England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

Just for the record, the Jew's Harp is a class of idiophonic Linguaphone, rather than a free reed instrument, which are in any case aerophones rather than idiophones. On certain Jew's Harps (the Indian heteroglottal moorsing for example, and certain of the dan moi type idioglots) it is possible to resonate the tongue by means of the breath alone, generally on the suck, but all this gives you is one sustained tone.

Other Linguaphones are the thumb-piano (mbira, sansa, kalimba etc.) and the Fender Rhodes.

Anhow, here's the Wikipedia list of National Instruments, which makes for a fascinating read, and enlightens us as to what England's National Musical Instrument actually is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_instrument

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

I like the idea of the lute having evolved in different lands into different guitar-like instruments - the Portuguese guitar (nearly always used to accompany fado songs), the Mexican guitar (with 9 strings, I think), the balalaika of Russia, the English cittern, the mandolin of Italy, the bouzouki (which we saw in the Athens Olympics), etc...
And, as suggested above, I also like the idea of their being many a fiddle-like instrument in many different lands...but, then, I do love our world being multicultural.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:12 AM

The guitar may be widespread as a folk instrument but there's absolutely nothing distinctively English about it. I resisted suggesting the fiddle (violin) for similar reasons - it's too international - not only all over Ireland and Scotland (which aren't England...) but with strong North and East European representation too.

BTW, humble apologies for spreading misinformation about cor anglais. I never thought of checking on the fake French.

Anahata

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:54 AM

In my earlier thread I suggested >>>>>>>>>If you want to think about instruments most closely associated with England....what about the word 'Brass'<<<<<<<<<< and a few took me up on it. If you are looking for a 'current' instrument as Englands National instrument then 'brass' has to be in the answer. If you want something historical that is typically British there is something of a small choice. Concertinas and melodeons are much more 'French' than English I believe. If we are seeking a 'Folk' instrument then I guess we have to go with guitar in spite of its origins....it is the most used in Folk music.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:19 AM

Out of interest the Sally Army concertinas wer all black - Bellows and ends. The Anlo ones played alongside the brass bands were also Eflat/Bflat.

D.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:40 AM

Woody Guthrie called the harmonica a ' French harp '

eric

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM

See my 15 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM post, Mr Red...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:26 AM

The guitar is so popular internationally that it is difficult to call it some country`s national instrument at all (maybe with the exception of Spain).

And the mobile phone is not a musical instrument, but an instrument of torture.

So concertina seems a good choice.

Regards
Ernest (who is neither Anglo nor Saxon btw)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:10 AM

Mobile Phone? sort of international though they only have cell phones in North Amreica.
Mine plays Horses Brawle (in the key of GG) and La Morresque (in baldricks)
Clever, what?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,guy wolff
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:16 PM

Just to add to the list the Viol known in Italy and France as Viola de Gamba was a very very popular instrument in England and the works of Gibbons Tallis and Bird show how strong a hold this instument had on the English ear .It was still being talked about by the likes of Thomas Hardy.. The luthiers of England were famous for the best instruments of the time. All the best . Guy wolff

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:43 PM

...and the concertina really does have a beautiful timbre, Alan.
To Jon - that sounds a lot like the dreaded G-word: globalisation!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

I agree with Diane regarding the concertina.It was lightweight portable and cheap compared with brass instruments in the mid 1850s. It was taken up by The Salvation Army and Concertina Bands became very popular playing a yearly competition at Bell Vue Manchester and Crystal Palace. it's popularity continued to The Music Halls,it became a popular instrument to take to sea,but I doubt if the salt water did the reeds any good. The Concertina is regaining it's early popularity and Workshops are pulling in large crowds.
My vote as always the Concertina.
Al

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:15 PM

Depends on how you wish to define things, obviously, but in terms of number of players, amount of music listened too etc...

The guitar would be the national instrument of a number of countries by that method.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:04 PM

1) It is known as both. The term "blues harp" is the older.
2) The reason (aparently) for gob-iron (the preferred term - by me anyway!) dipping was to make the wood swell and stop splinters going into your lips. It also made sure that there were no air leaks. Not to be recommended for the D/G box!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVers
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:03 PM

How about "English cittern 1," Ed - help kick-start the greatest muscical comeback since the recorder!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:00 PM

"people are comparing apples and oranges here"

seems I read this somewhere else when people were in disagreement.


the source of the said instrument is being discussed here, and free reed intruments do not begin and end with the English concertina. Once more, for some reason, the film A Canterbury Tale comes to mind.

'I for one am curious to know which parts of the whole machine were his inventions"

Same here, after all isn't that part of what folk music is all about, sources?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:58 PM

It's the Guitar surely???

Depends on how you wish to define things, obviously, but in terms of number of players, amount of music listened too etc...

Guitar 1 Rest 0

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:53 PM

Who was first to invent a reed instrument that plays the same note in both directions of air travel?

I don't know but it does appear the accordion came before the concertina.

Only one was an ENGLISH Concertina, people are comparing apples and oranges here.

Not really, all free reeded and mostly bellows blown. I don't think anyone here disputes that Wheatstone invented a distinctive enough instrument to be called the English Concertina but I for one am curious to know which parts of the whole machine were his inventions.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:47 PM

I think we refer to the harmonica as just a harp, not a blues harp, even though it is an instrument most associated with blues, or the hands free Guthrie, Dylan, etc. style.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:46 PM

Only one was an ENGLISH Concertina, people are comparing apples and oranges here.
Or are we saying that all music ever written belongs to the person who invented the musical scale on which they are based?
After all, you only need to change about every fourth note of a song, to copyright it in your own name as a new composition.
Anyway once again a thread has been side tracked, another thread should be started to discuss the merits and demerits of concertinas.

G

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM

Who was first to invent a reed instrument that plays the same note in both directions of air travel?

Kitty

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:43 PM

Some Americans refer to the harmonica as the blues harp...and, apparently, some early players would dip it in their grog - I've seen Neil Young dipping one in some liquid? just before fitting it to his hands-free frame, to also play a guitar or organ or piano. For some unknown reason, I find dipping my ABS plastic tenor-recorder/English flute in water helps reduce the chances of clogging.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM

that article seems to be mainly about the accordian, with, I might add, some unverified claims (ie no sources cited). it does however state, which I have seen cited elsewhere, that

The concertina, patented in two forms (perhaps independently): one by Carl Friedrich Uhlig, 1834 and the other by Sir Charles Wheatstone, of which examples were built after 1829, but no patent taken out until 1844.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:28 PM

Maybe the Accordion page on Wikipedia will shed a little more light.

Whatever Wheatstone's base, his invention was not the first "squeezebox".

On the other hand, as far as I know, the EC fingering system is unique and invented by Weatstone. Then I suppose there are other bits, the way the reeds are set up in (at least most decent) concertinas? Even a small box?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:21 PM

So the jaw harp is the least elaborate of free reed instruments having just 1 tongue/reed, while harmonica,sheng etc. have bigger numbers and a more elaborate frame too...

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

I realise the difference, but all the sources I've checked seem to say the same thing about the Mundharmonika, either way the end result is the instrument I would personally nominate as England's National Instrument.

Actually all this talk about the English concertina makes me want to learn how to play...see some of these threads are quite benificial *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM

Charlotte - Not so much Jew's Harp tongues as free reeds; similar, but quite different! All searches for Mundharmonika come up with the instrument we variously know as harmonica, mouth-organ or moothie. If anyone can shed further light on this please do.

Walkaboutsverse - The Bosuns Whistle; a very different beast to the tabor pipe, being essentially a tiny globular vessel flute blown by means of the connecting pipe with the pitch regulated by opening & closing the hand.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM

The bo'sun's whistle is not similar to the pipe. I have a recreation of the whistle, and it is curved, almost like a french horn, and can really only be used to pipe warnings, as its tone is very shrill.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

'Mundharmonika is just a harmonica, right? Not sure what that's got to do with Jew's Harps'


That would be the use of the arrangement of various jew's harp tongues used in the Mundharmonika.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

Speaking of the navy, is the pipe used to pipe the captain or dignitaries aboard the same or similar to the tabor-pipe used for Morris, and mentioned above?..both are played with just the left hand, yes?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

Mundharmonika is just a harmonica, right? Not sure what that's got to do with Jew's Harps, although the Chinese have a lovely little instrument called to Kou-Xiang (or Ho-Ho) which consists of a fan of three to five tuned Jew's Harps. See HERE for details, sound clips & ordering info! Everyone should have one, though beardies beware of snags!

Certainly some cheap anglos I've seen demolished seem to be made up of harmonica reeds, but the English concertina is a different kettle of kippers altogether - even if it is based on 2,000 year old Chinese technology!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:49 PM

I would vote for concertina as the instrument I would associate most with England. Someone mentioned every soldier carrying a fiddle, but what instrument comes to mind when one thinks of the Royal Navy-concertina of course! I think fiddle, pipes (Northumbrian and Leicester, etc) and melodeon as well, but concertina would be it for me.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM

One things for sure - both Germany and England have been significant players in the design, development and (in the case of the recorder, e.g.) resurrection of instruments.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

I'm not going to argue with you...

here's another source for information regarding Wheatstone

Charles Wheatstone also considered the action of the 'Mundharmonika', a recently developed German mouth organ made of an arrangement of various jew's harp tongues. Undoubtedly, this early work presaged the invention of the symphonium and the concertina, in which the steel 'tongues', 'springs' or free reeds were to be set into motion, and sustained in such motion by the breath and by bellows respectively.

Sourced from Here

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:18 PM

It's called the ENGLISH concertina, and that's what it says he invented. The name sort of gives it away.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:14 PM

'The English concertina, invented by Charles Wheatstone."


In 1828, (Sir Charles)Wheatstone improved the German wind instrument, called the Mundharmonika, until it became the popular concertina, patented on June 19, 1829.

- sourced from Wikipedia

Sir Charles Wheatstone

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM

Would you like to be my secretary, DD?!...I could even give you (C) copy/paste rights!...and if you clog dance, well, we could go much further!! :-)
As for that list, given the words of wisdom here and a bit more thought, I do intend to add to it...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM

Anahata, that's a widespread myth about the English Horn's name. It would be plausible if anglé meant "angled" in French, but it doesn't and never has.

Another theory, by the way, is that because the cor anglais resembled the horns played by putti and other angels in renaissance art, the word was originally German "engellisches Horn", meaning "angelic horn." This is more plausible, because "engellisch" was also a fairly common alternative spelling for the adjective "englisch," "English."

Historically, the name "english horn" first turns up in German and Austrian scores...but written in Italian as corno inglese, which can't plausibly mean either "angled" or "angelic." So anyone who posits either a French or a German etymology has a built-in challenge.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

Belatedly, here's Walkaboutsverse's list from the link (not obvious when clicked):

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina,

Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-

boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern;

English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute

(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis:

I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: treewind
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

I wondered when somebody would come up with cor anglais.
The original name was cor anglé; this got corrupted to cor anglais and then innocently/ignorantly translated to English horn.

If you look at the mouthpiece end you'll soon see why it was anglé compared with its close relative the oboe which isn't.

Anahata

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:51 PM

The Sheng, of Chinese orchestras, with it's pipes, looks to me a lot more like a mouth/mini-organ than the harmonica.
A band of hand-held bell players (Peter Piper..!) made it onto the local news here in NE England, and they sounded great.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Treewind/anahata mentioned bells, good suggestion. On a slightly different tack, surely the bells must be the oldest instruments still in use? I used to live in Claughton in Lunesdale, and the bell in the tiny little church there was made in 1296. There may be older ones in England, but I haven't heard of one. That's an impressive age for an instrument in regular use. Maybe it should be the national instrument?
Actually, though, surely things like national instruments and national constitutions and national values are only for foreigners?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM

Fiddle is and anciently ubiquitous word with many derivations as can be proven, but to call an Erhu a Chinese Fiddle is to miss the point rather, though ethnomusicolists would no doubt call it a category of spike-fiddle, this is by way of taxonomy rather than naming per-se.

But then again, I've seen the Sanxian described as a Chinese Banjo, and, more absurdly, the Sheng as a Chinese Mouthorgan.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM

To Nerd - I agree, but the English horn and the rest of the oboe family have often been used by (Romantic) English composers, yes?
To Sedayne - yet another qualification: I play the piano-keys with two hands (I first played the computer keyboard using software called KB Piano, then transferred my "touch-typing technique"! to the piano keys). There are keyboard glockenspiels/celestas...but lap-top/for singarounds?...I wonder if anyone has ever hooked-up the Northumbrian bagpipe kit to a melodica...a strange harmonium, I guess..?!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

The English Horn, known in England as the Cor Anglais

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

The war drum.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM

How about the English Horn (which is neither English nor a horn)!

Fiddle is not really an exclusively English word. There's Fiedel in German and Fiddel in Danish, for example--as close as one could reasonably expect. All of these words are technically cognate with viol, violin being a diminutive form from Italian violino. I don't think it's farfetched to think of people in other languages calling the erhu an example of a Chinese viol, using whatever their cognate term might be.

I don't think the word fiddle turns up in old English, but "fiddler" does, with an "edh" in place of the double d: fi{edh}elere. The medieval Latin cognate of fiddle was vitula, and no one is sure whether the word was imported independently into all the Scandinavian and Germanic languages from medieval Latin, borrowed into several and spread to others from those, or whether there was an Old Teutonic original from which the Germanic forms derive. In any case, it is the same word with different consonant and vowel changes leading to its different pronunciations throughout Europe.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

Fair point; there is a miniature Indian harmonium with a hand pump that often comes up from time to time on ebay, though they tend to get bid up pretty fast. I did a gig recently with Martin Archer who was playing one - sounded beautiful.

Note the provenance here - that this is very much an Indian adaptation of an European instrument (see Harmonium thread elsewhere).

Otherwise, those cheap Chinese 8-bass accordions are good inexpensive slightly-out-of-tune fun; I've got one myself & I've even played it in public to accompany 'The Fox Jumps Over the Parsons Gate'. A bit loud for watching the telly though, unless you've got really sympathetic neighbours. That said, when I'm watching TV I often practise muted scales on my pocket trumpet...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

Hi John, I don't know I wouldn't be at all surprised.
What a resourceful family!
As a sideline to inventing the most wonderful instrument, Charles made great strides in developing the telegraph, the telephone and making electricity go faster.
Would we have had an internet by now without him?
With him in charge of Virgin Media instead of Mr Branson I'm sure my broadband would run like greased lightning.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,WalkaboutVerse
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

...but for accompaniment, Sedayne.
Speaking of harping - also saw the English Dital Harp at Morpeth?...