England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM

West gallery singing also includes harmonies. Once you learn to make harmonies in church, why would you not use them when singing secular songs?

The collectors often went round and collected individuals. With someone like Vaughan Williams, for instance, he was specifically interested in captering and preserving folk melodies, and not necessarily preserving the ways in which those songs were sung. He didn't often collect people in the natural environment of the pub, for instance, but alone, in their own homes, and he didn't record very much, but largely notated tunes. He did used to go to pubs and hear singers, but I don't think he really talks about whether there was any collective or harmony singing in these cases, or whether the singing was ever accompanied.

Yes, there is a strong tradition of solo, unaccompanied singing in England, but that doesn't mean that it was the ONLY tradition. Some of the living traditions we still have, for instance, would suggest otherwise. The Copper family sing harmonies, and their tradition goes back at least eight generations. Sheffield Carols, still sung each year in the village pubs, contain strong, spontaneous harmonies. And though I've never been to any shepherd's or hunt meets to hear any singing, I'd be interested to know whether people sing in harmony - I know that Will Noble and John Cocking, for instance, do.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM

When people sang unaccompanied, they usually did so when working. You can't really play an instrument when working a loom, or driving a forklift, for that matter. Not only that, but it's hard to sing parts BY ONE'S SELF. They would also sing musical hall songs UNACCOMPANIED, melody only, despite these songs usually being performed WITH accompaniment and parts.
There is a good body of evidence (such as west gallery music and pub pianos) suggesting that they could and would accompany songs when possible.

The guitar is far more versatile than the cittern, so why would MC drop an instrument which has been an extension of his being in favour of an inferior one just because it once had English in the title?

Don, superb post. I've run into a similar problem in my personal life, which has just created immense problems for me and someone else. This, in a category of immigration which Wav supposedly approves of.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:21 AM

"Thus, the EFDSS recording of Joseph Taylor singing "Creeping Jane" "

You refer to this recording repeatedly. What other traditional recordings are you basing your argument on?

I'm not disputing it, actually - I just want to know whether, as with so many aspects of your flawed ideology, you don't actually have a body of evidence but rather the odd scrap or example you've picked up somewhere.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:03 AM

I agree with some of that Eliza - but sorry I can't fathom which Greg you mean (although I'm gradually matching some of the nicknames to real names that some others seem to already know). Also, I think we do know that for centuries English folkies did sing the lyrics of E. trads mostly unaccompanied, via the simple repetition of a tune. Thus, the EFDSS recording of Joseph Taylor singing "Creeping Jane" or yourself singing "The Grey Cock" unaccompanied ARE pretty much what our folkier English forebears did for centuries (without recording/amplifying devices, for the most part, of course).
And, as for grey matters, curiousity killed the cat, but I'd still like to know if Martin has ever had the chance to try an English cittern, which looks and sounds a great instrument to me, as above.

For Ed:

Poem 206 of 230: MY DIET

Chasing breads, nuts, bananas,
    Red sauce, apples, sultanas,
Crackers, conserves, cucumbers,
    Pickles, porridge, pottages -

Lemon barley,
    Cocoa, coffee,
Or cups of tea.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Don - if you had read my poems (same above link), you'd know that I've looked, with a regulationist's eys, far beyond "immigration/emigration...who can sing which songs" (you) and "cups of tea" (me)!
To Woody via Smokey - I'd certainly tilt my forks that way.
Don, again - I'm glad things worked out okay for your ice-skating cum teaching sister...have you noticed that the ISU have recently brought in competition regulations whereby skaters, in some categories, must choose folk music - preferably, but not strictly, from their own nation; I do follow it, and did my bit to campaign for suchlike, via Eurosport; also, before these regulations came in, the Scottish dancers, the Kerrs, did this very enjoyably with Scottish folk tunes...have you seen them?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:13 AM

Don - the mistake was in how the company looking to employ your sister approached the issue. Even in those days the work permit regulations were clearly defined and lots of non-UK performers worked over here, particularly in entertainment.

You place the blame at the wrong door. The company looking to employ your sister obviously did not fully understand the UK rules and it is they that failed her in not doing their research and following the correct procedures before they offered her the job.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM

No point in that argument Don. Wav would have to
1. Read it
2. Understand it
3. Consider it.

Glad it worked out OK for your sister.

I had a similar experience in Jersey which has similar rules.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:45 AM

I was just illustrating the flaw in your argument Don, not necessarily agreeing with David. Unlike David, I don't assume anyone here would be remotely interested in my 'political' opinions, and I certainly wouldn't seek to promote them either. No offence.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:19 AM

Beneficial to someone, but a net loss for a whole bunch of other people, all but one of whom were English. And as I said, if she was that talented, they would have offered the job to her.

You agree with David, I take it?

Don Firth

P. S. Late for me. I'm going to bed. . . .

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:50 AM

But the regulation was beneficial to someone, all the same. The end result was one less unemployed skater. We really have no idea how good she was.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:00 AM

So how do I know she was a lesser talent? If she hadn't been, she would have been offered tha job instead of Pat.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:58 PM

Perhaps so, Smokey. But it prevented my sister engaging in further competitive skating. She had already established herself as a world-class figure skater, first by being there at all, and then by placing in the top ten her first time out. She could have gone on to other world championships or possibly the Olympics. Because she had accepted the offer of a professional job in good faith, the rules of the USFSA required reclassifying her as "professional," whether she got the job came through or not, and that put a stop to the possibility of any further championships.

I repeat, she accepted the job in good faith, and essentially, got screwed. By English regulations that no one told her about before she made her decision to accept the offer. And since the folks at Empress Hall didn't think of this as an ordinary job, like clerking in a store or working in a factory, but a job that required extraordinary attributes, it never occured to them that a work permit might be denied.

This sort of thing was not just a "job." It takes a unique combination of talent and charisma which my sister had, and the folks at Empress Hall recognized, which is why they approached her in the first place. I don't know who they got in my sister's place, but the folks at Empress Hall were not happy at having to "settle" for a lesser talent, just because she was English.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:22 PM

Except the person who actually got the job.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:05 PM

I might point out, David, the the regulations that you love so much did not protect English workers, it merely thwarted the needs and wishes of all parties concerned.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:47 PM

Here's how your immigrant/emigrant regulations work, David:

My sister, Patricia Firth (now Pat Hansen) was an avid figure skater when she was a little girl. She took to it with enthusiasm, took lessons, and practiced very hard. She gained experience early on skating in local skating club ice shows and became very good as a competitive skater. In time, she won two Pacific Coast Senior Ladies' figure skating championships, then in 1953 she won the United States Junior Ladies' Championship (CLICK and scroll down to 1953). This qualified her to compete for the United States in the 1955 World Championships in Vienna, Austria. There, she placed seventh overall, not bad for a young newcomer, especially against such powerhouses as Tenley Albright and Carol Heiss (CLICK and scroll down to 1953, right-hand column, 7th place).

A tour of Europe followed, sponsored by various European skating clubs. Pat skated exhibitions in Switzerland, Germany, France, and England.

In England, she received an offer: if she would drop competitive skating and turn professional, the ice show in residence at Empress Hall wanted to hire her as its featured attraction. Pat was young and beautiful, and an elegant figure skater. And she would be working with a number of notable performers, including comic Richard Hearn, aka "Mister Pastry." They told her (in confidence) that they wanted her to replace their current featured skater, a former English champion and occasional movie star, Belita, who had been skating with the show for nearly a decade, and even though she was still very good, as far as the audiences were concerned, she had passed her "sell-by" date. She was no longer the draw that she used to be.

My sister thought it over very carefully, decided that it was a marvelous opportunity, and accepted the offer.

Since it would be a few months before rehearsals for the new show were due to start, she returned to Seattle. At the appointed time, she was packed, had her plane ticket to London, and was about to depart when she received a telegram.

The British government had denied her a work permit. Their reasoning was that since there was an English woman who was not only capable of doing the job, but she was currently doing it. No consideration was given to the needs and wishes of the sponsors of the shows, nor to the wishes of the shows' audiences. Nor, for that matter, the wishes of Belita herself. An arbitrary, thoughtless decision.

So that ended that. Since Pat had signed a contract (pending the granting of a work permit) with Empress Hall, she was deemed by the United States Figure Skating Association as a "professional" and hence, could no longer skate competitively. She considered entering other ice shows such as the "Ice Capades" or the "Ice Follies," but decided to turn to teaching instead. It was while teaching at the Great Falls, Montana figure skating club, she met her future husband.

Everything worked out for my sister. She and her husband have three children, a couple of grandchildren, and currently live part of the year near Seattle and another part on Flathead Lake in Montana.

But British labor laws denied her the opportunity to become an international figure skating star. And deprived English audiences of an opportunity to see a very talented and elegant young performer.

Irony:

It turned out Belita was perfectly amenable to leaving the show to be replace by a new young American skater. Since the American girl had been denied a work permit, Belita agreed to stay on for another year. But—the powers that be at Empress Hall had merely anticipated Belita's announcement of her own decision.

The following year (1956), Gladys Lyne Jepson-Turner (born in Nether Wallop [I beg your pardon!!], Hampshire, England, known professionally as "Belita"), announced that she was retiring from show business. She went on to say that she had always hated show business in general and figure skating in particular and she had done it only because when she was a little girl, her mother had forced her into it.

Later, the former Belita opened a garden center in west London, then retired to the south of France, where she passed away in 2005 at the age of 82.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM

I doubt if anyone's actually interested, but it is possible to get a tune out of a fork-lift truck - although the use of accompaniment is, I gather, strongly deprecated in some circles.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM

Woody, what to do about it FROM NOW ON - re-education on many levels; the linking of English folk to English nationalism

WAV I was disappointed with your response. As I'm taking the time to try to understand the extent of what you're trying to say, perhaps you'll please do me the courtesy of actually answering my questions properly, with some of the attention and level of detail you must have shown to acquire your degree.

(1) - what you're saying is that in England we should only perform "good English music"?

(2) - If the answer to (1) is yes, does that mean that you think we should take some kind of action to preserve the purity of the English music that exists - as alluded to in your perform your own rule?

(3) - If the answer to both 1 & 2 is yes, what methods would you propose would be used to achieve and enforce this?

(4) - Given your documented attempts to live a more "authentic" English existence (pottage etc) do you think that there should be a wider effort to revive this English culture?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:28 PM

"I have a TV that tells me regulationism is replacing free-market capitalism."

It is true that television news worldwide is talking about an increase in regulation. But apparently David doesn't quite grasp what his telly is telling him.

It is hardly "regulationism" as an ideology.

I heard a news commentator remark yesterday that the current world-wide economic crisis was not the result of capitalism per se, but because there is a current dearth of capitalistic entrepreneurs (people who invent new things, produce new products, and offer new services) and a surplus of capitalistic speculators—people buying "futures" in products and services that may or may not ever exist. Later in the commentary, he referred to this as "a capitalist casino mentality."

Capitalism, with it's inherent profit motive and competition, functions quite well when it results in new and better products and services at lower prices, but experience has shown that without certain "rules of the road," it can degenerate into dog-eat-dog competition and speculation on profits from products and services that don't yet exist. When this reaches a critical point (as it did in 1929 and again currently), the balloon explodes and the economy collapses.

Government regulation, like those instituted during the Roosevelt administration in the 1930s, provides the needed "rules of the road" and watchdog agencies like the Securities and Exchange Commission and others, also initiated in the 1930s, police those rules to prevent the economy from reaching such a point. Unscrupulous businessmen bridled at the restrictions imposed by these regulations and the agencies that enforced them, and during the Reagan administration, through a combination of Reagan's "voodoo economics" policies and lobbying (bribing elected officials), they got many of these regulations rescinded. And by various means, they got the regulatory agencies staffed with their own people, who saw to it that the regulations that remained were not enforced.

The result is the current economic mess.

There is a strong move afoot, especially among the American people and some candidates for office (and people and governments of other countries also affect by the monetary crisis) for the reinstatement (or institution, if not already in place) of the kind of regulations, imposed by the Roosevelt administration in the 1930s, that were the major factor in ending the Great Depression.

THAT, David, is the kind of regulation you are currently hearing about on your telly. And it has nothing to do with immigration/emigration.

Nor who can sing which songs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM

Wav has a very shallow conception of culture.
For him, Greek culture is an Evzone sitting in a taverna playing Zorba the Greek on a bouzouki, maybe with a slice of feta on the side.
German culture is a boozy old Teuton in liederhosen playing oompa-oompa-ommpapa music.
Russian culture is a fur hat, boots and balalaikas.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

I can also recommend Thai sweet chilli sauce as an accompaniment for cold chicken or white Stilton (to go up against blue Stilton you need something a bit less delicate, like mango chutney). Haven't tried the garlic chutney - I'll look out for it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

Melton Mowbray pork pie and Thai sweet chilli sauce

Sounds lovely Ruth, must try it.

Sadly WAV won't. He'll be (as Diane amusingly noted)

eating pottage sandwiches fashioned from stotty cake

Ed

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

Mate...Melton Mowbray pork pie and Thai sweet chilli sauce. I swear, you'll thank me.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

Folk clubs restricting themselves in any way is a fairly new invention. The Watersons' early incarnation at the Bluebell booked, among other people, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee. It was only when they left that people starting talking about their "legacy", and booking only folkie acts. They were dismayed.
The point of the snake should not be that it eats its own tail. Some of the best folk clubs I've ever been to have had a lovely, varied bill of music from all cultures, poetry and performance. Folk clubs do not a tradition make. Proper folk and traditional music should be out and proud in the wider community, readily influenced and influential in turn. Be an expert in your own field by all means (please try it!!!!), but don't shut yourself away from the world. To freeze English music where you have it marked would be to base a tradition on only forty years of recording and a load of unsubstantiated guesswork, and to exclude the other people that have lived here alongside us for hundreds of years now. Surely that isn't right. Nobody knows what folk music sounded like two hundred years ago. I love that, it means we can make a new, informed sound now.
Personally, I have always had a problem with people singing in any other accent than their own, trying to mimic someone else's culture in the absence/ignorance of one of their own. But I recognise that the only way to get them to understand what they potentially have, fulfill the thing they may be missing in their lives, is simply to be as good as possible, win them round with kindness and excellence rather than proscription and lecturing.
David, have you ever investigated the music that Greg makes in his community? That is truly the way to do it. And if you want to cook old English food and offer it round as well, that's cool, it really is. But I'll have some Indian chutney on the side of mine, ta. Pork pie and Patak's garlic chutney go really well together, and neither ruins the other's taste, provenance or importance.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM

You have a TV, but that doesn't mean you know how to listen or to figure out what is going on.
Regulationism (stupid made up term) isn't replace free-market capitalism, what is happening is that gvts are having to step in to pay for mistakes and failures of certain large businesses. Merely replacing the owner, and not even that in many cases.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

I have a TV that tells me regulationism is replacing free-market capitalism. :-)>

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

I was Charter Member of the Bat Boat club. I even got a ribbon.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM

I have a Blue Peter badge.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM

I have a Tufty card.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:51 PM

largely due to ignorance and mis-education.

I've got the RYA Competent Crew Certificate. Does that count?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM

"the linking of English folk to English nationalism" (me)

NO!

I try not to take WAV seriously but I have to make it clear that, as someone involved in the running of a traditional Olde Englische Folke Clubbe, I will do everything I can (and as I reported above, already have) to keep English nationalism out of English folk music." (Snail)...as you must know, in Scotland and Wales it IS at least acceptable to be a nationalist, and many Scots have indeed unashamedly, and successfully, linked Scottish folk to Scottish nationalism - God's speed to them, and even more to English (non-imperialistic) nationalists, because in England it is still very much a dirty word (as your response shows), largely due to ignorance and mis-education. "Nationalism with conquest IS bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via the UN) is good for humanity" (me). And, for those of you have read my life's work (from same link), you surely can't deny that, the last few weeks, things have moved a bit closer to my way:
Poem # 75, 82, 98, 153, e.g.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Joseph P
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

Exactly my point!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM

'Hog Eye Man' . . . I wonder how that fits with the policy of performing English music?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with a policy adopted briefly by the membership of ONE club in the 60s. Martin C was merely remarking that AT THE TIME it was a wake up call for many (including himself) that there WAS English material there for the exploration. Waterson:Carthy, obviously, perform music from many different cultures with respect, as long as it is appropriate and can be adapted to their style. Martin's guitar style, for example, is derived principally from Big Bill Broonzy who is not, unless I'm badly mistaken, an English player. Norma Waterson includes much material of US origin in her repertoire and their daughter is renowned for collaborations with musicians from many and varied provenances. Possibly WAV is about to tell W:C they should be confining themselves to pipe and tabor and eating pottage sandwiches fashioned from stotty cake. I'd like to be a fly on the wall when this conversation takes place . . .

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM

So WAV, you'll agree with Martin's comment that:

"It is neither possible nor desirable to set up musical border checkpoints anywhere"

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM

I have some recordings (from the 80s?) of Martin Carthy singing African songs.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Joseph P
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:34 AM

On A CD I recently purchased, Rogues Gallery, by far one of my current favourite tracks is 'Hog Eye Man' performed by Waterson:Carthy. I wonder how that fits with the policy of performing English music? Oh and the drum and multi instrument accompaniament is great!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:33 AM

the linking of English folk to English nationalism

NO!

I try not to take WAV seriously but I have to make it clear that, as someone involved in the running of a traditional Olde Englische Folke Clubbe, I will do everything I can (and as I reported above, already have) to keep English nationalism out of English folk music.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM

Linking those things to nationalism eventually KILLS them.

Ain't that the truth.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:15 AM

MC has adopted (and adapted) many of of the technics and quirks of 'American' genres, including rock and blues, dear boy. If I am not mistaken, he usually doesn't SING American songs, because when he does they don't carry the same conviction as English ones. He has on ocassion recorded some, though! He also doesn't have any problems with taking songs from elsewhere and anglicising them! Even performed Australian and NZ songs! Add to that the Basque and Breton tunes he uses for ballads and songs!

Wav, not everyone wants to be a nationalist. You can be patriotic and proud of your nation without being a nationalist of the kind you are suggesting, what's more, you propose to CREATE new English national culture, so if you can, why can't others?
Linking those things to nationalism eventually KILLS them.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:54 AM

Howard was "rolling on the floor pissing himself laughing" at the thought of yourt "intensive" 4 year folk education of radio and BBC television programmes.

I doubt Martin Carthy ever spares a thought for you, Wavey. And certainly his point that "the only damage you can do to a folk song is not to sing it", as well as his involvement with projects such as Imagined Village, would indicate that his views are very much at odds with yours.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:39 AM

IB - I'm an English repat, who hasn't sung "Waltzing Matilda" or "I love to have a beer with Duncan" for years...I'd rather have a mead with you, mate!
It's pretty much as Howard said, although I, in turn, am baffled by his "ROFPML!"?
The "perform-your-own-national-culture", or "they show us theirs/we show them ours", way of English folk-clubs of olde, Don, was a good'n, that should be brought back in England and beyond...how's that?...does it lift YOUR forks? (And, having read further comments here, I think you all did get my somewhat off-beat drift, anyway.)

"I posted the Peggy Seeger piece at 12.34 p.m. on 3 October. Only a few miles above. My comment was:

This "policy", decided by the members of one club for that venue alone was to encourage performers to draw material firstly from their own background and experience and to sing it in their own voices in a language or dialect that they understood and used.

Martin Carthy (among others) has acknowledged the value and importance of this policy (whether instigated by Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger or A N Other) at that time because it encouraged the exploration of indigenous English music rather than tedious copying of the repertoires of the then prominent US artists.

Has WAV read it? What do you think?" (Diane)...whatever Martin may think of me, I agree with him entirely on this, and many other things he has been brave enough to say on the BBC.

And, Woody, what to do about it FROM NOW ON - re-education on many levels; the linking of English folk to English nationalism (as many Scots have unashamedly linked Scottish folk to Scottish nationalism); etc.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

Late reply to Ralphie to your message of 1st Oct 7.57am in which you ask:

Does any of this really matter?

Not really...does anything that you can't control? I just meant to assert that if there was going to be such a thing as a National Instrument - why not the concertina? It's more appropriate than say - a thumb piano for instance?

If you mean should I lose any sleep over it, then - no....but yes - I think it matters some....it depends how deep you want to go with it...:-)

I'm glad you agree with me however...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:42 PM

Thanks, Diane, for posting that in the first place. I found the article quite enlightening, and I thought it cleared up a lot of the muddle. I also thought that it gave a good object lesson in how a basically good idea gets taken up by self-appointed "folk police" who haven't grasped the reasons for and limitations of the idea, and try to impose it in all cases and on all occasions.

May the gods preserve us from shallow-thinking fanatics!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM

As this thread is not going anywhere I thought I'd take the chance to explore WAVs beliefs instead.

WAV - as I asked before, but did not receive an answer, I'm asking again for some clarification if you can spare the time.

(1) - what you're saying is that in England we should only perform "good English music"?

(2) - If the answer to (1) is yes, does that mean that you think we should take some kind of action to preserve the purity of the English music that exists - as alluded to in your perform your own rule?

(3) - If the answer to both 1 & 2 is yes, what methods would you propose would be used to achieve and enforce this?

(4) - Given your documented attempts to live a more "authentic" English existence (pottage etc) do you think that there should be a wider effort to revive this English culture?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM

I posted the Peggy Seeger piece at 12.34 p.m. on 3 October. Only a few miles above. My comment was:

This "policy", decided by the members of one club for that venue alone was to encourage performers to draw material firstly from their own background and experience and to sing it in their own voices in a language or dialect that they understood and used.

Martin Carthy (among others) has acknowledged the value and importance of this policy (whether instigated by Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger or A N Other) at that time because it encouraged the exploration of indigenous English music rather than tedious copying of the repertoires of the then prominent US artists.

Has WAV read it? What do you think?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

This draconian restricting of what people should be allowed to sing (!!) that seems to be David's hobby horse has been discussed many times before. I would suggest that David read a bit in previous threads, for example HERE, and try to bring himself up to speed.

Someone posted an article previously on one of these threads in which Peggy Seeger gives some background on the "sing from your own culture only" controversy. Rather that try to hunt down the previous posting, I'll link to the article HERE.

If you haven't already read the article, David, I suggest you read it now. If you have already read it, I'd suggest that you read it again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM

Maybe he's a bit confused, and it was actually anthropomorphism he studied.

Does the forklift talk to you, Waveydavey?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:33 PM

From the evidence, I'd be surprised if he knew what it meant, Don. This is definitely a one-man ride on an imaginary forklift truck.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

The Phonofiddle

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:11 PM

For someone who claims to have studied anthropology, he has a damned poor grasp of the subject.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

The perform your own national culture/they show us theirs; we show them ours way of English folk clubs of old, Don, was a good one, that should be brought back in England and beyond

Grammatical eccentricity notwithstanding, just how on earth do you envisage this perform-your-own policy being implemented? And if you, as a naturalised Australian with as much understanding of English culture as I have of ancient Egyptian mathematical theorems feels himself somehow justified in performing E. Trads, then how on earth can you possibly object to anyone singing anything?

I stuck my neck a while back in the face of the various levels of flack you were getting, but as Stu points out, I was sorely mistaken with respect to your quiet dignity. Overweening arrogance in a set of bizarre beliefs sums it up perfectly.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM

I suspect that WAV was attempting to refer to Ewan McColl's policy of allowing people to sing only songs from their own culture - he has referred to this on other occasions in support of his case. However, as has been pointed out to him, the reasons for that policy were quite different (to encourage people to investigate their own traditions at a time when most were attempting to reproduce American material), was limited to only a few clubs, and was fairly soon abandoned.

These days most of us are fully aware of our own tradition, rather more than WAV appears to be in fact, but do not agree that we should exclude other material. A good song is worth singing, wherever it is from.

"I've probably watched just about every BBC TV folk-music broadcast since 2004, I've read quite a lot (including forum posts), and listened to a lot of folk radio, as well as attending many singarounds, and a few festivals and instrumental sessions - so I standby the idea of an "intense" 4 and a half years into folk"

ROFPML!