recording device required

Subject: recording device required
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM

Could anyone recommend any sort of small, unobtrusive digital type recording device. I'm after such a thing to record tunes at sessions etc and am at aloss as to what could do the job.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,Blackford John
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

Zoom make a digital recording device that I am told gives great results.



Cheers

John

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Arkie
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

Charley, this was recently discussed on Mudcat. Check the following link. There is at least one other thread. I had this one marked so it was simple to find.

Digital Recorder

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Sean Belt
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

I've been using a Zoom H2 for a couple of months now and have found it to be a terrific piece of equipment for the price.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM

I have a Zoom H4, it's good!

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Alan Day
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:17 PM

I am happy with my Zoom 4
I have recently recorded a tune on it.If you wish to have an MP3 of the recording just send me your Email address.It was recording about 600mm away with me on Jeffries concertina.
Al

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:30 PM

I used my shiny new Zoom4 to record the gig last night with Excellent results , though it may be a little bulky for unobtrusve session recording ! Olympus do a TINY recorder that gives good results if you just want to have the tunes to learn from !!

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Darowyn
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:20 PM

I get good results from the inbuilt mic on a Zen MP3 player- and it's the size of a credit card.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:25 PM

The Edirol R09 is used by many here, as well.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:54 PM

Zoom H4 for me too, although the H2 is just as good for straight recording without the bells & whistles. H4 advice - ditch the black nose for outdoor work & use a large-diaphragm foam wind-shield instead (which the H4 can just about fit inside!). The card eject can be a bit of a fiddle too - and don't get me started on the velcro shoe! But otherwise I love it.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 09:20 AM

I've visited the Zoom website, but it's not clear to me what the device actually does. What kind of recordings does it make? mp3? wav? audio?

If I have a computer and a CD burner, will it make a CD that can be played in a CD player, such as the one in my car?

Some people may laugh, but I prefer the familiarity and convenience of "a round thing" such as a CD to anything else. (Thanks to columnist Dave Barry for the 'round thing' terminology. Vinyl records, cassette tapes and CD's are all rounds things.)

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Arkie
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:14 AM

Leenia, I think the Zoom H2 or H4 record in either MP3 or Wav format and files are stored on a flash card which can be used to transfer the files to your computer where you can edit if desired and burn to a CD.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: danensis
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM

I use an iriver T50

John

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:06 PM

I find the Zoom H2 is excellent for recording sessions and song fests (putting it in the middle of the room and using all four mics), and playback of practice ("The song feels good, but how does it sound?"). I also use it as a sort of "sketch-pad" for stuff I want to record seriously later, on more expensive gear.

The manual and the menus may seem a bit intimidating at first, but that's because it's very versatile. After playing with it for a couple of days, I found it very easy to use. I use it for the same kind of stuff that I used to use a small, battery-operated cassette recorder for, but the sound quality and versatility of the Zoom H2 is truly amazing for something only a little larger than a pack of king-size cigarettes. Comes with a whole bunch of accessories:   USB cable, ear-buds, little screw-on mic stand, other stuff.   I love it!

I got mine for under $200, and spent an extra $30 for a 4GB flashcard. With the highest quality setting (WAV, 24 bit, 96 kHz), you can record for 1 hour and 55 minutes. At the lowest setting, (MP3, 64 kbps), it'll go for 138 hours and 53 minutes!! Again, that's with the 4 GB card. Two AA batteries will last for maybe 4+ hours of continuous recording, though. But it does come with an AC adaptor.

Small and neat enough to sit in a shirt pocket and bootleg record a concert with, but nobody here would do anything naughty like that, right?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:37 PM

I conclude that it doesn't make a CD, just something to play in an mp3 player, right?

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:51 PM

As Don explained above, with a 4Gb SD card the H4 can record nearly 138 hours of MP3 quality or nearly two hours of CD quality.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:03 PM

No, you can use it to make a CD.

It records digitally on the same kind of memory card that digital cameras use. The Zoom H2 records in either WAV or MP3. From there, you can download it to your computer's hard drive with a USB cable. Then, you can do pretty much anything you want with it. Edit it using music editing software, change formats if you wish, burn it to a data CD or a music CD.

Commercial CDs are recorded in CDA format, so to burn it to a CD and play it on regular equipment, it may be necessary to convert it from WAV to CDA, which you can do on the computer. Format conversion software is available on the internet free for the download.

So there are a couple of steps involved. But I don't think there is an easier, less expensive way of recording something and putting it on a CD to listen to.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:35 AM

I bought a Zoom H2 a couple of weeks back and can concur that it's a belting bit of equipment. I've been using it record a couple of local jazz bands. While there's obviously some difficulties over balance and background noise, the quality of reproduction is just incredible.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:39 PM

'Commercial CDs are recorded in CDA format, so to burn it to a CD and play it on regular equipment, it may be necessary to convert it from WAV to CDA, which you can do on the computer. Format conversion software is available on the internet free for the download.'

Thank you, Don dear. That is crystal-clear. 'CDA' was the term I needed to know.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:14 PM

So is there any advantage in buying an 8gb card over a 4gb - say, if I'm going away for a few weeks and can't get to a computer in that time?

Also - does one ask for a Zoom sound card, or is it just plain sound card?

Ta
Sue

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Declan
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:36 PM

I have an Edirol R09 and would recommend it from a sound quality point of view. It has very good built in mics and handy one (well two actually) touch recording and can record in .Wav or .mp3 and I think other formats.

Negative points are I think its relatively expensive, not that unobtrusive (I think of it as the size of a shaver) and when its recording it has a bright red light on it - not great for making sneaky recordings but I know none of us would want to do that anyway!

Mine can't handle an SD card bigger than 2 gigs, but its now about 14 months old - newer versions may be able to handle the larger cards.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:37 PM

Actually, it's a flash card.

SanDisk.

At that price, you can buy a couple of them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Declan
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:50 PM

Don,

Not sure if your post was a response to mine.

If so I can confirm that my Edirol (which being over a year old is probably already obsolete technology) requires an SD card of less than two gB. The high capacity SD cards can handle 4 gB upwards but do not work in my machine. Buying multiple 2 gB cards is obviously an option but a bit of a pain if you have to change them in mid recording.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From:
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:23 PM

I have both an Edirol R-09 and the Zoom H-4 devices.

Edirol is Smaller than the H-4 but not smaller than the H2.

Two things the Edirol has over the H-4, and I assume the same with the H-2 are:

1) The Edirol stores files with a time-date stamp to enable you to keep track of the files and when they wer recorded
2) The Edirol has a recording level control which available right away. The H-4 has it buried in some menus.

The Edirol can record on SD cards up to 4G in size.   I think the Zoom has the same limit. Both are software upgradeable by downloading the proper file and loading the file onto a memory card and starting up the device in the proper way to update. Both are good. Reasonable in usage. The R-09 comes in other oolours besides black. I think the H-4 only comes in the silver/chrome plastic oolour. Please do a search in the Mudcat using Google and it'll bring up some of the other threads on the same topic.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From:
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:04 PM

Oh the size of the memory card can be changed by upgrading. Go to Edirol's site and download the appropriate file. Instructions on doing the upgrade are there as well and are easy to follow.

The both save in both Wave and MP3 formats. Wave files are either 16 bit or 24 bit. Some programs balk at trying to load the 24 bit and says it's a corrupted file. The MP3 can be created in anything from 64kps up to 320kps going from lowest to highest quality.

Once you have saved the file, renamed it so you know what it is. The default naming the devices do are not very explanatory. Anyway, once the files are stored, any software capable of burning CDs should be able to create a CD which is playable on standard CD players or ones which play CDs and MP3s. Check them out at their home web-sites.

Edirol R-09
Zoom

Note the R-09 has been upgraded to handle 8G SDHC cards as well.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From:
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:15 PM

Just chedked the H4 site and they can use up to a 16G SDHC cards.

Zoom H2
Zoom H4

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:52 PM

My post about the 4 GB SanDisk card was in response to suegorgeous's post.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Declan
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:27 AM

George,

Thanks for the information about upgrading the Edirol.

I'll give it a try later.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM

The new Edirol R-09HR is excellent Edirol R-09HR

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:45 AM

I had a lot of problems initially trying to sort out the computer compatability with my Zoom 4.
Zoom 4 card needs upgrading to a higher volume card,as soon as you get it . I use mine in conjunction with a card reader "Sandisk" this was the turning point for me I can delete recordings easily ,down load them as MP3s to post off etc.
For a non computer person this sorted out all my problems.
Al

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:07 PM

If you're looking for studio quality sound, these small, hand-held digital recorders do fall a bit short. They are very good. They're great for evaluating practice or recording song fests and such, in the same way that a lot of people (including me) used a small, battery-operated cassette recorder. And their sound quality is far superior to the little cassette recorders. They are used a lot for field recording, including by broadcast news reporters for on-the-spot interviews and such.

But the weakest link in these recorders is (are?) the in-built microphones. Since they are built in, refinements of mic placement and such are difficult or impossible to achieve. Most of them do have a 1/8" input for an external mic, but that's still not going to give you studio quality. Samson made the attempt by equipping their Zoom H4 recorder with two XLR mic connectors, and I gave that some serious consideration before I read in a number of reviews that this recorder—and another small digital recorder I considered, the Marantz PMD660, that also has XLR inputs—has noisy preamps. The gizmos are just too small to have all of the electronics necessary to produce studio quality sound. But—for what they are intended, they are excellent.

I went ahead and got the Zoom H2, which is considerably less expensive than others on the market. I use this as a replacement for my little Panasonic cassette recorder, which it blows off the table in terms of sound quality, size, and versatility.

If you want studio quality, you need to go with something a little less portable. I'd suggest that you beg, borrow, or steal a copy of the "Roger McGuinn's Guide to Home Recording on a Computer" DVD (about $20). His lash-up is about as simple as it can get—a couple of good mics, an analog-to-digital converter that connects with his laptop computer, and a good, big external hard-drive. You can produce studio quality recordings with this gear, because McGuinn and a lot of other people are doing it.

In fact, I just bought two home brewed CDs yesterday, produced by people I know, on computer-based equipment similar to McGuinn's, and the sound quality is as good as any CD you can buy from Tower Records or from Amazon, with a well-known record company label on it.

In addition to getting the Zoom H2, I've recently equipped myself with some gadgets similar to what McGuinn uses on the DVD, and I'm learning to use it.

I use the Zoom H2 as a sort of "practice / rehearsal aid," and to record song fests. Neat, tidy, easy to use. And I can burn what I record on it to CDs if I want. The quality may not be quite up to commercial CD, but it's not bad, and unless a person is a recording engineer or has a very sophisicated ear, they probably couldn't tell the difference.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Declan
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM

I've successfully upgraded the software on my Edirol and the hitherto useless (to me) 4Gb HCSD card is now working perfectly just in time for festival season. Many thanks again to George et al for the info provided on this thread.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM

Thanks, Don. I've sent for Don McGuinn's CD from Amazon.

Tell me, what exactly is 'a good, big external hard-drive'? Is it a piece computer innards sitting nude on a table with wires coming out of it?

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Nick
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:12 PM

Cheap as chips

Music eats space when you start recording stuff so get as big as you can afford.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 06:38 PM

Yeah, leeneia, Nick has it. It's a hard drive that connects to your computer through a USB port. The computer recognizes it as just another hard drive when it's plugged in. McGuinn said (on the DVD) that his was 80 GB, which was pretty big when the DVD was made. The one I got is 500 GB. Lots of storage, not only for music. but for other stuff as well. But music files can get big.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 09:54 AM

Thanks. It's nice to understand this stuff. I have a friend who used to be a service person for IBM, so I can turn to her for assistance if we start recording in earnest. In fact, she's the one who most wants us to record our playing.

We are not the only ones interested in this. In 1995, we had a burglary at our house. The thieves stole an ancient microwave and anything which was capable of making a recording. (I was so grateful that they weren't interested in my guitar.)

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: rabbitlegs
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM

Last time this cropped up on a thread I mentioned the Boss Micro BR, I now have one and like it a lot. Files can be used on it's bigger relatives and it'll fit in your pocket. Try this website
http://microrecorders.org/index.html

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Nick
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 06:55 PM

The only slightly irritating thing with the Zoom is the time it takes to start up if it it is reasonably full up (I have a 4Gb card) so I download stuff off it often - hence the need for a big hard drive.

It also seems quite slow to download

But they are minor irritations far outweighed by the positives.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From:
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 08:00 PM

Thanks, Declan. That's why we have the Forum to help answer these questions that don't occur. - I've learned a lot over the years here at Mudcat. Just return the favour when you can help answer someone else's question.

I agree with Don, these aren't Studio Quality devices, but none of us expected that. They're all wonderful and exceed expectations of what you can do with electronic gadgets this small.

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: open mike
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:56 PM

has anyone had experience with Roland's Edirol R-1?

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:02 PM

So suppose I'm interested in recording the music of my friends, as played in my living room. Don and Nick say that recordings take a lot of space. If I record about 30 minutes of music and move it to a CD, do I still need a separate hard drive?

Subject: RE: recording device required
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 08 - 10:21 PM

If you were to record to WAV files on the highest setting the Zoom H2 has (24 bit, 98 kHz), you can record just a smidgen under two hours on a 4 GB flash card (according to the chart on the box the Zoom H2 comes it). I presume that it wouldn't take up any more space on your hard drive when you download the contents of the flash card than it takes on the flash card itself.   Example:   my laptop's hard drive is 80 GB. With about 30 GB worth of software and miscellaneous documents and other stuff, I still have about 50 GB of free space.

If you were to record to WAV files at what is listed as "CD quality" (16 bit, 44.1 kHz), you could record about six and a half hours worth of stuff and still be within 4 GB.

If you were to record to MP3 files at the lowest quality setting (still not that bad), you could record for five and a half days straight!! And still be within the 4 GB limit! If you were to do that, though, you'd better use the AC adaptor because a pair of AA batteries will run the Zoom H2 for about four hours before they poop out.

If you want to do a lot of editing (which, wisely, would involve making copies of what you've recorded so you can edit the copies and leave the originals as is, just in case you screw up the editing and want to start again), then you do need space to play in.

Click on "My Computer," right-click on 'Local Disk," then click on "Properties" and it will tell you how big your hard drive is and how much free space you've got on it (spells it out in numbers and also shows you a neat little graphic representation).

Don Firth