Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: meself
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:02 PM

Jim - Granted you were much closer to the action than I, but - don't you have this the wrong way around? Isn't it the point that the 'Cockney' was NOT singing in a put-on accent, in other words, he was singing a southern Black song in his own accent, as opposed to (for example) Dick Van Dyke's attempt at doing a Cockney accent? Or have I misunderstood the originial story?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

You have obviously never seen an Irishman's reaction to a cod 'Oirish' accent.
Then again - there's always Dick Van Dyke's cockney chimney sweep.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

I only said "WLD has it about right." I can't take responsibility for everything he said.

In Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition, she makes it clear that a lot of people were singing all sorts of things from all sorts of cultures in a variety of accents. This seemed to be the accepted norm. I find it hard to understand why a Cockney singing a traditional song from a different culture in his own voice should have such an impact.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

No - read Peggy's letter again - it was really aimed at accent and language.
Can't lay my hands on the records at present,
Off the top of my head
Blind Beggar of Bethnall Green, Betsy Baker, Georgie Barnell, London Ordinary, Tottie, Fan in the Lion's Den, London Burning in Ashes - can't remember any more; will dig them out later.
Prior to these albums Ewan did 2 Folkways albums of London broadsides which containes Roome For Company, Pity's Lamentation, There's Nothing to be had Without Money, The Midwife's Ghost, Merry Progress to London, London's Lottery, King Lear and his Three Daughters, The Female Frolic, Give Me My Yellow Rose, King and no King and Constance of Cleveland.

Terry Yarnell was/is researching material for a book of London songs and had compiled a large list of them last time I spoke to him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bert
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

Bert
Who said he 'can't'?
Jim Carroll

Well it seems to me that Peggy Seeger and The Singers Club are of the opinion that one shouldn't sing songs from outside of one's own
culture.

But more important, what songs are on the two albums you mention?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

Cap'n,
"I have the utmost respect for Maccoll as a writer and performer."
I'm sure that's a weight off his mind!
He questioned your taste in music - the bastard - that's worth an eternity of roasting in Hell at least. He criticised your buying an American record - oh come on, give us a break! He must have gone through hell living with Peggy.
Snail,
Peggy was aware of what the Weavers, and Pete were doing - and had things to say about it on occasion!
I seem to have missed the point somewhere, WMD appeared to be criticising Peggy for what The Weavers did - have I got that wrong.
Couldn't agree more about what they did to poor Irene.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

Jim Carroll

Your point?

WLD has it about right. (Who would have thought that we would ever agree about anything?) I'm not holding Peggy Seeger responsible for anything thet the Weavers did, just pointing out that she must have been very familiar with interpretations of Leadbelly far removed from the original culture. I will never know what the Cockney Leadbelly sounded like, but, to my taste, the Weavers' version of Goodnight Irene is toe-curlingly embarrassing.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:43 AM

Jim,
I have the utmost respect for Maccoll as a writer and performer.
I am not carrying a grudge,but relating an incident,that I think illustrates that Ewans attitude .,and is relevant to the discussion in hand.
I bought an LP off him, he criticised my choice, because it was American folk songs.,I walked away[end of conversation].
I later booked Ewan/ Peggy at a folk club I ran,and also did a support act at their concert,we got on well.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:12 AM

Cap'n,
You once reprimanded me for bringing up something that happened 'a long time ago'; I believe that on that occasion it was about a dozen years previously.
I don't know when your 'incident' with MacColl happened (I'm not even sure I understand how he managed to earn your disapproval), but I would guess it was at least twice that length of time - seems a long time to be carrying a grudge - especially against a man who has been dead for nearly twenty years!
I always found MacColl extremely approachable, generous, polite, and very helpful when his assistance and advice was sought - but that's me.
Who knows, perhaps you caught him on a bad day - on the other hand it is not inconceivable that you managed to get up his nose, as you do mine (and I suspect others) on a regular basis.
Strange as it may seem, MacColl did not often take part in public polemic. From the mid-sixties onward, around the time of the John Snow debacle, he set up The Critics Group, and confined his work to that and to The Singers Club.
He gave a few interviews, but he wrote little on the folk scene, at least I have been hard-pushed to find anything of any great significance.
Personally, I believe that his failure to engage in public debate was a fatal mistake - but again, that's me.
He was always forthcoming and honest when an opinion was sought, which quite often didn't go down too well with many of the sycophantic 'lovies' of the revival, but he usually confined his comments to that level.
Despite this, he remains the target of constant vituperative abuse and slander nearly twenty years after his death, all of which proves to me that he must have done something right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:41 AM

Is there any hope that people could please not copy-paste long passages of the posts they are replying to, when the originals are only one or two slots away? We can perfectly well glance up and refer to them if we need to. Long unnecessary quotes are just confusing and they waste so much space.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:22 AM

However I can see that it is that sort of minding of other singers business that has reduced folkclubs in popularity.

I don't see that any club setting it's own scope, aims or policy affects the popularity of folk clubs overall and I don't consider setting such things "minding of other singers business".

I am however concerned about people minding other folk clubs, etc. business and I think a fair amount of damage is done on the Internet by people believing their way to run an event is the only way.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:17 AM

the club where I saw Ewan and Peggy and where I bought the lp was Farningham,this club was very successful,in fact there was a friday and a sunday club[singers club ]the residents were Skinners Rats and Pete Hicks,
In complete contrast with my experience with Ewan, this club was very encouraging to all types of folk music,floorsingers[I remember Brixton Bert,SimonPrager/SteveRye JeffDale all blues singers and good ones doing floorspots and pretty broad in its booking policy].
now this must have been about 1970,Stephane Grappeli was booked one night and people were being turned away,this was about the same time that Ewan and Peggy were booked.
so as far back as 1970 there were sucessful folk clubs with booking policies.
Jim Carroll said.
Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:48 AM

WMD
Not being 'purposefully obtuse' - Peggy laid out her stall fairly openly and honestly in her letter to The Living Tradition; she apologised for for her behaviour and 'confessed to her own wrongdoings'. I'm happy to grant her 'absolution' - how about you? As far as I'm concerned, she has no reason to apologise for the actions of her half-brother.
It's more than a little slick to blame the decline of the clubs on 'backbiting'.
My experience leads me to believe that they have reached the present sorry state because a parasitic growth has choked the life out of them to the extent that the term 'folk' has become meaningless and can now refer to anything from the Child ballads to the compositions of George Gershwin or William McGonagall.
Jim Carroll .
Well, I can remember going to a club in 1967,and hearing Ron Geesin,Ron on occassions during his gig used to recite Mcgonagle.
The reciting of Mcgonagle,and a fairly broad repertoire including blues ,American folk songs and bluegrass,has been going on for over forty years,.
to say they are in a sorry state,because of a catholic inclusion of Mcgonagle,child ballads,and others in the booking policies/and or floor spots at folk clubs,is historically inaccurate.
in fact I can recall seeing
Jug bands,Stephane Grappelli,PeteStanley,
Ron Geesin,GerryLockran,Ralph Mctell,Roy Harper, Derek Brimstone Red Clay Ramblers,Between the period 1966 and 1970.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM

That's what I take to be the point. I'm not sure I agree. However I can see that it is that sort of minding of other singers business that has reduced folkclubs in popularity. Too much backbiting - perhaps Ewan picked it up from Joan Littlewood and the theatrical crowd - none of whom seem to have a good word to say for each other, not til obituary time anyway.
WLD, well said,What is important in my opinion,is the performance and enjoyment of the music,when I go to a folk club,I go to enjoy myself,to hear the music I like.
I certainly do not expect when I buy an lp off the artist[in this case Ewan Maccoll and PeggySeeger]to be made to feel small by Ewan,because I am purchasing an lp of american folk songs by Peggy and Mike Seeger.
I was made to feel that I shouldnt be listening to American folk songs,and should only be buying lps of English songs.
Ewan and Peggy were/are very good performers,but his comment was bad mannered,out of place,and sarcastic.
I was a young man/teenager who felt intimidated by the guest performer ,and lacking in confidence to argue the toss with Ewan.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:48 AM

WMD
Not being 'purposefully obtuse' - Peggy laid out her stall fairly openly and honestly in her letter to The Living Tradition; she apologised for for her behaviour and 'confessed to her own wrongdoings'. I'm happy to grant her 'absolution' - how about you? As far as I'm concerned, she has no reason to apologise for the actions of her half-brother.
It's more than a little slick to blame the decline of the clubs on 'backbiting'.
My experience leads me to believe that they have reached the present sorry state because a parasitic growth has choked the life out of them to the extent that the term 'folk' has become meaningless and can now refer to anything from the Child ballads to the compositions of George Gershwin or William McGonagall.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:10 AM

Don't be puposefully obtuse, Jim.

The point is obviously that it would ill behove any member of the Seeger family to sneer at the inauthenticity of another artist's version of a Leadbelly song, when one of their number had so thoroughly dismantled, reassembled and changed the character of Goodnight Irene. Then took the song to Number One in the charts.

That's what I take to be the point. I'm not sure I agree. However I can see that it is that sort of minding of other singers business that has reduced folkclubs in popularity. Too much backbiting - perhaps Ewan picked it up from Joan Littlewood and the theatrical crowd - none of whom seem to have a good word to say for each other, not til obituary time anyway.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:24 AM

Your point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:08 PM

So a Cockney singing Leadbelly is laughable but THIS is OK?

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:36 PM

Incidentally,
The policy at the Singers Club led to the opening up of the London repertoire, which produced 2 albums of London songs and a whole stack left virtually untouched.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:33 PM

Bert
Who said he 'can't'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bert
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:28 PM

It strikes me that if a Cockney can't sing folk songs from outside of his tradition then he wouldn't have too much to sing.

Music hall, yes but folk songs, I don't know of many.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:29 AM

"my first 100"
Happy Birthday Dazbo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:26 AM

But this bit bears repeating:

The editor wants to know "Who are Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie?" They were members of the Critics Group for most of the life of that group. They were two of the most loyal, industrious and intelligent members by far. It is possible that they have inherited some of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament (that's the way things go?) but there is no doubt that their work in the folksong world has been invaluable and dedicated.

And so say all of us...

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:15 AM

Folkie Dave, my humblest apologies - I see you beat me to it!

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:42 AM

Jim wrote: Peggy's letter on her behaviour towards the singer can be found on the Living Tradition web-page dated July 2000 - still makes interesting reading.

It sure does. Thanks for that, Jim. Link here:

http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/htmfiles/edtxt39.htm

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Dazbo
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:28 AM

my first 100

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:06 AM

Sorry - crossed lines.
The Ballads and Blues was forerunner to The Singers Club; B&B - 1957, Singers - 1961; never been any doubt about that. What is argued is whether Topic Club started before that. There were a couple of folk/jazz evenings prior to the B&B at The Theatre Royal, Stratford, East London. It's all in Ewan's biography, 'Class Act'.
Hootenanny;
The recording I have was, I think, one of two made at the Ballad and Blues by the BBC; if you shut your eyes you can see the interviewer's bow-tie. It sounds very much like the one in your photograph.
Peggy's letter on her behaviour towards the singer can be found on the Living Tradition web-page dated July 2000 - still makes interesting reading.
What needs to be remembered about the 'national' policy was that the British clubs at the time were rapidly filling up with whey-faced young men wearing windcheaters and leather caps, singing 'Blowing In The Wind' in whiney mid-Atlantic accents, usually accompanied by long haired Joanie-clones.
Lomax, Lloyd and MacColl had set out to open up the British repertoire: it succeeded as far as I'm concerned with the introduction of the sea repertoire, the industrial songs, and later people like Harry Boardman and The Critics started to open up regional repertoires. The threat of American acculturation never totally disappeared, but it was kept in check.
The Singers Club was, I'm proud to say, a policy club with specific aims in mind. It is conveniently forgotten that there were clubs with far stricter policies; like the ones were you were virtually body-searched in case you were carrying a musical instrument. Ewan, Peggy and members of the Critics Group were constantly being asked not to sing political songs at some clubs, or modern songs - none of these conditions were ever part of The Singers Club policy. The writing of new songs was encouraged with song-writing classes, and were published in the magazine Peggy edited, The New City Songster. She also ran accompaniment classes and gave a several stunning talks on the subject.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: meself
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:12 PM

Stringsinger -I don't think anyone in this thread has jumped on Peggy S. for her moment of questionable behaviour fifty years ago, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to go to such lengths to rationalize it. And I certainly hope that most of us would have enough respect for Bo Diddley not to laugh in his face if he shared some musical experimentation with us - whatever we thought of it.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:53 PM

I don't know about Elias McDaniel singing a Mozart Aria but I did hear Mississippi John Hurt sing Gilbert and Sullivan, and it's on vinyl. Didn't Red Ingle too once record Mr Mozart's Turkey Trot?

I would like to point out here to our friends across the pond. Kids of our generation growing up in the UK were brought up listening to American music whether it was pop, country or jazz. My parents bought and listened to Jimmie Rodgers and Carson Robison, my sisters bought Lione Hampton, Louis Jordan etc and we had many British people doing covers of American hits. So for us to sing American songs wasn't un-natural. I was singing a Carter Family song in 1951 but didn't know it's origin. We also saw many American films of all types so we weren't unaware or uneducated about the US. At the risk of starting WW3 I would suggest that we knew more about America and it's music in the 1950's than most Americans knew about ours.
Most people get things wrong when they start out, so what's new?

Meanwhile, have fun and keep singing.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:51 PM

I suspect that Guest John above wasn't around in the fifties either as there weren't that many clubs (here I speak of London)around at the time good or bad.

No. I was born in 1960, only started to go folk clubs around 1980, have never set foot in a London folk club and have been pretty much local (firstly Llandudno area, N Wales and now Cromer area/Norwich) in most of my folk outings.

I speak only as an observer of countless of these "Ewan McColl" threads over the years. For me, it has struck me as particularly puzzling as to why this one person seems to have been singled out for so much stick and I guess if what you say was happening in other places, presumably organised by other people?, in the 50s, the mystery gets deeper.

---
fwiw, my own view on policies is I favour variety. My own "perfect night" when I can find one is a mostly Irish instrumental night but with a couple of well chosen (IMO of course) unaccompanied songs at appropriate points...

OK, I can't legislate for that but out of my choices, I can for example find a very good purely Irish instrumental session in Norwich. I can also find things, eg. "anything goes" that I may find I enjoy, not that I know of one, might dip into an evening purely of unnacompanied song once in a while.

There may also be things, eg. a night of purely contemporary "American style" where it's unlikely I'd get anything out of it but I wouldn't object to it existing.

Opening everything up to say all clubs/sessions should cater for everthing would IMO actually reduce my choices of different things to go to, suit in various degrees my personal preferences, etc. And another thing I don't get is why (at least to me and perhaps wrongly) some of the supposedly more open types seem to be more restrictive (ie. it MUST allow everything considered folk) than some of those who follow their choices (without inflicting thier "rules" on others.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:10 PM

I am such a fan of Peggy's and when she says something I listen (Smith Barney style).
Peggy and Alan Lomax love folk music so much that when something comes down the pike that seems out of kilter, they comment. Although Alan is gone, now, I remember his rants and also the reason for them. He cared! So does Peggy.

It's best to listen to why she reacts because she is one of the most knowledgeable people in folk music around today. She has heard folk music practically in the womb and so she, Pete and Mike have knowledge that you can take to the bank (except folk music doesn't make much money so it'll be a slim account).

Ewan and Peggy made a point out of maintaining a fidelity to the culture from which the singer emanates. This degree of consistency and integrity is a hall-mark of a folklorist
or musicologist who has studied, compared, sifted, collected, and found those who folklorists call "informants" that represent a specific tradition in music.

If, for example, Bo Diddley sang a Mozart aria, y'all might be on the floor too.

I've made it a point to come as close as I can to understanding the songs, styles and techniques of folk music (and I've done some laughable things too) but this reaction by Peggy can be constructive if you see it in the light of learning something about folk traditions. The Cockney guy who sang a style with which he was unfamiliar showed a kind of insensitivity to the song. I'm all for people doing anything they want with music but if they lack an education about it, then they have to take their lumps. I certainly have taken mine plenty of times. When I sang "Tying A Knot in the Devil's Tail" by the great late cowboy poet Gail Gardner, I got the liner notes all wrong which prompted him to say to me, "That guy doesn't know which end of a horse is up", and he was right. Since then, I've had a few horseback riding lessons and an important lesson about having applied and educated integrity to the song you sing.

Frank

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Jim,

Is that recording one that was made at the Princess Louise by the BBC?
I have a couple of photographs taken during one of those recordings; Peggy & Ewan, Peggy and Guy Carawan and the McEwen brothers Rory & Alex. If you are interested. Who is on the recording by the way?
Re the "hotly debated" matter of being first, the Ballads and Blues definitely pre-dated The Singers Club. However there may have been a club or two elsewhere that pre-dated The B & B. The Topic Club in the north of England, Bradford if I remember correctly may be a contender. Possibly the Gyre and Gimble and The Troubador also.
I suspect that Guest John above wasn't around in the fifties either as there weren't that many clubs (here I speak of London)around at the time good or bad. Which is why the B & B had excellent residents and excellent guests dropping in each Saturday night.
I don't get excited about it, in fact I find it rather amusing but hopefully try to tell what I remember. And incidentally unlike the 1960's, if you can remember the 1950's then you probably were there.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:46 PM

The people who were there seem a bit vague. It's all very confusing to those hicks from the sticks among us, who sung in clubs in the provinces. So, could we have a summing-up from some clever person who was actually there? This incident, the laughing at Long John Baldry that Peggy Seeger found so hilarious. Was it in the Singers Club? Or the Ballads and Blues Club? And was the butt of her wit actually her good friend Long John Baldry? And did the friendship survive the laughter? And how does this relate to the not-singing-foreign-songs policy of Ewan McColl's? Or this policy that was in fact nothing to do with Ewan McColl, but imposed by some quite other people at some club or other? We need to know more.(Well, maybe we don't actually need to, but I would be interested to know the facts, put it that way).

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:06 PM

Hootenanny,
Wasn't round in the fifties - early sixties was my first time (for several things)
It is hotly debated whether The Ballads and Blues was the first - on balance, it seems like it probably was.
Have a (poor) recording of a radio programme made at The Ballads and Blues, if it is of any interest to you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:46 PM

there were plenty of other good clubs to choose from

That seems to me to be the main point in this story. I don't see why people get so excited about what one group of people decided to do for one particular club.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:34 PM

Cap'n
I have just replied to you on another thread where you seem quite happy to tell other people what to do.
For the record-I told you to mind your own business.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:18 PM

I agree with the Captain, I also sing, some songs, in my native accent, but I wouldn't if I was told I had to. Precious isn't the word I'm thinking of right now, but it'll do.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:13 PM

the Singers club had a policy,of telling singers they should only sing in their own native accent.,If they wanted to be resident or booked at the club
One of the reasons I never bothered with the Singers club.,
mind you I sing in my native accent,but it seemed a bit precious to me.,there were plenty of other good clubs to choose from where people had a more sensible attitude.
I have ran many clubs,and never told singers what they should or shouldnt do ,in fact I booked Ewan and Peggy,and they gave a very good night,were very professional,and drew a big audience.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:56 PM

Just to try and clarify things, I was writing about The Ballads and Blues Club where Ewan and Peggy were virtually resident at the time. It would have been there probably that Peggy heard Long John.
I was not referring to The Singers Club which Ewan and Peggy formed along with Bruce Dunnett at a later date. I have pointed out on earlier threads that it was at the Ballads and Blues Club where Ewan started all the bit about singing songs of your own country. He did not consult us the paying audience. He may have done so at his own club but as my visits there were very rare I cannot say.
I would have been very surprised indeed if John had appeared at the Singers Club. He never did while I was handling his bookings.

As a matter of interst Jim Were you around the London folk scene during the fifties? It didn't just start with The Singers Club you know.
Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:20 PM

"can we all just get on with playing and enjoying music?"
Forgot to add Cap'n - please mind your own business and stop telling others what to do!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Whoops,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Sorry Snail, My mistake - wasn't concentrating.
Cap'n
I think you might have hit on your own level at last - I'd follow it up if I were you.
"and they all lived happily ever after,flopsy and mopsy,and peter rabbit ,along with pigling bland,never ever sang songs other than those from their native Westmoreland."

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:19 PM

can we all just get on with playing and enjoying music?
Fascinating to see 'Chinese whispers at work'
The Snail wrote:
"The policy of the irascible MacColl was that singers should perform only the music of their native country,"
While Hootenanny wrote:
"the "rules" that Peggy/Ewan put down and only sang songs from North West London where he lived,"
C'mon fellers, if you are going to get it wrong, at least sing from the same hymn-sheet.
It was the policy of The Singers Club committee, on which I served, that only singers who sang in their native accents should be booked or be a resident at the club.
Whatever happened outside of the club was no concern of ours.
Our aim was to open up or own national repertoires - it worked.
If you haven't already, suggest you read Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition on the subject.
Baldry was a friend of E&P's; both admired his music, but he was certainly never booked there during my time at the club.
Jim Carroll.
and they all lived happily ever after,flopsy and mopsy,and peter rabbit ,along with pigling bland,never ever sang songs other than those from their native Westmoreland.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:58 PM

Thank you irishenglish. At least someone is paying attention.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:39 PM

Jim, Snail was quoting from the obituary posted, Snail did not write those words.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:33 PM

Fascinating to see 'Chinese whispers at work'
The Snail wrote:
"The policy of the irascible MacColl was that singers should perform only the music of their native country,"
While Hootenanny wrote:
"the "rules" that Peggy/Ewan put down and only sang songs from North West London where he lived,"
C'mon fellers, if you are going to get it wrong, at least sing from the same hymn-sheet.
It was the policy of The Singers Club committee, on which I served, that only singers who sang in their native accents should be booked or be a resident at the club.
Whatever happened outside of the club was no concern of ours.
Our aim was to open up or own national repertoires - it worked.
If you haven't already, suggest you read Peggy's letter to The Living Tradition on the subject.
Baldry was a friend of E&P's; both admired his music, but he was certainly never booked there during my time at the club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:50 PM

Despite the fact that I think this thread is pretty pointless,I must say that John was one of few people in the UK that could put blues material across pretty convincingly. To call his accent cockney is completely incorrect, he never even spoke with a cockney accent.
I knew John well and worked with him from 1961 onward. At that time he was very well respected on the folk and blues scene. He appeared regularly at the Ballads and Blues Club before going on to appear with New Orleans revivalist jazz bands, then Cyril Davies's Allstars. He then took over the band after Cyril's early death. Followed that by being one of the three vocalists in the Steampacket, the other two being Rod Stewart and Julie Driscoll.
John went on to a quite successful career and and moved to Canada but continued touring in Europe. If he had followed the "rules" that Peggy/Ewan put down and only sang songs from North West London where he lived, I don't think anyone would remember him.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: Newport Boy
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:48 PM

This doesn't ring true for me. Anne & I were in London together from 1958 to 1960, and were regulars at Ballads & Blues in Soho Square, which doesn't seem to be mentioned these days. As far as I recall, Long John Baldry never appeared there.

I first heard John in a coffee bar in St Martins Lane early in 1958. He sang unaccompanied one of the solo blues from the Parchman Farm recordings on "Murderer's Home". This was a straight copy, and it was near-perfect - pitch, intonation and accent.

I heard him a few times over the following year, mainly at the Partisan, and his American blues singing was always spot-on. I heard him sing a number of things, but never the popular skiffle songs.

Peggy reports the incident as about 1960. I can't believe that in 1960 Long John Baldry would put cockney vowels in a Leadbelly song - unless he was parodying the Lonnie Donegan version. It would fit with his sense of humour.

Phil

Phil

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:38 PM

Supporting circumstantial evidence from this obituary -

By the late 1950s, Baldry was a leading figure on the Soho scene and the only regular performer at both the blues club of Alexis Korner and Cyril Davies and the folk-song sessions run by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. The policy of the irascible MacColl was that singers should perform only the music of their native country, but he made an exception for Baldry, who remained a close friend until MacColl's death in 1989.

The Guardian, Saturday July 23 2005

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:28 PM

long john baldry,was a great Rand bsinger
John William Baldry, popularly known as Long John Baldry, (January 12, 1941 – July 21, 2005) was an English blues singer. He sang with many notable British musicians, with Rod Stewart and Elton John appearing in bands led by Baldry at various stages of the 1960s. He enjoyed pop success in the UK where "Let the Heartaches Begin" reached No. 1 in 1967 and in Australia where his duet with Kathi McDonald "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" reached No. 2 in the charts in 1980. Baldry lived in Canada from the late 1970s until his death, where he continued to make records and do voiceover work. He is known by a younger generation as the voice of Dr. Robotnik in Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.

Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger's Cockney Leadbelly??
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:16 PM

Interesting Greg. I have to admit I know the name, but don't really know anything about Long John Baldry.