Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 May 08 - 03:11 PM

Well there are those that can and those that either teach or criticize. It'sn't that how the old saying goes?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 May 08 - 03:05 PM

I ain't done
I got more bones to pick & more axes to grind.

I'm gonna use you Deb C as an example, hope you don't mind but you'll help to make my point.

Deb & others don't get bill at certian "Folk" venuse cause they don't write songs!!!
She & performers like her are "conduits of folk", they are a pipeline!
Now I've seen & heard Deb many times from around a living room to concerts stage, to coffee house setting. She's good, very good. So she doesn't write contemporary songs,,,,,,,,but she picks them like fruit from a hosts of trees with the heart of migrant worker. She uses her personnal tastes to chose them, maybe with input from others sometimes I don't know. She performes those songs & to me it seems that her audiences loves what she picks & does. They sing right along or are listening intently on the edge of their chairs & it's a full applause when she's done, weither it's traditional or contemporary. So it should behove the folk premoter to hire her on because it seems that she's got something that makes her bettter able to judge what "folk songs" her contemporary writers have written that the lovers of folk music want to hear. If she's picked out a song from one of those that the Boston FF is presenting I'm more apt to want to hear that singer if Deb sings her songs than what the fest premoter says about the songwriter. If Deb chooses a song to preform, she knows after awhile if it's a keeper or not, she has the sounding board that others don't, she also has the knack & hunch of what's good. If she errored in a choice of a song, she knows when to drop it, even if she loves to sing it. She is not the one who makes the final choice but she is one of the ones who has the gift & talent to bring it out & showcase it to the community. You kill off preformers like her & you eventually kill off the very songwriters that you're trying to support, it is preformers like her that will give good songwriters the exposure they deserve. It's fine for the SS to showcase their baggage but if others aren't gonna run with it they might as well be pissing into the wind, cause if others aren't gonna run with it, it's a sure bet it's not good enough.

Thanks Deb for my use of you, please forgive me (I did enjoy myself though, Hee,Hee).

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 May 08 - 02:56 PM

Generally I play and sing for myself, if the audience wants to come along for the ride, fine, if they don't well that's up to them.

As I stated in an earlier post to Deb Cowan
"I play what I play on the instruments of MY choosing, not the choosing of those who presume to know better than me (and usually don't).

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 May 08 - 02:35 PM

When one goes to sessions, parties, songswaps, singalongs, clubs, concerts etc. & hear's the likes of folks singing the songs of contemporary artists it's a clue that, that artist may be on to something. Aside from the many traditional songs I sing I also sing songs written by Si Kahn, Ewan MacColl, Archie Fisher, Stan Rogers, Richard Thompson, Martin Grabe, Steve Tillson, Paul Siebel, Badger Clark, Kate Wolfe, Peter Bellamy, Lyle Lovett, Mike Harding, and a whole host of others. I hear other folks singing songs from contemporary artists. AAAAND I hear others singing along, they also know & enjoy these songs. This may not be a scientific approach but if no one else is singing your songs off stage or singing along except for maybe a few friends &/or another contemporary stage performer then I don't think that your songs cut it as what might make it into the contemporary folk song catagorary. You can't call yourself a folk singer or a writer of folksongs, the common folk will take care of that, they will deceide if your songs are worth singing. Just cause one stands on a stage & has a great voice (BTW the 2 I saw Friday night had fantastic voices BUT) & plays an accoustic instrument talks a folkie talk & walks the walk doesn't mean that crowd is gonna take your songs to heart & start singing them BUT when they do, when one's songs start popping up at different places & are being sung by a host of others, when someone starts looking for the words to your song on the internet cause they want to sing it.
Yrs ago 30 ? I heard a woman get asked at a session if she'd sing one of her songs. I had no idea who she was I was new to the area but they all seemed to know her. She asked if it was alright if she tried out a new one of her own & the players/singers were very incourging. It seems that this was played out a few times before. She sang the song, it was great, it was one worth stealing. Before she was done others were trying to join in then after, asking if she'd do one more. That was Kate Wolfe, the stuff she wrote gets sung by many. Will she be considered a folk singer, a writer of folk songs? It certinally seems that way. She doesn't write from any perticular tradition but she wrote in such a way that it very much appealed to those that loved to sing & hear folk songs. So it's not up to a permoter, radio station, festival, or the songwriter themselves. We will be your judge, if we sing your songs & sing along to them, no matter who sings them, then let someone bill you as a songwriter who does "folk" otherwise you're a singer/songwriter & today you're a dime a dozen.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 May 08 - 01:22 PM

99.9% of Americans don't care either Bob.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Paul Simon
Date: 03 May 08 - 01:13 PM

not sure on the percentage here

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Bob Dylan
Date: 03 May 08 - 01:07 PM

99.9% of Americans think I am folk.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:48 PM

By the way, "Tom Dooley" was collected by Anne and Frank Warner in 1938 from Frank Proffitt who learned the song from his father. And his grandmother knew Tom Dula (Tom Foster), a native of Wilkes County, on whom the song was based.

I think it was first recorded by Frank Warner on Elektra in 1952-ish.

Linn

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:38 PM

Molecatcher's Apprentice -- I was addressing the secondary definition that Ron Olesko gave

From th American Heritage Dictionary:
" 2.Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music."

So, yes, to be considered "folk" by that definition would be to write songs in the style of traditional folk music.

Otherwise the songs are pleasant maybe even interesting examples of pop music, usually performed acoustically.

Will people still be singing them in 100 years? Or are they too personal to the singer-songwriter ever to be meaningfully performed by anyone else? Do you come away from the song humming it?

And I think what we are actually arguing about is whether a festival that excludes performers that actually perform traditional music and who do not write their own material should be labeled "folk" -- and I definitely agree with Don Firth; to call it folk is mislabeling and very much open to misinterpretation. I'm a firm believer in using language as precisely and clearly as possible. That's the point of communication. And if you lose words and nuances, the language is poorer for it.

Just my additional four cents' worth (inflation).

Linn

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:38 PM

Wouldn't happen if you joined the forum instread of posting as a 'Guest', Charlotte! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:22 PM

ooops that "Guest" was me. trying to juggle paperwork and typing at the same time *LOL*

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:21 PM

Now here's one for you...I just receieved a e-mail from my dad..The Winnipeg Folk Festival (Manitoba Canada), now note the word folk there, has just announced that one of their top line acts for this year is........Ray Davies (ex-Kinks)...observational song writing anyone? ;-)

'can TEACH the rest of us about the history of not only the music but our culture'

Deb, I completely agree, much has indeed been lost already. I can only go on my experience. I always remember a quote from the English fiddle player Dave Swarbrick who once said, " would you rather play a good murder ballad on an acoustic or electric instument?" I see his point. :-)

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:15 PM

Just to clarify after 100 posts, it seems that we have two main issues -

1. The use of the word "folk music".
2. Venues and festivals that exclude traditional music.

While I am more tolerant of the use of the word "folk music", I do agree with Deb when she says that we are losing something when we exclude trad and roots music. Producing two radio programs and now booking for a venue(the Hurdy Gurdy Folk Music Club), I am always trying to straddle a line - realizing and wanting to perpetuate the traditions, and the reality that I need to do whatever I can to keep the radio program on the air and the venue operating. The sad reality is that my audience would significantly descrease if I only offered tradtional music. While there are very passionate people here at Mudcat, the numbers are not enough in the "real world" to sustain.   My only hope is that enough of us continue to make and share the music that we know has value in the hopes that audiences will be attracted and keep it alive and growing.

As for the venue, my reality is that I am spending $500 for rent, sound and insurance everytime I open the door - and that is before the cost of paying the artist and any advertising and other incidentals that might help. When we brought Mike Seeger to New Jersey, and spent months hyping and promoting the concert - we ended up with less than 60 people. Considering that we are in the NYC metro area with 15 million people within a 25 mile drive, that number is shameful. It was a memorable concert, Tony Trishka came over and joined Mike onstage and the music was incredible - but how often can we present shows like that and lose our shirt? What we are trying to do is establish our non-profit status to enable us to go after grant money that will allow us to put on shows like this.

At the same time, we are proud to honor contemporary folk music's finest. Tonight we have Eve Goldberg and Thea Hopkins in a special co-bill. Our ticket sales are slow, but we are keeping our fingers crossed. If anyone is in the vicinity of Fair Lawn, NJ tonight - come out and see us! (www.hurdygurdyfolk.org). I don't think you will have the same reaction to these performers as Barry did to the artists he saw last night.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,mb
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:12 PM

The Wumb fest has performers I'm looking forward to seeing. They can call it whatever they want. For all of you looking for that trad folk feel check out the Taunton River Folk Festival. This is it's 2nd year and will be held in Taunton Ma over the Columbus day weekend. It's got the feel of the former SMU Eistedfodd, but it features a lot more blues in the mix. Check out the sitehttp://www.tauntonfest.org/index.htm Last year's schedule is posted.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: DebC
Date: 03 May 08 - 11:59 AM

I know what you mean, Charlotte and I follow the same kind of thing. I sing songs *I* like and find interesting and I am really not concerned with someone else's definitions of said songs.

And this certainly isn't about me, I was just citing my own experience. It's about the people who, through their music can TEACH the rest of us about the history of not only the music but our culture. That is what is being lost when these venues and festivals exclude trad and roots based music.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 May 08 - 11:12 AM

Well Deb, I'd be excluded too, and have been, for *shock! horror!* daring to use electric instruments *LOL* But you know what? I ceased caring along time ago. I play what I play on the instruments of MY choosing, not the choosing of those who presume to know better than me (and usually don't).

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: DebC
Date: 03 May 08 - 11:08 AM

Oh my goodness...I posted #100!!

Hee hee,
Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: DebC
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:35 AM

This has been a great discussion, but for me it's not about what is or isn't folk, who writes good/bad songs, who is roots-based and who are the "belly-button people", etc.

It's about EXCLUSION. As a singer who doesn't write, I am excluded from many US venues and opportunities for that reason and that reason only. I hear time and again "We love your music, but we only present original songs." Don made a great example of the Seattle Folklore Society and Barry continues to say (and I agree) "don't call yourself "folk" if you are NOT including the music that is from or based in a tradition.

I know enough songs to where I can give an all traditional performance of public domain material (as Mary from Richmond can attest to) or I can give a totally contemporary songs performance, even though I didn't write those songs.

My complaint is that many fine and excellent artists who respect (and love) a musical tradition are denied INCLUSION just because they don't write songs.

And that's a darn shame.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 May 08 - 10:13 AM

Don, the problem with your analogies is that people do not consider a pepperoni pizza to be fried rice. There are many people that do feel comfortable with considering singer-songwriters "folk" and the term fits.   For the science fiction book, there are many that deal with romance - and ultimately the author is telling a story and determines what form to follow. If a bookseller places the book in the wrong section, does that change the message of the book?   As for the opthalmologist, it depends where people keep their head!!

Barry, I am sorry that you had such an awful time. I think that it is important not to generalize. There are also many traditional songs that deal with "I" and they are an important part of the canon. I'm not a fan of the self-absorbed songwriting either - I used to joke that these people should be called "singer-songwhiners". I'm sure though that you have had experience with god awful traditional musicians who may be serving up "beef", but have burnt the dish beyond all recognition and sapped all the juice and taste from it.

It is all a matter of taste and opinion. The boat has sailed - like it or not, folk music will be associated with BOTH traditional and contemporary.   

As for feeling that you don't know what you are getting - well, in this day and age there are liner notes for CD's, Club Passim and most venues will have descriptions and links to the artists so you can get an idea of what you are going to hear. You would not buy a car without taking a test drive.

I really hope that the energy we all spend discussing a few words can be channeled into practicing, promoting and preserving the music that we all love.   Instead of being hung up on yet another label, lets worry about the quality of the content.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 May 08 - 09:45 AM

Beautifully put, Barry. You hit the nail on the head about what so many singer songwriters are about - 'them'. That said, there are a few, including a few Mudcatters, who break this mold so I'm not against singer songwriters per se. I just don't enjoy most of them.

Too bad you aren't in Richmond, you are guaranteed a trad experience at our Richmond Folk Music Society concerts. That was exactly why I founded it - to provide a venue for traditional folk music, and I explain why here .

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Jack Radcliffe
Date: 03 May 08 - 08:20 AM

The good news is that there are so many festivals around now that you can find plenty that suit your interests. Remember, too, that Woodie Guthrie, Jimmie Rodgers, A.P. Carter and Hazel Dickens are all also "singer/songwriters" although their subject matter is a bit less self-absorbed than most of what I hear from that genre nowadays.
Meanwhile, There's still Old Songs and Philly and the "new" Eistedfod ... as well as our own Taunton River Folk festival. All trad all the time for four days at five venues in Taunton, Mass. in October.
www.tauntonfest.org
[e-mail]
Jack Radcliffe
President, Packer/Shipper and Dishwasher
Wepecket Island Records

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,Barry, on wife's work computer
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:10 AM

Well Don, tonight I did just that.

I went to Club Passim's, a folk club for 50 yrs is plastared over the stage's flag.
The 2 acts I went to see tonight have been heralded as folk, 1 wining folk album of the yr & other "folk" awards.
I sat through the 1 st act in hopes that the 2nd act had a scent of folk. It did she did "Rose Connelly" with 2 others that were invited up the stage. Every other song written & sung by both act were about themselves. This travelling adventure & that heart brake, the loss of this loved one & how tough it was in college. Never a chorus or a refrain to join in on, even if you wanted to, never a sing along on this one was heard, it's almost like they write them so you can't join in with them, it's their trip & you're not invited on the ride, you're only invited along for "their" telling of it, cheap SOB's. Then I thought that maybe they thought the audience was "dumb", couldn't sing along, 'duh'. I don't have to sing along, I know cause I love long ballads & I don't peep. I finally left before the 2nd act was done. I couldn't take it any more. I didn't go there to be given advice in the form of song or to hear the woes of some self absorbed singer songwriter. I went there to enjoy myself, to become part of the music that was taking place, I wanted to be absorbed into their music. Instead of finding the "Beef", I was taken for a ride, I nearly vomited, motion sickness, again my stomack sussed out the truth.

When Woody sang a song about his hard travelling & his shoes, you know it wasn't about him it was about all those stuck in the same boat as he was or about those in the boat he saw passing by. He wanted others to sing his songs, he wanted others to sing along, he wanted folks to listen to the story of the people he seen & met, or the trobles & joys he saw that others knew & felt, he want the rest of us to feel what he wrote about.
Yes, Woody & other "folk" singers & writers of folk songs wrote about the common folk they connected with through song with these "common folk", that was part of the tradition, the tradition was about "life according to those that lived it", not about my little world, it was always bigger than that. There is no connection with many of these contemporary singer songwriters, they write about themselves & not much else & even when they do write about something other than themselves it's how "they see it" or "it affected them" or what it did to 'their' way of life.
It's I,I,I,I. They don't even care if you get it or sing to it, they're not part of any bigger picture. I'm going home now to get some "beef". I'm sick of this thinner than soup music.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:58 PM

I may be weird, but my wants are really fairly simple. I do not want to

1.   go into a Chinese restaurant, order a plate of shrimp fried rice, and be served a pepperoni pizza;

2.   buy a paperback novel that purports to be science fiction and find myself reading a Harlequin Romance;

3.   go to an ophthalmologist's office to have my eyes tested and have him put on a rubber glove and tell me to drop my pants and bend over;

4.   buy a CD of folk songs or go to a concert by someone billed as a "folk singer" and find myself listening not to work songs, love songs, sea chanteys, and ballads, but to a bunch of songs the singer has written himself or herself about their teen-age angst or the composition of their belly-button lint;

5.   etc.

Or consider for a moment the person who wants to hear contemporary songs and finds himself listening to a program of Child ballads . . . .

It's called "truth in labeling."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:17 PM

Charlotte ~ I'm impressed that The Regents weren't "long-forgotten" by you.

I forgot their name ~ and I had bought the dang record!

Ron, I may have been alive when the Weavers were active, and in fact have very distant, foggy memories of hearing their "Goodnight Irene" on the radio while sitting in a highchair, but I missed being aware of their "Sloop John B.'

Your point is well taken, if I understand it correctly: the well-known songs with which many of us have become familiar as "traditional" classics are actually an essentially random set of songs, each well-known within an isolated local culture, and each of which happened to be "collected" by someone whose efforts turned out to be remembered and widely disseminated. All pretty accidental.

I suppose that the many songs that were never collected and which are now completely forgotten were definitely "folk songs." The songs that we know well enough to argue about were all "popularized" (and arguably "corrupted") to some extent.

Like you, I find all this stuff fascinating. I have a few hard-and-fast opinions, but am willing to go either way on many issues (and will sometimes do so in writing, just to keep stirring the pot.)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:06 PM

Don, that is all well and good - and frankly I never disagreed, but the point is the POPULAR usage is the one that ultimately counts. As you yourself pointed out, the original use of the word was limited to a rural peasant class and that certainly evolved. Definitions change, there is no "mathematical" formula that will ever lock it down.

This is all beginning to remind me of the Cheech and Chong routine about dog crap.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:04 PM

' I realize that not all of us are old enough to remember that, of course.'

Got that right, sunshine...

However your "long-forgotten", doo-wop-pop group (an area of interest for me by the way) was The Regents who recorded Barbara Ann in 1961, the song written by Fred Fassert. The Beach Boys version came in 1965..a four year gap, not a long time in terms of cover versions of songs.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:57 PM

Actually, the Weavers recorded it before the Kingston Trio - who learned it either from the Sandburg collection that was published in 1927 or perhaps from one of the many field recordings that were later made - including Alan Lomax.

The point is, the song was a regional song that became "popular" to a wider audience due to the work of the collectors. Because the song became so widely known, does it cease to be a "folk song"? Is the Beach Boys version not a folk song because they use electric instruments?

It is gray areas like this that get us into such discussions which are really a turn off to audiences who do not share the same passions. I find it fascinating.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:53 PM

Somebody above mentioned "pedantry?" Okay, here's some pedantry for you!

Okay, Ron, so citing the dictionary was not necessarily the best defense for my position. However, as I'm sure you are aware, especially within recent decades dictionaries tend to reflect popular usage of words, often with little regard to the niceties of such things as the formal definition of "definition." A good definition consists of two parts: genus and differentia. Genus specifies a broad category and differentia differentiates a particular thing from all other members of that genus.

The use of the genus-differentia definition is by no means restricted to science. Rather, it is the natural thing to do if you are to explain the meaning of a particular word to someone. With this, the "classical" type of definition (Definitio fit per genus proximum et differentiam specificam.), one uses the copula (is, are) after the word being defined (just as if you were using an equals sign in a mathematical equation) and then go on to explain the word by using the appropriate generic term plus those characteristics specific to the thing you are describing which consecutively narrow down the meaning until the word in question can no longer be confused with anything else. [Emphasis mine – DF].

A few comments I posted on a thread some time ago are, I believe, relevant here:

As far as anyone knows, the first person to ever use the term "folk song" was Johann Gottfried von Herder (1744-1803), a German philosopher and collector of volkslieder (folk songs). He was referring to songs of the rural peasant class. In this modern world, which has become more urbanized and which we like to think of as "classless" despite the mind-boggling spread between the richest and the poorest, it makes people uncomfortable to think that there might still be such a thing as a peasant class. When many poor people live in the cities and try to keep body and soul together by scrubbing toilets and flipping burgers (preferably not the same person and not in that order), we don't like to acknowledge that we may still have what might be considered a peasant class. It embarrasses people. It embarrasses governments. Thus volk has slowly morphed into "just plain folks," which we like to apply to everybody, including people with annual incomes that exceed the GNP of a medium-sized country. And the term "folk singer" got pried loose from traditional singers of traditional songs and got stuck on any singer who sings fairly simple, strophic songs to the accompaniment of a portable musical instrument, especially if they write the songs themselves and like to call themselves "folk singers." And especially if they've recorded a CD and music stores opt to put it in the "folk music" bin.

Folk Festival.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:38 PM

"Sloop John B" was recorded and made quite famous by the Kingston Trio long before the Beach Boys covered it. I realize that not all of us are old enough to remember that, of course.

If you're too young to know about the Kingston Trio, they were one of the first 1960s folk groups to achieve wide popular exposure and acclaim, and their emergence was a major feature of the early "folk revival." Soon enough, as more and more people became aware of more traditional and "authentic" folk music, the Kingstons were scorned by many as being too "pop," but when they released "Sloop John B," their involvement pretty much defined the song as a "folksong" ~ certainly to those many of us who were not aware of Carl Sandburg's earlier performances.

Another Beach Boys recording that should not be regarded as a "Beach Boys song" is "Barbara Ann." That was by no means a folk song, but it was a top-40 recording by some long-forgotten doo-wop-pop group long before the BBs recorded their cover version. I'm very sure of this because I bought the original 45rpm record. That record is long-gone by now, so I can't refer to the label to tell you the name of the group.

John McCain, who very enthusiastically if rather atonally sings "Bomb Bomb Iran" on a You Tube video, IS old enough to know better, but he erroneously refers to the song being parodied as "the old Beach Boys song."

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:32 PM

I agree - it is not very popular in my house either!! :)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:31 PM

Ron. don't get me started on the popular music of today *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:24 PM

Charlotte, you are correct. As I mentioned in the previous post, the songs were probably not know beyond the region. There are songs that are popular to me as an individual, but probably not to many others.

Today when we refer to "pop" songs - the range is much further. Sounds like another discusion!! :)

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 03:16 PM

Aye but even if a song was not known beyond the regions from which it came, it may well have still been "popular" within those regions, but that's something we'll never know (Barbara Allen is not a song I have ever liked). As far as the U.S.A is concerned which ia not an area of expertise for me, so things maybe different, I have no idea. Sloop John B. I'm not familiar with, other than The Beach Boys reading of the song.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:58 PM

"that's what "folk" music was..the pop (short for "popular" BTW *LOL*) music of it's time. "

Actually, that is not exactly true. A song like Barbara Allen probably was unknown beyond the regions where it was collected. Certainly Tom Dooley was a local song before recordings came about. Often the songs we hear and call "folk song" are the ones that were lucky enough to be collected and then RESURRECTED by musicians and fans since the folk revival.   I wonder if we would still be singing Sloop John B if Carl Sandburg did not sing it as part of his readings.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:56 PM

Did I ever get a surprise when I tried sweetbreads! I also sent back the chicken fried steak thinking they left out the chicken!   Of course, I did breathe a sigh of relief when the waiter explained what spotted dick actually was made of.

Look, I do understand the concerns and it pisses me off that traditional music does not get more exposure at these events. As a radio host, I find it nearly impossible to please an audience these days - if I focused soley on the music that all of us (including myself) grew up with as true "folk" music, I could probably fit the entire audience into a studio. Not that I pander to prevailing tastes - I happen to see a connection and I happen to feel that there are important songs that should be heard. I am finding it easier to blend both. Deb made a good point, there does seem to be a reluctance from artists to dip into the traditional songbook of our country, but I do see signs that is changing. Groups like Crooked Still might not be to your liking, but they keep it alive.

While someone in this discussion accused me of being an apologist, I do see the "fit" that contemporary songwriters have in the tradition.   The American Heritage definition, #1, describes music made by a common people of a region or country, passed down through an oral tradition.   Well, the audiences AND the musicians that support contemporary singer-songwriters are part of that "common people" of a very distinct region - it is just that the region is no longer defined by geography and it utilizes tools that were not available years ago.   There is a distinction between this and "popular" music.   When Bat Goddess said that much of what is being written "in the style of traditional folk" - I have to ask, what tradition? There are many, and new traditions evolve.

I realize that this discussion was not meant to define folk, and I do understand Barry's point of view much more clearly than when we first began this discussion.   I am just of an opinion that this is not an issue that will bring doom and gloom the the "traditions" and that traditional folk music styles will remain active and preserved for future generations.    Traditional folk music was not meant to be an exhibition sport anyway, and if people like Barry and others can keep it alive through weekly sessions and sings, then we are indeed lucky.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:49 PM

"They're interesting acoustic POP (short for "popular" BTW)"

John Tams, the English FOLK musician prefers the term popular music to folk music, because, after all, that's what "folk" music was..the pop (short for "popular" BTW *LOL*) music of it's time.

'The problem is that so many singer-songwriters who are primarily acoustic do NOT write songs in the style of traditional folk.'

Sorry I fail to grasp why this is a problem. Are we to expect that all singer/songwriters should "write in the traditional style" (whatever that means)in order to be considered "folk" musicians?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:40 PM

Bill D, thanks to the quick answer, and same to Don Firth. What the two of you had to say was quite pertinent and eminently understandable.

I was only being partly facetious in asking whether Woody Guthrie passed the test(s) to qualify as a "folksinger." He was, after all, nothing more or less than a "singer/songwriter," someone who wrote so much original material that eventually, by the time he came to wide public notice, he performed his own compositions almost exclusively.

Do most (maybe even all) of us accept him as "folk" only because he's dead and gone, and therefore his style is necessarily free of any trace of contemporary influence?

I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, nor am I acting only as a "devil's advocate." I'm wondering out loud because I truly don't know what to think, myself.

"Acousticness" does not, or at least should not, be sufficient cause for classifying a performer as "folk." I definitely believe that some amplified music ~ e.g., Chicago style blues ~ is as authentically folk as just about anything, and much more authentic than most run-of-the-mill attempted re-creation of age-old music as practiced by current-day enthusiasts.

Also, I agree with the most hidebound traditionalists among us that some, if not all, of the quasi-"folk" s/s stuff that prompted this thread is not folk at all, and certainly that it's entirely wrong to label a festival as "folk" when no traditional music is included, and to call one's organization a "folklore society" when denying sponsorship to performers of folkloric material who do not write new songs!

I find it difficult, however, to give credence to any objective criteria in the neverending "what is folk" debate. It really all seems to be about subjectivity, personal taste ~ certainly when it comes to judging performers who do, indeed, write their own songs. Some of them are genrally regarded as being "in the tradition" while others are not, and I can't really see any clear distinction.

Well, there's one reasonable criterion mentioned somewhere above: if all of a singer's concerns seem to be emotionally and psychologically self-centered, we can all probably agree to rule them out. Since so much traditional balladry tells stories from a basically objective viewpoint, and also since so much twentieth-century folksong addresses social justice, I would think that a singer must express some degree of concern for, and interest in, other folks, not just his/her own self, to be a folk artist.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 May 08 - 02:00 PM

Oops, left out a word -- let that read:

The problem is that so many singer-songwriters who are primarily acoustic do NOT write songs in the style of traditional folk. They're interesting acoustic POP (short for "popular" BTW) songs, but that doesn't make it FOLK music because the only thing it has in common with TRADITIONAL folk music is that it is acoustic.

Linn

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:58 PM

The problem is that so many singer-songwriters who are primarily acoustic do NOT write songs in the style of traditional folk. They're interesting acoustic POP (short for "popular" BTW) songs, but that doesn't make it FOLK music because the only thing it has in common with folk music is that it is acoustic.

Linn

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:51 PM

Barry, re your remark about dropping the "folk" out of the name...The Vancouver Island Folk Festival (west coast of Canada) did just that, it's now known as The Vancouver Island Musicfest, the name change certainly hasn't done any damage to attendance figures.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:48 PM

I love the thin mints Ron, I just hope they don't change the recipe & add carmel & keep calling it the same thing. (hee,Hee)

The SS & who ever else want to make a living at what they do, I have no gripe about that. I'm not even as much a stickler as Bill (pretty close though). If a preformer changes their game plan & who'll they'll target so be it. But when a radio station and festival that holds as much sway in the folk world of a city like Boston try to premote a genre of music & try to pass it off for what it ain't & try to relable it's product & redefine a genre in a city that's a hub for that genre, that's not sitting well in my gut. WUMB has been a 24/7 hr folk station for 25 yrs up untill lately & this most recent direction has moved them almost off the folk map completly. They've done the same with their festival. Are they trying to convince their followers & the city & it's enviorns of what the "NEW FOLK MUSIC" is? New & folk can live together but there's also a line somewhere as Ref says, that's maybe not a hard line but it's there somewhere & I'm not gonna have it from a festival or station that's got an a stake in the matter tell me where they think that line is. They crossed the line & they should copt to it. The past few yrs they've "BLURED" the line which could be tolerated up to a point but they're beyond that point now & they need to to called on it.
And I'm calling it,,,,,as I hear it.

This is not a folk festival, again look at where they've come from & where they are now.

It's not a matter of "is Kathy Mattea a folk singer" or "does she sing folk songs". Her new CD "Coal" is a departure from what she does & what she does is good & her "Coal" is black & hot but do you think she's gonna be doing something from a different corner of folkdom when she's in a crowd of SS like the list that's playing? It's a songwriters festival. Where are the other geners, where's the Blues, the Bluegrass, the Cajin or Zydeo, where's the Cowboy, the Western, the Mountain? They still work & sing & write about the mines, they still sail & write songs about that. Do we need to hear only from the songwriters that WON'T WRITE from, within or even near the box. If they're only singers that are writing from far outside the box, well, let them call their box something else & don't go trying to convice a city that's there's a "new kid on the block" & that we need to buy into that new kid & for go the rest at the rest's expense.

They (the premoters) are trying to sell us who love folk music a new set of goods which isn't what it appears to be.
Look I go into a store & they have been selling me beef for yrs, now they've come up with a new canned product, no more raw beef that I have to cook myself. It has the taste & flavor of beef, smells of beef, even has some of the helper stuff to make it look like beef but when I read the ingredients I find there's no beef. I go to the manager & ask why they're selling me this & calling it beef & why they're not selling any of the beef I used to buy? They say cause "it is beef", this is the "NEW BEEF".
I ask you when you look at this line up of singer songwriters "WHERE'S THE BEEF"?

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:45 PM

Sure Don. If you read the above you would see what it means.

To save you the time of having to find it again, The American Heritage dictionary lists the following meaning for the words "folk music":

1.Music originating among the common people of a nation or region and spread about or passed down orally, often with considerable variation.
2.Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:23 PM

Do you know why there are such things as dictionaries? They're so people can look up worda snd find out what they mean.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: stallion
Date: 02 May 08 - 01:13 PM

Bill D
The Battlefield Bands sound man is our sound engineer and very good friend, Rob Van Sante, he has served his time on the folk circuit for the past thirty years I have known him. Haven't heard the BB lately but I think the sound is a consensus and not solely down to him. Admittedly he has a large input to the final sound quality can't say about the arrangement, he is a very good sound engineer.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:06 PM

Never purchase Grape Nuts. No grapes, no nuts.

You might be disappointed about Girl Scout Cookies too.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Ref
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:54 PM

Maybe we should just change the name of this site to "Arrant Pedantry." All this fuss over how to delineate FOLK music is a waste. There ain't no hard lines and there should be no hard lines between musical genres. Again, and I shall bother no more, lighten up!

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 08 - 09:48 PM

And, like Barry, I have been unpleasantly surprised a few times....twice when I was sure it WOULD be 'right'.

I attended a Malcolm Dalglish & Grey Larsen concert many years ago, and was pleased...so when they returned, I went again, only to find they had gone astray. Best example was the canal boat song "Shawnee Town". They speeded it up and made it ummm...bouncy! When I asked, they replied that 'they were doing lots of college gigs, and that's what the kids expected!', so they changed the style. They DID have a sort of excuse...like, they wanted to keep making a living doing music....but they KNEW they had altered the feel of the music for a buck.

Then, there was Battlefield Band. The first couple times I saw them, WOW! Then there was a 2-3 year lapse, and when they returned with a bit different composition, it was ¾ loud, driving stuff with electronic tricks by THEIR sound man, and only a little of the trad stuff I remembered. At least I bought the early LPs while I could.
...As Barry says, my stomach knows the difference...and my ears do too! The later stuff HURTS!

   They have the right to play what they wish, to anyone who will pay for it. I just want some help before I spend my limited money foolishly.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 May 08 - 08:14 PM

HI Charlotte R
In my original post I mentioned that Kathy was probably as close as they were gonna get.

There's much to your analogy with the "Classics" Don. If in fact you were an English Lit professor & your specialty was the classic's & you just read a newly published read, I would say that you might at the end say "this is gonna be a classic" or not. You've been studing them for you whole life, pouring through those that claimed to be but were't & steeped in those that were. You've developed what might be called "a feel" for what is & what isn't. Well, I'd say that some of this feel can be used used along with what would also be a more rational reasoning & explanation. Like what you were saying above.
So many times I've gone to a venue where I didn't know about the said "folksinger" but took a chance because of what the billing discribed or the person at he other end of the phone said only to get there & after 3 or 4 songs want to vomit. My stomack knows the difference.

Barry

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:38 PM

Thank you, Don, for saying what I wanted to say even better than I said it....well, different, anyway.

Subject: RE: Boston NOT Folk Fest?? Singer/songwriter
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:15 PM

I note on the festival website that Kathy Mattea is playing, now while most people associate her with country music (18 Wheels and a Dozen Roses), her roots, as it were, lie in folk. As is stated in her mini-bio Mattea has recorded a collection of traditional coal mining songs from West Virginia (Coal)

Charlotte R