Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi

Subject: how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM

In June, we are going to play at the harp tent at the Highland games, and I have been looking for happy Scottish songs to play. (They're not as easy to find as you might think.) Last night I was reading one of Reginald Hill's Dalziel & Pascoe novels. In this one, the great fat man, Dalziel, is lying in a coma in Intensive Care. His true love has set a music player of some sort by his bed and to play him some big band music. Then she switched to Scottish traditional, Dalziel being half Scottish.

As Dalziel floats between life and death, he vaguely apprehends a song called 'Mairi's Wedding.' "Aha!", I told myself, "A song for the Games!" I've found the tune, and it's a good one. This is going to work.

Except for one thing - I need to know how to pronounce 'Mairi.'

Also 'sheiling.' Is it shee-ling?

Subject: RE: how to pronounce Mairi
From: MMario
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

I don't know if it's correct or not, but I have always heard it as "shee-ling"

and "Mairi" variously as "May-ree";"my-ree" or "Mahr-ree". I prefer the last.

Subject: RE: how to pronounce Mairi
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:46 AM

Maary's - The Ah sound is what I would use - and sheeling would be fine too . But I am NOT a Gaelic speaker !

Subject: RE: how to pronounce Mairi
From: Megan L
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

In the context of that song it is usually Mah ree

Subject: RE: how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM

I appreciate the efforts, but I would like to hear from someone Scottish who heard the name growing up. It would be best if there had been a girl named Mairi in the same class at the village school, a girl with eyes bright as stars and cheeks like rowans.

Subject: RE: how to pronounce Mairi
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 03:16 PM

I learnt it as a dance and a tune. In an English primary school (we had country dancing lessons, and most of the dances seemed to be Scottish), about half a century ago....

Kitty

Subject: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:58 PM

GUEST Leeneia - after all that hot air on the other thread, I hope you got the answer you were looking for. When I was at primary school in the 50's, we used to sing along with a BBC radio prog & pronounced her 'mahyree', but then I'm English & it was an English prog & the beeb weren't so PC about regional ponunciations in those days, beeb language rules were a law unto themselves!

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:29 PM

Thank you, Jim. That makes two votes for mah-ree, so that's helpful. I thought perhaps it would have a long i sound, but no.

The DT says it was originally written in Gaelic. It would be interesting to hear it sung in Gaelic, then in English, to see if the song differs any depending on the language. Stresses and subtle changes in timing and so forth...

I found the tune on a site from Germany. The melody seemed to be played by a brass band! It was charming, actually.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:56 PM

On my recording of the song, I pronounce it 'Mah-ree'.

I don't know what all the nastiness was about on the other thread;
it's a great bouncy wee song, with a nice melody, and you can go into the instrumental 'Flowers of Edinburgh' out of it.

The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem did a nice job of it, as did many other top Irish and Scottish musicians.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From:
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:18 AM

I don't know which other thread you guys refer to, but as to the pronunciation of the name, because it originated in Gaelic, the Mah-ree is the proper pronunciation. For the Gaelic version... Mairi Bhan

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:19 AM

I have a niece - her Dad is Scottish.
Her name is spelt Mhairi ,(with a "h")which sounds like Mah-ree.
( "Mah" as in "far" )

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:24 AM

Mhairi, or any other spelling can be acceptably rendered to sound just like marry. If you can make it sound like there is the h behind the m all the better. I also hear it pronounced with a long 'a' sound, like Maahri.

G

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Megan L
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:26 AM

I dont know if you were being humerous with your wanting an answer from a scot comment on that thread. But as i told you there it is pronounced Mah ree. Meg who has only left scotland a handful of times in her life and whos ancestry and height shows it goes back tae the picts :)

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:49 AM

Cheers Giok , it is difficult to write these sounds - but my niece's name Mhairi's is pronounced with the long "a" exactly as you mentioned, and that is how I say and sing it. What more can a Sassenach-like myself-do ?

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:49 AM

One of my wife's friends is called Mhairi and she pronounces her name varee (a short a and long e). They are both Glaswegians.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM

In Gaelic the name is Mairi (not sure whether there should be an accent in there somewhere), but when adressing someone whose name is Mairi you should say "a Mhairi" (uh Vah-ree). This is known as the "vocative case".
Similarly in the song "Fear a Bha\ta" the boatman is addressed as "Fhir a bha\ta" in the chorus.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:46 AM

Mah-ree as done by the Corries.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:14 AM

That clinches it.

Thanks, Megan. I'm glad it's mah-ree, because the ah sound is a good one for singing.

I'll look into the 'Flowers of Edinburgh,' too.

Hugh, that is interesting about the vocative case. (It doesn't arise in the English words to the song, where Mairi is always is the third person.) I'd never heard of the vocative case before.

Welsh has similar changes, which they call 'nasal mutation.' I've never had a formal class, and I don't understand how it works. I do know that m's can change to either b or v, I forget which.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:26 AM

I wrote this about the Marriage of Princess Margaret to Tony Armstrong-Jones ... a long time ago.

Maggie's Waddin' Tune: Lewis Bridal Song (Mairi's Wedding)
(Jim McLean)

Sing a song o' tax and woe, empty pooches in a row
Chancellor's collectin' dough a' for Maggie's waddin'
Silk and satin, gold lamé, Tony wears a lum hat tae
Ma suit's in the pawn sae whit'll ah dae at the Royal Waddin'

Maggie flounces doon the aisle, her mither staunds wi' forcit smile
Needs a dose o' castor oil at her dochter's waddin'
Tony's doon on bendit knee, gied up his photographie
Nae mair birdies will he see efter Maggie's waddin'

Foreign guests fae near and far, packed inside Westminster Ha'
Parasites fae France an' a' at the Royal Waddin'
Whaur d'ye think they'll honeymoon? Rome, Paree or on the moon
Wi'oot a doot it's no Dunoon efter sic a waddin'

Noo they're mairried aff they blow tae spend a thoosan' poond or so
That's the way oor money goes for Mrs Jones's waddin'
Back again and help ma bob, Tony hasnae got a job
Wha will buy the christenin' robe - you an' me ah'll bet ye

Royal mince is awfy dear, Tony needs a rise next year
Increase tax on fags an' beer efter Tony's waddin'
Maggie's ta'en up fancy cookin' - Bird's Nest soup fae a Chinese book an'
Suzie Wong won't hae a look in - velly nicey wedding

Sing a song o' tax and woe, empty pooches in a row
Chancellor's collectin' dough a' for Maggie's waddin'

(as sung by Nigel Denver)

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:48 PM

I like it, Jim, I like it!

Is that the same Dunoon we were trying to locate on GoogleEarth in a recent thread?
=======================
Megan, I believe you mentioned being Pictish. Have you seen the Pictish scultures at Meigle in Scotland? I was there several years ago and enjoyed my visit. I have other happy memories of Meigle - our rental car broke down and people were so kind and friendly.

I got to talking with a university student who had an armful of cookbooks with titles such as 'Thai Cookery.' She told me her vacation was starting and she was going to practice cooking on her old dad. The look on her old dad's face spoke volumes.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:49 AM

Great Stuff Jim - I like it! :-) :-)

And Nigel Denver! Woo-hoo! The first guest performer at the first-ever night at Gainsborough Folk Club, way back - must have been in '68-ish! Great times and a great performer, lived in Lincoln for a good while, but not sure what happened to him. Aaaaahhhh, memories!

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From:
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:42 AM

Well, to answer about the long a sound. The name Mairi is properly spelled Màiri. The accented a indicates that the sound is held twice as long as without. That's why the sound is Mah-ree. As HughM explained, this is the actual name of the person. When addressing them, we use the Vocative. This is equivalent to the English "O Mary", we say "A Mhàiri". This is known as aspiration or currently as lenition. The "h" is there to indicate a change in the sound. Instead of the M sound, with the h there, we get a V sound. IE: A Mhàiri would sound as if you said Ah Vair-ee.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:32 AM

Okay. Thanks. People at the games will be interested in hearing this about the old language.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: LindsayInWales
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 09:05 PM

A friend of mine wrote the following on the occasion of the first wedding of Princess Anne - I think I remember most of it:

Canter gaily on we go
Fertilize the Abbey floor
It's the greatest TV show
Princess Annie's wedding

See them standing side by side
Philip laughing, Lizzie crying
........(line forgotten)
To hold her pony tail

Canter gaily....etc

They all went round to Lizzie's place,
Drinking champagne by the case
Poor old Mark can't stand the pace
It's carrots in the bathroom

Canter gaily.....etc

He grabbed hold of the one he wed
And dragged her to the bridal bed
But finally shagged the horse instead
Good old Captain Phillips....

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:26 PM

George was very well informed with his comments following his Well, to answer about the long a sound but, leenia, the aphorism "when in Rome, do as the Romans" is worth remembering too.

In Oz, the song's tune is about as "traditional" as possible, within the Oz context, and is frequently used for dances; the song is occasionally sung as well. I've never heard it pronounced here other than with the long "a" (as in Mah ree) and, while we have quite a few Scots (both real and wannabe pretenders) nobody would cooment about it being so pronounced.

Of course, if one sang it in Garlic, eyebrows would be raised (discreetly) unless it was clear to everyone that the singer's ethnicity enabled such linguistic dexterity.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:44 PM

Jim MacLean,

Great version of Maggie's Wedding. Earlier today I was also looking at Scottish Breakaway, and see that both contain references to Suzie Wong.

I must gave been around at the time, but the relevance of Suzie to Maggie and/or Tony has totally disappeared from my brain in the intervening years: could you refresh my memory, pretty please.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:34 AM

Snuffy, Suzie Wong was one of Tony Armstrong-Jones' paramours. There should be something via Google about her.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

Jim and Lindsay... good stuff!

Here's one pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:19 AM

Thanks Jim. I found this.

"For two years Tony's great and good friend was a sloe-eyed Chinese model named Jackie Chan (now playing a "yum-yum girl" prostitute in the London production of The World of Suzie Wong), and last year they holidayed together in Switzerland."

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding
From: GUEST,gnu
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for the link, gnu. It's a cute group, but I wish the singers would hold still. I believe they've seen too much River Dance.

It was nice to see the little girls dancing in their cotton skirts and blouses at what is clearly a hot place.

When we have the Highland Games in Kansas City, the girls competing have to wear their woolly outfits even if it's 90 out. I think it's really stupid.

Another reason for kids to think that adults are basically crazy.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From:
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM

Remember there are summer-weight tartans as well.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: Rowan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:40 PM

Another reason for kids to think that adults are basically crazy.

Well, I thought I'd steered my daughters clear of competitive dancing but #2 has a girlfriend whose parents are very Scottish, to the extent that everyone has to be involved with the local pipe band; the son plays pipes extremely well but the daughter plays drum only reluctantly. She learns the dances though and my daughter went along to see what Highland dancing was all about,

She took to it like a duck to water; whenever the two were competing, mine took 1st prize while her mate took second. Fortunately, as a result of the championships at McLean over Easter, they're now in different competition categories. And McLean is subtropical coastal northern NSW.

Daughter #2 will be accompanying her mum to Edinburgh for mum's 3 months' study leave in September this year and the dancing teacher is beside herself with enthusiasm forgetting my daughter up to the next competition grade so she can take on the Edinburgh scene.

Sigh! It's not just the parents who initiate these things.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: Marje
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 06:43 AM

When you come to pronounce Mairi in the song, you don't have much choice about how long to hold the "ah" sound it - the song rhythm tells you that, and also puts the stress on the first syllable.

The only thing left for the Sassenach to decide is which "a" to choose (as in "marry" or as in "far"). In fact, Scots speakers make little or no distinction between these two sounds, so just aim for a general middling-open "ah".

Marje

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,MHAIRI~
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:23 PM

its pronouced maah-ree. Or Vaah-ree in true gaelic.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:59 AM

Rowan, it's nice to hear about your daugher's success.

(You realize, don't you, that the reference to 'crazy' referred to the rules which require the same garment for a hot day in Missouri as for a chilly day in Scotland?)

We have been practicing our music for the games - Mhairi's Wedding, the Devil in Texas, Flow Gently Sweet Afton and The Stool of Repentence (instrumental). If that's not enough, we will add some early music just to show the people what it's like.

The object is to provoke a few smiles.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: Rowan
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:59 PM

Yes, leeneia, "crazy" can be applied to lots of situations involving "rules". All the best with your efforts!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:56 PM

Tell ya' what leeneia.......We're old buddies and you know that Spaw won't steer you wrong so I suggest you pronounce it Jablonski (Juh-blon-skee) and not worry about it.

I do that with my name. Its spelled P-A-T-T-E-R-S-O-N but I pronounce it Jablonski except on Tuesdays that fall on the first of the month and then I say "Smith." This shows your true spirit and indepencence, your willingness to point up what a pain in the ass it is to use proper sounding words in foreign languages.

Go for it......Say "JABLONSKI" and be proud!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,The Kid
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:27 AM

It should be pronounced M' - ARGH - eeeze! wedding

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: Rumncoke
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:18 AM

Having just sung it over to myself I find that I pronounce the Marie in the verse with a longer 'a' than in the chorus. Longer 'a' and more aspirate 'r'.

It is fairly early in my book (no 25) so it was most likely written down around 1969 or 70, but I wonder if I heard bits of it sung by two different people and picked up the pronunciation at different times.

I used to have a very accurate memory for sounds and songs and learned some at one hearing.

I don't think that you have to go back to gaelic to get a song right - if you are singing the rest of the song in your local intonation to try to put in something alien to the area is just plain wrong.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:30 AM

Spaw, thanks for the suggestion. I see that once again you march to that different and distant drummer. Trouble is, Mairi has two syllables and Jablonski has three. Would it be all right if I substituted Novak for Mairi? Or Sobczak?

Rumncoke, you have a collection of songs going back to the 60's? I'm impressed. I'm sure that I've learned many songs since then that have gone the way of the buffalo.

As for the name, the consensus is that it's Mah-ree, and that's a good sound to sing.

Kid, are you sure your screen name isnt' actually Kidder?

Yesteray I excavated a 16th C dance tune called 'The Scots Bransle.' If the friends are willing to learn a new piece, we will be doing that at the Games. I believe I'll ask Joe to post the MIDI...

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:15 AM

my cousin is called Mairi pronounced   maarry as in marry

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:23 AM

1. Forget about the posting of the Scots Bransle. Technical problems.

2. Thanks, guest, but the trouble with the word 'marry' is that some people pronounce it to rhyme with 'starry' and some people pronounce it to rhyme with 'Barry.' I've seen more than one reference to it in books about English.

However, I believe your cousin's pronunciation is what others have suggested here, so I'm happy to hear that we will be all up to date and correct at the Harp Tent.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: Rumncoke
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:29 PM

When I first started to sing in folk clubs I was always being asked for the words to my songs, so I wrote them down and took along sheets of paper for the copying of them - I soon learned not to lend pens.

Now I have a collection of about 300 songs and still keep remembering more to write down. The latest one is clyde water, but I supose I should add Matty Groves too - always another song, and as I get older they get longer.

I started out with three verses and a chorus and gradually grew into the ballads, which seems to be a pretty standard progression amongst singers.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:40 PM

No problem leeneia......Feel free to use Novak. As a matter of fact I know a family in Minnesota named Novak. Their eldest daughter went to school with Bob Dylan where they live in Hibbing. The thing is though, they pronounce Novak as Terakedis (Tair-uh-kee-diss) but I'm sure you can use Novak for Mairi.

Always makes me feel good to help out on these things.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:08 PM

The proper title is the Lewis Bridal Song but Mairi's Wedding is more often used now. It was written in the 1930's in Gaelic by Johnny Bannerman and was later translated to English by Hugh Robertson.
Mairi is pronounced Mah-ree with the emphasis on the first part. I have also heard it in Gaelic as Myr-ee but the first is much more common. "Mh" changes the M to a V as stated earlier and would be correct when addressing a person directly.
More about the song here:
http://www.mysongbook.de/msb/songs/l/lewisbr.html#gaellink

---

English lyrics usually credited to Hugh S. Roberton of the Glasgow Orpheus Choir. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:05 AM

Thanks for the link, Sandy. I plan to tell listeners at the Games about changing M to V. It will intrigue them.
====
Spaw wrote:

'As a matter of fact I know a family in Minnesota named Novak.'

That's absolutely amazing, Spaw. I know a family in WISCONSIN named Novak!

But Terakedis will do if I put the emphasis on the Ke. Will that be all right? However, I hate to bring Bob Dylan into this, no matter how peripherally. His voice has irritated me since Day 1.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 08 - 01:31 PM

Emphasize the KEE ..... Absolutely your choice and I believe it to be a good one. And just to keep Dylan out of it we'll call him Robert Zimmerman!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:54 AM

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,Mairi
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:33 PM

Im called Mairi and Im scottish. In the song 'Mairi's Wedding' it's always pronounced Mah-ree

Subject: RE: Mairi's Wedding-how to pronounce Mairi
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 May 09 - 09:46 PM

Hello, Mairi, it's nice to hear from you. Mah-ree is exactly how we sang it at the Highland Games.