BS: Teachers on strike UK

Subject: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM

I know several teachers in the folk scene and out off.I agree on the strike,what do fellow teachers here on Mudcat feel especially as so many exams are going on eg sats etc.


Scooby

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7363718.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

Thanks for the thread.



Scooby.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:09 AM

isn't it strange.

As a parent, if you pull your son or daughter out of school for whatever reason, you are heading into trouble.
However, the very people that try to enforce such rules for the good of the children and exams etc, couldn't give a toss about walking out on strike (I am talking about the teachers who are out on strike, not the ones that have cariied on teaching).

From what I can see, they are already earning good pay and will probably finish up with good pensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:21 AM

Average Nurse's pay £27k p.a.
Average Police Constable's pay £28k p.a.
Average Teacher's pay £34k p.a.
(Source - BBC 'Breakfast' programme this a.m.)

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:27 AM

Why are they striking then. Sounds to me that they are already on decent pay.

There are a lot of people in this country who are just about surviving on the poverty line, who will never ever get that sort of pay.

Shame on you teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: jonm
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:27 AM

.... but it is a requirement for a teacher to be a graduate with an additional post-graduate qualification, neither of which apply to the police or nursing (where training is given on the job, not required in advance of employment, too).

Perhaps a better comparison would be with engineering (average £44k) or GPs?

Personally, I'm in support of the teachers since the salaries are not compatible with other graduate professions, but not in support of strike action.

College lecturers are also on strike today, a fact hardly anyone has noticed (well, the students are adults and many have just gone to the pub etc.). This is because the Government is mixing more and more school-age kids into Colleges where staff are paid on average 6% less than the teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Non-striking teacher
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:43 AM

Average Teacher's pay £34k p.a.? As any Maths teacher knows, averages don't really tell you much. It also depends how the average was worked out. The vast majority of teachers earn a huge amount less than this.

That said, The Villan makes a valid point, which is why I am not striking. Now is not the time to strike with the economy as a whole looking shaky and GCSEs and A Levels looming. I do not think striking is always wrong, but the issue of pay is not serious enough to warrant it, IMO. Do the NUT really think the govt. is going to simply roll over and give us more money just because a patchy strike, which a tiny minority of all teachers voted for (a minority even within the one union that voted at all), closed some schools for one day?

Morale amongst teachers is dipping and dipping. The issue for today's strike is pay, but there is a much deeper well of rightful resentment here, and even if we were to be paid over the odds, this would not address the real underlying issues. The unions have not served us well by only focussing on and acting on pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

Very ghood to hear what you say Gnst.

Its about time teachers were given the role to teach without the 90% paperwork that goes with it and having control of the class,instead of having to pamper to all those rude, insolent and diabolical children who don't give a toss about morality and society and get away with unbeleivable acts against teachers.

I reckon if those two items were sorted, we might get back to teacher pride and enthusiasm for their job. More important than a few quid extra pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM

Do you want your children to be taught by the best people that the profession can attract, with commensurate salaries - or isn't your children's education of any concern to you? Yer pays yer money.....

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:15 AM

As an occasional supply teacher, there are far bigger issues to address than pay, as far as I'm concerned. For example, the numerous schools who book their supply cover via agencies, which costs them more or less the same as if they booked teachers directly but means I lose around £60 per day (gross). There are also questions about conditions of work - the behaviour issues, the extra hours spent on fairly meaningless paperwork etc - which are far higher up my own list of priorities.
Although I'm a long-standing member of the NUT I wouldn't have voted for this strike (no one asked me because I'm a supply teacher). I would, however, campaign for better pay for other workers. My husband (who works in a council-run living history museum - a very fine place indeed) is paid only marginally more than the minimum wage, despite the unusual mix of skills he has to use on a daily basis.
And all this argument about the 10p rate of tax - no one talks about us. We're not youngsters, nor are we at the upper end of the age they're talking about, but no one has mentioned that childless couples of any age will be affected by this.
Ah well. I suppose I've made my own choices. But now I'm disillusioned with my union as well as my politicians. Great.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

Villan, when you and I were at school if we misbehaved, the teacher punished us, and then if we dared to tell our parents about it, we were punished again. A status quo prevailed.

The arrival of the doting, smart-arse, barrack-room-lawyer, "I know more about teachers' jobs than any teacher", "How dare you punish my Perfect Little Angel" brigade of parents wrecked the status quo, and it will never be restored.

If children are rude, insolent and diabolical in the classroom, it's because thirty years' of these kind of parents, and the increasingly litigious society we live in, have encouraged them to be so.

44 years ago, when I left school, I'd have given my right arm to have the balls to go to college (no degree needed in those days, jonm, just 'A' Levels and a three-year course at Teacher Training College) and become a teacher. I wouldn't be one for a king's ransom today.

And FWIW, I don't begrudge them a pay-rise. But I think nurses and policemen should earn the same as them - they're all underpaid.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:30 AM

If only we could get back to those days with the kids.

>>Do you want your children to be taught by the best people that the profession can attract, with commensurate salaries - or isn't your children's education of any concern to you? Yer pays yer money..... <<

Of course I care. However a peice of paper doesn't prove anything.
I would like to see teachers teaching with all the skills they have, and cut the paperwork crap out. Likewise get control in the classroom back.

I know a few people who were very good at getting an academic qualification to teach, but didn't have the skills to teach.

Get that right, then come back and talk about pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:40 AM

Bit of sweeping statement about the whole profession, Villain. Are you basing your opinion on an in-depth knowledge of the teaching profession or just an in-built prejudice? My wife's an eductaion lecturer with an MEd and spends all he working life in schools, largely in deprived areas. She will confirm that the standard of teaching is, largely, excellent and, where deficient, is almost always picked up by OFSTED inspectors and remedial action taken.

But, hey, don't let anything as boring as the facts get in the way of your argument!

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:55 AM

Then why is it that most kids are so poor with English or Maths (or so we are led to beleive).

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

By the way leveller, I wasn't inferring that your wife was in that mould. She may well be one of the teachers I have respect for, but I am not in a position to judge. As I said, just because somebody gets a qualification, does not necessarily make them a good teacher.

There are teachers who are very good, but are so frustrated with conditions of work, not so much the pay. Yes we would all like more money.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM

"Then why is it that most kids are so poor with English or Maths (or so we are led to beleive)."

I know one or two old 'uns who aren't great at spelling either! LOL!

BWM (The View From The Wannabe-English-Teacher's Blackboard).

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Oh dear, silly me, forgot to spell check LOL

Believe

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM

"why is it that most kids are so poor with English or Maths"

Possibly because class sizes approach or exceed 30 and in many areas the majority of pupils do not have English as their first language. Facilities in some areas are sadly lacking, many school buildings are over 100 years old, and the curriculum requires so much from each individual that there is not enough time to do it all.

Teachers in major cities may get 'weighting' (a slightly higher pay rate to cover the alledged cost of living in the city), but many are also 'handcuffed' by contracts. At one point, not so many years ago, if a new teacher got their first job in London, they could not leave London for 5 years without major penalties. Consequently, London had a major shortage of 'new blood'.

As with nurses, police, fire and ambulance officers, teachers often cannot afford to live in the areas they teach. I am a parent/governor of a local school in London - over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM

"But ministers maintain teachers are rewarded adequately, and that parents would feel little sympathy for their demands."

Yeah. Now, maybe someone could find out how much these ministers get and what THEIR pension is like.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:29 AM

Teachers last took industrial action 22 years ago and I was one of them. The conditions were similar. Wages were being eroded yet more and more was being expected.

Then , like now, the unions were being goaded into action - it really is a no win situation.

The government will allow pay to be eroded while perporting to be doing its best and if teachers do nothing they will keep on doing it.

If however, teachers take action. the government can throw its hands up in the air at such unreasonable behaviour by greedy teachers and still have an excuse for doing nothing.

It may not do any good but at least for some teachers, striking allows them to feel that they are making a stand.

Instead of looking at how much better pay would cost - look at how much teachers actually save the government by teaching larger classes and doing supervision duties.
Also look at how the government are allowing standards to erode by using unqualified teachers - something that was done away with in the early 1900's.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

You all have gone on about maths what about reading and writing.



Scooby

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:21 PM

I am a teacher at the top of the pay scale for a standard classroom teacher and yet earn well under the 'average' quoted by the media. Teachers undergo extended studies to gain their professional status and that includes learning teaching skills. Most teachers spend as much time working out of the classroom as they do in it and face very stressful situations on a daily basis. If they get children to work hard and pass exams the media will say the exams are getting easier but if kids don't pass its the teachers that are blamed - can't win!
Tabster you have perhaps answered my question as to why I wasn't asked to vote. I am still listed as a supply teacher although I am now on a temporary contract. NUT members at the school where I work made the decision to support the strike and so I have been at home today. Do I think the kids will miss out? Its one day every 22 years! Although local authorities make a big fuss over unauthorised abscences in reality it is only the children who perpetually miss days or take extended holidays that really have problems keeping up.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

9/10 for spelling :(
absence
absence
absence

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Sooz
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

The problem isn't really the average salary. It is the newly qualified teachers on a starting salary of around 20K and a massive student loan who have a problem. They soon see that their friends with similar qualifications earn a lot more so they are lured away from the prefession into other careers. Few new entrants last beyond the second or third year. As those of us with 30+ years experience but who are too knackered to continue call it a day there will be even more problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM

I agree with Mrs Duck what is one day.The teachers have to make a hole to let the government see they mean business.


Scooby

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

I am a teacher and a member of the NUT. The strike is an attempt to stop year on year below inflation pay awards.
What concerns me greatly is that for three decades the rich have grown far richer under both New Labour and the Tories. City executives,bankers and other fat cats have grown bloated with massive yearly pay awards [to themselves ] while also ripping off public assests,our pension funds, share dividends and so on.
Its about time they realised and our union leaders realise that the output of our economy is the product of our labour...and that is why all the low paid need to be in unions and in the position to face down the greedy class that has done so well out of the free market and neo liberalism.
Sorry I havent put it well.And the lesson for the children in all this is...join a union!
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

I know two teachers in the same family one on strike one was not .That must have been hrd for the family.What do you as teachers feel?.


Scooby

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:49 PM

Probably just in different unions. NUT were the only union striking today but many teachers are in NASUWT or PAT and those have not balloted on strike action as far as I know. At the school where I work three struck (NUT members) and three didn't but there was no bad feeling either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:04 PM

PAT have a no strike policy so they will not have balloted on strike action. I'm a member of PAT; they do not strike but would be unwilling to take up work laid down by others.

I agree with what jonm said.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:19 PM

what qualifications do politicians have,why do they get paid more than teachers?
politicians also have the oppurtunity,to earn extra income,as consultants.the problem with this is when the consultancy interests clash with who they are supposed to represent their constituents.
Ithink teachers deserve to be paid the same as members of parliament.
Well-placed sources say that a report submitted to Downing Street by the Senior Salaries Review Body says MPs' pay should go up from its present £60,675 to about £66,500 over three years - nearly 10 per cent.


It involves a 2.8 per cent hike in April followed by index-linked rises in the next two years, in addition to an annual £800 "top-up".


As well as their salary, MPs receive generous perks including a second-home allowance, subsidised travel and a gold-plated pension. Commons holidays average four months a year, though MPs claim they pension.



Commons holidays average four months a year, though MPs claim they spend much of this time working in their constituencies. http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:22 PM

Don't know about England, but I do know in Canada we're happy we don't get all the government we pay for.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:31 PM

Ah, so that's where the £8 a month they're taking from my pay now, is going to....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM

Three years of sub inflation pay increments = A PAY CUT!!

How many workers in any industry are willing to take a pay cut, whether imposed by employers or government. If you wouldn't accept that yourself, why would you feel that teachers should?

Up to £10,000 in student debt to be paid back at 5% interest, and you are offered 2.5%, just at the time that your cost of living rises by 4%.

Electricity and gas 14-15% up.
Council tax 8% up, where I live.
Fuel for your car up 58pence per gallon in the last year (currently £5+ per gallon for unleaded, and a lot more than that for diesel)
Food up by more than 5% in the last few weeks.

How can this government claim any fiscal credibility when in spite of all this they cut pay to public service workers, in real terms, while increasing both their own pay, and their expenses too.

I think it fair to say that the teachers have a point. The fact that they earn more than certain other public employees is not an excuse for cutting THEIR salaries, but rather a good reason to review police and NHS workers pay with a view to an increase in line with the true rate of inflation.

As for the effect on the pupils sitting, or about to sit exams, well, if one day lost will cause them to fail, they didn't have much chance of passing without losing that day.

As a spokesman said on BBCs Breakfast program, if we drive all the best brains out of the profession by refusing adequately to reward them for their skills, then we are selling our children short and jeopardising their future.

Don T.(Not a teacher, or a teachers' representative. Just a bloke who has worked alongside teachers for fifteen years, and learned to respect and admire them for their skills, and for their patience with stupid politicians, which is understandably wearing thin).

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 02:42 AM

There are people much worse off.

We have made cuts in order to cope, including a ban on alcohol and buying the cheapest products and cutting out luxuries and being prudent with the use of Gas Electricity and Water. Fortunately we don't smoke and our holiday is already paid for (partly by Tesco £1 = £4 vouchers).

Our take home pay £17000 for a family of four.

Nobody to cry too or any big union to get us out on strike. Just tighten the spending purse and get on with life.

The damage to the country on all the strikes that are coming up will only make matters worse with a government that is spiralling out of control.

So stop thinking about yourselves, there are many many people in desperate situations, not just the teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:14 AM

Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could cost the economy 50 million. Hello, who is going to pay for that?
Cost to the economy for the teachers strike - any ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:15 AM

>>Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could cost the economy 50 million. Hello, who is going to pay for that?
<<

oops

Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could be 50 million. Hello, who is going to pay for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:32 AM

"over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby"

Probably because of the sharp-elbowed parents who want to make sure that their little darlings get into the best schools ....and sod the teachers who have made those schools so good!

I understand from my wife that at quite a few of the schools where she does training, teachers refused to strike because they were worried that it might affect the children and reflect in the SATs exams to be held shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:59 AM

>>Just seen that the cost to the economy for the Grangemouth Strike could be 50 million<<

50 million a day

>>I understand from my wife that at quite a few of the schools where she does training, teachers refused to strike because they were worried that it might affect the children and reflect in the SATs exams to be held shortly. <<

Sense prevails and I applaud them.

>>"over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby"<<

Doesn't that apply to most people who have jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:03 AM

"Our take home pay £17000 for a family of four.

Nobody to cry too or any big union to get us out on strike. Just tighten the spending purse and get on with life."

Ditto me mate, only ours is less than £15,000, and I still say that the fact that others are worse off is no good reason to drag anyone else down. My concept of civilisation was about getting all of us out of poverty, not bringing everyone else down into it.

I don't know about you, but MY contribution to society is considerably less than that of teachers, nurses, or policemen, so I concentrate on maximising my position, and don't begrudge others getting the just reward for their contribution.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM

Fine, but striking does IMHO more harm than good and as I said "there are many many people in desperate situations". I should have added "and much worse than ours".

>>My concept of civilisation was about getting all of us out of poverty, not bringing everyone else down into it.
<<

Well I don't think that I have any control over that. The government look to be doing that on their own.

I don't begrudge anybody earning as much as they can, I just hate strikes and the damage they do to the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:31 AM

>>"over 2/3rds of the staff do not live within 10 miles, because they cannot afford the housing that is available nearby"<<

Doesn't that apply to most people who have jobs.


No. I work 8 miles from where I live, my colleague next to me lives 10 minutes away. This is 10 miles of city we're talking about here, of which the City - the Square Mile of London City - is only a small part.

Find a map of London and put a compass' point on West Ham Football Ground. Work out by scale what a 5 mile radius would be and then see how much residential building is included in that circle. It's a lot.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:39 AM

Well theers an aweful lot of people who live outside the M25 ring who travel daily to work in London, as you would know if you are tavelling on the M4/M3/M1 and the trains.

I have had to do it myself when I lived and worked down there. In fact for a year and a half, I had to travel daily from Bracknell to Watford to work. Just part of the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:43 AM

Missed off the M11 and M20 plus all the other A roads that lead into London.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM

""Well I don't think that I have any control over that. The government look to be doing that on their own.

I don't begrudge anybody earning as much as they can, I just hate strikes and the damage they do to the economy.""


Can't disagree with either of those comments. This government is an unmitigated disaster, a total loss without insurance.

I hate strikes too, but when you get right down to it, what other mechanism do we have that has the slightest chance of making the government take seriously the concerns of our citizens?

The right to strike in the face of injustice is, whether we like it or not, a part of our system, so how can we say that it is wrong to use it in support of a just claim.

Would you agree with me that all of us should see our income rise by AT LEAST the rate of inflation annually? Anything less is a pay CUT, and that is what teachers have received for three years on the trot.

Others are in the same position, and I would support THEM just as strongly if they took action.

It is true that some of us (myself included) do not have the mechanism, or the support to take action, and are therefore at the mercy of this bankrupt of ideas administration, but I still support those who can taking what action they can.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

As I said, I am anti strike, but tehre is nowt I can do about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM

*there

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM

I also am anti strike which is why I am in a union which has a no strike policy. However, none of this affects me anymore because I have recently stopped working and am decluttering and downshifting.

I agree with Don T.

IMO the NUT has been pushed into this and will not have taken strike action lightly. I fully support the teachers. Hopefully children who were out of school for the day will have done private revision for upcoming exams, caught up on homework, investigations, projects and coursework.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:47 AM

"Would you agree with me that all of us should see our income rise by AT LEAST the rate of inflation annually?"

No Don, I wouldn't. Going down that road FUELS the very inflation you're moaning about. It's a basic fact of Economics, and it's one of the factors that drove the runaway inflation of the 70's (or was it the 80's - my brain's tired?).

The better control is to encourage hard work and maximise production, control public spending, and hold down income inflation. That way, prices don't rise (or not as fast), so no need for big pay-increases chasing prices. IMHO of course.

Easy to say, but not so easy to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Teachers on strike UK
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:47 AM

Does anybody know what the cost to the economy was for the Teachers strike?

Will they lose one days pay and the loss of one days holiday?

Will they have money deducted from their salary to refund parents who have had to pay for extra childcare or even take a day off work to look after them?

Will the bus companies that ferry the children to school be compensated for loss of income and if so who will pay for that?

Will the food companies that provide school dinners be compensated for loss of income and if so who will pay for that?

The list is endless.