BS: Torture!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:44 PM

Teribus, it's not always about you.

I have often heard the argument put forth that "if they do it, we should be able to do it, too." In fact, it is implied several places in this and other threads in which the subject has come up for discussion.

It should be obvious that that kind of "moral" or "ethical" principle opens up a Pandora's Box of barbarism.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:17 AM

And where exactly Don have I ever put forward the arguement that:

"I fail to see that if one side of a conflict uses torture and brutality, that is a moral justification for the other side to do the same." - Don Firth's Post of 27 Apr 08 - 01:50 p.m.

I do not believe that I have have. Others have ventured the option that if "we" use "torture", the otherside is then more likely to use it against any of our troops captured. I believe that that is a complete red-herring.

Generally "we" do not use "torture", the cases reported so far have represented a tiny number of instances compared to the number of prisoners handled in the case of US Forces (Abu Ghraib). In the instances of accusations against UK Forces, Piers Morgan of the "Daily Mirror" actually went ahead and published articles about UK "torture" of Iraqi prisoners including beautiful photographs all of which were phoney, specially staged and all taken in the UK. Immediately they were published the discrepancies and errors were glaring. He should have had them verified of course but what the hell he's in the business of selling news papers - fuck the lives of the soldiers he was deliberately putting at risk by publishing them in an attempt to inflame the situation in order to sell even more copy.

By the bye, I was rather hoping that Guest TIA would acknowledge the difference and refrain from putting words into my mouth and then try to take me to task for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:28 AM

even teribus under torture would confess to being a perpetrator of Sep 11, if the right technique was used.

Barry finn - 'it was noted that every Dictatorship that used torture on their enemies eventually somewhere going down the lined ended up using torture on their own citizens.'

that says it all.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:36 AM

I fully understand the distinction between "justifiable" and "acceptable." In this context, however, the distinction is more academic and semantic than actual, and trying to hide behind that doesn't really cut it.

Please refer to my post above ~ 27 Apr 08 - 01:50 p.m.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:14 AM

"justifiable"
adjective
Her actions were quite justifiable (= there was a good reason for them) in the circumstances.

"acceptable"
adjective
satisfactory and able to be agreed to or approved of:
Clearly we need to come to an arrangement that is acceptable to both parties.
So what is an acceptable level of radiation?
This kind of attitude is simply not acceptable.

See any difference in those two Guest TIA???

Now what was it I said Guest TIA???

"perfectly justifiable under certain circumstances?" (Hint - Teribus)

or:

"perfectly acceptable under certain circumstances?" (Hint - Guest TIA)

Pay attention to detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 10:01 PM

But c) find it acceptable in certain circumstances. Quite some weasel room there.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

Previous post of mine on this thread (Teribus 20 Apr 08 - 07:23 AM)

"..just for the record, I neither A) Support torture, or B) Am awfully keen on it."

So then Guest Impressed it looks as though we are in full agreement.

As to your question - you know where you can file it. Guest "Whatever-you-chose-to-call-yourself-next-time"

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:39 PM

People want to know your role, if you had a role at all !

I rather think that most people aren't the least bit interested in that kind of stuff, which is completely irrelevant to the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Impressed
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM

Come on buddy, you have been talking out of the side of your mouth all through this thread. If your position involved direct contact with individuals involved in interrogation or you were yourself say so, this "is he or isn't he involved" cloak and dagger stuff is annoying.

People want to know your role, if you had a role at all !

You are now past the point in this thread in which you are expressing an opinion as a civvie.

I myself think torture is wrong, it's uncalled for in civilised society.
Why or how can you post here in support of it ?

By the way please answer this question.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 03:52 PM

On the subject of titles Guest - You don't impress me much

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Impressed
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 02:57 PM

Excellent accounts and so much inside information. Clearly we are in the company of either an ex Special Boat Squad member or 00 Teribus.

For Teribus's Eyes Only.

Live and let Teribus.

Dr.Teribus.

The Teribus who loved me.

Gold Teribus.

On Teribus's Secret Service.

Teribus with the Golden Gun.

Casino Teribus.

Thunderballs Teribus.

Moonraker Teribus.

From Teribus with Love.

Never Say Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM

I fail to see that if one side of a conflict uses torture and brutality, that is a moral justification for the other side to do the same.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:46 PM

Not my point at all Barry and you know that very well.

There are some here suggest that treatment doled out is reciprocal fact of the matter is that it is not. Instances of abuse and torture of prisoners under the custody of US or UK Forces is very much in the minority. The same cannot be said for those that those troops are currently engaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:34 AM

who's murderer is worst. Ridiculous basis for an arguement!
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 10:58 AM

Oh they were captured and taken to Abu Ghraib while it was under Saddam's control. Also captured were some downed RAF crews and an ex-SBS Officer who was doing some survey work in the Shat-al-arab. He was accused of spying. All those taken were mistreated, threatened, tortured. They were taken as Prisoners of War and as such covered supposedly by the Geneva Convention, as were the 605 Kuwaiti Nationals abducted from Kuwait and taken to Iraq and murdered.

Now which particular example of abuse by either British or American Armed forces caused Saddam to act that way irishenglish.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:39 AM

So I guess Andy McNabb and his SAS men weren't captured and brought to Abu Ghraib during the first Iraq war Teribus. I guess they weren't tortured either.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:19 PM

irishenglish, your post of 25 Apr 08 - 12:33 PM, intriques me slightly:

"Don't you think that our fair treatment of prisoners, ie, not stripping them naked, making them get in dogpiles, photographing them just might result in them treating our own POW's with decency? "Your contention that either US or UK Forces initiation of "torture" has lead to the terrorists adopting such practices is ludicrous." Is it really? It's not necessarily for the "now" Teribus. These things are remembered. When Abu Graibh hit the news, did you not think to yourself, uh oh, this can't be good for our guys? I know I did."

Eh, irishenglish, don't know where you were brought up, or what age you are. But for my generation in the UK there were many POW tales and "escape" stories abounded. So many in fact that our US cousins actually believe that a Steve McQueen character did all that marvelous stunt riding of motor-cycles during what was in fact the "Greatest Escape" ever made.

Now please irishenglish, please regale us all of POW escapes by the Russians in Afghanistan. Hells teeth, they maintained an Army of over 175,000 men there for the best part of a decade. There must have been some of them taken prisoner? How were they treated irishenglish? All this pre-dates Bush so their treatment could not have been predicated by what US forces have ever done.

Tell you what irishenglish you will not be able to come up with one single story. Do you know why? Because the other side simply did not take prisoners - rather scary isn't it.

So please do not in any way shape shape or form attempt to lecture those at the sharp end of things. They are fighting for survival, the strongest instinct known to mankind, they react as required and do whatever is necessary. That I understand, that is reality for those actively engaged, where the US Bill of Rights, the US Constitution, the European Bill of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention don't matter a shit if you happen to get caught by the opposition.

What happened in Abu Ghraib was absolute "peanuts" to what went on there in Sadddam's day - there are plenty survivors tales to testify to that if you care to read them. The treatment of prisoners is a damn site better that any of our troops could expect to receive at their hands and that has been a known factor since day one.

Expect the usual responses from those who tend to theorise and have never themselves ever been in harms way on the behalf of others for one second in their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:18 AM

Haven't looked at this thread lately - surprised to see it still happening.
Seems that the last statement on topic (before all that fascinating stuff about culinary occupations) implied that as long as somebody in Ulster does it, it's ok for the rest of the world to use torture - do I have that right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:39 PM

And my apologies to you, Windsor Knot. I wasn't calling you a moron, but it's possible for an otherwise intelligent person to act like a moron. This in response to telling Gervase to "go boil his head."

Maybe we should all count ten a couple of times before hitting the "Submit" button. And that goes for Gervase, too.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:57 PM

Teribus, I accept what you now say that you were not a cook, but in fact a sailor. As you are aware there IS a thread you were involved in which a discussion took place and it was said you were a cook on board a ship. I saw no denial or correction from you on that thread.

I apologise to you as I was clearly wrong. Now would you please do me the courtesy of explaining your outburst towards me earlier and your request for an explanation regarding a lady being tortured in Ulster ?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:15 PM

The following was Guest Windor Knot (25 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM)

"I can only assume this ridiculous rant is to deflect from the questions other members have put to you, including myself.

I will repeat it, Teribus were you an army cook ?"

Now that little passage refers to my post of 25 Apr 08 - 02:42 PM in which I stated the following quite clearly:

"I have never served in the British Army, or anybody else's army for that matter."

and also

"I served in the Royal Navy, where I was most definitely was not a cook"

Now if you have any trouble deciphering that Guest Windor, take it to one of the Doctors, yes they're the people with the white coats and ask them to explain it all to you. Maybe they should put your jacket back on while they do that, then we don't have to read the utter drivel you type.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:12 PM

Don I looked through some of his old posts the other day and there was a thread in which he was involved in and he spoke about his service history. In one of the threads there a discussion involving him and his position as a cook.

I really can't be bothered now trawling through them again.

Read his post tonight (25 Apr 08 - 02:42 PM) the guy has completely flipped. He directed questions at me to answer about a lady being tortured in Ulster thirty years ago !!

And you call me a moron, read that post of his and re-think your slur.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM

Hey! C'mon, Windsor Knot, don't be a moron.

Teribus can be dead wrong even if he isn't an Army or Navy cook.

Now, back to our regular broadcast.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:02 PM

To the resident bore above, GO BOIL YOUR HEAD.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM

Windsor Knot, the needle's stuck. Find another sock to worry, there's a good fellow. Your posts here show you to be an excitable and easily deluded sort - there are plenty of other internet forums out there where you can meet like-minded types. Try some of the Diana conspiracy sites, or the Illuminati nutters. You'll be among friends there, and - more importantly - you'll stop being a childish pain in the arse here.
And, for what it's worth, I've known some Army cooks whose boots you wouldn't be fit to shine (even if they were crap cooks who burned everything in sight).

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:05 PM

It's true what they say, Crackpots tend to find eachother.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM

Hey Teribus, I hope you believe me, when I say that I believe you HAVE answered Windsor Knot's question about being an Army cook. Now we can say that he is the one with problems!

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

What the hell are you talking about Terius.

From your earlier comments I thought, here is a guy with problems. Now I am convinced of it !

For what reason would I know or care about something that happened in Ulster in the 1970's ?

I can only assume this ridiculous rant is to deflect from the questions other members have put to you, including myself.

I will repeat it, Teribus were you an army cook ?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:04 PM

A ghastly story indeed, Teribus.

But I would ask you this, then:   knowing all this, how can you continue to defend the use of torture as being "perfectly justifiable under certain circumstances?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 02:42 PM

Ah, Windor, I am pleased that you have turned up.

This threat is about torture isn't it?

Well Irishenglish, old Windor would know quite a bit about torture, or the people he supports (or should that be supported) and continually defends, not as Guest Windor Knot, there's lots of names been used, haven't there Windor. You see irishenglish, Windor is a stout defender of the "bold" Provisional IRA, my mention of Mrs Jean McConville must have hit a thread in their little web, so an "attack" had to be launched.

Tell us about Mrs Jean McConville Guest Windor Knot, tell us all about why she was tortured. If you are a bit reluctant I'll repeat the tale I've told before:

Jean McConville was a Belfast-born mother of 10 who was abducted from her home and killed by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) in or around Christmas of 1972.

McConville's family contend that she was killed as a punishment for aiding a dying British soldier in West Belfast following a fierce gun battle with the IRA, but the IRA claimed that they had discovered she was passing information on local republicans to the security forces via a secret radio transmitter. A claim that has been discounted by the Police Ombudsman Nuala O'Loan whose office carried out a full investigation, no transmitter ever existed and none has ever been brought forward by the PIRA - twelve "brave and bold heroes" of the PIRA abducted this 5 ft tall widow from her house, dragging her from her bath in front of her screaming and hysterical children, and we are expected to believe that they left the radio behind???

McConville's children reject this claim and have called on the IRA to clear her name. In January 2005, Sinn Féin party chairman, Mitchel McLaughlin, claimed that the killing of Jean McConville was not a criminal act. Now it is extremely important that they (The PIRA) hold to that line because the man who had to have sanctioned this beating, abduction, torture and execution of an entirely innocent woman had to have been the PIRA Officer Commanding in Belfast at the time - a certain Gerry Adams - embarassing or what?

In response to McLaughlin's statement, Social Democratic and Labour Party Justice Spokesperson Alban Maginness suggested that the IRA were culpable for War crimes as Jean McConville was "killed 'without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all judicial guarantees which are generally recognised as indispensable', and that constitutes a war crime in the definition of the International Criminal Court". A second war crime occurred by the IRA's ' refusal to acknowledge deprivation of [her] freedom or to give information on [her] fate or whereabouts'".

To elaborate on something stated above. In July 2006, Police Ombudsman Nuala O'Loan stated after an investigation by her office that there is no evidence that Jean McConville ever passed information to the security forces. Mrs O'Loan said she would give the family more details of the findings of her investigation in the near future and would make those details public.

Mrs O'Loan said it was not her normal role to confirm or deny the identity of people working as agents for the security services. "However, this situation is unique. Jean McConville left an orphaned family, the youngest of whom were six-year-old boys. The family have suffered extensively over the years, as we all know, and that suffering has only been made worse by allegations that their mother was an informant. As part of our investigation we have looked very extensively at all the intelligence available at the time. There is no evidence that Mrs McConville gave information to the police, the military or the security service".

In August 2006, Northern Ireland's chief constable Sir Hugh Orde said he is not hopeful anyone will be brought to account over the murder. Sir Hugh said: "Any case of that age, it is highly unlikely that a successful prosecution could be mounted." This I believe is a "deal" being offered obliquely to Mr Adams and his former associates.

Oh, yes Guest Windor Knot, I forgot about the "torture" part, didn't I.

On December 6, 1972, a gang PIRA "volunteers" sent a false message into a social club where Mrs McConville was playing bingo that her daughter Helen had been knocked down by a car. Once lured outside Jean McConville was pounced upon, interrogated, abused and battered.

The following night she suffered another dose of mob rule. A gang of 12 masked members of the PIRA — eight men and four women - burst into her home and dragged her from the bathroom. She was bundled screaming into a car as some of her children watched. It was the last picture of their mother they have in their minds. The terrified mother of ten, still in pain from the previous night's beating, was tortured, her fingers were cut off to extract the "confession" that she was an informer and once that had been obtained she was finally forced to kneel, whereupon a "hero" of "the cause" murdered her with a single shot in the back of the head.

And here Guest Windor Knot is the finale of the whole sorry business, I'll not go into the catalogue of lies and hand-on-heart denials of involvement in the death of Jean McConville issued by the PIRA by non-other than Gerry Adams himself in the ensuing years. But finally it was Bill Clinton involvement that got them to come part-way clean.

McConville's body was buried secretly on a beach in County Louth, approximately 50 miles from her home. The IRA did not admit their involvement until over 20 years later, when they passed information on the whereabouts of the body.

After a prolonged search, co-ordinated by the Garda Síochána - during which the search area and time involved was expanded by the Gardaí - the search was abandoned, as no body could be located in the area specified by the IRA.

In August 2003, her body was accidentally found by members of the public while they were walking on Shelling Hill beach.

"A Garda escort accompanied the cortège to the border from where it made its way to Crumlin in County Antrim to be waked at the home of her son Michael. The funeral took place on Saturday with Requiem Mass at St. Mary's Church in Belfast. In his homily, Bishop of Down and Connor, Dr Patrick Walsh referred to Mrs. McConville's killing as touching "the depths of depravity". Monsignor Tom Toner, a friend of the McConville family, said, "Jean McConville and the other disappeared will forever stand in judgement on the shame and guilt of their murderers". A Presbyterian minister, the Rev. Ruth Patterson, read out comments from Mrs. McConville's children. "Among the mourners were Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) leader Mark Durkan and some of his colleagues. The Ulster Unionist Party was also represented but Sinn Féin politicians decided not to attend."

McConville, a Catholic convert, was buried beside her husband, Arthur, a British Army soldier who died in 1971, in Holy Trinity graveyard, Lisburn, County Antrim.

What Mrs Jean McConville suffered was torture. The two and a half minutes "waterboarding" that Khaled Shaik Mohammed endured doesn't even come close in comparison.

And finally Guest Windor Knot to answer your question:

"...answer the question. You were a cook and worked in the kitchen of a ship.People above are asking you to confirm this."

I have never served in the British Army, or anybody else's army for that matter.

As Gervase (24 Apr 08 - 05:52 PM) quite rightly points out in his post I served in the Royal Navy, where I was most definitely was not a cook and the only time I ever saw the inside of a "kitchen" was during rounds.

By the bye Guest Windor Knot, your terminology demonstrates more than anything your lack of real knowledge regarding myself. But just for future reference when you pop up as "Guest Something-else":

There is no such thing as a "kitchen" in the Royal Navy - They are all called Galleys even in shore establishments.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:56 PM

Go through his old threads freestater like the rest of us do and you will find it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

"Waterboarding" is torture, when used for real.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:14 PM

And tell us Windsor Knot how you come by such info yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

Never mind the usual ranting Teribus, answer the question. You were a cook and worked in the kitchen of a ship.People above are asking you to confirm this.

Is your delay in answering some form of torture ?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:33 PM

Teribus, not enough time at the moment to break down your post, except for the following:First, I am male, not female. Second, in response to,"Capture is not an option; If you do get captured you will be tortured and executed, neither the Taleban, or Al-Qaeda holds prisoners, they will not hold you hostage, because they know we will not bargain with them. Do not get captured, do not leave anyone behind."

Don't you think that our fair treatment of prisoners, ie, not stripping them naked, making them get in dogpiles, photographing them just might result in them treating our own POW's with decency? "Your contention that either US or UK Forces initiation of "torture" has lead to the terrorists adopting such practices is ludicrous." Is it really? It's not necessarily for the "now" Teribus. These things are remembered. When Abu Graibh hit the news, did you not think to yourself, uh oh, this can't be good for our guys? I know I did.



Also, "Terrorists do not take prisoners". Who was it that held hostages in Lebanon in the 80's then? Oh that's right, they were just harmless militia that had no ties to terrorists.No, wait, they did have ties to terrorism,such as Imad Mughniyah. And "Hostages are only held if they believe they can be of use" So university professors like David Dodge, ministers like Benjamin Weir and Terry Waite, and journalists like Terry Anderson were of great importance and were useful to these guys?

My point about it being easier to have captured some of these guys with our troops came out a little fuzzy ( I do realize that the offenders and incidents you mentioned were mostly pre-9/11). I also meant that our troops were of course looking for people yet to be captured, not ones that had already been captured. My point will remain the same though, no matter what-if you, Teribus believe on the one hand, "
If you are engaged in a war, you fight it to win, irrespective of what it takes, you fight it to win. I may not like that, I may not agree with that, but I cannot deny the reality of it, nor the possible necessity of it," and on the other, "just for the record, I neither A) Support torture, or B) Am awfully keen on it." then you are definitely at odds with yourself. SO military superiority and diplomacy don't get us a victory in this war,but rather, lies and degradation, and torture, and economic ruin, and a failure to plan ahead for the future of the region is what gets us that victory? Then we have sunk to a new low more than I ever had thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

In her post of 23 Apr 08 (04:45 PM) irishenglish had some questions for me:

1)Teribus, tell me how many of those you listed above have been tortured?
2) Tell me how many were tortured that provided names and locations for us to be able to capture them?
3) Can't do that?

Out "my" list of 37 persons, Irishenglish, involved in 1993 WTC Bombing (8); 1998 US Embassy Bombings (21) & the USS Cole Bombing (8):

-   33 have not been "tortured"
-   3 may have been subject to "waterboarding".
-   1 who has been "waterboarded"

-   4 have definitely been killed
-   4 are currently held at Guantanamo
-   17 are definitely in custody
-   12 are presumed still at large

Or put in simple terms two-thirds of those involved in those attacks no longer pose a threat, or can do any harm to anyone. One third are still at liberty and are being hunted.


Your answers are as follows:
1) One definite and three probables if "waterboarding" is considered as torture.
2) As they were already being "tortured" I take it they had already been captured - can't do one without the other as the song goes.
3) Yes, to a reasonable degree of certainty.

During the Presidency of "Peanut" Carter, on his instruction, the security and intelligence agencies of the United States of America, junked human-intel as being too suspect, from that point on they were to rely on electronic means of gathering information and on visual/sensor information gathered by instrumentation mounted in satellites or aircraft. This was a grave error, it was monumental in its idiocy, apart from what was given the US by Mossad and other "friendly" security services in the region the US went "blind" with regard to real intelligence in the middle-east region shortly after the Shah was overthrown.

Irishenglish in her post states that - "...our human intelligence has been improved (as well as physically having lots of soldiers around, that kind of helps too),aiding the capture of these men."

Really, Irishenglish? Now who are you going to give credit for putting all this in place? I'll give you a hint - In the wake of 911, who was it that said to the world community, "You are either with us or against us" - Once the world community had made up its mind the US Intelligence Services were no longer blind, they had access to human-intel from hundreds of different sources. You seem to imply that, "having lots of soldiers around, that kind of helps too". Who put them there Irishenglish?

"Your initial response to this thread came from a sheer sense of outrage at protesters actions against the police, yet you seem to be mouthpiecing the Bush administrations mantra of the standard rules don't apply after 9/11."

My initial response to this thread pointed out the hypocrisy typified by the left when viewing any situation - "The other side must be bound what I say, not as I do".

As for, "the standard rules don't apply after 9/11." - all three instances of terrorist attack that I have mentioned predate 9/11, most of those brought to book for those attacks predate 9/11. The notion that there are "rules" in war is fanciful nonsense at best.

Your contention that either US or UK Forces initiation of "torture" has lead to the terrorists adopting such practices is ludicrous:

"Let's capture some American or British soldiers and torture them, if they can change the rules, why can't we."

Irishenglish find out when this was written and by whom:

"When you're lyin' out there on Afghanistans Plains
And their women come out to cut up what remains
Just roll on your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your God like a soldier"

Before my son went out to Afghanistan this was drummed into those about to deploy:

"Capture is not an option; If you do get captured you will be tortured and executed, neither the Taleban, or Al-Qaeda holds prisoners, they will not hold you hostage, because they know we will not bargain with them. Do not get captured, do not leave anyone behind."

In Borneo and Northern Ireland we were read pretty much the same scipt. Terrorists do not take prisoners. Hostages are only held if they believe they can be of use.

If you are engaged in a war, you fight it to win, irrespective of what it takes, you fight it to win. I may not like that, I may not agree with that, but I cannot deny the reality of it, nor the possible necessity of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:52 PM

As far as I know Teribus has never claimed to have been in the Army. And I'm sure he would probably be most insulted if anyone made that assumption, as - to the best of my knowledge - he had the misfortune to serve in the Navy.
Do you have a serious point to make, Guest WK, or do you just get your thrills from gadding about and making snide remarks?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:57 AM

Well, well. An Army cook, eh ?

Who called the cook a bastard ?

Who called the bastard a cook ?

After dicussion in the Mess, following the Cream of Cockroach soup, and the Ptomaine Curry, who durst say that an Army cook knows naught of torture ?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 06:15 PM

Please understand Teribus is harmless, a little imaginative maybe. You find those that served in a support capacity in the armed services tend to regret they were not more mainstream, handled weapons, saw overseas service, stories to tell grandchildren. This poor guy has only menu sheets to show.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

"Teribus, since this thread is about torture, tell me how many of those you listed above have been tortured?"

Exactly so, irishenglish!

I have noted in the past that Teribus has a tendency to pad his "refutations" wiht a lot of extraneous and irrelevant information, apparently attempting to stun by the sheer volume of his post.

And by the way, irishenglish, I agree with the rest of your post, too.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Feel free to delete my last post as it has no bearing on the thread-Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:00 PM

Anonymous GUEST-my username reflects something personal. I am an American, so when I say our troops, I am talking about our troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:54 PM

When we do it (torture) to others the next step is that we do it to our own! Sorry, human nature.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM

Teribus, since this thread is about torture, tell me how many of those you listed above have been tortured? Tell me how many were tortured that provided names and locations for us to be able to capture them? Can't do that? That's because as I stated yesterday, our human intelligence has been improved (as well as physically having lots of soldiers around, that kind of helps too),aiding the capture of these men. I am absolutely disgusted that this country has applied torture to it's enemies. Your initial response to this thread came from a sheer sense of outrage at protesters actions against the police, yet you seem to be mouthpiecing the Bush administrations mantra of the standard rules don't apply after 9/11. So what that leads to is for someone else in the world to say, we are tired of the rules against torture. Let's capture some American or British soldiers and torture them, if they can change the rules, why can't we. ANd I'm taking a longshot on this Teribus, then I think that revulsion that you showed in your original post will come out at the audacity of someone doing that to our troops. So in the end, who wins when we torture? Probably the only one who does is the sadistic bastard who waterboards, or inserts objects where they don't belong. If you don't want to hear about someone doing that to our side, then we shouldn't do it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Stu
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:24 AM

Of course, if you support torture as a legitimate tactic for intelligence gathering you support it across the board - for everyone on every side of a conflict, regardless of whether they are combatants, civilians, male, female or children.

By supporting torture you support the suffering inflicted in the secrect prisons and gulags, laogais and detention centres, back rooms and isolated spots where these people ply their brutal trade.

After all, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, after all?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:54 AM

No I wouldn't say it was a fluke Teribus. Maybe it got too hot in the kitchen !

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 01:18 AM

1993 WTC Bombing - "This was a bit of a fluke and we got lucky." - Don Firth.

How about the 1998 US Embassy Bombings Don?:

The current indictment charges the following twenty-one people for various alleged roles in this crime.

Muhammad Atef - killed in Afghanistan in 2001
Muhsin Musa Matwalli Atwah - killed in Pakistan in 2006
Wadih el Hage - serving life without parole since 2001
Mohamed Sadeek Odeh - serving life without parole since 2001
Mohamed Rashed Daoud al-'Owhali - serving life without parole since 2001
Khalfan Khamis Mohamed - serving life without parole since 2001
Khalid al Fawwaz - held in the UK since 1998
Ibrahim Eidarous - held in the UK since 1999
Adel Abdel Bary - held in the UK since 1999
Mamdouh Mahmud Salim - arrested in 1998, held in the Guantanamo Bay detention camp
Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani - arrested in 2004, held in theGuantanamo Bay detention camp
Mustafa Mohamed Fadhil - probably held, but not definitely confirmed
Osama bin Laden - at large
Ayman al Zawahiri - at large
Saif al Adel - at large
Abdullah Ahmed Abdullah - possibly killed 1st June 2007 in Puntland region of Somalia, not confirmed
Anas al Liby - at large
Fazul Abdullah Mohammed - at large
Ahmed Mohamed Hamed Ali - at large
Fahid Mohammed Ally Msalam - at large
Sheikh Ahmed Salim Swedan - at large

Got lucky again Don?

What about the October 12th attack on the USS Cole Don?

"On November 3, 2002, the CIA fired a AGM-114 Hellfire missile from a Predator UAV at a vehicle carrying Abu Ali al-Harithi, a suspected planner of the bombing plot. Also in the vehicle was Ahmed Hijazi, a U.S. citizen. Both were killed. This operation was carried out on Yemeni soil.

On September 29, 2004, a Yemeni judge sentenced Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri and Jamal al-Badawi to death for their roles in the bombing. Al-Nashiri, believed to be the operation's mastermind, is currently being held by the U.S. at Guantanamo Bay detention camp. Al-Badawi, in Yemeni custody, denounced the verdict as "an American one." Four others were sentenced to prison terms of five to 10 years for their involvement, including one Yemeni who had videotaped the attack.

On February 3, 2006, 23 suspected or convicted Al-Qaeda members escaped from jail in Yemen. This number included 13 who were convicted of the USS Cole bombings and the bombing of the French tanker Limburg in 2002. Among those who reportedly escaped was Al-Badawi. Al-Qaeda's Yemeni number two Abu Assem al-Ahdal may also be among those now on the loose.

On October 17, 2007, al-Badawi surrendered to Yemeni authorities as part of an agreement with al-Qaeda militants. Following his surrender, Yemeni authorities released him in return for a pledge not to engage in any violent or al-Qaeda-related activity, despite a $5 million reward for his capture. Two other escapees remained at large."

Another fluke eh Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 12:50 AM

I am fully aware of all this, Teribus, but it doesn't change what I said. This was a bit of a fluke and we got lucky.

I don't think you are going to find very many more al Qaeda higher-ups and operations planners hanging out in Jersey City, New Jersey these days.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 12:25 AM

"For one thing, granted that the higher-ups in the planning of an terrorist attack may not themselves be eager to enter the Land of Milk and Honey any time soon, your chances of capturing one of them is not that great compared to capturing one of the "field agents" (for example, someone like one of the nineteen 9/11 highjackers)" - Don Firth.

The following sort of blows that one out of the water:

"The 1993 World Trade Center bombing (February 26, 1993) a car bomb was detonated below Tower One of the World Trade Center in New York City. The 1,500-lb (680 kg) urea nitrate-hydrogen gas enhanced device[1] was intended to knock the North Tower (Tower One) into Tower Two, bringing both towers down and killing thousands of people. It failed to do so, but did kill six people and injured 1,042.

The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj. They received financing from Khaled Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle.

In March 1994, four men were convicted of carrying out the bombing: Abouhalima, Ajaj, Ayyad and Salameh. The charges included conspiracy, explosive destruction of property and interstate transportation of explosives.

In November 1997, two more were convicted: Yousef, the mastermind behind the bombings, and Eyad Ismoil, who drove the truck carrying the bomb."

Hey Don out of those "involved" to any great degree I count seven caught.

More info:
"Agents and bomb technicians of the U.S. Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) responded to the scene of the blast. An ATF bomb technician subsequently found the axle in the bomb crater with the VIN of the Ryder truck that was used to contain the explosives. Further investigation by ATF found that the vehicle had been rented by a Palestinian named Mohammad Salameh. Yousef's friends reported the van was stolen in an attempt to slow investigators down.

On March 4, 1993 authorities announced the capture of Salameh. In a sweep the same day, Salameh's arrest led to the apartment of Abdul Rahman Yasin in Jersey City, New Jersey, which Yasin was sharing with his mother, in the same building as Ramzi Yousef's apartment. Yasin was taken to Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) headquarters in Newark, New Jersey, and was then released. The next day, he flew back to Iraq, via Amman, Jordan. Yasin was later indicted for the attack, and in 2001 he was placed on the initial list of the FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, on which he remains a fugitive today. He disappeared prior to 2003's U.S. coalition invasion in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The capture of Salameh and Yasin led authorities to Ramzi Yousef's apartment, where they found bomb-making materials and a business card from Mohammed Jamal Khalifa. Khalifa was arrested in relation to the crime on December 14, 1994, and was deported to Jordan by the INS on May 5, 1995. He was acquitted by a Jordanian court and lived as a free man in Saudi Arabia until his death in 2007."

Subject: RE: BS: Torture!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:50 PM

Having re-read Teribus' "refutation," I think the weaknesses in his argument are patently obvious. For one thing, granted that the higher-ups in the planning of an terrorist attack may not themselves be eager to enter the Land of Milk and Honey any time soon, your chances of capturing one of them is not that great compared to capturing one of the "field agents" (for example, someone like one of the nineteen 9/11 highjackers). There is a greater probability that a field agent is of a disposition to be willing to take risks and even die to bring the operation off.

But there is another matter:   in a well-planned operation, often those field agents assigned to a specific task may not know much about the overall plan, only the part of it that they've been assigned to do (common practice in such operations for obvious reasons). So the guy you're torturing may not even know the answers to what you're asking him. But under torture, he's liable to say anything.

Teribus, you keep telling me what I as the interrogator know. If I know all that you say I know, why am I even bothering to ask the prisoner much of anything?

Back to peelin' spuds, man.

Don Firth