Origin The Blackleg Miner

Subject: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

Where did the song the Balckleg Miner come from?
^^
This looks like a related song:
For information:-
COAL DUST ON THE FIDDLE pp334-5

THE YAHIE MINERS (no tune given)

Text contributed by Stuart McCawley, Glace Bay, Nova Scotia. "This 'come all ye' is sixty years old and still sung in District 26 (Nova Scotia)" - McCawley

Early in the month of May when all the ice is gone away
The Yahies they come down to work
With their white bags and dirty shirt,
The dirty Yahie miners.
^^
Chorus.
       Bonnie boys, oh won't you gang!
       Bonnie boys, oh won't you gang!
       Bonnie boys, oh won't you gang!
       To beat the Yahie miners.

They take their picks and they go down
A-digging coal on underground,
For board and lodgings can't be found,
For dirty Yahie miners.

Into Mitchel's they do deal,
Nothing there but Injun meal,
Sour molasses will make them squeal,
The dirty Yahie miners.

Join the Union right away,
Don't you wait till after pay,
Join the Union right away,
You dirty Yahie miners.

Mrs. McNab she keeps a hall
Where the Yahies they do call,
You'll see them flock around the hall,
The dirty Yahie miners.

Don't go near MacDonald's door,
Else the bully will have you sure,
For he goes round from door to door,
Converting Yahie miners.

Jimmie Brimick he jumped in
Caught MacKeigan by the chin,
"Give me Maggie though she's thin
For I'm no Yahie miner."

From Ricky Boston they do come,
The damnedest Yahies ever found,
Around the office they do crowd
The dirty Yahie miners.

The Lorway road it is now clear,
There are no Yahies on the beer,
The reason why they are not here,
They're frightened by the miners.

Anybody know any more?

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: webfolk
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

Blackleg miner is from the North East of England, it mentions pits like Seghill and Delaval.
The words you have posted are similar but I don't know which is older, I suspect the English one.

Geoff
www.webfolk.net

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:48 AM

Les - Since I'm back in the bush and don't have access to the book, could you tell me what the term 'Yahie' is supposed to mean?

This song is similar to if not a variant of a song I mentioned on another thread recently, 'Dirty Yankee Miners'. It is one my father, from Sydney CB, used to sing. He said that it refered to Newfoundlanders who were brought from the Yankee Mine in Nfld as strike-breakers. I heard a bit of it sung once or twice as 'Dirty Newfoundlanders'.

The Cape Breton singer and folklorist Ronnie MacEachern used to sing a few of the same verses to Mussels in the Corner - but he too used a term more like 'Yahie' then Yankee. His explanation was it came from a Gaelic expression having to do with 'home' or 'going home' - which the miners in question were - understandably! - always talking about. However, Ronnie is not a Gaelic-speaker, and I was always a little skeptical of his explanation. Now I'm curious to figure out if one term was a corruption of the other, and if so, which, or if their similarity is coincidental.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:52 AM

(Yikes - that should read "more like 'Yahie' thAn Yankee'. If some mudelf has nothing to do, perhaps the typo could be repaired ... )

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:04 PM

Sorry I can't help the passage above I copied from another thread on the origins of Bert Lloyd's 'Do Me Ama'.

That thread draws attention to Bert's tendency to add more than a bit to fragments of songs. I have always felt 'The Blackleg Miner' a touch too militant, but it's only a vague feeling.

How is it related to THE YAHIE MINERS, because it clearly is.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: nutty
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:42 PM

Googling for "Yahie Miners" brings up quite a bit of interesting info on the song.
Mainly -- that the Yahie Miners were strike breakers in Canada in 1910 and the songs is thought to be derived from Blackleg Miner which is believed to be older than that. Not sure if that is true but it gives a little more information.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: webfolk
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:43 PM

Les,
It's interesting you vaguely think Blackleg Miner too militant. I think it tells it like it was/is, and things where not much better in the 80's! Bloody Thatcher!

Geoff
wwww.webfolk.net

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:20 PM

It's not for me to disagree with the sentiments of the song. I think the main difference between the struggles of the 19C and those of the 1980s was the ruthless use of state power to surpress the Miners.

The problem is that Bert seems to be the only source of the song.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:39 PM

Seaton Delaval, presumably the Delaval mentioned in the song,
The Blackleg Miner, is about six miles north of Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

Seaton Delaval

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:46 PM

Dick Gaughan, on his website, suggests that the origins of this song lie in the 19th century Durham coalfields and also says that any relevant information can be found in A.L Lloyd's Come All Ye Bold Miners
Dick Gaughan

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

True enough Charlotte but the trail stops there.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:52 PM

Apologies for all the posts. :-)
I just checked the line notes on Steeleye Span's LP Hark! The Village Wait, and this is what is said about The Black Leg Miner, at least the version done by Steeleye Span.

'It is strange that a song as powerful and as singable as this should be so rare, yet it has only once been collected, from a man in Bishop Auckland, County Durham, in 1949. Seghill and Seaton Delaval (presumably the Delaval mentioned in the song) are adjacent mining villages about six miles north of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, but it is difficult to date the song due to the innumerable mining strikes which have occurred. It is, however, interesting in as much as it illustrates the violent hatred felt by the "union" men toward the blacklegs.'

- sourced from the liner notes Hark! The Village Wait.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM

"It is strange that a song as powerful and as singable as this should be so rare, yet it has only once been collected"


How true, how true, though to be fair lots of songs from the mining industry exist in one form and in some cases the writers were known.

This is not the only example of songs "collected" by Bert that appear to be extant without other variants and with little or nothing known about the sources.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catchers unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:55 PM

Wasn't Sir Walter Scott known to have included a few, shall we call them, imitations in his Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border? Now I'm not saying (or am I? ;-) ) that Bert Lloyd did this.....but..

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:02 PM

I think it's quite well accepted that Bert Lloyd did a fair bit of fiddling with songs. Including making up sources. And new bits.

That doesn't mean we don't love him...

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:09 PM

Love is the sweetest thing, and so it is. But ................

Bert was committed to the idea of the industrial working class having a living tradition of songs which reflected the life,times and struggle of said workers akin to the living tradition,although fading, of the agricultural class.

Lots of songs exist that were written about the lives of industrial workers, miners, sailors, cotton workers etc. But it seems that Bert couldn't stop himself adding to that collection.

Nowt wrong with that, as others have said, but what was Bert and what was collected?

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: nutty
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:10 PM

Here is the information on the song held in the FARNE archive

BLACKLEG MINER

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

Thanks Nutty,

"The song 'The Blackleg Miner' has always been a favourite with it's heady combination of working class camaraderie and militant political conviction. It was first collected from a man in Bishop Auckland, County Durham, in 1949. Seghill and Seaton Delaval (presumably the Delaval mentioned in the song) are adjacent mining villages about six miles north of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. The song is sung here by Pete Elliott."

Fair enoughski, but that takes back to Bert and his source but no further.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM

I don't have a problem with it at all..someone said, if you know all the words, you don't know enough words..Bert was giving us more of those words as far as I can see. :-)

but what was Bert and what was collected?

Something for the folk lorists, scholars and other folk to mull over in the years to come, I think.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:16 PM

"Nowt wrong with that, as others have said, but what was Bert and what was collected?"

We may never know. When we were at Glasson Maratime Festival, my partner was telling me about a particular song (I wish I could remember which one!) about a mining disaster. Bert Lloyd claimed the song had been written locally, but when, years later, the local paper was written to (it may have been by Roy Palmer) to see if the author could be traced, no one in the area even knew the song. Pretty convincing evidence of it having been written by Bert himself. That sort of evidence - trails going cold on particular songs - may be the best evidence there will ever be.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM

That wouldn't be The Gresford Disaster would it?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:21 PM

I honestly can't remember. Perhaps he'll be along in a while and enlighten us. :)

He's forgotten more than I'll ever know about folk music, anyway.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:22 PM

Was that song the Blantrye Explosion by any chance?

The problem really concerns what we can believe and learn from Bert. He is clearly one of the most important people in the folk revival, but we keep finding songs that he claims to have collected from real people and they turn out to have been more or less made up by him.

I trust I have not overstated the case here?

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:25 PM

I have a copy, thanks to my dad, of Bert Lloyd's book , Folk Song in England, inwhich talks about The Gresford Disaster. I have to admit I'm getting some fresh insight into Bert Lloyd from these last few postings...thanks to Les and the rest of the folks :-)

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

I don't think you have, Les. In their approach to collecting, Lloyd and MacColl were flawed in many respects, as were many of the collectors that came before them. (You should have heard what Shirley Collins had to say about the pair of them at Cheltenham!)

But that doesn't negate the significance of the legacies they respectively left behind. IMHO, anyway.

BTW, has anyone else ever noticed the influence of Bert Lloyd's singing style on Peter Bellamy? Maybe it's just me...

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:30 PM

It's still a really good book, Charlotte. :)

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:39 PM

It is Ruth, it is.. :-)

The Only Bert lloyd recording I have is The Bird in The Bush, and the only Peter Bellamy recording I have is The Transports. I've a feeling I'll have to look for more comprehensive recordings of both artists to make a voice comparision.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:48 PM

I have to admit to having a limited experience of Bert Lloyd's singing myself (though I have a bunch of Bellamy), but it struck me, listening to the recordings Roy Palmer presented of Lloyd during his talk at Glasson, that there was something about the pitch, and the catch in the voice, that was reminiscent of Bellamy. I read later that Bellamy acknowledged Lloyd as an influence, but thought MacColl was the biggest influence on his singing.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:59 PM

Ruth,

"But that doesn't negate the significance of the legacies they respectively left behind. IMHO, anyway."

I think I agree. But how many doddgy song origins do we need to unearth before we have a real problem?

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:06 PM

But Lloyd's songs don't exist in a vacuum - the people who engage so exhaustively in cataloguing and cross-referencing know when they smell a rat. I don't know enough about the research done on Lloyd's collected songs to say how much de-bunking has already taken place, but I'm equally not sure what would constitute a "real problem".

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

My memory is shocking. It wasn't a mining disaster song at all - it was The Recruited Collier, and it was indeed Roy Palmer who wrote to the local paper looking for "Mr Huxtable", his family, or for anyone locally who knew the song.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:49 PM

It is about time there were songs written about accountants being made redundant in the 1990s, having been in that position after working for that hideous bunch of shits at Binder Hamlyn for over 20 years. How glad I was when that firm was swallowed up by Arthur Andersen which itself disintigrated!!!

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:03 PM

Seghill is famous for the ring, owing to the legendary single netty, being freshly creosoted each day for reasons of hygiene. They was also a factory making fibreglass domes & minarets for mosques back in the 70s & a graveyard where human bones used to stick out of the ground. The locals pronounced it sey-gell, emphass on the second syllable, with the occasional Sieg Heil thrown in by way of a laugh; I've also heard it pronounced sey-geel.

I grew up near there, and even went school in Seaton Delaval, but never heard The Blackleg Miner until I started going to folk cubs.

There's a couple of Peter Bellamy songs on Youtube, including my wee film The Fox Jumps Over the Parson's Gate, which reunites Bellamy's legendary (& too long unavailable!) recording with the text & illustrations from the Randolph Caldecott picture book from which he got it. Have a look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhQMsONIwng

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 02:37 AM

Ruth, Peter Bellamys version of the song ' The Bitter Withy ' and Bert Lloyds version are so similar it's eerie.

eric

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 03:20 AM

Just going with the drift for a while I thought Peter Bellamy was one of the most exciting singers I have ever seen and heard. Although I have enjoyed his recordings, particularly the non-trad Kipling stuff, his live performances were extraordinary.

Lots of people owed Bert and clearly said so, not least the young Watersons. No problem there.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Artful Codger
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 03:38 AM

One big problem with false or misleading attribution is the issue of copyright infringement.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:22 AM

I thought we were discussing songs with no copyright issue until in turns out some /many could be down to Bert!

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:37 AM

Very few 'traditional' songs as circulated in the Revival are free from copyright issues. People who assume that they 'must be' just haven't done the research.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:44 AM

Interesting. Robert Colls' book "The Colliers Rant" mentions blacklegs and Seghill, but not the song. He does quote two verses from "a printed broadside dated 31 March 1831" called "The First Drest Man of Seghill" describing treatment of a blackleg during a period of fairly ferocious dispute in the area.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:51 AM

Lloyd refers to the above in "Folksong in England" but I think he calls it "The Best Dressed Man in Seghill" - can't check at present as I'm at work.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 05:40 AM

Lloyd quotes a 15-stanza text as 'The First Drest Man of Seghill (or: The Pitman's Reward for Betraying his Brethren)' in Come All You Bold Miners (2nd edn, 1978, 218-220). 'From a broadside printed by J Marshall of Newcastle (nd, but a handwritten inscription -John Bell's?- on the Sheffield University Library copy indicates '31 March 1831') ... communicated by J S Bell, of Whiston, Lancs.' (notes, p 255).

Martha Vicinus (Broadsides of the Industrial North) apparently places the dated broadside at Sheffield City Library, so one reference or the other is presumably wrong.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:01 AM

Peter Bellamy live was one of the most exciting musical experiences of my life; easily up there with Gong, The Damned (supporting T.Rex at Newcastle City Hall, May 1977), The Fall (circa 1981 when they were easily the best band on the planet), This Heat, The Art Ensemble of Chicago and The Sun Ra Arkestra. Just one man and his anglo in the back room of the Bay Hotel, Cullercoats (now sadly demolished!) - apart from when he borrowed a guitar for the encore of the Stones' You Can't Always Get What You Want...

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:08 AM

Stop it! He was tops on my list of "people you wish you'd seen live". I find his recordings so compelling and addictive - I am bitterly envious of everyone who got to see him perform.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:16 AM

Ruth,
Sorry - I got to see Bellamy perform on numerous occasions and found his ability to smash wineglasses at 30 paces with his vibrato both unpleasant and unhelpful to the appreciation of traditional song.
His excursions into the jingoistic world of Kipling I found totally offensive - but then again, that's me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

having read Karl Dallas's evaluation of Bellamy's career, including the Kipling stuff, I'm not sure there was as much jingoistic intent as people often credit him with.

But I realise he had a Marmite voice - very few people are indifferent to it.

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,George Henderson
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:07 AM

I was recently informed that the term blackleg came from those who worked in the pits coming out under cover of night and having a quick wash before heading for the pub. If the miner was suspected of being in the pit others would grab him and raise his trouser leg. His legs would still be black from the coal dust.

Anybody else heard anything about the source of the term?

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:18 AM

George

Doubt if "blackleg" has ever been so specifically tied to miners for that to be the origin. Wonder how long it's been around as a term?

Regards

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:21 AM

Kipling was a man of his times with views on the world many of us would not concur. But if you listen to "Tommy" the attitude towards soldiers by the general public expressed in that song makes interesting listening.

I would go with Sedayne rather than Jim, but you hear it and you either like it or you don't. I too saw him in a small room, the Grove in Leeds, at one point he borrowed a guitar to sing, I think, a Kipling song, I thought it was brilliant, but then again it was my guitar.

Are some of us avoiding the elephant in the corner that is Bertsongs, so to speak?

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:35 AM

"Blackleg" is late 18 C. Originally used for a racecourse swindler. Origin unknown. Present meaning appeared mid 19 C.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origin The Blackleg Miner
From: GUEST,Phil in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM

I was thinking about Bert Lloyd the other week, when I was looking for different versions of "The trees they do grow high"/"Long a-growing". Bert Lloyd's version, uniquely, adds another verse between the narrator's change of heart and "At the age of fifteen". The interpolation drops into the third person, explains what doesn't need to be explained and adds a totally misplaced dose of nudge-nudge bawdiness.

This discussion reminds me of the recent thread about "Reynardine", which Bert Lloyd did rather more than tidy up, and in particular in Stephen Winick's fascinating essay. The Recruited Collier is in there; there's also some reassurance for anyone wondering if we can ever trust Lloyd's collecting:

"There appears to be no direct evidence, as far as I am aware, to suggest that Lloyd actually collected [Reynardine] from a Tom Cook of Eastbridge, Suffolk--or from any other individual in any part of Britain--as [Stephen] Sedley said he did ... It is not clear how Sedley came by that information and we can only conjecture that he might have got it from Lloyd himself, as Sedley thanks Lloyd for his expert help in the introduction to [The Seeds of Love].
...
in later years especially, Lloyd did try to separate his revival activities from his academic writings, and to leave the latter relatively free of embellishment. For example, despite Lloyd's 1952 claim that he collected The Recruited Collier from J. T. Huxtable, which would make it a fascinating piece of miners' culture were it true, and despite the fact that it was clearly one of his favourite songs in the genre, he never mentioned it in the ninety-five-page chapter on industrial songs in his 1967 book Folk Song in England. He probably omitted the song precisely because it was not a genuine example of oral industrial folksong, and he wished that book, his most important scholarly work, to be as accurate as possible. Similarly, the song he called "Reynardine" in the revival arena is given its standard title "Rinordine" in Folk Song in England, and none of Lloyd's fanciful connections to Mr Fox, or to Tom Cook of Eastbridge, is mentioned there.

In his dealings with revivalists like Sedley, on the other hand, Lloyd appears not to have considered himself a scholar bound by rules of academic integrity. He was instead an unrepentant revivalist whose goal was to make folksongs popular. In this he succeeded brilliantly"

So: is BLM in FSIE?