BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?

Subject: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:47 PM

I've decided that, due to a lack of proper outrage, the Texas Mormon thing does rate its own thread. Hope y'all agree...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:51 PM

I have nothing to say. Nothing appropriate that is. So, in the words of GWB, "No comment."

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:54 PM

Beats his VP's "So?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:58 PM

I'd like to beat his VP, period.

Foolin' around aside, your question is cogent and important, Mrrzy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:59 PM

see / listen to this thread too!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:01 PM

Yeah, this group got chased out of Colorado at some point, after they had to leave Utah...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:06 PM

Has anyone here read the autobiography of Elizabeth (last name escapes me) who was reared in Jeffs' church and community? She escaped with her 8 children a couple of years ago.

I bought the book and read it then gave it to my sister. I told her that we were just fortunate that the church we were raised in - the Amish- is not into that kind of thing. If they were, they would rule very much the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:06 PM

Ummmm, I'll get back to this thread tomorrow, thank you...

But my inital reaction, based on history, is that Waco and Ruby Ridge will be entering this discussion at some point in time...

But until I have more facts, I'll just lay low...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:14 PM

Don't know about Elizabeth Ebbie but this woman tells of her escape on you tube

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:18 PM

Apparently there hasn't been any violence like Waco. At least not yet. And they got a LOT of people out of there - around 500 last I heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 10:44 PM

Emma, thank you for the link. I am listening to the full version at ForA TV. She is a courageous young woman.

I have been reading some of the files of Jeffs...what they make young girls submit to is sickening and should not be tolerated anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 10:49 PM

I know a little, having just read Under the Banner of Heaven (and recognizing almost all of the names in the news), and also having been to Colorado City and Hurricane two weeks ago. So I don't think I can share anyone's outrage. Try googling Colorado City Lost Boys and read, e.g. the Salon.com article. Texas just raised the marital age in Texas from 14 to 16 precisely because of this group's arrival. It's a terrible upheaval and trauma for these children and their largely confused moms with mitigating circumstances, but it's not about "sex," or staying out of people's bedrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 10:51 PM

I've been reading about this for several days. It is so damned depressing, the lives that these men have subjected their daughters and wives to. Good job to the young woman who called it in; I just hope they don't find her in a shallow grave on the property.

link to Google News.

Those men must have thought they died and gone to heaven, the compound they were running out there. Hang them all by the short hairs, and that's just to start with.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 11:23 PM

Well, according to the full talk which Carolyn Jessup gave at the Tattered Cover bookstore, in the link provided, they are just as brutal, in some ways, with their young boys. She said as the boys grow and become competition with the older men who are husbands to so many, they are literally kicked out of the community. Told their fathers reject them, they are not worthy of god, etc. and most end up on the streets in big cities. Her own son was taken out of school at 12 and made to work construction. She said one year the leader kicked out over 100 boys as they came "of age" which became younger and younger, some as young as nine years old. And their mothers have no say in it, of course.

May she and others of her courage continue to be safe and speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 11:26 PM

By some complex, convoluted rationalizations, some men have been able to convert their desire to have multiple sex partners... especially young ones, into superficially justified situations where they can live their fantasies.
I'm sure that most of them have told themselves "it's ok" enough times and in enough ways that they emotionally believe it. The trappings of religion are, and have always been, one of the easiest ways to convince impressionable women to join them. Often, the full implications of the influence of the 'church' are not apparent to the women/girls until after they are trapped and 'married' and/or pregnant.

It is too bad that it is so hard to prove that laws have been broken, but organizations like Warren Jeffs' are adept at hiding the truth AND intimidating those who might try to leave.

I hope this case is the beginning of the end for such groups, but I fear it will only change the methods for the next attempt to acquire a private harem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Janie
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:56 AM

It would not be inappropriate for this thread to be linked to the recent thread discussing prostitution. Different sides of the same coin regarding attitudes, power, exploitation.

It ain't about sex. It's about control and power.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:06 AM

Exactly. Also some of the discussions of modern slavery.

And I'm glad the remarks about the treatment of the sons came up. That hasn't been discussed in the main articles I've seen so far. I'll have to look farther.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:35 AM

Attitudes to sex and death in the USA seem a little strange sometimes - Mainstream US film classification seems to regard death and violence as OK, but sex is not to be tolerated. Perhaps it does come down to an oddly Old Testament view of the world.
And yet there is a multi-billion dollar industry in the San Fernando valley selling sex to the world. Most odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM

'Attitudes to sex and death in the USA seem a little strange sometimes.'

You are mistaking the movie industry for reality. Unlike, Hollywood movies, the lives of the 300,000,000 people of the U.S.A. cannot be summed up in a sentence or two.

===============
'It ain't about sex. It's about control and power.'

I suspect it's about both - sex and power. With some people, the less their minds are operating, the more the substitute sex. And you've got to admit, the leaders of this group must have to tell their minds (consciences) to 'shut up' quite a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:31 AM

The reason [unusual] sex is worse than death is that, when you are outed, you are less likely to be elected to public office.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:31 AM

It was strange to read in a recent report on the contest for the Democratic nomination the women of America described as a 'minority group' in a journal.

It would appear within this cult that they are a clasically repressed 'minority' too.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:33 AM

Splinter groups from the LDS Church (which isn't exactly free of pateralistic chauvinism) have quite a history of sex and violence. James Jesse Strang's "kingdom" and his eventual murder on Beaver Island, Michigan is but one example. The LDS Church itself can be held responsible for, among other things, the Mountain Meadows Massacre; Porter Rockwell is still a name that will conjure up dark history.

You might take a peek at John Lee's "Mormonism Revealed" -- Lee was the man eventually executed for the Mountain Meadows killings and an early follower and friend of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

"Attitudes to sex and death in the USA seem a little strange sometimes - Mainstream US film classification seems to regard death and violence as OK, but sex is not to be tolerated"

Where do you get this crap? Who thinks for you???

You seem to confuse the FCC and the MPAA for the USA.   A handful of people who make supposed "rules" are not the voice of Americans anymore than Queen Lizzie speaks for the average Brit.

The USA loves sex just as much and probably much more than most countries that still seem to be suffering from Victorian ideals.

It also seems that every erotic novel that came out of England dealt with bondage or young schoolgirls. What is up with that? Should we come away with an impression that is the UK view of sex - equating it with violence? You cannot judge a culture solely by the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:44 AM

"Attitudes to sex and death in the USA seem a little strange sometimes - Mainstream US film classification seems to regard death and violence as OK, but sex is not to be tolerated"

Where do you get this crap? Who thinks for you???

That's the whole point, Ron - people in the US seem to think it's OK for parents to allow their children to DIE for their faith, but if they're going to have SEX, oh no, we have to intervene. That's why I started this thread - you don't have to think, you just have to observe, to find this.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

You're referring to a resistance to medical intervention by groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM

I disagree Mrrzy. I don't know what parents you are observing, but I don't think it is a fair comparison. This situation in Texas is not an example of the thinking of most Americans. I also think you are wrong to make an assumption that parents have to "intervene" when it comes to sex. Intervene and educate are two different items.   You have to observe more than a handful of instances that the media jump on to realize that most parents are more concerned about having their children develop the tools to make choices that they can live, or die with.   

We are not a mainstream Puritan society no matter what the media tries to display. Look around, you just have to observe wider examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:16 AM

Unless you're willing to build a very strong and complex foundation for arguing about religious cults guided by the predatory practices of dominant males AT THE SAME TIME you want to argue about deluded parents who hope wish fulfillment (prayer) will cure ill children, I suggest you consider dropping one of these avenues of discussion.

You may see a similarity, stemming from anti-social religious practices, but that doesn't mean that you can pass one over the other in a general conversation and have any meaningful outcomes.

In My Humble Academic Opinion

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:35 AM

Ron - see the thread, Religious Tolerance or Child Abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:45 AM

Why, I can ask, have then English equated sex with money? "I spent in her" is quite common English writings.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 11:57 AM

As Rapaire said, so-called mainstream Mormonism is patriarchal also. I could go on with some personal anecdotes but would rather not. I would suggest reading From Housewife to Heretic, an early (1960s) book by a woman who got out of an LDS marriage. It may sound a little dated now but it certainly spells out the subservience of women etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM

The reason sex is "worse than death" in some parts of our culture is that sex brings about new life and growth, as well as lots of pleasurable noises.

Some people are dedicated to the curtailment and suppressing of life, and would like to see life on our planet brought to judgement and The Rapture as quickly as possible. This has nothing to do with the metaphysical explanatuions they offer in defense, however; it has to do with their own internal conditions of bitter, withered, overwhelmed, or deeply angry out-of-touchness, their incapacity for joy, and their loss of integrity. Given those conditiosn within, any god-for-hire who will forward those death-oriented postulates is as good as any other. When people harbor uninspected and unfaceable core beliefs, they are desperate to find some framework that will explain their turbulent condition.

That's my two cent's worth. That and a dollar will buy you a doughnut. Aren't you glad you asked?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:29 PM

I looked at the thread, but again I don't see the connection. Extremists do not represent the majority of the people in this country.    As Amos mentioned, it is "some parts of our culture" and that does not represent the prevailing attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:36 PM

The other factor which falsifies this picture is that sex is a rough subject for anyone who has been through puberty's tumultuous advent, and because of this, a large per centage of the people who survived adolescence have some sort of button on the subject -- they get silly about it, or they get embarassed or frozenat the wheel, and so on.

These buttons make for easy electrification, which in turn sells newspapers (or brings viewers) and thus the nmedia learn that if you want lots of eyeballs, you push the sex button loudly and hard. Some do it subtly, some do it extravagantly. A relatively minor scandal thus laid low a good state governor, for example. The magnification of false values brought about by media is one of the key vectors int the cultural distortion.

It is an easy mistake to make to think that what is presented on mass media muSt, in fact, be what one's peers are hearing and thinking, and therefore there is a strong inclination to take on board the attitudes presented, without noticing they are just as hevily biased as any advertisement.


Q

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 12:55 PM

Something I've wondered about:

A few years ago Justin Timberlake ripped open Janet Jackson's dress and exposed her breast on national televison -- during halftime at the Super Bowl.

People were irate about the breast being exposed, but I heard no one complain about the violence involved. Why wasn't Timberlake arrested for battery, at the very least?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,mrr
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:03 PM

Right on, Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM

I'm not sure what is 'proper' outrage but personally I find the original subject of this thread about as outrageous as it comes.

Investigators Also Found a 16-Year-Old Girl Who Had Given Birth 4 Times......

But El Dorado, Texas, Mayor John Nikolank told ABC News that investigators did not search the compound earlier because they needed evidence that girls were being abused. "This is America. You don't just go in on a perception that they are doing something wrong without any proof," he said.

"I think Texas is setting a precedent for what can be done and hopefully our government will become braver and attempt to help and bring these children out. They're slaves," said Rowenna Erickson, co-founder of Tapestry Against Polygamy.

ABC News today

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:13 PM

If a Jerry Springer show were to have an episode about polygamy, the crowd would be louder and the rankings would be higher than an episode about refusing medical care, even though both are about accommodating religious views that deviate from custom and law. I think Mrrzy's point is that the differential would be greater in the US than in other countries – the prurient fixation would be greater here. This may or may not be true, and we could only guess, using our own biases. However, I agree with SRS and say that the officials planning this raid could not take such abstractions into practical decision-making about what to do for the children now at issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:28 PM

"People were irate about the breast being exposed"

Really? Are you sure about that?

Do you know how many millions of people watched that Super Bowl here in the United States? Do you know how many people complained? Of the people who complained, do you know how many were part of an orchestrated campaign to register complaints?

There is a Time Magazine poll that shows that 65% of the public believe the response to Jackson's other boob (not her brother) was an over reaction.

You can look it all up.

Nipplegate was turned into a controversy by the FCC and the Parents Television Council - a conservative watchdog group. The media had a field day.   The conservatives lapped it up and turned our rights into a farce, and now censorship has everyone running scared. However, that does not mean that everyone - or the majority agrees with this.   One small mind can change policy, but that does not change reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

Sorry- I just looked it up and I was quite wrong about the author. It wasn't an Elizabeth at all, but Carolyn Jessop. It is good reading, by the way, but depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM

"Those men must have thought they died and gone to heaven"

I'm not sure whether this is meant to suggest that men in general, if they could, would choose to live this kind of existence.

Speaking for myself, I would find witnessing the misery and anguish of women and girls being abused to be sickening and traumatic, much more so the thought of participating in any such abuse.

I'd take the bullet!

And I would like to believe that most men in the west have a similar mindset and that is why they have willingly played their part in the evolution of a culture where such things are viewed as unacceptable and have as a consequence been ruled illegal.

We men are indeed a testosterone driven bunch, but in general this manifests itself healthily and in the event that it doesn't, we are able to recognize it rationally and learn to understand why.

The creation of these sects is all about forming bubbles of alternative society so that the norms of wider society can be replaced with new norms that allow the illusion to be mainyained that abuse is allowed and normal.

Who creates these groups? abusers of course.

And of course abuse isn't the only route to heaven, so are suicide and murder. Jim Jones is a prime example.

And who are their victims? those whose own mental health is fragile and who need care andd nurturing.

In the absence of such care and nurturing from society in the form of a proper mental health program, there is a "gap in the market" for people like Jim Jones who can pounce on their victims without much opposition.

The victims are labelled wackos and everyone turns a blind eye and atrocities are committed behind closed doors.

All groups should be registered and be subject to controls to ensure that they remain compatible with the fundamental premisses of society such as basic human rights, freedom of expression and protection from the law for their members to name but a few of the thngs which keep us out of the jungle.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM

Rapaire,

In English, to spend a penny means to go to the toilet,

however, in this context, to be spent has more to do with one being spent rather than having spent.

After running for the bus my energy was spent.

In that way you can see that someones sexual desire can also be spent.

Or indeed ones seed.

Helpful?

I think you might probably reflect that it isn't an exclusively english thing, but perhaps a use of language common to english speakers world wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:02 PM

1.. To use up or put out; expend: spent an hour exercising.
2. To pay out (money).
3. To wear out; exhaust: The storm finally spent itself.
4. To pass (time) in a specified manner or place: spent their vacation in Paris.
5.
a. To throw away; squander: spent all their resources on futile projects.
b. To give up (one's time or efforts, for example) to a cause; sacrifice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:29 PM

Lox wrote (the first line quoted is mine)

"Those men must have thought they died and gone to heaven"

I'm not sure whether this is meant to suggest that men in general, if they could, would choose to live this kind of existence.

I meant, they were getting away with something that they shouldn't be doing, and they know it perfectly well, but disguise it in the name of 'religion.' They were behaving like criminals and their secrecy was as much to cover it up as to keep young women from escaping or ratting on them. That setup was designed to bring a steady supply of extremely young and intentionally naive sex partners for a group of men who eliminated the competition by removing the competition, their own sons, before they were old enough to understand what they were being removed from.

It was predatory, calculated, manipulative, and it was slavery. Jeffs got off lightly so far. Now that this place has had the light of day shone upon it, his second trial will be the one where they throw away the key.

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Imagine how depressing it must be to have to anticipate being the sex partner of someone your father's age. Of someone who is like an uncle to you. The anticipation of youthful love with a peer is gone because the young men are banished after a while. And even when there are younger men, as was the case with the Warren Jeffs' trial, the man was something like 20 and the girl was in her early teens, she didn't want him as a partner but was not given the right of refusal. The level of energy and good spirits must be pretty low in that place on a continual basis.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

But the question still stands: why was there no outcry over the violence?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

" why was there no outcry over the violence? "

There was a bit, but not much to speak of. The "violence" also seemed to be choreographed to the lyrics, where the flash of a boob was not expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM

I think this thread just might have the dumbest (looking) thread title ever. ;-) Whaddya think, Amos? Admittedly, there have been some pretty dumb thread titles, but I think this one is a serious contender. Certainly draws the old attention, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:53 PM

What about the recent scandal on Pitcairn Island? Evidently it had become traditional for young girls to be "broken in" sexually by the mature (in age, at least) men in the community.

Pitcairn tradition

A succession of British administrators appears to have turned a blind eye to Pitcairn's customs for years, not acting when island girls had babies from the age of 12 (there was a widespread, if misguided, view on the island that this was the age of consent). No formal complaints were made until the arrival of English police officer Gail Cox in 1999. This year's trial of seven Pitcairn men tells only part of the story. Another six Pitcairn men now living in Australia and New Zealand are expected to go to trial in Auckland next year. Furthermore, 17 additional men were named as abusers during the investigation but will not be charged either because the women did not wish to pursue them or because they have died. Some women who made allegations withdrew charges after facing intense pressure from their families

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:01 PM

another article

Pitcairn men were following custom: McCullough

"The best-selling author Colleen McCullough has joined the debate on the Pitcairn Island rape trials, saying the men convicted of the rapes should have been allowed to follow their "custom" and have sex with young girls."

I don't think the United States has a monopoly on men wanting power and control over women through sex.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:06 PM

The recent evil story from Jersey is another humdinger, but at least no one there ever attempted to claim justification. I think that one was male and female children. (I usually turn the page quickly when confronted with such news stories.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:08 PM

Me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 04:55 PM

"Pitcairn men were following custom: McCullough

"The best-selling author Colleen McCullough has joined the debate on the Pitcairn Island rape trials, saying the men convicted of the rapes should have been allowed to follow their "custom" and have sex with young girls."


Right...first you create the custom you want, then you follow it. I'm gonna start a 'custom' of castrating men who abuse girls who are not old enough to either comprehend of fight back.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:20 PM

Hey, Bill! Can I lend you a knife? But make the thing total: cut it ALL off.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:29 PM

Don't do it, you guys. Men of that kind always find a way to blame something unpleasant on females.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:12 PM

Hey SRS,

I didn't mean to make your words out to be offensive and in this age of "difficult" topics of conversation I should have known better than to be so casual in my reference to your post.

My intention was to clarify what I feel is an important point.

That the issue of sexual abuse is not about limitations on ones sexual appetite, but about ones general mental and sexual health.

There is a view of men, used by some men to justify their excesses, which states that we would "do" anything or anybody but that we learn to restrain our natural animal hunger for gratification by means of self imposed ethical rules.

I don't share this view.

I hold the view that mental health, and mental illness intrude into all aspects of our lives, including sexuality. Sexual abuse and rape are unhealthy and require a seriously distorted perception of ones experience to be indulged.

If I were to witness this type of abuse, I would be traumatised and sickened by the experience.

I am able to empathise with other humans because I have a healthy brain and a human heart. I care about how people feel and my instinct when I see somebody in pain, frightened or even just uncomfortable is to try and help them.

And I believe that most men would feel the same way.

An abuser somehow bypasses this instinct.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:14 PM

I am NOT advocating ANY of this, but I am reminded of James Michenor's book, Hawaii, in which he wrote about early tribal customs. One of those included an older female or male relative teaching the younger ones about sex. When they were ready to become partners with one of their peers, they were taken apart and taught how to give and take pleasure. What I remember of reading it, it's been a long time, is it was done in a non-violent, loving way with fairly strict rules about who, what, when, and to whom. I know it sounds terrible, but in that culture at that time it seemed like a very natural thing, esp. as people didn't always live all that long and there were no European views regarding sex at the time. Of course, the missionaries changed all of that when they descended upon the "Heathens."

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:00 PM

It doesn't sound terrible at all -- but it is a very different form of education, done with compassion and sensitivity.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM

Maugham's short story "Rain" comes to mind about now.

Lox, I was clarifying my point, I didn't take your remarks amiss.

This is a subject in which the bare facts are that a lot of men were in a position to take advantage of weaker individuals and those around them who knew about it turned a blind eye. Now, for the folks from ElDorado, it will begin with a hearing next week in a stadium, and they begin to try to sort out who are the mothers, who fathered the children, and which individuals turned a blind eye to the abuse they knew was going on, because that is a crime also. Mothers (and other adults) who knew what was happening to the daughters could be culpable. The article I just read said the last case like this was 50 years ago and it fell apart because of the complexity of the case. The laws are more complicated now, not less, so this one will be around for a long time.

There is one thing I find troubling about the case as it will unfold. Aside from the sex abouse, the women and children were in a self-sufficient community where there was little contact with society and media (television, cable) and the outside world. That may have been a simple and fairly carbon-neutral lifestyle going on. I get the impression that there was Internet, but I wonder at what level? Anyway, they'll now go into society and learn how to be good workers and consumers and shift into a social situation that we should all be trying to step back from to some degree, if we want to cut back on our general consumption of resources.

Who knows? Maybe someone smart will help them find some middle ground, autonomous and eco-smart.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:18 PM

This is exactly why all organizations, groups, sects, whetever you call them need to be made accountable via appropriate legislation.

The whole Pitcairn thing happened because it is a remote Island, it's inhabitants allegedly being descended from the Mutineers from the bounty. It's another small isolated community.

Of course independance is important, but not isolation.

Jersey happened because it was free of outside "interference". There was no external checks and balances system.

I'd love to know what goes on in the offices of the church of ... you know ... Tom Cruises crowd ...

I feel uncomfortable saying the name ... voldemort ... (it's ok ... that's just fiction ... these guys are real) ... in case they decide to destroy my life too ...

Just don't call Tom Cruise or any of his crowd a Cu*t whatever you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 08:31 PM

Nah, Tom's not a Cu*t . He's just a member in a Cu*t . Big difference.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 09:16 PM

The question should be rephrased: Why is sex *less good* than death? Then the answer is plain: it doesn't last as long.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:18 AM

Ah, but Lox (This is exactly why all organizations, groups, sects, whetever you call them need to be made accountable via appropriate legislation.) - that is unconstitutional. So where is the happy middle ground?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:27 AM

I think the middle ground is the place where organizations are allowed to go about their business without interference, but on the other hand are accountable to the state if they are going about illegal business.

The constitution needs to get with the middle ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

It would be like using the constitution to defend the Mafia ...

... hmmmm ...

... ever had that feeling that you're a bit late on the uptake? ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

The consititution allows states to set many laws, and to safeguard rights according to those laws. And in Texas it is illegal for girls under 16 to marry. This law trumps religious freedom. There are various statutory laws regarding sex with minors (these often times catch minor young men having consentual sex with minor young women--the system isn't perfect).

The thorny definition of "religion" has crossed paths with the socially unacceptable behavior of "cults" many times in the past. Cults, in their general interpretation of 'self-serving make-believe religion' usually lose.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

self-serving make-believe religion'

That definition applies to every religion ever organized, and as well applies to Boy Scouts, the Bush administration, and many economists.

I am reminded of how many of my young peers, when I was growing up, felt a growing dissatisfaction with the doctrines of Christianity as it was taught. It included many myths, formulated in a pre-urban society. It contained many moral guidelines which when tried and tested were found to be too simple-minded for use in the hurly burly of real time. It drew on imaginary constructs which, when tested for applicability, were found wanting. And it involved many people who were quite content to accept doctrinaire manipulation or even worse, to assert manipulative doctrine, without intellectual grace or curiousity.

In all these instances the biggest failure was usefulness in individual discovery and individual living. Not that you can't extract good stuff from Christian teachings, but that you have to bend and twist and stretch so hard to do so.

I could go on at length about the difference between workable principles and unworkable ones, but I won't. Aren't you glad?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:50 AM

Oh, no, Amos, do go on!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM

Very true, Amos. I should have qualified it further. Many of the big religions can be pretty darned obnoxious also, and with the self-assumed moral authority (act like you're in the right and maybe people won't question it) do manage to pull some fast ones. (Like all of the taxes not paid by church investments. And meddling in politics. But this is a different subject.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 12:54 PM

OK. This thread is kind of a duplicate, so I'll tell ya now.

When I saw the thread title "Why is sex worse than death in the US?", the first thing that came to mind was "Because ya woke up next to Ann Coulter?" I have just figured out why I used to get in so much trouble when I was in high school.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:00 PM

SLightly, yes; using the shield of religious freedom to avoid civil laws is one subject. Using the same doge to avoid the laws of civilized discourse is another.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 01:51 PM

Get around, ya li'l doges,
Get around 'em slow.
The choir and the bishop
Are a-rarin' ta go.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Alice
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 02:12 PM

I didn't understand the meaning of this thread title, so I just clicked on it now.
See my comments on the Texas Polygamy thread.
Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:44 AM

The title was so bad, I skipped it for days.

Maybe one of the clones can figure out how to combine them.

Maybe this thread should just die since the other thread is more to the point.

In other words, this thread has drifted and floated away.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:03 AM

a polygamous compound......that would be like bacardi and coke...?...brandy and babycham?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:44 AM

I agree with Dianavan. I had not looked at it as I though it was about TV and the fact that we are allowed to see people killing eachother in the name of entertainment (in films I mean) but not having sex because that's 'rude'.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM

The title reflects a debate that the originator was trying to set up, but it didn't work to debate those two things in the same context. It wasn't just about the polygamous sect when it started.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM

"we are allowed to see people killing eachother in the name of entertainment (in films I mean) but not having sex because that's 'rude'."

Who the hell wants to WATCH!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:34 PM

I'm willing to close this thread for the one with the clear title, but I'd still like this question to be asked there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:39 PM

Come off it Bruce, its quite fun watching......in fact its all right singing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM

The title has nothing to do with Texas. I don't care what Mrzzy's intent was - but each thread stands on it's own. There is nothing wrong with sex in the U.S. and we do not treat it worse than death. If you want to talk about Texas or religion, do so, but if you make a vague title for a thread that has no explanation - you get what you get. Mrzzy does not have to be "willing" to do anything, and we do not have to be limited to the interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 01:46 PM

Mrrzy, I think the problem is that law enforcement and the public in general do not understand that freedom of religion does not mean freed om to abuse (or neglect, or rape).
Some people think "tolerance" means tolerating abuse in the name of religion.
Having dealt with the problem of dangerous cults for the last 17 years, I can tell you that misplaced tolerance is a shield for abuse in the name of religion. This happens in every state in the usa and all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 02:12 PM

Mrrz:

Of course sex is not worse than death. Quite the contrary, it is a celebration of life and real sensation and affinity. And this is true in every state and nation.

But there are pushbutton media reactions to be found wherever a controversy is in play or can be started. The three things that sell viewers or readers below a certain threshold are sex, controversy and violence or huge forces.

Tiresome as these subjects are, they make up the largest foodgroups of the Western intellectual diet because they sell papers, or web pages.

IF you want to know why this is so you need to explore the mechanisms of human aberration and why some folks are neurotic on certain subjects.

I doubt that such an exploration would be good thread fodder, though.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:04 PM

I think it might have made more sense if it was:

"when is sex worse than death?"

one possible answer to which could be "when you have no choice and you are too young and scared nd can't see a way out."

In that light perhaps some criticisms are a bit harsh.

I wasn't bothered about the title, having moved on once the discussion was underway, something which has been undone now that so many people have started complaining about the title.

I made points that I thought were useful and important to the discussion which I do not feel lose their value because somebody doesn't like the thread title.

This thread has indeed lost its way ... talk about self fulfilling prophecies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:14 PM

Good suggestion on the title change. The other thread has been camped out on more and has less give and take. This one is interesting, but I've been busy so haven't read much today. It has been much on my mind, though.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:17 PM

Well, let's hear it for "le petit morte"

I'll be off now. Or having it off. Or...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:41 PM

How can you say there is "nothing wrong with sex" in the US? What about the abstinence only teaching? What about saving it till marriage? Where do you live?

"La" petite mort, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:24 PM

"How can you say there is "nothing wrong with sex" in the US? What about the abstinence only teaching? What about saving it till marriage? Where do you live?"

I live in NJ where are students are taught to learn and make decisions for themselves from among the many diverse things they hear. We have sex education classes in the schools.

Where do you live? Did you believe everything your teachers told you or did you make your own decisions?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:51 PM

How can you say there is "nothing wrong with sex" in the US? What about the abstinence only teaching? What about saving it till marriage? Where do you live?

I live in the real world, where humans are sexual beings. This nonsense about "saving yourself till marriage" only serves certain patriarchal organized religions and brings on more problems than anything else. I told my kids to practice safe sex, and I hoped they would wait until they were in a relationship that was really important to them, not a flash in the pan. That has been the case and we have managed to keep an open dialog. We pay for my daughter's birth control method while she's in college.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

Ron, I live in Central Virginia, the buckle on the Bible Belt, but in Charlottesville, theoretically a liberal enclave in the middle of it all. Yet the overwhelming majority of folks around here think sex is something that only 2 people, a man and a woman in fact, should do, and only if they are married, and only if they only have vaginal sex. Oral sex is still illegal, even between married couples. New Jersey may be better than that, but I'd bet that you still have an awful lot of people who think that sex should only be between married people who are of different genders.
And birth control should be covered by insurance - after all, Viagra is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

There is a cult headed up by an ex Nazi that has been brought to court for the rape of no fewer than 200 children. The cult tried to cover it up and kept sending the rapists to different compunds where the rapists continued their sick practice.

This cult leader is on a US whirlwind tour THIS WEEK !

Subject: RE: BS: Why is sex worse than death in the US?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

"I'd bet that you still have an awful lot of people who think that sex should only be between married people who are of different genders.

I guarantee that you are correct, but again, going by the title of this thread - you make it sound as if this is a problem only in the U.S. Those attitudes still reflect an overwhelming number of people around the globe. If you said "why is sex worse than death" and left it that, the tone is completely different. To single out one country is wrong.

Teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted disease is much higher in the UK than it is in the US (look it up), and abstinence is taught in the UK just as it is in the US.

Mrzzy, you may live in a state where a blowjob is illegal, but that is not the case in the majority of the states. There are rules, normally going unenforced, that date back to earlier times. Live evolves. There were areas of the country that African-Americans could not drink from the same water fountain, and many of us were already walking the earth when those rules were in effect. What one state does, or what one region does, is does not reflect the feelings of the majority of Americans.    I think Silly River Sage's philosophy is more prevelant than you think, and that is a good sign.