54 AM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 01:17 AM
Art Thieme 18 May 99 - 02:43 AM
Tony Burns 18 May 99 - 06:39 AM
katlaughing 18 May 99 - 09:11 AM
Sheye 18 May 99 - 10:37 AM
Jon W. 18 May 99 - 11:13 AM
kb 18 May 99 - 11:59 AM
Allan C. 18 May 99 - 12:09 PM
Penny S. 18 May 99 - 12:18 PM
Bert 18 May 99 - 12:23 PM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 01:11 PM
kb 18 May 99 - 01:48 PM
campfire 18 May 99 - 02:06 PM
LEJ 18 May 99 - 02:21 PM
Bert 18 May 99 - 02:50 PM
Charlie Baum 18 May 99 - 03:18 PM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 05:05 PM
Penny S. 18 May 99 - 05:31 PM
reggie miles 18 May 99 - 06:27 PM
Matthew B. 18 May 99 - 06:36 PM
The Shambles 18 May 99 - 06:45 PM
Joe Offer 18 May 99 - 07:16 PM
Art Thieme 18 May 99 - 09:25 PM
alison 18 May 99 - 09:59 PM
WyoWoman 18 May 99 - 10:20 PM
Rick Fielding 19 May 99 - 12:18 AM
lloyd61 19 May 99 - 12:44 AM
campfire 19 May 99 - 12:54 AM
Lonesome EJ 19 May 99 - 01:04 AM
ddw 19 May 99 - 01:49 AM
Charlie Baum 19 May 99 - 02:11 AM
Steve Parkes 19 May 99 - 03:32 AM
Roger the zimmer 19 May 99 - 04:27 AM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 19 May 99 - 04:40 AM
hank 19 May 99 - 08:47 AM
Allan C. 19 May 99 - 08:53 AM
kb 19 May 99 - 10:03 AM
Art Thieme 19 May 99 - 11:08 AM
Bert 19 May 99 - 11:12 AM
kb 19 May 99 - 11:30 AM
Penny S. 19 May 99 - 12:43 PM
SeanM 19 May 99 - 01:03 PM
Rick Fielding 19 May 99 - 05:35 PM
katlaughing 19 May 99 - 07:20 PM
BK 19 May 99 - 09:55 PM
John Hindsill 19 May 99 - 10:46 PM
Allan C. 20 May 99 - 06:50 AM
Rick Fielding 20 May 99 - 07:45 AM
John in Brisbane 20 May 99 - 07:46 AM
Wolfgang 20 May 99 - 08:51 AM
kb 20 May 99 - 10:06 AM
annamill 20 May 99 - 12:35 PM
kb 20 May 99 - 08:42 PM
katlaughing 20 May 99 - 09:00 PM
John in Brisbane 21 May 99 - 12:21 AM
Mark Roffe 21 May 99 - 02:07 AM
Penny S. 21 May 99 - 02:33 AM
catspaw49 21 May 99 - 02:59 AM
MudGuard 21 May 99 - 03:41 AM
Allan C. 21 May 99 - 06:59 AM
hank 21 May 99 - 09:18 AM
Allan C. 21 May 99 - 10:11 AM
Rick Fielding 21 May 99 - 11:24 AM
The Shambles 21 May 99 - 11:31 AM
bbc 21 May 99 - 05:03 PM
Fadac 21 May 99 - 05:20 PM
The Shambles 21 May 99 - 08:03 PM
bbc 22 May 99 - 08:41 AM
Cuilionn 22 May 99 - 09:43 AM
The Shambles 22 May 99 - 09:57 AM
bbc 22 May 99 - 01:46 PM
Perdition express 22 May 99 - 02:05 PM
Rick Fielding 22 May 99 - 02:30 PM
Penny S. 22 May 99 - 09:07 PM
hank 24 May 99 - 09:37 AM
Steve Latimer 25 May 99 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Rich 07 Mar 01 - 10:44 AM
wdyat12 07 Mar 01 - 11:58 AM
wysiwyg 07 Mar 01 - 12:09 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 01 - 12:42 PM
Art Thieme 07 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM
Allan C. 07 Mar 01 - 12:44 PM
Don Firth 07 Mar 01 - 03:59 PM
katlaughing 07 Mar 01 - 04:03 PM
catspaw49 07 Mar 01 - 04:43 PM
Art Thieme 07 Mar 01 - 05:14 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 01 - 05:29 PM
mousethief 07 Mar 01 - 06:58 PM
Art Thieme 07 Mar 01 - 07:34 PM
Callie at work 07 Mar 01 - 07:40 PM
The Shambles 08 Mar 01 - 05:03 AM
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Subject: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 May 99 - 02:59 PM

The best way I have found, to discourage un-welcome, would be converters, is to invite them to undress and join the Coven meeting currently going on in my garden.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Bert
Date: 17 May 99 - 03:03 PM

I just politely say "I'm not interested, thank you" and close the door. It's always worked so far.

Next time I'm feeling in a frivolous mood though, I'll try your method. Sounds fun.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: LEJ
Date: 17 May 99 - 03:14 PM

Oh hell...I thought this was thread about the kind of doorknockers that you buy in Dartmoor and are shaped like little gargoyles.

And not just those. I noticed while in England that many of the housewives were blessed with lovely knockers, and I made it a point to complement them on their knockers whenever I had a chance. While the shiny new ones stand out quite attractively, the older ones are also fascinating and have held their value quite well.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 99 - 03:17 PM

Sham, I love it! Though I usually use the same method Bert does. During an election year, I post a sign on my door which says "STOP! Do not leave any literature. This means all politicians, salespeople, and religious persons!"

Worked fairly well.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: danl
Date: 17 May 99 - 03:38 PM

the best way to unsettle religious 'doorknockers' that my friends and i have found is to invite them in, offer them some tea and then systamatically disprove everything they tell you. tee hee hee!

the other one i heard on a radio program YEARS ago and unfortunatly never rememberd the name of had a character saying ' well i did let jesus into my life but he couldnt stand the state of my flat. now will you please excuse me, i have some hot cockerals blood on the boil...'

im curious LEJ, exactly how many black eyes did you aquire while in our fair country?

love ivy b*


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 May 99 - 04:34 PM

Bert

Your polite method does work but they tend to take you at your word and return another time. My new method tends to have a permanent effect.

There is a disturbing tendency here to knock at your door accompanied by their young children, which does complicate things, a clever move that. Is it just here that this happens?


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 May 99 - 04:43 PM

The most un-nerving thing I've met was when they turned up for the first time in a very long time the day after a neighbour had committed suicide, ready to build their speil on that subject, and when I asked them specifically and strongly not to call on her family, they did so. I've not felt so forgiving about them since.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:19 PM

My dad used to basically growl at them and threaten to get out his six-shooter if they didn't get off the property...it was another era.

I vowed never to have another religious debate in 1973, when my then brother-in-law told me I was going to hell because i didn't belong to hisc church! Roger likes to toy with them though. Just recently, to my dismay, he invited a couple of them in. After a bit of Zen Buddhism and a few Wiccan exchanges, they left in a rather bewildered state Poor things. He talks louder, has studied longer, and believes he knows everything on certain days of the week.

I am mindful, though, that we may have a few doorknockers or relatives of same here at the Mudcat, so do not mean to offend. I just do NOT like some trying to shove there's off on to me!

kat


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:19 PM

My dad used to basically growl at them and threaten to get out his six-shooter if they didn't get off the property...it was another era.

I vowed never to have another religious debate in 1973, when my then brother-in-law told me I was going to hell because i didn't belong to hisc church! Roger likes to toy with them though. Just recently, to my dismay, he invited a couple of them in. After a bit of Zen Buddhism and a few Wiccan exchanges, they left in a rather bewildered state Poor things. He talks louder, has studied longer, and believes he knows everything on certain days of the week.

I am mindful, though, that we may have a few doorknockers or relatives of same here at the Mudcat, so do not mean to offend. I just do NOT like some trying to shove their's off on to me!

kat


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Matthew B.
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:29 PM

Rodney Dangerfield once complained: I don't get any respect... last week the Jehovah's Witnesses told me that they weren't interested!

But if you need a child-safe way to "drive them off," just say through the closed door that you're dripping naked from the shower. The kids won't be "corrupted" since, presumably, even they know that people shower naked, and the grownups will head for the next address because they're either too disgusted or too turned on by the thought of you that way and want to direct their minds back to their saintly cause.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 May 99 - 05:32 PM

We had a f riend in Vermont who used to invite them in and ask if they believed in "sacrifice." Their response, of course, was "Certainly!" "Human sacrifice?" he would ask. Then he would proceed to read aloud from Leviticus, which is not really about human sacrifice, but does go on at some length about how to sacrifice goats because "the odor of the blood is pleasing to the Lord." Kinda put 'em off their stride, that did.

Now, I just tell 'em I'm a heathen, willing to worship the sun as the ultimate provider of life on our planet, but that's as far as I'm willing to go. They usually leave without argument. Remember, though, these people are truly convinced that they are doing you a favor, inviting you to qualify for eternal life! It's hard to be rude to someone who is honestly trying to save you from the eternal fires, isn't it?

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: folk1234
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:05 PM

Ya' gotta be careful. Initial impressions may be misleading. Short, but true, story: About a year ago our (very backward) county was about to have its 3rd "liquor by the drink" petition in the past 5 years. The previous two failed. Local churches, and other forces for good and against the devil were actively opposing this petition and were aggressively engaged in voter solicitation efforts. A very small, pretty,(blue hair, spring time dress, cute bonnet, you know, very church-like) and quite elderly lady came to our door saying she would like us to sign a petition. Well my past greetings to such solicitors have ranged from crude to rude to sometimes maginaly tolerant. However, I simply could not be rude to this charming lady, so I said, "I'm very sorry, but I believe we would be on the opposing side to your petition." She responded, "You mean you don't want liquor by the drink?" I then welcomed her in and both my wife and I signed her petition. Before she left, we spoke of good food, fine wines, and lamented over the long distances we had to travel to enjoy such pleasures. Subsequently, we became very close friends with this charming lady and her husband, who 30 years ago was the owner and editor of our local newspaper. They have been a wonderful source of local history and folk lore, and we have enjoyed many evenings of social drink, dining, and story telling with these beautiful people. For once I was a proper gentelman and it paid off.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:19 PM

I just ask if she'd like to go into the bedroom and screw!

I do that 'cause she's my wife, Carol.

Love ya guys,

Art


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:21 PM

Geoffrey Dahmer had some unique door knockers from what I've heard.

Art


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Banjer
Date: 17 May 99 - 06:59 PM

I once heard that if you make a chalk outline drawing of a body (like the police do in a homicide investigation) in front of the door and toss some tracts and leaflets around most will not knock!


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 May 99 - 07:38 PM

Sandy

I find it hard to believe that you could be rude to anybody, but that is the point really. We all know that it is difficult to be rude, face to face with a stranger, we have to overcome years of conditioning and that is exactly why they come to our doors, especially with children in tow.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 99 - 08:56 PM

Honestly, I don't like people who try to sell religion any more than those who call uninvited and try to get me to switch phone service, but I try not to be rude to anyone.

I just tell them I'm not interested, smile, and let them give me pamphlets. They leave just as quickly, and nobody's day is ruined.

Les Barker has done a really funny song about this.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: John Hindsill
Date: 17 May 99 - 10:03 PM

Usually I point to the Mezuzah on the door (which they should have seen); if that doesn't work I tell them that I am Jewish and not interested; if that still doesn't work, I sweetly but firmly say, "Please don't make me be rude by closing the door while you are talking." Most usually works.

Mrs. John had a near evangelical experience when a lady in her art class kept pressing Messianic Judaism tracts on her. When she demurred, the lady decided not to be be her friend any longer.

A couple of weeks ago in my cardiac rehab session, a born again minister was telling me that his congregants were going to learn Jewish songs & dances from four [count 'em, 4] Jews for Jesus. I allowed as we had a name for Jews for Jesus in my circle...'Christian'. "Mm, yes." he said, and quickly moved on to the next apparatus.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Bewildered in Denver
Date: 17 May 99 - 10:54 PM

Hey, you guys are speaking in a disparaging manner of what I've done for a living for the last 25 years! Tonight, I had to yell over the fence at somebody's house because the people wouldn't open their front door. These Denver people seem to like their guns, so I'm a little bit careful here. I went to a folk concert the other night, and got a lecture from the guy next to me about the necessity of handguns. Ah, the life of this door-to-door bureaucrat has been perilous at times. Next time the doorbell rings, be sympathetic. It just could be poor old Joe Offer.
-Joe Offer, gumshoe-


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: campfire
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:17 AM

I have a 120 pound Lab/Dane cross that does most of my discouraging for me. He's really quite friendly, but he does like to "announce" guests. If I don't want to talk to them, I neglect to tell him to go lie down. He stands in the doorway barking his fool head off, I pretend I can't control him, and not many stick around very long.

It probably isn't fair ro give DOGS a bad name, but it is quite effective.

campfire


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:32 AM

Oh, well, Campfire, how fitting, since Dog spells God backwards...some poetic justice there, eh?

Joe, nice to hear from you, but somehow I don't think you've been passing out books by the Holy Pappy, as my dad says, when you go knocking on doors.**Big Grin**

Denver didn't used to be so fanatical! Or are you just pulling our collective leg? Isn't it about time for you to go back to California? And, how was the folkconcert?

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:41 AM

I Absolutely can NOT force myself to be rude to any door to door folks - religious or otherwise. Now I hear a small chorus in the background murmuring: "about once a week you can get pretty sarcastic right here!" It's different though. Blatant insensitivity delivered in an abrupt manner really gets me steamed, and I'm sure my sarcasm goes over the head of the intended recipient...but the worst that can be said about door to door folks is that they can be persistant.
I sold encyclopedias for one day and I know what it's like to get told "perform an anitomical impossibility on yourself." Nope, when it's the "Witnesses" I just explain that my personal spirituality doesn't require a "middleman", but if I've got the time I'll ask them in, and confuse them even more!


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:54 AM

It was in the early '80s when a couple of Witnesses came to our door, and my roommate and I were having a quiet afternnon that needed livening up, so we thought we'd invite them in and try to convert them to Judaism. We had quite a library at our disposal to disprove their interpretations: everything from Thomas Aquinas to Thomas Merton to a complete Babylonian Talmud. After a few hours, they left, and they were questioning some of the fundamental(ist) tenets of their faith. Was it the requirements of circumcision that prevented their conversion to Judaism? We mentioned that my roommate knew all the Rabbinic requirements but that he had a unsteady hand when it came to slicing bread.

-Charlie Baum, always in search of a good theological debate


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:17 AM

Charlie, I ain't a "Witness" but I'd come to your house for the intelligent conversation. Now where can I get my hands on a couple of "Watchtowers?"


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:43 AM

Me again folks. In my previous post I was trying to be facetious as hell. I'm rather amazed and a bit hurt by the vindictiveness of some of my favorite folks here in this thread. My wife of 32 years, Carol, is a Jehovah's Witness and I'm an atheist Jew. We agree to disagree. Her religion bugs the hell out of me, but the Witnesses are some of the nicest people I know---as long as we don't talk religion. (They know to leave me alone where that topic is concerned.) Some people just have an amazing need for certainty in their lives. One thing that the Witnesses are is certain. Their rule book, the Bible, has all the answers as they see it. Personally, I've always felt that in the game of life the directions don't come on the box! But fragile folks need to KNOW---it's something that gives them a bit of control over stuff that I'm content to see as simply a mystery that I may never have an answer for. Just is what is--as Gordon Bok has often said to me.

2 years ago, while recovering from one of 7 surgeries I've had in the last decade, I was given blood thinners to lessen the chance of blood clots. That caused (from my point of view) a situation similar to Catspaw's; I got 12 pints of blood before the thing got cotterized and plugged. All the time I was in the hospital the Witnesses took care of Carol and came to visit me in the ICU often. They did that even though I was getting tons o' blood. Some of you might know that somewhere in the damn Bible it says don't take in blood---so they reject all of that. Drives me nuts---as I said. They were always visiting me all the time I was getting the transfusions that I'm sure offended them but that I'm sure saved my life. And I'll always defend their right to voice and practice their beliefs---as off the mark as my common sense tells me they are.

I mean no disrespect to you people. I just think that live & let live is a better way to go about things like this than starting this quite useless thread. Hell, no, it isn't easy sometimes dealing with people with whom we differ. But as Stan Rogers so eloquently said speaking of another difficult thing to make work---marriage, "What the hell's it (life) for." It's the difficulty that makes it so damn interesting. I'd be bored otherwise.

And I paraphrase Stan's song once more: I want to see Carol's smiling face 45 years from now!

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Tony Burns
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:39 AM

Thanks for bringing some sense here Art. I too have been troubled by the hostility voiced in this thread. It is also a little amazing that some folks claim to try to convert the doorknockers. Exactly the thing they object to that brought the person to the door in the first place.

There is no need to be any ruder than closing the door (or hanging up the phone) and only if the person won't take a polite refusal.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 99 - 09:11 AM

Dear Art,

I did not want to "out" you or Carol in this thread. I guess I should have been a bit less circumspect in my earlier posts about Mudcatters being related to Witnesses.

I am sorry for any hurt I may have caused. Please forgive me.

kat


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Sheye
Date: 18 May 99 - 10:37 AM

I think I started this...

A polite "I'm not interested thank you" usually does work. My beef, be it religion, vacuum cleaner salesman, or one of the 8000 charity workers, is that if you come to my time, a "no thank you" shall be deemed adequate dismissal as I did not invite you. Any further attempt on the part of the visitor will be met by less than gracious conduct on my part.

Lately the charities have been the worse. I have chosen to limit my donations to 4 charities. I say no to the others, and they start with, "don't you care about...??"

I got caught in the Denver airport a few months ago. I noticed a fellow perched beside a statue, in almost the same position, and laughingly told him that if he held his hand like so, they'd be a matched set. He asked me if I was flying and handed me a booklet about how that was a really bad idea, and a Watchtower. I handed it back, but wasn't quite in the same spirit I had been in.

Joe, can you identity a 30 gauge by the barrel? In my younger years, I worked for Surface Rights one summer. My job was to assess environmental damage done to farmland by oil companies. (In Alberta, a farmer owns the top 6 inches of the land only.) I stopped by one farm that I hadn't phoned ahead of time and was met by a shotgun at the door. It was homecountry so I quickly spurted out, "I'm (my dad)'s daughter! He put the gun down and apologized profusely, and insisted I stay for breakfast. That's not the best way to start a day, a heavy breakfast and all!

Sheye


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Jon W.
Date: 18 May 99 - 11:13 AM

Gee, I thought Kat was trying to "out" me. I've got a number of nephews, first cousins once removed, and young friends serving LDS missions. Of course things have changed a lot and they don't do nearly as much door-knocking as I did 25 years ago when I was on my mission. The point is, there are those who are searching for something in their spiritual lives, and for those of us who feel we have something to offer them, door-knocking is one (very inefficient) way of finding them. I've never found it necessary (since my own mission) to be rude to the Jehovah's Witnesses - they are sincere in their beliefs, I am sincere in mine, and we leave it at that. The ones who worry me are the exploited young kids who are selling candy or cheap merchandise for outrageous prices and retaining a very small bit (if any) of the high profits. Also telemarketers - thank heavens for caller ID.

Jon W.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: kb
Date: 18 May 99 - 11:59 AM

I dislike having someone show up at my door or call me on the phone, trying to persuade me that I need what they have to offer, but God told us to go out and spread the Gospel to all nations. I'm not good at 'doorknocking' but I believe that God is leading me to spread 'Christianity' another way. But, as a Christian, I certainly feel outnumbered here. Today is my first time ever on a chat line, hence my total ineffectiveness.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:09 PM

"Inefficient" is totally correct. Anyone who has done any doorknocking knows how inefficient it is. It is like telemarketing: a game of numbers. You bang on this many doors or make that many phone calls and you get this percentage of positive responses. People who have done it for awhile usually figure out that being an ass with a prospect doesn't pay off. Unfortunately, a large number of the folks doing charity collecting, religious information dissemination, or candy selling, etc. are not professionals or haven't done this regularly. They are learning as they go - often at your expense. But it also costs them something. It is VERY difficult to not take a refusal (no matter how polite; no matter how rude) personally. It can eat at you. It can demoralize you. It can sometimes really hurt. My heart goes out to those poor "gluttons for punishment". I have done a little door-to-door and a little telemarketing. Most recently I had a part time job as a telemarketer. I quit because I just couldn't bring myself to twist the truth to sell the overpriced crap I was offering. While my sympathy exists for them, I still have no compunction about slamming a door or hanging up on someone who doesn't hear "No." the first time.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:18 PM

I know I implied that there was some insensitivity involved in one JW visit. Against that I have to say that the members I know personally are good people, and very generous with their time. They do occasionally bring up the subject, and I have read through some of the literature. Some of their ideas are very odd, and the teachings are very much opposed to other churches having anything pleasing to God in them. I was once accosted outside the Quaker Meeting House by two dear ladies from the Kingdom Hall next door, and I did try to persuade them to take some of our leaflets in exchange for theirs, so they would understand our position, but they told me that they were forbidden to read other churches' literature. One of the better things I have noticed about them is that they do not dwell on hell as a way to bring people to salvation. I suppose the basic problem is that they do seem to pick on times to call when it is inconvenient, and it is so difficult to end the conversation politely.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Bert
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:23 PM

Well welcome aboard KB. Here, you will find folks who will disagree with you on just about any subject under the sun, often just for the hell of it. You probably feel outnumbered because this is nominally a folk music site and religion is not our normal topic of discussion. However, you will find that Mudcateers (that's us) are basically good people. So stay if it's love and friendship that you want, there's plenty of that for all. But, if your primary interests are promoting your brand of religion then you might find that our wide open tolerance is too much for you.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:11 PM

Art, I'm truly surprised at your reaction to this thread. When I first joined Mudcat I was (like most I gather) a little timid at posting anything outside the realm of guitar chords or what kind of mandolin to buy. It was reading YOUR postings that convinced me that a little ascerbic humour would not be immediate grounds for expulsion.
This thread has followed a pretty predictable line for any non-musical-somewhat controversial Mudcat discussion. It's been funny, educational, passionate, edgy, and in general all the things that make the "music only" folks throw out an insult or two and then run for the hills. Among all our community you are the absolute last person I would have expected to use the term "this quite useless thread". My first introduction to the "non record making Art" was the infamous "Condom thread", and in this one here you've made reference to "screwing" and "Dahmer!" Something doesn't add up.
Many folks here have gotten some of their personal styles tweaked, (and sometimes in a pretty heavy-handed way)but they usually bounce back with a better argument, and so it goes until everyone loses interest and goes on to some "Is Dylan folk?" thread. You imply that the "thread shouldn't even have been started", and that just seems so inconsistant with what I've read in so many of your postings.
When you say "her religion bugs the hell out of me", but that they're nice people "when they're not talking religion", who would disagree? The problem for some obviously is that when people come to the door (repeatedly) and ONLY talk religion, who sees the "nice?" I guess like you, "it bugs the hell out of them" and they react.
Art, I've grown to have a tremendous amount of respect for you (and your tongue-in-cheek approach to the things we have little control over)and I'm well aware of the high esteem you've earned from the Mudcat, so questioning your reaction to this thread is a might scary.(makes me feel like a new-comer again) Even while thinking about this I've noticed folks have jumped in saying "sorry Art", and it's sorely tempting to just "erase and forget it". However, one of the things I've learned here is "think it over, and if it's what you really feel - say it." If ever I've met a community that can deal with a "live and let live" philosophy, it's this one - and that includes the posters in this thread. Strikes me they were only asking the same courtesy from their visitors.

If you're still talking to me, lemme tell you about the great "postal Massacree" of Kingston Road. Our "mailing problem" seems to have begun and ended with the little red mail box immediately in front of our house. Now any intelligent person would take the time to go to the post office 2 miles away and let them affix their Govt. approved stamps to packages and then send them. Not us. Much easier to put on (what we thought was proper) postage stamps and walk ten feet. I won't go into details (too boring) but I may have blown a couple of festivals this summer, as well as having stuff not get to you and a couple of others. It's infuriating, and I have to go to the central office in a few days, where , if I'm lucky, they may find the missing packages (about eight in all) if I'm lucky. You'll get your album. I just may not be alive by the time it happens>
Rick


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: kb
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:48 PM

I wish Jesus could be as important to everyone as He is to me, but I know He isn't. I'm not a pushy person, I've brought attention to Him, it's up to each of us how we respond. I hope no one here will dislike me. I am indeed interested in music as it was the lyrics pages that led me here and if I may, let me add that Hank Williams and Johnny Cash are my favorite singers of all time, if that does any good. Forgive me if that is drifting off the subject and I'll try to not be a 'cyber-doorknocker' or 'cyber-pest'.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: campfire
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:06 PM

Well said, Rick.

Art, it's not necessarily any particular religious or sales or whatever group. It's people who come to MY door, interupting MY time, to sell/give/whatever ME something I don't WANT.

The little waif who stands on my porch with sad eyes until I find some $5 trinket in her box of junk for sale (but can't tell me what I'm supporting by making a purchase) is equally disturbing as the Nazarene (yes, we've got them, too)who won't believe that I might have my own road to heaven.

If I wanted lightbulbs, I would go to the store and buy them; if I felt a burning need to change religions, I'd visit several area churches until I found one that meets my needs.

The few hours a week that I'm at home, I'd like to spend doing the things that make me, me. Not defending my political, religious, or economical view points. If "doorknockers" would accept an "I'm sorry, I'm not interested" and leave, or respect "No Solicitations, Please" signs, perhaps the world would be a better place.

campfire


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: LEJ
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:21 PM

kb...don't worry, we know that you were just expressing your feelings...and that's OK! I wouldn't waste my time trying to win many religious converts on the Mudcat, though, unless you want to open a thread for a reasonable discussion about it. The glue that holds this very diverse group together is music, and you'll find that next to that comes argument ,humor and a unique kind of respect for each other and our feelings and opinions. Welcome to Mudcat!

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Bert
Date: 18 May 99 - 02:50 PM

KB, Hank Williams and Johnny Cash are a couple of my favourites too.

As you have probably gathered I'm not a religious person. I did love Johnny & June singing 'Far side banks of Jordan' though - a great love song.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 18 May 99 - 03:18 PM

Sorry if anyone took offense at my somewhat (well, very!) flippant discussion of an incident a decade and a half ago, but what actually occurred was a wonderful free-ranging theological discussion. It's just that my roommate and I expected our guests to have the same open mind to Biblical interpretation that they expected us to have. And as they offered each of their interpretations, we countered with counterinterpretations from the great religious minds of history, from Ezra and Jeremiah to Hillel and Shamai to the Nicene Coucil and Thomas Aquinas to Maimonides and Rashi to Thomas Merton and Harvey Cox to Emil Fackenheim and Abraham Joshua Heschel. Perhaps they came thinking they may have had all the answers. We hoped that by the time they left, they'd realize that we had all the questions. And a religious approach that thinks questions are sometimes better than answers.

It was actually a good-natured, wonderful examination of lots of religious tenets.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:05 PM

Kb, don't get scared off by our tangents. I'm a life-long theological questioner. When I get the answers that make sense to ME, I'll stop questioning - maybe. There's one thing I'll never question however, The power of the music of Hank Williams. He said with few words and fewer chords, what thousands have tried to say in their music.
Welcome


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:31 PM

Kb, I wish I'd read your last post above first, you come over completely differently. I think you'll find, if you look through some of the recent threads, how much the love of God moves in the people here.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: reggie miles
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:27 PM

Campfire, I couldn't agree more. When confronted by these traveling bands in the past I've tried all manner of reason to explain why I'd just as soon not see them darken my doorstep again but they don't seem to get it. They've even gone so far as to say that their elders may not give them permission to not come back. After that I guess I became a prime target for them. Maybe they figured if they could win me over they'd really have accomplished a miraculous feat. I understand why they do what they do but how many times must I relate or debate with members of their faith? The same group seems to send various different members to my door alone or in pairs. The paired teams more often than not consist of a young person, who does most of the dialog, with an elderly person, aparently there to observe and help if things get sticky. I get the feeling I'm being used in a sort of training exercise and if so, I feel I should be properly monetarily compensated for my time and energy. Hey, if I'm going to get run through the theological ringer as part of this process but it means a few extra bucks on the side, I say, hit me with your best shot. You know I might just have something here. Those folks should just hire a few households as test subjects. Pay them a salary to be there to talk to when they need to train some newbies. I'll make sure to bring that idea up to them the next time they drop by.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Matthew B.
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:36 PM

Ahem. This thread started out so nicely and became such a downer. Lighten up, okay? Nobody was telling anybody here that the JW beliefes are wrong or bad. We were just sharing anecdotes on common experiences of dealing with the awkward situations incurred when others try to invade our privacy with their (sincerely held) beliefs.

Sheesh. We all have our own opinions. For example, I happen to think that a Jew who accepts Christ as his savior is (to coin a phrase) a "Christian" -- and calling himself a "Jew For Jesus" is sort of like me calling myself a "Vegetarian for Meat" But hey, he has every right to call himself whatever he wants.

Ah, but I do digress. (couldn't help it)

But the main point is this: since this is Mudcat -- which is a kind of sacred place for me because of our shared love for music (no offense) -- why don't we write a song about it? (sneaky grin)

Besides, if you look at the top of this page, you'll see a joke I posted about Jehovah's Witnesses... whisch was told to me by a Jehovah's Witness. So I think we can use stuff like this for bringing us closer together, by letting us share a good laugh.

End of sermon.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 99 - 06:45 PM

Amen


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 99 - 07:16 PM

Well, in 25 years on knocking on doors, I've had guns pointed at me only once - and that time, I had called in advance for an appointment. When I finally convinced the people that I was a government investigator and meant them no harm, they invited me in and we had a great time talking about all sorts of things once we finished with business.
There was one old guy who was naked from the waist down when he opened his door - for a moment, I actually forgot what I was going to say. I've had the police called on me at least twice, and I've encountered all sorts of nasty dogs and nasty people. Many times, people just try to pretend they're not home. That's really frustrating, because I have to keep going back until they finally answer the door and tell me they don't want to talk to me.
I have to say that in all my years of going door-to-door, I can't understand why people can get so annoyed at me for simply ringing their doorbell. I get unannounced visitors at my door less than twice a month, and I like to stop and chat with them for a moment or two. Whenever I have people come to my door, or when I go to theirs, I challenge myself to try to make their day a little nicer. Usually, if I can get people to take a moment, they find they enjoy being interviewed by a government investigator.
I suppose that I could be found guilty of proselytizing on the job. I rarely mention my religion unless people ask, but my beliefs require me to be kind to everyone I meet. I find I have a much stronger effect on people that way than I would have by preaching.
Now, if only those people would open the blankety-blank door!
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 May 99 - 09:25 PM

People, that's what makes horse races---differences of opinion. I suspect I'm reacting to visualizing my wife, who is quite ill, having the "funny stuff" described here inflicted on her when she knocks on some door. The best part of what she does is that, to paraphrase again, it keeps her ON the street. :-)

Rick, sorry if I've seemed inconsistent and been a disappointment to ya. Lately I guess I'm just not a people pleaser. One persons joke hits the other guy over the head with a 2x4. But it does get his attention. The infamous condom thread you mentioned was a failed attempt by me to point out that we were getting away from music. There was no other motivation for starting that one. When it became obvious that many here wanted to go with the talk radio format I decided if I couldn't beat 'em, I'd join 'em. So I put in my two cents when the urge came over me or when I thought something I knew or had been through would be of interest. Could be I should start an ethnic joke thread. ;-) But that might bring in too much adverse reaction from potentially violent folks. Telling the funny things we've done to Witnesses is safe---like giving the finger to someone from the relative safety of your car; But I doubt the J.W.s would react with road/door rage.

Affectionately,

Art


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: alison
Date: 18 May 99 - 09:59 PM

Hi,

I'm usually polite to door knockers.... it's the ones who phone wanting to fix my roof or sort out my finances with their new wonderplan while I'm trying to serve dinner to my family who really drive me nuts............

I was throwing a frisbee for my dog on a deserted beach in Northern Ireland one afternoon when I noticed that I was being watched from the top of a cliff. He watched for a while, then he disappeared, and appeared again a few minutes later walking along the beach towards me. As he approached I saw that he was an absolute "honey" (NOI)... and thought this should be fun. It's not every day you meet a hunk on the beach, never mind get chatted up by one... So he came up and started talking about my dog, and the weather...... and then it happened. "I'm with the church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day saints, I'm here doing some missionary work.".......... talk about coming back down to earth with a bump. But before he got any further with his spiel I countered with.... "oh that's interesting, I've just finished doing an outreach for primary school kids." He didn't fancy challenging me then and disappeared very quickly back up to the cliff to where his wife an two toddlers had now appeared to wait for him.

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: WyoWoman
Date: 18 May 99 - 10:20 PM

Once, many years ago when the earth was young and so was I, I decided to make some money by selling Avon door-to-door. I hated the very thought of it, but was desperate, and worked very hard at putting on my "game face" every time I had to go out. I was careful not to go in homes that looked scary or in homes in which a man was the only one answering the door (sorry, guys, but we have to err on the side of caution).

One afternoon, however, I rang the bell and this little, old, wizened man came shuffling to the door. He seemed so eager for company and so happy to see me, I went ahead and entered the house when he invited me in. He proceeded to show me every photograph on his wall and tell me in LENGTHY detail about each person featured there. Finally, as I was taking my leave and trying hard to extricate myself from the situation, he drew my attention to yet another photo. I looked at it respectfully, curiously, for a second and as I did, he shuffled over, took careful aim and with his little, old barely functioning fingers, gave me a good pinch on me little arse.

I was surprised and put off, but when I got outside, I started laughing so hard I could barely stand up. I must've been a sight, stumbling down the sidewalk with my little Avon bag in my hand, laughing like a crazy woman, wiping tears from my eyes.

You just can't help but admire the life force...

kc


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 May 99 - 12:18 AM

Joe. Heather would open the door in a flash if she saw it was you out there. Me too actually. Don't think I've ever not answered or told someone to go away through the screen. Just too damn curious, I guess. It's currently election time around here and the candidates are out in full force. We listen to 'em, but we DO ask questions, and we let them know that we keep up with the issues. That usually changes their approach from auto-pilot to actually interesting. Funny thing is the moment you let them know that you intend to make your vote "count" they become far more candid. A couple of days ago Heather had several friends over when the "Green" Party candidate knocked. I answered and invited her in. She talked, answered questions and it felt like a mini-town meeting. She sure won't win, but she picked up six votes!

Art, thanks for responding. Sorry, I guess I missed the point entirely vis. the "condom thread"- I can be as thick as a brick at times. Thought it was just a "wicked" way of getting a great discussion going, with a bit of irony in regards to the "how old?" and "where does a ....?" etc threads. Well if you "couldn't beat 'em, so you joined em', you've done a hell of a job, and you fooled me. Don't know about "talk radio" though. I used to listen to "Rush" for my "dark side entertainment" and it sure sounded one-sided to me - unlike mudcat. Carol sounds like a gem. Tell her that the JWs got less flack than the "Corries" around these parts.
rick


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: lloyd61
Date: 19 May 99 - 12:44 AM

C.S Lewes never had to knock on doors, he had the power of the pen. We have our music to spread our message. Why take aim at others who are trying to get their message out the only way they know now. Lets spend a little more time thinking about our message and how we deliver it.

Lloyd


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: campfire
Date: 19 May 99 - 12:54 AM

Art, you hit it pretty well right on when you said "one man's joke hits another one like a 2 x 4". So we all have our "buttons" - and once in a while someone's is going to get pushed. Hopefully, not the same person's all the time. If everyone wanted to be sure not to hit anybody's buttons, we'd all have to shut up.

I've never not answered the door except when I actually was dripping naked, in the shower; or literally too sick to get up and answer it. And maybe once when I was "engrossed in personal activities" ;-).

But once I've answered the door, I still feel that I have the right to decide whether or not I want to buy a magazine or discuss the local elections with whomever rang the bell. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. And after I've said "I'm sorry, I can't this time", or "I'm sorry, I already have a church", if the person on my porch doesn't leave, who's the one being rude?

campfire


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 May 99 - 01:04 AM

It's interesting to think that some of the first door-knockers were Christ's Disciples. Apparently they got some fairly rough treatment too, since He advised them "If you go to a door and are rebuked, shake the dust from the doormat off your feet." Pretty good advice for any salesman- if you really believe in your product, you shouldn't be afraid of rejection. But you also need to know when someone is just flat NOT buying.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: ddw
Date: 19 May 99 - 01:49 AM

I agree that it's an easier life if we're polite to everyone -- doorknockers, telemarketers and all -- but there's a limit. When somebody insults me, I feel no compunction about giving them a blast and I consider anyone who shows up on my doorstep telling me he/she knows more about how I should lead my life than I do to be insulting me. How dare they tell me that I'm inferior because I don't believe in their god? I don't believe in any god at all, but I sure as hell don't go knocking on doors telling people there's any reason they shouldn't

For those who defend the doorknockers, just let me ask: Do you like to have your morals, your intelligence, your worthiness as a human being questioned by these people? They may think they have the right -- god-given or otherwise. I strongly disagree, but I'm always willing to make a deal with them: I won't bother them if they don't bother me.

ddw


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 19 May 99 - 02:11 AM

I should relate the story of the woman who came knocking on my door a few years ago trying to interest me into purchasing cable tv.

Now at this time, I was copying a record on to cassette tape for a friend, so my record player was going and hooked up to my cassette player. My computer was on in the other corner. Then "All Things Considered" came on NPR, but since my record player and cassette machine were occupying my usual speakers, I put on a Walkman radio with earphones. Then I needed to find out about airflights to T*******, so I called an airline on the telephone, but was placed on endless hold for more than half an hour.

Then comes the knock on my door. I am wearing radio headphones and have a phone to my other ear, but explain that it's all right--I'm on hold on the telephone (and the radio story of the moment wasn't particularly interesting). She sees the computer and the record player and the cassette machine and launches off into her spiel about cable television. I patiently let her finish, and then explained that I didn't own a television set, and had no plans to get one. She was incredulous, and found me eccentric, or perhaps just passing strange.

I inquired about cable radio, which they didn't offer. (Web Radio hadn't been invented yet!) But I took off my radio headphones, hung up the phone, and as she realized that she had nothing to sell me, we were able to spend a few minutes in a delightful conversation about media, life without television, and travel to T*****.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 May 99 - 03:32 AM

My grandfather had a very unconventional way of handling religious doorknockers: he'd invite them in and talk with them. Granddad was very religious - he was a Methodist - and could discuss, dispute or agree, as apropriate. He thought that with something as important as knowing God, you had a duty to show the rest of the world what t meant, by your own example at least. Knowing the bible inside out helped too. I think the knockers often went away having learned something!

Not that he was a straight-laced strict bible-thumper: he was great fun, and didn't subscribe to the notion that suffering is good for you; quite the opposite. We all inherited his sense of humour (excruciating puns a speciality) and some of us got his artistic skill, while others of us have to make do with the musical ability.

Ask me about the rest of the family sometime!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 19 May 99 - 04:27 AM

I'm afraid I don't respond to cold calling by phone or at the door. I just say "no thank you" and ring off/shut the door. Being naturally surly , that's polite for me, but then neither of us wastes time. Incidentally, the latest issue of the London "New Statesman" magazine has a cartoon tryptych on this very subject, using methods mentioned on this thread. Spooky or what?


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 19 May 99 - 04:40 AM

My doorknocker is atheist; but the doorbell has become so religious that it is now both a Jew and a Christian. Now people have to use the knocker all weekend.

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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: hank
Date: 19 May 99 - 08:47 AM

Accualy, EJ, The passage about shaking the dust from your feet refers to an entire city that is unwilling. This is a (symbolic) jesture that you would not want to place on a city if anyone belived. That beliver will have friends that won't belive, and you don't want to say something about anyones friends. I get the idea that shaking the dust from your feet was a rarely done thing. (I only recall reading about it once)

I don't know how much door knocking was done early on, but we do have record that the apposles would stand in the town square (equivelent, towns in those days often had a central place where the mayor would daily annonce the news, and the rest of the day anyone could use that place)


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 May 99 - 08:53 AM

An option might be to announce: "Please consider counting me among the swine and take your pearls elsewhere."


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: kb
Date: 19 May 99 - 10:03 AM

Yesterday, was my first time ever to wander onto a chat line, discussion link or thread, so I came in from perhaps the wrong side of town, but did meet a new friend. Thanks Bert, you impressed me. I need to make this short as I have a rather lenghty 'Doorknocker' story to pass on. I tell it about my uncle, although as far as I know it is fictional.

Early, one morning, just a little after 8 AM, as my uncle was finishing his second cup of coffee, there comes this 'little' knocking on his front door. Over and over, knock, knock, knock. Uncle drank down the last of the coffee, got up and walked to the front door and opened it up to find a little government man in a three piece business suit standing there holding a 'card' straight out and slightly up for my uncle to see. "This here card gives me the right to look at anything on your place that I want to and there ain't a thing you can do about it." My uncle said, "Look all you want, it's okay with me." With this Uncle went back to the kitchen and poured another cup of coffee. He had pretty near finished this off when he heard a small, frightened voice coming up to him from down below the hill, around about the barn. (Uncle lived on a farm at that time) He finished off his coffee, got up and started out toward the barn. As he neared the lot fence there on the side of the barn he spied this little government man running around and around the lot with Uncle's 2,400 pound Brangus bull two steps behind. The little man is hollering, 'Help me,help me, oh please mister help me." Uncle did, he said, "Show him your dern card" I hope I haven't mis-used this link by telling this story, but this would be one unique way to handle "Doorknockers' kb


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 May 99 - 11:08 AM

Guys, (all genders included),

One of the best "no trespassing" signs I ever saw was:

DO NOT RUN FROM DOG---SOMEONE WILL BE OUT TO HELP YOU !!!

That was in Chillicothe, Illinois right on the Illinois River. It's a beautiful day here in Illinois. And the river is reflecting every detail as if it were a mirror. Never did see it so calm...

KB, Is that story bull? Or was it no bull? If it was no bull, then the bull wasn't there actually and you're tellin' us a tall one. ;-)

Art


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Bert
Date: 19 May 99 - 11:12 AM

LOL KB, but the city won't let me keep livestock.

Bert


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: kb
Date: 19 May 99 - 11:30 AM

Me again, the bull story was probably just a story. I don't like being a door knocker because of the fear of doing more harm than good (and rejection, too) but also because of dogs inside. I've gotta eat, so in order to bring home grocery money I deliver mail and hate it when I have something to be signed for or too large for the box and first thing I hear when I knock or ring is the loud voice (be it barking or growling) of a dog inside. I've been attacked by a 'Pit' a 'Rotweiller' and once by a very large 'Great Dane' Fortunately in one of these cases the animal wasn't interested in lunch or was disciplined enough that he stopped at his master's first command. I did have to fight the 'pit' though.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 May 99 - 12:43 PM

Kb, I sympathise. I was once, while minding my own business in a public street, herded by two Alsatians (German Shepherds), hackles up, growling, very scary. It was just when there had been a few stories of deaths from savaging, too. I waited a few moments for the owner - I thought they were security from a building site. No owner. I waited a bit longer (ages!). I considered climbing a nearby brick gate post. I considered staring at them, but there were two of them, one each side. I considered grabbing the collars. No collars. I remembered what Odysseus did in the Odyssey, and sitting down. It seemed appropriate psychology, but I wasn't sure (it might have been Ithacan training), and felt pretty certain that the dogs didn't read Greek. No-one passed. (In a busy town). I decided that I should not radiate fear and adrenaline, thought about "perfect love casteth out fear", sent up a quick prayer, and started to walk on the way I had been going in a non-threatening manner, very slowly. The owner appeared and called them off. It's an odd thing, but when a teeny-tiny Yorkshire terrier yaps across the street, the owner makes profuse apologies. This one deliberately didn't see me. So I changed my destination to the police station. They must have had a word, as the dogs were not seen on the loose again.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: SeanM
Date: 19 May 99 - 01:03 PM

Good for you, Penny!

Talk about Thread creep, though...

Had a very similar experience with a Rottweiler in my home town. Ended up winning as I was bigger and scarier than it was. Stared it into submission, and then was chewed out by the owner for 'frightening his poor dog'. We exchanged a few choice words on the subjects of guard dogs being loose on public streets (and maybe one or two on the owner's matrimonial lineage), and I toddled on my happy way to have a few words with the local police.

M


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 May 99 - 05:35 PM

"Had a rotwieler, and his name was Blue.
Betcha five dollars he could eat you too.
Chew up your carcass, spit out the bones.
He's a whole lotta muscle and dog hormones.

Yo Blue, yer a good dog you.

just trying to put a bit of music in.
rick


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 99 - 07:20 PM

rick....you stole that from Art, didnja!!! Oh, well, his lyrics ARE a little different....huh, okay, nevermind!**BG**


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: BK
Date: 19 May 99 - 09:55 PM

Tried discussion; when younger & had time, it worked; this technique even sent a poor arctic circle native, just finishing training to go home as a missionary, off in tears (later felt guilty abt that, but some of my friends who were very religious sent him to me as a sort of joke & test for him, really poor idea..).

Now I have very little time & no patience for anyone - if they are grossly insensitive to my right as an American to choose my own beliefs & what I will listen to. (When I have time, may be anything - I'm a Unitarian now, no limits!)

Having said that, I must say a lot of good friends are very religious, & from various religions - Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, B'Hai, etc... I only desire that they give me my Rights as above. Very often, sweetie 'n me agree w/their moral stance on a wide variety of issues.

My wife & I think that we, like the Mudcat, are best when we are "tolerant" (I don't always like what that word SEEMS to imply, at times) - better yet, cherish the uniqueness - of a wide variety of people & viewpoints. It's the intolerant, grossly disrespectful proselytizing that gets my hackles up. - & also USING kids as tools... My jewish friends NEVER proselytize...

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: John Hindsill
Date: 19 May 99 - 10:46 PM

Just you wait BK. Some Reform Jewish groups are considering proselytizing. Hope it never happens. -- John


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Allan C.
Date: 20 May 99 - 06:50 AM

Whenever anyone asks me what religion I adhere to, I usually answer, "I'm a Confirmed Pedestrian." They often back away with questionmarks in their eyes. But at least they back away!


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 May 99 - 07:45 AM

My late (and missed) Dad used to say "Ricky" it's rude to ask a man (this was the fifties) about his politics, his religion, and his income!" Whoah! I wonder what he'd say about mudcat! He didn't know I'd become a musician, so he probably assumed I'd HAVE an income!


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 20 May 99 - 07:46 AM

Just to make sure that I don't discriminate in my prejudice, here's a complete list of dogma espoused by door knockers:

Regards John

Taoism: Shit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say: "Shit happens".
Buddhism: If shit happens, it's not really shit.
Islam: If shit happens, it's the will of Allah.
Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Hinduism: This shit happened in my last life too.
Protestantism: Shit happens cause you don't work hard enough.
Catholicism: Shit happens because you are bad.
Zen: What is the sound of one shit happening?
Moonies: Only happy shit happens.
Christian Science: Shit is in your mind.
Agnosticism: Maybe shit happens, maybe it doesn't.
Jehova's Witnesses: Let us in and we'll tell you why shit happens.
Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this shit.
Hare Krishna: Shit Happens, Shit Happens, Shit Shit Happens Happens, Shit Happens, Rama Rama.
Atheism: No shit.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:51 AM

Sorry, folks, for intruding this thread with a link to music, but I think some might like to read the recently posted The Knock-on-the-door-in-the-night Squad

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: kb
Date: 20 May 99 - 10:06 AM

John in Brisbane You may be right, but here's one you need to add to your list: kb says, "Eternity is forever and that's a long, long time." kb


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: annamill
Date: 20 May 99 - 12:35 PM

Hi,

Now I'm an Atheist and a firm believer in humanity and all kinds of life. This does not mean that I'm a murder or a pervert. In fact, I love the teachings of Christ and have more than once given my shirt to one who has stolen from me because obviously his need is greater than mine. I used to answer the door and be polite to JW people. I have tried to explain to them that on me it was totally wasted. I think the thing that really turned me off and made me curt was one phrase that curdled my stomach. I was told in no uncertain terms that my children, who at that time were 10 years and 2 years old, were filled with sin. Now maybe their idea of sin was different from mine, atheist that I am. I told them that that statement had made me very angry and I didn't want to speak tho them any longer. They continued. I became rude, which to me meant closing the door. Since that time, I've have never allowed a conversation to begin.

Interestingly enough, my daughter, Amy, who is 31 and has three children of her own is a born-again Christian. I allowed my children to make up their own minds about God. She and I have a truce. I respect her feelings, and she respects mine. Religion is not usually something we discuss.

My son, James, is an Atheist. He's not a murder or pervert either. At least I don't think he is!! Mothers are always the last to know, you know. ;-) He's beautiful to me.

This has become a very interesting thread and I just wanted to put in my two cents.

Annap


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: kb
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:42 PM

Being the atheist that you proclaim to be you aren't going to believe anything that I say, but here goes anyway: About your children having been accused of being filled with sin, according to the beliefs of Christianity, since Adam and Eve chose to sin, everyone alive save Jesus, has been filled with sin from birth until such time as each of us allows Jesus to free us of the guilt for that sin. Hey, you seem to be intelligent enough to understand the plan of salvation and I'm sure you have heard it over and over until you are rather sick of hearing of it. It seems that you just can't believe it. You have the right to believe anything that you believe and I don't believe that I, or anyone has the right to continue to badger you about it. I believe that we have the obligation to tell everyone about Jesus at least ONE TIME.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 May 99 - 09:00 PM

Yea, but you already didkb! Enough said.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 21 May 99 - 12:21 AM

For completeness I should add to the list:

KB View of Christianity: Shit happens at birth, but only Jesus can free us of this. People, other than Jesus, are free to handle the shit in any way they wish, but should be warned that there is only one brand of shit remover with a perpetual warranty.

Regards
John


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 21 May 99 - 02:07 AM

When I was young I was rude to Jehova's Witnesses a few times, but as I developed, I found that they were usually pretty nice people to chat with. Nowadays we usually enjoy each other's company and marvel at our acceptance of each other's differences, I take a Watchtower to read (there's usually something thought-provoking in there), and I usually offer my bathroom for a pit stop. I figure it's tough enough going to door-to-door and getting doors slammed in their faces for doing what they believe in, without having to deal with having to go pee at the same time. I figure that even if we don't practice the same details about how to have faith, we're still all just folks in this world together.

Mark Roffe


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 99 - 02:33 AM

Kb, I think you are going to get more listeners if you say what attracts you to Jesus, and what his friendship means to you than basing your argument on sin and the threat of hell. One of the points about eternity is that whatever it is, it is not any sort of time, so saying that it is a long one is beside the point. We cannot know what it is going to be like. You are supposed to tell us that, through Christ, we can know what God is like. He said that. And, fig trees aside, he was not someone who I sense was ready to write people off, or to set up what Rabbi Lionel Blue has called a concentration camp from which there is no exit. And, if I am wrong, and God is like that, then God is not worthy of love or worship. Which is not what I know in prayer. God has not drawn me by threats, but by love.
HTML tags closing bold </b> added. Put the slash before the b.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 May 99 - 02:59 AM

Well, I've read this sucker and I can't as yet figure if this is a thread that's going to hell or a thread about going to hell or about every salesman's personal hell, the cold call. But I do have a couple of comments anyway.

All the discussion about atheist/theist(JH) beliefs has had to remind some of us of the old saw:

A Philosopher is a blind man looking for an imaginary black cat in a dark room. The theologian finds the cat. The atheist comes along and also finds the cat, but declares it to be an imaginary and dead dog instead. The agnostic cannot find a light switch, figures what he can't see to be a bottomless chasm, throws in a can of catfood anyway, says "Screw It" and goes happily along still uninformed as to the unknowable.

I also find the witnesing types to be basically friendly and innocuous, and I have to thank them for one of my best lines. So often, we come up with a good line, but only a few minutes too late. 25 years ago, I had spent the day hiking with a close friend around Cumberland Falls and enjoyed a day filled with the best nature has to offer. As we approached our car in the parking lot, a couple of Witnesses came up with "WatchTowers" in hand and asked, "Do you want to read about Jesus?" I replied, "No thanks, I got Batman in the truck."

Telemarketers......either just say no and cut it off, or play with them awhile, and there's lots of fun things to do to a telemarketer. Just get them off their flow chart and you're all set. "We offer a complete basement dryout and deodorizing service." Really? I've got some odd smells, so maybe if I put down some fresh cement you could seal it and you know..... (The police may arrive wanting a look in your basement) OR..."What kind of windows does your home have?" Uh, glass? What kind do you have? "No, I mean, what frames your windows?" Well basically the walls do. "NO...What is the part around the glass that isn't wall?" I dunno, the guy didn't say. "What guy?" The guy who put them in. "You have new windows?" Yeah, why?.....and on and on you go. If you need ideas write me. I just love messing with their minds, tiny as they may be.

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: MudGuard
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:41 AM

Catspaw,
what a joy! You are back here!
Very glad to see you posting again!!!!!
Andreas


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Allan C.
Date: 21 May 99 - 06:59 AM

Catspaw, let me just say (perhaps for all of us) that it is so very good to "hear" your voice again!


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: hank
Date: 21 May 99 - 09:18 AM

Well kb, I have to disagree with your comment about adam and Eve. I won't argue that people are filled with sin, but it our choices. (ANd I don't think a two year old can make a choice to sin, though a en year old could. I would never accuse anyone of being a sinner unless I knew of a specific sin, AND by pointing out the sin I could help that person)

Just because Eve was the first to sin does not mean that if she hadden't we would all be living sin free in the garden of eden. She could make the wrong decisions, and her decendants could have done it too. Would they have? I don't know, but I tend to think that someplace along the way someone would have.

I have enough sins of my own, without adding on a sin that I wasn't even around for. Fortuntly I beleive in a loving God who doesn't want to give me the punishment I deserve, and made provision for that. (Rather strange way to do it, but I'm not complaining)

PS, yes I know that we are marked in some way, but that doesn't say marked with sin, rather marked because of the sin. We don't have to add that sin unto ourself.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Allan C.
Date: 21 May 99 - 10:11 AM

I feel compelled to paste here a post from the Funny Bumper Sticker thread: Adamant Agnostic - I don't know the answer and neither do you!

I think back to high school, when there were those in my class who somehow KNEW what they wanted to be in the adult world. I marveled at this phenomenon! How could these fifteen-year-olds possibly really know? I later realized that they didn't. Some of them actually followed the path of their choosing all the way into a career. Perhaps some of those were even happy because of it. Maybe this was the proof that they were somehow "right" at fifteen. I think of it more as a manifestation of blind faith.

I marvel similarly at those who are even more convinced that they have "the answer" to questions of religion/philosophy or whatever. I see a parallel here. Each of us can only see the present and the past. Most other things must be dealt with on faith. We each arrive at some point where we find for ourselves something in which to place that faith. It is an extremely personal choice. Yes, it is often influenced by one thing or another. But ultimately the question of where to place our faith is ours. Do we then have "the answer"? Yes. Or maybe, no. We each only know what we have decided to know.

I love to discuss possible choices with folks who know that "I don't know the answer and neither do you!" The rest can take a hike.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 May 99 - 11:24 AM

Alan, after reading the last few entries on the "our friend the gun" threads, I was about to go out to the garden and have a meaningful discussion with some large rocks, when the computer automatically sent me here (well I did push a button or two) and I saw your post. Thank you, voice of sanity.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 May 99 - 11:31 AM

John in Brisbane.

Thank you for your last contribution, I laughed so much it hurts and I am still chuckling.

What Catspaw says about thinking of the right thing to reply, usually too late, reminded me of wish that I used to think would be useful. It was for the ability to stop time, the instant after the original remark was made, to give you all the time in the world to consider your reply. Having then thought of the most brilliant response you could come up with, after consultation with reference books to check facts and quotations, you just click your fingers, time starts again and you deliver your answer...........But then what? I never really thought it through any further, but I suppose it could lead to trouble, couldn't it?

There was one occasion recently, when I did get it SO right at the time and it was an answer I gave to a tele-sales person. Poor soul (Apologies in advance to all who ply this trade). The conversation went something like this.

Salesperson: Hello, I am from ---- ---- and can I ask you just one question?
Me : Yes
Salesperson: Well, ......
Me : That was it....... Goodbye.
Salesperson: BUT!

I suspect that there may now be a change to the opening pitch?


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: bbc
Date: 21 May 99 - 05:03 PM

Hi, folks,

I read all the posts up to last night & I feel the need to add my thoughts. I think I'll just put 'em down, rather than trying to get fancy.

It is a basic tenet of some faiths that they are the only true way. If the adherents believe that, they have a responsibility to try to share that faith. Their goal is only to help & I don't think we should fault them for that. Refraining from answering the door or a simple "I'm not interested" would suffice.

Here at Mudcat, we are posting to a broad group. I was criticized once in the past for thinking before I post, but I will stand by the practice. I think it speaks more of consideration than dishonesty. It is possible to express a view without belittling or attacking. We wouldn't deliberately hurt Joe or Art, but we are less considerate of those we don't know personally. In a community as large as ours, we are bound to have Jehovah's Witnesses or, at least, Mormons, as Jon reminded us. Why step on toes, when there are so many other things we can discuss?

Many call themselves broadminded, but it might be appropriate to consider whether they are only broadminded toward those whose beliefs/practices are similar to their own?

I usually don't open my door to anyone I don't know, for fear of violence. I've been known to screen phone calls or to be short or even rude to telemarketers, due to a hectic schedule & a disinclination to commit to any transaction over the phone. Lately, though, after a 2-year bout of unemployment, it has occurred to me that most folks probably don't choose telemarketing as a vocation. They are just folks who need to make a living, like the rest of us, & probably deserve the same common courtesy that we'd want in their place.

Guess I can climb off my soapbox now.

bbc


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Fadac
Date: 21 May 99 - 05:20 PM

BBC, Yup, you hit the nail on the head. We have freedom in this country as long as, you go to MY church, Sit on MY side of the church, drive My kind of car, wear MY kind of clothes. Now we need to talk about your tie.

I think this goes back to the caveman, Our cave vs. your cave. Remember more people have died in the Army of the Lord than all the other armys on earth.

Been out of work myself. Even got a "no thanks" letter fron Disnyland. (as a technican) Couldn't get a job as a dishwasher. Ended up flipping burgers at Jack in the Box, then drove truck (again). Now I'm back into Computer systems, but it was real dry back in Illionise in the early 80's.

Hang in there, keep swining, something will come along.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 May 99 - 08:03 PM

Unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter into the kingdom of heaven". Matthew 18:3.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: bbc
Date: 22 May 99 - 08:41 AM

Fadac,

I appreciated your post. I am employed now, but it was a long haul & it helped me empathize w/ others who might not have the options I did. Shambles, you've stopped us dead w/ the Bible quote. I have no idea what your point is. Care to expand?

bbc


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Cuilionn
Date: 22 May 99 - 09:43 AM

Och, we ocht tae become like wee bairns, aye? Och, aye! Bairns, while they micht nae allus be kind, dinnae spend time plottin' th' conversion o' ither folks...they're mair likely tae be discoverin' sumpin' holy in th' cracks o' th' sidewalk or standin' afore a dandelion in absolute awe. I dinnae want tae abide by a faith whae's incompatible wi' jumprope games an' spaghettioes, an' th' anely kind o' "religious" conversation I'd be willin' tae "impose" on anither person is tae ask 'em sumpin' like "Dinnae ye think this plaice is amazin'?!? Dinnae ye think a' this is entirely amazin'?!?

--Cuilionn, jumpin' aff her soapbox tae gae play in th' dirt


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 May 99 - 09:57 AM

Yes it is the first time I have ever used a quote from the bible. I found it when I was surfing on a Quakers site for children.

In was in respose to an earlier strand in this thread, about whether our children were filled with sin. It seem to make the point better than I could.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: bbc
Date: 22 May 99 - 01:46 PM

Thanks, Shambles.

bbc


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Perdition express
Date: 22 May 99 - 02:05 PM

" Quote not the word of God to unhearing ears " Hebediah 1:3. Works more often than not as they turn away, muttering and looking in the index for the book of Hebediah.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 May 99 - 02:30 PM

Love it, perdition. bring your wicked irony to the "danger..ignore" thread.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 May 99 - 09:07 PM

Thanks Joe. I'm learning bit by bit.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: hank
Date: 24 May 99 - 09:37 AM

Just felt to comment on the armies of the Lord accusation (more people are killed in/by that one than any other) Unfortunatly this is true, but only if you accept that an army claiming to be the Lords, led by those claiming to know the Lord really are. If you read the bible it will become clear that not all of those armies over history were. Once in a while there is a need to go to war, but love and war don't go togather, and the Lord claims to be Love.

I thought the Shambles verse stood alone better then it would with any explination. Besides Shambles explination about sin in childeren, I can think of several more. I don't think i'll list them because it would do you better to try to find them yourself, and perhaps then you will find one I missed. Besides, one of them hits a bit close, and I need to take warning.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 25 May 99 - 03:09 PM

I am not going to got too deeply into my beliefs, but I was raised in the Catholic Church. While questioning a lot of the bible as a teen, I was told by a priest "The Bible is a book written by the people of that time for the people of that time" he went on to say that it was message of God's love that we should be paying attention rather than taking it absolutely literally. I believe in God, I believe that if you live your life trying to do well and good, you will be rewarded. There are those who believe that Mother Teresa isn't in heaven as she was not a member of the "right" church. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Being in the computer business, many telemarketers expect me and my co-horts to be wealthy and we are beseiged with calls from people selling things like time shares, mutual funds etc. One of the fellows in my office came up with one that not only stops them cold but takes his name right off their prospect list. His little white lie is "Gee, I'd love to help you, but I've just declared personal bankruptcy" he never hears back.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:44 AM

I don't feel any need to apologize to religious proselytizers (is that a word?)
I don't have a lot of respect for people who don't know me, don't really care about me, and won't remember me 6 months from now-- but who profess to feel great love for me.

As musicians, we don't all hear the music the same way. And certainly we don't all play in the same style, or with the same degrees of complexity.

Likewise, there are many paths to understanding God - Yahweh, The Great Spirit, the Oneness --whatever is your perception of the God principle.
From my former life as a Christian, I believe the strongest commandment is still, for me : Love thy neighbor. Today that means everyone in the world, and it means respecting their choice of philosophy, so long as it does not cause harm to others.

My thoughts, anyway

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: wdyat12
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:58 AM

One afternoon while siphoning off several carboys of various wines I was producing for home consumption, I heard a knock on my back door. I was feeling pretty good after tasting wine all afternoon, so I went to the door and invited in two ladies who were carrying armloads of religious material. While standing in my kitchen, the older of the two ladies acted as is she didn't see all the mess of winemaking all over the floor and she began her shpeil. The younger lady who was blind just listened and sniffed around. I listened attentively sipping a glass of cranberry wine. I was wrestling with the question of whether or not I should offer these ladies some of my home brew. The older lady, seizing an opportunity, read me the parable of Jesus turning water into wine and some other quotes about all sorts of wickedness. I thought this situation amusing, me being caught in my hour of wickedness by two church ladies. When a lull in the conversation arose, the younger lady spoke up. "May I taste the wine you are making?" the other lady asked to try some too. I immediately went to the cupboard and retreived two more wineglasses, filled them halfway, and presented my finest wine to them with anticipation. I realized that I had an oportunity here to convert these lost souls to a normal sinful life. The ladies were quite impressed with the cranberry wine and I offered them another glass, which they accepted without hesitation. The conversation took a turn from that moment on. They asked me all sorts of questions about winemaking. When the ladies finally left, they gave me all sorts of religious publications and thanked me for a lovely afternoon. The younger blind lady had to help the other lady out the door.

Moral of the story: We would not have had such a lovely afternoon if I had slammed the door in their faces.

wdyat12


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:09 PM

I have this image of one unique human being on each side of the door. Each one, in this little vision, is about to treat the other as if they just popped out of a cookie-cutter mold, made of whatever assumptions each one has accumulated about the world and the people in it.

Not how I'd like things to be. Not how I try to treat people, or like to be treated.

How about you?

~S~


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:42 PM

Art Thieme,

When you equated people of my political persuasion to Nazis I posted to you that I was offended. You responded:

"John, I'm certain you're a good guy. Nothing personal was intended."

Maybe you and your sense of being offended were due a more patronizing answer than the lengthy and thoughtful post offered by Rick Fielding.


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM

To get back to music:

Please check out a song that I was priviledged to be the first one to record -- on Sandy Paton's Folk Legacy-----"The Master Of The Sheepfold".

Basically it says that there is room for everyone no matter what your philosophy/religion or lack thereof.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:44 PM

Here are some links to other related discussions:

How Do You Handle Telemarketers?

Help - I want my privacy back


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 03:59 PM

Back in the mists of antiquity when I was an English major at the University of Washington, I took a course called "The Bible as Literature." No religion was discussed in the class; that was left up to each individual student's beliefs. The prof discussed the literary form being used (poem, short story, essay, etc.) and we read the assigned sections as such, reading a short story as a short story, not as a loosely connected collection of verses. The only thing that may have touched on religion -- actually, it did, pretty heavily in my mind at least -- was that the prof put things into historical context. Anyway, this stood me in good stead for what was to come later.

I spent a year in a hospital in Denver, undergoing some extensive physical therapy, and during that time, one of my roommates was a Fundamentalist minister. He tried to save the souls of everyone in the hospital, me included. And I couldn't get away from him because we slept in the same room! We had several extensive discussions, and it soon became evident that I knew more about the Bible than he did!. When he quoted a verse or two out of context in an effort to prove a point, I was able to respond, "No, Reverend, that's not what that means." and then I explained it to him! I suggested to him several times that he really needed to read the Bible more carefully, because he was making a mess of it. He soon left me alone and went to work on a Mormon down the hall (no luck there, either).

I've always heard that faith is a gift from God. Even if you have the gift, I don't think you can give it to somebody else by trying to cram it down their throat.

I heard an interesting quote a few months ago: "Reading the Bible doesn't make you a Christian any more than reading Louis L'Amour makes you a cowboy."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 04:03 PM

Glad you mentioned that song, Art. You know me, very non-Christian, but I've learned that song, from you, and sing it quite often in PalTalk.

Still, when I see someone at my door who is obviously proselytising, unbidden, they've already made assumptions about me (the perception that I may need to be saved) and as is my right, I will have assumptions about them thinking that about me, so I will not be inclined to do anything but tell them I am not interested and close the door.

Meaning no offence to Carol, Art,

kat


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 04:43 PM

Hey Art...... Tell Carol that I really don't mind Jehovah's Witnesses, but any aversion I have to them is genetic I think. Its the Italian side of me. Italians don't like ANY witnesses.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:14 PM

atheist = Someone with no invisible means of support.

John/GUEST, When and where did I say you or anybody was a Nazi??

Kat, when the Witnesses threatened to divide my family and shun my son------well, that was when we had a big fight--to say the least. It's a long story. But that was a few years ago. Things are cool now as long as we don't talk spiritual/philosophical/religious stuff. If we did, the dung would hit the fan for sure. (Deja-merde all over again.) We agree to disagree.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:29 PM

"Now that there's no USSR
To hate "legitimately"
And since Ed Murrow slew Joe McCarthy
And he's rotting away harmlessly
It's to hell with bipartisanship
That's show we're all humanity
Let's dig up crooked Richard Nixon
To revel in this new prosperity.

And add to the list Adolph Hitler
The haters'd love to see him strut
And good old General Franco
Those were the days, sure enough
Repeal all the Civil Rights advances
And Social Security help
'Cause HISTORY, IT NEVER HAPPENED!
AND HARD TIMES ARE YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT!

So, it's impeachment time in Georgia"


So wanting Clinton removed from office for offences that even the venerable Sen Byrd deemed worhty of impeachment=affinity for Hitler.

This thread was recalled at the time we were wrestling the issue of how offensive it was to some on the forum to be referred to as "Folk Nazis"

One man's hyperbole is another man's...


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:58 PM


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 07:34 PM

I wrote that song--yes. And nowhere in it did I call you a Nazi.

I still think there was no reason at all to Impeach Bill just because he got a blowjob and said it hadn't happened. God damn, I would've said the same thing over and over ad infinitum.

And now the party you are defending has STOLEN the election in the U.S. of A. Is that Gestapo tactics or what?

If the foo shits...


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: Callie at work
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 07:40 PM

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness and a Hell's Angel?

Someone who knocks on your door and then tells YOU to f%#@ off!!

I'm always polite to religious door-knocking folk. But I always wonder what would happen if I knocked on their door and asked if I could possibly persuade them that my musical preference is the ONLY musical preference worth having and that THEIR musical preference would not lead to their musical salvation.

Then I could leave them some cds - maybe some Charles Mingus and Tanahill Weavers. Maybe even leave some sheet music after pointing out the beauty of major seventh chords and why a tierce de picardy should be used sparingly.

How many people would tolerate my musical evangelism?

A story to finish. Two salesmen came to our work selling credit cards of some kind. They were so nervous that they kept apologising and stuttering. I felt very sorry for them and explained that if they wanted to sell their product they would have to smarten up their act. I asked them to go outside and enter again - this time with feeling! They did so and were much better the second time. I wasn't interested in buying of course, so they left empty-handed!

Callie


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Subject: RE: Religious (or otherwise) Doorknockers. (BS)
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 05:03 AM

There is a part two


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Mudcat time: 5 April 2:58 AM EDT

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