Bertsongs? (songs of A. L. 'Bert' Lloyd)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:07 PM

"Performance is not about educating an audience"

I think we have all attended performances in which the performer clearly felt performance IS about educating an audience. In fact, on this forum, whenever the subject comes up of whether to alter potentially-offensive lyrics, there are always a number of contributors who insist that the songs should be left unchanged for what can only be called pedagogical reasons.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:13 PM

Jeff,

"Be assured that I for one (and I expect CapnB among others) do understand the issues involved. They are primarily issues of scholarship and provenance."

I started this thread for these reasons of scholarship and provenance.


"you are completely unaware that that your specimens are, in many cases, things of beauty"

No we are not and we have endlessly said so.

" "They mislead if presented as authentic products of the tradition" is meaningless if one accepts, as many do and as no doubt Lloyd did,that the man himself was an authentic product of the tradition."

He was probably unique, of great value and interest and part of the second folk song revival not a source singer from the 19C.

"You would do well to show a little courtesy to fellow enthusiasts.

Jeff most people have but please read your last post. Pots and kettles mate.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

I tried to emphasis that there is a gulf between "artists" one on side and "academics" on the other.

Unfortunately for this theory, I'm a singer; I've never even read Classic English Folk Songs (sorry, Malcolm - maybe next birthday).

I did "Reynardine" once, with a couple of changes of my own to bring it closer to "The mountains high". I introduced it by saying that it was a song Bert Lloyd had messed around a bit, and I'd messed it around some more. When I said that, somebody booed. For a lot of people, to say you got a song from Bert Lloyd is a guarantee of authenticity.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:15 PM

JeffB:
I'm a singer, too. I don't need to be reminded that many of the old songs I sing are things of beauty, nor educated on the nature of performance. I just want to know, when I stand up and introduce a piece as "an old song", that it actually is - substantially at least. Otherwise, the whole thing is a hollow sham. I've lost count of the singers I've heard introduce 'Reynardine' as a relic of some ancient superstition about 'were-foxes'. It ain't true!

Whether or not we accept Bert Lloyd as "an authentic product of the tradition" (and like Les, I think there's a bit of a difference between him and, say, Harry Cox), the fact is that his influence over the course and repertoire of the English folk revival from the 1950s onwards was unique (the contribution of MacColl notwithstanding), and on that ground alone his methods and legacy are deserving of scrutiny.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM

There's another issue that should be brought to the surface.

What proportion of our best traditional songs owe their current excellence mainly to the efforts of a few sophisticated rewriters and editors? We don't yet know the answer to that question, but unfortunately it's worth thinking about.

Almost certainly a relatively few writers (several dozen perhaps?) are behind most of the 19th C. broadsides that entered tradition. But those songs have been subject to continual later influences, including the adaptation to (and of) melodies. Modern rewrites tend strongly to be preserved "as is" simply because they're so good already.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:15 PM

Almost certainly a relatively few writers (several dozen perhaps?)

Really? Evidence please

cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:56 PM

Actually Brian, there is an English tradition of werefoxes, just as there is a Greek (and Romany) tradition of werecats. Shape shifters are not that unusual in folklore.
What tickles me enormously about all this is that I remember going to one club in the sixties where the elders were ranged at the back sucking their dentures over what was traditional(!), revering the works of Messrs Miller and Lloyd, and setting themselves up in the process as the fons et origo of all things folk in the immediate vicinity. There have been numerous examples of bad scholars making a half-decent living out of folk music, largely on account of the rest of us simply not having the time, wit or academic rigour to put them in their places (or maybe we just can't be arsed). Some are charlatans, some thought they were something they weren't ( and in some cases still do), and I suspect many were simply posessed of more enthusiasm than skill.

Kipling had it about right in "When 'Omer Smote 'is Bloomin' Lyre" -"We knew 'e stole, 'e knew we knew...but kept it quiet, same as you".

Academically, it is important - probably vital. Perhaps Mudcat is akin to peer review, so nobody can complain if it gets a bit harsh; that's how it works provided we can retain some common politeness. For the rest, Domeama for one is too good a song to let slip, and perhaps what is really getting up our noses is that every last one of us has been taken in to some extent at some time.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:39 PM

Merely a reasonable inference, Les. The number of broadside printers was limited and they frequently stole songs from one another. Surely the shop owners would not hire more songwriters than they could afford to pay, and anyone who could write one suficiently good broadside text was likely capable of writing another and another and another. Some of the likeliest writers might be the printers and publishers themselves, not to mention their spouses.

My estimate of "several dozen" (which could mean 100 or 150 or more) was intended to provoke, not stifle, thought about the matter. Our usual assumption seems to be that "common folk" all over the British Isles were constantly creating new texts; perhaps they were, but only a finite number of original songs made between, say, 1800 and 1900 became truly "traditional." A very large number of independently
inspired amateurs writing one or two texts each would not, I think, be necessary to account for all of the superior texts. (And I'm speaking only of texts, not tunes.)

Part (and only part) of the reason that the style of the broadsides is so conventional may be that not many people were behind them.

I'm not claiming any special wisdom here, just raising some possibilities that need to be addressed, if they have not been already.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:11 AM

I've actually often found myself ruminating along these lines, but with no evidence at all, just 'songwriter's hunch'. I'd be fascinated to know if anyone's ever researched this theory. Tom

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:42 AM

Sorry Lighter, I miss-read your post.

"but unfortunately it's worth thinking about."

Not unfortunate at all. The Broadside tradition is clearly interrelated to the cannon of songs collected from source singers at the end of the 19C. I read somewhere, sorry I cannot remember where, that many of the songs collected in the 19C appeared first as Broadsides in the 18C or earlier.

I was just hopping we could come to some concensus about Bert and I think we probably have but it still needs somebody to sum it up.

As for who wrote Broadsides and what happened to the songs and the writers that really is another story that is well worth digging into.

Best of luck I think you have a job for life

Les

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: pavane
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM

You can find broadside examples of the majority of "folk" songs. And in some cases the author is known. My Johnny was a Shoemaker, written 1859, is one example. The American composer, and his wife who was a singer, toured Europe in the 1860's, which is no doubt how the song came to be collected from the oral tradition. But did he base it on an older song? Who knows?

The folk song collectors just collected those that were remembered.
But no-one knows where the songs originated, and it is clear that the broadsides were often just existing songs written down (as shown by the numerous variants) and probably edited in many cases to provide a moral or a happy ending.

Nic Jones was one of the revival singers who used broadsides which he had discovered to great effect. But he did provide this information.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: nutty
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:37 AM

Broadsides developed in many ways with publishers, printers. singers and sellers all responsible for making changes.

They were all in the business of making money and providing material that could be sold .. Songs were changed or adapted to cater for the preferences of the region and the client.

This is why you will get the same song printed in different ways in different areas and where the oral tradition played as much a part in developing songs in the past, as it does today.

I have always believed that there is no such thing as a definitive version of a folk song unless you have proof of its originator.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:37 AM

Academically, it is important - probably vital. Perhaps Mudcat is akin to peer review, so nobody can complain if it gets a bit harsh; that's how it works provided we can retain some common politeness. For the rest, Domeama for one is too good a song to let slip, and perhaps what is really getting up our noses is that every last one of us has been taken in to some extent at some time.[quote from theVulgarBoatman]
no,once you start using this criteria[a song is agood song] for singing, ignore categorisation,it doesnt matter whether Do Me Amma was traditional or not.,neither does it matter that we have been fooled.
It matters to scholars,but it is not a reason for not singing the song.
was Do me amma entirely a lloyd composition,or a part composition?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:29 AM

"Actually Brian, there is an English tradition of werefoxes, ..."

I'd like to know more about that, TVB - where can I look it up?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:47 AM

This is all interesting stuff. The re-evaluation of Lloyd and MacColl's legacies is certainly valid, but one distinction seems important to me: MacColl seems to have rubbed a few people up the wrong way, whereas everyone who met Lloyd seems to have liked him very much. Hence any criticism of the man seems painful, as he was obviously an amiable and helpful chap.

Was it thanks to Lloyd that folk song LPs tended to include detailed liner notes, giving song provenance details? He seems to have been responsible for a lot of the Topic sleeve notes, and I'm very grateful that this approach became the norm.

I have sometimes wondered, though, reading through some of his comments, if he occasionally embellished some of the information on the sleevenotes. I don't have examples to hand, and I may be entirely wrong, but I remember one or two 'facts' about songs that seemed highly speculative to me.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:49 AM

'The Book of Werewolves' by Sabine Baring-Gould (yep, him).

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:50 AM

I was going to ask whether this thread - warts and all - might be conflated with other threads about Bert Lloyd, but then it occurs to me that doing so might cause more problems than might be solved.

I have posted in one of the other threads to the effect that, purely for me, I am not arsed whether a song which I might have sung (in the days when I could sing) has, or has not, been "doctored" ;

nor am I arsed to learn the identity of the person who might have "doctored" said song.

Incidentally, I loved that image of the "folk old gits, sucking their dentures . . . and setting themselves up as the fons et origo of all things folk". There is many the true word spoken in jest . . .

It is, I think, at least arguable that without the alleged "doings" of Ewan McColl and in particular Bert Lloyd, we might still be singing the Clancys' (Clancies ?) recorded canon.

It was the likes of Bert Lloyd who showed me that "folk music" wasn't just 'The Banks of the Ohio' and 'Bould O'Donoghue'.

Please, please do not construe the foregoing as criticism of those who are concerned whether a song has been "doctored", and if so, by whom. Speaking purely for myself, it makes no never mind to me,

if I like the song under consideration.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:53 AM

"Actually Brian, there is an English tradition of werefoxes, ..."

I'd like to know more about it, too but, assuming you're correct, it still ain't true that people in 19th century England were singing folksongs about it.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:09 AM

Perhaps I should revive a Reynardine thread to say this, but first I am persuaded by the theory that the narrative is an import about the early french brigand, and second I harbour an idea that its resonance to Victorian times lies in its possible reference to the budding of female sexuality. There was both in and before Victorian times a fear of the possibility that men have a largely fixed (and worsening) tumescence-detumescence time, whereas female sexuality may be insatiable: this couples to the fear of vagina dentata, the symbol of castration through sex, to which the "teeth" line (if it is not a contemprary addition) might allude.

IMHO the source of a folk song is the basis of its meaning, and it is well to know (say) that the tune we usually sing to the Lykewake Dirge is actually a Victorian neologism (as IMHO is the Prince Albert verse in "the Deserter" (aka "Radcliffe Highway")

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: JeffB
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:10 AM

To Les in Chorlton and Brian Peters.

My apologies if you were offended in any way by my post, but please be assured that those remarks were not directed at either of you.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: pavane
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:16 AM

I am not so sure. There are broadsides of Reynardine and The Mountains High, going back to around 1814. The name of the 'rake' in all the songs seems to be consistent with a more or less corrupted form of Reynardine

(examples Randal Rine, Roynel Doine, Randal Rhine, Rynordine).

It is surely likely that a fox is involved somewhere.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:44 AM

Absolutely no offense taken Jeff, in fact I think you have opened up a whole new area for investigation.

I see you writing learned books and giving workshops at Whitby! Best of luck

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:10 AM

Pavane - isn't it just as likely that those variants are more or less corupted forms of "Reynoldin" or "Randall Ryan"? And, in answer to Richard, the teeth do appear to have been added by Bert Lloyd. I think some shirts are being sewn onto buttons here.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:36 AM

Steve Winick's paper on 'Reynardine' can be found here:
Reynardine

No offence JeffB, but I did want to point out that it's not just academics who are bothered about this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

I think at least one of Les's original questions has been answered:

There is clearly a growing number of songs that owe much more to Bert Lloyd than to the people he claimed to collect them from.
...

Two questions:

1. How long is the Bertsong list
2. How much does it matter?

If nothing else, over the last week we've established that:

a) there are some people for whom it matters a lot;
b) there are some people for whom it doesn't matter at all;
and
c) there are some people in each group who hold uncomplimentary opinions about people in the other group.

Perhaps - in the interests of not exposing people to arguments they don't like - this discussion could be continued on a thread called, say, Bertsongs (For Those Who Think It Matters)?

Something I was looking at today, for reasons unconnected with Bert Lloyd, reminded me of this thread (and why I do think it matters). On the Copper family Web site you can find the family's own version of "Spencer the Rover"; you can also find the version Bob Copper collected from a man called Jim Barrett in a pub in 1954. A look at the Bodleian's Web site will find you several broadside copies of "Spencer the [young] rover", printed around a hundred years earlier. They're not identical - there are differences in wording and word order; the Coppers' version is all in the third person, Barrett's is all first-person, and the broadsides are inconsistent. They're not identical, but they're very, very close; they're obviously variants on a common source, and variants that haven't diverged very far.

So: here's a song preserved by the Copper family and collected by Bob Copper in 1954 - and if you look at these mid-Victorian broadsides, you see the same song. For me there's something wonderful about that. If you can write a song you're a songwriter - it's a good thing to be, but there's no shortage of them. If you can collect a song, pass a song along and keep it alive - that's a much rarer honour, and the two shouldn't be confused.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

"MacColl seems to have rubbed a few people up the wrong way, whereas everyone who met Lloyd seems to have liked him very much. Hence any criticism of the man seems painful, as he was obviously an amiable and helpful chap."

Nothing's ever simple, is it? I had exactly the opposite experiemce. On the occasions that I met MacColl he was always open and friendly, listened to what I had to say and answered my questions. On the other hand I found Lloyd rather aloof and difficult to get into conversation with, and I had one bruising encounter with him in which all I did was politely ask him to sign my copy of 'Folk Song in England'. I only mention this because the quote above now appears to be the 'standard line' on two remarkable men.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:05 PM

My late wife Jacqui who was in "the soup" at the time (I wasn't) used to say that Bert Lloyd's principal interest in her music was the hope of getting into her pants.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:07 PM

PS. Steve Winick's paper is not there. I'd like to read it but must kip as some loony has had the idea of dancing the sun up at 0532 tomorrow morning at Bluebell Hill.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Brian & Shimrod, where to look? The web's not a lot of use unless you want the tradition of fantasy role playing (!)...but there are a number of academic libraries that list acquisitions on the subject, including UCL, Cardiff, & LSE (of all places), and a good social anthropology department could be a likely starting point if you really are wanting to research it further. My own brief contact with the subject began with A - level latin and that was along time ago to be quoting sources, but the werefox reference stuck in the mind and now that you've asked the question, I will try to dredge up more. I wasn't suggesting that it had formed the subject for song, though it might well have done, only that it existed.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:38 PM

RE: Skewball

"In fact it seems only very rarely to have been found in Ireland (Roud lists only one Irish version at present)."

This may not be the best place to bring this up, but I also have believed that Skewball was an Irish song. I was fairly certain I read something to that affect on this site, and upon looking through some threads I found these comments (below lyrics) by Bruce Olson.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:43 PM

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

In America, the Stewball ballad was "...most popular in the Negro south, where the winning horse is known variously as 'Stewball' or 'Kimball," and was apparently one of the chain-gang songs. The song was recorded by Leadbelly in 1940 (cd available via the Smithsonian Museum), by Joan Baez (album title Joan Baez/5), by Peter Paul and Mary, and a number of successive artists.

There is a closely-related American song, called Molly and Tenbrooks (also Run, Molly, Run; Old Tim Brooks; Tim Brooks; The Race Horse Song), which celebrates the famous east-west four-mile Kentucky match between the California mare Mollie McCarty and the great Kentucky racehorse Ten Broeck in 1878.

There are several versions of the Molly/Ten Broeck saga, as well, and Folklorist D.K. Wilgus believed there was a connection between the Skewball ballad and that of Molly and "Tenbrooks." In the real race, which Ten Broeck won, Mollie was distanced in the first (and final) heat, an incident seen in the Baez version of Stewball.   
Up until the 19th century, broadsides were the most inexpensive means of disseminating information in Great Britain, the earliest dating to the sixteenth century. Popular songs printed on a single side of a sheet of paper sold for a penny or less, and treated a broad variety of subjects, from the political to biblical, from medieval romance and very old ballads to contemporary events treated in a satirical vein. The ballad broadsides were often set to already familiar tunes. They were frequently illustrated with woodcuts.

The Bodleian Library of the University of Oxford has a substantial collection of over 25,000 items, in named collections which have been donated over the past 300 years. Among these are a collection bequeathed to the University in 1975 from Walter N.H. Harding, and within the 15,000 broadside ballads in this collection are several versions of Skewball. To see images and actual appearance of the original broadsides, and the thousands more in the Bodleian collection, all organized in a very useful on-line database (search for ("Skewball"), please visit the Bodleian Library Broadsides Ballad collection.

   


Some recordings of this song in various versions include: "Timbrooks and Molly" (Warde Ford, The Hole in the Wall (AFS 4210A1, 1939, AMMEN/Cowell); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (Bill Monroe & His Blue Grass Boys (Columbia 20612, 1949); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (Sonny Osborne (Kentucky 605, n.d.); "Molly and Tenbrooks" (The Stanley Brothers (Rich-R-Tone 418, 1948). The versions were noted by Wilgus in Kentucky Folklore Record V. II, No. 3; Vol. II, No. 4.

Below are two of the five versions of Skewball from the Bodleian ballad broadsides; the one on the right is dated 1784, the one on the left undated, but it appears to be the older of the two. To show how lyrics change over time, the Steeleye Span version of Skewball (from Ten Man Mop or Mr. Reservoir Butler Rides Again, available on cd from Shanachie Records Corp. (� 1989)) and the version (Stewball) sung by Joan Baez on the album Joan Baez/5 (Vanguard: VSD-79160), the latter set to a tune by the Greenbriar Boys. Beneath those are different versions of the saga of Mollie McCarty and Ten Broeck, where Skewball/Stewball starts making an appearance.

Skewball (Harding B-6 (54) 00668)

You Gentlemen Sportsmen I pray listen all
I'll sing you a song in the praise of Skewball
And how they came over you shall understand
By one Squire Irvine the Mell of [of] our land.
500 bright guineas on the plains of Kildare
I'll bet upon, Sportsmen, that bonny-grey mare
Skewball hearing the wager, the wager was laid
He said loving master, its don't be afraid.
For on my side thou'st laid thousands of pounds
I'll rig in thy castle a fine mass of gold.
Squire Irvine he smiled, and thus he did say,
You gentlemen-sportsmen to-morrow's the day
Your saddles and bridles, and horses prepare,
For we will away th [to] the plains of Kildare.
The day being come, & the horses bro't out,
Squire Irvine he order'd his rider to mount.
All the people then went to see them go round
They swore in their hearts that they ne'er
touch'd the ground.
And as they were riding this was the discourse
The grey mare will never touch this horse.
O, loving kind rider come tell unto me,
How far is the grey mare behind you said he...
O loving master you bear a great smile,
Grey mare is behind me a large English mile
For in this country I was ne'er seen before
Thou hast won the race & broken lord Gore.
Skewball (Harding B-25 1784 10198)

Ye gentlemen sportsmen I pray listen all,
And I'll sing you a song in praise of skewball,
And how he came over you shall understand,
It was esquire Mirvin a peer of our land.
And of his late actions is I have heard before,
And how he was challenged by one Sir Raph Gore,
For five hundred guines on the plains of kilder,
To run with Miss Sportsly that charming grey mare.
Skewball then he hearing the wager was laid,
He to his kind master said be not afraid.
For I on my side you thousands will hold,
I'll lay on your castle a fine mass of gold.
The time being come and the cattle led out,
The people came flocking from east, west, and south,
To beat all the Sportsmen I vow and declare,
They'd enter their money all on the grey mare.
Squire Mirvin he smiled and thus he did say,
Come gentlemen sportsmen that's money to lay.
All you that's got hundreds I will hold you all,
For I will lay thousands on famous Skewball.
Squire Mirvin he smiled, and thus he did say,
Ye gentlemen sportsmen to morrow's the day,
Your horses and saddles and bridles prepare,
For we must away to the plains of kildar.
The time being come and the cattle walk'd out,
Squire Mirvin he order'd his rider to mount,
With all the spectators to clear the way,
The time being come not a moment delay,
These cattle were mounted away they fly,
Skewball like an arrow past Miss Sportsly did fly,
And the people stept up for to see them go round,
They swore in their hearts he ne'er touch the ground.
And as they were just in the midst of their sport,
squire Mirvin* to his rider begun this discourse,
O loving kind rider come tell unto me,
How far is Miss Sportsly this moment from thee.
O loving kind master you bear a great style
The Grey Mare is behind me a full English mile,
If the saddle maintains as I warrent you there
We ne'er shall be beat on the plains of Kildar.
And as they were running past the distance chair,
the gentlemen cry'd Skewball never fear,
Although in this country thou wast never seen before,
Thou beating Miss Sportsly has broke Sir Ralph Gore.

*Corrected the next year to: Skewball to his rider began this discourse

Skewball (Steeleye Span)

You gallant sportsmen all, come listen to my story
It's of the bold Skewball, that noble racing pony
Arthur Marvel was the man that brought bold Skewball over
He's the diamond of the land and he rolls about in clover

The horses were brought out with saddle, whip and bridle
And the gentlemen did shout when they saw the noble riders
And some did shout hurray, the air was thick with curses
And on the grey Griselda the sportsmen laid their purses

The trumpet it did sound, they shot off like an arrow
They scarcely touched the ground for the going it was narrow
Then Griselda passed him by and the gentlemen did holler
The grey will win the day and Skewball he will follow

Then halfway round the course up spoke the noble rider
I fear we must fall back for she's going like a tyger.
Up spoke the noble horse, ride on my noble master
For we're half way round the course and now we'll see who's faster

And when they did discourse, bold Skewball flew like lightning
They chased around the course and the grey mare she was taken
Ride on my noble lord, for the good two hundred guineas
The saddle shall be of gold when we pick up our winnings

Past the winning post bold Skewball proved quite handy
And horse and rider both ordered sherry, wine and brandy
And then they drank a health unto Miss Griselda
And all that lost their money on the sporting plains of Kildare   Stewball (Joan Baez/5)

Stewball was a good horse
He wore a high head,
And the mane on his foretop
Was as fine as silk thread.

I rode him in England,
I rode him in Spain,
And I never did lose, boys,
I always did gain.

So come all you gamblers,
Wherever you are,
And don't bet your money
On that little gray mare.

Most likely she'll stumble,
Most likely she'll fall,
But you never will lose, boys,
On my noble Stewball.

As they were a-ridin'
'Bout halfway around,
That gray mare she stumbled
And fell on the ground.

And away out yonder,
Ahead of them all,
Came a prancin' an' dancin'
My noble Stewball.

Stewball: A Version
Source: Fiddle Players' Discussion List, Meghan Merker

Way out in California
Where Stewball was born
All the jockeys said old Stewball
Lord, he blew there in a storm

CHORUS: Bet on Stewball and you might win, win, win
Bet on Stewball and you might win

All the jockeys in the country
Say he blew there in a storm
All the women in the country
Say he never was known

When the horses were saddled
And the word was given: Go
Old Stewball he shot out
Like an arrow from a bow

The old folks they hollered
The young folks they bawled
The children said look, look
At that no good Stewball   Stewball: Another Version
Source: Fiddle Players' Discussion List, Meghan Merker

There's a big race (uh-huh), down in Dallas (uh-huh)
Don't you wish you (...) were there? (...)
you would bet your ( ) bottom dollar ( )
On that iron ( ) grey mare ( )
Bet on Stewball & you might win, win, win
Bet on Stewball & you might win!

Way out / in California / when old Stewball / was born
All the jockeys / in the nation / said he blew there / in a storm

Now the value / of his harness / has never / been told
His sadlle / pure silver / & his bridle / solid gold

Old Stewball / was a racehorse / Old Molly / was too
Old Molly / she stumbled / Old Stewball / he flew

Run Molly Run
Source: Kingston Trio ("Goin Places")

Chorus: Run Molly, run (oh, Molly). Run Molly, run.
Long John's gonna beat you, beneath the shinin' sun.

Long John was the youngest horse and Molly was the old.
Molly was an old grey mare and he was a stallion bold,
oh, Lordy, he was a stallion bold.

Long John said to Molly, "You're runnin' your last race
'Cause when I turn my head around I'm gonna see your face,
old gal, I'm gonna see your face."

Molly said to Long John, "Don't take me for a fool.
If you didn't cut your ears and tail, I'd think you were a mule
(Yeah!) I'd think you were a mule."

Long John, he got mad, oh, Lord, and shook his wooly mane.
"Last time that I run, old girl, I beat the Memphis train.
I beat the Memphis train."

Chorus

See them waitin' on the track. The man, he hollered, "Go!"
Long John runnin' fast, Lord, Molly runnin' slow.
Molly runnin' slow.

Long John said to Molly, "Take a last look at the sky.
'Cause baby when I pass you by, my dust's gonna blind your eye,
oh, Lord, my dust's gonna blind your eye."

Run, Molly, run. Look out for the turn,
oh, Lordy, Lordy, here she comes!

Long John beatin' Molly. Wait, what do I see?
Molly passin' Long John. Molly runnin' free,
oh, Lordy, Molly runnin' free.

Run Molly, run (oh Molly). Run Molly, run.
Put old Long John out to stud and let old Molly run!   Molly and Tenbrooks
Source: Steve Gillette and Linda Albertano, Cherry Lane Music, 1967

Tenbrooks was a bay horse, had a long, shaggy mane
Rode all around Memphis, beat the big Memphis train.
Run, Tenbrooks, run, if you don't run
Molly gonna beat you to the bright shinin' sun.

The women were weepin', their babes cryin' too.
The nine proud horses came thunderin' through.
With molly the leader, her head tossin' high.
With Molly the leader, with Tenbrooks behind,
She came flyin' by.

We shouted to Kuyper, you're not ridin' right.
Molly is a beatin' Tembrooks out of sight.
Kuyper, oh Kuyper, Kuyper my son,
Give him the bridle, let Tenbrooks run.

Tenbrooks looked at Molly, your face is so red.
Been runnin in the hot sun with a feverish head.
You're fallin' behind me, I'm out here all alone
Molly says to Tenbrooks, I'm leavin' this world
I'm a goin' on home.

Oh, run fetch old Tenbrooks and tie him in the shade.
They're buryin' Molly in a coffin ready made.
Out in California Molly done as she pleased,
Back in Kentucky, got beat with all ease,
Got beat with all ease.


A Related, Possibly Older Version
Source: "E.L."

chorus:
Run Molly, run
Run Molly, run
Tembruck gonna beat you
Bright shinin'sun.
Bright shinin' sun, oh lordy, bright shinin' sun.

They ran the Kentucky Derby on the 24th of May,
Some bet on Tembruck, some on Molly Day.
Some on Molly Day, oh lordy, some on Molly Day.

chorus

Piper, oh Piper, you're not runnin' right
Molly's beatin' Tembruck way out of sight.
Way out of sight, oh lordy,way out of sight.

chorus

Piper, oh Piper, oh Piper my son
Let old Tembruck have his head,let old Tembruck run.
Let old Tembruck run, oh lordy, let old Tembruck run







Skewball was a Racehorse The Ballads Was Skewball a Skewbald?






Home   Historic Sires   Historic Dams   Portraits   Turf Hallmarks   Breeders   Genetics   Resources   Contributors   Search   Store   E-mail




©1997 - 2005 Thoroughbred Heritage. All rights reserved.

with respect LLoyds[steeleyespan

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Rowan
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:17 AM

The Broadside tradition is clearly interrelated to the cannon of songs collected from source singers

A nice image, Les, much more evocative than using "canon".

Dave Arthur, quoted by Steve Winick in his important discussion of "Reynardine":

"One finds in [Lloyd's] manuscripts informants' names crossed out and changed,...and in the case of 'One of the Has Beens,' a very specific note, 'I heard this from a Vaudeville actor in hospital at Cowra, NSW, on New Year's Day,' was changed on publication to 'a teamster from Grenfell sang the song.'"

Arthur adds, somewhat acidly, that a teamster "sounds more 'authentic' than a 'vaudeville actor.'"

Thanks, Lighter. This was the Australian component of Bert's scholarship that I was trying to recall.

While the English tradition is one I can trace my ancestry to (thus allowing me some "right" to shove my oar in, so to speak) I thought I'd leave most of the debate about his effects on scholarship to those who figured their connection to the tradition was closer and allowing more pungent comment. Where Bert's scholarship can be described as "dodgy" and is applicable to my current context I feel justified in saying that, while it's a great song and I'm pleased Bert made it available to us all I'm peeved, as a performer, educator and scholar, that he fudged its provenance, no matter what his motives.

I'll leave my comments about how such behaviour allowed others to engage in unwarranted arrogation of "authenticity" for their own purposes for another time.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:10 AM

"I'll leave my comments about how such behaviour allowed others to engage in unwarranted arrogation of "authenticity" for their own purposes for another time."

Rowan, this sounds rather interesting could you describe briefly what you mean?

Boom, boom!
Les

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:15 AM

The link to the Reynardine article is working this morning. On reading it, I found I was re-reading it. It is wholly clear from it that there was a song of the general nature circulating at least 100 years before the Lloyd text, and given the divergencies of the cited researched texts, apparently long before that. It is that fact, and the fact that the French court in the 1500s and 1600s was adversely noted for its licentiousness plus the curious similarity to the French rebel's name that combine to cause me to favour the idea of a French history for the tale underlying the song.

However that leads to the question of whether the possible mixed fear and joy over female sexual awakening indicates a prior song to which the outlaw, with his rejection of licentiousness, but his succumbing to temptation, came, or whether the outlaw was there first and the inherent contradiction in the sexual theme of the song came later.

I also note that the article seems to have an axe to grind, certainly in its earlier parts.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:33 AM

Looking at "The mountains high", I can't see any outlaw, with his rejection of licentiousness, but his succumbing to temptation. Before it was embellished by Campbell, Hughes and most of all Lloyd, it seems to have been a straightforward cautionary tale about a girl who's seduced by the charms of a glamorous outlaw. As for mixed fear and joy over female sexual awakening, you can find that mixture in any song that presents loss of virginity as a calamity while also getting entertainment out of it... which is to say, about half the traditional songs in England.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:52 AM

Did you note that I referred to a (lost) progenitor song and did you note the referenceces in the article to the French outlaw?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:24 AM

I saw a single reference to a French outlaw ("la Renaudie"), alongside references to an Italian outlaw ("Rinaldo Rinaldini") and an English outlaw ("Reynoldin"). If I was going to follow up any of those it would be the last one.

On the point about the (lost) progenitor song, all I would say is that I wouldn't expect any song that predated "The mountains high" to be closer to "Reynardine" than it was to "The mountains high". Otherwise you'd have to argue that the oral tradition turned a song seething with unavowed magic and repressed sexuality into a common-or-garden "maiden's warning" number, and that Bert Lloyd saw the diamond in the rough and restored it to its former glory. It's all a bit 'green man' for me (Sedayne, are you there?).

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 May 08 - 11:55 AM

The difficulty with "lost originals" is that one can always imagine some and they always have the characteristics one is looking for!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 08 - 11:59 AM

Is this where we came in?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:45 PM

Possibly, Les!

For those who don't know, Nerd is the mudcat handle for Steve Winick, who wrote the Reynardine article kindly linked in by Brian...so, that's who I am!

On the Reynardine stuff...I din't have an axe to grind, particularly. But to publish in prominent academic journals these days, you need to show why your paper is both novel and theoretically interesting. This is particularly true if you are not yourself a prominent academic-- which I am not really now, and certainly wasn't then.

Novelty is generally not a problem outside academia, but for something to be "theoretically interesting" often amounts to proving a theoretical point. This looks a lot like axe-grinding to non-academics. So a good deal of that impression was probably added to the paper through my need to fill that requirement.

Also, even though many people here on Mudcat were willing to supply instances of Lloyd's "tinkering," what i was saying--that Bert tinkered with songs and didn't admit it sometimes--was still pretty radical in British academic folklore. In fact, one of the anonymous reviewers for the journal said that when he started reading the paper he was sure I was wrong, but was finally convinced by the end. In order to convince such folks, I had go very deeply into each piece of evidence to be sure no stone was unturned--which may feel like overkill to people whose attitude is "ok, I accept that Lloyd did this, but so what!"

My educated guesses on why Bert changed Reynardine, and why he let his changes be accepted as traditional, do appear in the paper, in the section called Negotiating Authenticity: A. L. Lloyd and the Mystery of "Reynardine" The analogy I use is not Tom Keating but The Brothers Grimm--a more directly applicable one, I think. As others have said, Keating wasn't creating the standards by which people evaluated and verified the authenticity of artworks on the one hand, and forging them on the other. If he had been, he would inevitably have put in his books on "how to evaluate Rembrandt's works" ideas which validated his forgeries. In doing that, he would have introduced flaws in the model by which Rembrandt's works were studied.

Lloyd basically was doing this. He was able to condition people to accept his rewritten pieces as genuine--by telling them "people in the industrial revolution felt this way," and then providing the songs which "proved" (and were proved by) his assertions. Interestingly, the effect academics are interested in isn't the creation of new songs, but the creation of theories and standards to validate what are essentially forgeries: THAT's what was damaging to folklore scholarship. People who listened to the revival recordings Lloyd influenced were also reading his books, hoping to be told by an academic folklorist what the songs meant--and they were getting potted theories that only fully held up if you accepted his forgeries as real. As (I think it was) Brian pointed out, this began very early in Lloyd's career, with The Singing Englishman, in which he had a whole theory about the peasants' revolt of the 1380s that included "The Cutty Wren"; at once claiming the song was far older than it probably is, and poorly describing the song's performance so as to make it all seem plausible. By the time of Folk Song In England, no-one would have believed the song was that old, which I think is one reason he left it out.

The people who absorbed all this circular thinking include generations of folklore and ethnomusicology students who studied with Lloyd, as well as revivalists like Brian who treat songs as more than just entertainment. So Lloyd's actions could in theory have had disastrous effects on our understanding of traditional song in England. Luckily he wasn't consistent, or calculating, or deliberate enough to have done that much damage. It wasn't what he was trying to do, after all.

To people like Dick Miles who say that his sins are outweighed by the good things he did...that's well and good, and I agree. But it's really irrelevant. The great American linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf was never an academic--he was, in fact, a fire safety inspector. It so happens that his papers were great works of linguistic scholarship. But what if they had been deliberately misleading, and set our understanding of language and cognition back years. Would it be logical to argue: "well, maybe, but he saved a lot of lives as a fire safety inspector, so we can't blame him for those bad things he did?" In short, Bert's good effects on the world outweighed his bad ones, but I can still wish he hadn't had the bad effects.

In my paper, I try to be balanced here. I really do think Lloyd was a wonderful figure for twentieth-century folksong and folk music. I see his tinkering more as a form of mischievous play than as a crime. In fact, he often left a trail of breadcrumbs to the truth, that people like Dave Arthur and Roy Palmer and Keith Gregson and myself have been able to follow. One could even argue that the discipline has been strengthened through us being kept "on our toes" by Bert, years after he left us!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:51 PM

A separate post, for those who are interested:

I pursued all three outlaw leads, La Renaudie, Rinaldo Rinaldini, and Reynoldyn, much further than the final form of the paper would indicate. When it was being published in academic folklore's most august journal, I ran afoul of their rather strict length limit (who knew?) In the end, they were probably right to force me to cut, as the discussions of previous outlaws were all essentially digressions.

In brief:

I don't think the La Renaudie hypothesis is convincing, mainly because there isn't a shred of evidence for it except that someone once noticed the similarity of names--in particular, there are not (to my knowledge) any French songs about him, nor is he a particularly well-known figure. To Richard's "whether the possible mixed fear and joy over female sexual awakening indicates a prior song to which the outlaw, with his rejection of licentiousness, but his succumbing to temptation, came, or whether the outlaw was there first and the inherent contradiction in the sexual theme of the song came later," I can only say "you've lost me completely." I keep trying to read that sentence, but never have any idea by the end what it means!

Rinaldo Rinaldini is, I think, a more probable source, because the novel about him by Christian August Vulpius (what a great surname for this particular discussion!) was very popular in German and in English translation almost exactly when the ballad "The Mountains High" arose. But it's almost too exact--if I recall, the first broadside we can date is the same year as the English translation of Rinaldo. If the song existed at all before that, it would be an impossible influence...besides which, the ballad bears no resemblance I could find to any particular incident in the novel (which I had to soldier through just to find that out!)

Reynoldyn, or Reynold, is, I think, the most likely outlaw source, and I have a separate paper coming out on that connection, very shortly, in a book from the University of Delaware Press. Essentially, this Reynold was a peripheral figure in the Robin Hood tales from before the date of the earliest ballads, and the first recorded form of his name (in 1432) is "Reynoldyn." In a later song, which Child prints in his notes but does not assign a number, "Renold" appears to be the real name of Much the Miller's son (although in the 1432 inscription, they are different outlaws.) However, even though I spun it into a separate paper, I am not truly convinced that there is a connection--I am just presenting it as a possibility.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:56 PM

To clarify my post of 7:45, I do not think that Lloyd's reason for changing Reynardine was to create validation for some pre-existing historical hypothesis. I do think this about many of his other songs, however, such as "The Recruited Collier." To get my take on Reynardine, it's best to read that section of paper.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:39 PM

I'm sure I read more, some time ago, on La Reynaudie. There was (I think I read) some pretty direct connection to the curious phrase "brought up in Venus train". I also noted, I think ( hope I remember this) that the chateau de la Reynaudie (still I think a wine appelation) was in a mountanous region.

I also vaguely remember something being made of the nature of the melody we use, and evidence of immigration to Sussex.

Now where oh where did I read it?

What I don't think I can rebut is that Lloyd concocted rather than collected at least parts of his version.

But thank you Nerd for your careful and learned explanation. Things like that are the core of what makes the Mudcat such a wonderful place, and help me to remain safe against the idiocies of horse definitioners.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:56 PM

Richard,

Next week at work I can look further into La Renaudie if you like. From home, I don't have access to a lot of reference tools that I have at work (work is a library...)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:45 AM

Thanks, Steve (originally typed 'Serd'!) I like the breadcrumb-trail image - "TRC" is a good example of this. More later, probably.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:53 AM

To people like Dick Miles who say that his sins are outweighed by the good things he did...that's well and good, and I agree. But it's really irrelevant. The great American linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf was never an academic--he was, in fact, a fire safety inspector. It so happens that his papers were great works of linguistic scholarship. But what if they had been deliberately misleading, and set our understanding of language and cognition back years. Would it be logical to argue: "well, maybe, but he saved a lot of lives as a fire safety inspector, so we can't blame him for those bad things he did?" In short, Bert's good effects on the world outweighed his bad ones, but I can still wish he hadn't had the bad effects.
no, because being a fire safety inspector has nothing to do with the tradition or the folk revival,Berts other work[Singing recording] was very important to the folk revival,so his doubtful scholarship has to be seen in relation to his other contributions to the folk revival.
benjamin lee whorf, may have been a great linguisatic scholar,but the was his only contribution.
ALLloyd is a completely different kettle of fish,his contributuions to the folk revival were many faceted.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Rowan
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:48 AM

Les in Chorlton asked "I'll leave my comments about how such behaviour allowed others to engage in unwarranted arrogation of "authenticity" for their own purposes for another time."

Rowan, this sounds rather interesting could you describe briefly what you mean?

On 22 April Brian Peters wrote The problem is that, for many of us who love traditional songs and choose to sing them, the fact that they are "The Voice of the People" […] is a part of their appeal. We like to feel, realistically or otherwise, that they may offer some kind of insight as to what life was really like, as seen not by historians but by ordinary folk

This elicited (inter alia) a post from Steve Gardham, who wrote Bert went out on a whaler from Hull and claimed to have learnt a version of the shanty 'Heave away my Johnny' from a seaman off Stoneferry in Hull. The explanation of this example Steve used was given as One verse runs 'Fare ye well, ye Kingston girls, farewell St Andrews Dock'. Nobody from Hull (With the sole exception of one Mike Ramsden)would ever call anybody from Hull 'Kingston'. The only things called Kingston are the stadium, a few local firms and a rugby team, but even they're either Rovers or KR. Kingston stadium is KC. Most people from Hull can't stand the bloody name Kingston. St Andrews dock is a relatively new dock and would only have been built a few years before Bert was sailing out of her on his one trip whaling on a very modern boat. It was the fish dock, now filled in.

This struck a chord with me and, although most of my post addressed Bert's magic, I commented there are people who've made successful careers, in and beyond the folkscene, out of their ability to imitate Bert's apparent authenticity (even when their depth of scholarship extends no further than LP covers), while not similarly imitating his politics.

The next day, because various posters seemed to have not separated the issue of Bert's scholarship authenticity from his artistry I wrote The Trojan Horse concept worked for the Greeks and produced, in their opinion, a great result so it should be no surprise that others should imitate it. I don't think anyone here has any criticism of the quality of Bert's artistry, judged by the results around us; the extent of the criticism is the intent of that artistry. The real bother for me is that others used similar techniques to arrogate "authority" to their background so their presentation of "tradition" would be more readily received.


In Oz we have a person who is greatly respected in the folk scene (both here and internationally) and who, early in his career in Oz, presented himself as having similar "authority" in his background, intending it to enhance his presentation of "tradition" so it would be more readily received. I recalled that Mudcat had already hosted some discussion of this and, as you can see, various esteemed 'catters have sprung to his defence. As one who has known all the protagonists in the 'ballad' discussed there I have great respect for the substantive abilities of all of them.   I gather the ballad was regarded in Victoria as a bit of a hoot, although people who weren't part of the Melbourne scene at the relevant period have taken it more seriously.

Danny got an Honorary Doctorate out of it so "all's well that ends well."

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:04 AM

I see once again my right to have an opinion and express it about folk music is challenged on mudcat.

One thing is certain about these songs. The audience is what gives them their power.

Those of us who lived through the height of the recent Irish troubles will remember what a rough ride many Irish singers had in UK clubs - particularly wih republican songs. But I've seen an audience get angry with just the idea of an Irish song after one particularly terrible bomb outrage. Similarly I saw singers stopped from singing Blackleg miner in this area (Nottinghamshire) during the miners strike of the 1980's. History changes and our perspective changes.

If Brian Peters can evoke an interest in folk music and illustrate history to schoolchildren using folksong - that is surely all to the good. We all know what went on in Victorian factories and child labour. This is a great way of getting it over to a receptive audience. If an artist can get a little fizz from any of these old incendiary devices, that's all to the good.

An artist has the right to edit and cut and republish in the most potent way possible to his audience - almost a duty. Call it an obligation. The originals will still be there in the library for the historian and researcher

Look at the different ways folksongs have been sung - John Jacob Niles, Bert Lloyd, Joan Baez, Martin Carthy - and now Brian. The primary obligation of the artist is to make the material live. This is conditioned by his audience, whoever they may be - the minute he stands up to sing. If he ignores them - gets bogged down in other considerations, he will bore people.

If you can't understand this - you can't understand much about the nature of art itself. As Henry Moore used to say about the pebble on the beech that you pick because its shape appeals to you aesthetically, that act of selection and appreciation is the work of art - not the action of the insensate sea on the pebble.

That spark with the audience, that's the dfficult thing to achieve. That is what we must go for - every time. Not some abstract notion of truth, which historians will bicker over, because that is all they can do.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:58 AM

I cannot imagine that many of us would disagree with what you have written.

But Brian made the point early on - was this song written by people in its time or made up or seriously changed recently - because that's not the same.

Whowill get the lucky 200?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:56 AM

>> The primary obligation of the artist is to make the material live. <<

Yes. Because if we lose our audience then it doesn't much matter what the hell we are singing to them.

A little mea culpa: years ago I doctored the final verse of "the Oldham White Hare" (a song which might well have undergone some previous doctoring, incidentally) in order to close it with a mildly anti-blood-sports sentiment. Nobody minded - my audiences probably enjoyed it more because of that, and I came out of it looking proper right-on. Nonetheless, that wasn't really what the song was all about originally. Perhpas I'm more sensitive about this kind of thing having given workshops explaining the history behind the songs, as opposed to doing nothing more that entertain audiences, but I'm not sure I'd want to do that kind of thing any more.

>> The originals will still be there in the library for the historian and researcher <<

By and large, yes. Although this thread has pointed out one or two instances where the 'originals' have proved rather elusive. But the problem is where a general perception takes over (e.g. when a doctored song becomes the standard version, in our little world at least) that it at odds with the actual hisotry.

Did I get the 200 (as if I care, really)?