Digitization of traditional communities?

Subject: BS: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: MegW
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:31 PM

Hello all,

I'm an ethnomusicology student at Tufts University and I'm starting to work on my Master's thesis. I'm interested in the impact the Internet has had upon the traditional folk music scene. If anyone would like to share their thoughts on the matter, I'd love to hear your views.

Specifically, I'd like to know a little about how you discovered sites like Mudcat, your reasons for joining and using such sites, and how membership in a community like this has affected or informed or encouraged your own interests.

Thank you in advance!

Subject: RE: BS: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:40 PM

Meg, Welcome to the Mudcat! This site has been hopping on the Internet for over ten years, now. The questions you ask have been covered many, many times. There are a myriad of threads in which you could mine for all kinds of answers. The way to do that is to enter a search term, i.e. "How many Mudcatters" (that will find you a few of why we came here, etc.) in the box at the top of the thread titles and then use the drop-down menu to choose how far back in time you want to go. Then, again, I am sure many folks will come in and answer your questions and/or update their old answers. Either way, you have come to a rich mine with much to share.

kat

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: MegW
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:52 PM

Thank you, Kat!

I've actually had this site on my personal bookmarks for several years and I've popped around from time to time but my own experience and knowledge are severely limited so I've never posted anything before.

I really wanted to make sure I would get the most current set of opinions, so I thought it would be best to start up a new thread, even at the risk of re-hashing a lot of the old discussions. Also, I'd really like to make sure people are willing to let me quote them in my thesis, if necessary (so...let that be a warning to you all, I guess! :D).

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:34 AM

Hi, Meg-
I have been at Mudcat since January, 1997. Before that, I was a regular for about a year at the rec.music.folk and alt.music.lyrics newsgroups, and before that a Peter, Paul, and Mary discussion forum on Prodigy that discussed a variety of folk music.

I've learned a lot through this participation, and advanced from Peter, Paul, and Mary fan to a more sophisticated appreciation of folk music.

I've made many online friends around the world, and I've met a good number of them in person - some are virtual legends of folk music.

And one very special thing: with the Internet, I can find folk music wherever I go. I went to England for three weeks and had music every day; and I've had folk music experiences all over the united states.

Good luck with your research.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Bert
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:38 AM

Ah Meg. You say    ...my own experience and knowledge are severely limited...

Well that applies to us all, especially at first. The thing about Mudcat is that we all know just a little, but if we put it all together it amounts to a lot.

I think that most of us found Mudcat looking for lyrics and stayed for the wealth of knowledge and the good people here.

Welcome aboard. Don't be shy, we all know something that nobody else does.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:56 AM

G'day Meg
I've only recently started becoming involved with the local folk scene so am still learning just what the internet has to offer in that regard.
What lead me here was a successful google search for some lyrics. Once I started browsing through the forum I discovered the rich source of other information being discussed.
Through the forum just last week I discovered the magic of midi files and writing software.
Later in the year I'll be visiting UK (from Australia), and while planning that trip, using the internet, I discovered that folk festivals in Warwick and Cambridge will be on at the time. Thanks to the internet I can book tickets, hotels etc in plenty of time.
I am confident that nearer to the time I can get good information from the forum about club sessions in the areas I will be visiting.
Locally, the Brisbane folk scene shares information via the "Folk Rag" magazine which is available on line as well as in hard copy.
Probably I've only just found the tip of the iceberg regarding folk and internet use - certainly it is invaluable for sharing information and making sometimes obscure traditional work accessible.

Mal

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:57 AM

I joined Mudcat in 2002 after continually hearing it praised by a friend who joined in 1998, a year or 2 after Mudcat started. It's a wonderful place for belonging & I've posted to threads started by Mudcatters in times of happiness & sadness, & I've also contributed funds to assist Max in the running of Mudcat, & also contributed to other projects.

I'm a chorus singer, not a performer & have found words to lots of songs & poems, also a good amount of silliness that I've shared with friends & colleagues who love wordplay (don't forget to check out the BS treads), & met & made some friends, & many cyberfriends.

Some of the Mudcatters who have come to my part of Australia have performed in my folk club, others have shared sessions with us cos they've turned up at the wrong date!

In the last week I've been spending time with 2 visiting Americans, who are not Mudcatters, but were were introduced to me by an interstate Mudcatter who met them at a festival. One of her friends saw them with instruments at the airport, said hello & told them about the festival They'll be singing a couple of songs at my club soon, & also attending a singing session the following day.

Ozcatters are a bit of a casual lot & even tho we intend to meet at our National Folk Festival, we've never managed to get a pic of the whole lot of us together.

I also have 75 Mudcatter CDs (so far). I knew 2 Oz performers before they joined Mudcat & had vaguely heard of 1 UK performer, but I would never had known about the others without Mudcat.   

sandra

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:25 AM

A few incoherent thoughts:

At the Australian National Folk festival this year I met someone (a volunteer) who came from Cumbria in the UK - he volunteered over the internet.

Songs travel much faster now, as communities such as Mudcat pick them up and propagate them across the world. By the same token, it is likely (my guess) that songs have fewer local variations nowadays, as one can be readily "corrected" from half way across the globe. So, some sort of homogenisation may possibly be at work.

Academic knowledge about songs (provenance etc) is also more readily available. It's only the lazy ones nowadays that will attribute a contemporary song with known author to "anon". Depending on your definition of folk, this makes it harder for new songs to be acknowledged as "folk" or certainly as "traditional", when they are not.

In my case, as a budding singer/songwriter, the internet and Mudcat specifically gave me a ready audience and within it a kind of "fan club" (and I use the word with caution as Mudcatters are an independent lot!), which may well have helped make gigs more viable numbers-wise, and certainly has given me the opportunity for many additional gigs further afield.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:25 AM

George, was this Fiddler?

Fiddler posted on the 2008 National thread, saying he was volunterring, then was never heard from again.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:58 AM

Don't know his Mudcat handle or if he had any, Sandra. I think his name was Dave - he MCed in the Trocadero.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:15 AM

Well whole areas of the UK scene have been well documented via song and dance researchers and collectors and many CDs in mp3/WAV format now exist and of course vinyl collections are increasingly becoming digitised!

Online work to bring a wealth of traditional material to a wider audience is ongoing. Hands on work to teach the very practical skills in dance song writing and music and traditional songs is of course invaluable and online adverts essential to supplement normal snailmail methods

I also am able to keep up to date with happenings all over the UK and further a field too via the mudcat as well as helping with song lyrics and provenace in particular Yorkshire

Ray

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:57 AM

I joined, aparently, in May 2000 but I know I posted as a guest before then. Abby Sale suggested I check Mudcat out following some to-ing and fro-ing on one of the newsgroups about Hob y Deri Dando and Cosher Baily (if memory serves). I now find it very useful for words, tunes, historical information, etc.

I think digitization is something we can either use well or badly. Work that I'm doing in traditional music will involve more digitization in the future, partly because the Arts Council of Wales is prioritizing New Technologies for the next couple of years, and partly because old-style print/artifact distribution has too many drawbacks for a sector so small and under-funded. Right now I'm looking at how we can use Digital Storytelling more in our community work. I think that's something that took root in California but the BBC has also been developing it here in Wales.

sian

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:16 AM

It just struck me that I should have also added ...

It might be worth looking at how Mudcat interacts - clashes, dovetails, etc. - with other types of electronic communities. As I mentioned above, I came to Mudcat from one of the newsgroups (can't remember which) and I no long participate in those; I found Mudcat more user-friendly, technologically speaking. Recently, we've had threads about Mudcatters on myspace, facebook, Second Life, etc and, in terms of your research, I would suggest that is interesting that, in those new social networks, we still identify ourselves as Catters. There must be sociological significance in that.

Digitization, and technology in general, also has cost implications which might need to be considered in your research. (Depending on how you've stated your initial proposal.) I imagine Max is still the prime subsidizer of Mudcat but others make direct financial contributions (i.e. Friends of Mudcat UK), others contribute to the Mudcat Auction, some sell t-shirts/buttons - that is to say, that we have built, in our virtual community, structures which are very similar to 'real world' clubs and associations.

sian

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM

Welcome, Meg. I'm Charlie Stenger. Born and bred in Cleethorpes of German French Sunderland descent. My wife and I now lve in Dunfermline, where I attend Carnegie College and she attends to grandchildren. I've been a fairly regular 'catter since November 2000, when I enquired about Leadbelly, and, whilst not a 'Folk' fan as such, enjoy (usually) the banter and info like you get 'ere. I have recently cocked up reviving an ancient thread but nobody cares. However, many people care if a Troll or Flamer starts being unpleasant or unnecessarily vitriolic. Even some of the old hands (you'll soon see who they are) occasionally get a bit steamed up - try that thread re Ghastly Tradition etc) Bu anyway enjoy youyrself and at all costs retain sense of humor.
All the best from fB. Charlie

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM

Hi Meg and welcome. I'm relatively new myself (less than two years here). It can get a bit fraught but there are enough positives.

One thing that may be directly relevant to what you're looking for concerns a (largely) traditional singaround at the Beech pub, Chorlton, Manchester UK. The idea was first mooted (by Mudcatter 'Les in Chorlton') on Mudcat and the forum has been one of the main channels of communication by which dates have been set and people involved have kept in touch. This has meant that people further afield (eg 'Sedayne' and 'Rapunzel') have been made aware of it, as well as people not involved in local folk clubs (eg me!). It also means we can all be kept informed without the usual tedious round of phone calls - it also potentially means that any visiting Mudcat user who happened to be in town would be aware of it.

In a way, stuff like this is far more useful (and potentially plays far more of a role in keeping the music alive and meaningful) than any number of circular threads about 'the meaning of folk'.

Good luck with your thesis.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:58 AM

I only started using Mudcat and looking at other Internet sites for Folk Music & Song once I got a Broadband contection, but had been an e-mail user for 10 years prior to that.

I think the Broadband has contributed more than anything - now I can access anything both to view and listen to - it has made a huge difference.

Tim Radford
http://www.myspace.com/timradford and http://www.timradford.com/

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM

Dear Meg--

As much as I remember, I first learned about Mudcat by word of mouth from another musician.

I'm part of "Chicken Charlie's California Minstrels," which attempts to stay focused on pre-1901 Anglo-American traditional/"roots" music.

I have learned quite a bit about alternate tunings, modes, and instruments, and of course the occasional missing word set. (If it's not on DT, Sorcha will undoubtedly find it in under 2.3 seconds.)

Mainly I'm interested in the musical aspect; a techie I am not. Someday I will seriously study that side of it, but I have to clean the garage and walk the dogs first.

The BS threads are a blessing and a curse. It really is healthy to debate most of these issues (the significant ones), as I find myself re-thinking fondly embraced opinions. The down side is the amount of admittedly uninformed commentary you have to sift through sometimes to get to the good stuff. Posts that start, "I don't know anything about this topic, but let me set you straight ...." used to amuse me, but it's getting old. Come to think of it, so am I, so I probably do the same thing on occasion.

Naaaah. No way.

Anyway, welcome, good luck with your project, and enjoy ....

CC

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: MegW
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:47 PM

Thank you all! This project is going to be a great deal of fun! (The backlog of threads I'd like to read is looking pretty scary, though...)

Can any of you estimate roughly how much time you spend discussing things on Mudcat versus discussing similar matters with other musicians in person?

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

I don't have a lot of face time with other musicans, mostly because I don't have the time or ability to get out and around--and, of course, a lot of the places I was out and around to have long since disappeared. So in terms of contact, probably 60-70 percent of my contact with musicians is here, however, when it comes down to discussions about musical projects, maybe 10 percent is here.

Oh, and feel free to ask your own questions, even if the subject has been broached before--the "mine" of information often meanders around questions and topics until people wander off to other things, without ever really coming to a succinct conclusion. It is, after all, just conversation--

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:19 PM

Meg: Found Mudcat in 1999 or so by way of googling for folk songs and being referred to the Digital Tradition here. I'm a dulcimer player with an interest in traditional Appalachian music, but live in Attleboro, MA, something less than a hotbed of oldtime music. For me, Mudcat and everythingdulcimer.com have been godsends, allowing me to plug into a folk community from my home rather than having to drive long distances. I suspect that some of the nearby folk music communities are also bonded to some degree by Internet communication.-- Pinetop Slim

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:32 PM

Hello Meg,

I joined Mudcat about two years ago, though I have had it bookmarked for somewhat longer. Like many I found it through looking for song words, but did not take a lot of notice of the forums at first. Maybe I should have left it like that <g>

One thing I have noticed in the last couple of years has been the almost explosion of on line resources for tunes and songs from the UK. Examples,

Bodleian Library Broadside Collection is online: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/ballads.htm

FARNE project has manuscripts of tune books and sound clips of Northumbrian musicians: http://www.asaplive.com/FARNE/Home.cfm

Village Music project which putting manuscript books online in abc format: http://www.village-music-project.org.uk/

etc.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

All the resources Tootler mentions are much more than two years old (and all three have some very serious usability problems that their administrators aren't willing to address).

For me, the great recent success has been YouTube. I mainly play Scottish music, and some Middle Eastern stuff. YouTube is pretty useless for Scottish material (or rather, the Scottish trad community has been useless at exploiting YouTube) but for Middle Eastern music it's wonderful. Want to find out how to play a balaban? Look up a clip of Alihan Samedov and watch his fingers. You can find music videos for an extraordinary range of cultures there.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:37 PM

OK Jack, I'll grant you that the sites I mentioned have been available for more than two years, and thinking back I have been using some of them for longer. Perhaps I should have considered my words a little more carefully as someone always insists on taking you literally. While "a couple of..." literally means "two", it is frequently used in the sense of "a few" - so please don't be quite so pedantic.

I also grant you that they are not perfect and you have to be a little persistent if you are going to come to terms with their quirks. However that does not invalidate the underlying point that the internet is making available material that was much harder to get access to in the past.

I have certainly used both FARNE and the Bodleian sites to find digitised versions of original manuscripts on several occasions, something I would have found much harder to do in the past.

YouTube, fantastic resource that it is, is not exactly perfect either.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:30 PM

I wasn't point-scoring. There is a connection between the age of those sites and their problems. They were among the first of their type and what often happens in that situation is that you can't tell them anything - with the Bodleian the design was set in stone far too early and with far too little resources allocated to fixing design problems once it was running; with FARNE there are umpteen layers of local government bureaucracy making it impossible to communicate the nightmarish crapness of their design to anybody with the knowhow to do anything about it; and the VMP are off on a planet of their own, seemingly unable to perceive problems that are obvious to almost anybody but them.

What brought this home a couple of years ago was when I tried to check over the VMP transcription of the Atkinson MS, both the make it into correct ABC and to fix errors and omissions. That meant having the whole MS on my computer so I could quickly flip through it in parallel with the ABC file. Just try downloading the whole thing from FARNE so you can do that. Just try. I think I gave up about a third of the way through. There are duplicated and missing page images but I doubt anybody but me has ever located them. It would be quicker for me to take a two-hour train ride train down to the library that's got the original and work from that than persist with that interface.

Subject: RE: Digitization of traditional communities?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:43 PM

Meg - welcome aboard!

I first heard about Mudcat at Whitby festival (UK) in 2000 - Graham Moore was running a workshop about internet folk resources, and Dick Greenhaus was in the audience, so Graham asked him to talk about the Digital Tradition.

Then at Whitby in 2001 I discovered that Mudcat was also a social network, because Tyke took me along to the Ducks' barbecue... and I joined as a member once I got back home.

I've now met lots of people who are Mudcatters, and from other countries, including an Australian Shiny Bum Singer whose mother was born in the road where I now live!

Kitty