Eliza Carthy in the Guardian

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: folk_radio_uk
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:24 AM

A great article Eliza and as for the last paragraph, I loved it!

Great to see you getting a voice and using to make what is clearly a view shared by many as is clear in this thread.

Well done and I'm looking forward to your new album!

Alex

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:41 AM

Marje, this thread is a response to a topical newspaper article and the tangential discussion that has arisen from that is not about "the meaning of folk" (apart from the inane offshoot about Billy Bragg!) but about the public perception of it. Taking your comment to its logical conclusion, it probably isn't OK for anyone to give their views about anything folk-related simply because they think that the old, crusty debate about "what is folk," so oft rehashed in usually thin disguise, is utterly shagged out. I think I can say this, as an opinion, without disqualifying myself from commenting on other aspects of folk music, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM

So you go to the Proms a lot, eh, Alex?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

Hey, Steve! I just found this post from you on another thread - you know, the one about Eliza and Seth Lakeman being asked to write about their favourite songs in The Guardian:

"Why the hell were Carthy and Lakeman selected for this by the Guardian anyway! This calls for a letter to the editor. I can only surmise that someone thought that Englishness has something to do with bloody big egos. There, I've gorn and said it."

It's nice to know that your comments to/about Eliza on this thread were borne purely of your response to her Observer piece, and not because you've got a dirty great chip on your shoulder.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:06 AM

"It's nice to know that your comments to/about Eliza on this thread were borne purely of your response to her Observer piece, and not because you've got a dirty great chip on your shoulder."

Nice one, maybe that will stop him whinging on!

Didn't want to be petty on the thread hence PM.

Paul

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:25 AM

Note the "e" in "whingeing," in case you need it again.   I said many feet up the thread, Ruth Archer, that I reacted to the article taking it at face value. I maintain that the last paragraph was unwise and ill-informed. Up to that point in our proceedings the article had not been challenged in the thread in any way, and I thought there were at least some grounds to challenge that last paragraph. I have said more than once that the rest of the article is fine, it's good that our luminaries get space in the papers and that the folk Prom is a great idea. Your job, if you're interested, is to counteract my adverse view of the "offending" passage with argument.   It is not your job to imply that I can't be objective because of opinions I expressed in the past on a different topic. Frankly, and I think you know it, that is a cheap shot. You are posting on a public forum and I will thank you to not make insinuations about my integrity.   I've put a fair amount of effort into my posts in this thread, right or wrong, and I'll argue my corner as best I can. Might I suggest that you do the same.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:40 AM

Thank you for the spelling lesson. No doubt I will need the word again........

Paul

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:42 AM

"Your job, if you're interested, is to counteract my adverse view of the "offending" passage with argument."

My job is whatever I choose it to be. Who died and made you king? You, too, are posting on a public forum (where anyone who cares to can see that you have attacked Eliza, her perceived lack of talent and her ego on at least three different threads). Expect people to take all of what you say in context. Eliza herself clearly found your opening gambit aggressive and offensive: "Are you saying that the Folk Day is a bad idea or just that I'm an idiot you don't like? It's not clear from your post."

For what it's worth, Eliza plays for Goathland Plough Stots and Bampton Morris. She plays free of charge in charity concerts. She is about as generous with her time as someone in her position could realistically be expected to be, and this is because of her huge commitment to the tradition. I'm not sure how you define "bloody big egos", but I'd be intrigued to know.

In any case, I have already countered your argument with a number of considered postings, but as you acknowledge no opinion but your own, I think anyone reading can tell who really has the ego problem.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:53 AM

I haven't attacked your integrity and now you're just getting cross. You're just cherry-picking from the thread. Of course I listen to what people have to say. I have agreed with some points made by various contributors to this thread and not agreed with others. I have been coaxed into declaring my support for the article as a whole and for the Proms project, something I'm very happy to do and which I probably would not have had occasion to do had I not posted to this thread. I acknowledged that my opening post could have been better balanced. I told you that I've seen Eliza twice and you may recall a smiley, indicating pleasure, after the mention. Of course I've stuck my head above the parapet on previous occasions and I'm quite happy for you to bring that up. I have nothing to hide, believe me. What I'm not happy about that you're extrapolating that into a personal attack on my integrity. Desist please.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:59 AM

And I don't want to give you homework but my search talents are very poor. Perhaps you'd care to reference those three threads so that anyone who's in the faintest way interested (not many, I'll wager) can see exactly what I said for themselves. Unsupported quotes on forums are not the best idea. Oh dear, What am I letting myself in for.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: mattkeen
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:06 AM

No I don't think Ruth is getting cross, she is just countering your argument again.

In any case, argument and counter argument isn't everything.... in fact its mainly semantics wrapped in a conceit of logic, and its conclusions do not actually tell you/one what is right and what is wrong or what is true or false. Wisdom does that, and you Steve are displaying very little of it.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:08 AM

I think you're misinterpreting my post - I'm not at all angry. It's interesting, though, that you interpret having your own words repeated back to you as a "personal attack" that is out of line, while simultaneously feeling entitled to make quite public personal attacks on the personalities of artists that you clearly don't know.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it, as my mum used to say.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:18 AM

I just asked you to dish it out and you've yet to oblige. Actually, you've lowered the tone enough now so I'm going off to help the bloke who needs advice on his moothie-playing if it's all right with you. You could perhaps find something more useful to do as well. Perhaps help Matt with his semantics or whatever he was on about. Ta-ta.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:22 AM

"Actually, you've lowered the tone enough now"

LOL! I kind of think you did that with your first post - I don't think I referred to anyone else's opinions as "loadsabollox". But htere we go.

Ta-ra a bit...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:45 AM

Here you go Steve:


A snippet of your views on Eliza Carthy

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:52 AM

Here is another Steve.

detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2264175

Admittedly you have included Seth Lakeman in this attack as well.

Sorry Ruth you ought to be doing this but I couldn't resist.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:54 AM

It's called "tall poppy syndrome", I believe.
Anyway, you butted in and spoiled the rally.
New balls!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:00 AM

Thanks for the link, Banjiman.

For the record I found those comments 'quite interesting'. I didn't agree with them mind - but then I'm just an "inward looking self-flagellator", so what do I know?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Sigh. I really am leaving the thread in a mo. Banjiman could have looked a bit further down that thread where there was something I said that Ruth agreed with. :-) So a bit unkind but there you go. On t'other hand Dave could have trawled down a bit more and found much worse. Go, Dave! Good luck to y'all. I've lost. The "paragraph" remains inviolable and the thread now belongs to the sycophants. Next!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:08 AM

Steve,
Nobody's won, so you can't have lost - I believe in the law of entropy. Differences of opinion have been noted. Some offence was given - and more taken, but then that's internet communication without the assistance of body language for you. In the end no blood was spilled. But you're right, this one has been beaten to death.

See you again, in some thread down the road...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

Steve,

Absolutely no intention to be unkind, it was actually a completely random choice from your postings, the first one I read. It amplified the point being made though.

No winners, no losers, just points debated.

Enjoy the rest of the proms and I'll enjoy the folk event.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:28 AM

Captain Birdseye- Irish music didn't get to where it is without national government intervention.

If the government recognised traditional culture as part of the heritage industry, and promoted it accordingly (perhaps starting with the brilliant folk festivals we have), it would raise the profile of the music and dance both within Britain and beyond.

Amen! Well said.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:53 AM

TO ALL THREAD CONTRIBUTORS
Phew!! All your wide ranging correspondence has quite exhausted me concerning Eliza Carthy. But I`m a stayer and look forward to your observations on the Rachel Unthank item in today`s "Daily Telegraph".

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM

Looks like it is copied from last year's press release. Here's the Guardian's sort of near identical take on the same press release but dated last Septmeber.

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2168104,00.html


It's why the Telegraph is called a "news" paper.

And sorry - we did the Unthank sisters ages ago.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:33 AM

"Looks like it is copied from last year's press release."

I thought the same. Nothing new - the Belinda quotes are obviously old, and even the picture is of the old lineup.

I liked this bit:

"On the train from Newcastle to Carlisle, en route to visit folk singer Rachel Unthank at her cottage near Hadrian's Wall, I ask a fellow passenger if he knows the Unthanks.

I'm told they are a well-known local family, and that there is an Unthank Hall. And there was me thinking it was some rather original stage name..."

Right - so he'd done his research, then...

I find it rather hard to believe that anyone had to travel all the way to Carlisle on a train to construct a piece of press-release puff like this.

I dunno - why does it seem that recently there have been a lot of pieces in the national press by journalists who don't have any context for folk at all? The Telegraph could have got Colin Irwiin to do a much better job - he's writing for them now.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:48 PM

Well-known local family... I expect they are now, but George Unthank was originally from Teesside, not Tyneside, I think?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:53 PM

'The Telegraph could have got Colin Irwiin to do a much better job '

Yeah, I understand he's real good with obituaries *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:00 PM

????

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:42 PM

Yes, indeed, he did cause Mr Swarbrick to remark while sitting up in a hospital bed reading the Torygraph (why I wonder if he was feeling ill already?) that it wasn't the first time he'd died in Coventry. That was nine years ago and he's touring like nothing's happened.
.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:45 PM

Yes - and Colin has written one or two pieces since then, funnily enough - it would be sad if his whole career were defined by one incident (which wasn't even his fault).

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

The man totally amazes me, I watched a couple of vids on You Tube of the Fairport Liege and Lief line up, what energy he has...incredible! Now if we could get Swarb over to Canada, that would be something!

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:58 PM

Yeah, yeah, it was the Torygraph wanting to put an inside page to bed early . . .

Mr Irwin has written more than a few other pieces containing monumental screwups. No, I can't be arsed to list them. They're quite readily accessible.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM

...and they'd had the obit on file for some time.

Everyone makes mistakes. Personally, I think the great service he's done to folk outweighs any Colin may have made. Heck, even Folkiedave likes him now! :)

He's one of the good guys.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:12 PM

I find it rather hard to believe that anyone had to travel all the way to Carlisle on a train to construct a piece of press-release puff like this.

I doubt he left the office.

People lie. They pretend they are interviewing people in one place and they are really in another.

Disgraceful.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM

LMFAO!!!!

Naughty, naughty man.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:43 PM

with a view of that obituary in mind, I still have a problem with In Search of Albion, parts of which I enjoy immensely, but.....Maybe one one day I'll get passed the block.

Charlotte R