Musician Rudeness

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:31 AM

Dear Moley, remember our immortal Winston: "But in the morning, I will be sober and you will still be ugly."

(That Moley should choose to have a go on a thread about musician rudeness - the irony! :-)

One thing that hasn't really been touched on is the question of why the non-players are there in the first place. If it's a semi-formal singaround or session, or a formal folk club performance, then anyone there should know the score - namely STFU or at least keep the noise down if you do need to talk. And amplification here makes sure that people at the back can hear as clearly as people in the front row.

But if you're in a busy pub and other people in the pub have come there to have a chat and a pint with their mates, it's a bit of a different situation. The funny thing is that most people *are* still listening, so if you start up something unusual then you might suddenly find the room goes quiet as everyone stops to listen. The mistake then is to think you've got them and they're all yours - actually the noise level is likely to increase afterwards, as everyone starts talking at once! :-/

The big mistake of course is pushing your voice to try and respond. If people are listening, they're listening. If they're not particularly interested, then "SHE! LET! GO! MY! HAND! AND! SHE! MOVED! THROUGH! THE! FAIR!" isn't exactly going to change their mind. Even so though, learning that there's a time and place for delicate finger-picked arrangements and there's a time for balls-out strumming is a good lesson. Amplification in this kind of setting just lets the former be audible - it doesn't mean it's going to increase the number of people interested in what you're doing.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it sing (or listen to) folk music...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:47 AM

At Cambridge last year I was sat in front of a particularly loud drunken group (especially the women) who had not listened to a single act. I finally said to them that nobody minded talking, but could they keep the screaming and shouting down. I was told that if I wanted to listen to the music I should go down to the front. I stood up, walked into the middle of their circle and said in a loud voice "I don't want to go to the front, I want you to shut the f**k up, is that a problem?" Like Jon, this was met with a round of applause and the group seemed to take the hint. Sometimes you just have to take the subtle approach.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:52 AM

Interesting point Grab.
I often play at the George Session nr London Bridge it is in a bar used by the general public and it can be very noisy and as the music increases in volume so does the talking.I can accept that and expect that and it does in no way effect my evening and if the audience joins in or appreciates the music even over their talking it is a bonus.Perhaps from Folk Clubs I see it differently I go there expecting to perform in front of an audience,who are completely focussed on all the acts and react accordingly to the performance.Perhaps I got it wrong.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:01 AM

And amplification here makes sure that people at the back can hear as clearly as people in the front row.

Or, as I used to think on singers nights in Llandudno for example, that everyone taking a turn would be heard.

---
I'm mostly in sessions in main bars of pubs these days. Background noise goes with that and isn't usually (I have for example struggled to here Irish pipes 3ft from me) a problem and theres not usually anything you can do if it does get silly, apart from hope next week is quieter.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:12 AM

A folk club I used to go to was set in one small bar of a pub that had at least three bars. It was a weekly open event and we did have regular 'audience'. One week there was a group of about 4/5 people who were obviously not interested in the music at all, just sat in the middle of the room chatting away very loudly, in spite of the fact that there were other bars where they could sit. I finally asked them, if they were not listening to the music, to go to one of the other bars as they were spoiling the enjoyment of those of us who wanted to hear the performers. They got huffy but did leave.

We also had a few performers who wanted quiet while they were doing their bit (usually the same songs week after week after week.....) but would sit and chat, relatively quietly, while others were performing. there were also the partners of performers who would take the evening as an opportunity to catch up with gossip with each other, regardless of what was going on in the circle. I ended up dropping that particular club after a while as it really did get on my nerves to see such crass behaviour.

I go to listen to the performers and think that to talk whilst someone else is performing is the height of bad manners - I've had accusations of being unfriendly because I won't join in conversations when someone is singing. My attitude is, if you want a drink and a chat go do it somewhere where you don't disturb those of us that want to listen.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:26 AM

I think sometmes, in noisy pubs, people can be listening "out of the corner of their ears".

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:08 PM

Grab, you say "(That Moley should choose to have a go on a thread about musician rudeness - the irony! :-)" I find that the same irony id applicable to you. On my second day here in this forum, the only rudeness I've seen is yours and no one elses. To the rest of the posters, sorry for the thread drift

Subject: Lyr Add: YOUR MIND IS ON VACATION (Mose Allison)
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:37 PM

Somehow, all of this just brought to mind an old tune from jazz/blues performer, Mose Allison:

You're sittin' there yakkin' right in my face,
I guess I'm gonna have to put you in your place.
You know if silence was golden,
You couldn't raise a dime,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime.

You're quotin' figures and droppin' names,
You're tellin' stories about the dames.
You're over-laughin' when things ain't funny,
You tryin' to sound like big money.
If talk was criminal, you'd lead a life o' crime,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime.

You know that life is short; talk is cheap,
Don't be making promises that you can't keep.
If you don't like this song I'm singing, just grin and bear it.
All I can say is if the shoe fits wear it.
And if you must keep talkin', please try to make it rhyme,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is working overtime."

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:45 PM

Its all a bit low key really.

If you go swimming, you get people sticking their elbow in your lughole as they try and do the butterfly. They dive on you and the water goes up your nose. Some bloody psychopaths wear a little rubber hat, nose clip, goggles and special swimming gloves, they swim everywhere underwater with their eyes closed go they keep biffing you. One time I saw this nice lady who was just trying to keep her shampoo and set out of the water soaked like a drowned rat, by one of these buggers doing a racing turn.

You don't get anything like that in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:55 PM

But you used to get streakers,. who was it that streaked at Sidmouth?Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:56 PM

And if you must keep talkin', please try to make it rhyme,
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is working overtime."reminds me of WAV.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:01 PM

But you used to get streakers,. who was it that streaked at Sidmouth?Dick Miles

Surely not - it doesn't bear thinking about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:19 PM

Or, as I used to think on singers nights in Llandudno for example, that everyone taking a turn would be heard.

Yeah, also a factor. I'm sure everyone knows someone who wouldn't be heard beyond the middle four seats on the first row. :-/ Sometimes they're shy; sometimes they're unsure of their material; sometimes they're old and their voice isn't that strong (even though their song choice, playing and knowledge may make them well worth listening to); sometimes they think the breathy "pop styling" sound is what they should aim for; and more often they just weren't naturally gifted with a perfect voice and haven't found out yet about singing lessons for maximising what they've got.

Re what you were saying about noisy pubs, Jon, a club round our way moved locations a couple of years back. Previously it had been a mix of individuals singing with guitars and session tunes, in a very quiet pub with pretty good acoustics. The new place doesn't have great acoustics, it's fairly busy, and the only space for us was right next to the pool tables, so you've got people around who can't be expected to be quiet and listen (they have as much right to a chat over a game of pool as we do to play music). The club kind of stumbled a bit, but the singers dropped out gradually, and the players carried on and brought their friends. It's now evolved into a rather good tune session instead, because that's what suits the environment best. We could have used a small amp and mics and tried to keep the singing going, but I think it's much better the way it is.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:51 PM

Hope the singers managed to find something else Grab.

The ones I go to are tune sessions. One of the venues does have a couple of mixed song/tune very informal club/singaround nights and I believe they work well. I don't think a casual singaround would work in the other. Apart from possible noise problems, it's a big barn (well it's called The Shed) of a room.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: My guru always said
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:24 PM

I go to listen to the performers and think that to talk whilst someone else is performing is the height of bad manners - I've had accusations of being unfriendly because I won't join in conversations when someone is singing.

I'm with you Jacqui, I'm sure I'm getting a reputation for trying to stop people talking to me through performances! Mind you, there are times when I'm sure I've been a culprit myself....

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:29 PM

I try very hard to avoid conversation during music mostly for my own sake, and only secondarily out of respect/sympathy for the performers.

Not only do I prefer to listen to the music without interruption, I am really only able to hear the music. Whether it's because of old age, or the cumulative effect of countless evenings in live-music venues, or whatever, I can't hear a word anyone tries to say to me when even moderately loud music is being played. And I certainly don't intend to make any extra effort to participate in conversations that I do not wish to prolong!

My personal experience is that most people, most of the time, behave fairly appropriately in regard to maintaining a level of decorum in the face of musical performance. Of course, I live in a town where MOST music venues are NOT "folk," the music is generally pretty loud (jazz played by multiple horns and drums or blues/rock/pop on electric guitars/bass and drums), and crowds are not expected to maintain respectful silence.

However, at the few venues where quiet attentive listening is the norm ~ not only for folk/acoustic music, for serious jazz, too ~ the audience is generally well-behaved, if only because they're interested in getting their money's worth.

I'm a little surprised and dismayed to learn that audience rudeness, and fellow-musician rudeness, seems to be such a common problem in the UK. Holding sessions and singarounds, etc., in public houses where there is no admission charge might explain noisy audiences, but there's no reasonable explanation, and no excuse, for players making life miserable for each other...

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:41 PM

We played at a coffee house folk club in Phoenix Arizona 10 years or so ago, and there was absolute silence during performances.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:43 PM

I've played to small audiences too :)

G

(Some people will say, 'Not surprised')

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It depends on the situation, Poppagater. Some need/should have hush but in the instrumental sessions, I'm not usually bothered. To be honest I like the situation where people can come in and have a chat, may or may not be listening to the music and we are playing amongst ourselves more than performing. It's a nice relaxing environment.

That said, there can be limits on noise and I think problems I can have trying to play are usually:

1. Chat close to where your playing. Most commonly that is from the participants themselves and I think a number of us do chat a little once in a while at some point while others are playing (but not while singing). I know, I for one have accidentally have got a bit louder than I thought I was... but (at least with most people) a look from another musician is all that's needed.

2. A very noisy room. eg. Sometimes, for whatever reason, everyone seems to be shouting rather than talking normally...

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:24 PM

PoppaGator

I'm a little surprised and dismayed to learn that audience rudeness, and fellow-musician rudeness, seems to be such a common problem in the UK.

Is it? Bad behaviour tends to stand out in the mind but is it really that widespread? Remember that Alan was talking about folk clubs not sessions. At the folk clubs I go to, people are generally pretty well behaved.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:52 PM

You are right Snail it does stand out and is probably not widespread as you say ,but when it spoils a good evening,you remember it.
Do you notice the amount of audience movement during performances in Marquees at Festivals whilst the artist is performing?
One of the lessons I have learned is not to look at the audience whilst performing on stage,it has been to my cost in the past.A yawn when your telling a monologue,someone in the front row reading a paper (The Festival Organiser),Someone getting up.or arriving half way through a number.I expect you have all been there.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:04 PM

From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:24 PM

PoppaGator

I'm a little surprised and dismayed to learn that audience rudeness, and fellow-musician rudeness, seems to be such a common problem in the UK.

Is it? Bad behaviour tends to stand out in the mind but is it really that widespread? Remember that Alan was talking about folk clubs not sessions. At the folk clubs I go to, people are generally pretty well behaved.

I recently heard about a Sussex poet who had to be ejected for making stupid comments[while a performer was singing] about Scarborough Fair, I also remember having a set of mine disrupted by drunks[25 years ago] at a festival, the MC who was ineffectual[If my memory serves me right it was Robin Garside]did nothing.
Isolated incidents,but to those concerned pretty upsetting.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:11 PM

then there are MCS,that give crap/or nothing introductions.
it is the MCs job,to give every performer a good introduction,whether they like the performer or not,it is particularly galling,when it is a fellow professional performer,[who should know better].
the problem is so many people are egotistical and cant envisage how they might react to their own selfish insensitive actions.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:19 PM

Captain Birdseye

I also remember having a set of mine disrupted by drunks[25 years ago] at a festival

So it's not such a new phenomeon.

Isolated incidents,but to those concerned pretty upsetting.

Just so, not the behaviour of an entire generation as some people on this thread seem to think.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:30 AM

may or may not be listening to the music and we are playing amongst ourselves more than performing. It's a nice relaxing environment.

Less so if you're a solo performer singing unaccompanied!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:52 AM

Jim Carroll.
the streaker was a woman.
.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:05 AM

Less so if you're a solo performer singing unaccompanied!

Of course but at least in the session environment, I think most musicians will follow the ettiquitte of hush for the singer and in some, eg. a separate room, circumstances it might be possible to shush others for the song...

So many different set ups, suiting different people, having different rules/etiquette aren't there?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:33 AM

Some interactive interpolations become part of a participative performance.

The harmony/countermelody line on the end of the chorus:

CH: ... round and round INT: round and round, round and round

CH: ...for a whale INT: for a whale, for a whale, for a bleeding great big whale


John Barden "... smiles on my countenance, and sits on my knee"
Saboteur "or the other way round"


And so on. But that's just good clean fun.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:19 PM

There's a simple distinction to be made between a session and a folk club. The session is an informal - possibly impromptu - gathering, normally in a public room, of people playing 'for the craic'. Other people have gone there to drink and socialise, often not knowing that there would be such a session in progress. In these circumstances, I don't think most of the musicians would expect silence. If they do, they can always find a quieter venue, or a quieter night. A folk club is normally in a private room. People pay to get in, and it is reasonable to expect that they have gone there to listen to the music. The person singing has, presumably, spent a certain amount of their time learning and arranging their material, and practicing it to an acceptable standard to present to a paying audience. The standard will, of course, vary; one would expect a professional to have done a lot more 'homework' than the amateur floor singer. But, whatever the status of the performer, people should respect their efforts, and one would expect musicians, in particular, to do so. Talking over the music is arrogant, and disrespectful, not only to the singer/musician, but to the whole audience.
And I don't know who Snail was referring to in his last post, but I, for one, am not blaming any particular generation. My earlier contention was that there has been a general decline in standards of behaviour in (English) society.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:43 PM

Payment is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:46 PM

Well, it should be.....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 03:55 PM

If a folk club is running in it's own room it has as much rights to expect quiet from the audience if it charges for entry or not. Mind you, I suppose payment for manners would be an interesting concept...

Standards are irrelevant too (although may be of interest in terms of what is considered value for money when door charges are applied - dealt with elsewhere recently). In any case, in my experience, the "entry level" standard at the informal sessions tends to be higher than at an open to all singers night.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:37 PM

It was always accepted in folk clubs that people were there to listen. It was also accepted that anyone was entitled - depending on time constraints, of course - to a floor spot, and everyone was given the courtesy of silence, whether amateur or professional. The standard WAS irrelevant. If you didn't like a particular floor singer, you could always head for the bar. You'd only lose a few minutes. As regards the value-for-money question, in those days, there was normally a resident group/singer, who was usually either pro or more often semi-pro. So they were able to maintain a certain standard, so that even if one or two floor spots were a bit iffy, the audience still felt that they had had their money's worth during the course of the evening. Compared with, for instance, the cinema, a folk club always was pretty good value for money. If the resident group wasn't up to the mark, however, the punters would find a better club, and the dodgy one wouln't last very long. Thus natural selection maintained the general standard.
Somebody back there said they blamed TV. Not sure whether this was meant to be serious or not, but in fact it has some relevance. Because people are used to entertainment via TV, video and now t'internet, some of them have lost track of how live entertainment works: that you've got real people actually performing in the room, to a real audience. And that if you talk, it can really be heard by the performers and the audience, and is distracting and ill-mannered.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:47 PM

Your making it sound as if I'm living a bit in the past there, John!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:50 PM

Harmonium Hero

And I don't know who Snail was referring to in his last post, but I, for one, am not blaming any particular generation. My earlier contention was that there has been a general decline in standards of behaviour in (English) society.

Don't take me too seriously John, it's just that building a case about the general decline of society from a few cases of bad behaviour, which several on this thread have done, has probably been going on since our ancestors were roaming the plains of East Africa 200,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:04 PM

I agree John,it is also what I would expect.Also if a person chose to get up on stage with amplification or not there was never any noise for either.If you went for a drink you would wait outside the room quietly until the performance was over or the end of a tune or song and then go in.I can remember a dozen or so people waiting outside the closed door for this moment.The person taking the money would supervise this and actually open the door at the correct time.There was never anyone crashing about with their guitar,jumping up in the middle of a song.If talking was done it was a quiet whisper.
I expect I am setting myself up for a bit of banter the next time I go to a folk club ,but even if this strikes home to a few noisy folkies out there then this is worthwhile.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:16 PM

Jon: Living in the past? I thought that was me! I live in hopes that we might yet return to it - in a selective sort of way, of course. You know - keep the bits that worked, instead of chucking the whole thing away and replacing it with something worse, as we seem determined to do. Makes sense to me, anyway. John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:18 PM

138 posts and no blood spilled. Aren't we behaving in a polite and restarined manner?
JK

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:19 AM

You cannot however simultaneously expect the next floor singer to stay in his seat, be outside the door, have his instrument tuned, and be ready to go on.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: eddie1
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:50 AM

I always admired the late Iain McKintosh - not just for his singing and musicianship but for his ability to handle an unruly audience. Normally this was done by playing and singing ever quiter until the offender stopped by themselves or was "SHHHUUUSSSHED" into silence by the rest.
He did however tell the story against himself about the very vocal young lady who just would not shut up until he finally made some appropriate comment about her. During the interval he made a point of seeking her out and apologising for embarrassing her when he was on the stage. "Oh," she retorted, "Were you on the stage?"!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:31 AM

A similar story Eddie was the group who did their first half slot and was approached by a member of the audience."What type of music was that? " She asked. Thinking that she was genuinly interested he explained the history of the music etc
She replied
"Well it was bloody awful".
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: trevek
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:45 AM

I think it was in Shrewsbury where I once saw a guy start to sing and somebody dared to whisper to someone else. he stopped and asked what the conversation was about and then refused to sing if people were going to talk.

Considering it was impossible to hear them I did think this was a bit much on his part. If he'd kept his eyes shut and his finger in his ear he'd have never noticed.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,jazzy
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:48 PM

Another thing I've noticed at some open mic nights I've attended is the people who turn up, and then promptly leave as soon as they've sung their song/played their tune.

Now I'm sure in some cases there are mitigating circumstances for this - they have a babysitter to get back for, an early start the next day at work, a sudden attack of performance induced incontinence - but generally speaking, my view would be that if you want to get up and play and expect people to listen to you, the least you could do is extend that courtesy to the other musicians, if only for a little while?

There's a wonderful little song called "Thou Shalt Always Kill" by DJ Dans Le Sac and poet Scroobius Pip which has a great line about just such a practice (it's a little blue so I won't repeat it here, but feel free to google for the lyrics). The song itself won't be to everyone's taste as it's an electronic beat with spoken word over the top, but there's some lovely commentary on the contemporary music scene and life in general (I've included a brief extract for your reading pleasure below):

"Thou shalt not steal if there is direct victim.
Thou shalt not worship pop idols or follow lost prophets.
Thou shalt not take the names of Johnny Cash, Joe Strummer, Johnny Hartman, Desmond Decker, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix or Syd Barrett in vain.
Thou shalt not think any male over the age of 30 that plays with a child that is not their own is a paedophile - Some people are just nice. "

Some interesting discuession in this thread, just wanted to add my 2p!

Chris

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:32 AM

It may be Chris that they got so annoyed with the attitude of a few other performers and a noisy audience that they realised that the club was not for them.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,jazzy
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:57 AM

Hi Al - sorry, please don't take my post to be a direct dig at yourself (or anyone else) personally, it's just a general observation I've made from attending a variety of open mics.

Re. Our club in particular: Some of our regulars are a rowdy bunch - but rest assured they do appreciate everything that performers do, else I'm sure they wouldn't applaud with such vigour or continue to turn up every week!

I do take your point that one or two of them need a 'nudge' now and again to remind them that it's very distracting when they tune guitars/chat/rustle crisp packets while people are performing (particularly when it's an individual playing - obviously if there's a group of people playing the noise tolerance is sometimes a little higher!).

I hope it hasn't put you off the F&H permanently, and hope to see you back some point soon. Tonight, rather than the open-mic "Everyone take a turn while everyone else listens" format, we've got a singaround hosted by Tone Deaf Leopard, which should provide some good opportunities for play/sing-alongs!

Cheers

Chris

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:10 AM

I don't think I've ever noticed a habit of leaving after doing their spot. Most people, in places I've been tend to stay to the end. I have in the past witnessed related issues though.

Some seem to like to arrive in time for their (perhaps first) spot. Maybe you find there are never many floor singers around when the club stars at 8:30 as they can't make that time. After discussion with all, you decide to start at 9:00pm. The people who couldn't make 8:30 then can't make 9:00.

You may find those who have been away for a few weeks have not realised it's a guest night the time they all happen to by co-incidence turn up on the same night armed with guitars expecting a spot. (And yes you may also observe that some of these are the ones who had ceased to be able to make the later start time...)

Maybe it's just me, but while there may in my experience be pretty good manners overall, I'm not sure I've always witnessed much in the way of interest in trying to support a night and pulling together for the benifit of all.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:52 AM

Then theres pensioners day at B and Q.

The scraps at the checkout between all these old farts who won't wait for each other to be served is far more angry and argumentative than any folk clubs.

By and large, us musicians are not very rude. At least, not to each others faces.

I think theres two aspects really. Namely what you're trying to do and what your background is.

I really admire Noel Murphy. I saw him play one of the best folk club gigs I have ever seen in my life to a tiny audience. the passion to communicate and perform were quite undiminished by the tiny audience - one of which was dim sixteen year old kid (namely me) And may be five other people.

Although I'd seen him other times in between - I saw him about twelve years later as my pro career was taking off. he was doing the guest spot at The Boggery in Solihull, and he was just about getting by. (I wasn't even doing that.) And I know that Les Ward booked him after that - so Les must have been quite pleased - but the noisy audience weren't his cup of tea, and they weren't getting the best from him.


Anyway fast forward a few years and i saw his name in the Irish Times writing an article for that prominent organ. By then there was an Irish theme pb on every street corner and I assumed that he was making a fortune - like every other Irish singer, who had the stomach for that kind of thing.

I wrote him and got this charming letter back. he seemed enchanted that he occupied such a warm place in one of his fan's memories. he said alas no - he found he couldn't work in the noisy audiences of the theme pub. And to be honest I thought that was damnanbly sad. for him and the audiences.

Similarly I started a folk club in a mining village and got Derek Brimstone play a guest spot. the local folk were noisy and ignorant. And it was a shit experience for Derek. i folded the club not long after - I didn't want to run anywhere where Derek couldn't play.

my wife said afterwards, you know if you or Bob Stokes (the Dublin Busker) had been doing that gig - you would simply have brushed that sort of stuff away. cos you both know about noisy audiences and how to work them.

In a way the folk clubs had made Noel and Derek kind of dependent on that very attentive audience.

And I think similarly when people are asking for special consideration for unaccompanied singing and monologues - these things must have worked in noisy music halls and alehouses.

Don't get me wrong - the whole business of performance - like that of teaching, presupposes some basic act and spirit of cooperation. But ask any teacher - no class is a pushover. You must labour mightily to impress your personality as a performer or teacher, sometimes against the odds.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:59 AM

Does Amplification create the talking and the lack of manners by the audience?


chicken &/or egg?

I think both concepts apply but not necessarilly at the same time.

The fact that the world is getting noisier makes more noise more acceptable in some ears and necessary in others'. And that leads to the rudeness seen on Mudcat threads. Though the rudeboys seem a bit quiet of late. Or using many Guest aliases.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:10 AM

Re leaving after your set, my rock band had a particular case of that the other day. We ended up closing the night after the headline band's drummer broke his arm, and three other bands were drafted in to play before us. Trouble is that two of the bands were all under-18s, so they and their parents stayed until about 10pm and then left before we started, which didn't leave a whole lot of audience behind for us. :-/

I think it's less common in singarounds or open-mics, because people have usually come for the entire evening. Still happens, but less often. Sometimes people will stay outside the main "circle" (or however the place is arranged) and chat at the bar, then come in for their go, then head back to the bar again. Doesn't always mean they're not listening.

Chris, that poem/beat thing is fun - thanks for the reference. (Vid and music are on Youtube, for anyone who wants to look/listen.)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:29 AM

Chris I made a point of not mentioning the places where I attended,but now you have I must say that my annoyance was not anything to do with my performance on stage, but more directed to the poor chap who was on before me.Any Folk Club would have loved the spot he did,he sang well he was funny, but most missed his jokes.He struggled to be heard and was upset when he got back to his seat.I can look after myself ,but I would not be surprised if that artist ever performed again.
I had no problems with yourself as I have said ,you played and sang excellently,you were polite and enthusiastic and I applaud you for hosting your club.My early leaving was not due to you or your members I suddenly realised I promised to see someone at another place.
I will attend again with your permission.
Al