Eliza Carthy in the Guardian

Subject: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:47 AM

Eliza Carthy in the Guardian

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:52 AM

thank you! I spent ages yesterday looking for this!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

It was actually in the Observer last Sunday 13th.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM

I meant looking for it on-line. i knew it was in the Observer, but couldn't find it in the on-line edition despite various searches.

Anyway, fab piece. Next time I see her I shall definitely give her a hug, and not a Chinese burn.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

Oh, there's no point in looking for anything online from the Sundays for a couple of days. They can't get the staff, y'know.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Willa
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

Thanks, Nigel, and congratulations to Eliza on a very spiried article.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:23 AM

I love the idea of a ceilidh in that big barn of an Albert Hall. They won't have to move the seats or chairs out of the way.
Who is the caller?
Mary

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

I think it's an Irish ceilidh...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

Sarah Pavey (of this parish).

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:29 AM

the programme says it's the London Lasses and Pete Quinn.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:31 AM

Pete Quinn plays keyboards in the band.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

Surely that was Garth Hudson

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:54 AM

"The Proms are supposed to be about the people's music, and for once it doesn't feel like the people are being handed a pompous, Royal-approval-stamped thing some arts director thinks they should like or some patronising, low-brow housewives' choice that everyone knows in their heart of hearts is a bit desperate. In fact, the BBC Proms have finally done what they are meant to and provided every one of us with a rare opportunity to be involved in something genuinely lovable and enriching. That's better. Flag please!" [QUOTH ELIZA]

I don't know what she's talking about in this last paragraph, and, more to the point, neither does she. "For once?" "Finally done?" "Every one of us a rare opportunity?" The Proms are one of the finest music festivals on the planet and this loadabollox is an insult. She sounds like one of those who think the Proms is the Last Night.   Go find your own barn, Eliza.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:42 AM

I wouldn't personally have chosen The London Lasses as the band for the ceilidh (though it's only a short one at the end). Not because they're not a good band, because they are (and Sarah Pavey is an excellent beginners' caller), but because they do Irish and this will serve to reinforce the public perception that trad dance music from Britain is only Irish and Scottish.

The concert, however, is brilliant. For Bellowhead and Bella Hardy to be showcased in such a high profile gig is a tremendous breakthrough for English music. It's music the public don't yet know they like. It's genuinely "people's music" and oh, the joy if they yell for more and more. And they will . . . why wouldn't they?

Of course the Proms is a world-renowned music festival. But this is an element that's been largely overlooked by them till now. Roger Wright didn't waste his time entirely at R3. Eliza's piece speaks for many (though clearly not all) of us. After this day in July I'm hoping she'll be speaking for several thousands more.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:53 AM

Bloody hell, for the first time ever there will actually be something presented as part of the proms that I actually want to see. I couldn't agree more with Eilza's last paragraph!

Paul

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:53 AM

hi Steve,
    Diane says it, really. That paragraph was edited, but pretty much says what I wrote. Although I am referring to the Last Night for the purpose of adding some levity to something I feel very strongly about, I am also talking about the opportunity for people not in the know about folk music for whatever reason to have a chance to see it at a national-level arts festival. This shouldn't be an odd occurrence, but it is. I do have my own barn, thanks...it's called the Albert Hall, and I want to see my country's traditional music there. Are you saying that the Folk Day is a bad idea or just that I'm an idiot you don't like? It's not clear from your post.
eliza

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

Well Beethoven string quartets have been largely overlooked by Sidmouth but I'm not complaining. The Proms are what they are and, to give the organisers in recent years some credit, they have been allowed to evolve. Ms Carthy's piece was unnecessarily patronising in that final paragraph and it reeked not a little of ignorance of what the Proms have evolved from and into.

And folk music--Albert Hall--hmm!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:59 AM

I take what I read at face value. I know no other way. I love folk music and I love the Proms. Your article is very worthy of you until that last bit.   It reads as though you're here with a mission to give the Proms a one-person shake-up. I hope it's on the telly so that I can cheer along. I spent three years right next to that barn doing my botany degree. It is a bloody barn too.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:04 PM

folk music--Albert Hall--hmm

For many, many years the EFDSS held an annual festival in the RAH.
Indeed a while ago they had an event called Return To Albert.
This day could indeed herald just that, in a highly relevant way.
Eliza . . . patronising? W-h-a-a-t??

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

"And folk music--Albert Hall--hmm!"

I'm afraid you're waving your own ignorance like a flag there, Steve. The Albert Hall has been playing host to folk music and dance for decades. the EFDSS used to hold an annual festival there. Waterson:Carthy and Show of Hands played there last year.

It's about time more of this country's national music and dance was represented at high-status cultural events. The "high art" bias in England has done the tradition enormous damage - maybe it's time we got to redress the balance.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:13 PM

Snap, Diane!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:13 PM

...and Bob Copper used to tell a good tale about the family's appearance at said barn.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

Come on, stop arguing and address that offending last paragraph! I mean, is this cobblers or what: "...and for once it doesn't feel like the people are being handed a pompous, Royal-approval-stamped thing some arts director thinks they should like..."

I listen to a very large proportion of what the Proms has to offer over its couple of months and no, it doesn't feel like that to me at all. It might feel like that if you don't like classical music of course, or if your appreciation is confined to the odd Beethoven symphony or Strauss waltz, which mine is not.    Like I said, I happen to like both genres being discussed here and I would appreciate being allowed to enjoy both without someone implying that in the one I'm merely being offered a load of outmoded old tosh. Anyway, if you need a harmonica player on the night I'm free.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM

Ruth, if something's worth saying it's worth saying twice!
And I'll be behind you in the queue to hug Eliza and save her from the Chinese burns.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM

And I like my folk music human-scale, more or less, but that's just me. ;-)

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Steve, I think what Eliza has said represents the feelings of people beyond the classical audience, and there are a LOT of those people. They see a huge proportion of government subsidy - their money - spent on a minority music which is largely still too expensive for ordinary people to experience live on a regular basis. Having done outreach work in an orchestral context, I can tell you it can cost something like 5 times as much even to deliver an education project than an equivalent project in other music genres. Classical is a largely inaccessible genre for many people, yet it still receives a disproportionate level of funding, and in my opinion, status. Why? Well, as Eliza sayts, many years ago the powers that be in the arts annd arts funding sectorsa decided that classical music (and opera, and dance) represented the "best" of human achievement, and it was "good for us" to have it in our society, and as a result it has been funded out of all proportion to its actual audiences. It's a "top-down" approach to arts subsidy.

Admittedly, a lot of people aren't folk enthusiasts, either. The big difference, for me, is that folk is this country's national music, but it doesn't achieve the status, airtime or funding that classical does. And as a result, it is much more a "bottom-up" approach to arts engagement - its music that comes from people, not just from orchestras and programmers and the insitutionalised arts infrastructure.

I completely agree with Eliza's final paragraph. For once, the Proms will be relevant to me.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:01 PM

Having read Ms Carthy's article I can't disagree with any of it. I just hope, though, that she won't be reduced to the status of 'compere-ess', as she was in the unfortunate 'Folk Britannia' debacle on the telly.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM

Yes indeed, a very spirited and well thought out article on Eliza Carthy's part

"I don't know what she's talking about in this last paragraph, and, more to the point, neither does she. "For once?" "Finally done?" "Every one of us a rare opportunity?" The Proms are one of the finest music festivals on the planet and this loadabollox is an insult. She sounds like one of those who think the Proms is the Last Night.   Go find your own barn, Eliza.


Ohhh she knows exactly what she's talking about, and I believe she knew, when writing it, that some people would get all bent out of shape about that last paragraph, with which, by the way, I fully agree, having attended, in my time, a few Proms concerts

It was much to my regret that I was unable to attend The Watersons/Waterson Carthy A Mighty River of Song. The Royal Albert Hall ws the perfect place for it.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:28 PM

Excellent, spirited article. Any article by Eliza C is always thought provoking. If I could only be there! Will they broadcast the event on the radio?

Yes! A new Eliza C album. I got Rough Music in 2005, must've listened to it dozens of times, but then spent two years in Russia. All that time I had been hoping that by the time I got back, she would have a new one, but oh well, I expect it'll be worth the wait!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM

'Yes! A new Eliza C album.'

Release date is 23rd Jun, I believe

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:56 PM

Which version of Folk Britannia is Shimrod talking about? The one in his/her head or the one that was actually broadcast on my TV?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:01 PM

'Folk Britannia' debacle on the telly'
Unfortunately the only pieces of this programme I've seen are those posted on You Tube, a bit of Fairport Convention/Sandy Denny and a bit of the segment on Davey Graham, but have read both pro and con articles on Folk Britannia. It seems to me that people either liked it or they disliked it, there was no middle ground.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:58 PM

For once, the Proms will be relevant to me.

For one day or so.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:07 PM

Well, it's more than ever before, Uncle Dave!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:10 PM

Jim Copper , his brother John and their respective sons Bob and Ron sang at the Royal Albert Hall in London in 1952, I believe. So much for "And folk music--Albert Hall--hmm!"

Though I once knew someone named Albert Hall, when you talked about folk music he'd always go Hmmm!

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:17 PM

Cheers for Eliza - though I wonder what Ralphie will make of her reference to Housewives' Choice!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM

"Jim Copper , his brother John and their respective sons Bob and Ron sang at the Royal Albert Hall in London in 1952, I believe. So much for "And folk music--Albert Hall--hmm!" "

err, yes - at an EFDSS festival. I think this point had already been made...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:21 PM

"and Bob Copper used to tell a good tale about the family's appearance at said barn."



errr the date wasn't mentioned...and I was asking a question, thank you for you prompt attention in this matter.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

I see no problem with the article, and the last paragraph, for those of you who feel the need to dissect word by word someone's opinion, is not at odds with the rest of the article. I know full well what Eliza means, and from what I understand about the Proms, she is right to be excited about a slight nudge in a different direction. I find nothing patronizing about it, in fact, I feel it is very much the truth.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

"Your article is very worthy of you until that last bit."

speaking of patronizing....

"It reads as though you're here with a mission to give the Proms a one-person shake-up"

Now that wouldn't be a bad idea at all, all things considered, and if anyone dare do it, Eliza Carthy is that person!

Go for it Eliza

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:36 PM

"I was asking a question,"

Oh - it looked like you were just copying and pasting information from the Copper Family website.

My mistake.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catchers unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:39 PM

yes indeed, your mistake. it was a legitimate question... I checked the website for the names. It may surprise you to know that The Coppers are known outside of the hallowed, parochial halls of Merrie Englande, and that I possess some of their recordings

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:49 PM

I still can't see a question - just an interjection that repeats what two of us had already made clear. Never mind.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

exactly...what is important is Eliza Carthy's article which is what the thread is all about...

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:58 PM

Yes, right, to all of you who assume that I didn't know that "folk" events have been put on before at the Albert Hall, well of course I did. Unlike in your cases though, my Aunt Sally wasn't there. My comment did not imply that particular nugget of ignorance on my part no matter how you care to read it. And there is a good deal of ignorance and anti-Prom bias coming out here.   Comments such as   "For once, the Proms will be relevant to me" simply reveal at best a lack of penchant for the huge variety of classical music on offer during the wonderful Proms season, and at worst a lack of motivation to at least find out about it and try something different. The Proms are extremely diverse and there is truly something for everyone. Decry them as stuffy and elitist and it's your severe loss.   We have a body of people here who aren't too keen on classical music who want the whole boiling to be shaken up. We'd be better off sorting out folk music's image problem first I reckon.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:03 PM

What I'd like, Steve, is for a substantial amount of the money and airtime currently given to classical music to be re-directed at folk. That would go some way to helping to sort out the "image problem", I reckon, much of which is the result of generations of under-resourcing.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:05 PM

I don't know what she's talking about in this last paragraph, and, more to the point, neither does she. "For once?" "Finally done?" "Every one of us a rare opportunity?" The Proms are one of the finest music festivals on the planet and this loadabollox is an insult. She sounds like one of those who think the Proms is the Last Night.   Go find your own barn,

I think I know exactly what she is talking about. It is the pompous, patronising presenters you all too often get on the broadcast proms, including the last night. Richard Baker used to make me cringe every time I saw him.

Well said Eliza

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:15 PM

You know, not everyone likes classical music, and they never are. Not everyone likes folk either, but it's something we have to live with. Now....bringing the two together, as The Proms is doing this year, can only benefit both genres.Classicos attending the ceilidh, and who knows, folkies attending one or two of the classical concerts. Only time will tell

Chalotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:23 PM

Well, Ruth, have you ever wondered why there is a Classic FM and not a Folk FM?? People don't want it, you see! Folk music, especially English, plays to its own in it own world way too much and most of the public still think it's fingers in ear, singing down the nose and blokes in funny clothes bashing sticks. Are you going to blame the Beeb for that or get them on some evangelical mission to tell the world how cool we all are?   We haven't done over-much to change the image have we, just moaned about how ignorant and prejudiced and unaware of their "roots" the public are. As for presenters, Tootler, might I suggest you tune in to a few Prom concerts this year apart from the Last Night. Every concert is broadcast on Radio 3 and a good few pop up on the telly too. You'll hear a whole variety of presenters and they have all ditched the stuffy old approach.   And there is a good audience! This thread is clearly suffering from "Last Night of the Proms is the Proms" syndrome and a good bit of knee-jerking in reaction to even the slightest criticism of one of our stars. And it wasn't even criticism of her music!