Bertsongs? (songs of A. L. 'Bert' Lloyd)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:14 AM

A mischievous spirit then......

Maybe the world of middle class scholasticism was perceived as another front on which to fight the class war. In many ways it was a battle he won.

I would say that his ideas have been immensely influential. He has in fact inspired a generation of songwriters to speak from that'educated working class' promontory through the medium of folksong form. I say 'folksong form' to prevent the usual descent into bickering over what is a folksong!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:12 PM

As Phil points out, Lloyd wasn't trying to get you to listen to his sources, because he never told you truthfully who his sources were. In many cases, the sources he cited were salt-of-the-earth laboring men, who didn't exist outside his imagination. The real sources were professional poets like Anderson, Campbell, Houseman and Hughes--but he never cited them. Lloyd was taking middle-class poetry, assigning it working-class origins, giving the names of nonexistent source singers as his authority that it came from tradition, and using it all to make arguments about the proletarian origins of traditional song.

As for wld's point about American folksingers, scholars generally don't care much what people do on stage in front of audiences--except for scholars of performance, who look at a whole different set of practices. Folksong scholars don't take American folksingers to task for telling tall tales because we don't care what they do in performance. For the same reason, we don't criticize Martin Carthy if he rewrites a song without telling anyone (though he usually tells). And we wouldn't care if Lloyd did it either.

But Lloyd wrote books purporting to be serious histories or studies of vernacular song, like The Singing Englishman and Come All Ye Bold Miners. Because of this, scholars DO care, and we eventually began to check out his sources--once things began to seem fishy. This is only right. Books purporting to be non-fiction ought to contain the facts, and if they contain speculation and invention, it ought to be marked as such.

Finally, Lloyd wasn't, in my opinion, just trying to make a powerful connection with an audience; at least not in some cases. If that was all he was doing, a ploughboy would have worked as well as a collier, and a serving-maid as well as a factory-maid. He changed those details to lend credence to the concept of "industrial folksong," which was still a fairly new idea. It was an attempt to lend credence to a historical theory--and once you begin lying to support your theory, you invite people to believe the theory wasn't viable in the first place (if it had been, you wouldn't have had to lie). This is why it's a scholarly sin to falsify evidence in this manner--it may temporarily bolster your position, but it almost inevitably falls apart and makes you and your theory look foolish in the process.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:53 PM

You'd have a hard time looking at the work of Tom Cook or J.T. Huxtable; they don't seem to have existed outside Bert Lloyd's notes. But yes, I'm sure there was something like that going on; I don't picture Bert Lloyd stroking a white cat and plotting to make life harder for future generations of folk historians!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:31 PM

I thought it might be something like that.

I tell you something that occurred to me. That practice of playing fast and loose with lyrics and beeefing them up to make a powerful connection with an audience is far more prevalent in American folk music. And goes unremarked.

If you think about someone like Derek Brimstone, he had been Rev Gary Davis's roadie and he had bettr insight into the guitar playing than a lot of people who played cleaner versions. His instrumentation was nearer the original - (big Gibson for much of his career) and national steel fingerpicks.

And yet Derek would tell a joke whilst finding the tuning - some completely crazy tale about the song's origins, and the words of say a classic like Candyman would be the cobbled up from the Reverends, Sleepy John's, Donovan's and he'd probably feel free to write a verse of his own. I've seen him do the same with Frank Proffits and Clarence Ashley's banjo songs as well.

And I think Derek probably took this approach from American artists he had seen. people like rambling jack eliot. I seem to recollect seeing quite serious American artists adding a tall tale to spice up presentation.

perhaps AL Lloyd wanted you to look at the artists that he credited with the creation of these songs. Perhaps he saw it as part of his brief and he thought if he pesented it strongly - it had a better chance of surviving than as a fragment.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:10 PM

WLD: both and neither; I came across Bert Lloyd's claims about "The recruited collier" in Anne Briggs's sleevenotes, for instance. As Steve Winick (aka Nerd) says, in some cases a particular claim (or even a particular song) appears in one of Lloyd's more 'popular' books but not in Folk Song in England.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:00 PM

Thank you all for your thorough and interesting replies.

I could have gone to see a discussion Bert was chairing in the 1970's at Birmingham about Whither the Folk Revival?, but by that time I was so royally pissed off with being excluded from the Grey Cock singers list (because I had the wrong influences), I didn't go and make his acqaintance.

I knew all about Lloyd's reputation and achievements, so there was no real excuse for me - just the imapatience of youth. Or maybe the premature onset of middle aged narrowmindedness.

To clarify further though - were these claims made as a precis-ed introduction from the stage? Or were they made in scholarly publications?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:30 PM

So presumably we're not talking about adherence to the historical facts

No, we're not. Take "Spencer the Rover" - presumably it's not a factual account (there aren't any mountains near Rotherham), but that doesn't justify changing the song. If anything, Bert Lloyd could argue that the historical facts were on his side - I'm sure there were colliers recruited to the Napoleonic Wars, and why should the ploughboys get all the songs? For me, at least, it's not about saying "this is how it was" so much as "this is how the song was" - and getting that right (or at least doing my best not to get it wrong) is actually more important than getting the history right.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:34 PM

To clarify, Bert rarely wrote ENTIRELY new songs and passed them off as old. What he did most of the time was to take an old song or an old poem, or several old songs and poems, and cobble lines together. Then he would write a stanza here or there, a line here or there, to fill in the gaps. So Lloyd's "Reynardine" has lines and words from Herbert Hughes, Joseph Campbell, A.E. Housman, and Lloyd himself, in addition to the broadside ballad. In "The Recruited Collier," he started with a poem by Robert Anderson and made his own, fairly drastic, changes.

In both of these cases, Lloyd claimed to have collected the song from someone else: "Reynardine," he said, was sung to him by Tom Cook of Eastbridge, Suffolk, while "The Recruited Collier" was sent to him in manuscript by a Mr. Huxtable of Workington. Neither source was ever located in any records outside Lloyd's own claims, and the purported Huxtable manuscript of "The Recruited Collier" has never surfaced either.

Where ideology came into it was that it seems Lloyd would take songs that were essentially rural (like "Jenny's Complaint" or "The Weaver in Love") and specifically turn them into "industrial folksongs," by changing the protagonists from rural occupations (a ploughboy and a serving-maid) to industrial ones (a collier and a "factory maid.")

He was, at the same time, attempting to argue through his scholarship that "industrial folksong" was a crucial and neglected area for research. It is for this reason that his falsifying such songs was wrong--he was essentially presenting bogus "industrial folksongs" to bolster his argument that there were a lot of industrial folksongs out there waiting to be collected. Whatever one's take on Lloyd as a person or as a singer, I think it's pretty clear this wasn't helpful to future scholars. Since the goal of scholarship is to clarify, not confuse, Lloyd must be seen as a failure AS A SCHOLAR.

As a singer, teacher, friend, revivalist, and loving family man, we can all agree he was a great success.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Ballyholme
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:51 PM

I'd be interested in hearing Burl's opinion on this topic. I know that he knew Bert quite well.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:13 PM

Capatain Birdseye: you explain your motives for singing old songs very eloquenttly, and Like Brian Peters I totally share your attitide. But we are not talking about old songs here. We are discussing the fact that it would seem that Bert Lloyd wrote some completely new songs, and passed them off as old songs. So the picture they give may be be beautiful, but it is a false.He was putting words into the mouths of people long dead and gone.
   I expect, Cap'n, you have in your family certain heirlooms. Pictures, letters,other possessions from those of previous generations? Things like that help to make a portrait of our forebears. Now, wouldn't it annoy you slightly if a letter you were led to believe was written by your great-grandfather in fact turned out to be a 1963 forgery?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:02 PM

"I sing them because they have beautiful melodies...."

Yes, absolutely.

".... and interesting stories...."

Indeed.

"....and becuase they give us an idea of the life of people in former times."

Exactly my point in the last post, Dick.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:53 PM

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters - PM
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:29 PM

>> So presumably we're not talking about adherence to the historical facts, but adherence to the intentions of the original writer of the folksong. <<

I don't think your post was directed towards me, WLD, but let me explain a bit more, using the previous example of the schoolkids and the mill songs.

I could sing them a song I'd written, after proper historical research, that gave them an accurate and quite possibly harrowing account of - say - child labour in cotton mills.

Or, I could sing an old song, telling them: "This is what people at the time were singing about the cotton mills."

[Since singing old songs is what I do most of the time, the latter would be the more likely scenario (and would fit with the ideas I grew up with about the stories old songs can tell us). In which case, in order to be able to look myself in the eye, I would have to be confident that the 'old song' was exactly what I said it was, and not a product of the folk revival post 1950. If it were the latter, no matter how historically accurate the picture it painted, I wouldn't be making an honest presentation.

I'm not suggesting here that Bert Lloyd systematically faked songs about conditions in the mills, just giving you an example of why this kind of thing matters to me.]
we clearly sing old songs for partly different reasons.
I sing them because they have beautiful melodies and interesting stories,and becuase they give us an idea of the life of people in former times,I do not sing them because they are faithful reproductions of that which happened historically.
Why? because history is bunk.
let us take a song about the battle of Trafalgar,who won this war? the French believe they won it, The English believe they were the winners.,
all songs to make them interesting[Or to ease the singing] include poetic licence,they are not necessarily factually accurate,the poetry of the song is more important than factual accuracy[Three Score and Ten,Who cares whether it was February or October]it is the sentiment of the song,that is important.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:29 PM

>> So presumably we're not talking about adherence to the historical facts, but adherence to the intentions of the original writer of the folksong. <<

I don't think your post was directed towards me, WLD, but let me explain a bit more, using the previous example of the schoolkids and the mill songs.

I could sing them a song I'd written, after proper historical research, that gave them an accurate and quite possibly harrowing account of - say - child labour in cotton mills.

Or, I could sing an old song, telling them: "This is what people at the time were singing about the cotton mills."

Since singing old songs is what I do most of the time, the latter would be the more likely scenario (and would fit with the ideas I grew up with about the stories old songs can tell us). In which case, in order to be able to look myself in the eye, I would have to be confident that the 'old song' was exactly what I said it was, and not a product of the folk revival post 1950. If it were the latter, no matter how historically accurate the picture it painted, I wouldn't be making an honest presentation.

I'm not suggesting here that Bert Lloyd systematically faked songs about conditions in the mills, just giving you an example of why this kind of thing matters to me.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:44 AM

I think we all do make allowances for Bert. This is why I find Dick's comments puzzling. In my paper, and in my posts, I'm very careful to say that Bert should be viewed not only in the context of his times, but in the context of the scholarly tradition, and that what he did is actually quite in line with what a lot of other popularizing scholars have done--again, the Brothers Grimm being a good example. The achievements of the Grimms, and of Lloyd, should not be minimized. At the same time, when engaging in scholarship, we need to be careful not to take their claims, or their versions of texts, at face value as a representation of the tradition, because they are are compromised in various ways.

I always do say that Lloyd was and remains enormously important, enormously engaging as a writer, enormously entertaining as a singer. For us scholars, it can actually be fun to try to figure out what Lloyd did and why. Still, I say, we can wish he had been less secretive and downright misleading about his editorial interventions.

So this is what I and many of us other scholars say, taking care to heap praise upon Lloyd before saying anything critical. Our criticisms rarely amount to anything like a scathing attack. Yet no matter how much praise we heap, and no matter how gentle our criticisms, any whiff of critique leads to demands that we "make allowances" for him.

I guess our only recourse is to agree that he is above all criticism, then.

Somehow, I don't think he would have wanted that...

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:04 AM

Tell us about accuracy. Seriously. You obviously have some ideal in mind.

Try and explain your point. Not all of us understand where you are heading with this.

Folksong isn't really journalism. Its nearer an attempt to mythologise. So presumably we're not talking about adherence to the historical facts, but adherence to the intentions of the original writer of the folksong.

Or perhaps I misunderstand you.....?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:44 AM

ok Tom.
Accuracy is important.,but probably imo not as important as his other contributions
I think we should make a few allowances for Bert,in the same way people should for Sharp,Baring Gould etc,that he should be viewed in the context of his times.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:16 AM

Oh come on Dick - I never thought I'd see you say that a desire for accuracy is the same as being over sanctimonious!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:25 AM

by improving the songs,he is telling the story in the most compelling way,he is honouring all the previous song carriers and the dead

TThere are no shining teeth in any of the pre-Lloyd versions of "Reynardine"; there's no collier in the original version of "The recruited collier" (quote: If owre the stibble fields I gang/I think I see him ploughin,/And ev'ry bit o' bread I eat,/It seems o' Jemmy's sowing). These changes sometimes make for a better song - I don't think anyone's ever denied that - but they certainly don't honour the sources.

Les has been asking a very straightforward question: "was this song written by people in its time or made up or seriously changed recently - because that's not the same." You may think the difference doesn't matter - that's up to you (and hopefully there's plenty of room here for all of us). The point is that it is a difference.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:18 AM

seven years,was often the period of time of transportation.
some of the broken token songs,are connected with transportation to Australia.
[But that isn't to say that they are valueless as songs. It really does mean though that when Brian gets in front of that class of kids - he surely has carte blanche to tell these people's story the best and most compelling way he can.

The only way we can dishonour the dead is by making them irrelevant and forgettable].
Isnt this what Bert was doing?.,by improving the songs,he is telling the story in the most compelling way,he is honouring all the previous song carriers and the dead,by making it interesting.
I find all this tut tutting about his scholarship,over sanctimonious.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:24 AM

A further parallel that has occurred to me is this.

They say funerals are not really for the dead, they for those of us who are left. And I think its this way with folksongs.

I have never been in battle, but my Dad was - he served in the Irish Guards, Armoured tank division in the WW2 - through the low countries and Germany. He would never say much about the killing grounds, he said it was incommunicable.

In a way all these songs about Waterloo, the Irish rising of of 1798. and more recently Eric Bogles stuff about WW1. Most of that was written well after the event. It doesn't have much of the smell of fear and homicide.

All these songs are really about people who came later trying to make sense out of nonsense. They're not in a meaningful sense someone sitting down and telling you his story - like say a Chuck Berry song does. Its not first hand - that's surely why we get all this 'seven long years' stuff. What is it? a rhetorical device that the songwriter vaguely remembers from the bible about the seven lean years perhaps.

But that isn't to say that they are valueless as songs. It really does mean though that when Brian gets in front of that class of kids - he surely has carte blanche to tell these people's story the best and most compelling way he can.

The only way we can dishonour the dead is by making them irrelevant and forgettable.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:18 AM

I dunno, but then again I'm still fairly new to the protocol here. Still, in an age when the media can insist that we celebrate 20th and 40th anniversaries of events, pretty much anything with a '0' or even a '5' on the end of it can be the excuse for a Special Commemorative Issue and a documentary on Channel 4.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: pavane
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:02 AM

Why is 200 lucky? I can understand 100, 1000, but 200?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:56 AM

YEEESSSSS!!!!!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:56 AM

>> The primary obligation of the artist is to make the material live. <<

Yes. Because if we lose our audience then it doesn't much matter what the hell we are singing to them.

A little mea culpa: years ago I doctored the final verse of "the Oldham White Hare" (a song which might well have undergone some previous doctoring, incidentally) in order to close it with a mildly anti-blood-sports sentiment. Nobody minded - my audiences probably enjoyed it more because of that, and I came out of it looking proper right-on. Nonetheless, that wasn't really what the song was all about originally. Perhpas I'm more sensitive about this kind of thing having given workshops explaining the history behind the songs, as opposed to doing nothing more that entertain audiences, but I'm not sure I'd want to do that kind of thing any more.

>> The originals will still be there in the library for the historian and researcher <<

By and large, yes. Although this thread has pointed out one or two instances where the 'originals' have proved rather elusive. But the problem is where a general perception takes over (e.g. when a doctored song becomes the standard version, in our little world at least) that it at odds with the actual hisotry.

Did I get the 200 (as if I care, really)?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:58 AM

I cannot imagine that many of us would disagree with what you have written.

But Brian made the point early on - was this song written by people in its time or made up or seriously changed recently - because that's not the same.

Whowill get the lucky 200?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:04 AM

I see once again my right to have an opinion and express it about folk music is challenged on mudcat.

One thing is certain about these songs. The audience is what gives them their power.

Those of us who lived through the height of the recent Irish troubles will remember what a rough ride many Irish singers had in UK clubs - particularly wih republican songs. But I've seen an audience get angry with just the idea of an Irish song after one particularly terrible bomb outrage. Similarly I saw singers stopped from singing Blackleg miner in this area (Nottinghamshire) during the miners strike of the 1980's. History changes and our perspective changes.

If Brian Peters can evoke an interest in folk music and illustrate history to schoolchildren using folksong - that is surely all to the good. We all know what went on in Victorian factories and child labour. This is a great way of getting it over to a receptive audience. If an artist can get a little fizz from any of these old incendiary devices, that's all to the good.

An artist has the right to edit and cut and republish in the most potent way possible to his audience - almost a duty. Call it an obligation. The originals will still be there in the library for the historian and researcher

Look at the different ways folksongs have been sung - John Jacob Niles, Bert Lloyd, Joan Baez, Martin Carthy - and now Brian. The primary obligation of the artist is to make the material live. This is conditioned by his audience, whoever they may be - the minute he stands up to sing. If he ignores them - gets bogged down in other considerations, he will bore people.

If you can't understand this - you can't understand much about the nature of art itself. As Henry Moore used to say about the pebble on the beech that you pick because its shape appeals to you aesthetically, that act of selection and appreciation is the work of art - not the action of the insensate sea on the pebble.

That spark with the audience, that's the dfficult thing to achieve. That is what we must go for - every time. Not some abstract notion of truth, which historians will bicker over, because that is all they can do.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Rowan
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:48 AM

Les in Chorlton asked "I'll leave my comments about how such behaviour allowed others to engage in unwarranted arrogation of "authenticity" for their own purposes for another time."

Rowan, this sounds rather interesting could you describe briefly what you mean?

On 22 April Brian Peters wrote The problem is that, for many of us who love traditional songs and choose to sing them, the fact that they are "The Voice of the People" […] is a part of their appeal. We like to feel, realistically or otherwise, that they may offer some kind of insight as to what life was really like, as seen not by historians but by ordinary folk

This elicited (inter alia) a post from Steve Gardham, who wrote Bert went out on a whaler from Hull and claimed to have learnt a version of the shanty 'Heave away my Johnny' from a seaman off Stoneferry in Hull. The explanation of this example Steve used was given as One verse runs 'Fare ye well, ye Kingston girls, farewell St Andrews Dock'. Nobody from Hull (With the sole exception of one Mike Ramsden)would ever call anybody from Hull 'Kingston'. The only things called Kingston are the stadium, a few local firms and a rugby team, but even they're either Rovers or KR. Kingston stadium is KC. Most people from Hull can't stand the bloody name Kingston. St Andrews dock is a relatively new dock and would only have been built a few years before Bert was sailing out of her on his one trip whaling on a very modern boat. It was the fish dock, now filled in.

This struck a chord with me and, although most of my post addressed Bert's magic, I commented there are people who've made successful careers, in and beyond the folkscene, out of their ability to imitate Bert's apparent authenticity (even when their depth of scholarship extends no further than LP covers), while not similarly imitating his politics.

The next day, because various posters seemed to have not separated the issue of Bert's scholarship authenticity from his artistry I wrote The Trojan Horse concept worked for the Greeks and produced, in their opinion, a great result so it should be no surprise that others should imitate it. I don't think anyone here has any criticism of the quality of Bert's artistry, judged by the results around us; the extent of the criticism is the intent of that artistry. The real bother for me is that others used similar techniques to arrogate "authority" to their background so their presentation of "tradition" would be more readily received.


In Oz we have a person who is greatly respected in the folk scene (both here and internationally) and who, early in his career in Oz, presented himself as having similar "authority" in his background, intending it to enhance his presentation of "tradition" so it would be more readily received. I recalled that Mudcat had already hosted some discussion of this and, as you can see, various esteemed 'catters have sprung to his defence. As one who has known all the protagonists in the 'ballad' discussed there I have great respect for the substantive abilities of all of them.   I gather the ballad was regarded in Victoria as a bit of a hoot, although people who weren't part of the Melbourne scene at the relevant period have taken it more seriously.

Danny got an Honorary Doctorate out of it so "all's well that ends well."

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:53 AM

To people like Dick Miles who say that his sins are outweighed by the good things he did...that's well and good, and I agree. But it's really irrelevant. The great American linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf was never an academic--he was, in fact, a fire safety inspector. It so happens that his papers were great works of linguistic scholarship. But what if they had been deliberately misleading, and set our understanding of language and cognition back years. Would it be logical to argue: "well, maybe, but he saved a lot of lives as a fire safety inspector, so we can't blame him for those bad things he did?" In short, Bert's good effects on the world outweighed his bad ones, but I can still wish he hadn't had the bad effects.
no, because being a fire safety inspector has nothing to do with the tradition or the folk revival,Berts other work[Singing recording] was very important to the folk revival,so his doubtful scholarship has to be seen in relation to his other contributions to the folk revival.
benjamin lee whorf, may have been a great linguisatic scholar,but the was his only contribution.
ALLloyd is a completely different kettle of fish,his contributuions to the folk revival were many faceted.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:45 AM

Thanks, Steve (originally typed 'Serd'!) I like the breadcrumb-trail image - "TRC" is a good example of this. More later, probably.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:56 PM

Richard,

Next week at work I can look further into La Renaudie if you like. From home, I don't have access to a lot of reference tools that I have at work (work is a library...)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:39 PM

I'm sure I read more, some time ago, on La Reynaudie. There was (I think I read) some pretty direct connection to the curious phrase "brought up in Venus train". I also noted, I think ( hope I remember this) that the chateau de la Reynaudie (still I think a wine appelation) was in a mountanous region.

I also vaguely remember something being made of the nature of the melody we use, and evidence of immigration to Sussex.

Now where oh where did I read it?

What I don't think I can rebut is that Lloyd concocted rather than collected at least parts of his version.

But thank you Nerd for your careful and learned explanation. Things like that are the core of what makes the Mudcat such a wonderful place, and help me to remain safe against the idiocies of horse definitioners.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:56 PM

To clarify my post of 7:45, I do not think that Lloyd's reason for changing Reynardine was to create validation for some pre-existing historical hypothesis. I do think this about many of his other songs, however, such as "The Recruited Collier." To get my take on Reynardine, it's best to read that section of paper.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:51 PM

A separate post, for those who are interested:

I pursued all three outlaw leads, La Renaudie, Rinaldo Rinaldini, and Reynoldyn, much further than the final form of the paper would indicate. When it was being published in academic folklore's most august journal, I ran afoul of their rather strict length limit (who knew?) In the end, they were probably right to force me to cut, as the discussions of previous outlaws were all essentially digressions.

In brief:

I don't think the La Renaudie hypothesis is convincing, mainly because there isn't a shred of evidence for it except that someone once noticed the similarity of names--in particular, there are not (to my knowledge) any French songs about him, nor is he a particularly well-known figure. To Richard's "whether the possible mixed fear and joy over female sexual awakening indicates a prior song to which the outlaw, with his rejection of licentiousness, but his succumbing to temptation, came, or whether the outlaw was there first and the inherent contradiction in the sexual theme of the song came later," I can only say "you've lost me completely." I keep trying to read that sentence, but never have any idea by the end what it means!

Rinaldo Rinaldini is, I think, a more probable source, because the novel about him by Christian August Vulpius (what a great surname for this particular discussion!) was very popular in German and in English translation almost exactly when the ballad "The Mountains High" arose. But it's almost too exact--if I recall, the first broadside we can date is the same year as the English translation of Rinaldo. If the song existed at all before that, it would be an impossible influence...besides which, the ballad bears no resemblance I could find to any particular incident in the novel (which I had to soldier through just to find that out!)

Reynoldyn, or Reynold, is, I think, the most likely outlaw source, and I have a separate paper coming out on that connection, very shortly, in a book from the University of Delaware Press. Essentially, this Reynold was a peripheral figure in the Robin Hood tales from before the date of the earliest ballads, and the first recorded form of his name (in 1432) is "Reynoldyn." In a later song, which Child prints in his notes but does not assign a number, "Renold" appears to be the real name of Much the Miller's son (although in the 1432 inscription, they are different outlaws.) However, even though I spun it into a separate paper, I am not truly convinced that there is a connection--I am just presenting it as a possibility.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:45 PM

Possibly, Les!

For those who don't know, Nerd is the mudcat handle for Steve Winick, who wrote the Reynardine article kindly linked in by Brian...so, that's who I am!

On the Reynardine stuff...I din't have an axe to grind, particularly. But to publish in prominent academic journals these days, you need to show why your paper is both novel and theoretically interesting. This is particularly true if you are not yourself a prominent academic-- which I am not really now, and certainly wasn't then.

Novelty is generally not a problem outside academia, but for something to be "theoretically interesting" often amounts to proving a theoretical point. This looks a lot like axe-grinding to non-academics. So a good deal of that impression was probably added to the paper through my need to fill that requirement.

Also, even though many people here on Mudcat were willing to supply instances of Lloyd's "tinkering," what i was saying--that Bert tinkered with songs and didn't admit it sometimes--was still pretty radical in British academic folklore. In fact, one of the anonymous reviewers for the journal said that when he started reading the paper he was sure I was wrong, but was finally convinced by the end. In order to convince such folks, I had go very deeply into each piece of evidence to be sure no stone was unturned--which may feel like overkill to people whose attitude is "ok, I accept that Lloyd did this, but so what!"

My educated guesses on why Bert changed Reynardine, and why he let his changes be accepted as traditional, do appear in the paper, in the section called Negotiating Authenticity: A. L. Lloyd and the Mystery of "Reynardine" The analogy I use is not Tom Keating but The Brothers Grimm--a more directly applicable one, I think. As others have said, Keating wasn't creating the standards by which people evaluated and verified the authenticity of artworks on the one hand, and forging them on the other. If he had been, he would inevitably have put in his books on "how to evaluate Rembrandt's works" ideas which validated his forgeries. In doing that, he would have introduced flaws in the model by which Rembrandt's works were studied.

Lloyd basically was doing this. He was able to condition people to accept his rewritten pieces as genuine--by telling them "people in the industrial revolution felt this way," and then providing the songs which "proved" (and were proved by) his assertions. Interestingly, the effect academics are interested in isn't the creation of new songs, but the creation of theories and standards to validate what are essentially forgeries: THAT's what was damaging to folklore scholarship. People who listened to the revival recordings Lloyd influenced were also reading his books, hoping to be told by an academic folklorist what the songs meant--and they were getting potted theories that only fully held up if you accepted his forgeries as real. As (I think it was) Brian pointed out, this began very early in Lloyd's career, with The Singing Englishman, in which he had a whole theory about the peasants' revolt of the 1380s that included "The Cutty Wren"; at once claiming the song was far older than it probably is, and poorly describing the song's performance so as to make it all seem plausible. By the time of Folk Song In England, no-one would have believed the song was that old, which I think is one reason he left it out.

The people who absorbed all this circular thinking include generations of folklore and ethnomusicology students who studied with Lloyd, as well as revivalists like Brian who treat songs as more than just entertainment. So Lloyd's actions could in theory have had disastrous effects on our understanding of traditional song in England. Luckily he wasn't consistent, or calculating, or deliberate enough to have done that much damage. It wasn't what he was trying to do, after all.

To people like Dick Miles who say that his sins are outweighed by the good things he did...that's well and good, and I agree. But it's really irrelevant. The great American linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf was never an academic--he was, in fact, a fire safety inspector. It so happens that his papers were great works of linguistic scholarship. But what if they had been deliberately misleading, and set our understanding of language and cognition back years. Would it be logical to argue: "well, maybe, but he saved a lot of lives as a fire safety inspector, so we can't blame him for those bad things he did?" In short, Bert's good effects on the world outweighed his bad ones, but I can still wish he hadn't had the bad effects.

In my paper, I try to be balanced here. I really do think Lloyd was a wonderful figure for twentieth-century folksong and folk music. I see his tinkering more as a form of mischievous play than as a crime. In fact, he often left a trail of breadcrumbs to the truth, that people like Dave Arthur and Roy Palmer and Keith Gregson and myself have been able to follow. One could even argue that the discipline has been strengthened through us being kept "on our toes" by Bert, years after he left us!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 08 - 11:59 AM

Is this where we came in?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 May 08 - 11:55 AM

The difficulty with "lost originals" is that one can always imagine some and they always have the characteristics one is looking for!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:24 AM

I saw a single reference to a French outlaw ("la Renaudie"), alongside references to an Italian outlaw ("Rinaldo Rinaldini") and an English outlaw ("Reynoldin"). If I was going to follow up any of those it would be the last one.

On the point about the (lost) progenitor song, all I would say is that I wouldn't expect any song that predated "The mountains high" to be closer to "Reynardine" than it was to "The mountains high". Otherwise you'd have to argue that the oral tradition turned a song seething with unavowed magic and repressed sexuality into a common-or-garden "maiden's warning" number, and that Bert Lloyd saw the diamond in the rough and restored it to its former glory. It's all a bit 'green man' for me (Sedayne, are you there?).

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:52 AM

Did you note that I referred to a (lost) progenitor song and did you note the referenceces in the article to the French outlaw?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:33 AM

Looking at "The mountains high", I can't see any outlaw, with his rejection of licentiousness, but his succumbing to temptation. Before it was embellished by Campbell, Hughes and most of all Lloyd, it seems to have been a straightforward cautionary tale about a girl who's seduced by the charms of a glamorous outlaw. As for mixed fear and joy over female sexual awakening, you can find that mixture in any song that presents loss of virginity as a calamity while also getting entertainment out of it... which is to say, about half the traditional songs in England.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:15 AM

The link to the Reynardine article is working this morning. On reading it, I found I was re-reading it. It is wholly clear from it that there was a song of the general nature circulating at least 100 years before the Lloyd text, and given the divergencies of the cited researched texts, apparently long before that. It is that fact, and the fact that the French court in the 1500s and 1600s was adversely noted for its licentiousness plus the curious similarity to the French rebel's name that combine to cause me to favour the idea of a French history for the tale underlying the song.

However that leads to the question of whether the possible mixed fear and joy over female sexual awakening indicates a prior song to which the outlaw, with his rejection of licentiousness, but his succumbing to temptation, came, or whether the outlaw was there first and the inherent contradiction in the sexual theme of the song came later.

I also note that the article seems to have an axe to grind, certainly in its earlier parts.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:10 AM

"I'll leave my comments about how such behaviour allowed others to engage in unwarranted arrogation of "authenticity" for their own purposes for another time."

Rowan, this sounds rather interesting could you describe briefly what you mean?

Boom, boom!
Les

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Rowan
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:17 AM

The Broadside tradition is clearly interrelated to the cannon of songs collected from source singers

A nice image, Les, much more evocative than using "canon".

Dave Arthur, quoted by Steve Winick in his important discussion of "Reynardine":

"One finds in [Lloyd's] manuscripts informants' names crossed out and changed,...and in the case of 'One of the Has Beens,' a very specific note, 'I heard this from a Vaudeville actor in hospital at Cowra, NSW, on New Year's Day,' was changed on publication to 'a teamster from Grenfell sang the song.'"

Arthur adds, somewhat acidly, that a teamster "sounds more 'authentic' than a 'vaudeville actor.'"

Thanks, Lighter. This was the Australian component of Bert's scholarship that I was trying to recall.

While the English tradition is one I can trace my ancestry to (thus allowing me some "right" to shove my oar in, so to speak) I thought I'd leave most of the debate about his effects on scholarship to those who figured their connection to the tradition was closer and allowing more pungent comment. Where Bert's scholarship can be described as "dodgy" and is applicable to my current context I feel justified in saying that, while it's a great song and I'm pleased Bert made it available to us all I'm peeved, as a performer, educator and scholar, that he fudged its provenance, no matter what his motives.

I'll leave my comments about how such behaviour allowed others to engage in unwarranted arrogation of "authenticity" for their own purposes for another time.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:43 PM

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

In America, the Stewball ballad was "...most popular in the Negro south, where the winning horse is known variously as 'Stewball' or 'Kimball," and was apparently one of the chain-gang songs. The song was recorded by Leadbelly in 1940 (cd available via the Smithsonian Museum), by Joan Baez (album title Joan Baez/5), by Peter Paul and Mary, and a number of successive artists.

There is a closely-related American song, called Molly and Tenbrooks (also Run, Molly, Run; Old Tim Brooks; Tim Brooks; The Race Horse Song), which celebrates the famous east-west four-mile Kentucky match between the California mare Mollie McCarty and the great Kentucky racehorse Ten Broeck in 1878.

There are several versions of the Molly/Ten Broeck saga, as well, and Folklorist D.K. Wilgus believed there was a connection between the Skewball ballad and that of Molly and "Tenbrooks." In the real race, which Ten Broeck won, Mollie was distanced in the first (and final) heat, an incident seen in the Baez version of Stewball.   
Up until the 19th century, broadsides were the most inexpensive means of disseminating information in Great Britain, the earliest dating to the sixteenth century. Popular songs printed on a single side of a sheet of paper sold for a penny or less, and treated a broad variety of subjects, from the political to biblical, from medieval romance and very old ballads to contemporary events treated in a satirical vein. The ballad broadsides were often set to already familiar tunes. They were frequently illustrated with woodcuts.

The Bodleian Library of the University of Oxford has a substantial collection of over 25,000 items, in named collections which have been donated over the past 300 years. Among these are a collection bequeathed to the University in 1975 from Walter N.H. Harding, and within the 15,000 broadside ballads in this collection are several versions of Skewball. To see images and actual appearance of the original broadsides, and the thousands more in the Bodleian collection, all organized in a very useful on-line database (search for ("Skewball"), please visit the Bodleian Library Broadsides Ballad collection.

   


Some recordings of this song in various versions include: "Timbrooks and Molly" (Warde Ford, The Hole in the Wall (AFS 4210A1, 1939, AMMEN/Cowell); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (Bill Monroe & His Blue Grass Boys (Columbia 20612, 1949); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (Sonny Osborne (Kentucky 605, n.d.); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (The Stanley Brothers (Rich-R-Tone 418, 1948). The versions were noted by Wilgus in Kentucky Folklore Record V. II, No. 3; Vol. II, No. 4.

Below are two of the five versions of Skewball from the Bodleian ballad broadsides; the one on the right is dated 1784, the one on the left undated, but it appears to be the older of the two. To show how lyrics change over time, the Steeleye Span version of Skewball (from Ten Man Mop or Mr. Reservoir Butler Rides Again, available on cd from Shanachie Records Corp. (� 1989)) and the version (Stewball) sung by Joan Baez on the album Joan Baez/5 (Vanguard: VSD-79160), the latter set to a tune by the Greenbriar Boys. Beneath those are different versions of the saga of Mollie McCarty and Ten Broeck, where Skewball/Stewball starts making an appearance.

Skewball (Harding B-6 (54) 00668)

You Gentlemen Sportsmen I pray listen all
I'll sing you a song in the praise of Skewball
And how they came over you shall understand
By one Squire Irvine the Mell of [of] our land.
500 bright guineas on the plains of Kildare
I'll bet upon, Sportsmen, that bonny-grey mare
Skewball hearing the wager, the wager was laid
He said loving master, its don't be afraid.
For on my side thou'st laid thousands of pounds
I'll rig in thy castle a fine mass of gold.
Squire Irvine he smiled, and thus he did say,
You gentlemen-sportsmen to-morrow's the day
Your saddles and bridles, and horses prepare,
For we will away th [to] the plains of Kildare.
The day being come, & the horses bro't out,
Squire Irvine he order'd his rider to mount.
All the people then went to see them go round
They swore in their hearts that they ne'er
touch'd the ground.
And as they were riding this was the discourse
The grey mare will never touch this horse.
O, loving kind rider come tell unto me,
How far is the grey mare behind you said he...
O loving master you bear a great smile,
Grey mare is behind me a large English mile
For in this country I was ne'er seen before
Thou hast won the race & broken lord Gore.
Skewball (Harding B-25 1784 10198)

Ye gentlemen sportsmen I pray listen all,
And I'll sing you a song in praise of skewball,
And how he came over you shall understand,
It was esquire Mirvin a peer of our land.
And of his late actions is I have heard before,
And how he was challenged by one Sir Raph Gore,
For five hundred guines on the plains of kilder,
To run with Miss Sportsly that charming grey mare.
Skewball then he hearing the wager was laid,
He to his kind master said be not afraid.
For I on my side you thousands will hold,
I'll lay on your castle a fine mass of gold.
The time being come and the cattle led out,
The people came flocking from east, west, and south,
To beat all the Sportsmen I vow and declare,
They'd enter their money all on the grey mare.
Squire Mirvin he smiled and thus he did say,
Come gentlemen sportsmen that's money to lay.
All you that's got hundreds I will hold you all,
For I will lay thousands on famous Skewball.
Squire Mirvin he smiled, and thus he did say,
Ye gentlemen sportsmen to morrow's the day,
Your horses and saddles and bridles prepare,
For we must away to the plains of kildar.
The time being come and the cattle walk'd out,
Squire Mirvin he order'd his rider to mount,
With all the spectators to clear the way,
The time being come not a moment delay,
These cattle were mounted away they fly,
Skewball like an arrow past Miss Sportsly did fly,
And the people stept up for to see them go round,
They swore in their hearts he ne'er touch the ground.
And as they were just in the midst of their sport,
squire Mirvin* to his rider begun this discourse,
O loving kind rider come tell unto me,
How far is Miss Sportsly this moment from thee.
O loving kind master you bear a great style
The Grey Mare is behind me a full English mile,
If the saddle maintains as I warrent you there
We ne'er shall be beat on the plains of Kildar.
And as they were running past the distance chair,
the gentlemen cry'd Skewball never fear,
Although in this country thou wast never seen before,
Thou beating Miss Sportsly has broke Sir Ralph Gore.

*Corrected the next year to: Skewball to his rider began this discourse

Skewball (Steeleye Span)

You gallant sportsmen all, come listen to my story
It's of the bold Skewball, that noble racing pony
Arthur Marvel was the man that brought bold Skewball over
He's the diamond of the land and he rolls about in clover

The horses were brought out with saddle, whip and bridle
And the gentlemen did shout when they saw the noble riders
And some did shout hurray, the air was thick with curses
And on the grey Griselda the sportsmen laid their purses

The trumpet it did sound, they shot off like an arrow
They scarcely touched the ground for the going it was narrow
Then Griselda passed him by and the gentlemen did holler
The grey will win the day and Skewball he will follow

Then halfway round the course up spoke the noble rider
I fear we must fall back for she's going like a tyger.
Up spoke the noble horse, ride on my noble master
For we're half way round the course and now we'll see who's faster

And when they did discourse, bold Skewball flew like lightning
They chased around the course and the grey mare she was taken
Ride on my noble lord, for the good two hundred guineas
The saddle shall be of gold when we pick up our winnings

Past the winning post bold Skewball proved quite handy
And horse and rider both ordered sherry, wine and brandy
And then they drank a health unto Miss Griselda
And all that lost their money on the sporting plains of Kildare   Stewball (Joan Baez/5)

Stewball was a good horse
He wore a high head,
And the mane on his foretop
Was as fine as silk thread.

I rode him in England,
I rode him in Spain,
And I never did lose, boys,
I always did gain.

So come all you gamblers,
Wherever you are,
And don't bet your money
On that little gray mare.

Most likely she'll stumble,
Most likely she'll fall,
But you never will lose, boys,
On my noble Stewball.

As they were a-ridin'
'Bout halfway around,
That gray mare she stumbled
And fell on the ground.

And away out yonder,
Ahead of them all,
Came a prancin' an' dancin'
My noble Stewball.

Stewball: A Version
Source: Fiddle Players' Discussion List, Meghan Merker

Way out in California
Where Stewball was born
All the jockeys said old Stewball
Lord, he blew there in a storm

CHORUS: Bet on Stewball and you might win, win, win
Bet on Stewball and you might win

All the jockeys in the country
Say he blew there in a storm
All the women in the country
Say he never was known

When the horses were saddled
And the word was given: Go
Old Stewball he shot out
Like an arrow from a bow

The old folks they hollered
The young folks they bawled
The children said look, look
At that no good Stewball   Stewball: Another Version
Source: Fiddle Players' Discussion List, Meghan Merker

There's a big race (uh-huh), down in Dallas (uh-huh)
Don't you wish you (...) were there? (...)
you would bet your ( ) bottom dollar ( )
On that iron ( ) grey mare ( )
Bet on Stewball & you might win, win, win
Bet on Stewball & you might win!

Way out / in California / when old Stewball / was born
All the jockeys / in the nation / said he blew there / in a storm

Now the value / of his harness / has never / been told
His sadlle / pure silver / & his bridle / solid gold

Old Stewball / was a racehorse / Old Molly / was too
Old Molly / she stumbled / Old Stewball / he flew

Run Molly Run
Source: Kingston Trio ("Goin Places")

Chorus: Run Molly, run (oh, Molly). Run Molly, run.
Long John's gonna beat you, beneath the shinin' sun.

Long John was the youngest horse and Molly was the old.
Molly was an old grey mare and he was a stallion bold,
oh, Lordy, he was a stallion bold.

Long John said to Molly, "You're runnin' your last race
'Cause when I turn my head around I'm gonna see your face,
old gal, I'm gonna see your face."

Molly said to Long John, "Don't take me for a fool.
If you didn't cut your ears and tail, I'd think you were a mule
(Yeah!) I'd think you were a mule."

Long John, he got mad, oh, Lord, and shook his wooly mane.
"Last time that I run, old girl, I beat the Memphis train.
I beat the Memphis train."

Chorus

See them waitin' on the track. The man, he hollered, "Go!"
Long John runnin' fast, Lord, Molly runnin' slow.
Molly runnin' slow.

Long John said to Molly, "Take a last look at the sky.
'Cause baby when I pass you by, my dust's gonna blind your eye,
oh, Lord, my dust's gonna blind your eye."

Run, Molly, run. Look out for the turn,
oh, Lordy, Lordy, here she comes!

Long John beatin' Molly. Wait, what do I see?
Molly passin' Long John. Molly runnin' free,
oh, Lordy, Molly runnin' free.

Run Molly, run (oh Molly). Run Molly, run.
Put old Long John out to stud and let old Molly run!   Molly and Tenbrooks
Source: Steve Gillette and Linda Albertano, Cherry Lane Music, 1967

Tenbrooks was a bay horse, had a long, shaggy mane
Rode all around Memphis, beat the big Memphis train.
Run, Tenbrooks, run, if you don't run
Molly gonna beat you to the bright shinin' sun.

The women were weepin', their babes cryin' too.
The nine proud horses came thunderin' through.
With molly the leader, her head tossin' high.
With Molly the leader, with Tenbrooks behind,
She came flyin' by.

We shouted to Kuyper, you're not ridin' right.
Molly is a beatin' Tembrooks out of sight.
Kuyper, oh Kuyper, Kuyper my son,
Give him the bridle, let Tenbrooks run.

Tenbrooks looked at Molly, your face is so red.
Been runnin in the hot sun with a feverish head.
You're fallin' behind me, I'm out here all alone
Molly says to Tenbrooks, I'm leavin' this world
I'm a goin' on home.

Oh, run fetch old Tenbrooks and tie him in the shade.
They're buryin' Molly in a coffin ready made.
Out in California Molly done as she pleased,
Back in Kentucky, got beat with all ease,
Got beat with all ease.


A Related, Possibly Older Version
Source: "E.L."

chorus:
Run Molly, run
Run Molly, run
Tembruck gonna beat you
Bright shinin'sun.
Bright shinin' sun, oh lordy, bright shinin' sun.

They ran the Kentucky Derby on the 24th of May,
Some bet on Tembruck, some on Molly Day.
Some on Molly Day, oh lordy, some on Molly Day.

chorus

Piper, oh Piper, you're not runnin' right
Molly's beatin' Tembruck way out of sight.
Way out of sight, oh lordy,way out of sight.

chorus

Piper, oh Piper, oh Piper my son
Let old Tembruck have his head,let old Tembruck run.
Let old Tembruck run, oh lordy, let old Tembruck run







Skewball was a Racehorse The Ballads Was Skewball a Skewbald?






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with respect LLoyds[steeleyespan

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:38 PM

RE: Skewball

"In fact it seems only very rarely to have been found in Ireland (Roud lists only one Irish version at present)."

This may not be the best place to bring this up, but I also have believed that Skewball was an Irish song. I was fairly certain I read something to that affect on this site, and upon looking through some threads I found these comments (below lyrics) by Bruce Olson.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Brian & Shimrod, where to look? The web's not a lot of use unless you want the tradition of fantasy role playing (!)...but there are a number of academic libraries that list acquisitions on the subject, including UCL, Cardiff, & LSE (of all places), and a good social anthropology department could be a likely starting point if you really are wanting to research it further. My own brief contact with the subject began with A - level latin and that was along time ago to be quoting sources, but the werefox reference stuck in the mind and now that you've asked the question, I will try to dredge up more. I wasn't suggesting that it had formed the subject for song, though it might well have done, only that it existed.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:07 PM

PS. Steve Winick's paper is not there. I'd like to read it but must kip as some loony has had the idea of dancing the sun up at 0532 tomorrow morning at Bluebell Hill.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:05 PM

My late wife Jacqui who was in "the soup" at the time (I wasn't) used to say that Bert Lloyd's principal interest in her music was the hope of getting into her pants.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

"MacColl seems to have rubbed a few people up the wrong way, whereas everyone who met Lloyd seems to have liked him very much. Hence any criticism of the man seems painful, as he was obviously an amiable and helpful chap."

Nothing's ever simple, is it? I had exactly the opposite experiemce. On the occasions that I met MacColl he was always open and friendly, listened to what I had to say and answered my questions. On the other hand I found Lloyd rather aloof and difficult to get into conversation with, and I had one bruising encounter with him in which all I did was politely ask him to sign my copy of 'Folk Song in England'. I only mention this because the quote above now appears to be the 'standard line' on two remarkable men.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

I think at least one of Les's original questions has been answered:

There is clearly a growing number of songs that owe much more to Bert Lloyd than to the people he claimed to collect them from.
...

Two questions:

1. How long is the Bertsong list
2. How much does it matter?

If nothing else, over the last week we've established that:

a) there are some people for whom it matters a lot;
b) there are some people for whom it doesn't matter at all;
and
c) there are some people in each group who hold uncomplimentary opinions about people in the other group.

Perhaps - in the interests of not exposing people to arguments they don't like - this discussion could be continued on a thread called, say, Bertsongs (For Those Who Think It Matters)?

Something I was looking at today, for reasons unconnected with Bert Lloyd, reminded me of this thread (and why I do think it matters). On the Copper family Web site you can find the family's own version of "Spencer the Rover"; you can also find the version Bob Copper collected from a man called Jim Barrett in a pub in 1954. A look at the Bodleian's Web site will find you several broadside copies of "Spencer the [young] rover", printed around a hundred years earlier. They're not identical - there are differences in wording and word order; the Coppers' version is all in the third person, Barrett's is all first-person, and the broadsides are inconsistent. They're not identical, but they're very, very close; they're obviously variants on a common source, and variants that haven't diverged very far.

So: here's a song preserved by the Copper family and collected by Bob Copper in 1954 - and if you look at these mid-Victorian broadsides, you see the same song. For me there's something wonderful about that. If you can write a song you're a songwriter - it's a good thing to be, but there's no shortage of them. If you can collect a song, pass a song along and keep it alive - that's a much rarer honour, and the two shouldn't be confused.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:36 AM

Steve Winick's paper on 'Reynardine' can be found here:
Reynardine

No offence JeffB, but I did want to point out that it's not just academics who are bothered about this sort of thing.