BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: GUEST,caitín
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:02 PM

>Investigate HOW? One of the whole problems with this thing is that you can't. Even the animal organisations haven't been able to, conclusively.

is what I wrote. In your selective quoting you missed the fact that I was saying that the organisations haven't been able to INVESTIGATE. You've obviously read what you wanted to in the last nine words and interpreted it as "proved". Vargas hasn't proved his side either.

The case isn't closed just because you (a) think it is (b) say it is (c) want it to be. For a lot of people it's still wide open.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:20 PM

Lox, you have your own opinions on this issue. But not everyone shares them, and we are all entitled to the right of free discussion and our viewpoints. No one can claim the final word and declare the matter closed. As long as there is doubt and debate, it is not closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:14 AM

Oh ... so you've got some new leads then?


"In your selective quoting you missed the fact that I was saying that the organisations haven't been able to INVESTIGATE"

Yes - they haven't EVEN been able to do that.

Let alone find any evidence that there is anything wrong.

Your point STRENGTHENS mine.


So ... any verifiable reasons why we should be talking about stopping this guy?

Any proof that he is an animal abuser?

Why should I join the witch-hunt ... I mean sign the petition?

I believe in Innocent until proven guilty.

Thankfully so do most other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

There is enough material out there to swamp fifty Mudcats. I'm not going to use up time and bandwidth writing out a summary rehashing it all. But that does not mean it doesn't exist. All you have to do is an internet search. If you want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

"And then go on to be honored by the Costa Rican Ministry of Art & Culture as their country's representative at an important Central American exhibition."

Collaborators! Obviously in cahoots with him to cause pain and misery to animals.

I'm still not reading any reasons to lynch him ... er ... I mean sign a petition ... convincing or otherwise.

I have on my own noticed several reasons to doubt the authenticity of the allegations.

If you're going to condemn someone you better have a verifiable reason.

How dare you accuse, judge and sentence somebody without evidence and then blithely turn round to me and say we'll have to agree to disagree.

The onus of proof is on YOU as you are bringing the allegation.


We all get upset about things, shooting from the hip based on our feelings is an attitude from the dark ages that we can do without.

It is the reason why a Paediatrician in portsmouth had to hide in his house from a rabble who had made the leap to defenders of the community based on the fact that they didn't know the difference between a paediatrician and a paedophile.

Show me evidence that he did something wrong or be quiet.

And DON'T SHOUT AT ME.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:41 AM

Speaking of being quiet and not shouting . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM

"So what do you think? True? False?"

Whether we 'think' it is True or False has no bearing on whether it happened or not...


MUDCAT RULE OF DEBATE ON BS THREADS - RULE NO 1:

"The amount of hot air produced is in inverse proportion to the amouont of material to be burnt."

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:56 PM

Foolestroupe I absolutely agree with your point, and on the question of "true or false" I am not bothered.

But a serious issue has emerged during the course of this thread, of people running up campaigns to 'do something about it'.

That's a seperate point which I believe should be tackled head on.

I have a deeep abiding distaste for kangaroo courts, witchhunts and lynch mobs.

I deplore the sanctioning of any campaign to take the livelihood of a person away from them based on unfounded allegations.

And where I encounter it I will speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 05:13 PM

> But a serious issue has emerged during the course of this thread, of people running up campaigns to 'do something about it'.   

Not everyone who expresses an opinion has any intention of "doing anything" further. (I don't, for one.) But we have the right to free speech and free thought. There are some valid questions which have been asked and never answered, and it is fair to raise them - please don't confuse that with activism, or distort things by blanket accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:14 PM

Well I'm obviously not talking about you then ...

Just as I obviously wasn't commenting about your shouting - you will find the intended recipient of my response on that issue quoted in my post of 27 Apr 08 - 06:14 AM

There are people other than you on this thread who disagree with me and some have stated that they intend to 'do something'

This thread has grown from a website that exists for the purpose of running a campaign to 'do something'.

I have neither the time nor the energy to waste accusing you of something you haven't done.

I disagree with that approach as you will note if you actually get round to reading anything I have posted.

I have no interest in misrepresenting you or anyone else.

If you read back through the thread you will find that the links and some posters are all about 'doing something'.

I have made no blanket accusations, just responded to what has been written and the main website upon whose 'information' this whole thread was based.

There is a single specific issue which you Bonnie seem completely oblivious to as you stumble aimlessly about intermittently dropping weak 'insights' and 'witticisms' on the subject of what I personally may or may not do.

Has this artist done something wrong? we don't know.

Do we therefore have the right to call judgement on him and pass sentence? No!

Is this important? Yes.

Why? Because there are people who have stated that they would like to do something to shut him down and take away his livelihood.

Are they justified in doing anything without any evidence of wrongdoing? Absolutely not!

What are your views on that?

And as for this swathe of online information you mention, if you have found one website that gives us any more real information than our imaginations have so far managed to concoct then feel free to post a link.

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: Bee
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:20 PM

Lox, you keep talking like a reasonable person - bound to get you yelled at. Tsk!

Subject: RE: BS: Starving a dog to death publicly = art?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:45 AM

MUDCAT RULE OF DEBATE ON BS THREADS - RULE NO 2:

Never be unbiased. Remember that if you sit on the fence, the bigoted bastards from BOTH sides get clear shots at you!