BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...

Subject: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:01 PM

I'm going for like, ahhhhhh, May 23rd.... But if could be the 24th or it could be never... But, for now I'm stickin' with May 23rd...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:12 PM

When Missouri casts the vote in the convention that puts Obama over the top......

unless, of course, she demands the delegation be polled....and insists on lie detector tests be given to each Obama voter.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:49 PM

Hilary is 404

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: MarkS
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:53 PM

Hillary will stay in to weaken Obama and make her look better for 2012. Look for the next fight to be over seating the delegates from Florida and Michigan. Look for a fight all the way to the convention floor. Hope I am wrong, (usually am!) but..........

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:30 PM

She will campaign until June 3. After that who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:52 PM

Depends on how Obama does, especially in Oregon. If he is comfortably ahead--even factoring in a sizable trove for her in Puerto Rico-- so that he can offer her the FL and MI delegates she "won" and still be ahead in delegates himself, I suspect strongly he will make that offer--either in exchange for her dropping out, or to impress the undecided superdelegates of his strong desire to unite the party. And if he does, it will. And thereby bring many superdelegates over to his side.

I can't claim this idea--but it makes a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:03 AM

May 20th

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 08 - 09:56 AM

June 1, 2008.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 09 May 08 - 10:09 AM

Slate Onlne has a delegate calculator - it's instructive. If you give her all the remaining states except Oregon by an 80/20 margin, and give her Oregon by a 60/40 margin, then give her Florida and Michigan as they "voted" - he still wins in delegates. With the way the superdelegates are headed, I'd say she's out on June 4.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 May 08 - 10:54 AM

Yikes - what's the last date possible? The convention itself?

I *love* the 404 link!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 May 08 - 11:21 AM

I think she's trying to deny him a first-ballot victory in the convention.

A few things MIGHT flow from that.

One is, possibly the offer of the vice-presidency slot.

Two, keeping her name up in the list of future viable candidates, in case he's defeated in the main election. However, if he's elected and serves two terms, it's all over for her, I think.

I thought I had a third possible result for that list, but it's gone now.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Deckman
Date: 09 May 08 - 11:32 AM

I predict she will bow out this coming Sunday morning, and she'll do it as Tim russert's only guest on "Meet The Press." I think that Tim will allow her to speak her mind, and he will be gently with her ... mark my words! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bill D
Date: 09 May 08 - 11:53 AM

Well, Tim Russert said she is 'done'...maybe she is going on the show to kick his butt. *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Amergin
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:00 PM

20 January, 2009, when Obama is sworn in as President.....I think then she will realise she has no chance in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:04 PM

I love that line.

"Stick a fork in her.


She's done."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:36 PM

She will throw her support to McCain in the hopes that she can then run in 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: gnu
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:46 PM

Hehehehehe.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:17 PM

I think this weekend too. I didn't know she was scheduled as the only guest on Meet the Press. It may or may not be on that program, but I think if she doesn't bow out this weekend, it will come within the week.

The superdelegates have turned on her, she is deep in debt, and gains nothing now by staying in the game.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 May 08 - 07:55 PM

I finally remembered the third point (which I'd forgotten in my post above) to be gained by Hillary's effort to carry the fight beyond the first ballot at the convention:

Many of the delegates are only bound to vote for a particular candidate on the first ballot; after that, those delegates may vote their own judgment. It is not uncommon for the whole picture to change on the second or third ballots, with delegates who are now freed from their initial obligation voting for a different candidate than the one they were required to vote for on the first ballot.

This is the point at which she could gain (if not the nomination) a great deal of negotiating leverage.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 May 08 - 10:17 PM

Talking of carrying the fight beyond the first ballot at the convention ignores the urgent desire of so many parties in this situation to get a clear nominee before the convention even starts. And based on the recent superdelegate moves, that's very likely--ABC's count even puts Obama ahead in superdelegates already--though others do not.

In fact it's actually to Hillary's benefit that the issue be solved soon. It will be obvious to all that the longer the nomination contest drags on now, the more she is to blame. Not helpful to her political options down the road.

Her latest remark, quoting with approval the AP article "that found how Senator Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again and how whites in both states (NC and IN) who had not completed college were supporting me" is one I suspect she now wishes she had not made. It can easily hold its own with "bitter" as unfortunate statements by the candidates.

And it's one she will have to live down--if she ever expects to go beyond NY Senator.

In fact, the more she raises that argument--in KY or WV, say--the more she will have to eat her own words--and soon. She's smart enough to know her only chance is that Obama somehow self-destructs--and that's not likely.



Though there was a contest recently-- MSNBC First Read, I think--as to how Obama could still lose the nomination.

A few suggestions:

1) It's discovered that Obama is only 34.

2) Footage of 8-year-old Obama is discovered--making bombs in Williams Ayers' workshop.

3) Hillary cries 2 tears.

4) Hillary appeals to the Supreme Court, which, based on a 2000 decision, decides that the winner is the candidate who gets the fewer votes.




At any rate, when she concedes, the proof of the pudding will be how hard she works to elect Obama. So she will be going back to some of the same states and, in essence, saying she was completely wrong to run him down. If she doesn't, it will be the end of her political career--and she should have thought about that before engaging in her classic scorched earth tactics.

If anything, Bill is even more guilty--but it won't make any difference to him-- he'll only ever be an "elder statesman" . But he also should be sent to represent Obama before blue-collar audiences.


At any rate, the sooner she concedes now, the fewer words she'll have to eat---before the same audiences.

However, I'd be very surprised if she concedes on Tim Russert's program. One of the most memorable exchanges in the debates, remember, was Tim's questioning of her on the jobs issue. He specifically pointed out that in her run for Senate in 2000 she had promised that NY State would gain jobs. But instead it lost them--about 50,000 or so, as I recall. Her excuse was she assumed Gore would win. Not her finest moment--and courtesy of Tim Russert.   I bet she remembers that--and is not about to give him the scoop her bowing-out announcement would be.

But perhaps right after winning WV--leaving on an up-note. That would be a plausible scenario. So that's my guess.

It's unlikely now she'll even wait til the end of the month.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 May 08 - 10:21 PM

Also, as Bill D points out, Tim has said recently she was "done". Probably not the best way to win her heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 08 - 04:19 AM

Nine more superdelegates, according to today's :A Times, have endorsed Barack.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:15 AM

Does she have time for a shag in all this d'you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 10 May 08 - 09:11 AM

For decades now, the pundits have all been crowing over how the Democrats can't win because they lost--pick your choice of terms: Nascar dads or white male working class voters. Clinton wins them in spades and has the audacity to say so, and she is called a racist.

Go figure.

I believe Obama will be the nominee, and Clinton will pull out soon.

I also believe that there is a very good chance that nominating Obama will result in a Republican win in the fall, because of his weaknesses with working class voters--also known as swing voters--also known as soccer moms and Nascar dads--also known as Reagan Democrats....

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 08 - 10:01 AM

Well, Fantz, with Clinton's negatives she certainly wasn't going to beat McCain..

It remains to be seen if Obama can beat back the Willie Horton Swifties that McCain's 527s will crank up but I, for one, wouldn't be all that disappointed if Obama looses as long as he sticks to cmapaign style and pushes forth a somewhat "progressive" agenda...

It took Barry Goldwater to get the "conservative" agenda rolling and it has rooled very well since then... Maybe an Obama lose can do that, I donno... But he does at least give a lot of folks the kinda hope they felt in the winter of '68...

Ya' got to start somewhere... Yeah, you can blast me for not going with Nader again and that's okay... There are alot of us ol' radical who have supported Nader going back along way who have also found themselves supporting Obama...

I was talking with 2 such folks yesterday at a plant sale outside of Winchester... One said he had attended a Clinton ralley in Sheppardstown, WV, which is a rather "progressive" town and there were lots of 60's style old "hippies" (his words) there with Obama tee-shirts....

Like I said, right now the only game in town in "framing" progressive issues and visions is Obama... Or at least the only one who has the microphone...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 10 May 08 - 10:32 AM

Everyone insisted Kerry would be able to beat Bush in a landslide.

I see predictions here about the same with Obama.

That is just sheer obstinate stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 10 May 08 - 10:37 AM

And Obama is neither liberal nor progressive. He is a conservative black Democrat.

The money supporting him comes from Wall Street law & lobbying firms, despite his lies to the contrary.

Corporate funders are overwhelming throwing their financial backing behind Obama.

This will "change the equation" how, exactly--whether he wins or loses?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 08 - 11:02 AM

I think, Fantz, you are over simplifying a complex person; and that he is going to demonstrate more progressive work, once in place, than anyone since FDR.   I could be wrong. But that's my guess in the dark.

As for his lying about funds, what specifically are you talking about?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 08 - 11:05 AM

First, I have been (and remain) a great Hillary Clinton admirer. I think she would make a terrific president.

Further, I think Obama is pretty long on rhetoric and shorter on substance than I'd like.

HOWSOMEVER, I've finally decided it's time for her to hang up her gloves and concede the fight to Obama. I'm convinced that the Democratic party just MUST mend fences and get behind one candidate, which it's now pretty durn clear can be no one but Obama.   Any further divisiveness is just the Democratic donkey shooting itself in the hoof (to mangle a metaphor).

And I hope she will follow through with her promise to campaign hard for the final Democratic candidate (i.e. Obama). That would go a long way toward mending some of the damage and hard feelings from the rough campaigning that has gone on, on both their parts.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 08 - 11:16 AM

So I guess that Obama got his "liberal" voting record in the Senate by being very conservative???

Hmmmmmm, pass the joint over, Fantz...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 10 May 08 - 11:57 AM

What liberal voting record?

If you are referring to the bullshit, right wing National Journal "Most Liberal Senator of 2007" label slapped on him--it is entirely bogus, and certainly isn't based upon his actual votes.

FOR the renewal of the Patriot Act

For the appropriations bills to continue the war & occupation

FOR the energy company interests on the Energy Act & Mining Act

I could go on and on.

But the reality here is, people are voting for a personality, not the person with an actual record in the US Congress.

Obamamania is ignoring the voting record and the political alliances of Obama--his votes siding with the Republicans on major issues like those I list above, and his deep ties to Wall Street law firms and
lobbyists.

And he keeps lying about his funding, and misrepresenting his voting record to make himself appear more liberal in order to win the nomination.

If you want to call that "complex" rather than cunning and deceiving, go right ahead.

It won't change the reality of who this guy is, and what he will do if elected.

Be very prepared for the biggest push for the nuke industry since Jimmy Carter.

Be very prepared for an escalation of the war in Afghanistan.

Be very prepared for the wealthy elite to walk away from the housing bubble debacle, the same way they did the S & L debacle of the 80s.

Be very prepared for "energy policy" to become a Wall Street entitlement program for global energy conglomerates to squeeze every penny out of consumers, and destroying what remains of the health and viability of the planet, to get "their money's worth" out of our dwindling finite energy resources through creative Wall Street lawyers rewriting our energy regulations.

Obama will talk a very sweet talk about education, family and religious values, health care for all...while the Wall Street corporate looters finish the country off.

Remember--the wealthy elite don't need democracy. They need to control the government.

The reason why the Wall Street wealthy elite are financially supporting and politically backing Obama instead of McCain?

I don't know--you tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 08 - 11:59 AM

I heard somewhere recently that Hillary has the highest negative ratings if any presidential candidate ever (since they started keeping track of such things).

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 08 - 12:10 PM

See yer in a real chery pickin/twistin' mood today, Fantz...

(Hey, Bobert, any day ending in "y" is a ggod day for Fantz cherry pickin'/ twistin'...)

Normal...

And thanks for the sermon... Now I understand everything... lol...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 May 08 - 12:57 PM

Interesting. Janet pillories Obama for being "a conservative black Democrat". And McCain is getting ready to run against him as a liberal black Democrat.

So Obama must be exactly where he should be--removed from the Looney Left, yet actually a progressive candidate.

As usual, Janet is wrong about her other assertions regarding Obama.   I'll discuss them later.

The only thing she's correct on is that Hillary will concede soon--as I said, my guess is the day after her WV triumph--when she can leave on an up-note----but her financial advisors will have told her she can't go on. Not superdelegate calculations or anything else political will drive her from the race-- but something will, real soon---cold, hard cash---the lack of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 May 08 - 01:03 PM

Not that cash is not political--it's mother's milk. Maybe that's why Janet loves politics so much.

She just wants it not to need money.   Just call her Janet Quixote.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 08 - 04:59 PM

Well, Ron, that would be the way to clean it up...remove the controlling influence of Big Money from the political process. But that is impossible given the present status quo which is that those with the Big Money are the one who determine how the $ySStem works (or doesn't), and how it shall continue to work (or not).

That's why I don't expect much (in any progressive sense) from government. I just don't believe in Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy any longer.

I expect more of the same in government, regardless of who gets elected.

That doesn't mean there aren't better and worse choices, however. It just means that the range of choice is necessarily very narrow...in any realistic sense, that is. Only a Big Money mainstream machine candidate (Democratic or Republican) can get elected. That's a fixed game.

Those who are truly quixotic will vote for Chongo Chimp this time. Or they will do a write-in vote for Kucinich or Ron Paul. Or they will vote for Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:04 PM

Does she have good legs? Cristina Kirshner of Argentina doesn't!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,PHC UK.
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:17 PM

Far away in good old Europe my friends and I feel more and more sad for America, a land that in many ways stands for the good, but is often led by those that are able to influence a small percentage, either way, of the American electorate.
The land of the hope and the free seems to us further away than ever from the leadership role we need in a world that really needs a new path.
We do not think the world needs more war, or more sabre rattling, but a great country, with a leader who can use the economic might of the USA for the simple right of mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 08 - 07:14 PM

Including its own poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:37 AM

Of course McCain is preparing to run against a "liberal" Dem who happens to be black. The Republicans ALWAYS call the Democrat(s) they run against "liberals". Yawn.

No, the thing here is--none of you Obamamaniacs can cite me any examples here. Can you counter what I'm saying about the way Obama voted on the issues I mention? And that he voted AGAINST his own party's majority? Go figure. I guess he was just voting the way he needed to vote to run for president in the general election, eh?

What a hypocrite!

Obama keeps tooting his horn about how he doesn't take any money from lobbyists.

Right, right Barack. You just take it from their Wall Street law firms and partners who technically cannot be easily labeled as a lobbyist. Except that is the business of the law firms.

So, he is technically trying not to look like the venal, lying politicians he is.

That's OK. We're going to vote for him anyway, right?

Because he makes us feel good about how we aren't racist anymore.

A vote for Obama is like a nice, big bottle of Valium for Voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:10 AM

"So, he is technically trying not to look like the venal, lying politicians he is."

Strong words from such a sweet person!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:19 AM

But they are true words, Charley. Obama is a venal politician, like most the rest of them are--but most people are playing the game of cognitive dissonance, to bamboozle themselves.

Obama isn't one of the good guys. The good guys were driven out of the game long ago, by people like the majority here who kept insisting they weren't "electable". That is the Clinton game.

I saw a great cartoon about this the other day. It is of a multiculti looking protestor carrying placards that demonstrate she is pro-environment, pro-civil rights, and--wearing a t-shirt that says in giant capital letters "KILL THEM ALL"--pro-endless war on everybody from the poor, to the oil rich...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:15 AM

Other than Kucinich, exactly who were the "good guys", Fantz???

And from your good guy list I'd suggest that if they were in Obama's position you'd be puttin' the blast on them, as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:26 AM

Bobert, you can look up the votes in the US Congress yourself. If you don't know who "the good guys" are, it is because you haven't bothered to find out. You are taking the easy way out, and voting for one of the two pro-war Democratic contenders.

Make no mistake about it, Bobert. Obama is VERY pro-empire, and VERY pro-endless war.

He is yer man.

So, if you can live with that reality, fine.

But don't expect the rest of the world to go along with your dance down the cognitive dissonance path.

Obama is one of the bad guys. Lots of people with a functioning moral compass know this--and no, they aren't Republicans.

They are the people you always claim to be one of, but clearly are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:31 AM

No, I'm not taking the easy way out, Fantz... You are... You made the "good guy" staement and now aopparently you don't have a clue who these folks are...

Plus, you have more time than I do... I'm lucky when I have a total of an hour of spare time for the pudder on any given day...

And for the record, your new handle for me is "Fantz the Proclaimer", FtP for short, because you are short on facts and longs in proclamations and opinions...

Next thing I'm expecting out of you is comparing Obama to Hitler...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:35 AM

Well Bobert, if you have an hour a day to spend on the computer, there is no excuse for you to claim you don't know no better, now is there?

Running to the Right: Barack Obama and the DLC Strategy

by Bruce Dixon / May 7th, 2008

can be read here:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/running-to-the-right-brack-obama-and-the-dlc-strategy/

But that's OK Bobert. I know you won't read it. You won't read it, because you don't want to know the truth about your boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:41 AM

And if you, or anyone reading this, is wondering who the above author is...Bruce Dixon is the managing editor of the Black Agenda Report, where this article first appeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 08 - 11:23 AM

Well, I read it.

And found it wanting. These are folks whose heads are full of electrifying, empty categpries about progressiveness, who want to create Huge Changes without doing the hard steps needed. And the article itself was a ruck of blather.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 08 - 11:54 AM

I trust Amos and if he says the article is crap then you can take it to the bank that it is crap...

There's a life-times worth of crap out there to read so, FtP, I'll take a pass...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 May 08 - 12:10 PM

So Janet, I deduce from your latest rant that you do not support Obama, for all sorts of reasons, most having to do with the fact that--shock!--money is involved in politics.

Of course it does not bother you that if you--and enough other like-minded purer-than-thou voters--do not support him, you will wind up with McCain.

So you walk down a street--say in the 17th century-- and see a house on fire. Many people have buckets of water and are trying to put the fire out. They urge you to pick up a bucket and join them. But your answer is: "Let the house burn down. We can build a much better one". And you don't stop to think there are people inside the house.

That's your attitude, in a nutshell.