Tight Folkies

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

Because he was offering a service to the festival free of charge. Jesus, is it really too much to expect for people to buy a cup of coffee or tea or a bottle of water? The fact that there's so much 'defence' of the skinflints on this thread simply enhances what I originally said.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:33 AM

Even when meeting in my local before going to a session or whatever, I always buy a drink, even if it is a half of coke. To take your own drinks to a pub, as in this case, is just rude.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:40 AM

...................& some venue's beer is horrible!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

This was 8am. They weren't serving beer.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

MAxwell'S SH - Actually, if he made the arrangement with the group involved ~ "My point Liz, is that he was approached by someone (I don't know who) that wanted to use the room(s) for singing and dance practice. Now I know it wasn't by the committee. It was by somebody that wanted to use them for respective song and dance groups." ~ then he wasn't offering a service to the FESTIVAL free of charge. Your own words indicate that it was a private arrangement between himself and the organiser of the dance groups. His and your beef is with that organiser and not with folkies in general. I'm not into 'name and shame in public' but this person responsible for their group, needs to learn respect and good manners.

In every group of people, be they folkies, firemen or fan tailed pigeon fanciers, you will get people who do not want to pay their way. You will get people who can afford to but don't - how else do you think they got rich? You'll get people who can afford to but don't like to flash their cash around in case they get take advantage of. You'll get people who can afford to but don't see why they should have to and you'll get people who can't afford to but pay it back in other ways.

I am not defending skinflints... especially people who baulk their rounds, never offer to pay for anything and then boast about how much they've saved.... but I will defend those who genuinely do not have enough to make extravagant gestures or spend unecessarily and I think you are wrong to generalise folkies that way and tar us all with the same brush.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:56 AM

LtS,

Hear,hear!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

I'm not tarring anyone with the same brush Liz but if the cap fits.......... :-) I'm 50 now and have been going to festivals since I was 9 with my parents. I've seen this kind of thing so often. It's the same brigade that moan about the prices at folk clubs. They want the function room for sweet FA and then moan about an extra 10p on a pint.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Blowz
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:44 AM

And if, as MSH suggests, out of 45 people, the landlord only sold 4 coffees - it does seem as if there was a puzzlingly large percentage of won'ts or can'ts there. I must admit - if i was called to a practise at 8am, i would have needed more than 4 coffees myself, just to get through it!!

A lot of the time, landlords are 'persuaded' to make venues available, free of charge, on the back of the extra income they will make. If they don't then make that income, they won't think - oh, that was surely a mis-representative sample of people i had there. They will just think 'it's not worth my while doing this'.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM

No problem with spending a few bob in Ireland those traveling food poisoners with their cram-burgers and rubber sausages, make a pile of money, Pinkerton couldn`t find the ham in the sandwiches.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

and barely a thank you Blowz.........

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM

If the folk venue is in a room hired out by the pub, doesn't that mean they are making money twice over? Once on the rent and again on the booze? I think the price of the ale etc should come down if that is the case.

My opinion of course.


Sal

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:29 PM

Not right, Sal. If you want beer at bar prices, sit and drink it in the bar. If you rent a function room, you pay for the function room space, not for the beer cellar or the drink coolers or the bar staff salaries - those are covered by the beer price, which has therefore to remain the same. Sure, you bring more punters in and increase beer sales, so you might be able to negotiate better rates for yourself. The keyword here is "negotiate", and that means beforehand.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

The Plough raked in £35000 during folk week - then closed it's doors to tighfisted folkies...........

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

...even tight-fisted ones!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

The person who started this thread obviously has a personal axe to grind. Best thing to do is ignore her/him.

G

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM

If he/she has an axe, certainly!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:53 PM

Dear Giok , Please feel free to ignore me. Nothing would make me happier. I'd prefer you not to advise others to though. Surely, that's for them to decide,

Lowden, I had already stated that booze wasn't an issue. That's the one thing that 'most' folkies have no problem spebding money on.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

Maxwell is right to raise the issue if it upset his friend (who I hope made some money at other times during the festival btw).The publican should have dropped some subtle hints in the song and dance troupe's direction .When people are serious enough to start rehearsing at 8am ,they do tend to be focused on getting their acts together , but they should all at least have said thank you - particularly the person who arranged the venue. I'm sure they would have done if they knew the publican was doing them a good turn. Folkies may or not be tight ,but they do tend to be quite polite . I wasn't at Whitby mysef ,but please say thanks to your friend for his services to folk music on my behalf Max .

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 03:53 PM

If we were to ignore every issue that may or may not have an agenda attached to it, well, there'd be nothing left to say. Max certainly has raised a legitimate issue here.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Ythanside
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:47 PM

MSH, 28 Apr 08 - 9:23 AM -- 'The fact that there's so much 'defence' of the skinflints on this thread simply enhances what I originally said.'

Really? What a wonderful example of Orwellian logic.

You wouldn't consider that the reason for 'so much 'defence'' might be that many people happen to disagree with what you said originally?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:22 PM

Just like Bush's logic on the WMDs

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM

Folk music is supposed to be "the people's music" (which may be an arguable point), but the idea has always more or less been that it was "homegrown" entertainment, and an alternative to "commericial" entertainment--and a lot of people feel like it, and everything connected with it, should always be as close to free as practically possible. Given the nature of our world, this can be very amusing at times.

People periodically invited our band to play for events with the idea that we would do it without charge, because it was "folk music"--and occasionally someone would become irate when we quoted our fee.

In this same vein, I knew a performer who was booked regularly by a certain individual for a particular organization's special events--one day, she got a call from another person from the organization who booked another of the events. When she finished, and requested her pay, she was told that the booker had always assumed there was no fee because it was folk music.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:48 PM

Tight fisted folkies at Sidmouth a few years back only managed Forty Grand turnover at The Newt and (I Think) 250 Grand at the Anchor in Festival week ! I must check what the other Live Music Bars did to keep the wolf from the door .

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 01:03 AM

Leadfingers - there you go........... beer again! I've already made that point - TWICE!

Ythanside - Of course I accept that those people disagree with me! Why? Maybe I touched a nerve.

Mavomick - He didn't do it for the money and was happy to stand a loss (they take a small fortune all year round anyway). He did it because he was approached and ASKED to do it. His gripe was simply that the gesture wasn't there. Thanks for your remarks too.

Now, various people have made various excuses but, at the end of the day, the fact remains that 45 people turned up for practice and only 4 people bought a coffee. Considering that he bothered to open up for them and lay on staff as well, my point is that the very least they could have done was to support him in some small way as he had done for them.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:29 AM

There you go again. One instance and the world is tarred.

Thread drift ensures that others want to defend the "world" and we come back to the singular. There is a mismatched of communication here.

Landlords take a punt and get it wrong. A group want a venue and don't explain why in detail. It could all be sorted if people talk - at length - but verbal contracts don't work that way - lawyers get rich on the written kind. You want them involved?

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:37 AM

Have you ever thought that the coffee was crap, as is the case at most places in the UK? Maybe thats why only 4 coffee's were purchased.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 02:38 AM

Lawyers involved? Yes, if needs be!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:12 AM

I have to confess villan that the coffee in there is really crap. Surely you can't go wrong with tea or bottled water though!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:31 AM

I'm sure the Plough would love to welcome folkies, tight-fisted or otherwise, but as it is a Sam Smiths pub is not allowed to have music of any description on the premises - company policy.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:04 AM

In fairness I think the organsiser is the one at fault.
If you book a room on the understanding that food and drink cannot be brought onto the premises for consumption and that you must purchase from the pub, then thats fair enough.
How many of the 45 people knew that? For them its a working session and just like when you go to work, most people will take their food and drink with them.
Likewise, the owner should have made it clear right from the start on the day that only food and drink purchased on the premises was allowed and enforced it.

Sounds to me that the people at the top on both sides didn't do a very good job.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:18 AM

Ended up buying several books from Fokliedave (I presume it was you - Helperby Fiddler is wonderful!),

Not me, I haven't been to Whitby for many a year. Clearly an imposter. I shall eventually catch up with the person, never fear. (I only do S/hand books - more or less).

I just want to make sure I am understanding SRS correctly. You went into a restaurant and started eating your own food?????

What an excellent idea. I think I'll try it in my local pub. After all it's a prosperous place. I'll get some beer in the supermarket where it's about half the price and drink it in the pub.

It might start a trend.

On the other hand I might get asked to leave. And trust me on this one, the landlord will not be embarassed. This is Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

So, apart from the one unusual incident (which I think we've just about squeezed dry), there appears to be some sort of consensus: folkies do spend a lot of money, but on beer rather than other things.

Given that the other things at festivals are often tat stalls or overpriced food stalls selling inferior food, perhaps they've got it right!

Given the enthusiasm shown by landlords round my way for setting up folk and ale weekends (which are becoming increasingly popular), I don't think they regard folkies as skinflints!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:00 AM

As I suggested in my much earlier post.....Landlords open up rooms hoping to make a killing from the people who use it. Perhaps it would be fair to say that they are the ones who should be sure of what they are letting themselves in for before being too hasty....as I believe the Landlord mentioned at the start of the thread was.
He hoped to make money...the Folkies for whatever reason...did not spend it....life can be tough sometimes...for us all!!!!

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:03 PM

If you are going to insist that people in your premises drink and eat only what is available in your premises, then it is wise to make sure that what you offer is palatable - MSH has admitted that the coffee is horrible. If a place can't make good coffee, then people may be a little reticent about ordering something more substantial which has the potential to be a) inedible and b) expensive.

Having said that, I do think that the person who asked for the room should have made some effort to thank the landlord for his generous offer. I suspect he didn't know the extra staff had been got in especially.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: the button
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 04:57 PM

"folk and ale weekends"

This made me laugh out loud. Must be something to do with my accent. Folk and ale, is that the time?

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Codpiece
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 05:30 PM

Tight as a fishes' arse. Shanty singers that is.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 11:13 PM

I think that the story speaks for itself--and the responses pretty much proves the point--the ranks of folk music are full of pennypinching cheapskates.

The belief that he intended to make some kind of killing off folkies is a mindset that I know only too well--truth be told, had he sold coffee and/or water to everyone, he would not have made enough money to cover the costs of opening up at 8am, an despite efforts to claim the contrary, I am sure he had little thought of profit--his idea was simply that most normal humans would have bought coffee or whatever out of hand, without need for being prodded--we live in a society of joyful consumers, after all.

And though I am sure SRS' story was just an awkward situation--I have heard many stories about folkies bringing bag lunches into restaurants and beverages into bars, not withstanding health ordinances or social customs.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:51 AM

Thank you M.Ted for your comments. I know for a fact that it was the principle that got to him. He doesn't need a few measly pounds to help him along. His bar is hugely successful. It was simply the fact that HE'D BEEN APPROACHED to do this. Many people are STILL missing the point about this (Georgian Silver) - "He hoped to make money" He couldn't have given a toss about making money - "Landlords open up rooms hoping to make a killing etc" Again, he couldn't have given a toss. His gesture was to open his two very large rooms , having been approached to do so, so that certain people that attended folk week could use his facilities (as requested) to practise their singing and dancing. All he asked in return was a gesture by those people to buy something. Now, perhaps I'm just exceedingly extravagant, but I reckon that I might have just dipped my hand into my pocket and bought a bacon buttie and a cup of tea (SHOCK - HORROR)as a way of saying thank you. God, is this really TOO much to ask? I certainly wouldn't have taken a flask with me! If you disagree with this, that's fine, but how on Earth do any of you that do disagree expect any publican in Whitby to open their doors early in future so that you, or any of your acquantances can have the privelage of using their facilities, Whitby's a small town and word gets around. I

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 04:56 AM

Yes indeed, button. That was unintentional!

If my memory serves me well, they started a couple of festivals in East Anglia some years ago called "Norfolk and Good" and "Suffolk and Good"!

(By the way, I think the incident referred to above has been well and truly squeezed dry now!)

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Blowz
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

I agree that the incident has probably been gone into quite thoroughly - but I would just like to mention one thing, which hasn't been commented on - I have to disagree with Georgiansilver and his comments about landlords seeking to make a killing etc ... if this bloke runs a busy pub, it should be remembered that he would have probably been working until round about midnight (probably later) the previous night and have had to get the place cleaned up and presentable ready for business the next day. If he'd agreed to open up at 8am, instead of the usual (say) 11am, that would have meant all that work would have had to be done the night before, rather than in the morning. It's not just a case of opening the doors ... yes, the cleaning has to be done anyway, but the routine would have had to be reorganised to accommodate the early opening.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:13 AM

O.K.......so some don't agree with the Landlords hopes as I see them!
Why would he bring in two members of staff if he did not think he would need them for 45 people?. I'm sorry folkies but the Landlord was expecting to make money out of the venture or he would not have opened and certainly not have brought in two staff!
I do totally agree that some thanks should have been levied and maybe even a whip-round for the staff for being there but I stick to my opinion on the Landlords motives.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,blowz
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:17 AM

probably because he would need one member of staff to man the premises and I would guess that 'lone working policies', as part of his risk assessment mean that you can't have one member of staff working alone, you need two ...

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Maxwell's Silver Hammer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

Georgian Silver, I have told you the FACTS. I don't care what you THINK! I guess that some people are simply beyond reason. Good luck in your pathetic attempt to justify the stinginess of this miserly crew and may you spend many happy hours counting the money you save at the expense of those with a good heart.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

So, apart from the one unusual incident (which I think we've just about squeezed dry), there appears to be some sort of consensus: folkies do spend a lot of money, but on beer rather than other things.

I'd disagree, at least in terms of regular events I've been to - festivals might be different. These events have tended to pull in a small number of participants getting together from reasonable distances (may just be the nearest villages or towns but can be further) and driving is often involved and those that are driving are not drinking loads of beer.

Then there are those who will limit themselves to say a pint or two because they find more interferes with their singing and/or playing. Of the rest, there often people who wouldn't otherwise go to a pub and perhaps don't drink.

I've rarely seen the (at least participation) folk contingent do much in the way of contributing to a pubs turnover of drinks by their own consumption. While there are exceptions and some places do seem to do exceptionally well, I feel often it's the other customers' willingness to tolerate (or we hope enjoy) us or perhaps a spare room that's doing nothing but just needs a light turned on
that makes it worth a landlord's while.

And yes, some landlords can see be big profits from folk and be dissapointed when this doesn't materialise. Usually one just gets "moved on" but I can even think of cases where landlords have moved in extra entertainment we couldn't cope with volume wise on the folk night:


Parade Llandudno - asked to miss a night for a rock group. Club moved to the London instead.
Old Vaults Bangor - new landlord wanted the passing night club trade - blazing disco music - moved to Menai Bridge (couldn't find a place in Bangor at the time)
Four Crosses Menai Bridge (a couple of years and a change of landlord) - Reggae night - moved back to Bangor (fairly recent "Irish Bar - O'Sheas - in a previous existance it had been the Kings, the venue used before a move to the Old Vaults was forced).
Temple Bar Norwich - wide screen football - moved to the Nelson


Jon

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Howard
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

Why is it considered so unreasonable that a landlord, who has a business to run, should expect to make a bit of money out of it?

He'd told the organisers what was expected of them in return for the use of the room. He was expecting to serve a large number of people and put on the staff to do so. The people turned up and didn't comply with their side of the bargain. Straightforward breach of contract.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM

Of course a landlord needs to make money... Sometimes they do expect more from folk events than they achieve... I've no comment on the case you say was a breach of contract.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:26 AM

I'd be interested to know, though, what people's expectations are in terms of the *number* of festivals they would be going to? Me, I'm happy to go to one festival a year that is run well, where I know there'll be a decent amount of space, and I'll save up however much it'll cost to buy the ticket, go there, eat and drink (a lot), and maybe buy a couple of CDs from a stall.

It'd be nice to see concessions offered at festivals for the unemployed and pensioners though.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM

Oh, also I don't think folkies are any tighter than any other musical tribe. I've put on a lot of informal jazz gigs in bars in obscure corners of London where people have appeared to be genuinely surprised when I've asked for door money. Or where people have said things like 'oh I've only got 4, is that alright?' when the posters clearly said £5, and this does not appear to impede their hands having drinks in them throughout the night. Or when a hell of a lot of the audience ask for concessions but conveniently don't have their card on them. You let them in at that price anyway cos you're a nice person and not a very good businessman. But it seems frankly statistically unlikely.

I would also add that, while I strongly sympathise with landlords doing their best to support live music and facing an uphill struggle in terms of lack of returns from non-drinkers, there are just as many landlords who've said to me things like "hmmm, I think you should only charge £4 entrance, not £6, as it's only a Wednesday night" when they are charging me around £60 for the use of their room. Pointing out that, funnily enough, you'd quite like to actually pay the musicians something, and that you also wouldn't mind at least breaking even on your own invested money and time, doesn't seem to make much difference. It has quite often elicited a kind of look that's half amazement, half pity at the fact that you're actually paying musicians at all who haven't brought 50+ people.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

from the initial post:

'He gave the premesis up for free on the condition that, naturally, people bought his drinks and food. It was made clear beforehand that this was the condition. He sold, out of a total of 45 people, 4 coffees! The rest had tap water, and some even had the audacity to bring flasks! Nobody bought so much as a bacon sandwich.'

That all sounds a little too pat to me. Is it an urban tale?

It has been my impression over the last 20 years, that folkies and tasty food go together quite well - witness the food thread in the BS section here.

Subject: RE: Tight Folkies
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:01 AM

I am all for carrying this discussion on, though it may seem trivial, because it highlights a pervasive mindset in the "folk world", that isolates it, and the people who perform in it, from the wider world of entertainment.