England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

The Amazing Blondel - I thought they'd vanished years ago - thanks for the link, IB. Is it just my ears, which have been recently punctured by Bellowhead's "Matachin", or are they just a teensy-weensy bit - you know, just a weensy bit Olde Englande...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM

... and, I should add, that my own memories of the early 50s were of living in what was then a dirty little mill town on the edge of the Pennines. It seemed to rain all the time and there was a haze of dirty smoke that hung permanenently over the place - easily visible from Rivington Pike, the nearest spot to walk out to get away from it. My worst memory is of my dentist, who put the fear of God into me when he started to foot-treadle his drill.

I went back to the village - more like a small town now - a year or two ago and it was immensely cleaner and brighter, if more built-upon than I remembered. Good old days? Bu99er them.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM

'WAV generally starts his threads with something fairly uncontroversial and people rub their hands with glee - "Another WAV bashing opportunity" ' - The Snail

This concept intrigued me, and I wanted to see if it were true. This thread started with a musical question and received a number of good-natured musical answers from many of the continuing respondents here.

So who was the first person to introduce the political argument about English culture being "kept down"? 3 guesses. And it still took some time before people got pissed off with his combination of ignorance, arrogance and persistent reactionary sloganeering.

I reiterate: WAV is not an innocent here. He's not a victim. He's an agent provocateur. If he doesn't like the responses he provokes, perhaps he should re-think his ideology and his methods of engagement.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:22 AM

you know, just a weensy bit Olde Englande

Exactly. Wistful, twee, seen through a haze of... something anyway. I first heard that back in 1973 when I was twelve, so it sort of takes me back, as some music does. Been thinking about that a lot recently, the associations of music that might resurface from time to time, reminding one of something perhaps best forgotten... or not... but either way it never quite goes away...

And talking about Nostalgia, and Bananas - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA6ShRmUgCE

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:54 AM

I left England for New Zealand at the age of 18 in 1957, and the England I remember was not exactly monocultural even then. The first song I can remember was Irish - "McTavish is dead and his brother don't know it" from my Glasgow-Irish grandma - next after that was my mother singing "Bobby Shaftoe", and from then on it was mostly tunes and songs from the radio, which was mostly set to the Home Service. My father was a Jimmy Shand fan, and the one from his band I remember was Mickie Ainsworth's version of "The March Hare" (Irish), and versions by players I couldn't name of "The Minstrel Boy" (Irish again) and "The Girl I Left Behind Me".

And the three songs that stuck in my head from that time more than any others were: Charles Trenet's "La Mer" (in French; Bobby Darin's English one was later); Eartha Kitt's version of the Turkish song "Uskudar'a gider iken"; and my father singing "Bhair mi o" very badly in the bath - he'd probably learned it off a Glasgow Orpheus Choir record.

Probably my dad's best friend at the time was a Polish emigre. We had one of his watercolours (of Skye) at home but never got to hear any Polish songs. We had a few bits of Indian and Egyptian paraphernalia around the house from my father's war service, some African things from his uncle's work as a diplomat in Zanzibar, and with his aunts being involved in supporting Methodist missionary work as well, we could never really dismiss the wider world as something not worth knowing about.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

Ruth Archer

Well maybe "Another WAV bashing opportunity" was a bit of hyperbole but WAV's been around long enough for people to know how it's going to go. He starts a thread, people respond and he's got his platform.

I reiterate: WAV is not an innocent here.

Did I say he was?

He's not a victim.

But people are making him look like one.

He's an agent provocateur.

Yes. Good at it isn't he. He pulls the strings and everybody dances.

If he doesn't like the responses he provokes, perhaps he should re-think his ideology and his methods of engagement.

Perhaps he should but, somehow I don't think he's going to. He's enjoying himself too much the way things are.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:47 AM

"Asylum and immigration are not the same thing. From your responses above, what you want is severe restrictions on asylum and an end to immigration. Why be afraid to be transparent about this? Is it because you know it equates all too well with the ideologies of far-right parties, such as those quorted by Woody?" (Ruth)...on the contrary, I am transparent/frank and then you go and twist things/put words in my mouth. And how on earth can I be "right-wing" when I've criticised capitalism so often throughout my collection? But, yes, as I've also tried to clarify there, this is where some left-wing people get confused - they are against greed, like me, but end up supporting economic/capitalist immigration, unlike me.
And then - "WAV is as responsible as anyone for keeping these arguments alive."...so having been hammered for not answering Pip's questions, above, as I thought I'd covered those issues, now I'm guilty of participation in a thread as well!
To Snail - it's true that some here could not agree with me that snails have shells, although I, myself, always at least try to play each ball on it's merrits and DO keep listening to people.
Radish - "That's a 'Yes', then. England should be mono-cultural, nobody should come here except asylum seekers from a nearby country, and those who do come here should assimilate to 'English culture'."...I've said economic/capitalist (NOT ALL)immigration/emigration should stop, the world over, from now on...and I've also given examples of other kinds of immigration/emigration above. Can you begin to comprehend that I genuinely don't like well-heeled people from nations other than Spain, including mine, pricing young Spanish couples out of the property market?
"the imputation of hating brown-skinned people personally" and that IS false and defamatory and disgusting tactics! I have only questioned the act of immigration itself and never any particular race or culture. What I have done, is found my way on a shoe-string through about 40 countries getting on well enough with people. Then, you again confuse the questioning of immigration with racism, even though more and more people are beginning to understand the differnce these days.
(And, for what it's worth, I'll have to read and respond to the rest later, as I'd like to go through my repertoire on my English flute, as usual, before attending a folk club tonight...lyrics I find less forgettable.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Surreysinger at work
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

WAV ... I'm not making any comment on what you have to say, as it's been quite obvious that there is generally little point in that ... but if you DO have anything to say, and want to quote other people, could you at least make sure that you follow normal conventions ... ie keep the quote and your response separate! At the moment it's well night impossible to see where the quote finishes and your reply starts ... which makes it all very difficult to follow, if one actually wants to

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM

"I have only questioned the act of immigration itself and never any particular race or culture."

No, what you have said is that foreigners are fine, as long as they don't come here and undermine "good English culture". You have said that English culture is taking a hammering, and implied that immigration is to blame. You have said that England was a "more English" place 50 years ago before mass, non-European immigration began, and you would have preferred it if things had remained so. You have said that different cultures cannot live under one state law, and have cited (extremely rare) examples of terrorosm as one of the reasons for this.

These things do not equate to questioning the ACT of immigration - they question immigration on cultural grounds. This is xenophobic at best, and racist at worst, and as has been demonstrated, they are pretty much aligned with several of the key policies of the BNP. You feel culturally and economically threatened by immigration, so you want it to stop, regardless of what this might mean for the human rights of those involved - and don't start giving out about the UN: that's a pipe dream. in the HERE and NOW, if immigration were to stop, you'd be condemning great swathes of people to a lif of poverty and struggle. Why? What right have you, because of an accident of birth, to benefit from the wealth and privilege of a life in Britain while others are denied those privileges? From your own admission, it isn't because you are contributing more than the average immigrant - indeed, you are on the dole, and lots of immigrants are out there doing cleaning and manual labour and whatever crappy jiob they can get their hands on, just to provide for themselves and their families.

So it's not the act of immigration you question, IMHO - it's the effect; and more specifically, how that effect might impact on YOU, and your fantasy of a pure English culture and your employment prospects.

Again, at least have the grace to be honest with us, as well as yourself.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-EuyEsYTE
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-EuyEsYTE

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

they will probably bring a f;;;;;;;;banjo with them.
hey the banjo an african instrument.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM

on the contrary, I am transparent/frank and then you go and twist things/put words in my mouth. And how on earth can I be "right-wing" when I've criticised capitalism so often throughout my collection?

That is pathetic. Like the rest of your ideas it is very shallow, childish even. What is more, you obviously have no idea what capitalism means, otherwise you wouldn't call someone moving for a job a capitalist immigrant. Capitalism does not mean making mon ey and socialism does not mean that you are against money.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

"Capitalist immigration."

Somehow I don't think someone living in a poverty-stricken third world country who decides to move to a richer, more industrialized country in search of work in order to feed his family is really thinking in terms of capitalist ideology.

On the other hand, a corporate head who closes down a factory and "outsources" the jobs to a poor country in order to maximize profits is.

David, I'd say that for a person with a degree in Humanities, the door you are complaining about swings the wrong way.

(Of course, one's self-interest often colors one's outlook).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM

From your own admission, it isn't because you are contributing more than the average immigrant - indeed, you are on the dole, and lots of immigrants are out there doing cleaning and manual labour and whatever crappy jiob they can get their hands on, just to provide for themselves and their families.


And of course paying their taxes which go on to pay WAV's dole.


There is of course an extra irony. WAV's surname of "Franks" owes its origins to the people responsible for the most destructive act of economic migration the English ever experienced.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

BTW, my point about Israeli music IS that different cultures can live peacebly together.

I love the way that he thinks if criticising capitalism is a left-wing thing to do, and I criticize CAPITALISTIC immigration (a term of Wav's own concocting) then questioning the act of immigration is a left-wing thing. In reality, questioning immigration is VERY right-wing, and reactionary, xenophobic right-wing at that. They come here to steal our jobs.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM

WAV: if you want to decline to answer any more questions ON THIS THREAD and start a BS thread to discuss political issues, that's absolutely fine by me.

For now:

Radish - "That's a 'Yes', then. England should be mono-cultural, nobody should come here except asylum seekers from a nearby country, and those who do come here should assimilate to 'English culture'."...I've said economic/capitalist (NOT ALL)immigration/emigration should stop, the world over, from now on...and I've also given examples of other kinds of immigration/emigration above.

Exactly. The immigrants you approve of are asylum seekers, and the asylum seekers you approve of are asylum seekers for whom England is the nearest available safe country. In short, "nobody should come here except asylum seekers from a nearby country" - and those who do come here should assimilate, so that England remains mono-cultural.

"the imputation of hating brown-skinned people personally" and that IS false and defamatory and disgusting tactics!

Try reading to the end of the sentence before replying. What I said is that I realise you don't hate brown-skinned people personally. You don't have to hate brown-skinned people personally to be a racist. Any clearer?

Get back to me on the assimilation question some time, could you? As I said, it doesn't have to be on this thread - I'd much rather it was on a BS thread. Up to you.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:57 PM

"In reality, questioning immigration is VERY right-wing, and reactionary, xenophobic right-wing at that."

Whose reality is that?

No disrespect intended, but I think you're grossly over-simplifying the issue.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:51 AM

When the stated reason for curtailing immigration is that it's to protect the "purity" of one's own "culture," well, yeah. Sure looks like it to me.

Do Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:51 AM

Yes, you're right, but as a generalisation it's not true. Everything should be questioned. Free speech should be the priority, even if we don't agree with what's being said. The original statement said 'questioning', not 'curtailing'.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:41 AM

WAV - how on earth can I be "right-wing" when I've criticised capitalism so often

The Nazis & fascists in general were anti-capitalist. Hitler talked about it in Mein Kampf.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

IB - "mono-cultural shit-hole of pre-1960s England"...so all the talk from our elders of better community spirit, being able to leave their front door open without fear, etc., is nonsense?
And "Without immigration, England had no culture worth a shit."?!
And "grey monochrome flavourless bland as boiled fucking cabbage"?!...I think these are the views of an extreme pro-immigrationist which, if I wasn't around, a lot of the people here would oppose; and one of the reasons I won't permanently "fuck off back to Australia" is because I genuinely DO like our English cultural heritage.
And a reminder that I too have enjoyed the other cultures a few of you mentioned, and more, on my travels .

"These things do not equate to questioning the ACT of immigration - they question immigration on cultural grounds. This is xenophobic at best, and racist at worst, and as has been demonstrated, they are pretty much aligned with several of the key policies of the BNP. You feel culturally and economically threatened by immigration, so you want it to stop, regardless of what this might mean for the human rights of those involved - and don't start giving out about the UN: that's a pipe dream. in the HERE and NOW, if immigration were to stop, you'd be condemning great swathes of people to a lif of poverty and struggle. Why? What right have you, because of an accident of birth, to benefit from the wealth and privilege of a life in Britain while others are denied those privileges? From your own admission, it isn't because you are contributing more than the average immigrant - indeed, you are on the dole, and lots of immigrants are out there doing cleaning and manual labour and whatever crappy jiob they can get their hands on, just to provide for themselves and their families." (Ruth)...Sorry I can't remember who, but someone pointed out that, of course, nations already do regulate immigration - I'm arguing regulations should be stronger, the world over - because I don't think economic/capitalist immigration/emigrations is the solution to reducing the terrible inequality in the world, and I do see definite problems, beyond terrorism, in trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law (which we have already been through). In other words, the solution is to leave, or to stay and be part of the solution? And these are neither "xenophobic" nor "racist" words - I really DO love the world being multicultural...this, on the other hand goes very close - "There is of course an extra irony. WAV's surname of "Franks" owes its origins to the people responsible for the most destructive act of economic migration the English ever experienced." (Woody)...and then "The Nazis & fascists in general were anti-capitalist. Hitler talked about it in Mein Kampf." (Woody)...again, I hate imprialism/white supremecy, etc. - be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:25 AM

WAV - I was pointing out that, while you may protest otherwise, all the points you argue are the same as those argued by far right groups. Most of them are also anti-imperialist. Some of them are white supremacist, some not.

Which is better for the country? An immigrant that comes here, retains their own culture, but is economically productive and pays taxes, or a native-born returnee who is not productive and is a consumer of tax money?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

Volgadon: The "native-born returnee" may be fully qualified and willing to do the job of the immigrant; the "native-born returnee" may have a better chance of work if attitudes toward immigration, repatriation, land rights, etc., changed.
There's a programme on TV here called "Wanted Down Under" and, at the end of it, a couple have to decide between Australia or staying here - I haven't watched all the episodes (there's jobsearching to be done, etc.) but not once have I heard any consideration given to Aborigines and land rights...so, more than 2 centuries on, for some or many here, they still don't enter the equation when it comes to leaving here for there, which I find revolting.
Back on thread, recorder may come from the olde English word "recorden" which means to warble or sing and I, for one, at least try to play it like I sing and sing like I play.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

Wav - your playing and singing are very like each other, so well done

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM

WAV: if you want to decline to answer any more questions ON THIS THREAD and start a BS thread to discuss political issues, that's absolutely fine by me.

these are neither "xenophobic" nor "racist" words - I really DO love the world being multicultural

Please get this into your head: there is absolutely no contradiction between being racist and really, truly, genuinely loving the world being multicultural. When we say your views are racist, we emphatically don't mean that you don't love the world being multicultural. We know you love the world being multicultural. We also believe you're a racist. Think about it.

In the mean time, what about answering my earlier question about assimilation?

You've said earlier that it's a bad thing when people lose their culture; in many ways I tend to agree. But doesn't that mean that it's a good thing when immigrants keep their culture alive?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM

WaV - Go and see Johnny Silvo, preferably at a folk club; he is living proof of how misguided some of your beliefs are.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM

Something for WAV - Our Own Good Folk Culture With Authentic Northern Accents

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

'Volgadon: The "native-born returnee" may be fully qualified and willing to do the job of the immigrant; the "native-born returnee" may have a better chance of work if attitudes toward immigration, repatriation, land rights, etc., changed.'

Well at least we're getting closer to the truth: WAV wants immigration policy changed to give him a beeter chance of getting a job. He hasn't explained why he has more right to that job than an immigrant, save an accident of birth; nor has he explained why it is fair or right that thousands of people from non-western countries should be condemned to a life of grinding poverty and despair for themselves and their children, just to help his employment prospects.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM

IB - "mono-cultural shit-hole of pre-1960s England"...so all the talk from our elders of better community spirit, being able to leave their front door open without fear, etc., is nonsense?

I keep my front door open (or at least I did until we got 3 large dogs that like to bark at the neighbours and will get out unless the door is locked) in multicultural Israel, in the year 2008. It helps that I live in a small community where we all know each other. Were I to live in the city, I would lock my doors, certainly.
You'll find that this was the case even centuries ago, when England supposedly was a far more English place, just look at some Hogarth or read about the Fielding brothers.

Volgadon: The "native-born returnee" may be fully qualified and willing to do the job of the immigrant; the "native-born returnee" may have a better chance of work if attitudes toward immigration, repatriation, land rights, etc., changed.

Wav, how many of the positions you applied for were given to immigrants? Come on, be honest. Don't you think the problem might be that you don't interview well?

There's a programme on TV here called "Wanted Down Under" and, at the end of it, a couple have to decide between Australia or staying here - I haven't watched all the episodes (there's jobsearching to be done, etc.) but not once have I heard any consideration given to Aborigines and land rights...so, more than 2 centuries on, for some or many here, they still don't enter the equation when it comes to leaving here for there, which I find revolting.

As far as I'm aware of, it is about families moving to big cities, such as Adelaide. I'm pretty sure they aren't taking up more land, unless you are proposing that the entire city be uprooted, the inhabitants transferred, the land returned to the Kaurna. In the which case, in avoidance of hypocrisy, are you also a proponent of being uprooted yourself so the land can be given back to the ancient Britons? Might I remind you that your surname is Franks, not Caratacus.

Back on thread, recorder may come from the olde English word "recorden" which means to warble or sing and I, for one, at least try to play it like I sing and sing like I play.

Wav, that is cobblers. Shows that you don't do credible research, but rely on websites such as this one. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A471359

Try this on for size.

"It has long been suggested that the earliest reference to the recorder is provided by the household accounts of the Earl of Derby (later King Henry IV) for 1388 which mention i. fistula in nomine Ricordo, a flute called a Ricordo. Trowell (1957) remarks that ricordo is Italian for a "remembrance, souvenir, keepsake, memento, sign of friend-ship, token", derived from the Latin recordari (to remember), and notes further that during the Middle Ages, the gift of a musical instrument was a recognised custom of civility and a means to obtaining a reward, and indeed an excellent 'memento' of favours received or expected. Although the Italian origin of ricordo itself has been questioned (Bornstein 1987: 45-56; Griscom & Lasocki 1994: 19), Higbee (1965: 128) supports Trowell's derivation of 'recorder' from a form of the Latin recordari. Wright (1965: 341) suggests an origin from the English 'to record', meaning to memorise, to recall, to practice and to recite, to sing or to play and thus the Earl of Derby's ricordo may represent no more than an attempt to render a pre-existing English word 'recorder' in a Latin document." (http://www.recorderhomepage.net/medieval.html)

The rest of the page is interesting, it suggests that recorders were a fad from Europe.

again, I hate imprialism/white supremecy, etc. - be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other.

Imperialism and white supremacy (I don't know where you got supremecy from, is it an American, or perhaps Australian variant?) are hardly synonymous, so why the back slash? I have asked you this, I think, three times. Do you consider imperialism to be imposing one's culture and or set of ideas on someone else?

And "Without immigration, England had no culture worth a shit."?!
And "grey monochrome flavourless bland as boiled fucking cabbage"?!...I think these are the views of an extreme pro-immigrationist which, if I wasn't around, a lot of the people here would oppose; and one of the reasons I won't permanently "fuck off back to Australia" is because I genuinely DO like our English cultural heritage.

He is absolutely right, Wav. Without immigration, indeed, without imperialism, the English culture that you profess to love, even that 'far more English' England of 50 years ago, would not be around. As I pointed out, your own surname is not an ancient Briton one. Not even Anglo-Saxon. The Normans, your ancestors, were some of the biggest imperialists and capitalist immigrants the world has known.

Radish - "That's a 'Yes', then. England should be mono-cultural, nobody should come here except asylum seekers from a nearby country, and those who do come here should assimilate to 'English culture'."...I've said economic/capitalist (NOT ALL)immigration/emigration should stop, the world over, from now on...and I've also given examples of other kinds of immigration/emigration above.

The beauty in this is that there AREN'T any neighbouring countries with this sort of refugee problem, so England won't have to be soiled by any asylum seekers! That is, unless there are some from Iceland, as I assume he would guide the French to Spain or Germany.

Wav, do you consider yourself a Christian? If the answer be yes, do you believe in the New Testament?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM

"In reality, questioning immigration is VERY right-wing, and reactionary, xenophobic right-wing at that."

Whose reality is that?

No disrespect intended, but I think you're grossly over-simplifying the issue.

As a generalisation it's not true. Everything should be questioned. Free speech should be the priority, even if we don't agree with what's being said. The original statement said 'questioning', not 'curtailing'."

Where did I suggest preventing free speech? He has a right to say it, but it is still a nasty, reactionary, right-wing whinge about how they come here to steal our jobs and ruin our culture.
The difference, in this case, between curtailing and questioning is that he would curtail immigration IF HE COULD.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

You didn't suggest preventing free speech and I wasn't accusing you of it. That post was answering Don Firth and I wasn't accusing him of it either. Sorry if you were misled.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM

I did comment on this in the "5,000 Morris Dancers" thread. I had no direct response to my posting, probably because it added fuel to neither side of the debate.

To paraphrase my earlier comments, I'm not aware of any country in the world that does not question immigration, and, with reference to the previous posting, I'm not aware of any country that doesn't curtail immigration to a lesser or greater extent. It's not rocket science to work out why this is the case. Why are you lot still banging on about it?

Too much axe-grinding, not enough common sense!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

melodeonboy:

Spot on mate.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM

You need to realize Wavynutless that your failure to gain employment is your fault. For any number of obvious reasons such as your conceited and abrasive personality, racist attitude, bigoted and xenophobic utterings, and some I'm sure are less obvious to interviewers, you don't get hired! Because Alf Ramsey won a soccer game on your day of birth and got his hat blown by your Mum as a reward later the next week does not entitle you to employment.

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM

Ruth - as usual you avoid and cut and twist things because you don't like immigration being questioned; I repeat, is the solution to leave, or to stay and be part of the solution?; has all the mass economic/capitalist immigration/emigration of the last century ended the rotten inequality in the world? No - the solution is, rather...

Poem 105 of 230: GLOBAL REGULATIONISM

No income-scale would be unjust -
    It's a matter of degree;
And, to have less inequality,
    Regulations are a must.

For, in Millennium's status quo,
    The pay-gaps for human work,
And what's gotten simply as a perk,
    Are wrong - inhumanely so.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

"The Normans, your ancestors, were some of the biggest imperialists and capitalist immigrants the world has known." (Volgadon)...you are so, almost imperialistically, sure of yourself, Volgadon - I'm only sure that all my known forebears were born here; I've heard about the crusading Franks, of course; I've heard that my great grandfather may have practised the jewish religion; I've heard about a famous Jewish family of spectacle makers in Manchester's past; and I've heard something about Franks coming here as translators during Bede's day..."The Normans, your ancestors"...wow, such confidence!
And again - "there AREN'T any neighbouring countries with this sort of refugee problem, so England won't have to be soiled by any asylum seekers! That is, unless there are some from Iceland, as I assume he would guide the French to Spain or Germany." (Volgadon)
"Wav, do you consider yourself a Christian? If the answer be yes, do you believe in the New Testament?" (Volgadon)...yes, "When I survey the wondrous" cross is atop my myspace playlist (I used to move it back down on Mondays but can't at the moment...anyone else still having this trouble since the changes?).
Catspaw: because I have been prepared to take temporary, whilst prefering permanent, contracts, I've actually worked for several companies here/got through several interviews where, of course, I keep my political mouth shut - even when faced with comments such as "Why ON EARTH did you come back?" or "You must be mad", partly because there was so much pro-immigrationism here during the Blair years, which New Labour have only just begun to question (introducing English tests, etc.).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:26 AM

"The Normans, your ancestors, were some of the biggest imperialists and capitalist immigrants the world has known." (Volgadon)...you are so, almost imperialistically, sure of yourself, Volgadon - I'm only sure that all my known forebears were born here; I've heard about the crusading Franks, of course; I've heard that my great grandfather may have practised the jewish religion; I've heard about a famous Jewish family of spectacle makers in Manchester's past; and I've heard something about Franks coming here as translators during Bede's day..."The Normans, your ancestors"...wow, such confidence!

How is that IMPERIALISTICALLY sure of myself? You make no sense.
Out of curiosity, how far back do your known forebearers go? I bet it's not 1066, in which case my point holds up.
Oho, so if Jewish, then your ancestors were definitely immigrants, and quite probably CAPITALISTIC ones to boot. Who have you heard from about that, it wasn't that comment on the weekly walkabout was it? Franks is also a Jewish surname, but do you have any reason to think that your ancestors were Jewish? Just the turn of phrase, practised the Jewish religion tells me that they weren't.
Franks came over in Bede's day, but they didn't carry that surname (simply didn't exist), which is a later, Norman one! Even if they were those ones, they still IMMIGRATED!

The crusading Franks??? Frank was just a generic term back then, which in the Muslim world came to mean ANY Christian, even Armenians.


And again - "there AREN'T any neighbouring countries with this sort of refugee problem, so England won't have to be soiled by any asylum seekers! That is, unless there are some from Iceland, as I assume he would guide the French to Spain or Germany." (Volgadon)

Was there any point you were trying to make by quoting me?



What do you think of this verse, from the New Testament, which you profess to believe:
1st Timothy 5:8- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

has all the mass economic/capitalist immigration/emigration of the last century ended the rotten inequality in the world? No - the solution is, rather...

What you are proposing is a totalitarian world presided over by an absolute power, wherein everything last damn thing is regulated - policed by a higher authrority. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. It couldn't work without the death camps for dissidents and undesirables of whom, I dare say, there would be millions, myself included. But no doubt that's all part of your plan. Read some history books, WAV - or look at some websites - see how absurd and unworkable such ideas have been proved to be. With every word you write you conform your self-obsessed reactionary right-wing racist agenda.

so all the talk from our elders of better community spirit, being able to leave their front door open without fear, etc., is nonsense?

Yes it is. Utter and absolute nonsense. The locks on our doors are the price we pay for freedoms inconceivable to our grandparents generation.

and one of the reasons I won't permanently "fuck off back to Australia" is because I genuinely DO like our English cultural heritage.

Which is why in the fifteen years you have been here, you have shown no effort to learn our music, our songs, our ways, our history, our culture. So why on earth did you come back anyway? If you can't assimilate yourself into our own good multi-ethnic culture of the United Kingdom as it is today, then, as I suggest, please go home and take your right-wing racist propagandising with you.

Just as you moved to the North-East because it has the lowest percentage of ethnic minorities in the UK (just 3.6% of a national average of 13.1% - as oppose to an obviously intolerable 7.9% in your native North West - see Here) you came to Mudcat because you mistakenly assumed Folkies would by predisposed to your nauseating vision of a mono-cultural England. Trouble is, at the heart of Folk Music is the very soul of Humanity, of an enlightenment the nature of which is evidently inconceivable to you.

As with England, so in Mudcat and the Folk Scene as a whole. You're in the wrong place, Wavy.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM

My last post didn't post, but I was going to say that the open door thing is not only utter nonsense, but very rose-tinted nonsense at that. I provided a lot of good links from Regency and Victorian records of why people WOULDN'T leave doors open!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:48 AM

PS.

Just as you moved to the North-East because it has the lowest percentage of ethnic minorities in the UK

You've already stated that England was a more English place 50 years ago; no doubt you feel, at 3%, the North East is a more English place than London at 40%. Perhaps you feel this somehow isn't racist, in which case you are deluding yourself.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:52 AM

There was a fascinating programme on Channel 4 some months ago, in which the art critic Andrew Graham-Dixon interviewed 10 people, "Little Englander" types, who believed - for example - that anyone who couldn't trace their origins back several generations in England didn't deserve to be called English. You know the sort of stuff: anti-immigration, anti-anyone not 100% English, etc. They all agreed to take a full DNA test to see where their antecedents lay. What was wonderful about the programme was that, not only did they all have ancestry from all over the world - including, by the way, Carol Thatcher (Middle East!) - but that the most recalcitrant and virulent "Little Englander" of the lot had 90% of his ancestry from Russia, the Middle East, the Mediterranean area, etc.

I've traced my family tree back to the 16th century on both father's and mother's side and discovered mainly "English" parentage, with some "Irish" and "Scottish" thrown in. But so what? How the hell do I know where my ancient roots were? And does it matter a f*ck? Of course it doesn't! It's as much nonsense as Hitler's concept of "Aryanism" - and that from someone (Hitler) with Jewish roots.

To think of a line of culture and nationality as pure is childish and idiotic.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM

When will you all catch on ? WalkaboutsVerse threads are to discuss WalkaboutsVerse, nothing else, the man is a self obsessed imbecile.

eric, [ just in from the pub ]

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM

Hi eric - yes, we all know that, but we just can't resist a punt t him, can we?

Will (also just back from imbibing Harveys Bitter and Glenmorangie in the local).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:03 PM

It's all about WAV?

Even if that were true and he really is just a delusional romantic and doesn't even know what Gobineau's poisonous ideology consists of and leads to, he still needs to be countered at every turn. Probably someone said this earlier (and if they didn't they should . . . I should have done): if just one casual visitor to this site sees this sort of racist filth (OK, I'll stretch to be charitable, even if unintentional) lying unchallenged, it's a greater threat to the credibility of our music than anything else. Did anyone mention the parlous state of German trad music still, even 60 years on from the fall of Hitler fascism? (If they didn't they should . . . I should have done). It exists only in university libraries, so tainted is it still. I spent two years trying to persuade them to do something - anything - other than Irish. OK, they'll do urban people's music (and very good some of it is) but nothing from the past. They just . . . can't.

I've been told by 'da management' not to talk about WAV's Master Plan anywhere but on this thread. So the struggle continues HERE. It's one tbing that trad music and dance is ridiculed. Ultimately that won't hurt it. But Martin Carthy wasn't quite right in saying that the ony harm you can do is NOT to play it. It also needs to be protected and kept from the hands of monoculturalist wreckers.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

In among all the other rubbish he just posted because he hates not me but immigration being questioned, I must respond to these words in my mouth: "Just as you moved to the North-East because it has the lowest percentage of ethnic minorities in the UK" (IB)...I've NEVER said this, and it was NOT the reason: I was UE in Manchester, and spent a weekend checking out the NE - another good place for the kind of manufacturing I've long been in and out of for years - via trains...

Poem 162 of 230: TEES TO TYNE: FIRST IMPRESSIONS - SUMMER 2001

Where traditions are not so rare;
    Sea, country and works scent the air;
A multitude of monuments,
    Planted tubs and patterned pavements.

The longish pedestrian malls;
    The remnants of defensive walls;
"Broken-roofed buildings" are a gauge
    Of the respect for heritage.

Wheat, rape and pines in the fields;
    Estuaries guarded by shields;
Long sandy beaches and wide scenes;
    Romantic-ruin go-betweens.

Rivers in parts licked by trees,
    Or fringed by boat clubs, wharfs, gantries,
And crossed by practical delights -
    Varied spans, forming pleasing sights.

Fine churches headed at Durham;
    Football kits ad infinitum;
Kept castles - one for study;
    Masonry behind masonry.

And, with moulding-works out that way,
It's somewhere for a longer stay..?

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

(IB - as I have, rather, said to you before, there's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use.)

Will - given/accepting all that, as I keep stressing, what is best FROM NOW ON...

Diane Easby: "racist filth" is false and defamatory filth (I've only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT criticised any particular culture or race); and then "I spent two years trying to persuade them to do something - anything - other than Irish."...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

I've only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT criticised any particular culture or race

To say that you're racist doesn't mean that you've criticised any particular culture or race. (While I'm about it, we're well aware that you love the world being multicultural.) You want to preserve English culture by excluding foreign influences. In other words, you want to exclude foreign people from England (from now on, if you insist), because you see them as a threat to the purity of English culture. That is racism.

Any chance of giving some thought to my question about assimilation, by the way? You've said earlier that it's a bad thing when people lose their culture; in many ways I tend to agree. But doesn't that mean that it's a good thing when immigrants keep their culture alive?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

"I've only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT criticised any particular culture or race."

That's disingenuous, David. If you can get "immigration itself" banned, then you wouldn't have to be bothered by the presence of any other race or culture.

One law to keep all the wogs out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

I didn't say you were, consciously and wittingly, a storm-trooping racist. I indicated (giving the example of those pursuing the doctrines of Gobineau) that the pattern of discrimation, inequality and ultimately, extermination first of culture and then of those members of "inferior" races as taken to its ultimate conclusion in the Third Reich, leads down that path. That is the tragedy of those like you unable to think logically. "I'm not a racist but . . . ". There's always a "justifying" but. You say it will stop after the elimination of vestiges of "alien" culture, your particular bee in bonnet being musical instruments that did not originate in England. The reality is otherwise. Go figure.

German musicians will not play their own traditional music, they play Irish instead. Their culture is a shameful thing to them, because it was hijacked for the "Aryan Cause". Yes, they're ashamed of their own songs and tunes, as all of us would be if we survived a parallel event here. Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

I've NEVER said this

Wavy, if you were hell-bent of absolute purity of your repatriation you'd be living in the place you were born rather than floundering round as an economic migrant in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. One must ask why, and when one looks at the facts and figures over at the Commission for Racial Equality site and looks at such Wavisms as England was a more English place 50 years ago, then it's not so much a matter as putting words into your mouth as it is doing the math.

as I have, rather, said to you before, there's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use

What I want is an unregulated world of freely evolving organic culture and humanity much as we've enjoyed for the last 35,000 years or so, give or take the occasional hiccough. What you want, on the other hand, is a Fourth Reich Totalitarian World Order based on absolute racial and cultural segregation and a complete reactionary suppression of anything that doesn't fit into your insane notion of what constitutes Englishness. Tactics? First look at our desires, Wavy - only then think about tactics.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

- We humans all blend into the one bland culture..OR..
- A multicultural world including nations with a multiple number of cultures trying to live peacefully under the one state law, or having different laws for different cultures withing the one nation..OR..
- As is my myspace header "a multicultural WORLD" with eco-travel and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger more-democratic UN - rather than yet more conquest and ecnonomic/capitalist immigration/emigration (which has NOT solved the rotten inequality in our world).

Back on thread, the tenor recorder/English flute is chromatic for about 2 octaves from middle C, so, when one does get the fingering correct, it sings what's on the score.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM

When you say multicultural WORLD, you mean a world comprised of different MONOCULTURES which do not mix. One can enjoy watching the different cultures, much as one does animals in their cages in the zoo.

What do you think of this verse, from the New Testament, which you profess to believe:
1st Timothy 5:8- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

"The Normans, your ancestors, were some of the biggest imperialists and capitalist immigrants the world has known." (Volgadon)...you are so, almost imperialistically, sure of yourself, Volgadon - I'm only sure that all my known forebears were born here; I've heard about the crusading Franks, of course; I've heard that my great grandfather may have practised the jewish religion; I've heard about a famous Jewish family of spectacle makers in Manchester's past; and I've heard something about Franks coming here as translators during Bede's day..."The Normans, your ancestors"...wow, such confidence!

How is that IMPERIALISTICALLY sure of myself? You make no sense.
Out of curiosity, how far back do your known forebearers go? I bet it's not 1066, in which case my point holds up.
Oho, so if Jewish, then your ancestors were definitely immigrants, and quite probably CAPITALISTIC ones to boot. Who have you heard from about that, it wasn't that comment on the weekly walkabout was it? Franks is also a Jewish surname, but do you have any reason to think that your ancestors were Jewish? Just the turn of phrase, practised the Jewish religion tells me that they weren't.
Franks came over in Bede's day, but they didn't carry that surname (simply didn't exist), which is a later, Norman one! Even if they were those ones, they still IMMIGRATED! I repeat, no Franks went by the surname Franks, so I can say with confidence that they were probably Norman.

The crusading Franks??? Frank was just a generic term back then, which in the Muslim world came to mean ANY Christian, even Armenians.


And again - "there AREN'T any neighbouring countries with this sort of refugee problem, so England won't have to be soiled by any asylum seekers! That is, unless there are some from Iceland, as I assume he would guide the French to Spain or Germany." (Volgadon)

Was there any point you were trying to make by quoting me?