BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far

Subject: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:41 PM

CARPENTERSVILLE, Ill (AP) – An Illinois delegate for presidential candidate Barack Obama resigned Tuesday after she used the word "monkeys" to describe black children playing in a tree.

Linda Ramirez-Sliwinski, a trustee in the Chicago suburb of Carpentersville, was issued a $75 ticket for disorderly conduct after neighbors complained to police. She says the word wasn't meant racially and she will fight the ticket.

"Given the incident, Linda Ramirez-Sliwinski is stepping down as a delegate and will be replaced," said Obama spokeswoman Amy Brundage.

The incident took place Saturday, when two children were playing in a tree next door to Ramirez-Sliwinski's house.

She said the parents were outside supervising the children, but she went over and told them to get out of the tree because she was concerned about the boys' safety and because the small magnolia tree was being damaged.

The father of one of the boys told her it was none of her business, she said, and "I calmly said the tree is not there for them to be climbing in there like monkeys."

The mother of one boy called police.

Cmdr. Michael Kilbourne said a ticket was issued because the ordinance bans conduct that disturbs or alarms people, and one of the boys told police he was scared by her comment.

Ramirez-Sliwinski says she doesn't plan to run for another term on the village board.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM

A DC City assembly man was forced to resign when he used the word NIGGARDLY to describe a puny budget.

It was said by a black assmbly woman that while she did not know the exact meaning of the word, he should have known better.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

We've all become sensitized - which is good - but sometimes we become overly so. 'Monkeys' has been the term for that kind of activity forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM

The monkey thing is indeed a nonsense. I call my daughter a cheeky monkey from time to time. I use my language even handedly with her friends, black or white (her two best friends are mixed race and african).

Sometimes I consider the possibility that someone witnessing it might take offence, but I reflect - on what grounds would I be discriminating ... race? and then I think - what a load of bollocks! And then I return to referring affectionately to children I love.

The problem here is that the woman who made the gaffe (?) took it on herself to start telling parents how to look after their kids. Parents don't like that kind of thing.

I hope she wins her appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM

Sounds like someone is playing silly buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

In some thread we discussed the children's song which starts with "five little monkeys jumping on the bed." I think it was Azizi who objected to the use of "monkeys," but don't quote me on that. I cannot find the reference I made to it.

"TV's Craig Ferguson" calls his audience his little "cheeky monkeys" all of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:11 PM

niggardly — circa 1366, nygart, of uncertain origin. The suffix suggests Fr. origin (cf. dastard), but the root word is probably related to O.N. hnøggr "stingy," from P.Gmc. *khnauwjaz (cf. Swed. njugg "close, careful," Ger. genau "precise, exact"), and to O.E. hneaw "stingy."

Absolutely nothing to do with race.

And as to referring to kids as "monkeys," I think that says more about the person who takes offense than it does about the person who uses the word in this context.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

She was describing the activity as opposed to describing the children themselves. The parents just took it the wrong way.

                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

Of course you were there and witnessed the incident yourself?

The article says that the kid said that the woman's comments scared him.

It seems to me she may have been louder and pushier than she is letting on.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bee
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

'Monkey' comment aside, what was she doing going to her neighbour's house to chastise children who were being supervised by their parents?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

Jack,
       It does not take much to scare little kids. When I was that age and my neighbor yelled at me for playing on his lawn I was also very scared. But my mother did not call the cops on him.

                                                      SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:09 PM

So, maybe she owns the property and rents it? Maybe someone else owns it and rents it and she watches it for them? There could be all sorts of reasons for not letting children climb in a tree that the reporter neglected to ask about or report.

I regularly tell parents they should make their children sit down in the shopping cart in grocery stores. Those concrete floors, with lineoleum flooring, are deadly when children fall on them head-first from cart level. Mostly people see the problem and address the child to sit, but I've had people make rude remarks even after I lunged to stop a child from falling on the floor. It isn't acceptable to let your child ride through the aisle on the other side of the register from you, and it isn't the clerks job to look out for your toddler. If you're writing a check and the groceries are in the cart bagged, it isn't acceptable to then push the cart out of the way (and out of reach) of someone who is paying attention to the child. Instead of being grateful that someone was paying attention and rescuing a child, one mother got rude and abusive. I should have called the state and reported her. I think I told her so.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM

If I have read the article correctly, this woman was not on her own property. The incident took place "next door". Driving people off your own private property is one thing. Going to someone else's property and scaring children is certainly within my definition of disorderly conduct. Since she knew the parents were present, she certainly had no business directly addressing the parents and telling them to get out of the tree.

The whole monkey thing poses a bit of a dilemma for me. I like monkeys, I like apes, I like the idea of monkeys and apes. For me to call someone a monkey is a compliment. Having grown up in Canada, I have not been exposed to the full scope of racial conflict and degradation in this country. My wife has reminded me a couple of times that because of this history, I should keep the "monkey" comments to myself when talking to our black friends.

Its not a big deal to refrain from calling people names that they find offensive. It is also not polite to compare another person's children to animals, especially to describe behavior that you yourself find offensive.

If she had called them possums instead of monkeys, all other things being equal, she probably still would have got the ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

she certainly had no business directly addressing the CHILDREN and telling them to get out of the tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM

It's a different world from what it used to be- and we as a people have made it that way.

Years ago - about when the changes began, I would say - a friend with four boys was telling me about an experience her kids had had.

They were playing in a fruit orchard outside town and a neighboring man came out and told them to stop, they were breaking branches.

Ond of the boys said to the neighbor, Is this your orchard?

The man said, No.

The kids told him, Then it's none of your business.

My friend agreed with her boys.

I was shocked. That is not how I was brought up, nor how I raised my daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM

This is a job for Super Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:58 PM

The fact that Obama had her removed as a delegate speaks volumes about how we have to think twice before we say anything that might ruffle someone's feathers.

                                                      SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:04 PM

Well, it sounds a bit silly to me that anyone should take offence at their kid being called a naughty little monkey when climbing trees.

*But*, I have the luxury of thinking it sounds silly, *because* I don't come from a race of people who were demeaned as being inferior because 'monkey-like'.

So I think she was rude, and her removal was correct. If not for rudeness, then for having an ability to put her foot in her mouth that's no help to a political candidate. And I speak as one who has that power in, umm, spades.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM

Of course the tree is there for them to be climbing in. That's what yard trees are for. Kids belong in trees and trees need kids to be climbing in them. That's a fact. That woman doesn't know anything about either kids or trees. And that's all I have to say on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM

So the idea is, you see some little kids and you are worried they might fall? Nothing to do with you , it's not your tree and they aren't your kids. Keep schtum - blame the parents when they break their necks, don't blame yourself...

For myself, that's an attitude I would describe as quite remarkably incorrect, morally, socially, and politically.

Which may not be in fact what was involved - we probably have a very inadequate version of whatever went on here. But my comment is directed at the attitude I summarised there.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM

>>Well, it sounds a bit silly to me that anyone should take offence at their kid being called a naughty little monkey when climbing trees.<<

It doesn't actually say in the article that that was why offense was taken. I don't have kids, but if I was supervising my kid and some other adult started yelling at them rather than talking to me, I would take offense. If I then told the lady to mind her own business and she started to call my children animals, of any kind, I would call the police and ask them to deal with it rather than escalate the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:18 PM

Years ago (in the '80's I think) sportscaster Howard Cosell got into a heap of trouble when he referred to Washington Redskins wide receiver Alvin Garrett as a 'little monkey'.

Isn't 'Washington Redskins' also non-PC?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM

3 years ago the basketball team of St. John's University in Jamaica, Queens, NY was forced to change their nickname from Redmen to Red Storm because it was non-PC.

                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:24 PM

>>Isn't 'Washington Redskins' also non-PC?<<

I would say so.

How about changing it to the Washington Chicken Hawks?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:34 PM

So, what's wrong with watching your mouth? Does anyone have a right to say whatever crosses their mind? What about basic manners?

Former President Theodor Roosevelt once called the Japanese "Little yellow monkeys". Would anyone think he was just being playful?

Times change, people change, some grow up and become civilized. The rest bitch about rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:44 PM

So the idea is, you see some little kids and you are worried they might fall? Nothing to do with you , it's not your tree and they aren't your kids. Keep schtum - blame the parents when they break their necks, don't blame yourself...

No, the idea is that if you see kids climbing in trees, you leave them alone because that's where they belong. I spent most of my childhood up in trees. Nobody ever told me to get out of them. And I did fall out of one... once, and broke my arm and got right back up in the trees as soon as the cast came off. My son spent most of his childhood up in trees as well, only he never fell out of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM

How about we send some Mormon splinter group to Canada and put them in charge of the seal hunt. They can kill the males, fuck the females, and start a new species...... a sort of sea monkey. Then we send this woman up to protest the whole thing while Hillary takes over ramming her with a Coast Guard Cutter and unknown but dastardly elements of US foreign policy plant squib charges on the ice.

Hey....Wortha' try and would end a lot of threads around here..............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:15 PM

I wrote a post here, but when I tried to send it up came a notice saying the thread was closed, so I scrapped it. Now the thread's open again - I wish whoever's pulling the levers could make up their minds...

Not that it seemed like a thread that particularly called for closure.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:20 PM

You don't have enough information to say these kids were on their own tree, and you don't have enough information to know that these were responsible parents, but we were told that they were liable to break the tree.

Maybe they were in a yard that didn't belong to them either, that was what I was getting at.

The usual suspects are in a mood to argue, so this thread is a gonner.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:31 PM

>>

From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:20 PM

You don't have enough information to say these kids were on their own tree, and you don't have enough information to know that these were responsible parents, but we were told that they were liable to break the tree. <<

Did anyone here say the kids were in their own tree? The article says that the tree was next door. The point being that she was yelling at somebody else's kids in somebody else's tree. If she was an official member of the tree police, I doubt that she would have got the ticket.

Please not that, the article is careful to say that she got the ticket for scaring the kid. Not for telling his parents that he was a monkey.

Tempest in a teapot really.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM

This is how a yard tree is supposed to look...

http://www.alcdv.com/kidtree.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM

In case anyone cares--Neighbors Bury the Hatchet

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:56 PM

"I calmly said the tree is not there for them to be climbing in there like monkeys." If that's true, there's nothing in it to offend and nothing to apologise for. Monkeys do climb trees, and it's perfectly reasonable to use the term for children clambering around in the branches.

Of course there could have been more to it than that, for all we know. When we focus in on particular cases like this and start arguing back and forth about them I think we make a mistake, because we are arguing from ignorance. We'd do better to use them as a chance to explore the principles involved - in this case, what responsibility do we have for our neighbours children, or for the environment (eg trees in the street), and what kind of restrictions should we impose on our use of language.

So far as offending people is concerned, I think the right thing to do is to try to avoid offending people who don't deserve it, even when we think they are over-sensitive. And at the same time we should try to avoid taking offense unless we are sure offence is intended, even when we think that what is said is open to an offensive interpretation.

And if anyone ever tells our children off we should take a good look at whether they have good reason to do so before indignantly defending them. That's one of the implications of "It takes a village to raise a child".

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:04 PM

Well, these monkeys in a tree do look not that dissimilar to the children in a tree in Carol's link. And both the monkeys and the children look as if they are where they belong.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM

Kids are supposed to be in trees? Trees need kids in them? None of a watcher's business to stop children doing wrong (damaging a tree, risking harm to themselves)?

Cuckoo!

Cuckoo!

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:31 PM

speaking of niggardly - many many years ago I remember reading about an incident where the person not knowing what a word meant lead to death/injury. An older man was telling a woman she looked beautiful (pulchritudinous), she & her husband thought he was calling her a prostitute & the man shot him!

the Dilbert thread from 2003 contained a similar confusion- educator & child abuser.

words!

sandra (who used to climb on monkey bars in the playground & also climbed trees)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 11:57 PM

Thanks M.Ted.   As is the case with most Mudcat "discussions", most people like to have a knee jerk reaction and never bother checking any facts.   If anyone else chose to do a search, they would have found that the woman and the neighbor had a dispute - she also complained about their "loud music" and their use of city-issued garbage cans.   It seems there was more of a "payback" at work here, and I would bet anything that if this woman choses to fight the ticket, she would win.

There may also be OTHER political motivations at work here. The woman did have some folks who did not care for the stances she took on behalf of immigrants.   You can look it up yourself.

There is NOTHING wrong about telling children to get out of a tree if they are in danger of hurting themselves OR the tree.   There is nothing wrong with being a bit more sensitive about how our words can hurt each other. While I could not possibly know the true story, I would also bet the woman was being honest when she said had no racial motivations when she said it - it was a simple slip. Yet, the feeling of being called a monkey probably DID have a bad impact on the child - and the mother - and there is nothing wrong with bringing it out into the open.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:03 AM

I'm not commenting on this subject until we've heard the tree's point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:29 AM

It is easier than ever to get information on nearly any issue, Ron--but it will never be as easy as simply reacting to the previous post--

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:41 AM

Had I been the parent, here - and I'll admit freely that I have probably only half the story - my attitude would have been the sama as the one I took when an identical thing happened in my back garden, last year.

My eldest grandson was climbing the elm. The neighbour shouted at him to get down. The grandson slung her a deaf 'un (i.e. he ignored her, which is what I'd have done in his place).

Two minutes later the doorbell goes, and there is Nosey Norah, arms and emotions akimbo.

'Do you know there is a child in that tree ?' she says.

'Ooh aye', replies Bryn 'he has my full authority to be there. Now fuck off.'

She did.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:16 AM

God made trees for kids to climb. If some get killed in the process, they go straight to Heaven to be with Jesus. If they get maimed, they can be a Good Example of Patient Resignation to us all.

If they weren't peeing and crapping on the good folks on the ground, they weren't behaving like monkeys. Also if they were not attempting to steal food off each other, pick fleas or mate.

If it was someone else's tree, as it must have been because all trees are God's creations, that other person should have removed them safely, because in case of an accident they could have lain on the ground screaming until compensation set in. You must not have an unsafe tree on your property, nor unsafe ground beneath it. Life is all about risk, but someone else must take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:15 AM

How very proud of yourself you must feel, Bryn. A role model for us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

I wouldn't have posted if I didn't feel inordinately proud of myself, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:31 AM

That was the impression I got...

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

This reminds me of a few years back when amateur dramatics became the norm for soccer players in the English league. You only had to look at a player, and they were writhing on the floor holding whatever part of their anatomy came handiest. And the referees were falling for it in droves and awarding penalties and free kicks.

But the pendulum has swung, and nowadays I have seen people yellow- or even red-carded for such uncalled for dramatics. Perhaps the same will happen eventually with the over-the-top pseudo-sensitivities that some people claim in the name of PC. If it could be proven that the mother bore old grudges and found this an easy way to settle old scores, then she would deserve to be prosecuted herself.

It may yet come to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:08 AM

Does anyone have a right to say whatever crosses their mind?

Well, yes, if you take the First Amendment at face value. Just like anyone has a right to own a tactical nuclear weapon if you take the Second at face value.

What about basic manners?

They've gone to hell and gone, obviously. But that's a different issue from peoples' constitutional rights. The idea of the U. S. Government was that if people had inalienable rights under the Constitution, they'd be mature enough to use those rights in a responsible manner. Most people are, or the whole country would collapse into total chaos. We don't really have an effective program for dealing with the minority who aren't.

Or so it seems to me.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM

Something to bear in mind is that the tree in question is described as being small, unlike the ones in the pictures provided by CarolC

How small? If it were in danger of being seriously damaged then there may have been a case for interference. A small tree should not be considered fair game if that fair gamne involves destroying it.

I think it sounds like a case of a simple political gaffe, in that she is a person attached to politics so she should be more aware of the dangers of using otherwise perfectly innocent language.

There is a possibility that the children may have been effectively vandalizing the tree.

There is a possibility that the parents were just being typical defensive idiots - like the ones who tell you "don't tell me how to bring up my child" when you have just told them what you think about seeing them slap their child in the face.

Some people know the rules and play them in an evil way, like the kids in British schools who know that their teachers have no real authority due their parents telling them so and encouraging them not to take any "sh*t".

So there is a strong chance that an intelligent civic minded person is in trouble because of the refusal of parents to take responsibility of their kids when they are behaving inappropriately.

As McGrath has experienced earlier in this thread, there are those who derive great pride and enjoyment from opportunities to indulge their neanderthal side.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

I am one of those interfering Nosy Noras.

I often exercise my dog in a small church park with one -count them -one tree. The city grooms the park but it is actually owned by the Russsian Orthodox church abutting. There are homes with several small children on the other side of the street.

One morning the little tree, about the size of a smallish lilac tree, had a major stem broken off near the base of the tree.

A couple of days later there were two youngsters amidst the branches swinging. Living in such proximity I'm sure they felt that this was *their* park.

I told them that this was not the kind of tree meant for climbing and pointed out the broken branch. They were reluctant to get out of the tree and said something about their 'daddy'.

I said, Yes, go ask your daddy. Tell him about the broken branch. He'll tell you that this is not a tree for climbing.

I have no idea whether their father agreed with me but I haven't seen them in it since. However, it's been winter. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:45 AM

I think there's been a number of careless semi-summaries and misquotes and baseless assumptions in this thread.

Yet, the feeling of being called a monkey probably DID have a bad impact on the child

From the article, I don't understand that she called the child a monkey. She referred to the activity as "climbing like monkeys" or something close to that. A great difference there.

There appears to be a disagreement about the tone of the original incident, some Catters taking one side of the incident description (without actual knowledge) and others taking the other side. The neighbors seemingly said she yelled; she said she calmly made her statements. None of us knows which is true.

We don't really know whose tree it was, but some of the posts assume it belongs to the neighbors.

I think there are some further instances, but I don't want to take the time to search the thread to find them; those will do for the purpose.

Yes, we can each infer that this happened or that did; that the tone must have been this or that; but it's important to try to keep our thinking (and our criticism) straight by remembering that these are inferences and assumptions.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness Gone Too Far
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM

Doesn't anyone feel uneasy about the terms "politically correct" and "political correctness"? Aren't they just code words used to belittle, marginalize, and dismiss anything of meaning to ethnic and racial minorities, the LGBT community, feminists, the disabled, and political liberals?