Bertsongs? (songs of A. L. 'Bert' Lloyd)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM

Jim,
Looks like a perfect example of a Mondegreen.
Steve

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:05 AM

Never known about this one - that's what the man said.
Duckinfield - Shawe - Royton makes perfect sense to me
Ah well - I don't suppose we'll ever know.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: BB
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:50 AM

Artful Codger said, some way back, "How about telling us what "arranged by" really means?"

I would suggest that "adapted by" would be a more truthful description, and one which we use when we do such a thing. "Arranged by" should apply, surely, to the musical arrangement.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:39 AM

I seem to remember a "Come all ye", made up by Stan Kelly, from all those floating verses from other songs, does this ring a bell?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM

That's a VERY good idea Barbara - and one I wish I'd thought of 6 years ago. From now on, for me, it shall be thus!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:09 AM

who wrote the OilyRigs,BobRoberts?,he never claimed authorship.
maybe this passing off into the tradition,of modern pieces was more common in the fifties and sixties.
Dominic Behan has been criticised for passing off traditional material as his own compositions.
now Bert is being criticised,for doing the opposite.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

I remember well (one night at the Waggon & Horses, Bridge Street) Harry commenting that someone [he mentioned the name, but as a contemporary of Jim C and FolkieDave, the memory ain't what it

was :-)- might have been Paul Graney] said that there was a variant -

Aw've been blint at Dukinfield
An' Aw've been deaf at Shay [sic - dialect pron 'Shaw']
An mony's the reet an' willin' lass
Aw've bedded in the hay.'

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:06 AM

Hi Bryn
Whatever happened to Paul Graney's collection of recordings?
Was checking the map last night; Royton and Shaw are adjecent and Duckinfield (or Dukinfield) is not too far away - wonder if Harry was right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:09 AM

Jim

Paul Graney's recordings are in very safe hands. Johnny Adams and team have big plans for them, that he talked about at the last Traditional Song Forum meeting (see notes here - and apologies for the mis-spelling. Note taking is another oral process).

Back to the thread (OK - I'm a late-comer, as usual). I only once saw Bert perform live (at the Jolly Porter in Exeter) and it was a wonderful experience. Throughout the 70s he was a source of inspiration and object of admiration. Without his example I suspect that I would never have developed that interest in 'where songs come from'. In time I came to realise that many of my favourite songs, from many of my favourite singers had his fingerprints on them. Later still I found the 'dodgy' aspects of his scholarship and, yes, I have to admit was a bit disappointed and, to a degree, disillusioned. But his contribution was, as has been said on this and the other threads, outstanding and permanent. Thanks, Bert.

Martin Graebe

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

I use to see Paul Graney on a regular basis around the clubs in Manchester and I always wondered what his collection consisted of.
The nearest I ever got to finding out was through a friend, the late Terry Whelan, who had been promised some recordings by Paul.
This was in the days when new songs where not that easy to come by (outside London), so Terry looked forward to receiving them with some anticipation.
One night Paul turned up at The Pack Horse with a tape for Terry, and when we all got back to his home, the tape recorder was dragged out, the tape put on, and we all say in great expectation.
Paul's voice came over the speaker, "Hello Terry, I know you're an animal lover, so I thought you might be interested in this".
There followed a magnificent, 20 minute recording of - Siberian timber wolves.
Any disappointment we felt was more than made up for by the expression on Terry's face.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 03:22 AM

It is so nice to see the knowledge and scholarship demonstrated in this thread.

Why do we see so little of it demonstrated at folk clubs and singarounds and song sessions, at least as far as I see in Kent?

And since my reading of dots is so poor, if I were to start adding to the repertoire of old songs that I can do, with which recordings available from where should I start?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM

As someone who is a late entrant to this discussion there is an interesting parallel with the idea that we all alter/adapt songs for our own use - adding/subtracting a little or changing words here or there . On the Musical Traditions website Rod Stradling has started putting togethere a record of how people have changed songs, and why. Makes interesting reading

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/songbook/s_index.htm

DAVE

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: meself
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

Richard: If you haven't already, I would go to the aforementioned Musical Traditions site http://www.mustrad.org.uk/ and take a look through the reviews. There is much coverage of traditional English singers and songs; often sound clips are included. Lots of interesting reading there, as well.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: BB
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

Richard, Topic's Voice of the People series (twenty of them!) are probably the best, having a terrific variety of songs, styles, etc. of traditional (i.e. 'source') performers, with information galore, and helpfully, the words of the songs as well, so you don't have to 'translate' from the recordings, just get the tunes in your head. You can find them on the Topic website here , then go to the 'Voice of the People' page. One or two of them are just music I think, but you can trawl through and decide which ones are most suitable for you.

And I think that perhaps that folk clubs, singaround and sessions are not the places to demonstrate this sort of knowledge and scholarship - that doesn't necessarily mean that none of the people concerned have it. The Folk Music Journal, and to a lesser extent English Dance and Song, both received automatically by EFDSS members, as well as such places as the Musical Traditions website mentioned above, will give you plenty of reading, and may also lead you to other publications that are available. If you see earlier books that you think might be interesting, they can often be found through sites like this
, which we've used so many times to find out of print tomes.

One other place to discover expert knowledge would be workshops, at festivals, or some clubs run them. Near you, Lewes would probably be the nearest, or Cecil Sharp House if you're prepared to brave the Great Wen.

See you at Broadstairs, I hope.

Barbara

Good luck on your voyage of discovery.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:54 AM

If we were to present a scholarly introduction to every song sung, or tune played, in a session or club, there wouldn't be much music played.

I'm grateful to the many thoughtful contributions to this thread, it has been one of the best I've seen on many forums in a long time. One can only at best make educated guesses as to Bert's motives. No doubt we are all glad for the great contribution he made and I have no argument with his re-arranging, we all do that, but I would have preferred it if he had been open about what he had done.

I've just acquired a copy of "The Imagined Village" on which there is a version, by Billy Bragg, of "Hard Times of England". It has been very much brought up to date with mentions of the Countryside Alliance and people buying second (holiday) homes and closures of post offices etc. All very relevant to today's listener. However, we still have an original. If Bert did adapt rural songs to make them industrial, I for one think that was a valid thing to do, however, if it was at the expense of the original song being lost, then that is lamentable.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: John Routledge
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM

A great thread indeed

It is becoming an appropriate contemporary memorial for Bert's Centenary.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:29 AM

I for one think that was a valid thing to do, however, if it was at the expense of the original song being lost, then that is lamentable.
agreed,
but didnt some of the early song collectors do this,was it Baring Gould or Sharp.I believe Sharp kept the originals.please correct me if I am wrong
however they both had agendas,they didnt collect everything that was sung to them,and both seemed to concentrate on rural rather than urban songs.
the bowdlerisataion of songs,to make them acceptable to schools,has to be seen in relation to the prevailing attitude of the time.
perhaps LLoyd should be seen in this context.
I am sure LLoyd would act differentlyif he were active today .today.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

Pete Standing says:

"If Bert did adapt rural songs to make them industrial, I for one think that was a valid thing to do, however, if it was at the expense of the original song being lost, then that is lamentable".

Pete, I think you are missing some of the point a bit.Bert (or anyone else) can adapt songs from rural to industrial, terrestrial to Venusian, what does it matter? We all have total artistic freedom. His changes may make original songs get lost: well, fine, the world would get clogged up with songs otherwise. These are not problems. What people are objecting to is that Bert appears to have faked historical evidence. And because he was so good at it, it's very difficult to spot.
Most people are incapable of writing an old song that is convincing: Bert was the only bloke who could do it consistently. And faking historical evidence is a sin, becaue it can lead people to base their lives and philosophies on a total lie. He really should not have done it, it was a disgrace. Rewrite a song fine. Rewrite a song, and claim it was collected in 1936, or it was discovered in an old manuscript, and you've stepped over the line.
   The big question is, did Bert do this? And if so, how often? And when, exactly? That is what people are trying to find out. My impression is that he did deliberately fake from time to time.And when he wasn't deliberately concealing, he sometimes ommitted to explain what he was up to, even though he knew people were being deceived.
    I have a huge admiration for the man. But he was seduced into conning people because he wanted so hard that people should believe that the proletariat had always shared his particular political opnions. So if the proletariiat had ommitted to leave evidence to this effect, Bert was prepared to fill the gap. You can understand his motivation, on the scale of sins it's not very deadly, but it was a bad thing to do.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

Thanks Greg, a brilliant summing up.

I guess we will celebrate his work without much of a quibble but in the longer term it would be much better if we could sort out what is Bert and what is real?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

Looking for something else, I happened on this page, which juxtaposes Bert Lloyd's "Skewball" with a couple of the broadside versions it derived from. The differences are fairly large - it'd almost be quicker to list the similarities.

I honestly don't know what to think about this. Bert Lloyd's version (as sung later by Steeleye Span and Martin Carthy) is much more the finished article than the broadsides, and almost certainly sings a lot better - but I can't help feeling it's a different song.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:19 PM

I know what you mean Phil.

I guess it would make more sense for somebody to write a more academic article trying to draw together a conclusion on the hypothesis that Bert was trying to build.

Whilst I think this thread has shown what that was, it would help to separate the songs that have been simply drawn from a range of known sources to those that were altered to make them fit the hypothesis.

Who's up for the challenge then?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: JeffB
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

Sorry Phil, I don't quite follow you. You seem think it's a better song than the broadsides which inspired it. What more need you think?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:16 PM

Jeff - my problem with Bert Lloyd's "Skewball" is that until I saw that page I never for a moment thought it was Bert Lloyd's "Skewball". You expect a bit of tidying-up, but not new rhyme words or entire new verses. What I don't know is how up-front Lloyd was about the changes he'd made to it. I guess "Trad. arr." could cover a multitude of sins.

Subject: Lyr Add: SKEWBALL / STEWBALL
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

In America, the Stewball ballad was "...most popular in the Negro south, where the winning horse is known variously as 'Stewball' or 'Kimball," and was apparently one of the chain-gang songs. The song was recorded by Leadbelly in 1940 (cd available via the Smithsonian Museum), by Joan Baez (album title Joan Baez/5), by Peter Paul and Mary, and a number of successive artists.

There is a closely-related American song, called Molly and Tenbrooks (also Run, Molly, Run; Old Tim Brooks; Tim Brooks; The Race Horse Song), which celebrates the famous east-west four-mile Kentucky match between the California mare Mollie McCarty and the great Kentucky racehorse Ten Broeck in 1878.

There are several versions of the Molly/Ten Broeck saga, as well, and Folklorist D.K. Wilgus believed there was a connection between the Skewball ballad and that of Molly and "Tenbrooks." In the real race, which Ten Broeck won, Mollie was distanced in the first (and final) heat, an incident seen in the Baez version of Stewball.   
Up until the 19th century, broadsides were the most inexpensive means of disseminating information in Great Britain, the earliest dating to the sixteenth century. Popular songs printed on a single side of a sheet of paper sold for a penny or less, and treated a broad variety of subjects, from the political to biblical, from medieval romance and very old ballads to contemporary events treated in a satirical vein. The ballad broadsides were often set to already familiar tunes. They were frequently illustrated with woodcuts.

The Bodleian Library of the University of Oxford has a substantial collection of over 25,000 items, in named collections which have been donated over the past 300 years. Among these are a collection bequeathed to the University in 1975 from Walter N.H. Harding, and within the 15,000 broadside ballads in this collection are several versions of Skewball. To see images and actual appearance of the original broadsides, and the thousands more in the Bodleian collection, all organized in a very useful on-line database (search for ("Skewball"), please visit the Bodleian Library Broadsides Ballad collection.

   


Some recordings of this song in various versions include: "Timbrooks and Molly" (Warde Ford, The Hole in the Wall (AFS 4210A1, 1939, AMMEN/Cowell); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (Bill Monroe & His Blue Grass Boys (Columbia 20612, 1949); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (Sonny Osborne (Kentucky 605, n.d.); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (The Stanley Brothers (Rich-R-Tone 418, 1948). The versions were noted by Wilgus in Kentucky Folklore Record V. II, No. 3; Vol. II, No. 4.

Below are two of the five versions of Skewball from the Bodleian ballad broadsides; the one on the right is dated 1784, the one on the left undated, but it appears to be the older of the two. To show how lyrics change over time, the Steeleye Span version of Skewball (from Ten Man Mop or Mr. Reservoir Butler Rides Again, available on cd from Shanachie Records Corp. (� 1989)) and the version (Stewball) sung by Joan Baez on the album Joan Baez/5 (Vanguard: VSD-79160), the latter set to a tune by the Greenbriar Boys. Beneath those are different versions of the saga of Mollie McCarty and Ten Broeck, where Skewball/Stewball starts making an appearance.

Skewball (Harding B-6 (54) 00668)

You Gentlemen Sportsmen I pray listen all
I'll sing you a song in the praise of Skewball
And how they came over you shall understand
By one Squire Irvine the Mell of [of] our land.

500 bright guineas on the plains of Kildare
I'll bet upon, Sportsmen, that bonny-grey mare
Skewball hearing the wager, the wager was laid
He said loving master, its don't be afraid.

For on my side thou'st laid thousands of pounds
I'll rig in thy castle a fine mass of gold.
Squire Irvine he smiled, and thus he did say,
You gentlemen-sportsmen to-morrow's the day

Your saddles and bridles, and horses prepare,
For we will away th [to] the plains of Kildare.
The day being come, & the horses bro't out,
Squire Irvine he order'd his rider to mount.

All the people then went to see them go round
They swore in their hearts that they ne'er touch'd the ground.
And as they were riding this was the discourse
The grey mare will never touch this horse.

O, loving kind rider come tell unto me,
How far is the grey mare behind you said he...
O loving master you bear a great smile,
Grey mare is behind me a large English mile

For in this country I was ne'er seen before
Thou hast won the race & broken lord Gore.

Skewball (Harding B-25 1784 10198)

Ye gentlemen sportsmen I pray listen all,
And I'll sing you a song in praise of skewball,
And how he came over you shall understand,
It was esquire Mirvin a peer of our land.

And of his late actions is I have heard before,
And how he was challenged by one Sir Raph Gore,
For five hundred guines on the plains of kilder,
To run with Miss Sportsly that charming grey mare.

Skewball then he hearing the wager was laid,
He to his kind master said be not afraid.
For I on my side you thousands will hold,
I'll lay on your castle a fine mass of gold.

The time being come and the cattle led out,
The people came flocking from east, west, and south,
To beat all the Sportsmen I vow and declare,
They'd enter their money all on the grey mare.

Squire Mirvin he smiled and thus he did say,
Come gentlemen sportsmen that's money to lay.
All you that's got hundreds I will hold you all,
For I will lay thousands on famous Skewball.

Squire Mirvin he smiled, and thus he did say,
Ye gentlemen sportsmen to morrow's the day,
Your horses and saddles and bridles prepare,
For we must away to the plains of kildar.

The time being come and the cattle walk'd out,
Squire Mirvin he order'd his rider to mount,
With all the spectators to clear the way,
The time being come not a moment delay,

These cattle were mounted away they fly,
Skewball like an arrow past Miss Sportsly did fly,
And the people stept up for to see them go round,
They swore in their hearts he ne'er touch the ground.

And as they were just in the midst of their sport,
squire Mirvin* to his rider begun this discourse,
O loving kind rider come tell unto me,
How far is Miss Sportsly this moment from thee.

O loving kind master you bear a great style
The Grey Mare is behind me a full English mile,
If the saddle maintains as I warrent you there
We ne'er shall be beat on the plains of Kildar.

And as they were running past the distance chair,
the gentlemen cry'd Skewball never fear,
Although in this country thou wast never seen before,
Thou beating Miss Sportsly has broke Sir Ralph Gore.

*Corrected the next year to: Skewball to his rider began this discourse

Skewball (Steeleye Span)

You gallant sportsmen all, come listen to my story
It's of the bold Skewball, that noble racing pony
Arthur Marvel was the man that brought bold Skewball over
He's the diamond of the land and he rolls about in clover

The horses were brought out with saddle, whip and bridle
And the gentlemen did shout when they saw the noble riders
And some did shout hurray, the air was thick with curses
And on the grey Griselda the sportsmen laid their purses

The trumpet it did sound, they shot off like an arrow
They scarcely touched the ground for the going it was narrow
Then Griselda passed him by and the gentlemen did holler
The grey will win the day and Skewball he will follow

Then halfway round the course up spoke the noble rider
I fear we must fall back for she's going like a tyger.
Up spoke the noble horse, ride on my noble master
For we're half way round the course and now we'll see who's faster

And when they did discourse, bold Skewball flew like lightning
They chased around the course and the grey mare she was taken
Ride on my noble lord, for the good two hundred guineas
The saddle shall be of gold when we pick up our winnings

Past the winning post bold Skewball proved quite handy
And horse and rider both ordered sherry, wine and brandy
And then they drank a health unto Miss Griselda
And all that lost their money on the sporting plains of Kildare   Stewball (Joan Baez/5)

Stewball was a good horse
He wore a high head,
And the mane on his foretop
Was as fine as silk thread.

I rode him in England,
I rode him in Spain,
And I never did lose, boys,
I always did gain.

So come all you gamblers,
Wherever you are,
And don't bet your money
On that little gray mare.

Most likely she'll stumble,
Most likely she'll fall,
But you never will lose, boys,
On my noble Stewball.

As they were a-ridin'
'Bout halfway around,
That gray mare she stumbled
And fell on the ground.

And away out yonder,
Ahead of them all,
Came a prancin' an' dancin'
My noble Stewball.

Stewball: A Version
Source: Fiddle Players' Discussion List, Meghan Merker

Way out in California
Where Stewball was born
All the jockeys said old Stewball
Lord, he blew there in a storm

CHORUS: Bet on Stewball and you might win, win, win
Bet on Stewball and you might win

All the jockeys in the country
Say he blew there in a storm
All the women in the country
Say he never was known

When the horses were saddled
And the word was given: Go
Old Stewball he shot out
Like an arrow from a bow

The old folks they hollered
The young folks they bawled
The children said look, look
At that no good Stewball   Stewball: Another Version
Source: Fiddle Players' Discussion List, Meghan Merker

There's a big race (uh-huh), down in Dallas (uh-huh)
Don't you wish you (...) were there? (...)
you would bet your ( ) bottom dollar ( )
On that iron ( ) grey mare ( )
Bet on Stewball & you might win, win, win
Bet on Stewball & you might win!

Way out / in California / when old Stewball / was born
All the jockeys / in the nation / said he blew there / in a storm

Now the value / of his harness / has never / been told
His sadlle / pure silver / & his bridle / solid gold

Old Stewball / was a racehorse / Old Molly / was too
Old Molly / she stumbled / Old Stewball / he flew

Run Molly Run
Source: Kingston Trio ("Goin Places")

Chorus: Run Molly, run (oh, Molly). Run Molly, run.
Long John's gonna beat you, beneath the shinin' sun.

Long John was the youngest horse and Molly was the old.
Molly was an old grey mare and he was a stallion bold,
oh, Lordy, he was a stallion bold.

Long John said to Molly, "You're runnin' your last race
'Cause when I turn my head around I'm gonna see your face,
old gal, I'm gonna see your face."

Molly said to Long John, "Don't take me for a fool.
If you didn't cut your ears and tail, I'd think you were a mule
(Yeah!) I'd think you were a mule."

Long John, he got mad, oh, Lord, and shook his wooly mane.
"Last time that I run, old girl, I beat the Memphis train.
I beat the Memphis train."

Chorus

See them waitin' on the track. The man, he hollered, "Go!"
Long John runnin' fast, Lord, Molly runnin' slow.
Molly runnin' slow.

Long John said to Molly, "Take a last look at the sky.
'Cause baby when I pass you by, my dust's gonna blind your eye,
oh, Lord, my dust's gonna blind your eye."

Run, Molly, run. Look out for the turn,
oh, Lordy, Lordy, here she comes!

Long John beatin' Molly. Wait, what do I see?
Molly passin' Long John. Molly runnin' free,
oh, Lordy, Molly runnin' free.

Run Molly, run (oh Molly). Run Molly, run.
Put old Long John out to stud and let old Molly run!   Molly and Tenbrooks
Source: Steve Gillette and Linda Albertano, Cherry Lane Music, 1967

Tenbrooks was a bay horse, had a long, shaggy mane
Rode all around Memphis, beat the big Memphis train.
Run, Tenbrooks, run, if you don't run
Molly gonna beat you to the bright shinin' sun.

The women were weepin', their babes cryin' too.
The nine proud horses came thunderin' through.
With molly the leader, her head tossin' high.
With Molly the leader, with Tenbrooks behind,
She came flyin' by.

We shouted to Kuyper, you're not ridin' right.
Molly is a beatin' Tembrooks out of sight.
Kuyper, oh Kuyper, Kuyper my son,
Give him the bridle, let Tenbrooks run.

Tenbrooks looked at Molly, your face is so red.
Been runnin in the hot sun with a feverish head.
You're fallin' behind me, I'm out here all alone
Molly says to Tenbrooks, I'm leavin' this world
I'm a goin' on home.

Oh, run fetch old Tenbrooks and tie him in the shade.
They're buryin' Molly in a coffin ready made.
Out in California Molly done as she pleased,
Back in Kentucky, got beat with all ease,
Got beat with all ease.


A Related, Possibly Older Version
Source: "E.L."

chorus:
Run Molly, run
Run Molly, run
Tembruck gonna beat you
Bright shinin'sun.
Bright shinin' sun, oh lordy, bright shinin' sun.

They ran the Kentucky Derby on the 24th of May,
Some bet on Tembruck, some on Molly Day.
Some on Molly Day, oh lordy, some on Molly Day.

chorus

Piper, oh Piper, you're not runnin' right
Molly's beatin' Tembruck way out of sight.
Way out of sight, oh lordy,way out of sight.

chorus

Piper, oh Piper, oh Piper my son
Let old Tembruck have his head,let old Tembruck run.
Let old Tembruck run, oh lordy, let old Tembruck run







Skewball was a Racehorse The Ballads Was Skewball a Skewbald?






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with respect LLoyds[steeleyespan] version is the best,I dont feel he has altered the sentiments of the song,just added a bit of colour,much as Roberts did to Gamekeepers lie sleeping,
he is certainly not putting any political agenda over in this song.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:02 PM

stewball/skewbald wins the race,if LLoyd had had the old grey mare winning the race,then we have a noticeable change of plot.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:12 PM

No, Dick. But just suppose a historical linguist was to analyse that lyric in the belief that it was intact as collected? His conclusions would be nonsense.

These are not just old songs, they are historical documents with a value akin to old letters, invoices, workhouse menus or ship's weighbills. Changing them to any extent is not a crime. But failing to explain that you have done so is liable to be construed by historians if not singers as forgery.

Tom

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:14 PM

I dont feel he has altered the sentiments of the song,just added a bit of colour

It looks to me more like a new song.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: JeffB
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:41 PM

There has been a lot of pain and confusion over Bertsongs in the last couple of weeks. Every who is interested in the old songs is bound to be a little of a historian and musicologist (however humble) as well as a perfomer. Finding out that some old favourites did not date verbatim back to the early 19th C after all can be disconcerting, like when you "see through" an optical illusion and realise the arrow is not pointing to where you thought. Some people, understandably, don't now know what to think about A L Lloyd. But something like this has happened before and people got over it. If you don't mind my squandering a bit of bandwith, in the words of the immortal MB I want to tell you a story ...

There was once a man named Tom Keating; perhaps an unremarkable man except for one extraordinary talent - he was a bloody marvellous painter. Tom could paint in any style from any period - Renaissance, Impressionist, Expressionist, Dadaist: Cezanne, Renoir, Titian - you name it and he could paint it. He knew and loved his craft well. When he was getting on in years and finding it increasingly difficult to get his own paintings accepted by the galleries, he decided to sell some of his home-made Goyas and Canalettos. As it turned out, the art dealers were delighted and completely taken in, despite their expertise. The critics, who knew their subject very thoroughly indeed, were in raptures of praise. Before long, there were Keatings in New York penthouses and Arabian palaces and everywhere between.

For some time everyone was happy. Tom was enjoying the resurgence of his career (even though he couldn't talk about it down the pub), the dealers were making pots of money, and the art-loving public was enjoying beautiful masterpieces. Some of course had been bought as investments, but others simply because people liked what they saw.

Eventually, in the 1970s, Tom gave the game away. I forget whether it was because of disgust over the art market, or whether he had been rumbled. The dealers were furious of course, the critics embarrassed and irritated, and the art investors very nervous. Tom was prosecuted, but the trial was halted because of his ill-health. He refused to say which pictures were his forgeries. (In law they were forgeries because he had put another artist's signature to them). He took the view, I suppose, that they were either 1] good enough to be judged on their own merits next to genuine Rembrandts and Turners, or 2] should otherwise be exposed by the self-proclaimed art experts.

An interesting development is that nowadays Tom's forgeries, "genuine Keatings", (those that have been identified, that is), are highly collectable and fetch high prices. There must be an element of marketeering in this of course, but the bottom line is that people will not spend money on something they don't really like. In fact, so collectable have Keatings become that, ironically, they are themselves now being forged. It needs a real expert to identify a genuine Keating!

This story provides, I hope, a useful analogy to the Bert Lloyd furore. (I say "furore" on the strength of the sheer number of e-mails it has generated. In fact, a clear concensus of opinion has emerged). If "Bert Lloyd" is substituted for "Tom Keating", then the folk song academics are in the position of the art dealers and critics, and we - the singers and club audiences - are the art lovers. Every analogy is somewhat crude of course, and one huge difference here is the absence of money in the business of disseminating songs at one end, and learning and performing them at the other. For "money", try putting in "appreciation of emotional impact, effort to learn". But as an analogy it might help in deciding how you value the "product".

The academics who have invested time and work into English song in general will, understandably, be annoyed at finding some are (in their terms) forgeries. But to those who "bought into" Bertsongs because of their inherent qualities will not be unduly disappointed. To them, the songs are the masterly creation of an artist who was inspired by historical originals. Their response to the songs has not (and should not) change. If there is a changed response on the part of some, we must question why the songs were "bought into" by them in the first place, given that the songs' inherent qualities are exactly the same. That, of course, is an answer only they can give. I hope that, after due consideration, they will decide that what a song means to them is less important than who wrote it.

M'Lud, the case for the defence rests. Until someone objects ...

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:57 PM

JEFF B,well put.Tom Keating had crossed my mind as well.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:48 AM

Tom was one of the first people featured on Channel 4 when it started - a fascinating series, explaining how he made his 'sextons' - as he called them.

An excellent analogy in some ways, as you say, but missing the mark in others (as you say).

I wouldn't personally pillory Lloyd, and I agree that he'd probably do things differently today. As Eliza Cathy has pointed out elsewhere, there was a different philosophy around at that time, and people who 'failed to attribute' their own authorship felt they were doing a good thing - adding to the pool of good 'free-to-use' material, and helping to develop and encourage the tradition.

But it was, we now realise, misguided. And our task is to make sure that everyone understands - so that a new culture of correct attribution can start to flourish.

Pete quite rightly points out that we don't have time when singing live to present a scholarly explanation to every song (well I almost do sometimes and seem to get away with it!) but I do think there should be time for a quick credit - just a name would often suffice.

The more important habit is to try to provide references on CD sleeves and websites.

Tom

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:53 AM

I am sure you have constructed a strong argument Jeff but most of us do not doubt the value of what Bert did as a song writer or arranger.

But as most people have said all through the thread, that really isn't the point. We have clearly been deceived, but that is only a part of the problem.

Almost everybody who ever sang a song, be they 19C source singers giving songs to Sharp, 20C source singers like Jeanie Robertson or revival singers like Martin Carthy - they have all sang songs who's authers were known and they say so.

More competent scholars of folk song will put a better argument than I can but I think it goes something like this:

Folk songs are not just old songs. They are songs that have passed through communities and have been fashioned by the lives of people in those communities. A good example is songs about poaching that were written and passed on after the Inclosures Act. People were transported for taking game the songs tell us about the conflict between the people who took the land and the rural working class who lost it.

I think Bert wanted to show that when people moved from the land to the industrial towns in and after the Industrial Revolution they took their rural songs and re-fashioned them as industrial songs.

Thousands of songs about industrial life were wrtten during the 19C most by individual, known or unknown songwriters, Tommy Armstrong is a good exampl writing songs about the mining industry in the North East.

Most of these songs were not re-fashioned by industrial communities. It looks as if Bert re-fashioned some to make it look as if they had. From our perspective it looks a bit of a waste of time but Bert et al were trying very hard to prove the collective creative ability of the industrial working class so he altered more than a few songs to support that idea.

I don't think I have that quite correct so perhaps others can explain what they thought Bert was up to.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:13 AM

The more important habit is to try to provide references on CD sleeves and websites.

Tom,exactly what I have said on the froots discussion.
both Nutty and I have already said that if LLOYD were alive today he would act differently and that he was a product of the times,in fact,both of us said it long before Eliza got involved in the discussion.
however the material lloyd gave us, is more important [imo]than his passing off of his own compositions as traditional.
In the present day and age no one is going to attempt to do what LLoyd or Roberts did .
in fact most songwriters are more concerned about getting either kudos or financial reward for their compositions.
one of the aspects, Jim Carroll was talking about in another thread,was the disappearance of sharing of music.,and the changes in attitude in the folk revival[please correct me if I am wrong Jim].
Bert LLoyd was generous with his material,his material was very good,and [imo]the tradition and the folk revival benefited.and IMO that outweighs his doubtful scholarship
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:18 AM

he doesnt appear to have been up to anything in skewball,apart from improving the song.
lES,what are you up to.Bert is dead,can we let him rest in peace,and can this thread be let to die.Bert has taken those answers with him to the grave.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Santa
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:02 AM

I still think one point is not being stressed enough. There are songs for which we have a long history in broadsheets, music books, or whatever, and for these we can say what the original was, and how it was changed down the years. For songs without this history, all we know is how it was sung at the time it was collected. We do not know if this was the original song. From the songs that do appear in different collections, we know that they are not always (normally? rarely?) identical. Singers have been changing songs throughout history. In that sense Bert Lloyd was very much a part of the tradition he is being accused (by some) of perverting.

There is a store of recorded folk songs, there for those who care to go looking for them, and the songs live on as the singers change. The collected piece is one slice though the history: not holy gospel as sometimes implied.

One divergent thought has occurred: how much does the modern emphasis on copyright drive the rate of change of these songs? Does the need to produce something different mean that change is much more rapid than in earlier times? Perhaps I'd better raise this in a separate thread, but I'll leave the comment here.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:31 AM

"lES,what are you up to.Bert is dead,can we let him rest in peace,and can this thread be let to die.Bert has taken those answers with him to the grave.Dick Miles"

I guess this is for me Dick?

What am I up to? Good point.

This discussion started on the thread about with about he origins of Do me ama. It would appear that this is mostly Bert. This opened up the whole discussion about what was Bert and what was traditional.

If, as we have many of us tried to say, this was simply about good songs it wouldn't really be a discussion, Bert collected, shared and wrote many.

But Bert was a scholar with a hypothesis to test. I cannot sum up all that has been said. I think this thread has said it all. The points made by all sorts of people like Malcolm Douglass, Brian Perts, Greg Stephens, Phil in Chorlton and about 20 others make the same point: It was dishonest scholarship and Bert was a scholar. Folk song has a history of scholarship - an attempt to understand the songs and the lives of the people who shaped the songs. Bert has at least confused that study and to some extent discredited it.

I guess Bert was an atheist so what resting means is hard to say. As for taking answers to the grave, this thread shows that is not entirely the case.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:56 AM

I pulled back from this thread because I was getting concerned about words like "lies" and "deceit" being bandied around willy-nilly. Malcolm Douglas made the point on the other thread that such accusations shouldn't be made without proper evidence. However, I don't think it's sufficient to try and stifle any discussion by saying (a) "He only did what most other singers do", and (b) "He made a bloody good job of it." The point is that Lloyd literally wrote the book on English traditional song, and those of us who gained much of our early knowledge of this music from 'Folk Song in England' would like to be reassured that the things we've believed for decades are soundly based. I don't want to join any kind of witch hunt of a man that I admire in many ways, but I do think there are questions to be asked and tangled threads to be teased out.

I first became curious about Lloyd's work when I tried to find out more about 'The Cutty Wren', purely because I found it a strange and stirring song and wondered where it had come from. In his earlier writings Lloyd makes much of the performance by a certain shepherd who stamped his foot violently whilst singing it, going on to speculate rather wildly that the song was (here I paraphrase) a relic of medieval protest against baronial oppression, remarking by the by that the tune resembles that of 'Green Bushes'. Actually the shepherd concerned didn't sing it to the 'Green Bushes' tune at all - one wonders how this melody got attached to the song. Interestingly, by the time Lloyd wrote FSIE, he'd thought better of the baronial oppression stuff, and left it out. Perhaps Phil Edwards (above) is right that he was more circumspect that he had been previously when he put FSIE together.

In this context it's also interesting that, in describing 'The Handweaver and the Factory Maid' in FSIE, Lloyd refers to it only as "a broadside from the Oldham district", and makes no mention of Mr. William Oliver of Widnes, whom he told Roy Palmer was the source for the song - or at least the broadside (see Malcom Douglas, above). If my earlier speculation were accurate, and Lloyd was anxious to prove that some kind of oral tradition for industrial broadsides existed, you'd have expected him to have made much of the fact that a man in a North West industrial town sang 'Handweaver' to him in 1951.

Nor does he mention Beckett Whitehead (from whom MacColl had, Jim Carroll reminds us, collected 'Four Loom Weaver' many years previously) in his FSIE discussion of 'The Poor Cotton Weaver'. I realise that merely by stating that such anomalies are curious I am casting aspersions, but "curious" is exactly what they are.

I look forward to the definitive biography.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

It does seem that some contributors to this discussion have not understood the issues involved, and spreading the topic over three simultaneous threads hasn't helped to achieve a constructive focus. To paraphrase what I have said elsewhere:

1. A L Lloyd was a fundamentally important figure in the folksong revival of the 1950s and thereafter, both as a performer and as a scholar.

2. It is unremarkable when revival performers make alterations to material they have learned from others, or from print sources; though it is helpful if they say that they have made changes rather than just characterising their songs as 'traditional', which may mislead. Although there are parallels with the ways in which songs became changed during the course of transmission in the 'old' tradition, revival modifications may be more self-conscious and calculated, and should not be confused with the 'folk process' as it was understood by the song collectors of the first half of the 20th century and before.

3. Scholars, by contrast, are expected to be scrupulously honest about the material they present. To be anything less than frank about their personal editorial interventions is deliberately to deceive, and this is rarely excusable.

4. As both performer and scholar, Lloyd occupied something of a grey area. As a performer, he naturally polished (sometimes completely rewrote) his material; as a scholar, to quote Roy Palmer's words, 'it seems reasonable to suggest that he should have been more forthcoming with details of his editorial interventions'. The trouble is that he often confused the two roles; and, not unnaturally, those who looked to him for material, commentary, and inspiration were also confused and tended to treat it all as gospel.

5. The fact that Lloyd's re-writes were eminently successful from an aesthetic point of view is irrelevant to questions as to their authenticity as 'traditional' songs. Where unavowed, they misrepresent his sources, and have given many people a false picture of the past and of the traditions that he promoted. To argue that none of this matters 'because they are good songs' is to miss the point entirely. It is precisely because they are good songs that they mislead if presented as authentic products of the tradition. I recall 'The Ship in Distress' (as it appeared in The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs) being praised for the lines 'In the blusterous wind and the great dark water' and 'A full-dressed ship like the sun a-glittering' as authentic examples of the poetic genius of the untutored traditional singer of the old times. Bert wrote those lines, but he never let on.

6. Discussion of this kind is not in essence (and should not be allowed to become, as I pointed out in the 'Blackleg Miner' thread) an attack upon its subject; some detailed re-evaluation of the material that Lloyd introduced to the Revival, and his underlying motives is, however, necessary in view of his enormous influence, and in view of the (evidently) wide misunderstanding of its significance. All the earlier prime movers have been the subjects of such re-evaluations, and it is currently the turn of Lloyd, MacColl and Kennedy. It is only through such re-evaluations in the light of new evidence that we can understand what they actually did, and how it has affected our own understanding; and our pre-conceptions.


Re 'Skewball'.

The webpage indicated earlier makes the beginner's mistake of assuming that, because occasionally some of the numbers in Bodleian shelfmarks look like dates, that that is what they are. They are not. The broadside it claims as 'dated 1784' (Harding B 25(1784)) is nothing of the kind, and if the compiler had looked at the next entry he or she would have seen that Harding B 25(1785) is dated 'between 1821 and 1838'; it is just the next in the number sequence.

I can't imagine why Dick thought it necessary to copy-and-paste the entire page here; the bulk of it is irrelevant to this discussion.

As it happens, the Kildare race took place at the Curragh in 1752, when Arthur Mervin's Skewball beat Sir Ralph Gore's grey mare. Gore's bay mare, Sportley (named in the broadside) wasn't involved, though Skewball did beat her in two races in England in July 1747. The incidents were confused or conflated, presumably, by whoever wrote the broadside; quite possibly long after the event. The American 'Stewball' appears to be a separate song on the same subject.

The only substantive comment I can find so far on Bert's 'Skewball' is 'this version is Irish in origin', which tells us very little. In fact it seems only very rarely to have been found in Ireland (Roud lists only one Irish version at present). Whether or not any oral example is known that resembles the Lloyd one I can't say. It might be worth looking into further.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

>> 'In the blusterous wind and the great dark water'
Bert wrote those lines, but he never let on. <<

Oh shit.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:44 AM

At risk of thread drift, is it only I who have noticed some similarity between 'Harding B-6 (54) 00668', as posted by the good Captain, and 'Master McGrath' ?

Or is 'Master McGrath another one which Lloyd, allegedly, "doctored" ?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:44 AM

I can't imagine why Dick thought it necessary to copy-and-paste the entire page here; the bulk of it is irrelevant to this discussion.
in response to phil edwards thread immediately before,to which it is relevant.
secondly, anyone interested in learning, [stewball aka skewbald] to sing,might like to see the alternative versions.
still, I dont suppose that interests the scholars,that someone might want to sing the different versions.
I repeat, Bert did not appear to divulge his motives to anyone now living,so this thread is just idle speculation,which could easily see his doubtful scholarship given too much prominence in relation to his abilty as a performer and his importance in the folk revival.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:10 AM

What are you afraid of Dick?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:20 AM

Dick's post rather illustrates my point. Discussions like this will never get very far while people who have no understanding of the issues involved insist on poking their oar in.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 07:45 AM

I wish I'd said that, Malcolm.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM

I am not afraid of anything.
I also have a very good understanding of the issues involved.
I see Berts importance to the revival as a performer and contributor,more important than his doubtful scholarship.
if anyone on this thread thinks his doubtful scholarship is more
important,please say so.
furthermore no one has been able to say why Bert did what he did ,and neither will they be able to.
that is a secret Bert has taken with him.
the fact of the matter is this discussion will not get far,because it is pure speculation,only one man can answer the question,and he is dead.
Malcolm, why is it necessary to be offensive to those who have adifferent opinion to yourself

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM

Bryn - I think it is just you; Skewball and Master McGrath are both about a four-legged animal unexpectedly winning a race, but I can't see many other similarities.

Brian - I don't want to join any kind of witch hunt of a man that I admire in many ways, but I do think there are questions to be asked and tangled threads to be teased out.

Hear, hear.

I'm puzzled by the Tom Keating analogy, for a number of reasons - I think it's actually too harsh in some ways, as well as being too kind in others. First, Keating was an artist who couldn't make a living from his own work, and turned to producing fake rareties instead. I don't think Bert Lloyd's harshest critics would accuse him of rewriting traditional songs because he couldn't find an audience for original material - so it's a bit odd to see this argument apparently advanced in his defence!

Second, Keating turned out new paintings by Samuel Palmer et al, and put them into circulation as the real thing. Again, I don't think anyone's accused Bert Lloyd of writing songs from scratch - he may have put a lot of time and energy into some of his rewrites, but rewriting is what it was.

Third, and most important, Keating was an artist rather than an art expert. As Brian said, Bert Lloyd wrote the book (literally!) on English folk song; he was in a particularly strong position to certify songs as being the product of folk creativity preserved through oral transmission. (It's as if Tom Keating had been an authority in the field of authenticating Samuel Palmers.) He seems to have abused that position repeatedly.

I like Les's argument, but I don't think it's the whole story - perhaps turning a poem called "Jenny's lament" into a traditional song called The recruited collier makes a point about folk culture in mining communities, but what's the political point of the expanded Skewball, the explicit Long a-growing or Reynardine with the added shining teeth? I think a lot of it was down to giving the people what they want - a good story, well-written, with a point that's not too obscure and mysteries that aren't too baffling, and a good tune to carry it. And that is something he was very good at - it's just a shame Bert Lloyd the perhaps-a-bit-on-the-creative-side folk singer was the same person as Bert Lloyd the collector.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:18 AM

"I see Berts importance to the revival as a performer and contributor,more important than his doubtful scholarship.
if anyone on this thread thinks his doubtful scholarship is more
important,please say so."

It's not one or the other.

"furthermore no one has been able to say why Bert did what he did ,and neither will they be able to."

I think we have a good idea of why Bert did what he did and I tried to describe it above:

"I think Bert wanted to show that when people moved from the land to the industrial towns in and after the Industrial Revolution they took their rural songs and re-fashioned them as industrial songs."

How much evidence existed for this hypothesis?

"that is a secret Bert has taken with him.
the fact of the matter is this discussion will not get far,because it is pure speculation,only one man can answer the question,and he is dead."

I think you over state the case.Much has been written about what Sharp et al were up to 100 years ago and that scholarship has helped us to understand our musical heritage and the people that kept it alive.

Best wishes

Les

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Sue at work
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:19 AM

Just a point of pedantry Phil, but since we're on about accurate scholarship 'Jenny's Lament' ought to read 'Jenny's Complaint'.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

Thanks, Sue. I guess I can't even cover myself by saying I'm at work!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: JeffB
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM

To Phil at work.   Phil, I tried to make it clear that it was just an analogy and did say that its greatest fault as an analogy was that money was the big issue in Keating's case, as opposed to Bertsongs. I wanted to take some of the heat out of this debate (unsuccessfully it seems) by getting a perspective on a case which has some similarities with this one. I tried to emphasis that there is a gulf between "artists" one on side and "academics" on the other. It seems to me that while the "artists" can cross between the two positions, the "academics" cannot easily do so, if at all.

Now get back to work! Your tea-break must be over by now.

To Malcolm Douglas.    Be assured that I for one (and I expect CapnB among others) do understand the issues involved. They are primarily issues of scholarship and provenance. But it seems that you are, to all intents and purposes, unconscious of the other issues (which I have called "inherent qualities" above) which are also of high importance. The relative importance of of these issues is naturally dependent on individual temperament. Can you grasp this first basic point?

Your fifth para above is significant. Your stress is entirely on "traditional" song as historic artefact, and reveals that you do not understand the issues involved from the point of view of the performer. Performance is not about educating an audience in, for instance, the socio-economic conditions affecting urban labourers in the first half of the 19th C. Performance is a little peice of theatre, for which the performer needs and chooses suitable material. If you were ever aware of this basic fact, which informs the essential nature of song, then you appear to have forgotten it.

It seems to me that while you are assiduously classifying, describing, tracing lines of descent, like an obsessive collector pinning down lepidoptera in neat rows onto a board, you are completely unaware that that your specimens are, in many cases, things of beauty. If so, that is entirely your loss, but might explain the curious antipathy you seem to have towards those who place a different kind of importance on your subject-matter.

You gloss over precisely what you mean in saying "giving a false picture of the past and the traditions he promoted". By "false picture of the past", do you intend the extremely narrow sense of the conditions of workers I mentioned above? If so, you need to give an example of how Lloyd misrepresented them. As for "the traditions he promoted", many would say that adapting lyrics to one's personal taste is precisely within the tradition which he, and many another singer before him, promoted. Your tiresome refrain that "he mislead us as to provenance" is beside *my* point. "They mislead if presented as authentic products of the tradition" is meaningless if one accepts, as many do and as no doubt Lloyd did, that the man himself was an authentic product of the tradition.

Perhaps much of this debate boils down to what is meant by "authentic". To you it seems to merely mean "originating at a known point in the past". But then you are an academic. Academics have their uses of course, and on balance we would not be without them. But for those who put life into words on paper, academics are strictly rear echelon.

I could comment further on your disengenuous sixth para, but it is now time for my rusk and cocoa while watching "Countdown". However, I cannot leave your e-mail of 7.20 am on 29/4 without comment. No doubt that was meant to be scathing and offensive towards those, like CapnB and myself, who have the temerity to argue with you. In fact, such remarks do you no credit as an academic and are laughable in their condescension. Academic study is your chosen field and as far as I am aware no-one has challenged you in that. However, you are deeply and foolishly mistaken if you believe that you have some sort of proprietal authority over English song, which has always and will always belong primarily to singers. You would do well to show a little courtesy to fellow enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:21 AM

Dave Arthur, quoted by Steve Winick in his important discussion of "Reynardine":

"One finds in [Lloyd's] manuscripts informants' names crossed out and changed,...and in the case of 'One of the Has Beens,' a very specific note, 'I heard this from a Vaudeville actor in hospital at Cowra, NSW, on New Year's Day,' was changed on publication to 'a teamster from Grenfell sang the song.'"

Arthur adds, somewhat acidly, that a teamster "sounds more 'authentic' than a 'vaudeville actor.'"