Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: skipy
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:45 PM

PS was good to his word, good man! I look fwd to finding time tommorrow to viewing this.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Peter Beta
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:13 PM

Watched it; pretty good...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:32 PM

I'm sure there are full time UA singers. Look up Traditions at the Tiger on the net - its a local club and they seem to book that sort of thing.

Moreover I seem to remember a gig where Bob davernport did it unaccompanied, although John Tams on the squeeze box joined him for the last number of the night, which was Memphis Tennessee, aa song collected in the colonies by Charles Edward Berry.

Actually doesn't Dave Fentiman work UA? Yeh he does, and I'm not a traddy, I don't really know about these things.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

'Lakeman , Carthy, Rusby may not be your idea of folk music, but they are trying hard and they're musicians , not serial killers. They don't deserve all this snotty stuff.'

It seems to me that Seth Lakeman and Kate Rusby always get targetted for some imaginary offence or other, but as you say they're trying ...trying, not sitting and moaning and/or worrying about whether it's folk music or not. I'll continue to listen to them, for the sheer pleasure of listening to them.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:03 PM

Further to Weelittledrummer's post, anyone know of a full-time English folkie singing just/almost-always unaccompanied, as Sam Larner did part-time?
I've seen Brian Watson do such a gig of Geordie songs, and heard his all-UA CD (which I won in the raffle)..but I think he's always been part-time.
Yes, they say, "audiences have more-sophisticated tastes these days," but I for one am quite content with good quality UA singing.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

I said...that I DON'T have a problem with the mid-Atlantic accent, and I DON'T have a problem with Billy Bragg et al using such an accent. At the same time I love Bragg's new CD. What I do have a problem with is the BNP and people who don't read

"read if you want to avoid the common idiocies."

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:44 AM

' I'm enough of a realist to say I do agree with the BNP on SOME things.'

This says it all, sunshine...

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Canadian accented Apprent - PM
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:13 AM

'singing with a mid-Atlantic/phoney American-accent'

I don't have a problem with this, and I love Billy Bragg's Love and Justice CD.

Charlotte R '

Actually Charlotte you probably have more in common than you think with our friend. Most of the BNP type bands sound more like Billy Bragg than Jackson Browne accent wise, the phoney baloney Landan accent is all the rage amongst the skinheads.

Also if you you think North to South - we are actually in the mid Atlantic. Why not a mid Atlantic accent. Think divergently, if you want to avoid the common idiocies.


I think theres something a bit nasty going on here anyway. Lakeman , Carthy, Rusby may not be your idea of folk music, but they are trying hard and they're musicians , not serial killers. They don't deserve all this snotty stuff.

And anyway, singing for Sam Larner was something he did when he wasn't arsing round catching fish. Those three have stated quite categorically - this is what they have done with their lives. Its not a bad thing, like crime or cruelty. Its is an honourable profession and as such worthy of respect.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Canadian accented Apprent
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:13 AM

'singing with a mid-Atlantic/phoney American-accent'

I don't have a problem with this, and I love Billy Bragg's Love and Justice CD.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:10 AM

' I'm enough of a realist to say I do agree with the BNP on SOME things.'

This says it all, sunshine...

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:17 AM

"will we get ONE song UA?...or hear a recording of Joseph Taylor of Sam Larner, such that folks are not deluded too much"

I'd be inclined to give Ms Carthy the benefit of expectation until her programme goes out, given her family background and upbringing. Though even the Ruzzer could surprise us I suppose.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:00 AM

As Tony Hancocok in The Poetry Society said, 'This bloke's a real intellectual, he reckons Bertrand Russell is a bit of Charlie.......'

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:37 AM

Just above, I reminded ms Lemon of that Folknacious, and I for one do hope to be watching each of the remaining 3 performers in the series.
But I think it would be better if at least one of the 3 sung unaccompanied most of the time, as English folkies did for hundreds of years...will we get ONE song UA?...or hear a recording of Joseph Taylor of Sam Larner, such that folks are not deluded too much?
And, as for your "civil war", I think I compete/fight reasonably fairly with WORDS/walkaboutsverse - unlike the tactics of some others presently living within the borders of England.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:57 PM

Dare I remind the last three readers of this topic left standing that the series continues at 11am on Sunday with the programme about Kate Rusby, or would that be off topic? Perhaps it should be another topic so you can star the civil war all over again.

Of course, if you all watched it you wouldn't have anything theoretical to argue about, which would sort of spoil things ;-)

Just imagine how bad it's going to get after the Athena one the following week. She's rumoured to be partly Greek and sing no traditional songs at all. That will never do.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:45 PM

I'm not a member of the BNP or any other political party, Charlotte - as I said, I believe in the English nation and the United Nations; hence, I'd rather the English Democrats. But, as with a growing number of folk, I'm enough of a realist to say I do agree with the BNP on SOME things.
I also agree with Billy Bragg on SOME things - but not his latest venture of singing with a mid-Atlantic/phoney American-accent, as I recently Commented on his myspace.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:14 PM

as you should have clarified my "English nationalism - WITHOUT any imperialism this time")

I'll answer that with this final answer which comes your way by way of Billy Bragg (I do love this quote :-) )

'The British National Party would probably make it into a parliament elected by proportional representation, too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of.'

- Billy Bragg, an interview in the Guardian, 2004

transmission ends.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:21 AM

Actually, Charlotte, I should clarify that (as you should have clarified my "English nationalism - WITHOUT any imperialism this time") by saying the truth that I'm nearly always chipping away on the internet whilst watching the TV news.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:00 PM

'I prefer to get the news nice and easy from the TV'

why doesn't that surprise me in the least......?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:40 PM

Except for jobsearching, I rarely read our newspapers, frankly, Charlotte - I prefer to get the news nice and easy from the TV; but I'll take your word for it.
You can catch KR on Sunday morning at 11, Sal...just after drinking-in the dawn-chorus on one of your walkabouts, maybe..?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:57 PM

'his stage-craft is rock, and his hoverfly accompaniment is not very folkie, either'

I don't have a problem with this.

We don't want a return of English nationalism," Tony Blair. Oh, yes, we do.

I've heard all this somewhere before...ahhh..the Daily Mail.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM

Oh dear I seem to have into this thread too late to take another pop at 'KR'. Ah well, must be more abservant in future.

Sal (sitting comfortably after a long walk in the dusk)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 04:07 AM

Did I say something?...did I remind folks that, not that long ago, English had far more faith in their own culture and ways, and that paying a Swede or an Italian a fortune to compete for us was unthinkable..? "We don't want a return of English nationalism," Tony Blair. Oh, yes, we do: WITHOUT any imperialism this time - WalkaboutsVerse

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

I said way above, Sugwash, that one positive about Seth's work, in my opinion, is his folkie lyrics but, yes, as you say, another is that, so far, he has not gone for the mid-Atlantic/phoney-American accent - although, I repeat, he does belt-out those lyrics in the American-pop style, his stage-craft is rock, and his hoverfly accompaniment is not very folkie, either.
(P.S: I was actually born in Lancashire the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup.)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Sugwash
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 05:08 AM

Well Walkabout, if my memory serves, the KR got a lashing for singing The Village Green Preservation Society in an accent not consistent with the setting of the programme Jam and Jerusalem. Given that she also played the guitar on the song, well her crimes appear legion.

Personally I enjoy both her and Seth Lakeman's singing whatever accent they have, though I'm beggered if I can find anything but Devon in Seth's.

I always suspect that Lancastrians are behind everything bad, it's a traditional Yorkshire thing.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:38 PM

A Yorkshire lady "pilloried for singing a song in a Yorkshire accent" (Sugwash)?...who on earth?!..Lancastrians..?..Wasn't "Rose in June" was it?!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 05:38 PM

'.what songs..?..anybody..'

Sorry, I'm too young to remember *LOL*
_________________________________________________________________

anyway...yes..KR's appearance on My Music will certainly generate alot of chatter, much of it, more than likely, further anti KR rants, shame really.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Sugwash
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 05:25 PM

Well said Folknacious. I fear that KR will be the subject of much chattering come Sunday. I recall that she was pilloried for singing a song in a Yorkshire accent on these pages not long ago...which is like an American accent, only bigger and better!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:14 PM

...some may argue that Kate Rusby's and Eliza Carthy's folk voices are also too good for accompanyment.
But, as I said, above, I too have questioned folkies of old always singing unaccompanied, because of all these English citterns in English taverns and barber-shops of the 17th century, used to accompany songs...what songs..?..anybody..

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:33 PM

I didn't go to university but I still think most of us on here are nutters!

But here we have it. "Authentic" means unaccompanied. It's the law.

Keep banging the rocks together!

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to the rest of the series which I can watch in the surroundings of my own home unimpeded by all you lot shouting, and while doing so hope that members of the general public may stumble on them and a few may even have their preconceptions altered and get interested in this music. I'm glad it's not "authentic" in that case, because there's probably a higher chance of it happening.

We need ambassadors.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:14 AM

Authentic: genuine, real, not fake...so if someone sings an E. trad, e.g., with a phoney-American accent, another may say that's not authentic! Or just shout - yeehaa!
And, regards being on the TV, there we do agree - it's often stated that folk-rockers, Steel Eye Span, brought many into folk music (although, again, I'd much rather hear Maddy Prior's AUTHENTIC unaccompanied English folk-singing).

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM

I would just like to restate that I agree with the departing Ian.


Apologies though - didn't read every post before I posted myself. Having looked at it all now that it IS bloody predictable. I dont mind if anybody once to restate something I haven't said either.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:41 AM

WalkaboutsVerse, you typed above in response to me: "Hear, hear, Ian - except it is well documented that E. trads were sung unaccompanied for centuries, yes?" Your response proves that you did not understand my post, comparing living traditions to dead museum pieces. It seems you prefer the latter.

I also raised a question that the The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice restated: "I'd still waiting for GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse's answer to the question posed by Folknacious earlier in the thread. What is "authentic"?" I still haven't seen an answer.

I also stated what mattkeen restated: "As regards the music- I AM SO GLAD ITS ON THE TELLY, THOUGH ITS NOT MY PERSONAL CUP OF TEA." For this reason I won't post again to this thread, as it now seems to me like a bunch of people shouting at each other with their hands over their ears.

What a shame.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:36 AM

Definitely, I've got a BA in Humanities - I need no other confirmation.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:23 AM

"Nutter", Mattkeen...4 technical certificates in production technology and a BA degree in humanities, majoring in anthropology, with distinctions..? But putting the anthropology of music to one side for a moment, I'd genuinely much rather listen to just the top-line melody well sung/played than what Seth does. Thus, I often listen to Scotland's Gaelic Radio, and attend/participate in festival singarounds and competitions here in NE England, where there are a few who are very good at it.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:32 AM

I am not saying that the balancing between experimenting and preserving is right,... I am just asserting that you are indeed a nutter.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM

Walkabout
You are a nutter

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

I should have added that i also agree with Greg. There's room for both innovation and preservation. Neither is a threat to the other and they can peacefully co-exist. Indeed, both are probably key to the longevity of the tradition.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

Re: "experimentation"/"preservation": there's too much of the former, Mattkeen, and not nearly enough of the latter...and it's getting worse.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

indeed, Matt.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:31 AM

Why is there such a tendency to see experimenting as a threat?

Seth's work like many others is closer to the boundary of what we are used to hearing as traditional English folk.
So what. Its not threatening more traditional approaches. Its not an either/or choice.
We need experimentation and we need preservation of what went before. We can do both. What I don't want is museum music

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:20 AM

...and suddenly, everyone was playing one of those 4-string guitars...I wonder if their sales have suddenly gone up?
As far as jokes/good humour goes, George, I prefer your "wouldn't give a fig for stiff upper lips"!
But is the encouragement of being passionate about things (even from traditionally sober politicians, these days) a good idea...

Poem 150 of 230: TEARS

Watching a documentary
    Of the '66 World Cup,
And the way of England's Ramsey,
    I thought: "Let's give 'passion' up."

It voiced and showed his calm way -
    He playing things down a touch;
And as his home team won the day,
    They showed care but not too much.

Analytical Englishmen -
    Cool over the tasks that lay;
We see some of it in Henman,
    But it's not the modern way.

Sadly, passion and youthful thought
    Have become the status quo,
And social standards and sport
    Have sunk relatively low.

http://www.walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,Solomon Brown
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

The Channel 5 programme was indeed top and tailed with an Arts Council logo.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM

I understood that Michael Proudfoot's films were produced by his independent production company who also accessed some arts council funding.


As regards the music- I AM SO GLAD ITS ON THE TELLY, THOUGH ITS NOT MY PERSONAL CUP OF TEA.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

According to one of the producers of the C5 series they were in receipt of ACE funding (dunno how much).

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:43 AM

I wish people would not assume "authentic" or "traditional" mean "unchanging". In folk music, change itself is surely traditional and authentic. If I say "I like my folk music traditional" it doesn't remotely mean "I like my music the same as it was 100 years ago".But of course this doesn't mean any kind of change is traditional or authentic. People are entering the usual minefield of wilful mutual misunderstanding.
Now, to return to the subjecxt of the thread, the Seth Lakeman programme. Here is a question, to which I haven't got an inkling of an answer. Channel 5 is a commercial programme.Making programmes costs money. I was involved in a comparable scale TV folk programme more than ten years ago, and I think the budget may have been about £50K. Now, this Lakeman prog was longer, and things cost more nowadays.So how much would it cost? £100K? I havent a clue, but maybe something around that?. Now, programmes on Channel 5 are paid for by adverts aren't they? Now, people have drawn attention to a few Karine Polwart and Catharine(sp?) Williams and Bon Jovi ads that went with the programme. Now, I dont imagine 11AM is exactly peak time, would that programme have really pulled in that much in advertising revenue? And, if not, where does the money come from? How does it work? Anybody know?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:40 AM

Agreed about the rapid change in tachnology and fashion nowadays, David. But that still tells us little about how Joseph Lees sung his "Jone O'Grinfilt", and I'd bet it wasn't dispassionately, unless he was doing a dead-pan on it.

You mention above that "for a large part of English history being passionate about things was frowned upon - you know, stiff-upper-lip, etc". I believe this to be a fallacy, the manners you refer to were an affectation limited to a particular time (Victoria has a lot to answer for) and a particular class (mostly city-dwellers and well to do, with little experience of the things the traditional songs talk about). The ordinary man on the street or on the farm, the miner or the sailor or the tinker or the tanner wouldn't give a fig for stiff upper lips, I bet. When they hurt they cried out and when they were happy they laughed. And as for being "frowned upon", the very expression belongs to those upper classes. Let's not fall into the trap of extrapolating from a few snippets of information about the well-to-do of a given period to views of a whole, diverse society across the centuries.

And just to play the culture game a little - I am reminded that in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries many of the arts turned towards borrowing ideas from classical Roman and Greek periods; from "bucolic" poems in Elizabethan times to the columns etc in architecture etc. Now, does that mean that English culture was irreparably contaminated by those affectations? Ot simply that it assimilated them and grew with them? I think you can guess my view. Well, the same can hold true today, with influences from other cultures (just think of Chicken Tikka Massala, lager and kebab). Why, if it helps to get people singing, I might even condone karaoke!

OK, that last one was a joke. Karaoke is unforgiveable...

So let Seth experiment. He cannot hurt anything, and he may well add value. According to many, he does, too.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

"And given that many of the early singers were probably rather wary of such a machine, their apparent 'stiffness' and lack of passion is easy to understand."

Indeed - hence my point about the pub. If people had been recorded in a more comfortable environment, no doubt much more of their passion would be evident on the recordings.

They were also often being recorded by people from a higher social class, which also might account for some stiffness.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:24 AM

Sorry, but I can't agree. There are plenty of references to impromptu performances pre-1914 that were passionate, histrionic, mawkish and even angry - many where there was 'not a dry eye in the house'.
One of the problems with early recording equipment was a very limited range. One had to stand very close and keep to a level tone for the best results. And given that many of the early singers were probably rather wary of such a machine, their apparent 'stiffness' and lack of passion is easy to understand.
If you look at the time sigs in some of the transcripts of source material (I'm thinking of the Hammond and Gardner MSs, and songs like 'Hares in the Old Plantation') you can see that the singer adopted a very free and easy approach, which would indicate to me that there was a lot of ornamentation and the like going on.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

Okay, but George - do you accept that fashion/technologies did change far less rapidly in the past, and that in those 100-year-old recordings folkies were NOT passionately belting out trad lyrics in the manner of pop-stars and Seth? Pashion, in England, is a very new fashion/buzz word - indeed, when I came back on a visit (I'm a repat. now) in 1988, I never heard suchlike; and did not Alf Ramsey encourage calm and discipline rather than passion and tolerance?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 05:48 AM

"It could eventually lead, Ruth, to a more-peaceful and interesting multicultural world, with eco-travel and fair-trade"

...but no immigration, right? And remind me how removing the bazouki from Irish music is going to bring this about?

You think that separation breeds understanding. I think it breeds insularity. We'll have to agree to differ.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakemen on Channel 5 today
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 05:35 AM

It could eventually lead, Ruth, to a more-peaceful and interesting multicultural world, with eco-travel and fair-trade (via a stronger UN) between friendlier nations; also, as for Victorian/Nazi-type imperialism, I hate it, and hope that Scottish/Welsh/etc. nationalisms also increase, and that the Commonwealth, NATO, EU, and UK all dissolve. Rather, I believe in the English nation and the United Nations - we DON'T need these other imperialistic groupings. (Indeed, I posted a poem on this, just the other day, on the thread I started a while back - Walkaboutsverse.)