England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

and the post previosu to that was me!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Chris P.
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:00 AM

Sorry, that was me.
Chris.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

Walkaboutsverse, Sounds to me that what you are wanting is some sort of Soviet Russian precisely defined view of cultural/folkloric national identity then? You don't sound very Left-wing to me.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:53 AM

For a start, the left vs right thing is a complete over simplification of the world. There are so many different types of cultural groups, national identity plays a part but is not a definitive factor in what makes a culture and what divides different cultures. A 'culture' can consist of anything that draws a group of people together, whether it be a spiritual belief, a type of music, a career, a drug, sex, political leaning, anything that plays a significant part in people's lives.

In the past, geographical boundaries were more significant in the impact on cultural groups, but this does not mean that cultural influence stopped dead at international borders.

With regard to the topic, it is interesting to discuss which instruments are linked with which nations, but I believe that no single instrument could represent the English nation and its rich and varied past (and present!)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:22 AM

"riiight", Joe? - I think I'm Left-wing, and that questioning economic-immigration/emigration (as a growing number in England, e.g., are doing) plus loving the world being multicultural, is actually a Left- NOT Right-wing attitude/policy.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:07 AM

'culture is NOT defined by national identity.'

You got that right. Anyway, is English music pictish, Saxon, regency rural, romantic Victorian? That way lies dead ends or propaganda.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:57 AM

riiiight ... Walkaboutsverse, your perception of cultures is somewhat odd to say the least. I totally agree that we should keep in touch with our local roots, but not to the point where cultural overlap should be limited to observation! there are no geographical cultural boundaries and culture is NOT defined by national identity.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM

"Why...?" Chris P. - because, as I've said, whilst nationalism with conquest IS bad, nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via the UN) is good for humanity...when people lose their own culture, society suffers, etc.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Chris P.
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

OMG, what an exasperating and pointless discussion. Why should we want to represent several centuries of our varied and eclectic musical traditions by a single instrument, which, for some reason I cannot fathom, has to have been invented in situ? Most kids who start to play an instrument now buy a guitar. 70 years ago it may have been the harmonica, 200yrs ago it was undoubtedly the fiddle, and 400yrs ago probably the Jews Harp. All these were international phenomena, covering Ireland and Scotland too. Why do we have to draw national boundaries round them? And why do we assume that English fiddle music was somehow less competent, varied and interesting than anyone else's? There are vanishingly few recordings of English fiddle music upon which to base that presumption.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:20 AM

We agree!, here, Charlotte and, from above -

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

"I like the idea of the lute having evolved in different lands into different guitar-like instruments - the Portuguese guitar (nearly always used to accompany fado songs), the Mexican guitar (with 9 strings, I think), the balalaika of Russia, the English cittern, the mandolin of Italy, the bouzouki (which we saw in the Athens Olympics), etc...
And, as suggested above, I also like the idea of their being many a fiddle-like instrument in many different lands...but, then, I do love our world being multicultural."

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM

kytrad, on the wikipedia page for the lute it' states the the instrument is of European origin and that:

'The European lute and the Near-Eastern oud both descend from a common ancestor, with diverging evolutionary paths'

-sourced from Wikipedia

Some Further Lute History

From what I've seen so far, the lute definitely isn't English

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM

Just recently, Kytrad, on BBC4 there was a series on our sacred music, and when a lament by Byrd for his teacher/dear friend Tallis was performed it was, indeed, accompanied by a lute - beautifully.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

I'm not a musical history expert. But, growing up in the sheltered mountains of Kentucky, we always thought of the lute as a very English instrument- you know, sort of proper, quiet and well-mannered. Could this feeling have been handed down in our memories,from back when we were English? (and Scottish, and Irish?)...I like that idea!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM

Styles had been brought-up, Chorlotte, and it seems to me the same as above could be said for Scotland and Ireland - with the variation coming from tempo and rhythm (as well as choice of instrument!): Jigs more in Ireland, reels more in England, strasthspeys more in Scotland, yes?...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:39 PM

You're point being what? I mean apart from a blatant ad (yet again) for your website. No I didn't bother reading. I believe the topic is the instrument, not the songs themselves.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM

From here, again: for centuries, English folk-music has been the repetition of relatively-simple topline melodies, for dancing &/or telling, yes?...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

Harmonium: are you sure there is a Scottish fiddle style, and an Irish fiddle style, but no English fiddle style(pre Swarbrick)? I suggest you have a listen to various traditional fiddle recordings. You will find there are many traditional styles in Scotland, many in Ireland, and many in England. You can't of course say how many distinct styles there are, as they merge into each other. SE Scotland merges into NE England and so on. But there certainly isn't(or wasn't) one style in Scotland that lasts from Lerwick to Berwick, and one in England, which miraculously changes at the border and lasts all the way down to Dover. Folk music doesn't work like that, though radio and arts funding are trying to make it happen!"
You notice I have left Wales off the list. To the best of my knowledge there are, surprisingly, no recordings of Welsh traditional fiddling.There are many theories why this should be!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM

Hi Sedayne. Sorry about the ill-health. I'd just about got over some odd virus or something myself, so my voice just about lasted the night. See you next time - and bring that Troll Pipe along!
Cheers. John Kelly.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM

Hi John - Thanks for the kind words. BTW we were really looking forward to your Fleetwood gig the other week, but ill-health got in the way rather; great reports though, so hope to catch you next time!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:03 AM

Sedayne: just had a listen to the Troll Pipe. Sounds great -better than I'd expected!
For anyone who hasn't come across the Humstrum, I'll try and describe it: It is carved from a piece of wood - the one I saw was, I think (it's decades ago), about 20" long - into a sort of broad bat shape. The narrow end was carved into a violin-type head, with four pegs. The neck continued down to the broad end, which was scooped out into a shallow convex shape, with a squared-off end. This end had a recess across it, which held the cocoa tin, at right- angles to the strings. The strings went over the tin, and were held by nails to the end of the instrument, the sting tension giving the necessary downward pressure to hold the tin in place. The tin acted as both bridge and resonator. The strings were obviously on a flat plane, so that when played with a bow, all strings sounded together. I don't know what the tuning is, or even if it's standard, but presume it would be a tonic/dominant drone, with either single or double melody stings. I think it's the nearest thing to an 'English fiddle'. The fiddle as we knw it -i.e. the violin - is not of English origin, and is very widely played as a traditional instrument. I think you could really only describe it as a traditional English instrument in terms of playing style, and I'm not convinced that there was a distinctive English style pre-Swarbrick, although I'm sure somebody will shoot me down in flames! Ireland and Scotland do have distinct styles, and so the fiddle is recognised as a traditional instrument in those societies. In Shetland, there is a tradition of fiddling which pre-dates the violin; it goes back to the Norse origins of that society, and their earlier fiddle was some form of 3-stringed (I think) nordic instrument. This was gradually superceded by the violin after Shetland became annexed to Scotland. But as there is an unbroken tradition of fiddling, there is still a distinct Shetland style. Gawd, I'm waffling 'ere.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:01 AM

...that rings a bell! :-)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

Yes - we've already established that! Doesn't anyone bother to read these bloody things through first?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

Sorry, forgot to include the link, here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_instruments

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

According to Wikipedia, the national instrument of England is the Bell !!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

I made a similar thing a couple of years back from a length of copper pipe, a mouthpiece of a Generation Bb whistle, a length of guitar string (A?), a small Egyptian tambourine (riq), a bell, and a cockleshell. You blow the whistle as an overtone flute and bow the string for a drone. Sounds pretty cool actually.

Read all about it at: Troll Pipe

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:19 AM

Well the Humstrum sounds right for our National Instrument,cobbled together from a bit of wood, a cocoa tin,some fiddle pegs and some bits of wire. Sums up the current situation rather nicely.
Al

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:09 AM

I reckon it has to be bells, because change-ringing is so uniquely English. And it is a tradition of the common folk, unspoilt by commercialism.

And just a wild hunch, unsuppoorted by any evidence - with bells rung in almost every town and village in the land I reckon there may be more bell-ringers than guitarists, box players and sundry assorted folkies combined.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:54 PM

Guest Jon, what Wheatstone invented was the fingering system, the arrangement of the instrument. As I understand it.
The small metal reeds came from China.

OKish but there still may be other questions like the reed plates in Wheatsones innovations??? As far as I know, good concertinas have a way different to harmonicas and accordions/melodeons.

Ti's late at night but a google has found me

this

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:45 PM

Herga Kitty: the Chineses sheng has reeds which work in both directions.
Re: the argument about the origins of 'fiddle'; I read somewhere years ago that it derives from the Latin 'fidicula', which was an ancient Roman stinged instrument, but not bowed. Bowed instruments seem to have originated in (if memory serves) about the ninth century. There are variants on the name fiddle - fidel, fythele, vielle, etc., and from these we get viola, vihuela, viol, violin, violone, blah, blah, blah....
Going back to the original question, the English Guitar has been mentioned more than once; WV refers to it as 'English Cittern'. It was a new type of cittern which had a short period of popularity in the 18thC, and is supposed to have survivved in the form of the 'Portuguese Guitar', which has also been mentioned. A further variant is the German Waldzither, which is virtually an English Guitar minus the fifth course. The cittern now being used in folk music is, I think, an English development. Maybe somebody can confirm.... These, however were not the first new variants on the cittern to have been invented in England. The Orpharion, invented by John Rose in the late 16thC, was a cittern tuned like a lute, to give lutenists the chance to get in on the wire-strung sound without having to learn a new instrument.
And nobody has mentioned the Humstrum. I've never heard one played, and have only seen one, in a museum in Dorset, I think. It's a true 'folk' instrument, being cobbled together from a bit of wood, a cocoa tin, some fiddle pegs and some bits if wire. It can be strummed or bowed - hence the name.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:58 PM

I'm not an expert, but...

I've seen the 'mouth-organ' invented by Wheatstone. It is a box blown from a central hole, with buttons on the sides, arranged like the English, about one octave.

Guest Jon, what Wheatstone invented was the fingering system, the arrangement of the instrument. As I understand it.
The small metal reeds came from China.

Dave Polshaw, my ex-Sally-Army Lachenal isn't black. It has been re-bellowed in black, but has brown-stained varnished ends. Still in the original case marked 'Salvationist Publishing & Supplies Ltd, Musical Instrument Department.' At least, I think the box and the box go together.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:33 PM

Thanks Mike not meaning to pick you up on an error,my question came out of pure interest. when I played with Rosbif there were very few concertina players over there. A few turning up now Jean Megly being one of them on his duet.
Apart from the Piano Accordion they have some truly wonderful melodion players
Al

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:28 PM

Seconded, Ol' Smokey - in theory anyway, I had nowt but bother with mine & way too noisy for studio work, but times I've stood in awe watching Micky Jones using a Copycat to ascend into the heavens... Pure and perfect joy!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

I nominate the Watkins Copycat. Thoroughbred English, and invented by an eccentric genius, namely Charlie Watkins.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:25 PM

Since the v in German is pronounced f, might it not imply that 'fiddle' originated in Germany?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM

- must have been a promoted by redezvous of entrpenuers in a cul de sac. deja vu?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:35 PM

Blimey - I just heard the present French Eurovision entry has caused a political stir for singing in English!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

But from whither the current crop of accordion buskers ubiquitous throughout the North of England? Whole families of them in Newcastle, also in Liverpool in duos with trumpets & clarinets; and damn fine they are too... Even a couple in Cleveleys!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:20 PM

Alan Day..well spotted..I apologise for putting concertinas for what should obviously have been piano accordians......
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:12 PM

My understanding is that the piano-accordion is the French version of the squeeze box...hence, when we get travel programmes, ads, etc. on France it's nearly always used for background music.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

Georgian Silver ,I would be interested to know the link between Concertinas and France.First time I have heard it.
Al

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:56 AM

No, Tim - just the brass family in general...I had a look in Wiki., etc., and the serpent was invented by a Frenchman in the 16th century, to be used by military and church orchestras.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: RTim
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

Has anyone mentioned - The Serpent?
An essential part of West Galley Music.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

cross posted with Jonny Sunshine. didn't the Germans class England as without music (Bach/Handl era?) but as the land of bells (or something similar)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:13 AM

Got to be a full set (170+ bells) of Whitechapel hand bells - only trouble is it takes 10 people to play it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

I never realised England actually had an Official Musical Instrument, I can't say that a bell seems as emblematic of England as a harp is of Ireland. Then again, Ireland is apparently unique in having a musical instrument as a recognised national symbol (as opposed to having a nominal "national instrument" for the sake of having one)

Personally I think the concertina's the best candidate as folk instruments go, but given that folk music is a minority interest in England I don't think it's a symbol many would relate to.

You want something that reflects England's industrial and manufacturing innovation- "made in England"- that is part of a living musical culture shared by many, something that has shaped the sound of music in England and beyond, something so iconic that people hire non-working versions purely for visual effect...


THE MARSHALL STACK!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: glueman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:04 AM

Another fan of church bells, the BBC has Bells on Sunday at 00.45 if any one is still up. Nodding off to a peal from some secluded Norman tower is the perfect end to a day. Strange how different the bells sound in say, the Christianised Balkans, where the notes are often flat.
Not folk though.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM

The point is, the Welsh, Scots and Irish do have National Instruments, with quite clear cultural & folkloric connections, whereas in England there is no obvious equivalent.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM

Why would anyone suppose there would be a uniquely "English" instrument, as opposed to a Scottish or Irish or Welsh one? Those national borders were laid down by bunches of Normans fighting each other basically.(Wallaces, Bruces and Stewarts north of the border v Planataganets south, for example). Musicians happily got on with music, irrespective of who briefly occupied the Big House.A Roman Wall can occasionally stop a large army of Picts and Scots. But it will always be porous to an itinerant harper who pootles into the fort from one side, earns a couple of denarii singing in the canteen in the evening, and departs the following morning on the other side. Having left a little music, and picked up a litle more.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:44 AM

Doesn't surprise me any; change ringing being a uniquely English music, however so widespread in modern times, although perhaps to many it isn't music at all, much less folk music. In any case I love the sound of the bells myself & have a personal archive of many hours of field recordings which, given the extended durations, provide the perfect accompaniment to most indoor domestic activities. How I miss the plaintive minor-third of the Evensong Bells mournfully knelling the faithful to prayer at Durham Cathedral; or the full glories of the changes which were usually just kicking off on a Thursday night when we were parking up on Palace Green for the Durham City Folk Cub sing at The Shakespeare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_ringing

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:51 AM

Thanks - 'tis an interesting/tad controversial read; also, for what it's worth, I've just added BELLS, brass, pipe and tabor, and stylophone to "INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND" (as above or here).