An ASBO for Morris Dancing?

Subject: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 07:37 AM

BBC Radio 4's literary quiz and parody programme The Write Stuff has just broadcast an item about someone getting an Anti-Social Behaviour Order (ASBO) for Morris dancing without a permit on the Isle of Wight.

What a disgrace! What an insult! Somebody should start a camapign to close down the BBC and start a thread about it. Oh, I just did . . .

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

Diane,
In another thread you wrote:

They whinge because mainstream, "normal" people don't take them seriously, yet make no effort to respect tradarts themselves but arse around in stupid clothes* getting pissed and degrading the music. ………………………..

………..Meanwhile, the REAL musicians, the invisible ones that persons lost in Missouri (or even downtown Mitcham) don't believe exist are just getting on with playing, in sessions in people's houses, outside in rain and hail for Morris* or in pubs without poncy tea lights on the tables, as they have always done for decades.

* my emphasis with bold font

Morris dancers, (with their bells, ribbons, clogs, breeches and stockings, flowers on their hats, black faces, handkerchiefs and the like), tend to get equated by the general public (albeit wrongly) with stupid clothes.

I'm a bit confused. Are you for or against Morris dancing?

DC

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:08 AM

They say it's better than sex!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

Nah, the stupid clothes are the swirly trousers, silly hats, odd smocks and colour crises worn by the people who follow them around - the sort of things that stay in the bottom drawer until the festival season, when the owners feel compelled to put them on as if to say "I'm a really eccentric free spirit when I'm not teaching/doing IT/selling widgets, I am - and this proves it."
But that's my view - Diane can certainly answer for herself.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:00 AM

So........moris dancers should perhaps dance in lounge suits?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

Yes, Cap'n.

Morris kit ain't "stupid".
And Cotswold dancers have wavers, not handkerchiefs.
And Border sides (and Molly and North West) can have blue or red faces as well as black. It's regional.

I think that makes it (Good Enough For) F*lkies 0          Morris 1.

But answer the question: should a Morris dancer risk an ASBO for dancing on the Isle of Wight? The BBC seems to think so. Is this an outrage?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM

'Morris kit ain't "stupid".'


Never been to upton ff then?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

Diane

Perhaps you should turn your wireless off.

Too many things seem to upset you:-)

Dave

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dazbo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

It was part of a John Grisham pastiche and I thought it funny

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Megan L
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

strange when I googled this the only reference found was this thread.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:45 AM

That description rings a bell Captain Ginger :)

G

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: treewind
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM

I'd like to know more about the background to this story. There really isn't enough information, and I can't find it on the BBC news site now. Morris dancing itself isn't anti-social behaviour, but a particular group of morris dancers (or some individuals amongst them) could well have been behaving antisocially some of the time. Heavens, they might have been drinking...

Without a permit?
Morris dancing is specifically exempt from pub licensing regulations, but I suppose there might be local bye-laws applicable to any kind of street entertainment.

As I said, not enough information to make sense of this.

Anahata

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

LOL - it was a spoof of a John Grisham 'legal drama' novel where the contestants on the Radio4 literary quiz The Write Stuff were 'invited' to set a legal drama in his style in a quiet English solicitor's office :)

Load of Baldricks! :)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

Darren, I know it was a pastiche because I was listening to The Write Stuff and Anahata, I also know that you don't need a PEL to do Morris.
Maybe I just wanted to find out how many people read a tin of beans that has "stand in a pan of boiling water for 10 minutes" on the label and instantly jump up onto the cooker.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

I'm off for a tear down the dotted line.

G

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:50 PM

Blimey.
Who thinks Morris is BS?
It bloody isn't.
This belongs back upstairs (on top of the cooker).

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM

"getting pissed " - now that could never apply to Morris Dancers could it?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:45 PM

Last night the Red Green show had Red's nephew (good gracious! What's his name?) dressed in Morris gear. I'll bet a lot of USers were confused... Colorful, though.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Cassy
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

Can be a little black and white too

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM

Indeed

Giok

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

Then every one of these men he investeth with his liveries of green, yellow or some other light wanton colour. And as though that were not gaudy enough, they bedecke them-selves with scarffes, ribbons, and laces, hanged all over with gold rings, precious stones and other jewels; this done, they tie about either leg twenty or forty bells, with rich handkerchiefs in their hands, and sometimes laid across over their shoulders and necks, borrowed for the most part of their pretty Mopsies and loving Bessies... Thus, all things set in order, have they their hobby-horses, dragons & other antics, together with their bawdy pipers and thundering drummers, to strike up the devil's dance withal; then march these heathen company towards the church and church-yard, their pipers piping, their drummers thundering, their stumps dancing, their bells jingling, their handkerchiefs swinging about their heads like madmen, their hobby-horses and other monsters skirmishing amongst the throng... like devils incarnate... and so besotted are some, that they will not only give them money to maintain their abominations withal, but also wear their badges and cognizances in their hats and caps openly.

Philip Stubbes, Anatomie of Abuses, 1583


Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:45 PM

Memebr of the campign to re-instate Morris Dancing to the music section reporting for duty:-)

D.

---

Agreed. Can't quite figure out why it was moved to the non-music section.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

BTW - William Kemp seems to have his fair share of complaints from locals if you look at his 'Nine Dayes Wonder'.

D.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Sapper in Carlisle after a couple (or two) p
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:36 PM

Oh dear Dianne, I think it is time you learned to go and lie down in a dark room whenever you hear or read something that upsets you.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:55 PM

Diane Easby

And Cotswold dancers have wavers, not handkerchiefs.

Well! You learn something new every day. I started dancing the Morris in 1972 but I never knew that before.

Captain Ginger

Yeah, I always seem to have an odd smock left over at the end of the wash.

Bonnie Shaljean

Good Grief! Imagine what Philip Stubbes would be like if he signed up to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:00 AM

It looks like Morris dancers were wealthy men in those days then, dripping with gold and jewels.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: LesB
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM

Captain Ginger wrote......"Nah, the stupid clothes are the swirly trousers, silly hats, odd smocks and colour crises worn by the people who follow them around - the sort of things that stay in the bottom drawer until the festival season, when the owners feel compelled to put them on as if to say "I'm a really eccentric free spirit when I'm not teaching/doing IT/selling widgets, I am - and this proves it."
I don't know what Morris he has been watching but the nearest i've seen to that are a handfull of Border/Molly sides that might come close, but the majority of sides have matching & in many cases, sober kit. I can't say that the dancers are sober though.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:54 AM

I don't know what Morris he has been watching

Sigh.

The Cap'n isn't talking about dancers but is quoting, in part, my description of the GEFFish punters. He was correcting someone else who hadn't been keeping up or actually reading the thread.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

Nice one, Bonnie!

Was the programme broadcast on April 1st, perchance?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:08 AM

I think he's referring to their audience, Les.

(Not that I've been aware of Morris dancers particularly attracting this dress code which I guess may be seen if dancing at a festival but is not usual otherwise. In those situations, personally I'd thought pewter tankard = primarily morris/trad and some of the other dresses (for want of a better term) more "hippie" in tastes)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:58 AM

"Cotswold dancers have wavers, not handkerchiefs."

There's a "some" missing there. In 30 years of dancing I've alsways had hankies, the sort you can use for other purposes, never wavers. And I can't recall anyone in real life calling them wavers even if that's what they're for.

As for ASBOs, there's a reason East Saxon Sword wear orange!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM

Hmm, brings bizarre images to mind - Adderbury, Bampton, Sherbourne and Guantanamo? And cutting capers must be tricky in shackles!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM

Nope, Strad, it's genuine 16th-century rancour. I know Jon's opening comment in the post after yours was directed to Les, but one might apply it to Stubbs' comments as well!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

Re the swirly trousers et al: it's the fairies I can't cope with. Here's a little tip: few sights are more grotesque than that of a 40+ woman in a fairy costume and face paint. In fact, fairy dresses for the over-12s should warrant an ASBO. Just don't go there.

Happily, most proper folk festivals are largely free of this phenomenon these days. But if the footage of Cambridge on yesterday's Seth Lakeman programme was anything to go by, The Folk Festival For People Who Don't Like Folk Music still attracts geriatric fairies by the score. Maybe seeing themselves on telly will be the wake-up call they needed.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

Ruth Archer

Here's a little tip: few sights are more grotesque than that of a 40+ woman in a fairy costume and face paint.

You can't go to Towersey then. It's the 40+ men in a fairy costume and face paint that you need to worry about there.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM

Ah - you'll be referring to the Barbies. My favourites were Joe Rusby as Thai Ladyboy Barbie, and Saul Rose as 70s Barbie (shudder).

It may have been ugly, but at least they knew it!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Technically - Cotswold Morris Dancers did not use - Handkerchiefs - but Neckerchiefs, and they were much larger than the modern handkerchief. They should be at least 30 inches square.
A Cotswold dancer, when standing with arms at side and handkerchiefs in hands - the tip of the handkercheif should be nearly touching the ground.
This is why in some traditions - ie. Adderbury & Headington, where there are complex hand movements, the handkerchiefs (or Wavers - as Diane says - although I also have never heard that term!) are held on diagonal corners.

Tim Radford
ex-Squire & Foreman of The Adderbury Morris & Kirtlington Morris.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

RTim

A Cotswold dancer, when standing with arms at side and handkerchiefs in hands - the tip of the handkercheif should be nearly touching the ground.

Mine did. I've got short legs.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

A Morris Offspring person told me to call them wavers. She also told me not to attach beards to any of the dancers in the animation I was making. I've sent off an official enquiry to the Fed for clarification.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM

No beards! There you go then - did she also say to make them slim?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

Diane Easby

She also told me not to attach beards to any of the dancers

It depends where you attach them.

Clown: Now Jove, in his next commodity of hair, send thee a beard!
Viola: By my troth, I'll tell thee, I am almost sick for one, though I would not have it grow on my chin.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

Neither Handkerchiefs nor Neckerchiefs do we have, but "Napkins" is their name. As RTim says, about 30 inches square, and nearly touching the ground when at rest.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM

Also - By the way - going back to what this posting was all about to begin with!!
I think it rather stupid that Morris in this day and age should be called an ASBO!
Unless - as someone suggested - they were doing something really stupid themselves!
And who knows with those Isle of Wighters!! (My Grandmother was born there!)

Also, as it has been said - Morris has been taken out of the Law relating to performance in public, but I have to say after being for years a supporter of The Labour Party - I think it amazing that such a law could have been en-acted by them?
It "Almost" makes me glad that I now live in the USA, where you have to get a permit for EVERYTHING! - The Land of The Free?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM

Re: the Great Handkerchief Debate.... I've also heard them referred to as 'snotters'. Charming. We at Abram call them hankerchiefs, which si what ours are.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM

Back on-thread: I don't think it's fair to class Morris as anti-social behaviour, any more than any other form of dancing. Mind you, it seems to have the strange power to inspire an anti-social reaction in some English people....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Why would anyone have two neckerchiefs? You only have one neck! And before you ask why have two hankerchiefs - one for each nostril!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

But it should be three - one for show, one for blow and one in the wash.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM

From the Morris Federation:

"Common usage is wavers, same as 'sticking' instead of 'bashing'."
So there.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Cassy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

I'll check out the book

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

I am interested to know who in the Morris Fed. says - "Wavers"?
And it is as if over 40 years experience in Morris (mine) counts for nothing because I have not heard the term before!

I have to say - I don't really care. You can call them what you want; it won't stop me calling them what I want! And I think that is the way Morris Dancing should be viewed.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Lester
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

Diane you should really as the Morris Ring for the definitive answer as the Fed lets wimin dance and is therefore wrong how ever you look at it.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM

Nah, the Ring wouldn't have replied to my email.
What am I talking about?
They haven't even got email . . .

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: LesB
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:13 PM

Diane there is an enquiry form on their website The Morris Ring & the good news (for me that is), is that the squire elect is a sword dancer.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM

Been dancing cotswold morris for over 40 years and never heard them called wavers. This is the first time I have heard the stupid word.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: mouldy
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:19 AM

Years ago, Jubilee Morris Men danced at Jan Smuts airport before welcoming Coventry MM for a visit, and got moved on by the police for "Riotous Assembly" which was defined as a gathering of more than 4 people, if I remember right.
It happened just before we arrived there in the early 80s. All I know was you couldn't dance in the street without strict permissions, and most of the dance outs were private paid bookings.

And I've never heard 'em called wavers before either, even during 30 years of marriage to a cotswold dancer, who danced with 5 different sides, plus Whitby Scratch. I dance NW Morris, and I've never come across that term in that tradition, either, and there are all sorts of names for things held!

Andrea

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:19 AM

The very excellent Morris Offspring which is made up of young dancers from the top Cotswold sides say "wavers".
The most representative overall governing body, the Federation, says they're "wavers".
I think that's point proved.
Have you any idea how ridiculous you'll look to knockers and outsiders if you descend into a squabble about what to call your kit?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:26 AM

When you think about it though it mut be right - If dancing such as barn dance, square dance, ceilidh or whatever you like to call it is social dance then all else must, dy default, be anti-social dance. Ergo Morris Dancing IS Anti-Social Behaviour. To get an order usualy means to have to do it, so an ASBO is therefore an order to perform Morris Dance! Bloody hell! That'll get the yobs off the streets...

:D

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:02 AM

Morris has got a legal exemption from licensing requirements, but they have to show their "waivers" when they dance.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:03 AM

Oh Snuffy that was awful LOL

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: pavane
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:06 AM

No, I have never heard of 'wavers' either.
There are 'linked handkerchief' dances, but I never heard of a 'linked wavers' dance...

(And I should be careful when referring to 'knockers' in the company of the Morris Fed, too.)

And hey. I still remember meeting a member of Jubilee MM on Newport Station, Wales in the 1980's...
Nice to hear of them again

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

No, No. Diane is right. At the Seventh Conference of the International Folk Music Council Held at Sao Paulo, Brazil in 1954, Enid Abayes presented a paper entitled Definition of Morris Dancing in which they were clearly defined as wavers.

Morris sides all over the Cotswolds were enormously grateful. They'd been wondering what to call them for hundreds of years.

One or two villages that refused to comply were told that what they were doing was clearly not Morris Dancing.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:38 AM

I personally don't call them anything. I'm not in a side these days so don't have to. But having consulted the super-side, Morris Offspring, and the Morris Federation which is an authorititive governing body, I'd be inclined to accept their word as accurate rather than a disparate gaggle of ex-prancers.

Suit yourselves, disintegrate into squabbling chaos and squeal in an impotent tantrum while the media takes the piss out of how ridiculous you look in the eyes of the outside world.

.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM

Is it 'wavers' or 'waivers'?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Whippett
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

surely it should be a FASBO

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:23 AM

Where is Keith Chandler when you really need him?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Marje
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:44 AM

Tim up there, and anyone else who's still missing the point of the original post - it was not a serious point or allegation. It was a quotation from a SPOOF, a PARODY, a PASTICHE of a John Grisham thriller, as the panelists imagined he might write for the English market. It was not real. Nobody ever said that a morris dancer could or would be the subject of an ASBO, it was a flight of fancy on a panel game about writing.

And to move on the the hanky issue: wouldn't it be astonishing if ever morris side everywhere called their kit by exactly the same names? Why on earth does it matter if people in one region use slightly different terminology - the do for the weather, for types of bread, for children's games, so why not in the morris world? And Diane, if you think it loks silly to squabble about this (as indeed it does), remember it was you who started the controversy by correcting someone else's usage.

And as for fairies at festivals - bring 'em on! I prefer to stick to more conventional festival clothing myself, namely a casual, verging-on-hippie style, but I think it's just great to see grown men and women discovering their inner fairy and finding a place where they can do this without hindrance or ridicule. So what if they do wear suits all the rest of the year, is that any better?

Mind you, I do live near Totnes, where you could probably walk down the high street wearing wings and a tiara without attracting a backward glance.

Marje

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:38 AM

"I think it's just great to see grown men and women discovering their inner fairy and finding a place where they can do this without hindrance or ridicule."

They'll be getting ridicule if I'm around.

What on earth is an "inner fairy"? It all feels so contrived and twee, it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a bit like those chaps who come home from a hard day in the City and put on their wives' underwear - a release from tension, I grant you, but a somewhat dysfunctional one...

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Bemused bystander
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:54 AM

I sometimes get home from work & take my wifes underwear off - does that count?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

You wear your wife's underwear at work? What's your job?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Bemused Bystander
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:32 AM

Elastic tester in a knicker factory.
A brief note ----
Wages, 20knicker a week...sorry that was a bloomer.. should be 30 knicker a week!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:36 AM

This thread is pants.

US readership needs to translate . . . )

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:36 AM

Ach Bemused and here was me thought you were a diesel fitter

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Bemused Bystander
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:43 AM

I used to be fit but now no fitter than a couch potato :-)

(seriously - I started my working life as a Diesel Fitter 40+ yrs ago)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

Er I think I may have lost the plot ( Again I here some of you cry)

Are we discussing ASBOs or the OUTside leg measurements of Morris Dancers.

If as Snuffy suggests napkins/hankies/wavers/neckers or whatever are 30 ins. square, the mathematically astute among you ( square on the hypotenuse and all that) will quickly calculate that when held on the diagonal the length will be 42.43 (to 2 places)ins.

With me so far ? Wake up that boy at the back?

This leads us to decide if
(a)the lower corner should touch the ground or just "clear" it (if so by how much?).

(b) should the upper corner touch the belt or hip bone of the dancer?

Class your task for home next weekend is to:
1 attend the next Stand (or practice night) of your local morris side

2 note there answers to a and b above as given by th dancers

3 with the aid of your calculator/pda/laptop, calculate the average leg length of the dancers

4 enter the data into an Spreadsheet ( your tutor can only view Excel spreadsheets)

5 on Monday morning combine all the data gathered by the members of you Tutor group into another spreadsheet and use that info to calculate the Average outside leg of all the Morris sides interviewed by the other members of your Tutor Group

6 On Tuesday prepare a report for submission to EFDSS and the Ring - you report is to include the spreadsheet that you prepared on Monday

Dave (No I,m not a Maths Teacher but you could tell that anyway couldn't you/)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM

"....This is why in some traditions - ie. Adderbury & Headington, where there are complex hand movements, the handkerchiefs (or Wavers - as Diane says - although I also have never heard that term!) are held on diagonal corners....."
Never seen a Hanky, or a Waver, held by anything other than the corner. Now if you hold a Hanky by the corner, it doesn't really have much choice as to being "diagonal"
In closing I would say that only "snotty" people would call "ankies", "wavers".
JohnB who uses "sticks" when he dances.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:47 AM

I think that's referring to the holding of the snotters by opposing corners to make a parachute-like thingy rather than letting the whole thing dangle from just one corner.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM

Er this is your not maths teacher again

I am here to warn you that The project for the weekend after next ( you're not at a festival again are you?) will be to decide on the correct name and average length of the sticks / strikers /basher whatever they call 'em.

Dave

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM

i think he means diagonally opposite corners being held together, so the hankie doesn't drag on the ground or fly about too much....it makes a sort of bag effect.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM

http://www.proudfoot.tv/clientwork/Morris.mov

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:08 AM

or Wavers - as Diane says

Not me. My information (for the 3rd time) comes from the fittest and toppest Cotswold side, Morris Offspring and from the most representative governing body, the Morris Federation.

The point of the topic was to highlight inaccuracies in yet another BBC programme, The Write Stuff, which amid some really funny spoofy pastiche, managed to give the erroneous impression that a venue needed a licence to stage Morris (which, under current PEL legislation, it does not).

What the resulting "discussion" has revealed, however, is an even more than usual inability (or refusal) to read preceding posts resulting in (usually) wilful misunderstanding and compounded Chinese whispers.

In describing aspects of the nightmarish "f*lk scene" as ghastly, Matthew Parris certainly had a point. It's how it looks to outsiders.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

"It's how it looks to outsiders."

Wtf is an "outsider"? Or even more importantly, what is an 'insider'?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:44 AM

Wtf is an "outsider"? Or even more importantly, what is an 'insider'?

These are technical terms for different sorts of Morris dancer. It depends on whether you wear your wife's underwear inside or outside your kit.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

Colin Irwin tells a story about his brief and doomed foray into morris dancing, where he once looked up in the middle of a dance and realised he wasn't waving a hankie, but a pair of his wife's knickers.

I'd like to believe it's true....

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:24 PM

I'm just popping in to say that I opened this thread to learn more about Morris Dancing and what they heck an ASBO was {is}.
Instead {besides?} I'm finding this thread to be a fun read {in a play-on-words, witty kinda way}.

I gather that might not have been the intention of the thread starter, but I guess we never know how threads will turn out once they are started.

-a note from a true blue USA outsider

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:46 PM

Have you any idea how ridiculous you'll look to knockers and outsiders if you descend into a squabble about what to call your kit

Diane,
You were the first one to quibble about my reference to handkerchiefs. Seems to me that it's a case of " physician, heal thyself ".


DC

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:06 PM

Hi Azizi - Nice to see you on "this side" of the pond.

An ASBO is an Anti-Social Behaviour Order. I think Philip Stubbes would have approved ;-)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:12 PM

I did say in the first post what an Anti Social Behaviour Order was for anyone who was not aware.

The Anonymous Guest above asks WTF is an Insider/Outsider. S/he can answer that by looking at him/herself. A non-Mudcat member and thus a pariah, technically unable to post, (though this one apparently can).

A Mudcat member is by definition, an Insider, a respected member of a "f*lkie" (yuk) community, a tie-die beclad, tankard swigger who never bothers to tune because anything is Good Enough For F*lk.

Anyone "outside" falls into one of two categories:

The first, led at the moment apparently by such as Matthew Parris or Fi Glover(ha!) are media types who never miss the chance to take the piss (I wonder why).

The other consists of those, largely musicians, who avoid the "scene", especially incestuous "f*lkie" gatherings, and get on with playing and discovering musics without boundaries. There are some Mudcat members who fall into the second category but these are hounded and abused constantly by GEFFs if ever they peek above the parapet.

Gawd, I'm getting bored . . .

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:19 PM

Doug Chadwick, I did not "quibble" with your reference. I quoted two authoritative sources who confirmed the correct term. I always think it better in a discussion to use the correct terminology, don't you? It saves on later confiusion. Not.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:27 PM

Well Diane, that is probably the biggest load of bollocks you have ever posted, and you have posted some bollocks in your time.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:29 PM

Oh and Azizi wonders if the way the thread has turned out was my intention. Well, yes in a way. I just wondered how many people take things absolutely literally. Like (as I said about halfway through), when they read the label on a tin of beans that says "stand in a pan of boiling water for 10 minutes", they leap immediately up onto the cooker. Rather a lot, it seems. The BBC is wasting its time making programmes such as The Write Stuff for such as they.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:41 PM

Then, of course, there are those who wear their underpants on their heads.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM

Firstly, Anonymous Guest, you are not permitted to address me so familiarly. I know not who you are. I am Ms Easby to you.

Secondly, if ever I talk bollocks (and I do not concede that on this occasion I was), I am entitled to do so and will always sign it.

You confuse "stuff you cannot comprehend" with "bollocks". A common error among those too cowardly to put their name to what comes out of their mouth.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:24 PM

Well, dear, I can address you just as I please, the fact that you know not who I am is neither here nor there. Bollocks is Bollocks, no matter how incomprehensible it may be, and, darlin' it is all Bollocks.

I don't quite know just where you seem to have picked up this enormous chip on your shoulder, but it might be an idea for you to read what you write, or perhaps think a little before hitting the send button - yes?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:29 PM

At least Diane takes responsibility for what she posts and doesn't hide behind the old "Guest", "Anonymous Guest" and the miriad permutations, which, as Joe Offer recently said, is to not take responsibility for your postngs.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

Well, I could tell you who I am, but then I would have to shoot you.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

From Anonymous Guest:

Well, dear, I can address you just as I please

No you bloody well can't. I am NOT your (or anyone else's) "dear" or "darlin'" and it is highly sexist and trivialising to use such terms.

As for your second paragraph, unless you can dredge up anything on topic to add, FUCK OFF, you patronising prat.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:41 PM

...........and 'Mole Catchers Apprentice' is your name then?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:45 PM

Charming!

Now thats not very ladylike at all. I am deeply offended, and am seriously considering not posting any more.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:47 PM

My real name is scattered all over Mudcat, so, please don't try and pass off the responsibility, which is yours, onto me. Personally, I agree with Diane, you are a patronising prat( I think you do it for the effect more than anything)..and you know what? I've 'seen' that patronising attitude somewhere before...now let me think...... :-D

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:49 PM

Go on then - 'ave a guess...........

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:51 PM

OK. Trolling over for tonight.

Just me being a bit mischievous.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM

Doesn't Joe's message say something about deleting all Anon Guest stuff from midnight (his time I suppose)

Diane I would have thought you could have controlled your fellings rather better.

Ok, I have said that before (in several ways) but I live in hope.

Dave

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM

Oh so it's THAT Dave. You know me not at all if you think I'll ever put up with that sort of mindless blokishness.

And I'll be "felling" anyone else who tries it on.

Load of pillocks.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:01 PM

...........and 'Mole Catchers Apprentice' is your name then?

No, and Snuffy is not my real name, but ...

a) it's the only name I use on here

b) it's registered to me, so nobody else can use it.

Which is a bit different from being "Anonymous Guest" or any other name you care to use.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:05 PM

I am a registered member, but I can't remember my login password and having just changed both my laptop and my email address, I can no longer log in, which is a pain in the proverbial, but it does give some opportunity for some fun.

Some people do wind up very easily.

---

Hi- visitors are welcome to post as guests at Mudcat, but we expect everyone to use a consistent name and to conduct themselves in a civil manner. If for some reason you're unable to reset your membership cookie, you may post as a guest, but you should use your regular user name. "Anonymous Guest" isn't an acceptable name, and neither is your conduct (but you knew that). You may contact me by e-mail for your login information. Give me your full name and your previous e-mail address, so I can be reasonably sure you are who you say you are.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,GEFF and Proud of it
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

Some people do wind up very easily.

Do I detect signs of a new sport?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:15 PM

'Some people do wind up very easily'

this isthe old old excuse, as if some people need it, to be insufferably rude.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:20 PM

Diane what I know about you I have learnt from this forum.

I could feel your explosion building as I read the post that caused it.

I've stated my feelings about the way express yourself on here.

I'll keep saying it too.

Dave

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 05:16 PM

It seems to me that the use of the word "wavers" is an attempt to introduce a new term where one is not needed. They have invariably been known as handkerchiefs up to now, and this thread is the first time I (and others, it appears) have come across the term.

The Morris Offspring may be fit, and good, and can no doubt dance the socks off the rest of us. But they are, by definition, young and therefore, by definition, don't know what they're talking about :)

Lionel Bacon's "Handbook of Morris Dances" undoubtedly is seen as authoritative, and refers to "handkerchiefs".

Sorry Diane, I beg your pardon, Ms Easby, but if the term "wavers" is in use at all then it is definitely a minority usage. Most morris dancers call them "handkerchiefs". If the Morris Offspring or the Morris Federation choose to call them something else, that's up to them, but it's not the usual word. I fear you've been misinformed.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:59 PM

In general I present processional dances first (unless a dance is distinctively a leading-off dance,in which case it may follow the set dances), stick-dances second, then handkerchief dances and finally jigs.

A Handbook of Morris Dancing, Lionel Bacon (c) 1974 (but according to the Foreword "This book was first prepared in 1951")

The Women's Morris Federation was formed in 1975 and became the Morris Federation in 1983. Most of Morris Offspring were probably born later than that.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 04:17 AM

Having spent a few, but happy, minutes with a tape measure, it seems I have been guilty of overstating the size of my equipment (it's a man thing).

Twenty inches is nearer the mark than thirty for the size of a morris napkin: the sets we had made 20 years ago were almost exactly 19", but the new pairs made last year are slightly larger, at 500mm (still just under 20"). This gives a diagonal distance of about 28", which, even with my short legs, would not quite touch the ground unless I were to dance barefoot.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 04:57 AM

The cookie monster is on the prowl. That was me.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

OK, a bit of casual googling has found a few references to Cotswold Morris handkerchiefs being called "wavers". However the term seems to be more usually applied to the decorated sticks used by North West sides.

I would still disagree with Diane's original implication that "wavers" is the correct term, rather than handkerchiefs. I would be interested to know when the term first started to be used. If it's favoured by the Morris Federation I wonder if it's because women don't have suitable handkerchiefs :-)

Cecil Sharp's Morris Book calls them "handkerchiefs".

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

According to the History of Great Western Morris, they use the term "wavers" for their morris linen in order to distinguish it from "hankies" which are merely, well, handkerchief-sized.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:11 AM

Never heard of 'wavers' in my 10 years in a 'traditional' cotswold team, although old photos show longer hankies compared to today, maybe we just produce less snot? I blame global warming.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM

Well in my over 25 years involvement with North West Morris as dancer, musician and friend to many in traditional teams from the actual North West I've never heard of sticks being called "wavers", nor have I heard of slings being called "wavers" either although there are one or two other names for these items of equipment.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Kosmo
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 10:48 AM

At the somewhat tender age of 19, I consider myself perfectly normal, and I love morris dancing. I find it wonderful at the solstice and again to dance the summer in, I play music quite happily along with them. Plus after hanging about at rock fests and concerts, the folk morris clothing is A LOT less stupid, for one morris dancers can co-ordinate, and look cool.

At leasty they don't wear those horrendous velour tracksuits that apparantly "normal" people wear.

I personally think that it's shortsighted television programming by stiffs in suits (formerly known as "the MAN") that just don't want people to have fun anymore - it's the same story with the stuppid music liscnece thing. Live music - I reckon - is a human right!!!!

Anyway, what happened to teaching kids to do traditional dancing in schools - it's a better idea than sending them to cadets for a national service style training! Being at uni in Glasgow i can say that all the scotish students all learned their traditional dances as children.
This'd change some stupid stereitypes. *rant over*

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

Neovo, I'm not suggesting that "wavers" is a common, or correct, term in NW Morris either. Just that when I googled "morris wavers" there seemed to be far more references to NW than Cotswold. The most common reference however seemed to be to Carnival Morris, which is of course quite different.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:00 AM

Back to the top of the thread. Were the IOW morris men dancing Vandals ?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:43 PM

what is the world coming to,handkerchief dances being called wavers.
Newspeak has hit the world of Morris. what is next?
Baldricks will become Blackadders.I suppose.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:51 AM

Blackadder Standard Kit doesn't seem to include a baldrick.

An addition to the "what do we call handkerchiefs?" section, linked handkerchief dances were often known in sides I danced with as "knotted snotties". I danced with a number of sides over 26 years, and still know plenty of dancers, but this thread is the first time I have encountered the term "wavers" in this context.

I heard and enjoyed the broadcast that gave rise to the thread, amazing that one broadcaster's humorous invention should inspire such vitriolic outpourings.

Reminds me that I once heard someone say that, provided they all stood up, you could fit the entire world population onto the Isle of Wight (Hm, connection there?) In minutes there was a whole set of arguments in progress: why should they all stand (couldn't they sit on each others knees), would the island sink, why the IoW, what would be left if they each took away a grain of sand for a souvenir, why would anyone want to go there, who says we're all going on holiday together, I can't take any more leave this year, does your mother have to come, she's going to the West Indies (Jamaica? No...)

Where is this going? Dunno, but not the IoW. Maybe we could sometimes do to take a look at ourselves and lighten up a touch.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:33 AM

That's because they're not a morris team, they're a sword and step dance team.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:51 AM

nomad

you could fit the entire world population onto the Isle of Wight

The argument I heard against it was, that with the terrible ferry service, you'd never get them all across.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:49 PM

A Morris Offspring person told me to call them wavers. She also told me not to attach beards to any of the dancers in the animation I was making

I think I know the one you mean. Bless.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM

Well, my singing gets me a restraining order....

RtS

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM

Well if you're coming over to the Island Roger, you'd better bring your own ASBO, we have run out over here.
I think Eyelander has cornered the market!!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: steve_harris
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

Cecil Sharp's Morris Book calls them "handkerchiefs".

Perhaps he was trying not to be elitist? :-)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:39 AM

Ah, Miskin Man, my minders normally only allow me to sing abroad, does IOW count, I wonder? However, I note that you and Eye Lander have taken the precaution of being off-island for my visit!

RtS
(face made for radio; voice made for mime)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

Last Saturday I was talking to a member of Morris Offspring who had returned for the day to dance with our (Ring) side, whence he sprang.

I asked him about "wavers" and he laughed out loud at the very idea of calling them anything but handkerchiefs. He told me Morris Offspring had had long and sometimes heated discussions about whether or not to dance with handkerchiefs, but they had never discussed calling them something else.

Which all leaves me very puzzled as to how and where Diane got her information about "wavers"

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:18 AM

Had you bothered to read the thread you'd have seen that the information about wavers came as a result of a specific inquiry to he Morris Federation. As the Offsprings are culled from a number of different Cotwolds side, doubtless different members are used to different terms. The woman member who told me that the term "wavers" was preferred came from a Fed side (natch). Possibly the Ring has Man Reasons for liking "handkerchiefs" and maybe one will come along and explain (if interesting). What Morris Offspring has debated hotly is whether to use bells and last time I say them, they did.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,allan
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:25 AM

Well we're a Ring side and whenever we refer to hankies one (and only one) of our men says they should be called wavers. it's not something worth arguing about in my mind.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

Well, quite. The thread is actually about a mythical, spoof side (provenance and composition unknown) who collected ASBOs for unlicensed dancing, whereupon several comprehension-challenged participants took this literally, having entirely missed the literary quiz significance, I think we can safely conclude that the plot is well and truly lost.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:34 PM

My source was quite clear that he has never heard any of his fellow Offspring members (be they male or female, Ring or Fed) ever refer to "wavers".

I fail to see how this can be squared with your assertion that wavers is the preferred term in Morris Offspring. You can't both be right. And I know whom I believe, having known him since he was in junior school.