BS: Israel's Next War.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:49 PM

OK, OK, let's stop all the name-calling and accusing one another of being trolls. I'm going to close this thread for today and let it cool down. If you'd like to continue the discussion, ask me by personal message tomorrow and I'll reopen it.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:12 PM

LOLOL Yeah, sure, Ghost. And I've got some prime swampland I'd like to sell you.

BTW, it doesn't matter how long ago the Frontline was made. The problem addressed in that program hasn't gotten better since then. It has only gotten worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:09 PM

More than one username? I'm afraid not.

I lurked here for many months before posting. Is that your M.O.? Accuse someone you disagree with of being schizophrenic?

You're too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:02 PM

Ghost Troll (how are you able to post under more than one username and not have your posts get deleted?), it was a Frontline documentary. There's nothing particularly controversial about Frontline documentaries. And he was just as critical of Christian fundamentalists in his opening post as he was of Jewish extremists, a point that many in this thread have conveniently overlooked.

People resort to ridicule when they are trying to defend the morally indefensible, as many in this thread have been doing. But I just thought you would like to know that he's not going to be around so you could put your energies into baiting people who will actually see and be able to appreciate your efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:54 PM

Published: 05/13/2008


Pope Benedict described Israel's 60th Independence Day as a sign of God's beneficence toward the Jews.

"I would like to congratulate the State of Israel on its 60th Independence Day," Yediot Achronot quoted Benedict as telling Motti Levy, the new Israeli ambassador to the Vatican, on Monday.

"The Holy See is united with you, and thanks God for the full realization of the Jewish people's aspirations to live in its homeland, the land of its forefathers."

In an interview with Israel Radio, Levy described meeting the pontiff as "very moving."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:41 PM

So, he uses a 3 year old video to start a hate-fest and then ducks out claiming to be too busy to read it.

Typical TROLL behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:35 AM

You all can stop baiting him now. He's going to be too busy for a while to be able to check in on y'all. Just for the record, though, he was watching videos, as he often does during his slow work times, and found the one he started this thread with and posted it, as he sometimes does with videos. That's all.


Hmm, does the USA do that for native Americans and Roma?

If there are any Roma in this country, they are not a presence that most people are aware of. Or they are so assimilated into the larger population, that they don't really look any different than anyone else and would not tend to get noticed. Native Americans have all the same rights when they live amongst everyone else (and are also often so assimilated that they don't stand out and would not tend to be noticed), but their reservations are horribly neglected by the government and the government still tries to cheat the reservations and the Indian nations out of their resources. We still have some work to do in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 10:58 AM

I've no idea about who's a rabbi and who's not. But my friend Popeye tells me that a 400 pound sailor is highly unlikely. Toot! Toot!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 08:52 AM

"Hmm, does the USA do that for native Americans and Roma? ericans and Roma?"


                      Roma? Do we have Roma here?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 08 - 08:32 AM

Gaza rocket kills Israeli, burdening truce effort
Monday, May 12, 2008 6:10:52 PM
By MARK LAVIE

A rocket fired by Palestinian militants killed a 75-year-old Israeli woman Monday, just as an Egyptian mediator was winding up truce talks in Israel -- underlining both the urgency and complexity of working out a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza's Hamas rulers.

The rocket hit a house in the village of Yesha, about four miles from the Gaza Strip. As recently as Friday, a fatal rocket attack drew reprisal Israeli airstrikes that killed five Palestinians in Gaza.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev denounced the latest attack but did not say it would halt the Gaza truce talks. "The rocket fire into Israel will end. It will end either because calm will be achieved, or Israel will act to protect its people," he said.

The talks by mediator Omar Suleiman, Egypt's powerful intelligence chief, produced no tangible results Monday, even before the deadly rocket strike. He came to discuss Egypt's months of talks with the Hamas movement and many smaller militant groups in the coastal territory.

The outline of the envisioned cease-fire would be a six-month truce, stopping near daily Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks and Israel's military reprisals. Also, Israel would ease the punishing economic blockade it imposed after Hamas seized Gaza in violence last June.

Israeli officials did not reject the elements of the package. But Prime Minister Ehud Olmert insisted on freedom for Cpl. Gilad Schalit, a soldier captured in a cross-border raid two years ago, and others demanded an end to smuggling arms into Gaza through underground tunnels from Egypt.

Suleiman did not endorse Olmert's demand, saying only that "indirect negotiations" between Israel and Schalit's captors would continue.

The disagreements illustrated the difficulty Suleiman faces in forging a truce. Israel refuses to talk with Hamas, an extremist Islamic group that does not accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East. Israel, the U.S. and European Union label it a terrorist group.

Mediators have to navigate among a dozen squabbling militant groups in Gaza, reach a tentative agreement, and only then bring Israel in.

While Olmert made freedom for the soldier a condition, other Israeli officials appeared to leave some room for maneuver. Interviewed on Army Radio, Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai was asked directly if a Gaza truce depending on Schalit's release.

"I can only say that for us it's a central issue ... and it must reach a proper level of understanding, Vilnai said.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak released an ambiguous statement saying that both "the release of Gilad Schalit and immediate progress in negotiations toward his release" were key elements in the formula.

The discrepancies reflected the criticism that Israel's government faces because of its inability to stop the rocket barrages out of Gaza.

Israelis living near Gaza are clamoring for a halt to the attacks, but weighing against a truce are Israeli fears that Hamas would use a lull to rearm, strengthen its rule and prepare for another round of fighting. Hamas officials acknowledge that is one of their goals.

Barak warned Suleiman that if the rocket fire does not stop, "Israel will have to operate more broadly in the Gaza Strip," a reference to a large-scale ground assault.

Hamas officials said Israel was trying to torpedo the possibility of a truce. "Any new conditions are an attempt to sabotage (Suleiman's) efforts," Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said.

Olmert had other concerns on his mind, distracting him from the Gaza truce efforts as well as peace negotiations with moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank.

Israeli police raided Jerusalem City Hall on Monday, looking for documents connected to their latest probe into Olmert's activities -- cash contributions he received from American businessman Morris Talansky.

The inquiry is only the latest in a series of police investigations of Olmert, and a poll published Monday before the raid indicated many Israelis have had enough. Six out of 10 surveyed said they didn't believe Olmert's denial of wrongdoing, and the same percentage doubted he could make peace with the Palestinians. The survey had a margin of error of 4.5 percentage points.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 08 - 07:26 AM

Washington Post

Yossi Melman
Tel Aviv, Israel
Yossi Melman is a senior commentator for the Israeli daily Haaretz. He specializes in intelligence, security, terrorism and strategic issues. An author of seven books on these topics, his most recent book, The Nuclear Sphinx of Tehran: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the State of Iran was published recently by Carroll & Graf.

Israel Will Thrive, Flaws and All

The Current Discussion:Israel celebrated its 60th birthday last week. Will it survive to celebrate its 100th?

This is an ill-drafted question that shouldn't have been asked in the first place. Israel shouldn't be singled out. The same question could be asked about many states whose existence is questioned or challenged by conflicting claims of sovereignty – in the Balkans, the Russian Federation, China, Africa or South America, and above all in the Middle East. Almost every state in this region must confront territorial demands from neighbors or from minority groups seeking to destroy or disintegrate them. The same question could apply to Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, Syria, Iran or Iraq.

Nevertheless, Israel has been until recently the only UN member state whose right to exist is denied by a substantial number of other UN members. (Kosovo recently became the second.)

That's the real issue hiding behind this PostGlobal question, and behind the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At the heart of the matter is the stubborn refusal of many Arab and Muslim nations to accept Israel – and reality.

I am pretty confident that once this fundamental obstacle is genuinely overcome (by peace treaties and wholehearted acceptance) all the other stumbling blocks – occupation, settlements, Jerusalem, refuges, security arrangements and weapons of mass destruction - can be solved if good will and good intentions are shown.

The unfortunate Palestinians and their uncritical supporters are the only big losers of this "ostrich" policy. They could have had a state of their own in 1948, again in 1979 (after the Camp David Peace Accords), or again in 2000 (during the next Camp David summit.) Instead, they chose to resort to an all-or-nothing approach.

That illogical attitude is regrettable, and difficult to understand. It stands in sharp contrast to the UN Charter and many UN resolutions. Israel was created because of the long historical desire of Jews to return to their ancient homeland, because of long-standing Christian anti-Semitism and Muslim anti-Jewishness, because of centuries of racism and persecutions, including the Holocaust. It was created with the legitimacy of the UN and the international community.

Despite living in a constant shadows of war, terrorism and threats (the most blatant at the moment by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to "wipe Israel off the map,") Israel has thrived and succeeded against all odds.

My country is not ideal. We have many flaws that we need to fix. But we are as good as any other true democratic nation on this planet.

In our 60 years of existence we have managed to build a sound democratic system, a vibrant society, a strong military force, excellent scientific and technological foundations, advanced agriculture and industries, and vivid arts. We have fostered healthy self criticism and soul-searching. We have done all this while absorbing and settling millions of immigrants.

We may not have turned into 'Light from Zion' as our Zionist founding fathers dreamt and hoped for, but certainly we are admired for our achievements and survival stamina by billions, and we have attracted great interest from the world media. These are accomplishments that cannot be written off.

Therefore, I have no doubt that Israel will continue to prosper and, if needed, continue to defend itself. Israel is here to stay another sixty years and beyond. The sooner the rejectionist front realizes that, the better for all parties – the Palestinians above all. Eventually we will also achieve peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:07 AM

Hmm, does the USA do that for native Americans and Roma?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:22 AM

and will Israel later be freed from the grasp if its invaders and colonists?

Or maybe Israel will learn the lessons that were learned by the United States and South Africa, and extend to the indegenes in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem the status of human being, giving them citizenship to the political entity that now occupies the land of their ancestors, and the same rights as are now enjoyed by the European colonists. Of course, that would require the ability to actually see them as human beings... but anything is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:02 AM

I wonder - if the English (etc) occupation of Ireland from before 1600 was wrong, and the IRA bombers were not terrorists but freedom fighters, and the liberation of the "Irish Free State" was right and the impending absorption of Ulster into Ireland (wait and see) is right, why was the European invasion of Israel and the displacement of its indegenes right, why are the Palestinian bombers terrorists not freedom fighters, and will Israel later be freed from the grasp if its invaders and colonists?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 May 08 - 11:45 PM

SOL:: Now that is some great humor!!!

      Hopefully, Jack uses the right bait to catch some Gefilte Fish--you need a nice bit of horse radish.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 08 - 10:22 PM

Frankly, I don't think any of these problems are going to be solved until we finally stamp out the sourge of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:50 PM

Are you a Rabbi or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:26 PM

I always wonder why it is Jack who either starts or partakes vigorously in threads that are inflamatory to Israel and to Jews in general. Somewhere in his past he must have had some bad experiences where Jews were involved.

I am going to conjecture as to what might have happened As we all know, Jack came from this country from the island of Newfoundland and as his handle suggests was a Newfie fisherman. He had a very successful fishing business going until one day, a fleet of huge Israeli fishing trawlers flying the blue and white Star of David showed up off the Grand Banks and depleted the fisheries in order to make Gefilte Fish which was being sold to the Jewish community in the USA. With no fish supplies available, Jack was forced out of business and had to leave Newfoundland. But unlike other Newfies who migrated to the urban areas of Ontario, Jack had a plan. He moved south of the border to the Redneck area located on the border between Alabama & Georgia. No Jew would ever move into this hostile environment. Jack now goes out every day and puts his fishing pole into the Chatahoochie River where he fishes for Catfish. Here he can feel comfotable because he knows that no Jewish fisherman will ever invade his turf. Why? Because Catfish is not kosher and can never be used to make Gefite Fish. Jack is proud because he finally outsmarted those Jews.

Although this story is pure fiction, so is everything else that Jack posts in relation to Israel and Jews.

And that is my 2 cents for the day.
                                                       SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 May 08 - 08:10 PM

Well Jack, you old sailorman you, seems like you like sand a lot. A lot more than crops to feed people.   Why not become a Bedouin and live in your tent and enjoy the sunsets over the sand dunes while looking for a mirage.

Reminds of a great story---man is dying of thirst and comes across a stand in the desert that sells neckties. He gasps for water and the proprietor says that there is an oasis with a nice restaurant about a mile ahead---how about buying a tie. Hell with ties---I need water, says the thirsty man. He continues on and about an hour later crawls back---sell me a tie---the damned oasis restaurant won't admit you without a necktie.

Bet you think the tie concession is owned by and Israeli. I bet the Oasis Restaurant is and the tie concessionaire is sitting on an oil well in the desert with a rather impressive headress----and a nice tie.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 May 08 - 07:37 PM

Mr. SOL

I agree with all you have posted.

The clones on the throne removed my posting with weblinks from this morning.

The "information/truth/evidence" for the five dancing Mossads comes from some truly bizarre websources. I posted their links - but you can look them up if you want. (a palestinian and a so-called catholic one and a third) True WACKjobs. The wildest one (too bizare to even link to)has Monica Lewinsky being am undercover Mossad agent that sedduced BOTH Bill and Hillary.

The most valid one is a 40 second clip of an Israeli TV interview with the five men returned home after 10 weeks in US jail.

The clones on the throne have their agandas too.

PAX, Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 May 08 - 07:08 PM

Bill Hahn

Flowers blooming in the desert, is not a miracle. Its irrigation. In much of Israel it is damaging the environment. It is just more evidence of colonization.

Its time to put away the fairy tales and look at reality in the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Freethinker
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:10 PM

Bill, I thank you for a rational dialogue and though we disagree on some things I can respect your approach in presenting your point of view. This kind of dialogue is a good
model for what the world needs now. I think that this is what Carter is attempting to do.
I have no illusions about some Islamic leaders and their attempts at creating an institutional theocracy, some through violence. There are some rational voices in the Islamic world, however, and we must appeal to their better judgement.

There are rational voices in Israel as well and many find their way into "Har-Eretz".
We can be grateful that there is not a unanimous interest in fueling the war machine
and that there are intelligent minds guiding us toward peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:00 PM

Freethinker: I may not agree with all your comments but I surely appreciate them since you present them in a most civilized manner with a view to all sides. We surely do agree on Mr. Carter. His IQ, of which you write, does not surprise me. I won't even guess where Dubya comes in on a vocabulary portion of that.


Yes, by the way, Mr. Carter is our best hope for moderation in the area. HOpefully he will be around for a long time.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Freethinker
Date: 12 May 08 - 05:52 PM

"One can properly dispute everyone of your comments since my comments were based on fact."

Factoids. Each one can be questioned for accuracy.


" As to the last comment of yours--about political winds. Gee--no other nation ever does that except the U S and Israel. Surely not the Arab nations.   Which goes back to my original comment re: peace can only come through good will or intentions on all sides---and that goes anywhere in the world. It does not mean caving in as that kindly gent from Britain did when he met the kindly Mr. Hitler."

It is not analogous. We know the intentions of many of the Islamic leaders. We must talk to them and not dismiss them entirely as criminals. The Chamberlain analogy is an old saw but not applicable to today. "Caving in" is the language of the war-mongers. It's posturing and chest-beating. The truth is that some Americans and Israelis don't know much about the Islamic cultures and how to deal with them. They prefer to demonize them. They are not Hitler. Some are fanatical and some are more rational. They come in many different sects and persuasions. FDR was far more prudent about entering the Second World War then either Bush or Ohmert is today. You don't see that kind of leadership now. Old solutions do not apply today.

" As to Jimmy Carter---one of the most idealistic people to enter the national stage in ages. Sadly his administration failed because he was, surely, no politician."

Yes and someday the American people will wake up to the fact that they don't need
just another politician to sell them a bill of goods. There is nothing wrong with being
idealistic and as for the failure of his adminstration, it was more the failure of the American public not to appreciate the value of this man. Instead they opted for demagoguery. BTW, in measuring IQ's, Carter came out above many other US presidents.
It's just that many Americans have allowed themselves to succumb to stupidity.

" He was and is an idealist. His later years have proved that and also proved that he gets more results now than the later batch of presidents. "

And as a result, he is the best hope for the Mid-East politically now. When he was in office, he did good works but was sabotaged by Republican forces in whose interests
lie an interminable Mid-East conflict which is good for war business. Reagan bullied his way into the public arena through a disingenuous personality that put poor people on the street, paved the way for an economic collapse in the US. And yet many feel that his Adminstration was successful compared to Carter's. So much for success.

Fortunately in Israel today there are enlightened voices that unfortunately are being suppressed. Uri Avnery in particular. Other enlightened journalists are Dahr Jamail,
Noam Chomsky, and Juan Cole. They have more knowledge about the Mid-East problems than the leading "pundits" of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: bankley
Date: 12 May 08 - 05:50 PM

A Jewish gentleman had been praying daily at the Wailing Wall for years and years. He prayed for peace and understanding between the Jewish people, Arabs and Christians and harmony amongst all God's children from the many nations and cultures in the Middle East... a reporter heard about this man's daily prayers and wanted to do an interview with him on the 60th anniversary of Israel's statehood...

She approaced the elderly gentleman and said.... "You've been praying daily for peace and harmony at the temple mount for so long. In light of all the continuing violence and turmoil... how do you feel?"

The old man paused and said...








"Vell,,,,,    I feel like I've been talking to a fucking wall!"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 May 08 - 05:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:36 PM

"Israel created a democratic state in the Middle East"

Israel also created a theocratic state in the Middle East.

"The desert did bloom"

Replacing arid lands with cities by expelling its inhabitants is
much like what happened to the Native Americans in the U.S.

"Education gave us some world class scientists and professionals"

Education did not give us compassion and understanding for other cultures and
their needs. It apparently did not teach tolerance.

"3d World nations rcvd technical aid in agriculture and other areas."

Some did and others didn't depending on which way the political wind blew.

GUEST--Nice to be anonymous---hell, you even made my comments anonymous. Why not give me the credit for those statements since I stand by them.

One can properly dispute everyone of your comments since my comments were based on fact. As to the last comment of yours--about political winds. Gee--no other nation ever does that except the U S and Israel. Surely not the Arab nations.   Which goes back to my original comment re: peace can only come through good will or intentions on all sides---and that goes anywhere in the world. It does not mean caving in as that kindly gent from Britain did when he met the kindly Mr. Hitler.

   Sad that this thread has deteriorated into personal attacks and vindictiveness by people who will only look at their own view as the correct one and then personally attack others.

   As to Rabbi Sol--while I do not have to vouch for him I can attest that he is a Rabbi (many persons are Rabbis without congregations---as there are Ministers without same). SO--Jack you good ole sailorman---can you prove that you are in the human species? Who will attest to that? I think I can guess

   As to Jimmy Carter---one of the most idealistic people to enter the national stage in ages. Sadly his administration failed because he was, surely, no politician. He was and is an idealist. His later years have proved that and also proved that he gets more results now than the later batch of presidents.

Besides---he had a nice mother---NOW--altogether let us sing a medley of songs about Mom---from Yiddishe Mama to Mother Macrea.

   Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 08 - 04:13 PM

Yes! It's entirely possible that Jimmy Carter might be wrong, but to go after him for simply trying to be helpful, the way that David Horowitz character has, just doesn't make any sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Freethinker
Date: 12 May 08 - 04:01 PM

"The UN partitioned the land at the end of the British Mandate. Partition would have worked--hopefully--had the Arab nations not attacked."

This is sheer speculation. There must have been a reason for Arab agression.

" That they lost and also lost land was their own (un)doing. Palestinans left, at first, on their own accord with the thought of returning when the "Zionist terrorists" were pushed into the sea. How unfortunate that it did not work out that way."

This is spin. There is no substantiation for this view. They were pushed out period.

"Later comes the 1967 war, then the Yom Kippor war. Let me ask---who started those battles?"

They were aggravated by both sides. There was a predisposition on the part of Israelis
at that time to forgo any peace process. It was a unilateral attack based on political
considerations that did not include involving the UN. As in most hostilities of a
national nature, the conditions for overreaction were set up years in advance.

"Moving to your Gaza comments. The Israelis left unequivocally. What happened ---"

Not true. There were strings attached and this had to do with the fact that Israel
was not able to relinquish its control in the area.

"Palestinians fought amongst themselves and then started shelling Israel. Even Egypt was, justifiably, incensed and forbade entry into their nation at that point."

Palestinians began to shell Israel because they felt intimidated by the pretense of
the Israeli's to give up their control of Gaza. It was an unfortunate and desperate move.

"Let us move to another thought now. Nuclear proliferation. Up to this point only Israel has kept Iraq, Syria, and Iran from those WMDs."

The leading export of Israel today is "security systems". Israel has motivated Iran to
want to build nuclear weaponry by its military saber-rattling. Israel has a larger stockpile of WMD's than any of these other countries who perceive that as a threat.

" Best thank your lucky stars for that. The USSR was a nation that one could deal with."

The USSR has a history of authoritarian and dictatorial policies. The very idea that one
can deal effectively with a nation that ignores human rights and proceeds along the lines of military competition is absurd.

"As to the comments by some other posters---Golan Hts. Again--who started that fiasco"

Revenge and blame is always passed on to the "enemy" without assuming any responsibility for the actions of an aggressor nation. This can be said for Israel as
well as the Mid-East aggressors.

"(and by the way there is a wonderful film on the subject of the reason they lost it---THE IMPOSSIBLE SPY).(The spy in question is now long deceased since he was executed by the Syrians and his body has still not been returned to Israel."

The idea of "spies" is redolent of a C movie.   

"As to dual citizenship. To the best of my knowledge quite a few nations allow that---Austria is one that I know of (and I turned it down given my personal history with that wonderful place which was so welcoming to Jews in the 1930s and on)."

Austria and Israel both share a history of aggression. The "Holocaust" was truly a
horrendous event but did not, in its wake, suggest revenge or reactionary militarism
but should have opened the eyes of humanity to a peaceful solution to the world's problems.

" My own view is that peace is possible--it always is if there is understanding on all sides and nations put self-interest aside in the quest for it."

It is not only possible but imperative if the world is not to be blown up. Should Israel make the mistake of a nuclear bombing of Mid-East countries, it would be contributing
to the destruction of understanding in the name of self-interest.

" So far it has not happened but it seems that now even Saudi Arabia is softening its position given their problems with some of their brethren. Jordan and only Jordan saw in advance the benefit of a mutual relationship with Israel---and wanted the Palestenians out of Jordan proper. Of course King Abdullah was assassinated So much for the Arab brotherhood."

Remember that the peace advocates in Israel, Rabin and Begin were both assassinated
by Israelis. Jimmy Carter is the only politician today who understands that if two
opposing sides want blood, they need to talk to each other. The avoidance of talks
with Hamas (which whether anyone likes it or not as the official elected representative
of Palestinians today) is futile to any peaceful cooperation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:49 PM

It never occurred to me that Sol might really be a Rabbi.

(Which is not to give JtS any credit for this thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:39 PM

Sol, why do you feel that you are entitled to demand a degree of proof from others that you are not willing to provide for your own wild claims?

I, also, would like to know whether or not you are really a Rabbi. Your bio in your myspace page says only that you are a retired charter bus sales manager, and that you are the program director of a folk club. A Google search on "Rabbi Sol Zeller" produced no results whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:29 PM

Elderly Israeli woman killed by Gaza rocket

By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Monday, 12 May 2008

A 75 year old Israeli woman was killed yesterday by a rocket fired from Gaza as Israel suggested any truce in the Strip depended on the release of the Army corporal seized almost two years ago.

The woman died after the rocket struck a house in Yesha, nine miles from Gaza's eastern border and further than the usual targets of Qassam rockets. Islamic Jihad said it had fired rockets at the time of the fatal attack.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/elderly-israeli-woman-killed-by-gaza-rocket-826862.html?r=RSS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:02 PM

........Israel a democracy.....I think not.
It is a state that uses death squads against Palestinians as a matter of routine.It is a state which has arrested many of the elected Palestinian Authority and is a state which will not define its borders because it has embarked on a land grab mission against its neighbours.
However,I do think its best days are behind it.It is a state that is rotten at its core; after all it was founded on the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of the indiginous Palestinian people who have lived on that land for hundreds and quite possibly thousands of years.
To maintain its grip it has to continually steal and occupy Palestinian land.It has to bulldoze Palestinian farms and orchards and fire rockets into the crowded tenements blocksand streets of Gaza.This week a Gazan schoolteacher was beheaded when Israeli soldiers exploded a device on her front door leaving her three terrified children to scream on their own while the Israeli military occupied the street outside.
Israel was given a bloody nose by the Lebanese Resistance two summers ago and is finding it increasingly difficult to bludgeon the Palestinian people or others in the region.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:26 PM

And this article is supposed to prove that these Israelis were Mossad agents?

Having served on many juries as well as testifying as an expert witness in proceedings before courts as well as administrative law agencies, I am well versed in the "rules of evidence".

I can categorically state that no judge or hearing officer would ever accept the contents of this article as hard evidence or even circumstantial evidence.

Any litigant or attorney would literally be laughed out of the court room if this was presented as "evidence" to the presiding judge.

Come on Jack. You got to do better than that?

                                                       SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:12 PM

Here is an interview with some of the young men in question.

I do not support the bigoted statements on some of the posts, and I do not know if these men were Mossad agents. I'm posting this so we have something to work with beyond accusations and allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:07 PM

Rabbi-Sol, I believe this article refers to the incident alleged by Jack the Sailor.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:03 PM

You show first Sol.

Your's was the first claim, the most extreme and the most libelous,

Please show that Jimmy Carter met with specific people who danced to celebrate the terrorist attacks on 9/11.

Back it up or retract the statement.

Or are your the stereotyping warmongering bigot that you appear to be?

and while you are at it...

How about some proof that you are a Rabbi?

I said what I meant to say Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Peace
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:00 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:25 PM

Israel will always be at war with it's neighbours because they have the backing of America and her friends, they are oppressors, and they starve, torture, and kill innocent men, women and children. I know that on both sides that there is terrorists not just the one side all sides and as I said Israel will always be at war because what they are doing to other countries was once done to them and no-one is trying to stop it so WW3 will start in the middle east, thanks Israel



Could some clone please delete that Guest post? Not because he/she's an idiot, but because he/she is using the Guest name and that's a no-no.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:53 PM

Jack claims that there is a ton of documentation to prove his point.

I am still waiting for the one shred of evidence that I have asked for.

I am calling you on this one Jack. Either lay your cards on the table or fold your hand.
                                                       SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:44 PM

All Jews are not monsters. All Palestinians are not. Some are. (Jack the sailor)

Logic 101: "All As are not Bs" is equivalent to "No As are Bs". This may not be followed by "Some As are Bs" without loss of logic.

You may have meant to write: "Not all Jews are monsters. Not all Palestinians are. Some are."

The content of your posts is even much worse than the form. But you are incorrigible with regard to content in this field of politics.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Donuel
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:30 PM

Jeez, documentaion sounds like work. I prefer fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:26 PM

I've noticed often here at the Mudcat that when when we see the phrase:

"There is a ton of documentation on this and its easy to find"

It means that the writer is NOT going to provide any links or documentation. Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Donuel
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:07 PM

Both of my neighbors across the street are radical right wing Jews.
One is a neo con GOP member and the other is a cult evangelical Jewish family. They do not associate.

They have both taught me by their actions that they are dangerous people with little tolerence for select people or facts.



I can not acess the frontline video so I wonder if they imply that that blowing up the temple on the mount would merely be the fuse to begin a full scale nuclear exchange.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:43 PM

So, it sound like the Islamists are playing into the hands of the Christian fundamentalist concept of "The End of Days." All the "fudies" had to do is to sit there and get killed--like the stupid idiots they've proven themselves to be--and all will be fine with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,G.I. Joe
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:28 PM

This is not just a conflict between Moslem and Jew it is the beginning of a war for the existence of western civilisation. the fundamentist Moslems believe that the mahdi has returned and the rest of the world must be converted or killed. If they get the bomb first Israel and then the Great Satan [the USA] is next..
Drop one on NYC and you will have 4 mil. dead or radio active.
Sorry but the world is not all going to hold hands and sing Kumbya.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: pdq
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:44 AM

You are really such a jackass when it comes to these things. - Jack the Sailor

I'm sure I am not the only one offended but such language, especially when directed at a Rabbi.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 08 - 08:47 AM

I'll only say that Jimmy Carter is one of the few people walking around on the face of the planet for whom I have a great deal of respect.

             I don't know a lot about the complexities of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, so until I do, I'll keep my mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:23 AM

The above post was mine.

The language was strong, but I think warranted. Sol keeps displaying a stereotypical, racist, attitude about Israeli colonization.

A few Palestinians may have danced because of 9/11. I've never seen any proof of that other than footage provided by the Zionists. Such things are easy to fake.

A few Mossad agents, who were spying in America illegally, also danced in New York. There is a ton of documentation on this its easy to find. The dancers gave interviews when they went back to Israel.

All Jews are not monsters. All Palestinians are not. Some are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:41 AM

You are really such a jackass when it comes to these things.

I'll tell you what.

You prove this "Americans have the right to be outraged at this man who is selling his soul to the very people who danced in the street when the twin towers fell. "

Prove that the Hamas Members that Carter met with danced on 9/11.

Talk about ridiculous and preposterous.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:30 AM

Mossad members danced on their van in New York City when the towers were burning. They were so conspicuous that several people reported them and they were picked up by the authorities. That doesn't mean that Israelis don't deserve peace and respect. It just means a few of them were evil minded and bad apples.

Jack,
      Do you have even a shred of PROOF to back up such a ridiculous and preposterous allegation? If so, lay it out on the table hear and now for all to see.
                                                      SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 May 08 - 11:05 PM

Mossad members danced on their van in New York City when the towers were burning. They were so conspicuous that several people reported them and they were picked up by the authorities. That doesn't mean that Israelis don't deserve peace and respect. It just means a few of them were evil minded and bad apples.

Carter is trying to make peace. He is using Christian principles. That makes him an enemy of the Likudnics and someone to be despised by those who have not progressed even to an eye for an eye.

For the Zionist colonialists, its a thousand eyes for any eye and that just fuels the conflict and allows them to tear down more houses and grab more land.