England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

"To We Subvert Koalas (and we still don't know why)"

The answer should be obvious. He is part of the cell that recruited Blinky Bill, possibly even his handler.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Fisk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:48 AM

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown)

Obviously on Planet Walkaboutsverse these instruments are equal in terms of cultural and historical significance. But if he'd bothered to do any research he'd find out that, as WSK says, the latter is a modern invention by Julian Goodacre, and a bloody good bagpipe it is too - see here. Please note, WAV - the Leicestershire is available as both in mouth blown AND bellows blown designs. The one I play is bellows blown, and is ideal for mostly European early and folk music, and even singing, though not many bagpipers sing with their instruments, even those of bellows blown instruments. Every English county once had its own bagpipe - for the Lyra-Viol there was given a bagpipe tuning and melodies alluding to the Lancashire Bagpipes, which are also mentioned in connection with the Preston Guild pageantry of the early 18th century, and as late as 1722 mention is made of a very merry wedding in Preston where there played seven bagpipers!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

One that I thought may have been noted in its absence (or perhaps it was way back - B.A.) is the harmonica/mouth organ - I have two mini encyclopedias and both say Wheatstone invented it, as well as the concertina; however, all the websites I've checked say Germany.
...and, like a koala after a good dose of eucalyptus, I, frankly, have been a tad slow to fathom that WSK may be ex-Insane Beard/ex-etc.?..

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM

I used to know a bloke called Tina.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM

Now I'm intrigued ... what was his name derived from - or was he just confused?

Mind you, there are other examples I suppose ... Shirley Crabtree (otherwise known as Big Daddy in wrestling circles in the 60s and 70s), Marion Morrison (John Wayne... am I right in that one??) ... and the conductor of the choir I sang with for many years is named Hilary ......

Ok, Ruth ... I stand to be corrected ... strangely Ralphie hasn't made any observation on the matter at all... I await some verbal castigation in trepidation, whilst trying to practice the tina (with both hands) in a fearless manner!!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

"I like the idea of the lute having evolved in different lands into different guitar-like instruments - the Portuguese guitar (nearly always used to accompany fado songs), the Mexican guitar (with 9 strings, I think), the balalaika of Russia, the English cittern, the mandolin of Italy, the bouzouki (which we saw in the Athens Olympics), etc...
And, as suggested above, I also like the idea of their being many a fiddle-like instrument in many different lands...but, then, I do love our world being multicultural."

Wav, the balalaika is derived from primitive stringed instruments of Central Asia, not from the lute. The bouzouki too.
Do your research.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM

"Wav, .....Do your research"
Therein lies our problem ?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

I don't think he was confused - he seemed quite certain that he wanted to wear frocks and sing country and western songs.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

Aha ... I see!!! :-)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

Sounds a bit like Tina C ... it isn't,I suppose?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

...while we are on names, Ruth Archer, I have a bone to pick: given that you've tolk us it's a nickname, why not just put Ruth R., e.g., such that the real Ruth Archers, found in search engines etc., have no chance of being bothered by some of the Rubish you come up with?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

R for Rubbish, i.e.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM

WAV.
I think you need to lie down and have a little nap.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Joseph P
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

Some of us don't google Ruth Archer in a stalker-esque manner, or do we? (da-de-da-de-da-de-daa- da-de-da-de-daaa-daaa....)

Rubbish with a capital R? Must be special, mind you when it comes to rubbish, what about the racist crap that you publish, and what about your constant blabbering on about what our good tradition is. You have NO IDEA what makes up the cultures that exist in the geographical area that is England, let alone what would make the 'situation' better.

For those of us (such as myself) who do take an active part in continuing an unbroken and evolving tradition, your views are nothing but damaging. Ruth, on the other hand, seems to be taking an active part in developing and promoting folk music in England.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM

It seems that the fictional Ruth Archer is rather more famous than our very own real one.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

WAV
When you have achieved what Ruth has achieved, then, start casting stones.
Are you the festival director for next years Sidmouth Festival?.... No, You're not.
So, shut up, and get a job.

Your biggest problem is that she might book some "foreign acts"
God Forfend such a heinous scenario....
The very thought that Englands Premier Festival might play host to those "Dusky Heathens"

Even if they are Scandinavian!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Derby Ram
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

I'm clearly a bit late with this thread - but surely The Concertina being the only English invented chromatic musical instrument - and I'm with Diane here - there is only one contender - and there are arguably more players now than there have ever been - it's popularity is definitely on the up. What more qualification are they looking for?

Nothing to debate as far as I'm concerned....:-)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:57 AM

Agreed Mr Ram.
But....does any of this really matter?
Ralphie

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

I play the English concertina because it suits me to do so. I enjoy making music with it. I admire the playing of those who are for more expert than me. I do NOT play it in order to enhance my feeling of national pride or express my patriotism.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

I like it that WAV is concerned that the "real" Ruth Archer might have her good character besmirched by being confused with me...Oooooh Noooooo!!!! But it sounds like WAV isn't actually aware that Ruth is a fictional character, and it's just possible that he doesn't even have a peripheral awareness of God's Own Radio Drama.

And he calls himself English!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM

And I dare say that radio drama is a far greater part of people's own good culture than morris dancing and tennis.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

Morris dancing AND tennis - at the same time? Sounds fab to me. Would they wear tennis kit or morris kit, do you think? A rapper outfit wouldn't even need rackets. Or should that be raquets?

Well...it's no dafter than anything else in this thread...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

Ooh yes, tennis-playing morris dancers. Lovely idea, are they holding stotties and mead in the other hand and is it by the shade of a willow tree?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

Sounds good to me - and they'll be wearing clogs.

Sorry - must dash - off to video myself playing through the chords of "The Glory Of Love", with the sound turned off. Just demonstrating the notes and fingering silently, you understand.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM

"Ooh yes, tennis-playing morris dancers"
Would that be 5000 of them ... are we back on track for the topic again ... no nay never......

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

"Just demonstrating the notes and fingering silently, you understand. "
Which instrument would that be on?? Concertina ? Recorder? Mongolian noseflute??

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:20 AM

Pink oboe?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Sousaphone?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:41 PM

To Ruth Archer and Joseph P!: let me put it another way - if one prefers to use a web nickname (and I've nothing against that) why use someone else's real name? One of the very few using a real name here is Don Firth, but I think that IS his...Don?
And the sousaphone is American, Volgadon.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

The Melon Whistle?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

And the recorder is of Continental origin, the cittern is German, the tabor possibly comes from North Africa via Spain, and the violin/fiddle is Italian.
The sousaphone and the tuba were widely used in trad jazz, which was very popular for many decades in Britain, and which your parents probably grew up listening to. It's probably as English as morris dancing.
To repeat-

Recorder- Continental Europe.
Cittern- German.
Fiddle- Italian.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM

"To Ruth Archer and Joseph P!: let me put it another way - if one prefers to use a web nickname (and I've nothing against that) why use someone else's real name?"

Just the same as if someone chose the nickname Jim Bergerac or Victor Meldrew.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

WAV, I'll repeat this slowly: Ruth Archer is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. If there are real Ruth Archers in the world, no doubt they've had their characters blackened far more comprehensively by the Ambridge Dairymaid herself and her adulterous meanderings with the cowman.

Anyweey, Deeeeeeyvid, I still think you're a reeeeeeeycist. OOOOOOOH NOOOOOO!!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

Correct, WAV.

The name on my birth certificate is Donald Richard Firth. My father's grandfather came from Scotland (actually, Orkney) and my mother's parents came from Sweden. I sign legal documents with my full name, but Don Firth is the name my friends and acquaintances know me by, the name I am known by as a singer, and the by-line I use for my writing.

I am willing to take the blame when and if I mess up, but when I do something dazzlingly brilliant, I want full credit. Therefore, I use my real name.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

"Anyweey, Deeeeeeyvid, I still think you're a reeeeeeeycist. OOOOOOOH NOOOOOO!!!" (Ruth Archer)...is the one behind this nickname, and the poster of such rubbish, really the director of Sidmouth Festival, as Ralphie said here Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM?
And Volgadon - I repeat, the sousaphone IS an American instrument, that I happen to like, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM

And Wav - I repeat, the fiddle IS an Italian instrument, that I happen to like, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

And so said I, Volgadon - you even argue when we agree! If it's on the list here Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM or here, I'll eat my English flute.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

The Sousaphone is a "wearable" helicon or "Saxhorn" (a brass instrument very popular in central and eastern Europe) originally patented in Paris in 1845 by Adolph Sax. John Philip Sousa asked the C. G. Conn company to design a helicon or tuba that would be easier to hold and to march with.

So it's an American variation of a European instrument. To categorize the Sousaphone as an "American instrument" is rather like categorizing Lord Randal or Barbara Allen as "American ballads" because variants of them have been collected in the southern mountains in the United States. Both of these ballads came to the U. S. because they were carried here in the heads of immigrants from the British Isles, where they originated—as far as we know; variants of Lord Randal have been found all over continental Europe and the Scandinavian countries.

No, most things that exist today, both cultural and technological, are the result of evolution, which involves the mixing of cultures and the resultant cross-fertilization. Biologists have long since recognized the value of biological diversity and "hybrid vitality." Anthropologists also recognize a similar process in the meeting and blending of cultures. "Pure" strains, both biological and cultural, tend to weaken and fade away.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM

Noooo, Deeeyvid - I'm a character in an everyday story of countryfolk - as any good Englishman (and especially Northumbrian)well knooooooows.

Anyweeey, there's only one poster of rubbish on this forum, Deeeeyvid - and it's not the Prudhoe Pixie.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM

In that case you are an idiot. The fiddle is VERY closely associated with England.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

". . . having enjoyed the guitar being played in an English style. . . ."   [from WAV's website]

WAV, I have been studying the guitar, its history and its various techniques, I have been playing the instrument since the early 1950s, and I have taught the guitar in both private lessons (classical and folk) and in classes (folk) since the late 1950s.   My life has been inextricably linked with the guitar all these years. I recognize that there are a few distinct regional styles of playing, such as flamenco in Andalusia, Mexican folk styles (making use of some flamenco techniques such as free use of the rasgueado), alternating bass or "finger-picking" styles that developed in the southern U. S. along with blues styles, and, of course, various jazz and pop styles. But I can't recall every hearing any style of guitar playing that I could identify as an "English style."

Can you direct me to any guitarists who play specifically "English style," or any CDs where I may hear this style?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

If someone were to say English style, I would immediately think of Davey Graham, Martin Carthy, Jansch and Renbourne and Nic Jones, who were all heavily influenced by American styles too.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM

Hmm. Having listened to a selection of the aforementioned on YouTube, I can't say that I hear anything beyond what sounds like each individual's variations on what are generally considered to be American folk guitar styles. Apparently heavily influenced, as you say, Volgandon.

"English style?" Hard to recognize anything that would distinctly characterize it as such.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,jm
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

I think you'll find a lot of people on this thread are more well known than you suspect David... You are well out of your depth here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music. And that's just the people I know...

Listen to us all - everyone here has more knowledge about this than you and they (mostly) being polite and patient in the face of your refusal to listen. As Eliza suggested, learn more - wikipedia and "a programme you saw once" are not accurate sources, just as "pottages and lawn tennis" doesn't count as participating in English culture. Your pronouncements are mostly hilarious if not for the fact that there's so much conviction behind them. Go out and get involved - not lecture, or decide how things should be done based on the fact you'd prefer the world to nice a neat and tidy, or decide you already know enough from a single summers travelling to last a lifetime - but FIND OUT MORE.

Jim (go on... Work out which Jim...)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

"here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music."

And some of them, of course, fit into more than one of those categories.

"go on... Work out which Jim"
Now I'm curious .... and speculating ... do any of us get a Mars bar if we get it right ... chuckle.

As to using real names or nicknames ... that's a matter of choice WAV, David or whatever you choose to be. Some of us, like Ralphie or Don choose to use their real names. Others like to use nicknames .. I only really use one because that's how I started on here some years ago ... but I think you'll find that over time most of us who are regulars have got to know who everybody else is in the real world, so even if we're posting under nickname/pseudonym/whatever you wish to call it, it isn't actually an anonymous posting as such. As to considering that Ruth could be maligning a REAL person, please don't tell me that you're one of those people who would have sent a wreath to the studios when one of the characters in the radio series died ... you wouldn't would you ????
(I personally am concerned in case any real Granma McAlatias are feeling maligned, or come to that any Koala Subverters....)

I see from your Myspace and website that you have been interested in traditional music since 2004(and I have to echo Ralphie in being surprised at the use of the term E Trad - never seen it used by anyone else ever before ... and hope never to see it again, as we already have too many problems in the use of definitions). Interest and enthusiasm are laudable, but with so little experience, and faced with a veritable army of people on here who know so much more than you, you really have been and are digging a very very large hole for yourself. As Jim said, you really should go and FIND OUT MORE before arguing the toss with people who in many cases have vast experience and knowledge at their fingertips.

And yes, just in case it wasn't clear to you one of the people you've been having a go at IS the newly appointed Artistic Director of the Sidmouth Folk Week. And most of us are well aware of that, whether she chooses to use her given name, or her Mudcat name...

Oh well, despite the hour back to practice on the duet,Monarch /King of the tinas ... possibly with both hands ... maybe just the left....definitely not in an English manner ... might confuse myself...

Surreysinger
(aka Irene Shettle who is hopefully not maligning any other Surreysingers ...)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM

Maybe Wav would have included the banjo on his list if it were known as the English banjo, or the Anjo.


Volgadon, who may or may not be maligning two rivers, as well as anyone called Don.....

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

You are well out of your depth here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music.

You'd think they had better things to do with their time than argue the toss with WAV.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Hmm ... I thought that was a mix of VOLtarol and MoGADON ... a painkiller that puts you to sleep ... is that relevant to this thread ?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Snail, the only reason I do is because of the racism, which he hitches wholesale to the cart of English traditions, before peddling his wares to anyone who will take them (or be too polite to say no...)

it's important that people who see his bizarre polemics posted here, there and everywhere know that they do NOT represent the views of the majority of the English folk fraternity.

I'm not English, of course.

Anyway, everyone takes coffee breaks! :)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:57 AM

If it's the Jim I think it is, can I congratulate you on the Adam Ant song? It even won over my folk-averse partner... Now there's a man who was an English institution! (Adam, not Mrs Cringe).

Ridicule is nothing to be scared of... probably quite pertinent to this thread.