England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

Crap, I barely missed bagging that.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

Ross Campbell played his [Fylde] cittern at Fleetwood Folk Club last night. Now Fyldes are built in England, Ross is Scotts, should he be allowed to play it? Discuss

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM

No, he is a traitor to the Scottish nationalists and should be exiled by the UN.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM

Ross is Scotts, should he be allowed to play it?

Of course he shouldn't! Have you learned nothing??? He should only ever play Highland Pipes from his own good culture!

I'm sure WAV will confirm that I am on message...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

Oh dear - I do hope he isn't offended and in a huff.

Here's a poem to cheer you up WaV:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vS5QMT-JUt4

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM

My collection and previous posts DO cover the queries posted since my last post, but perhaps an experience this Halloween may help - again, I was called "mad" for leaving sunny Australia, by a middle-aged lady, who quickly added that her daughter and partner are soon going for 5 weeks with a view to emigrating, and that she'd love to emigrate there herself. I didn't ask whether she also thought all the immigrants here from just as sunny lands were also "mad", but I did of course stress that I hope they enjoy their VISIT, and tried, in vain, for some consideration of Aborigines and land rights, and the point that most Australian citizens probably have their air-conditioning on as much as most here have the central-heating on. It reminded me again of the TV show "Wanted Down Under" where, whenever I've watched, the couples never mention land rights when they make their final decision between Australia and here; it's now more than 2 centuries since Captain Cook declared Australia "terra nullius" - there IS a pressing need for re-education .

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM

NO THEY DON'T COVER THESE POINTS:

As you have not answered, I must conclude that you agree that immigrants should assimilate. Why then did your parents and yourself not assimilate? Why do you still consider yourself English? Or if you don't consider yourself Australian, why do you have dual citizenship and why did you wait 30 years before repatriating, instead of at the first available opportunity?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM

Why don't you go back to Australia and fight for Aboriginal land rights if you're so bothered about it? I think that's a red herring to avoid answering awkward questions. You did manage to plant another link to your website though I see.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:15 PM

You're full of shit Wavydickless. That ain't just a red herring in your case, its a giantass, bloated, smelly, carp. Aboriginal land rights my ass...........Like you'd give two shits. What a limp loser bigot you are............

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:36 PM

You have to admit, it's a shrewd move - choosing Newcastle to find a job and fight for Aboriginal land rights. Not many people would have the intelligence to do that.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM

Yes - Newcastle upon Tyne, Smokey, is the place within England, the county of my birth, where I have, as a repatriate, chosen to try and settle; but it's not just Aboriginal land rights that I've at least tried to support...

Poem 52 of 230: OUT OF PLACE

As I paid my bus fee
    To leave Nairobi,
A woman caught my eye:
    From what I could see
(Red garb, bead jewellery),
    She was a Masai.

From anthropology,
    I'd heard how stubbornly
They try to defy
    Factors tending to be
Against them culturally -
    I like the Masai.

Now, from my T.V.,
    News has reminded me
That space tourists buy,
    In order to see
Big-game roaming free,
    Belonged to Masai.

They live nomadically:
    With cows, they go-look-see
To get enough supply
    Of grass - whose energy,
Converted, comes to be
    The life-keep of Masai.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Back a bit more on-thread, way back, Jack, I think, mentioned the tenor recorder/English flute being a tad too heavy - but there are thumb rests that also help as orientation guides for the fingers to cover what can be quite tricky and large holes (if not quite as large as one or two on the low-whistle).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:32 AM

"They live nomadically:
    With cows, they go-look-see
To get enough supply
    Of grass - whose energy,
Converted, comes to be
    The life-keep of Masa"

Pure crap.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:56 AM

Well to be fair, its not only pure crap but does a wonderful job of showing his complete ignorance. Also, am I the only one who thinks the tone of that one is like a plantation master saying he likes his slaves?

I suggest Franks that you remove your head from your ass and go "look-see" without bias at what the world really offers. Then get a real fuckin' job so your "life-keep" (that one is priceless shit!) comes from your own labors and not living off the backs of your betters you miserable, sniffling, pissant.

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:05 PM

Tonight we're going to Brook known as Mellor.
We're playing some folk stuff for a feller
One of our instruments is a recorder
Most of them aren't and I'll put them in order

One is a flute that is silver and shiny
One is a fiddle that's stringy and whiny
One is a cajon that from cuba comes
And on it, e.g., some of the players sit on their bums
One is a mouth organ well played by rose
We haven't got a flute played by nose
One is a bass that is resonant and low
One's a bouzouki from Ireland you know
Our caller plays a mandolin
tear drop shape like a terrapin
One is a concertina made by Lachenal
Who could be a Frenchman or perhaps e.g., a French gal
One's a melodeon made in Italy
We call it a banf but would you call it folk?

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM

Thanks Stu, but...

Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: MaineDog
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM

Being somewhat into choral music, I just bought a double CD of modern English choral music. Hearing it was wonderful, and has caused me to decide that the English national instrument is -- the boy.

MD

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:30 PM

Salisbury Cathedral Choir, established since the 13th century, nowadays has equal numbers of girls and boys.
Possibly they all play tennis too.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:44 PM

"Yes - Newcastle upon Tyne, Smokey, is the place within England, the county of my birth, where I have, as a repatriate, chosen to try and settle; but it's not just Aboriginal land rights that I've at least tried to support..."

Newcastle upon Tyne is, or has been, nationally famed for its unemployment, particularly in the manufacturing industry. I think you went there to avoid having to get a job. You haven't done anything to support Aboriginal land rights other than pointing out to a few folkies that they don't mention it on some stupid TV program. Try supporting yourself, and actually contributing to the society for whom you are prescribing your ridiculous and offensive politics.

Speaking of choral music, have a listen to 'Spem in alium' by Thomas Tallis, and look when it was written. If that doesn't prove you wrong about polyphony, nothing will.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:02 PM

He added Hays Recruitment to his internet favourites, what more do you want?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:22 PM

Who pays for his internet?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:24 PM

Here we go, Smokey:    Clicky.

Gorgeous! Sounds like some pretty complex polyphony to me. Composed circa 1570.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM

Beautiful Don, thank you. 40 part polyphony - as far as I'm aware that's as complicated as it's ever got. If the human mind could come up with that in 1570, I reckon the 'peasants' would have been able to stick three chords behind a simple ditty. To assume otherwise is plain daft.

There was actually a German bloke much later who wrote another part to it, but he was probably just showing off..

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:50 PM

Sorry, meant to say 'complex' there, not 'complicated'.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM

I am watching a fascinating documentary about the Jews of Spain. It was made by Yitzhak Navon, former president of Israel, a man steeped in the traditions and lore of Spanish Jewry. He was one of the leading experts. Wonderful stuff, he shares stories about the places and people, and talks to the local. Navon was a gentleman and a scholar, who knew how to relate to people almost instantly.
Anyway, in Granada he met a troupe of Gypsies and decided to conduct a little experiment. He sang la serena, an old Ladino romance which his mother and her friends would sing. After the applaudisments were over, he asked them if they knew the song. Oh, of course we know la Serrana. They then proceeded to sing a very similar song, but in their own inimitable style. Neither the Israeli nor the Gypsies Own Good Culture were harmed by their singing what must have been a Spanish song.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:10 AM

Love this. A Ladino roamce with a flamenco arrangement, accompanied by an electric upright-bass, darbuka, and Armenian duduk as well as guitar. Long live multiculturalism! www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kFhqS1yMuI&NR=1

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

Wav, play close attention to this clip. It's of a bunch of young people having fun, playing music (not pop but folk), having fun!!!!
As far as I can tell the guys are native Israelis, the girl an immigrant from South America.
Percussion box, guitar and oud, playing a ladino song. Magic.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJXSHWjUzb8&feature=related

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:40 AM

"Salisbury Cathedral Choir, established since the 13th century, nowadays has equal numbers of girls and boys.
Possibly they all play tennis too." (Diane)...add "table" for the females and WAV, for one, would be quite happy with all that.

"Speaking of choral music, have a listen to 'Spem in alium' by Thomas Tallis, and look when it was written. If that doesn't prove you wrong about polyphony, nothing will." (Smokey)...but that is not an E. trad. - it is "BY THOMAS TALLIS".

And as for WORLD MUSIC, Volgadon...

"World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other" (here).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:53 AM

You're a wind-up merchant.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:46 AM

Stigweard - well noticed.

It's occurred to me recently that when someone strikes you as dishonest and evasive, challenging that person repeatedly to admit to being dishonest and evasive probably isn't the best use of one's time. I've spent some time away from WAV's threads recently, and let me tell you, it's nice when it stops.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:52 AM

I think world music is a ridiculous term, it basically means non-English speaking music.

I profoundly disagree with you. People should feel free to share and interact as they feel like. I shared an example with you, a traditional, folk example from Israel, the nigunei meron, which you have ignored.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM

Here is a personal expereince of mine. What do you have to say to it, Wav?

A few years ago I was at some youth thing. A Ukrainian girl sang Katyusha in Russian. A Mexican girl joined in, in Spanish. I sang a verse in Hebrew and someone added English. Did society suffer because we 'lost' Our Own Good Culture? No, but we were all better friends for finding something in common.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM

He's winding you up V!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

As I paid my bus fee
    To leave Nairobi,
A woman caught my eye:
    From what I could see
(Red garb, bead jewellery),
    She was a Masai.

Is it just me, or is that one of the most jaw-droppingly, arse-clenchingly, adjective-beggaringly bad pieces of pseudo-poetic drivel that even this whinging wannabe Pom has ever posted.
There must be the poetic equivalent of the Bulwer Lytton prize that he could chase?
I have a vision of some jobless, benefit-scrounging, narrow-minded little parasite mopping his brow in a florid fashion with a dirty nylon handkerchief and imagining himself to be Chatterton. Shame he doesn't go the whole bloody hog...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM

I wish that said

'a woman caught my eye
and dragged it down the street'

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:07 PM

"Salisbury Cathedral Choir, established since the 13th century, nowadays has equal numbers of girls and boys. Possibly they all play tennis too." (Diane)...add 'table' for the females and WAV, for one, would be quite happy with all that.

Head like a ROCK!!    Despite all evidence, he will consider no opinion but his own. (I hear vast choruses of "SEXIST PIG!!!" out there. . . .)

"Speaking of choral music, have a listen to 'Spem in alium' by Thomas Tallis, and look when it was written. If that doesn't prove you wrong about polyphony, nothing will." (Smokey)...but that is not an E. trad. - it is 'BY THOMAS TALLIS.'"

That "Spem in alium" by Thomas Tallis is composed and not traditional is well-spotted, David, but the fact that you either don't recognized or refuse to acknowledge that what people heard being sung in church had a powerful effect on the way they sang demonstrates that you either do not understand ethnomusicology, or refuse to accept its findings.

Your head's made up. I guess you would prefer that the world shouldn't be trying to confuse you with such upsetting things as reality.

Sorry about that. . . .

####

Notes on Music History:

Plainsong (also plainchant) is a body of traditional songs used in the liturgies of the Roman Catholic Church. The liturgies of the Eastern Orthodox Church, though similar in many ways and probably older than the Roman tradition, are generally not classified as plainsong. Plainsong is also commonly used in the Anglican churches.

Plainsong is monophonic -- consisting of a single, unaccompanied melodic line. It is in free, rather than measured, rhythm. Plainsong often uses the lengthy reverberations and resonant modes of cathedrals to create harmonies.

In the late 9th century, plainsong began to evolve into organum, which led to the development of polyphony. The term "harmony" didn't come into common usage until the early 1700s, but it (the simultaneous sounding of two or more notes) was common practice as early as the Middle Ages.

Among other things, part-singing was necessary to accommodate different vocal ranges. Initially, though plainsong consisted of one line, the lower voices would sing a "drone" or "pedal point" note, putting a bass under the melody line.

Further reading.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:19 PM

".but that is not an E. trad. - it is 'BY THOMAS TALLIS.'"

All 'E trad' music (I think I now despise that term) had to be composed by somebody. The product of human imagination. I was referring to the level of complexity of which the human mind was capable at that time, as you well know. (I'm with Louis Armstrong on the definition of folk music) Listen and be amazed; it is a positive, enlightening and pleasurable experience that I would recommend to anyone. I was trying to do you a favour. If you don't like it, fair enough - I think I made my point - you are only pretending not to understand it in order to continue getting attention. Maybe you have no real friends - I don't know - but unlike some of the good and patient people on this forum, I don't really care.

You'd do well to listen to Don, WaV, he knows his stuff. Really. And he has a great deal more patience than I have.

Stop exploiting the good nature of these people, WaV; you are simply advertising the fact that you are either an ignorant fool or a malicious time waster.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

But it's a very effective advertising campaign, don't you agree? Over one thousand posts, and still he excites debate. Remarkable, really. Would that Obama could elicit such passion!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:37 PM

Not debate so much as rebuttal and correction Gervase

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

Not even a mass-debate?
(Sorry)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:45 AM

And what good has this exposure done him? Antagonised nearly every single person who has posted to the thread, that's what it has done.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:13 AM

Yes, but he's not doing it for us. We're giving him a platform to broadcast his racist views, his dishonest arguments and his bloody awful poetry to Mudcat readers - he's using this thread as his personal open mike. And as long as we keep responding, it'll keep bobbing up to the top of the list.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:26 AM

And the less people will listen.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM

You mean you hope that FEWER people will listen.
But don't you believe it.
There's always another benighted sucker that'll come along and say WAV has as much right to his 'opinion' as anyone else.
No he hasn't.
Time to bring back NO PLATFORM FOR RACISTS AND FASCISTS.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:40 AM

Strangely and sadly I think WAV believes what he says. It's not a belief system based on normal reasoning and education, but closer to the type of belief system of the brainwashed members of the various religious and political cults that crop up from time to time. I think he may be a sincere person somewhere in the muddled thinking.

Perhaps a lot of us want to rescue him.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:52 AM

Rescue him?
Well, I've tried. A lot of us have.
You can close your front door on weird and earnest any-god sellers but WAV (and one or two others I could mention but won't) just insinuate themselves again and again and again to spout dangerous drivel and there's always someone new who swallows it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:15 AM

It's a wind up.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:59 AM

Don and Smokey (which could also be a description for most of the posts that followed): while the changes/developments you post were going on in churches and courts, folk in England and other countries did persist, over the centuries, with their oral tradition of unaccompanied singing and dance tunes - a tradition which, as an English repat., I GENUINELY like.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM

WOW........And just think if you had been a part of that back then Wavybigot. All the songs would have been off-key and barely recognizable by the time YOU trashed them. Then today, there would be no decent English folksong tradition.

Now go back to the mirror and look at yourself and repeat, "I am a bigot and a racist with no talent. I am a worthless piece of crap and my Mummy blows hogs."

The truth shall set you free!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:13 AM

...e.g....

Poem 193 of 230: THE 35TH MORPETH NORTHUMBRIAN GATHERING – SPRING 2002

Toward Morpeth's Gathering,
    Either side of Great North Road,
Daffodils gleefully showed
    Their stalk-dressing flowering.

And then, at the Gathering,
    Another great flowering
Of English heritage, showed
    Through competitions that glowed
With compitent folk-singing,
    Storytelling, bag-piping
(The small-pipes rapidly rode
    By hands, in staccato mode),
Clogdancing and stick-dressing:
    Things that are worth addressing.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:21 AM

Perhaps you're beyond redemption WAV. Repeating numerous erroneous claims doesn't make them true - it makes them repetitive.

Probably Diane's right with her charge of 'dangerous drivel'. I don't go along with Stigweard - I think wind-ups demand a certain level of humour and intelligence (however misdirected) Neither seem evident in your posts.

In my wild moments I believe you're a computer program caught in an endless loop.

Stu