BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews

Subject: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:13 PM

Obama's got my vote. Everything he's says about Zionism, the need for a Palestinian state, the relationship of America and Israel, etc. is right on the money.

An interview with Barack Obama from Atlantic.com about Zionism.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:52 PM

Interesting article; thanks.

Nice pseudonym, by the way, and welcome to Mudcat.

I see that this is your first day, and your first six postings are all about Israel. All well and good, but I hope in the near future you'll share some of your ideas about music, too!

;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:57 PM

Maybe Obama, being a politician, noticed the name of the guy doing the interview was Goldberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:57 PM

"Right on the money" until Fantz-the-Proclaimer (FtP) shows up and declares it all wrong... lol...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:58 PM

"Maybe Obama, being a politician, noticed the name of the guy doing the interview was Goldberg."

Thought you had more class than that, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:13 PM

I think Obama realized that not everyone who would read Mr. Goldberg's interview would necessarily have a Jewish name.

I'm Irish-Catholic by ethnicity but was still favorably impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:26 PM

"Maybe Obama, being a politician, noticed the name of the guy doing the interview was Goldberg."

Your comment is offensive.

BTW, the interview with Obama was for Atlantic, hardly a Jewish publication, even if they do have Jews working there.

Of course, jumping to conclusions about someone's race, religion or ethnicity based solely on their name is stereotypically racist behavior. For example, I've known people named "Shapiro" who were not Jewish and people named "MacDonald" who were.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"Thought you had more class than that, Rig."


                           No

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:40 PM

I'll know better for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:49 PM

"I see that this is your first day, and your first six postings are all about Israel. All well and good, but I hope in the near future you'll share some of your ideas about music, too!"

I've been lurking at Mudcat for a long time and felt compelled to jump in because of the perceived anti-Semitism in the bash-Israel thread. Not that I've started posting, I'm sure I'll open my mouth in music threads when I've got something to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:52 PM

So how many of these threads are going to get posted on this topic?
We now have two threads related to Israel and the Middle East closed because of personal attacks or glib comments. I got a little hot headed a week or so ago about something-I took a break. I would suggest all of you on this thread and the other threads to take Joe's advice and step back. Go up to the music threads, start a thread on something else, or log off for today! Better yet, have a pint, or a snifter of something else, Cheers, irishenglish(robert)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:56 PM

Excuse me. That is not so. ONE of the threads was closed because of people getting at each other. The one I started was closed as a preventative measure by Joe. Read what he wrote at the bottom of the thread. Problem here, very often, is people getting their facts straight, something you just demonstrated. Have a good day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:57 PM

PS I become unruly when I drink. That's why I don't and haven't for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:58 PM

"Your comment is offensive."


                     Well, it certainly wasn't meant to be offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:23 PM

irishenglish, I owe you an apology. I am sorry for my remark. It was uncalled for. After re-reading what you wrote I realize I was wrong to react in that manner, especially when what you wrote is so darned right. To compound my screw up, I think back to so many of your posts which have always been witty, insightful and considerate of others. I should have known better. Please excuse me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:31 PM

Peace, no worries, I just wanted to make sure we were cool! Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:41 PM

"So how many of these threads are going to get posted on this topic?"

So far as I know, this is the first thread about what Barack Obama has to say about one of the most important issues of our time. Obama may well be, will hopefully be, the next preident. So what he has to say is important.

It has nothing to do with the "Israel's Next War" thread. It seems to me that thread was nothing but an attempt to foster hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:22 PM

The linked article is clear, and Obama speaks rationally and reasonably. It's one of the reasons I like him. He doesn't flinch from saying what he sees, but he doesn't "act out" his point of view either.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It wasn't hate mongering, Bruce. He posted a link to a PBS documentary that you just happen to not like. And while doing so he criticized the more fundamentalist factions of his own religion just as much as he did the more extremist factions of the Jewish religion. When you spread lies like those, it is you who are spreading hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:26 PM

The fact that the person carrying out the interview was called Goldberg, or may have been Jewish is of course irrelevant - interviews are public property, and politicians know trying to tailor your policies to the personal preferences of the interviewer is pointless.

Inevitably anyone running for President has to deal with questions about Israel in the recognition that there are a lot of votes to be lost by failing to come across as strongly pro-Israel or even as showing any overt sympathy towards the situation of the Palestinians. After all, even aside from people with other reasons for feeling solidarity with Israel, America shares with Israel the situation of being a country built by settlers replacing and displacing the people who lived there before them.

There is an inconsistency between talking about the necessitty for America to be willing to talk with people seen as enemies, when it comes to Iran and others - but so far as Hamas is concerened "we should not be dealing with them until they recognize Israel, renounce terrorism, and abide by previous agreements". (There'd still be a war in Northern Ireland if the British had stuck to that approach.) And of course there are his comments on the last war against Lebanon in terms of it being defensive and justified, and on the illegal settlements - "Settlements at this juncture are not helpful."

Nothing to be surprised in this. He's an American politcian, and he operates within the constraints of American politics, and probably sincerely enough means what he says. The hope has to be that, in office (if he makes it), in the same way and probably to much the same extent as either of his electoral rivals would, he'll be ready to use his position to try to get some kind of movement away from the present nightmare that overshadows the Holy Land.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 13 May 08 - 07:02 PM

Exactly---irrelevent. Just like whether or not Sol is or is not a Rabbi on the other thread.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:02 PM

Ok, so after a brief detour (!), good article. What impressed me is that as he alluded to in the article, Obama has clearly thought about this before. I think a lot of time we tend to think of politicians as being given buzzword info from their advisors on a given topic in order to cover all bases (like if a debate is happening in Milwaukee, Obama or Clinton's advisors will give them a issue very specific to the Milwaukee area, so all the people can say, "Oh, they know all about our situation up here, they will get my vote".). What is clear is that Obama has questioned, and debated this,and as Amos said-he speaks rationally and reasonably.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:20 PM

"Exactly---irrelevent. Just like whether or not Sol is or is not a Rabbi on the other thread."

(I guess I'd have to say I agree with that.)

(Sorry for the thread drift.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:38 PM

If you have any questions about Sol's user name, please discuss it with him privately.
This thread is about Barack Obama, Jews, and so-called "Zionism."
Is that clear, Heric?
Thank you.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:54 PM

Agreed! I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I've already said thanks to Joe Offer in a personal message. I'll do it here publicly. I hope the discussion of Barack Obama's position can continue without personal attacks.

Given his views, I think Obama may be the best hope, for the Israelis and for the Palestinians, for leading the way to peace and prosperity for both sides. If he's elected, he'll need to engage the issue right from the start of his presidency and not do too little too late like the lamentable Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:22 PM

If Barak Obama really wanted to court the Jewish vote successfully he would come out strongly in support of releasing Jonathan Pollard on strictly humanitarian grounds. This man has already paid for his crime ten times over and has spent more time behind bars that other people who have spied for the Soviet Union and other powers who were hostile to the United States.

Clinton will not free him and neither will McCain upon advice of his potential running mate, Lieberman. There is nothing to be gained by keeping this man locked up for life in solitary confinement. He is no longer a threat to American interests.

                                                         SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:30 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

I don't think Jonathan Pollard is an issue for too many people in the Jewish community. He's more of an embarrassment than anything else. Not even the Israeli governmnet has lobbied on his behalf.

If we presume Obama will be the Democratic candidadte, that McCain will be the Republican candidate and that they both will do the same thing about Pollard (i.e. nithing), then there is probably not one voter in the entire country who will decide how to cast his/her ballot based on the Pollard (non)issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:40 PM

Frankly, I think the US would be better served if it would distance itself from Israel a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:50 PM

Well, now that the dst has cleared, I tookthe time to read the Obama interview in theatlantic.com. Seems to me, Obama thinks almost exactly what I think about the issue of Israel. I, too was shaped by the writings of Leon Uris and Philip Roth and liberal theologians, and I have a profound respect for the ideals of Zionism and a homeland for Jews who have faced more than two millenia of pogroms and ghettos and "final solutions." I'm glad that Obama used "Zionism" in its original, idealistic meaning, and did not sell out to the propagandists who have tried to redefine the word as some sort of oppressive Jewish imperialism.

We had a Jewish Israeli tour guide when I went to Israel on a Catholic pilgrimage in 1999, but one of my friends on the trip is married to a Palestinian from East Jerusalem - so we got both perspectives. Our tour guide was very cultured and intelligent and gentle, but I was distressed to hear her refer to Palestinians as if they were welfare cheaters, scummy people who wanted something for nothing. We met a number of hard-working, peaceable Palestinians who didn't fit our tour guide's description at all - and we didn't meet any Palestinians who DID fit her perspective. We also met Israeli citizen Arabs and Jews who were almost totally apolitical, just interested in doing their jobs and raising their families and enjoying life. There ARE Arabs who seem to be quite content to live in Israel as Israeli citizens. It seems a shame that Palestinians and Jews cannot peacefully exist in one, united country - but if the residents of the "occupied territories" were given full citizenship, the Jews would once again be a minority and their existence would once again be threatened.

There are no easy answers to the question of Israel, and I'm very glad that Barack Obama recognizes this and seems to have a balanced view of all sides of the issue. I still haven't dropped my allegiance to Hillary, but I have to say that this interview gave me a very favorable impression of Barack Obama.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:51 PM

In 1972, Republican president Richard Nixon got about 40% of the Jewish vote. I believe that is the best they have done.

In 2000 they got over 10% but not by much.

If Obama is the Democratic Party nominee, the Republicans will get the majority of Jewish voters for the first time ever, and some of them will be very liberal people.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:58 PM

I disagree with some of what Obama is saying in that link. This is one of the reasons I had initially decided to not vote for him. But I have more recently come to think that of the three candidates, he is the least likely to practice racism towards Palestinians.

However, I disagree with what he has said about Jimmy Carter's characterization of the situation in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem as apartheid. I think what Jimmy Carter said is right on the money, and I think that if Obama were to look deeply within himself, he would see this also, and perhaps already does, but is afraid to say.

I think the bigger question is whether or not Obama could get elected if he didn't didn't say what is expected of political candidates in this regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:00 PM

Speeches by Obama or any of the candidates will do little to ameliorate conditions in Palestine. There is little chance of change in direction in the next four years.

Can Israel be persuaded to remove illegal settlements from the west bank?
Will refugees ever be compensated for lands taken from them?
Will the refugees crammed into camps ever be able to live a life without handouts from the UN and help organizations?

American intervention has contributed to the problems, which, given the attitude of the West towards Muslim culture and aspirations, will not be solved by this or the next generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:05 PM

Polling data shows the great majority of Jews will vote for Obama over MacCain.

POLL: OBAMA LEADS MCCAIN AMONG JEWISH VOTERS

A new Gallup poll shows Jewish voters prefer Senator Obama to Senator McCain in the presidential race, 61% to 32%. Senator Clinton did only a bit better than her colleague from Illinois, leading Mr. McCain, 66% to 27%. The results suggested news coverage about Mr. Obama's ex-pastor, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright Jr., who has been critical of Israel and friendly toward Louis Farrakhan, took little toll on Mr. Obama's standing with Jews. The poll was based on Jewish voters who took part in Gallup tracking surveys in the month of April.

Taken from this coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:09 PM

Carol,
       Rule number one for any politician "get elected and say anything you have to to achieve that goal". It is the American way
whether we like it or not.

However, even after you get elected, all politics is based on give and take as well as compromise in order to realize your agenda.

Case in point" JFK, as popular as he was could not get his programs through congress. It took his assasination plus the ascendancy of LBJ to the presidency that enabled the Great Society legislation to finally pass congress.

Obama has some great ideas. But are the folks who have the seniority in congress ready to go along with him? It will be no easy task.
                                                       SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:17 PM

GOE,
    I wonder how many Orthodox Jews were in that poll.

In the Orthodox community it is McCain 100% and Obama zero.

I live in this community and I am an itegral part of it.

I am 65 year old and have never in all my life seen my community so unified against a candidate like they are against Obama.

It is not that they love McCain but they fear Obama.

                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:32 PM

I don't disagree with that, Sol. However, I think that the internet may change things a bit in that regard. For instance, I think that Obama's ability to raise money in small amounts from millions of voters via the internet could possibly help to break the hold that the pro-apartheid lobby has on the politicians in this country. It is certainly my hope that this will be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:34 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

Orthodox Jews are but a minority among all American Jews. I would bet they are a big part of the 32% that would vote for McCain over Obama.

I would also bet that that there are not enough Orthodox Jews in any particular state, even New York, to throw that state to McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:42 PM

GOE,
      Orthodox Jews , especially Hasidics tend to vote as a bloc (which ever way the Grand Rabbi tells them to).

Remember the case of Hillary with the village of New Square in the senatorial campaign, where her opponent Rick Lazio, got only 3 votes to Hillary's 2,000.

In a close election the bloc vote can decide where all of New Yor's delegates go.
                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:44 PM

It won't be that close in New York.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:45 PM

Interestingly, due to the vagaries of a multi-party parliamentary system, I understand there ARE enough Orthodox Jews in New York to control the election results in Israel. For decades, the ultra-Orthodox (both inside and outside Israel) have stymied Israeli attempts to make peace with the Palestinians. I can't say that Palistinian intransigence has helped things, though.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:48 PM

"Orthodox Jews , especially Hasidics tend to vote as a bloc (which ever way the Grand Rabbi tells them to)."


                   That's kind of the way born-again-Christians vote too. I think they would be better off to think for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:56 PM

Why in the world would Orthodox Jews 'fear' Obama? I have heard NOTHING that would suggest (to me, anyway) that Obama would be anything but fair & reasonable towards all people.

...oh, maybe that's the problem. Special interest groups are not always interested in 'fair & reasonable' attitudes...they prefer attitudes which favor their own concerns.
It is the same whether we are talking about gun owners, oil companies, illegal immigrants, ...or religious groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:03 PM

BillD, if I understand the logic correctly, Rev. Wright at one point (or maybe several points) made one of his mild and mellow comments about Israel. Since Israel = Jews and Wright = Obama, ergo it was Obama making anti-Semitic comments. The logical disconnects are too numerous to mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:10 PM

Makes sense to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:21 PM

Oh...I see...logic! (I don't suppose it would help for me to visit the Grand Rabbi and explain the error in his logic about "Israel = Jews and Wright = Obama".

I will say....it scares me MUCH more to know there are groups voting as a bloc because of the ideas of one man, than it does to know that one candidate once was on good terms with a guy they don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:43 PM

"Interestingly, due to the vagaries of a multi-party parliamentary system, I understand there ARE enough Orthodox Jews in New York to control the election results in Israel."

That's not correct. Although all Jews have the right to Israeli citizenship should we decide to live there, we in the Diaspora who have not moved there and become citizens do not have the right to vote in Israeli elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:48 PM

"Orthodox Jews , especially Hasidics tend to vote as a bloc (which ever way the Grand Rabbi tells them to)."

Hasidics, maybe. Most modern Orthodox Jews are not puppets. The polls indicate that most will vote for Obama.

Frankly, fundamentalist Jews have more in common with fundamentalists of other faiths than they do with most mainstream Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:53 PM

Ain't THAT the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:41 PM

It seems a shame that Palestinians and Jews cannot peacefully exist in one, united country - but if the residents of the "occupied territories" were given full citizenship, the Jews would once again be a minority and their existence would once again be threatened.

I'd agree with the first part of that, and it would be consisternt with the apirations of one strand of historical Zionism, which did not see the establishment of a Jewish homeland where Jews woudl ahve a right to live would mean a country in which the existing inhabitants were reduced to a minority.

I don't think it can be assumed that a shared Jewish/Palestinian homeland would mean a less secure future for its Jewish population than one in which every other consideration is subordinated to a determination to maintain a permanent Jewish majority.

At present the Jewish population of Israel is about 5,499,000. The total number of Palestinians living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is about 5,200,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:43 PM

I can't recall a single post where Kevin was NOT a voice of reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 08 - 09:15 PM

It seems a shame that Palestinians and Jews cannot peacefully exist in one, united country

They can peacefully exist in one united country. While it's not yet a country, there are non-Jewish Palestinians and non-Palestinian Jews living together in Palestinian villages in the West Bank. These are not the same Jews as the ones who are living in the apartheid settlements. These are Jews living in together with the Palestinians in Palestinian villages as equals, and not as occupiers. What the Palestinians are not able to live with is apartheid and military occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:15 PM

dear Phantasm de Coulomb,

You still seem to believe that published polls are an accurate reflection of public opinion. That has not been true in the US since 1992 when Bill Clinton started using them to promote opinion. See the definition of "push poll". Most of the outfits doing "polling" try out questions until they gets ones that produce their desired results then go with those questions. If you want to put money on the Obama-McCain race for 4 Nov 2008, let me know by PM. I will go with any amount you want to bet. McCain will get over 50% of the Jewish vote and I will put my money right there.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:28 PM

How is the "Jewish vote" determined in the US since polls are not an accurate reflection of public opinion, do you state your religion on the ballot when you vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:35 AM

"Will refugees ever be compensated for lands taken from them?"

OK, let us look at the facts.

1. How many Palestinian Moslems left what became Israel, that would have lost land and possesions?

The best number I have found is 648,000. So, lets say 650,000.

2. How many Palestinian Moslems remained in that state, and are presently Israeli citizens ( with full voting priviledges)?

I will leave that to someone else to get- ( See pt. 4)

3. How many Jews were driven out of Arab nations and lost land and possesions?

The best number I can find is 820,000, some 560,000 of which settled in Israel.

4. How many Jews remained in the Arab nations, as full citizens?

Number varies form a few thousand to ZERO ( Jews prohibited in Saudi Arabia and Jordan)


Looking at the entire history of Palestine ( From it's creation as a Mandate in 1921, out of a part of the Ottoman Empire) my question is

What amout of the Mandate Palestine Territory is required to satisfy the Moslem population?

In the first census, Jews were 11%. By 1938, in spite of the illegal limits imposed by Britain, they were 33% of the Population of Mandate Palestine.

In 1923, the formation of the Palestinan Homeland ( from what was declared by the League of Nations to be the Jewish Homeland) gave 76% of the Mandate Palestine territory to the Moslems- with NO jewish immigration allowed. (NO limits on Moslem immigration to the remainder of the Mandate were imposed- contrawise, Britain illegally limited the immigrtation of Jews just at the time that Europs was actively trying to deport Jews.)

The 1948 plan, accepted by the Jews and REJECTED by the Arab League, gave a further majority of the territory to the Moslems. They chose to declare war rather than accept that division.

From Wiki-
"Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the State of Israel retained nearly all the territory that would have been assigned to it in the 1947 UN Partition Plan, as well as conquered half of the land intended to become the Arab state of Palestine and a portion of the territory intended for international administration around Jerusalem. The remaining half of the land that had been intended to become Palestine along the West Bank of the Jordan River was annexed by Jordan, as was most of the Jerusalem enclave; the Gaza Strip along the Mediterranean coast, also included in the Arab state territory, was captured by Egypt. "

Note that as of 1948, MOSLEMS controlled the entire area now "demanded" as a Palestinian state- YET they did NOT allow the formation of that state.

The peace treaty between Jordan and Israel recognizes the Jordan River as the border between the two states ( Israel and Jordan)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:39 AM

In the mid twentieth century people started to seriously take on the problem of racism. A lot of racism has gone away since then.
               Now it is time to take on religion. Given enough time, we can make religion go away too.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 May 08 - 09:13 AM

MOSLEMS controlled the entire area now "demanded" as a Palestinian state- YET they did NOT allow the formation of that state.

You're making the assumption that Moslem == Palestinian. There never was much pan-Moslem solidarity, or even pan-Arab, witness the short life of the United Arab Republic. The fact that Jordan, as well as Israel, annexed Palestinian territory is irrelevant. That's like arguing that it was OK for Russia to invade Poland, because Germany had done so. In any case, they gave it up after they had lost it...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 09:19 AM

CarolC,

Jews and Moslems can peacefully exist in one united country. While Israel has been a country, there are non-Jewish Israelis and Jews living together in Jewish villages in the entire state of Israel. These are not the same Moslims as the ones who are actively at war against Israel. These are Moslims living in together with the Israeli Jews in Isralei villages as equals, and not as terrorists. What the Israelis as a whole are not able to live with is violence and unending war against their civilian population.

Now, about Jordan, Saud Arabia, Yeman...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 09:24 AM

Fine. Let us say then Palestinian.

Jordan IS the Palestinian Homeland, 76% of the Mandate Palestine territory.


http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 08 - 09:39 AM

Interesting and thoughtful article. Thanks for posting it.

I do have more respect for polling results than individual opinion, even persistent individual opinion.

With regard to whether Hasidic Jews play a pivotal role in our national elections, that strikes me (as a secular Jewish person) as undesirable as well as unlikely. Feel free to practice your religion in this country, but please don't try to dictate how the rest of us should lead our lives. And if your Grand Rabbi's criticism of a political candidate appears to be baseless (if not racist or bigoted), don't be surprised if his statements are challenged.

End of sermon!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 08 - 09:57 AM

Fearing Obama because one is Hasidic strikes me as sensible as being afraid of the local dogcatcher because one is a parakeet. It depends on a ridiculous conflation of generalities, dogma and false assumptions.

If I wanted to do the Hasidic community a favor, Reb, I would promote widely the following brief excerpt from Franklin Roosevelt:

"Let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance."

Barack Obama is a reasoning and compassionate human being, Reb.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:42 AM

Jordan IS the Palestinian Homeland, 76% of the Mandate Palestine territory.

Not a lot of comfort to those Palestinians who live(d) in the 24%...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:53 AM

Not a lot of comfort to the greater number of Jews driven out of Arab nations, who were never allowed to settle in the "Arab" 76%.

Or the ones gassed in WW II because the British would not allow the immigration specified by the League of Nations of Jews into Mandate Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:35 PM

"While it's not yet a country, there are non-Jewish Palestinians and non-Palestinian Jews living together in Palestinian villages in the West Bank."

Yes, there must be a dozen or more Jews living in Palestinian villages in the West Bank.

On the other hand, there are about 1.5 million Arabs, most of them Moslems, living among the Jews in Israel proper. They vote in Israeli election, are represented in the Knesset and the Cabinet, on the Israeli Supreme Court and in the diplomatic corps. Although Israeli Arabs are exempt from compulsory military service, there are many who volunteer.

Arabic is a fully recognized official language in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:40 PM

Yes, there must be a dozen or more Jews living in Palestinian villages in the West Bank.

Almost half a million in illegal (in international law) settlements though.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:48 PM

Yes, I agree with you about the settlements. They are the biggest mistake in Israeli history and should be abandoned.

The Israelis, of course, have a history of abandoning settlements in the interest of peace. They did it in the Sinai when they made peace with Egypt and they did it unilaterally in 2005 in Gaza in an attempt to move the peace process along.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:49 PM

Just in from JTA:

Obama, Dems slam Bush on Knesset speech

Barack Obama said President Bush's remarks to the Knesset about appeasing terrorists were a smear against Obama's candidacy.

"Some seem to believe we should negotiate with terrorists and radicals, as if some ingenious argument will persuade them they have been wrong all along," Bush said in remarks delivered Thursday to mark Irsael's 60th anniversary. "We have heard this foolish delusion before. As Nazi tanks crossed into Poland in 1939, an American senator declared, 'Lord, if only I could have talked to Hitler, all of this might have been avoided.'

"We have an obligation to call this what it is -- the false comfort of appeasement, which has been repeatedly discredited by history."

Obama, an Illinois U.S. senator and the front-runner in the race to be the Democratic presidential candidate in November, has said that as president he would meet with leaders of pariah states, but has rejected meeting with terrorist groups. Republicans, however, have characterized Obama's stance as including outreach to terrorists, and the candidate took Bush's remarks as a swipe at him.

"It is sad that President Bush would use a speech to the Knesset on the 60th anniversary of Israel's independence to launch a false political attack," Obama said in a statement. "Instead of tough talk and no action, we need to do what Kennedy, Nixon and Reagan did and use all elements of American power -- including tough, principled and direct diplomacy -- to pressure countries like Iran and Syria.

"George Bush knows that I have never supported engagement with terrorists, and the president's extraordinary politicization of foreign policy and the politics of fear do nothing to secure the American people or our stalwart ally Israel."

A White House spokeswoman denied that Obama was the target. However, MSNBC quoted a senior administration official as saying the remarks would apply to Obama as well as to former President Jimmy Carter, who recently met with Hamas officials. Obama criticized Carter for that meeting.

The Democratic National Committee called on U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), the presumptive Republican Party nominee, to repudiate Bush's comments.

"Bush's outrageous comments are an embarrassment to our country, not based in fact and bring us no closer to our goal of ending terrorist attacks against Israel and bringing peace to the region," said DNC chairman Howard Dean.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:16 PM

Bruce, your post in response to mine is irrelevant to the point I was making. I was showing Joe that what he thinks is impossible, is, in fact, possible.

However, it was actions by the Israeli leadership that caused the Jews to leave the other countries in the region. Had it not been for those actions, those Jews would very likely still be in those places. Remember, it didn't serve the purposes of the Israeli leadership for Jews to remain in their countries of origin. They needed people to help them build their new country.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:18 PM

I think it is probably good for Obama that Bush is taking up hollow postures against him. He (Bush) is rather well known for making a dog's breakfast out of everything he touches -- it's called the "Junior Touch". If I were running for office I'd be glad to have the a-holes stand up and oppose me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:19 PM

However, it was actions by the Arab leadership that caused the Palestinians to leave their homes. Witness the greater number that DID accept Israel's invitation to stay, and who now make up 15-20% of Israel's population.


How many Jews are there in Jordan, the ARAB palestinian homeland???


( Hint: NONE legally)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:21 PM

Had it not been for those actions, those Palestinians would very likely still be in those places. Remember, it didn't serve the purposes of the Arab leadership for Palestinians to remain in their country of origin. They needed people to help them destroy the Jews ( as stated by the Arab League)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:28 PM

On the other hand, there are about 1.5 million Arabs, most of them Moslems, living among the Jews in Israel proper. They vote in Israeli election, are represented in the Knesset and the Cabinet, on the Israeli Supreme Court and in the diplomatic corps. Although Israeli Arabs are exempt from compulsory military service, there are many who volunteer.

"Arabs" do have some rights in Israel, unlike the Palestinians who have no rights whatever. However, they do not enjoy equal rights. There are many discriminatory laws on the books, and there is also quite a lot of discrimination in how the laws that are supposed to be equal are applied. Ethnic cleansing of "Arabs" is still ongoing in Israel as well as the West Bank.


Jordan IS the Palestinian Homeland, 76% of the Mandate Palestine territory.

Jordan was given to the Hashemites, who are of Saudi Arabian origin, not the Palestinians. The area that is now the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, as well as about 20 or 30 percent of what is now Israel was given to the Palestinians to be their homeland.

However this "homeland" business is irrelevant to the fact that the indigenous "Arab" inhabitants were never supposed to be ethnically cleansed from their places of origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:35 PM

However, it was actions by the Arab leadership that caused the Palestinians to leave their homes.

This is not true. The Palestinians were driven from their homes through a process of ethnic cleansing by Jewish terrorists and paramilitaries that included outright massacres and terrorism. Hundreds of thousands had already been killed or driven from their homes in the several month period before Israel had declared its independence.

How many Jews are there in Jordan, the ARAB palestinian homeland???

There are Jews in Jordan. I don't know how many, but they are there. Using the word "Arab" in the way you do is profoundly racist. The way you use it would be like someone saying that if a Jew in Ireland is given a house, that would mean that the house of a Jew in Alaska should be taken away.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:36 PM

Nor were the Jews resident in the West bank suppposed to be removed, but they were dribven out from 1948 onward.

Please look at the 1921 history onward. ( Feel free to go earlier, to when NONE of the land was owned by the occupants, but by the Ottomans.)

In 1923, 76% of Mandate Palestine was given to the Arabs to be an Arab homeland, where Jews were forbidden to live.

This in opposition to the League Mandate.

The Arab Moslums who stayed in Israel got Israeli citizenship: The ones who left did not. The Jews driven out by Arab nations were never compensated: Why should the Arabs who left what became Israel have any more rights than the Arabs gave Jews???

Oh, that's right- Jews are not really human- they do not deserve to have a homeland like the 1921 treaty declared...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:40 PM

The Jews were driven from their homes through a process of ethnic cleansing by Arab police,terrorists and paramilitaries that included outright massacres and terrorism.





"There are Jews in Jordan. I don't know how many, but they are there"

Wrong. Your claim is false.

"Jordan has a law explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen.[7] and that "In Jordan, no Jew can be a citizen or own land.".[8] Jordan's laws against Jewish residence has been criticized by Benjamin Natanyahu.[9] However, a US Department of State International Religious Freedom Report 2006 on Jordan states that: "The Government recognizes Judaism as a religion; however there are reportedly no Jordanian citizens who are Jewish. The Government does not impose restrictions on Jews, and they are permitted to own property and conduct business in the country." .[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Jews

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:41 PM

In 1948, there were approximately 5,000 Jews in Lebanon, with communities in Beirut, and on villages near Mount Lebanon, Deir al Qamar, Barouk, and Hasbayah. While the French mandate saw a general improvement in conditions for Jews, the Vichy regime placed restrictions on them. The Jewish community actively supported Lebanese independence after World War II and had mixed attitudes toward Zionism.

After 1948, the number of Lebanese Jews quadrupled, from 5,000 to 20,000, mainly due to immigration from Syria and Iraq due to persecution. While Lebanese had more negative attitudes toward Jews after 1948, the situation was considerably better than in Syria and Iraq. by 1967, however, many Lebanese Jews had gradually emigrated to the United States, Canada, France, and Israel. The remaining Jewish community was particularly affected by the civil wars in Lebanon, especially as Syrian involvement became stronger. In 1971, Albert Elia, the 69-year-old Secretary-General of the Lebanese Jewish community was kidnapped in Beirut by Syrian agents and imprisoned under torture in Damascus along with Syrian Jews who had attempted to flee the country. A personal appeal by the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan to the late President Hafez al-Assad failed to secure Elia's release. By all accounts, there are fewer than 100 Jews left in Lebanon.[11]

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:42 PM

The Iraqi Jewish community, numbering 120,000 in 1948, left the country over the three year period of 1949-1952. Rising popular prejudice, antisemitic violence and official discrimination against them within the host community motivated the exodus, which was facilitated by Zionist initiatives, both from the new state and the local underground movement, for a policy of repatriation following the establishment of the state of Israel.[6] Today, less than 100 remain. Many Iraqi Jews moved to India, where they are known as Baghdadi Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:43 PM

In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. The Syrian government placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including on emigration. Over the next decades, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr, in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation. Following the Madrid Conference of 1991 the United States put pressure on the Syrian government to ease its restrictions on Jews, and on Passover in 1992, the government of Syria began granting exit visas to Jews on condition that they do not emigrate to Israel. At that time, the country had several thousand Jews; today, under a hundred remain. The rest of the Jewish community have emigrated, mostly to the United States and Israel. There is a large and vibrant Syrian Jewish community in South Brooklyn, New York

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:45 PM

Building Israel from the wasteland and the desert has been a risky, heartbreaking proposition from the beginning. Time and again, the desert was tamed and made into fertile, irrigated cropland, by the passion of Israelis for their buildinghomeland.

The region has also been a wasteland of hard emotional ridges and troughs, where hatred flies in the wind as readily as desert dust does.

The Israelis, as well as everyone else married to the region, need to learn the secrets of orrigating those emotions, and making them fertile again.

There is a path, and it must include a Palestinian state; that much I think is certain.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:46 PM

Egyptian Jews constitute perhaps the oldest Jewish community in the world. The Jewish population of Egypt is now somewhere from 100-1000 people, down from between 75,000 and 80,000 in 1948. They included some 5, 000 Karaite Jews at that date, who, along with the Rabbanite Jews, constituted the historic core of the community.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:54 PM

Clearly it would be right for all these people to have the right to return to their homelands.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:56 PM

interesting information about populations...


http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:57 PM

I'd be willing to bet that it wasn't actions on the part of the Palestinians that caused the Jews to leave the areas that are now the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem in 1948 and 1949. The people whose interests were served by ethnic cleansing were the Israeli leadership.

In 1923, 76% of Mandate Palestine was given to the Arabs to be an Arab homeland, where Jews were forbidden to live.

This is not true. Jews were never forbidden to live there. I've already shown you the documentation in support of this in another thread.

The Arab Moslums who stayed in Israel got Israeli citizenship: The ones who left did not. The Jews driven out by Arab nations were never compensated: Why should the Arabs who left what became Israel have any more rights than the Arabs gave Jews???

I realize that you originally were discussing compensation, but that wasn't the point that I came in to this part of the discussion to address. I am not advocating that anyone receive any compensation. I was just interested in correcting the falsifications of history that you were posting.

Oh, that's right- Jews are not really human- they do not deserve to have a homeland like the 1921 treaty declared...

The 1921 treaty declared that they should find a homeland within the are covered by the treaty, but that treaty, as well as clarifications of the treaty by Churchill and others also specified that "homeland within Palestine" only meant that Palestine would be their home, and it would be considered their place of origin. They were not permitted by the treaty to turn the area into a "Jewish State". In fact, they were expressly instructed to not do that.

Wrong. Your claim is false.

No, it's true. I got my information from the ambassador to the US from Jordan. The numbers are small, but they're there. They may not be citizens, but they nevertheless live in Jordan, and your question was not "how many Jordanian citizens are Jewish", but rather "
How many Jews are there in Jordan". The Jordanians have always been on very good terms with the Israeli leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:03 PM

"This is not true. Jews were never forbidden to live there. "

Prophet Mohammed's pronouncement that there can't be two religions on Arabian Peninsula is responsible for the fact that even today no Jew is allowed to enter Saudi Arabia and no Jew is allowed to live in Jordan.

Jordan has a law explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen.[7] and that "In Jordan, no Jew can be a citizen or own land.".[8] Jordan's laws against Jewish residence has been criticized by Benjamin Natanyahu.[9]

Although the White Paper stated that the Balfour Declaration could not be amended and that the Jews were in Palestine by right, it partitioned the area of the Mandate by excluding the area east of the Jordan River from Jewish settlement. That land, 76% of the original Palestine Mandate by area but mostly very sparsely populated desert, was renamed Transjordan and was given to the Hashemite Emir Abdullah from Mecca, son of King Hussein of Hejaz, who was soon forced from his kingdom by the ambitious Ibn Saud. This was a reward by the British for the Hashemite family's help in the fight against the Ottoman Empire. Today it is the Kingdom of Jordan ruled by Abdullah's great-grandson, Abdullah II. The majority of Jordanian citizens today are Palestinian refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:04 PM

Yes, there were Arab Muslims expelled from Israel, and there were killings done in the process. And there were Arab Jews expelled from the Muslim nations of the Middle East, and there were killings done in the process. There was also a significant number of murders of both Palestinian Jews and European immigrants in the years leading up to Israeli Independence. The Israeli government has at least been willing to discuss compensation for the land seized from Palestinian Muslims, although not to return any of the land. (Who actually "owned" the land is another, entirely separate, issue.) The Muslims nations have never been willing to discuss compensation for property confiscated from the Arab Jews. And yes, I am using "Arab Jew" on purpose, because one can no more differentiate between, for example, Iraqi Jews, Iraqi Muslims and Iraqi Christians than one can tell Croats, Serbs, Kosovars and Bosnians apart by sight.

Where are the Arab Jews now? Entirely assimilated into the nation of Israel. And where are the Palestinian Muslims? Those who left, voluntarily of not, are largely living in camps in their Muslim "host" countries, supported by international handouts. Who got the short end of the stick? Almost certainly the Palestinian Muslims. And ho stuck it to them? There are many candidates for that, but Israel is not very close to the head of the line.

The question is, what to do now, sixty years after? The elimination of Israel as a Jewish state is not on the table and never will be. There are 5.5 million Jews there who have very clear memories of what their lives were really like as a minority. Do I have an answer? When I get elected as god, I'll be sure to let you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:06 PM

The Iraqi Jewish community, numbering 120,000 in 1948, left the country over the three year period of 1949-1952.

Much of the violence that you are characterizing as "antiSemetic" was, in fact, terrorism committed by Israeli paramilitary and terrorist organizations. There was a concerted effort on the part of the Israeli leadership to terrorize the Jewish population of Iraq into leaving that country.

Yemen is an interesting story. The Jews there, who were not at all familiar with modern technology and had never even seen an airplane, were tricked into leaving by Israelis who showed up in airplanes with the biblical phrase "the wings of eagles", which the Yemenite Jews were persuaded was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, and they were removed from Yemen by the Israeli leadership.

Once the Yemenite Jews were in Israel, they were confined to camps where many died, and their children were declared dead, and stolen from them to be sold to people in the West. These children only discovered their own history when they were being enlisted in the military and were told that they had been declared dead when they were small.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:09 PM

There was also a significant number of murders of both Palestinian Jews and European immigrants in the years leading up to Israeli Independence.

There were also a lot of Jews who had been living for a long time in what is now Israel who were killed by Zionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:11 PM

Jordan has a law explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen.[7] and that "In Jordan, no Jew can be a citizen or own land.".[8] Jordan's laws against Jewish residence has been criticized by Benjamin Natanyahu.[9]

As I said before, there is a difference between being a citizen and living somewhere. There are Jews living in Jordan. They may not be citizens, but they live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:14 PM

uh, Carol.........."The Jordanians have always been on very good terms with the Israeli leadership."...........that's probably after forgetting the occasional war here and there...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:16 PM

Yte you criticise ISRAEL for supposed restrictions on Moslim citizenship????


You have demonstrated that you do not consider Jews to be as human as you consider Moslims to be.

Feel free to be critical of Israel for its failures- but do not think to point to lesser actions on the part of those you support as being sucesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:17 PM

Where are the Arab Jews now? Entirely assimilated into the nation of Israel. And where are the Palestinian Muslims? Those who left, voluntarily of not, are largely living in camps in their Muslim "host" countries, supported by international handouts. Who got the short end of the stick? Almost certainly the Palestinian Muslims. And ho stuck it to them? There are many candidates for that, but Israel is not very close to the head of the line.

Israel was entirely responsible. The countries to which the Arabs fled are very poor countries that are not able to support large influxes of people, and they also recognize that it is illegal under international law for Israel to not repatriate all of the refugees who left there during 1948 and 1949, and these countries know that they are not in any way obligated to absorb them into their populations.

Israel also has many internal refugees. Arabs who were driven from their homes and land during the ethnic cleansing, but who never left what is now Israel. These people have not been allowed to return to their homes, even though they never left the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:19 PM

It is illegal under international law for Arab nations to not repatriate all of the Jewish refugees who left there during 1948 and 1949.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:22 PM

"Israel was entirely responsible. The countries to which the Arabs fled are very poor countries that are not able to support large influxes of people,"


PLEASE. You claim that the Arab nations with HOW MUCH AREA and oil are incapable of dealing with 650,000 Palestinian refugess, and that Israel, with what area, should absorb 820,000 Jewish refugees AND all the Moslims who sided with the Arab League and fled instead of accepting citizenship???????

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:26 PM

Catspaw, Jordan has never waged war against Israel, except possibly in 1973, which was about taking back land that was taken from them in 1967. But during war of 1948, 1949, Jordan had an agreement with the leadership of Israel to not do any fighting in the areas that had been given to the Jews in the partition plan. And they didn't, except for a very small part of old Jerusalem. The 1948/49 war was a defensive war on the part of the Arabs, and almost all of the fighting took place on land that had been given to the Arabs, and that the Israelis were trying to take from them. This was not a war of Arab aggression, but a war of Israeli aggression.

The 1967 war was a war of Israeli aggression as well. Israel attacked its neighbors in that war, on manufactured pretexts (much as the US did in Iraq). That war was not defensive on Israel's part, but offensive, and for the purpose of taking land.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:30 PM


PLEASE. You claim that the Arab nations with HOW MUCH AREA and oil are incapable of dealing with 650,000 Palestinian refugess, and that Israel, with what area, should absorb 820,000 Jewish refugees AND all the Moslims who sided with the Arab League and fled instead of accepting citizenship???????

This is pretty laughable. Israel wasn't forced to absorb Jewish refugees. It did everything in its power, including committing acts of terrorism to force the Jews living in those other countries to leave. The Arabs who fled, what is now Israel, on the other hand, both Muslim as well as Christian Arabs, were driven out by the Israelis, and those who left were fleeing for their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:31 PM

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee collaborated with Nazi Germany during the Second World War. In 1940, he asked the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right, "to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy."[citation needed] He spent the second half of WWII in Germany making radio broadcasts exhorting Muslims to ally with the Nazis in war against their common enemies. In one of these broadcasts, he said, "Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."[67][68] In the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust, such statements by Arab leaders (along with the Mufti's violently anti-Semitic history) led to a widespread belief that the Israelis were facing a new "warrant for genocide."[citation needed]

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:32 PM

I s'pose, Spaw, that if you buy what she's sellin', I can also interest you in buying this bridge I have crossing between Brooklyn and Manhattan.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:32 PM

It is illegal under international law for Arab nations to not repatriate all of the Jewish refugees who left there during 1948 and 1949.

How many of those Jews are requesting repatriation in their home countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:32 PM

Right. Killing Jews is never as serious as deciding to run away after being promised your Jewish neighbor's land if you did ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:32 PM

There is plenty of documentation, Ghost of Electricity.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"How many of those Jews are requesting repatriation in their home countries? "

A LOT less than the number of Arab Moslims that STAYED in Israel and became citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:35 PM

Justice for Jewish refugees from Arab countries

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:36 PM

Non-revisionist history.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:36 PM

A LOT less than the number of Arab Moslims that STAYED in Israel and became citizens.

Yes, precisely. I don't think you can say that the other countries are violating any international laws for refusing to repatriate if nobody has requested repatriation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:38 PM

Are the Jews in that organization requesting repatriation, Ghost of Electricity, or are they requesting compensation?

On the contrary, peace, the history you posted is the revisionist one. And there is no shortage of documentation to prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Don't bother, Peace, It is not a war if only Jews are getting killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:41 PM

When one supplies a link, it is so that others can read the documentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:47 PM

Date: 15 May 08 - 02:36 PM

Non-revisionist history. (link to site)

****************************************************


From: CarolC - PM
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:38 PM

...
On the contrary, peace, the history you posted is the revisionist one. And there is no shortage of documentation to prove it.

********************************************************************



Two minutes is more than enough time to read a posting, rigorously evalute the truth and supporting documentation of a site and reply...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:50 PM

Just now saw this...


Yte you criticise ISRAEL for supposed restrictions on Moslim citizenship????

You have demonstrated that you do not consider Jews to be as human as you consider Moslims to be.

Why do you continually conflate being an Arab with being a Muslim? Is it because the reality of Christian Arabs in inconvenient for the promotion of hatred toward Arabs? I criticize Israel for ethnic cleansing and for aparthied. I think Jews should have citizenship to any country they want, however that was not the point that was being addressed. The point I was addressing was your false statement that there are no Jews living in Jordan.

Now, my own opinion is that when the Palestinians are granted the status of human being by the Israelis, that is when you will see Jews being given citizenship by Jordan. You may think it should be the other way around, but at least the Jews in Jordan are not living under apartheid and military occupation, and they do have rights as human beings. This is not the case for the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Two minutes is more than enough time to read a posting, rigorously evalute the truth and supporting documentation of a site and reply...

The title alone is enough to know that it is nothing but lies. I've seen it all many times before, and I've posted documentation proving it many times before as well.

Ghost of Electricity, there are reams of documentation throughout my posting history. It's all there for anyone to see. The people in this thread with whom I am debating (aside from you) have all seen it many times before.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:55 PM

I know a number of Christian Palestinians- And they left places like the Christian town of Ramallah when the MOSLIM Palestinians and the MOSLIM Arab League drove them out ( "LEAVE OR DIE" - I presume you will say that was voluntary, so they should not be allowed their property back.)

I have never met any Christian Palestinians that were driven out of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:56 PM

"The title alone is enough to know that it is nothing but lies"


Glad the pursuit of knowledge continues so untarnished...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:00 PM

I criticize the Arab nations for ethnic cleansing and for aparthied. I think Palestinian Moslims should have citizenship to any country they want, PROVIDED the become citizens. The ones who fled made a decision: Why should they be given citizenship after trying to kill ( continueing to this day) those that DID accept Israeli citizenship?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:06 PM

The fact that you have not met them doesn't mean they don't exist, beardedbruce. They fled during the Nakba, along with the Muslim Arabs. Some of them even ended up in the same refugee camps in the countries surrounding Israel that the Muslim Arabs ended up in. Many of them, however, having more resources than the Muslim Arabs, fled to Western countries. There are many Christian Arabs living in the US and other Western countries, who came here after fleeing the ethnic cleansing during 1948/49.

Don't bother, Peace, It is not a war if only Jews are getting killed.

I find this terribly ironic, considering that the leadership of what is now Israel was slaughtering and ethnically cleansing Arabs during the several months prior to Israel declaring its independence, and yet those leaders of what is now Israel are only willing to say that it was a war after independence was declared. But Israel was not being threatened in 1967, so there was no need for war except for the purpose of acquiring land, which many of the Israeli leadership were perfectly open about saying was the reason for going to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:12 PM

I'm not chiming in on this discussion, but I just had a good look at the site that Peace linked to, and which Carol dismisses. I would like to know what the problem with it is. I see academics, historians, even religous giving testimony to that website. What part of it is lies Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:14 PM

I criticize the Arab nations for ethnic cleansing and for aparthied. I think Palestinian Moslims should have citizenship to any country they want, PROVIDED the become citizens. The ones who fled made a decision: Why should they be given citizenship after trying to kill ( continueing to this day) those that DID accept Israeli citizenship?

The ones who fled had a choice. Flee or be killed. That is not a choice. The Jews who fled the other Arab nations were also probably fleeing for their lives, but in their case, it was Jewish terrorists who were doing the killing. The whole reason for everything that the Israeli leadership does is for the purpose of building their empire in the Middle East. They do this by expelling indigenous people from the lands they want to occupy, and coercing or tricking Jews into leaving their countries of origin in order to fill up their growing empire. And they will continue to do this for as long as the rest of the world allows them to do it. They have said themselves that the size and shape of Israel is the business of the Jewish people and nobody else.   Of course, while they presume to speak for "the Jewish people", they do not, and we are seeing continually growing numbers of Jews who are telling them so.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:21 PM

irishenglish, Israel was in no danger in 1967. Even the Israeli military has said that this is true. Israeli leaders have also said that they had a choice and that they chose to attack because they wanted to increase their space. Some of the Israeli military leadership at the time even said that it is an insult to the Israeli military to suggest that Israel was in any danger.

Israel's approach is to create pretexts for what it calls "reprisals" which are nothing more than land grabs. This is something that members of the Israeli leadership have admitted to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:22 PM

CarolC,

"But Israel was not being threatened in 1967"


Incorrect.

I was alive and reading the paper in 1967-( Before the war) and there were significant threats and military actions ( moving armies into attack positions, kicking out UN observers) BY THE ARAB NATIONS.


If YOUR statement is what you believe, you are easily mislead.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:28 PM

" There are many Christian Arabs living in the US and other Western countries, who came here after fleeing the ethnic cleansing during 1948/49."

This is a true statemnt- but you fail to state that a large number of the Christians came frome the WEST BANK, which fell under ARAB control.

No Israelis, so guess who they were fleeing from?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:31 PM

"The ones who fled had a choice. Flee or be killed. That is not a choice."

I agree- but YOU stated that JEWS given that choice were not forced to leave, so...

Glad to see we both think it is wrong to threaten someone. Too bad you do not see Jews as human enough to be worth the same as Palestinian Moslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: pdq
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:39 PM

Hashemites are actually followers of the great Irish hero Father Corned Beef, inventor of the fried potato.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:42 PM

http://www.peacefaq.com/sixdaywar.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:44 PM

"Never in human history can an aggressor have made his purpose known in advance so clearly and so widely. Certain of victory, both the Arab leaders and their peoples threw off all restraint. Between the middle of May and fifth of June, world-wide newspapers, radio and, most incisively, television brought home to millions of people the threat of politicide bandied about with relish by the leaders of these modern states. Even more blatant was the exhilaration which the Arabic peoples displayed as the prospect of executing genocide on the people of Israel ... In those three weeks of mounting tension people throughout the world watched and waited in growing anxiety--or in some cases, in hopeful expectation--for the overwhelming forces of at least Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq to bear down from three sides to crush tiny Israel and slaughter her people."
- Samuel Katz, Battleground: Fact and fantasy in Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:45 PM

Voice of the Arabs proclaimed, on May 18, 1967:
"As of today there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:46 PM

Two days later an enthusiastic echo came from Hafez Assad, then Syria's Defense Minister, who proclaimed openly: "Our forces are now entirely ready...to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explodethe Zionist presence in the Arab homeland....The time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined the chorus of genocidal threats: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map." On June 4, Iraq formally joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The Damascus regime's commitment to military final solutions for Israel has been described by Ahmed S. Khalidi and Hussein Agha as stemming from "...an apparently strong conviction that the struggle with Israel is no mere political or territorial dispute, but rather a clash of destinies affecting the fate and future of the Middle East." Moreover, Syria's approach to Israel, say Khalidi and Agha, remains "bound up with the view that force, whether active or passive, is the final arbiter of the conflict with Israel and the ultimate guarantor of any settlement in the area."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:48 PM

The jurisprudential correctness of Israel's resort to anticipatory self-defense is well-established in longstanding customary international law. The Law of Nations is not a suicide pact. Israel could not have been expected to wait patiently for its own annihilation. Indeed, when the Government of Golda Meir decided not to exercise the lawful option of anticipatory self-defense in October 1973, when Egypt and Syria were preparing to launch yet another war of aggression against the Jewish State, her country almost paid for it with collective disappearance. And although Israel eventually prevailed against the Arab aggressors, it did so at a staggering cost in human life. The Yom Kippur War produced 2326 deaths of Israeli soldiers, nearly ten thousand injuries and hundreds of prisoners. These costs to Israel were the direct results of A'man's (Military Intelligence Branch) failure to predict the Arab attack, a failure known in Israel's intelligence community as the Mechdal, a Hebrew term meaning "omission", "nonperformance" or "neglect".

- Louis Rene Beres

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:49 PM

I was alive and reading the paper in 1967-( Before the war) and there were significant threats and military actions ( moving armies into attack positions, kicking out UN observers) BY THE ARAB NATIONS.

I was alive then too. But that's irrelevant. The Arabs nations were putting their troops into defensive positions, and even members of the Israeli leadership admit this.

Here's an account given by one of the UN observers who were in the West Bank at the time...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4144954716305864975

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:54 PM

Sorry, that revision won't work.


The real facts are still remembered by the living. You can't change the facts that the UN troops were forced to withdraw BY THE ARABS, the shipping in the area blocked BY THE ARABS, and the tanks rolled up to the Israeli bborder, in attack formations, BY THE ARABS.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:56 PM

Of course, CarolC, if you keep insisting that the Arabs are liars and never tell the truth ( see the quotes from their own statements) you might get some agreement with some of your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:56 PM

CarolC,

I must congratulate you on successfully steering this thread away from its topic: the policies of Barack Obama (who is very possibly the next president) in regard to Zionism, the Jewish people, the peace process, etc.

Virtually everything you've endlessly posted has nothing to do with Obama and his policies. I gather, from half a dozen personal messages, that you have made countless repetitions of the same things, over and over and over again, for years.

Well, I've been told that as the originator of this thread, it is my responsibility to steer it back to the topic at hand.

If you and Beardedbruce, and anyone else, want to discuss Obama's views on this situation, if you want to speculate on what he'll do on this issue should he become president, then this is the thread to do it in.

If you want to discuss something else, please start a thread on that topic.

Thnak you!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:00 PM

Sorry.


Obama states: ( re Hamas)
"I've repeatedly said, and I mean what I say: since they are a terrorist organization, we should not be dealing with them until they recognize Israel, renounce terrorism, and abide by previous agreements."

"When Israel invaded Lebanon two summers ago, I was in South Africa, a place where, obviously, when you get outside the United States, you can hear much more critical commentary about Israel's actions, and I was asked about this in a press conference, and that time, and for the entire summer, I was very adamant about Israel's right to defend itself. I said that there's not a nation-state on Earth that would tolerate having two of its soldiers kidnapped and just let it go. So I welcome the Muslim world's accurate perception that I am interested in opening up dialogue and interested in moving away from the unilateral policies of George Bush, but nobody should mistake that for a softer stance when it comes to terrorism or when it comes to protecting Israel's security or making sure that the alliance is strong and firm. You will not see, under my presidency, any slackening in commitment to Israel's security."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:01 PM

and "What do you make of Jimmy Carter's suggestion that Israel resembles an apartheid state?

BO: I strongly reject the characterization. Israel is a vibrant democracy, the only one in the Middle East, and there's no doubt that Israel and the Palestinians have tough issues to work out to get to the goal of two states living side by side in peace and security, but injecting a term like apartheid into the discussion doesn't advance that goal. It's emotionally loaded, historically inaccurate, and it's not what I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:02 PM

Everything I remember learning about the six day war is that there were a number of diplomatic moves back and forth between both sides, culminating in Egypt's mass border stacking of troops and tanks. Before that was Egypt's refusal to let any ship flying the Israeli flag through the Straits Of Tiran. Look, Britain wasn't threatened by Argentina, but Argentina took an action that pissed the British off-a fairly useless plot of South Atlantic islands. So the British took care of it (and all the while the British troops were steaming towards the Falkland's diplomatic efforts were going on) because they weren't going to let it stand. The situation in the Middle East in 1967 was a lot more complex of course, but do you see it at the most basic level? Egypt et al, took actions that pissed the Israelis off, something that they were not going to give into. So Israel took actions because they were not going to let that stand. It is absolutely no different than our colonists saying Don't tread on me.
You are using the word threatened, and maybe that is the wrong choice of word.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:03 PM

Yes, that's right, Ghost of Electricity, I'm the only on on this thread who has discussed anything other than Obama. Your bully tactics will not work on me. I suggest that you not waste your time with them.

beardedbruce, watch the video I've provided. It's an eyewitness testimony, with supporting documentation. It proves that everything that you and I and everyone else posting in this thread was told about the 1967 war is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:09 PM

Tribalism is a destructive thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:10 PM

So is empire, Riginslinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:12 PM

"The title alone is enough to know that it is nothing but lies"


Sorry, Back to TOPIC

IMO, Obama is saying the right things. It is his voting record ( as one of, if not the most liberal) in the Senate that has someof us concerned.

I do NOT think that he means other than well: It is the unintended consequences of his potential actions that I am concerned about.

If it comes to a situation where the President has to state that a threat to Israel is a threat to the US, and will be met with appropriate action, will he be believable?

I do NOT know.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:14 PM

Ghost, my apologies, I just contributed to thread drift as well! Back to Obama. With all the issues a new President must encounter, where would you place his (or whoever is the new President, hopefully Obama though!) order of dealing with the Middle East? If you take it as part of the Iraq war, then I think it is probably the number one priority. If you consider it seperate, where do you see it in terms of a priority list, after the economy, taxes, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:22 PM

I would hope that facilitating peace between Israel and the Palestinians will be a top priority of an Obama presidency from Day 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:23 PM

Anyone else watching CNN right now?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Yes top priority Ghost, but it's not the only issue, right?

Spaw, at work, what's going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:28 PM

Of course there are many issues that a president must be concerned with. I said I hoped facilitating peace between Israel and the Palestinians will be "a top priority." I certainly didn't suggest it would be the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:30 PM

So, we're back to tribalism again.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:40 PM

Obama has indicated that he is pretty unreservedly pro-Israel. There's nothing in that interview to suggest that his position is any different from that of Clinton, McCain, or Bush for that matter.

Which is not particularly surprising in anyone running for President in the USA. Basically candidates are treading water on this issue, and always will.
....................

It seems to me that it would be better if more attention in discussions like this could be directed to ways in which things could be made better, or ways which threaten to make things even worse, rather than going over the terrible injustices of the past.

That's not to dismiss the importance of excp.or9ingb the past, but there are ways of doing that which have more potential of getting somewhere useful. I remember coming across an article once about technique of conflict resolution based on the principle that each side has to be able to state the other side's position in a way that satisfies the other side as being fair, accurate and dispassionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:45 PM

Obama has indicated that he is pretty unreservedly pro-Israel. There's nothing in that interview to suggest that his position is any different from that of Clinton, McCain, or Bush for that matter.

Which is not particularly surprising in anyone running for President in the USA. Basically candidates are treading water on this issue, and always will.
....................

It seems to me that it would be better if more attention in discussions like this could be directed to ideas about ways in which things could be made better, or threaten to be made worse, rather than going over the terrible injustices of the past.

That's not to dismiss the importance of exploring the past, but there are ways of doing that which have more potential of getting somewhere useful. I remember coming across an article once about technique of conflict resolution based on the principle that each side has to be able to state the other sides position in a way that satisfies the other side as being fair, accurate and dispassionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:48 PM

"It seems to me that it would be better if more attention in discussions like this could be directed to ideas about ways in which things could be made better,"


             Enter Jimmy Carter, center stage!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:55 PM

I think it's necessary to understand the past in order to be able to move effectively into a better future, McGrath. As long as Palestinians are the victims of the kinds of libels that have been and are still being committed against them, people will use those libels as an excuse to deny the Palestinians' humanity and their rights as human beings, as we can see from posts in this thread, such as beardedbruce's.

The truth about the history needs to be told so that nobody will have any more excuses for denying the Palestinians the status of human being.

I think Obama is probably more aware of this history than the other candidates, but if he's not, I intend to make every effort to help him become aware of it if he is elected. Of the three, I think he is the least likely to deny another human being their status of human being, and the rights that they are entitled to as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:56 PM

Without mentioning Obama, Bush basically used his address to state that any "negotiations" with Iran, etc. would be naive. Dems across the board are already calling it "bullshit" (that from Joe Biden) and in general taking Bush to task not only for his stupidity but for making a political speech at a state celebration (Israel anniv). Here's something from CNN but this will be huge headlines for days. Put it under the heading, "Bush Plays the Fear Card."


JERUSALEM (CNN) -- In his first address to Israel's parliament Thursday, President Bush reiterated the United States' "unbreakable" alliance with the Jewish state and denounced calls to negotiate with "terrorists and radicals."


Ehud Olmert, left, and President Bush share a laugh Thursday at the ancient hilltop fortress of Masada.

In a speech before the Knesset, Bush compared calls to talk with unnamed terrorist groups as a "foolish delusion" that was suggested before World War II.

"As Nazi tanks crossed into Poland in 1939, an American senator declared, 'Lord, if only I could have talked to Hitler, all of this might have been avoided,' " Bush said. "We have an obligation to call this what it is -- the false comfort of appeasement, which has been repeatedly discredited by history."

Former President Jimmy Carter recently wrapped up a trip to the Middle East, which included talks with leaders of Hamas -- an Islamic militant group that controls the Palestinian territory of Gaza.

Carter hoped to persuade Hamas to negotiate with Israel in an attempt to reach a broader Israeli-Palestinian peace deal.

Hamas has not been included in peace talks between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, under President Mahmoud Abbas, who control the West Bank. Israel and the United States refuse to negotiate with Hamas until it renounces terrorism and recognizes Israel's right to exist.

Bush also chided the United Nations for regularly criticizing Israel's record of human rights. The president called it a "a source of shame that the United Nations passes more human rights resolutions against the freest democracy in the Middle East than any other nation in the world.

Don't Miss
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Israeli police raid offices in Olmert probe
Behind the Scenes: Clock ticking on Mideast peace
In Depth: Israel at 60
"We believe that religious liberty is fundamental to civilized society. So we condemn anti-Semitism in all forms -- whether by those who openly question Israel's right to exist, or by others who quietly excuse them," Bush said.

The Mideast peace talks, which Bush lauds as the path to an independent Palestinian state, are "largely secret," National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley told reporters Wednesday en route to the Middle East, but negotiations are moving forward.

"There is less known about them publicly than is going on," Hadley said. "The issues are hard.

"One of the things he [Bush] needs to do is rally the support of the Arab world behind both Israeli and the Palestinian leadership so that they will support whatever is negotiated between the two sides," he added. Key players »

In an interview with al-Arabiya television before he left for the Mideast, Bush said a peace deal by year's end was still possible, and that observers should not be discouraged that he was meeting separately with Israeli and Palestinian leaders. It was more about logistics than discord, he said.

"It's a very complicated process, and I don't think necessarily not having a trilateral meeting should be read as anything other than that it just didn't work out," he told the TV station Monday. "It's not a sign that the talks aren't going forward." Watch how the trip combines business, pleasure »

During his Mideast tour, Bush also is scheduled to visit oil-rich Saudi Arabia, where he will meet King Abdullah amid increasing American frustration at gas prices.

Congress on Monday directed Bush to stop filling the government's emergency oil supply for six months to try to bring prices down, a move Bush has argued would have little effect.

"His visit to Saudi Arabia will also commemorate the 75th anniversary of the formal establishment of U.S.-Saudi relations," the White House said.

Bush will then head to Egypt, where he will meet with another U.S. ally, President Hosni Mubarak. He will also meet with Abbas and Jordan's King Abdullah II. advertisement


Egypt is trying to broker an agreement between Israeli and Hamas leaders to end attacks on each other because the tit-for-tat violence threatens the broader attempt to reach a peace deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:03 PM

I think it's necessary to understand the past in order to be able to move effectively into a better future, CarolC. As long as Jews are the victims of the kinds of libels that have been and are still being committed against them, people will use those libels as an excuse to deny the Jews' humanity and their rights as human beings, as we can see from posts in this thread, such as your's.

The truth about the history needs to be told so that nobody will have any more excuses for denying the Jews the status of human being.



Just as true- no more, no less.

Saw the video, listened, saw no PROOF of any lies regarding Arab buildup, UN withdrawals, or tanks massing on the Israeli border.

********************************

Obama may or may not be honest- but I am far more inclined to trust him than I would trust Hillary. But that does not mean I agree with the policies that he has been associated with in the Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:08 PM

The truth about the history needs to be told so that nobody will have any more excuses for denying the Jews the status of human being.

Jews are not being denied the status of human being. There are no Jews anywhere in the world who have no citizenship to any country, and there are no Jews anywhere in the world who are living under military occupation, where every aspect of their entire being is subject to the whims of the occupational forces (unless there are still some Jews living in Iraq, in which case there are such Jews, but it is the US government who is denying them their humanity). This is the case for the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:24 PM

Here's a page about work being carried out by the Palestinian Center for Conflict Resolution & Reconciliation (CCRR)

The Center for Conflict Resolution & Reconciliation (CCRR) is a Palestinian NGO committed to an alternative approach to conflict transformation. We cherish the values of peace, reconciliation, forgiveness, respect and hope. It is our mission to contribute to a prospering, non-violent Palestine by empowering marginalized groups to participate in the decision-making process that affects their lives. CCRR seeks to strengthen democracy, human rights and justice as they are essential to a lasting peace.

We are working to turn the culture of violence into a culture of non-violence, believing reconciliation to be a long-term goal. We campaign for peace and justice both within the Palestinian community and among the people of our region.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:42 PM

Saw the video, listened, saw no PROOF of any lies regarding Arab buildup, UN withdrawals, or tanks massing on the Israeli border.

It is proof that the Arab forces on the borders were defensive, not offensive, and it is proof (supported even by Bill Hahn's favorite source of information, Michael Oren) that the government of Jordan didn't want war.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:59 PM

The video made no mention of the Egyptian troops, just Syrian, Lebanese and Jordanian. The video did also not mention Egypt's refusal to allow Israeli ships through the Gulf of Tiran. Sorry, but it's not a smoking gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:07 PM

I realize that, irishenglish, but the point of mine that I was being asked to defend was Jordan's good relations with Israel. However, whatever Egypt might or might not have been doing could not possibly be considered grounds for Israel attacking and occupying what was then a part of Jordan. That was done, as the UN observer noted, entirely for the purpose of taking land.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:50 PM

Well, after reviewing this depressing thread I suppose a case could be made for unilateral peace. Screw the rest of them!

That case won't be made by Rice and GWB.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:04 PM

It won't be made by people who are addicted to superstition either.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:08 PM

That depends on the superstition, Rig.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:00 AM

In this case, it's Islam and Judaism.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:48 AM

"Well, after reviewing this depressing thread I suppose a case could be made for unilateral peace. Screw the rest of them!"

It's too bad the thread has turned depressing. It was started with the intention of optimism based on the possibility that Obama will bring a new level of engagement aimed at establishing peace should he be elected.

What made it depressing is the endless repetition of grievances. The reality is Israel is there to stay and the Palestinians are there to stay. There is a two-state solution that the majority of both populations embrace. Sooner or later we're going to get that solution and my hope is that Obama will be elected and will facilitate it happening sooner than later.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:01 AM

"The reality is Israel is there to stay and the Palestinians are there to stay. There is a two-state solution that the majority of both populations embrace. Sooner or later we're going to get that solution and my hope is that Obama will be elected and will facilitate it happening sooner than later."

That sums it up quite nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Emma B
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:34 AM

'There is a two-state solution that the majority of both populations embrace.'
I beg to disagree .....

'The pointless proposition for a binational Israel'

'Palestinians released thousands of black balloons over the West Bank yesterday -- one for each of the 21,915 days since Israel's creation. After 60 years of occupation and bloodshed, many are beginning to lose hope in the dream of an independent Palestinian state existing side by side with Israel in the Holy Land. Instead, they are turning to a different model altogether: a single, binational state, shared by Arab and Jew.'
from todays Canadian press

elsewhere.....

Meron Benvenisti, the former deputy mayor of Jerusalem, has pronounced the two-state approach "inapplicable" to the problem of Israel and Palestine and is calling for a single binational state based on Arab-Jewish equality.

and...
'President Bush is in Jerusalem, where he addressed parliament Thursday at ceremonies marking the 60th anniversary of Israel's independence. He is trying to boost peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians. But a majority on both sides now views the peace process with enormous skepticism.'

from 'Skepticism Grows Over Two-State Mideast Solution'
National Public Radio

Apartheid is not a solution!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:50 AM

A separate state for Palestinians is not "apartheid" anymore than building Israel fromt he deserts was "apartheid". They deserve a homeland as much as any people, do they not?

At least, they certainly deserve the right to choose their own form and kind of organization and government.

I am pretty sure that neither Israelis not Palestinians are much interested in being governed by the other. I am also pretty sure that trying to evolve a coherent government which blends the two is much less likely, would take much longer, and would be much more difficult than creating a Palestinian state. It might be better in the long run, but making it work would be a pure bear.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Emma B
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:20 PM

A 'homeland' yes!
'Bantustans' no!
remember The Black Homeland Citizenship Act of 1970?

US President George Bush addressed the Israeli Knesset Thursday, declaring Israel a "homeland for the chosen people."

Where do the 'non chosen' folks go?

Arabs in Israel now form 20 percent of the population but face constant discrimination.
They are barred from marrying Palestinians outside Israel and bringing their spouses to live with them.
They find it almost impossible to get jobs in industries proclaimed as "strategic," such as electricity and water, or to lease land from the Jewish National Fund, despite a Supreme Court ruling in their favour.
Their cities, towns, and villages get less financial support from the state budget.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:33 PM

"Where do the 'non chosen' folks go?"


                   Boy, that's a great question, Emma.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:16 PM

JTA article about Obama vs. McCain

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:41 PM

The non-chosen Palestinians GOT their homeland in 1923.


"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." "

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Emma B
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:16 PM

Zionist leaders stressed that their goals were peaceful and no threat to Palestinian Arabs.
However....

In 1940 Joseph Weitz, an official of the Yishuv, responsible for Jewish colonization, noted in his diary:

"Between Ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small Country. The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of the Jordan river without Arabs. And there is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be left."

I do however agree with Amos that, to quote Ali Abunimah, an American Journalist

'We should be under no illusion that seeking a one-state solution is a short-cut to peace. On the contrary, we need to prepare for years of sustained political struggle.

But at least this path offers an alternative to violence combined with the prospect that real peace can be achieved. Persisting along the present path offers hope of neither.....

Israeli and Palestinian supporters of a one-state solution must build a new movement. This partnership must work to translate the vast international sympathy for the Palestinian cause into active support for the transformation -- with international assistance and guarantees -- of Israel and the Occupied Territories into a democracy for all its inhabitants

The burden to persuade Israelis lies largely with Palestinians, who while demanding equal rights and an end to the Jewish Israeli monopoly on power, must hold out a future in which the two communities express their identities as equals rooted by right and history in the same land.....

even in the darkest days of apartheid, the African National Congress under Nelson Mandela offered white South Africans a future of reconciliation, not revenge. As in South Africa, a truth and reconciliation process can help both peoples overcome the pain of the past even as they build a just future together'

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:23 PM

"The non-chosen Palestinians GOT their homeland in 1923."


               And why were they non-chosen?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:29 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Various groups have considered themselves chosen by God for some purpose such as to act as God's agent on earth. This status may be viewed as a self-imposed higher standard to fulfill God's expectation.

Specifically, in the Hebrew Bible, called the Old Testament by Christians, and the Tanach by Jews, the phrase Chosen People refers to the ancient Hebrews/Israelites. In the Book of Deuteronomy, God proclaims the Nation of Israel, known originally simply as the Hebrews, as His chosen people above all others.(Deuteronomy 7:6) As mentioned in the book of Exodus, the Hebrew people are God's chosen people and from them shall come the Messiah, or redeemer of the human race. The Israelites also possess the "Word of God" and/or "Law of God" in the form of the Torah as communicated by God to Moses. Jews and, by extension, Christians consider themselves to be the "chosen people" Adherents to Islam make, by the same extension as Christians, the same claim of chosenness by accepting what they see as the validity of the Law of God as told by Moses; as do other religions that are built on those same laws."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:29 PM

Talk to Moses...


But the Moslim Homeland of Transjordan was split off from Palestine in 1923.

Jews were forbidden to settle there, or be citizens.

Some 20% of the present population of Israel are Moslim.

0% of the citizens of Jordan are Jews.



"Chosen" is a whole other discussion. EVERY religion states that their members are set aside, consecrated, chosen, "born again" , "saved" or some term of that sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:34 PM

CarolC,


You state:"It is proof that the Arab forces on the borders were defensive, not offensive, and it is proof (supported even by Bill Hahn's favorite source of information, Michael Oren) that the government of Jordan didn't want war."


Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:43 PM

Somewhere in that timeline too, I recall Egypt flew some troops to Jordan as support.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:02 PM

Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts.


"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war"

--General Matityahu Peled, one of those responsible for planning the 1967 war of conquest (Ha'aretz)


"there was never any danger of extermination"

--Israeli Air Force General Ezer Weizmann (Ma'ariv, 19 April 1972)


"All this story about the danger of extermination has been a complete invention and has been blown up a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territories"

--Mordechai Bentov, former Israeli cabinet minister (Al Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)


"The moment is coming when we will march on Damascus to overthrow the Syrian Government" (this is the reason Nasser removed the UN observers and closed the Straits of Tiran)

--General Yitzhak Rabin on Israeli radio, May 11, 1967


"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai on 14 May would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it"

--Yitzhak Rabin (Le Monde, 29 February 1968)


"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal" (Israeli army)

--General Peled (Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972)


"The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him"

--Prime Minister Menachem Begin (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982)


So what we can see is that Israel stated it's intention to invade Syria, and overthrow it's government. Egypt, because of its mutual defense pact, we obliged to support Syria. But supporting Syria in defending itself is a defensive posture, not an offensive one. It was Israel that was waging the offensive attacks, as it had on Jordanian territory in the attack on the village of Samua, and as it had stated it's intention to do in Syria. Syria, Jordan, and Egypt were acting defensively in response to Israel's war of conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:05 PM

CarolC,

I dispute all of that, and they are not facts.

Obviously one of us is wrong, or perhaps both. Pray tell why you think the "facts" you have are more "true" than the "facts" that I have presented??? Because they support what you want to believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:17 PM

Readers of this thread may be interested in seeing this video excerpt of Barack Obama's comments in response to the comments George W. Bush made in Israel, and John McCain's agreement with those comments that Obama was interested in "appeasing" Iran and terrorist organizations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sOlaso_7Z8

In his comments, Obama pointed out that the USA is in its sixth year of war in Iraq, no WMD have ever been found, we were told the war would last only a few months and cost a tiny fraction of what it has actually cost, and the occupation has not made us safer. He added that Osama bin Laden is still at large, and Al Qaeda is stronger than ever because "we took our eye off the ball in Afghanistan." Obama then noted that Iran-the country Bush and McCain accuse Obama of appeasing-has been the greatest beneficiary of their bumbling foreign policy and course in Iraq, and that both Iran and Hamas are stronger because of these policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:20 PM

CarolC,

You state these are not true:
May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

Did Cairo Radio say this? YES or NO.


May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Did Cairo Radio say this? YES or NO.


May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

Did Nasser announce this blockade? YES or NO?


May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

Did el-Assad say this? YES or NO?

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

Did Nasser say this? YES or NO?



May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

Did Nasser say this? YES or NO?


May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

Dis King Hussein sign this pact? YES or NO?


May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

Did Al Akhbar report this? YES or NO?

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

Dis Aref announce this? YES or NO??


June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

Did Iraq join? YES or NO?


June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

You are claiming that Israel did not attack the airfields????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:28 PM

beardedbruce, I provided sources for my facts. You did not provide sources for your assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:29 PM

Ahh, I see your source is Cairo Radio. I will respond in a moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:31 PM

1st point: Shall I give you the results on the rest???


AltaVista found 65 results

BACKGROUNDER : SIX DAYS IN JUNE
"For the man whose knowledge is not in order, the more he has of it, ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel. ...
www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/medigest/jul97/backgrnd.html
More pages from cdn-friends-icej.ca


History Channel: 1967 War ...
Home. Shows. All Shows. Digging for the Truth. Dogfights. Engineering ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel. ...
boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=600014784&messageID=600258802
More pages from boards.historychannel.com


Six Day War - crucial quotes
Timeline of significant quotes that led to the Second Arab-Israeli conflict. ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel" ...
www.sixdaywar.co.uk/crucial_quotes.htm
More pages from sixdaywar.co.uk


The Six-Day War, The 6-Day War, 1967 - The Peace FAQ
Was Israel the ... Did Israel attack peacefull Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel. ...
www.peacefaq.com/sixdaywar.html
More pages from peacefaq.com


Six Day War - timeline
Timeline of significant quotes and actions that led to the Arab ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel" ...
www.sixdaywar.co.uk/timeline-concise.htm
More pages from sixdaywar.co.uk


The Six-Day War (1967)
In May 1967, Egypt and Syria took a number of steps which led Israel ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel. ...
members.tripod.com/arabterrorism/FAQ/war1967.html
More pages from members.tripod.com


For Zion's Sake Ministries - Israel Humanitarian Aid Organization
For Zion's Sake Ministries is a Jerusalem based non-profit Humanitarian Aid Organization that has been established to ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel. ...
www.forzion.com/full-article.php?news=732
More pages from forzion.com


The 1967 War - Political Forum
May 14, 1967: Egypt's President Gamal Nasser demands the withdrawal of United Nations force--established in ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel. ...
www.politicalforum.com/middle-east/30666-1967-war.html
More pages from politicalforum.com

Varför är högern aldrig emot krig? - Sidan 6 - Flashback Forum
Sidan 6-Varför är högern aldrig emot krig? Anarkism, aktivism och ... "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel. ...
www.flashback.info/showthread.php?t=530759&page=6
More pages from flashback.info

[bruce- you and others have been asked to not post more than one screen of copy & paste. you just posted about 10 screens full. Please post the LINK that will give those results, not the full list.]

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:33 PM

"You did not provide sources for your assertions."

False. I gave the source, as YOU claimed to have done. If ithat is "proof" for you, then I claim I can use it as "proof" for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:38 PM

Provided everything written here has some element of truth in it, why should the United States be involved in it in any way?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:42 PM

Point 2....


AltaVista found 57 results

History Channel: 1967 War ...
Home. Shows. All Shows. Digging for the Truth. Dogfights ... The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence. ...
boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=600014784&messageID=600258802
More pages from boards.historychannel.com


The Six-Day War (1967)
Did Israel attack peaceful Egypt, Syria, Jordan and ... The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence. ...
members.tripod.com/arabterrorism/FAQ/war1967.html
More pages from members.tripod.com


Six Day War - crucial quotes
Timeline of significant quotes that led to the Second ... The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence" ...
www.sixdaywar.co.uk/crucial_quotes.htm
More pages from sixdaywar.co.uk


>

But you claim they never said this????

[bruce- you and others have been asked to not post more than one screen of copy & paste. you just posted about 10 screens full. Please post the LINK that will give those results, not the full list.]

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:45 PM

Israel announced its intention to invade Syria and overthrow its government. I have provided a source for this. Members of the US government have said that if Iran were to attack Israel, we would annihilate Iran. You have indicated that you believe this is a legitimate thing for members of our government to say. Conversely, if Israel has announced an intention to invade Syria, a country with which Egypt had a mutual defense pact, and overthrow its government, it is not unreasonable for Egypt to try to prevent such an attack with harsh words about what the consequences would be for Israel if they were to do it. That doesn't mean they could follow through with it, (and even if they did, it would be defensive in nature, and not offensive). According to many sources, including many within the Israeli government and Military (some of whom I have quoted here in this thread), Egypt was not in a position to carry through on any threats of that nature. About a third of Egypt's army was in Yemen at the time, and according to Rabin, Nasser had only sent two division to the Sinai.

All of the actions taken by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were defensive in nature, because Israel had announced it's intention to attack Syria and overthrow its government. That is a fact. All of the things said and done by Nasser were in response to this announcement by Israel. This makes them defensive, and not offensive. This is also a fact. Look at the dates for the things you have listed. Israel's announcement to attack Syria was made on May 11th. All of the things you listed happened after May 11th. Israel's announcement that it would attack Syria and overthrow its government was a declaration of war by Israel against its neighbors.

Israel was the aggressor nation in this conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:45 PM

Rig, THAT is a different debate. The facts of what was said by the Arab countries, and the physical movement of armies are facts, and cannot be changed because one does not like what they imply. They happened, and are documented. To deny them is beyond reasonable discussion.

One can certainly debate the REASONS that they said or did something, but changing the documented actions of the past is not an allowable form of debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:48 PM

"You did not provide sources for your assertions."

False. I gave the source, as YOU claimed to have done. If ithat is "proof" for you, then I claim I can use it as "proof" for me.

Yes, I know. And I tried to post a correction for my statement, but for some reason it didn't post.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:49 PM

So, I guess they had a real good fortune teller, to be able to reply like this befor Israel even decided to attack???


March 8th 1965

"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood" - President of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser

Feb 22nd 1967

President Attassi of Syria: "it is the duty of all of us now to move from defensive positions to offensive positions and enter the battle to liberate the usurped land…Everyone must face the test and enter the battle to the end."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:53 PM

"Syria's attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights finally provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967. During the attack, Israeli planes shot down six Syrian fighter planes — MiGs supplied by the Soviet Union. Shortly thereafter, the Soviets — who had been providing military and economic assistance to both Syria and Egypt — gave Damascus false information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, Syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with Egypt and asked Nasser to come to its aid."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:56 PM

Considering the fact that Israel had been waging war on them for quite some time in the form of bombing raids on their villages, I would say that their language and attitude was quite understandable.

We know, from members of the Israeli government as well as the UN observer in the video I posted, that Israel did everything in its power to provoke a response from its neighbors so that it could use it as a pretext for bombing the crap out of them, and it did so, many times, and it did so for the purpose of drawing them into a wider conflict so that they could create a justification for taking land. But it was always taking land that was the objective. Israel was never in any danger, and its neighbors really did not want war.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:57 PM

Feb 22nd is BEFORE April 7th, I do believe. Correct me if I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: pdq
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:58 PM

Cue "Oh! Carol" by Neil Sedaka...pan to the meeting of the leadership council of the Antisemitic Defensive League...turn off brain...feel the haterd...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:01 PM

Syria's attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights finally provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967. During the attack, Israeli planes shot down six Syrian fighter planes — MiGs supplied by the Soviet Union. Shortly thereafter, the Soviets — who had been providing military and economic assistance to both Syria and Egypt — gave Damascus false information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, Syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with Egypt and asked Nasser to come to its aid."

We know from eyewitness accounts (the UN observer in the video I posted), as well as members of the Israeli government and military, that Syria had not been attacking Israeli kibbutzim. Israel was sending armored tractors and bulldozers into the demilitarized zone and plowing it up. This was a violation of the DMZ. When the armored tractors would get too close to the Syrian border, Syrian forces would fire on them. The Israeli government would call this an attack on Israeli Kibbutzim, and use it as a justification for bombing Syria. But the fact is, there were no Kibbutzim in the DMZ, and if there were, they were there illegally, and Syrian forces only fired at the armored vehicles that were approaching their border.

Israel was doing this in order to provoke a response so it could use it as a pretext for "reprisals".

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:04 PM

Cue "Oh! Carol" by Neil Sedaka...pan to the meeting of the leadership council of the Antisemitic Defensive League...turn off brain...feel the haterd...

pdq, I am aware that people with your mindset use a lot of bullying smear tactics like the one above in order to try to silence people who advocate for human rights for Palestinians, but it is mindsets like yours that arise out of hatred, and not the other way around.

And those kinds of bullying smear tactics won't work on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:04 PM

If they did not want war, WHY did they demand the REMOVAL of the UN forces????

"The decision on May 13, 1967, to remove UNEF and deploy UAR troops along the Israeli border was subsequently made to strengthen his position throughout the Arab world. It is doubtful that Nasser intended his actions to provoke a war with Israel, yet the alternative--losing prestige and influence throughout the Arab world–was deemed even less palatable.

The message to withdraw UNEF was first conveyed to the commander of UNEF, Major General Indar Jit Rikhye, on May 16, 1967. The UAR Liaison Officer, Brigadier General Ibrahim Sharkawy, called Rikhye in the afternoon to inform him that a special envoy would be arriving with an important message for the UNEF commander. The letter--delivered by a courier holding the rank of brigadier general--was from the UAR Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Muhammad Fawzy, and simply stated:

I gave my instructions to all UAR armed forces to be ready for action against Israel, the moment it might carry out any aggressive action against any Arab country. Due to these instructions our troops are already concentrated in Sinai on our eastern border. For the sake of complete security of all UN troops which install outposts along our borders, I request that you issue your orders to withdraw all these troops immediately.[11]

The courier, expecting immediate compliance on the part of UNEF, was sorely disappointed when General Rikhye merely noted the contents of the letter, and informed his visitors that he would pass the message on to Secretary-General U Thant. Rikhye would have to await orders from New York.

Clearly troubled by the lack of immediate action, the envoy explained that UAR troops were already on their way to the international frontier and wished to prevent any clashes with UNEF. From the UAR military point of view, it was imperative that UAR forces occupy Sharm al-Shaykh and al-Sabha before the Israelis had a chance to react. Rikhye was adamant in his inability to act before receiving instructions from New York, but ventured to ask his interlocutors if the consequences of removing UNEF from the international frontier had been fully contemplated. To this Sharkawy responded, "I will see you for lunch at the best restaurant in Tel Aviv in a few days."[12] "

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2005/issue2/jv9no2a5.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:06 PM

They removed the UN forces after Israel announced it was going to attack Syria and overthrow it's government. This action was a response to Israel's stated intention to attack Syria and overthrow it's government.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:07 PM

Less than two hours after Secretary-General U Thant learned of Egypt's intention to seek UNEF's withdrawal, he met with Muhammad al-Kony, the permanent representative of the UAR to the UN. Unaware what was happening back home, al-Kony was told by U Thant that there had, in effect, been a breach in protocol and that any request for the removal of UNEF must be directed to the secretary-general. U Thant also sought clarification of Nasser's intent. The original note only made mention of withdrawing from the outposts along the UAR border, yet in the course of the discussion with General Rikhye, specific mention had been made of withdrawing from the UN positions at Sharm al-Shaykh and al-Sabha. It was also unclear whether the withdrawal was of a permanent or temporary nature.

In the view of the secretary-general, however, a temporary withdrawal "would be unacceptable because the purpose of the UN Force in Gaza and Sinai is to prevent a recurrence of fighting, and it cannot be asked to stand aside in order to enable the two sides to resume fighting."[14] While seeking this clarification, U Thant sought to reassure Ambassador al-Kony that were the UAR government to withdraw its consent for UNEF's presence on their territory, the secretary-general would be obliged to respect their wishes. U Thant did not think that this position required consultation and made it clear from the start that any request for a temporary withdrawal or redeployment of UNEF's forces would be considered as a call for the entire UN force to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:08 PM

"They removed the UN forces after Israel announced it was going to attack Syria and overthrow it's government. This action was a response to Israel's stated intention to attack Syria and overthrow it's government."

False- please read what the UN said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:17 PM

Interesting set of quotes from Israeli sources disputing the existence of any real threat to Israel in 1967 Carol posted (16 May 08 - 05:02 PM).

I note that they haven't been challenged or commented on.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:21 PM

Nor have any of the ones by Arabs declaring the destruction of Israel- but THEY were made ( to the world) before the 1967 War.

What military commander will state that he was in danger of loseing- AFTER he had one a decisive victory that gave the Israelis a ( perhaps over-rated) reputation?

I have seen no substantiation of those quotes, nor do I think them significant, given what the actions were IN 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:24 PM

"This action was a response to Israel's stated intention to attack Syria and overthrow it's government."


Oh. let me understand- "Israel is going to attack our defensive forces- we better get all these witnesses and the forces that are keeping the Israelis from attacking us out of the way."


Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:30 PM

Ghost of Electricity, with regard to your 15 May 08 - 03:56 PM post asking that folks "post about the policies of Barack Obama (who is very possibly the next president) in regard to Zionism, the Jewish people, the peace process, etc", well ya see how well that worked, don't ya?

I mean why start a new thread about the subject of Israel and Palestine if this thread is available for the posting?

My comment doesn't mean that I don't recognize the importance of the topic of the history and current political situation between Israel and Palestine. But that wasn't what this thread was supposed to be about.

But then again this is Mudcat, and I know that I've been known to go off topic on some threads...But still, the topic that was supposed to be the topic of this thread woulda been interesting to talk about...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:32 PM

What military commander will state that he was in danger of losing- AFTER he had won a decisive victory...

Just for one such, the Duke of Wellington talking about the Battle of Waterloo - "A damn close run thing". (Actually his exact words were "It has been a damn nice thing - the nearest run thing you ever saw...", which means the same, but tradition has edited and perhaps improved the quote, as happens.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:38 PM

The quotes cited by CarolC are the opinions of individuals, an opinion does not constitute a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:39 PM

Ghost of Electricity, would you please post some excerpts from that JTA article about Obama vs. McCain whose link you provided in your
16 May 08 - 01:16 PM post to this thread.

That website has a sign-in process in which you have to give your email address and come up with a password in order to read its articles. That's all well and good, but I prefer not to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:43 PM

I just realized my comment on 16 May 08 - 06:30 PM post was the
200th post to this thread.

Sorry, leadfingers or whoever else might have been aiming to get that number.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:47 PM

Azizi, there is button to click on the JTA site that says something like read the article without registering, but in any case I will post it here.

NEW YORK (JTA) -- The Democratic race may have a few more weeks left, but Sens. Barack Obama and John McCain are already waging a bruising battle for Jewish support in the general election.

In recent days, the McCain team has stepped up its efforts to link Obama to Hamas, with several surrogates
also misrepresenting the Democratic candidate's comments to make it seem as if he had criticized Israel in harsh terms.

At the same time, Obama has been stepping up his outreach to Jewish voters, giving several high-profile interviews and speeches outlining his support for Israel and ties to the Jewish community.

In addition to granting lengthy interviews to Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic and Martin Peretz, the editor-in-chief of The New Republic -- two journalists well known and respected among many pro-Israel activists -- he also spoke at last week's Israel 60 event hosted by the Israel Embassy in Washington. Obama was also scheduled to spend several days campaigning in Florida next week.

The flurry of campaign activity comes as a new poll shows Jewish voters overwhelmingly backing Obama over McCain, but suggesting that the Arizona Republican currently commands more support than previous GOP nominees.

According to the poll, conducted by Gallup, Obama would win 61 to 32 percent among Jews, slightly less than the 66 to 27 percent advantage that U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) would have over McCain.

Some Republicans were quick to note that either number would represent a significant drop from the 80 percent or so that Bill Clinton and Al Gore each reportedly won in their respective presidential runs, or the 75 percent that John Kerry took in 2004. Some Democrats, meanwhile, were insisting that Obama's figures would go up once the media and voters began focusing their attention on McCain's support for a range of conservative positions. Just last week, for example, he promised he would appoint U.S. Supreme Court justices like John Roberts and Samuel Alito.

The apparent potential for movement in either direction appears to be energizing partisans on both sides, and has insiders predicting an increasingly bitter fight.

The big flap this week involved Obama's lengthy interview about Israel and the Middle East with The Atlantic.

Obama spent a good deal of the interview stressing his support for a variety of positions held by most prominent Jewish organizations, including the U.S. policy of boycotting Hamas unless it recognizes Israel, renounces violence and honors past agreements with Jerusalem. He also strongly rejected former President Jimmy Carter's use of the term apartheid in connection to Israel, saying the term was "emotionally loaded, historically inaccurate, and it's not what I believe."

During the interview, Obama also recalled that from his days in elementary school, "as a kid who never felt like he was rooted," there was something "powerful and compelling" to him about the Jewish and Zionist narrative of enduring tragedy and returning home.

But top GOP lawmakers and the Republican Jewish Coalition were quick to pounce on a portion of the interview in which Obama insisted that he did not see Israel as a "drag" on America's reputation overseas, but described the continuing Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a "constant wound" and a "constant sore" that infects all of U.S. foreign policy.

The minority leader of the U.S. House of Representatives, John Boehner (R-Ohio), and U.S. Rep. Eric Cantor (R-Va.), another top-ranking House Republican and the body's only Jewish GOPer, both issued statements claiming that Obama had used those terms to describe Israel, rather than the conflict. The Republican Jewish Coalition also criticized Obama's remarks.

Goldberg, who conducted the interview, responded with a biting blog post about Boehner's statement

"Mr. Boehner, I'm sure, is a terribly busy man, with many burdensome responsibilities, so I have to assume that he simply didn't have time to read the entire Obama interview, or even the entire paragraph, or even a single clause. If he had, of course, he would have seen that Obama was clearly calling the Middle East conflict, and not Israel, a sore," Goldberg wrote. "Why, there's no one who would disagree that the Middle East conflict is a 'sore,' is there?

Goldberg then invited Boehner to issue a correction stating "the obvious, which is that Obama expressed -- in twelve different ways -- his support for Israel to me."

Even before the scuffle over The Atlantic interview, Obama and his supporters were crying foul over the McCain camp's repeated references to the fact that one Hamas official was quoted as saying that he favored Obama because he has a vision to change America so that it leads the "world community but not with domination and arrogance."

"I think it's very clear who Hamas wants to be the next president of the United States. I think people should understand that I would be Hamas' worst nightmare," McCain said. "If Senator Obama is favored by Hamas, I think people can make judgments accordingly."

Obama, in an interview Sunday with Wolf Blitzer on CNN, called McCain's comments a "smear," noting that the two candidates have expressed virtually identical positions on Hamas. He called the comments an example of the Arizona Republican "losing his bearings as he pursues this nomination."

The context would seem to suggest that Obama was referring to the fact that McCain has repeatedly expressed his desire for a clean campaign about issues. But a McCain aide issued a statement accusing Obama of making a crack about the Republican's age.

In a separate interview with Blitzer on Sunday, McCain's most prominent Jewish backer, U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.), also raised the Hamas issue. Lieberman said that McCain has made clear that Obama "clearly doesn't support any of the values and goals of Hamas," but the question is why would someone associated with the terrorist group favor Obama.

"It suggests the difference between these two candidates," Lieberman said.

In his interview with The Atlantic, Obama offered an explanation for why some right-leaning members of the Jewish community might have a problem with him. The Illinois Democrat said that he was absolutely convinced that "some of the tensions that might arise between me and some of the more hawkish elements in the Jewish community in the United States might stem from the fact that I'm not going to blindly adhere to whatever the most hawkish position is just because that's the safest ground politically."

"I want to solve the problem, and so my job in being a friend to Israel is partly to hold up a mirror and tell the truth," he said, citing the issue of settlements as one example where tough questions need to be asked.

"I want to make sure that the people of Israel, when they kiss their kids and put them on that bus, feel at least no more existential dread than any parent does whenever their kids leave their sight," Obama said. "So that then becomes the question: Is settlement policy conducive to relieving that over the long term, or is it just making the situation worse? That's the question that has to be asked."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:57 PM

"Obama spent a good deal of the interview stressing his support for a variety of positions held by most prominent Jewish organizations, including the U.S. policy of boycotting Hamas unless it recognizes Israel, renounces violence and honors past agreements with Jerusalem. He also strongly rejected former President Jimmy Carter's use of the term apartheid in connection to Israel, saying the term was "emotionally loaded, historically inaccurate, and it's not what I believe.""


Good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:23 PM

Another good reason to avoid Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:32 PM

bobad, thanks for posting that article.

I wonder what Boehner's said about Goldberg's comment that "Mr. Boehner, I'm sure, is a terribly busy man, with many burdensome responsibilities, so I have to assume that he simply didn't have time to read the entire Obama interview, or even the entire paragraph, or even a single clause. If he had, of course, he would have seen that Obama was clearly calling the Middle East conflict, and not Israel, a sore," Goldberg wrote. "Why, there's no one who would disagree that the Middle East conflict is a 'sore,' is there?"
Ouch! :o)

Also, with regards to Senator Obama's comment "I want to make sure that the people of Israel, when they kiss their kids and put them on that bus, feel at least no more existential dread than any parent does whenever their kids leave their sight", the reference to "people of Israel" could have been also "Palestinian people", "people of Iraq", etc etc world wide, including people of the United States. That's why I want Barack Obama to be the next USA president instead of John McCain who will just continue George W. Bush's disastrous foreign policies.

I agree with the statement that Obama "has a vision to change America so that it leads the "world community but not with domination and arrogance." Just because a Hamas official said it doesn't mean that that statement is wrong. And it also doesn't mean that Barack Obama supports Hamas.

Also, I believe that a president Barack Obama would be fairer to Palestinians' short term and long term concerns than a president John McCain would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:18 PM

I'd have preferred it if he had put it that way, with a mention of the Palestinian parents who have far more reason for those kind of fears for their children than their Israeli neighbours. But it's easy to understand why a politician in his situation might feel a need to be extra-cautious in anything he says in this minefield.

I have a feeling that it might not make that much difference to Palestinians who wins this election - and just trust that any of the runners will be better than the present incumbent. Which wouldn't be difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:40 PM

Nasser had sent an emissary to the US because he didn't want to go to war with Israel, and he was seeking a way to avoid it. Talks had been scheduled, but Israel attacked Egypt before the talks could take place. Israel wanted a war, Egypt did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:48 PM

The quotes cited by CarolC are the opinions of individuals, an opinion does not constitute a fact.

Some of them are. And those are the opinions of members of the Israeli military and the Israeli government. However, the announcement made by Israel that it intended to attack Syria and overthrow its government is not an opinion, it is a statement of intent.

If this issue were to go to the world court, with the witness testimonies we have and the words of these members of the Israeli government, as well as quite a lot of declassified Israeli government documents, I think the court would be able to not only convict Israel of war crimes, but it would also rule that Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are illegal (as the UN has already done).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:55 PM

And Egypt demanded the removal of the UN troops because WHY???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:15 PM

For the same reason a cat makes itself look as big as it possibly can when it's being threatened by a dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:43 AM

...it's easy to understand why a politician in his situation might feel a need to be extra-cautious in anything he says in this minefield.
-McGrath of Harlow

I agree that US politicians have to walk minefields with regard to Israeli/Palestinian issues. However, it seems to me that the false rumors that Barack Obama is or was a Muslim adds to the political minefield that he has to walk with regard to Israeli/Palestinian issues. It seems as though any comment Barack Obama makes on those issues will be heavily scrutinized with that rumor in mind. Also, it seems to me that any support Obama receives from Muslims or from Palestinians as well as any contact that Obama himself or persons associated with his campaign have ever had with persons who are Muslim or persons of Arab descent, or persons who are Palestinians has been and will be unfairly used as proof of the false allegations that Obama prefers Muslim people to Jewish people because he is or was a Muslim himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:44 AM

Sorry about my mistake with that bold font commands.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:47 AM

Here's an online article that I think fairly represented comments that Barack Obama made regarding Palestinians:

Obama: Palestinians Matter, Too
posted by Ari Berman on 03/14/2007 @ 09:59am

"Barack Obama did the unthinkable recently: he had the audacity to mention the Palestinians.

"Nobody is suffering more than the Palestinian people," Obama told voters in Iowa on Sunday. That remark hardly endeared him to the hawkish pro-Israel supporters at AIPAC, where Obama (and Hillary) spoke on Monday.

According to the New York Times, Obama and Hillary held dueling receptions to woo Jewish voters. Hillary offered the standard pro-Israel line, even displaying a sign spelling her name in Hebrew (can't imagine Barack translates very well).

In the past, Obama has spoken highly of the Palestinian people and the calamities they've faced. No doubt, his opponents will now try and use that against him"...

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?pid=175173

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:54 AM

Here's another online article that reinforces my theory that Obama's minefield with regard to Israeli/Palestinian politics is more treacherous than most US politicians because he has to debunk the rumors that he is Muslim himself.

Jan 29, 2008 0:19 | Updated Jan 29, 2008 12:08
Obama: Palestinian refugees can't return
By Hillary Leila Krieger and Tovah Lazaroff, Miami; Jerusalem Post

"Palestinian refugees belong in their own state and do not have a "literal" right of return to Israel, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Monday.

"The outlines of any agreement would involve ensuring that Israel remains a Jewish state," Obama told The Jerusalem Post and other members of the Jewish and Israeli press on a conference call. He reiterated his support for a two-state solution, but said, "We cannot move forward until there is some confidence that the Palestinians are able to provide the security apparatus that would prevent constant attacks against Israel from taking place."

His conversation with reporters and his support for the Israeli position on refugees came on the heels of scurrilous charges that Obama is secretly a Muslim who received a radical Wahhabi education.

"There has been a constant and virulent smear campaign via the Internet that has been particularly targeted against the Jewish community," he said. "It is absolutely false. I have never practiced Islam. I was raised by my secular mother, and I have been a member of the Christian religion and an active Christian."

Obama said he wanted to speak personally on the subject so that voters in the Jewish community could hear "from the horse's mouth" that "there is no substance there and that there is a strong and deep commitment and connection to the Jewish community that should not be questioned."

Obama has also recently articulated stances in support of Israel and Jewish issues, including his comments during the conference call, as well as a letter he sent Tuesday urging that America not endorse a UN Security Council resolution on Gaza that doesn't condemn Hamas's rocket attacks on Israel.

"The right of return [to Israel] is something that is not an option in a literal sense," Obama said during the call - though he noted, "The Palestinians have a legitimate concern that a state have a contiguous coherent mass that would allow the state to function effectively."...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1201523779464

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:25 AM

"If this issue were to go to the world court... I think the court would be able to not only convict Israel of war crimes, but it would also rule that Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are illegal (as the UN has already done)."


                   And it doesn't go to the world court, why?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:50 AM

I see that the World Court has already declared that both the apartheid wall and settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal.

Israel has not signed on to the World Court and does not recognize its rulings.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:39 PM

can't imagine Barack translates very well.

It does actually - spelt Baruch. It's the name of a Jewish prophet, and there's a Book of Baruch in the Bible (part of the apocrypha, doesn't get in all versions). Different spelling, same name. Means Blessed, just like Benedict.

Rather fittingly/ironically, in the Eastern Church the Book of Baruch "is considered an extension of the Book of Jeremiah, and is announced in the services as "Jeremiah"...
....................
Yes, Azizi, what you said is what I meant by this being a minefield, with lots of boobytraps set for Obama especially

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:59 PM

"Israel has not signed on to the World Court and does not recognize its rulings."


                     It's interesting that they can avoid confrontation simply by ignoring that justice exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:06 PM

Same with the US. We don't recognize it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:13 PM

Two things are certain:

1.) The next president is going to have to make a major effort to bring some settlement in the Isreali/Palestinian situation and...

2.) Anyone sitting at that negotiation table that doesn't fully undertand that 4,000,000 Palestinains were displaced in 1948 doesn't belong at that table because without that knowledge there can be no settlement...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:20 PM

"that 4,000,000 Palestinains were displaced in 1948"


Since they were not, and you have been informed, I will presume you mean to keep spreading this false number.

"Of the 1,358,000 Palestinian Arab citizens of Palestine in 1948, approximately 873;600 resided within what would become the Israeli borders, 485,000 without. The Israelis recorded 156,000 non-Jews in 1948, a number that included perhaps 1,000 non-Arabs, leaving 155,000 Palestinians in Israel. This means that 718,000 Palestinians either were refugees or died during the war. Note that this number depends on the somewhat imprecise estimation of the numbers who lived on both sides of the border before the war, and so should be taken as a mean estimate."

So your WAG of 4 million is a lot like your other statistics- without merit. THREE times as many as the ENTIRE non-Jewish population??? Or are you saying the other ARAB nations sent a few more along, just to keep them company?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:26 PM

See the other thread, BB... You are wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:33 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:44 PM

Bobert,

I do not think that you are so stupid that you will not realize that a number twice the TOTAL population of Palestine, including Jews, could not be Palestinian Arab Moslim refugees.

Why do you insist that a single person telling a lie is to be believed over common sense, statistics, reality, etc. If this is an example of your numerical skill, I fail to see how you can be taken seriously if you mention numbers, percents, fractions, or any other quantitative measure.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:16 AM

"Anyone sitting at that negotiation table that doesn't fully undertand that 4,000,000 Palestinains were displaced in 1948 doesn't belong at that table because without that knowledge there can be no settlement."

Anybody who doesn't understand that the number of Palestinians displaced in 1948 was approximately 750,000 should do their homework.

Approximately 800,000 Jews were displaced from various Arab countries in the wake of Israel's creation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:33 AM

"Same with the US. We don't recognize it either."


                   That's right! I'd forgotten that. It's funny how these two countries seem to be joined at the hip. A little separation surgery might be in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:47 PM

When people argue about the actual numbers involved in some historic atrocity on this kind of nightmarish scale, it always seems to me they are in danger of missing the point.

Whether it's the Holocaust or the Nakba, this shouldn't be treated as a matter of totting up figures for the Guinness Book of Records. "Only 800,000"... "Only 3 million"... As if in some way coming up with reduced figure made a significant difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:36 PM

The reason the numbers are important is that 3/4 million Palestinian Arabs could have had a nation in 1948. They and their progeny could have been celebrating the 60th anniversary this year, just as the Israelis have.

That nation could have thrived as a under the aegis of (Trans)Jordan, which had been lopped off of Palestine in the 1920s to accommodate the Hashemite sheiks. Having rejected the partition (and thereby a country) they could have lived and thrived in Jordan, but that country, nor all the Arab world refused to take them in, but kept them in camps away from the general populace, in hopes of destroying Israel.

There is no reason even today for Palestinian Arabs to live as refugees. They could have built thriving cities in Gaza and the West Bank (Palestine), but they choose squalor for the masses, and confrontation by the elite with Israel...and even Lebanon.

So the three-quarter million have grown to 3-5 million souls, most of whom are little better off than they were in pre-war Palestine, Jordan or Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:48 PM

...or they could have lived in their place of origin in freedom instead of being forced to flee at the point of a gun.

The Palestinians were under no obligation to agree to being removed from their homes and their land and transported to someone else's land. That is ethnic cleansing. And nobody had a right to force, or even to expect them to agree to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:54 PM

Good point McGrath. One life lost is one too many, especially if it's someone close to you. Wasn't it Stalin who said 'the death of one man is a tragedy, of millions is s statistic'?
And I wonder if anyone who whittles down the number of palestinian refugees could be called a 'Nakba-denier'? (Not that I'm saying millions were forced into exile...)

It is my impression that Israel might be more favourable to a two-state solution given that, as has been noted above on this thread, a single state would leave Jewish Israelis numerically in the minority.

Of course there is a whole other possible debate here on whether any country that boasts western democratic values can set itself up as a mono-ethnic theocracy. Could Ireland, for example, decide that as we had suffered centuries of colonisation (we have the distinction of having been colonised long before even the Carribean and America), apartheid and progroms (the Penal times), genocide by default (1 million dead 1845-9, 1 million forced into exile) and so on (the whole world is wearily familiar with our woes... ;-)) ) ... would it be acceptable for us for our 'secured ongoing existence' to set up a Catholic Ireland where we pressurised all non-Irish-catholics to leave by making things as uncomfortable as possible for them, treating them as second class citizens, colonising Scotland and driving the Scots out, simply helping ourselves to whatever we liked there and building where we liked, on Old McDonald's farm while he watched helplessly from the sidelines, held back from doing anything by our well-armed soldiers... etc.,

I wonder how long we'd get away with it.

I don't think any two-state solution will either be acceptable or work if Israel refuses to demolish its illegal West Bank settlements and withdraw to its 1967 borders. I can't see it doing that in a hurry. It pulled its settlements out of Gaza simply to concentrate them in the West Bank, now crisscrossed by roads on which only Israeli Jews may drive without a permit. Palestinians have different colour licence plates etc., all sounds eerily familiar.

Since Israel seems determined to expand to Jordan's borders at least, perhaps the one-state solution isn't such a bad idea. Of course it would also need to cease being a discriminatory state (verging on apartheid).

Sigh. We'll just have to wait and see, but I reckon it has a better chance of happening under Obama than with Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:59 PM

"They could have built thriving cities in Gaza and the West Bank"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:08 PM

Eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:47 AM

I see that the World Court has already declared that both the apartheid wall and settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal.

Israel has not signed on to the World Court and does not recognize its rulings. (Carol)

It seems to me that you use the same expression for two different institutions.

An attempt to clarify what you have muddled:

The "World Court" that has declared the wall illegal is the "International Court of Justice". All UN members (like Israel) are automatically parties of its statute which has not prevented many countries not to recognise the advisory opinions of the court in the past.

The "World Court" Israel and close to 100 others countries (including the USA) have not signed to yet is the "International Criminal Court".

Both courts BTW are seated in The Hague which makes the confusion understandable.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:57 AM

Just BTW, the countries that voted against the Rome Statute of the International Court were:

Iraq, Israel, Libya, the People's Republic of China, Qatar, the United States, and Yemen.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:59 AM

...the countries that voted against the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court....

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:05 PM

"...the countries that voted against the Rome Statute of the International Court were: Iraq, Israel, Libya, the People's Republic of China, Qatar, the United States, and Yemen."


                   One would think they must have something in common!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Azizi
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:45 PM

Senator Barack Obama gave a speech today to about 700 people the B'nai Torah Synagogue in Boca Raton, Florida today. That speech and the questions & answers period his prepared remarks focused largely on American-Israeli relations.

Here's a link to a video excerpt of that speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7bjP77qdw

Barack Obama Courts Jewish Voters in Boca Raton, FLA; May 22, 2008

**
In addition, see this dailykos diary and comments about that speech:
That diary also includes two other videos of that event:

Obama at the B'nai Torah synagogue (video)
by rontun
Thu May 22, 2008 at 07:07:54 PM PDT
Presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/22/211440/447/854/520869

Here are some comments from another political blog, http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1251 ,about that audience's reaction to Obama:

PalGirl2008, on May 22nd, 2008 at 2:56 pm Said:
outstanding townhall meeting…….
the questions were tough, the answers were brillinat, the intercation between Obama and the audience was awesome.

Franco, on May 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm Said:
I just got 2 text messag. from Jewish friends who were at the town hall just now, they said the energy in the room was unbelievable, and that he won big there, they said the talk before he showed up was not good, but after Wexlers speech and then Obamas answers, they said people all around said,and I quote.."looks like we are in the room with the next president of the United States"

Shavon, on May 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm Said:
PalGirl2008,
This audience was perhaps the most intellectually saavy this primary season yet between ALL the candidates. Really smart, tough questions with brilliant answers to each one.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:54 PM

Obama's speech was first-rate, and I am glad he got to show his actual face to the doubters and fearers and skeptics there.

My sense has always been that the Jewish people who are "afraid of" him are dealing in false pictures of who he is and what he stands for.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:34 AM

According to JTA, the exit polls show Obama took 78% of the Jewish vote despite the scare mongering of the McCain-Palin campaign aimed at the Jewish community.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM

Here is the JYA story.


Jews looked past worries to embrace Obama

By Ron Kampeas

WASHINGTON (JTA) – For some Jewish voters, the strangeness of Barack Obama was like a recurring dream: unsettling and then settling in, and then, suddenly, revelatory.

Ari Wallach described breaking through to elderly Jews in Florida who had resisted voting for the son of the man from Kenya, the tall black man with the middle name "Hussein."

"It wasn't only his policy on Israel and Iran, on health care," said Wallach, whose Jewsvote.org led the "Great Shlep," an effort to prod young adults to get their Jewish grandparents in Florida to vote for Obama. "His biography feels so Jewish, it feels like an Ellis Island archetype. People felt more comfortable when I talked about where he came from, it resonated so deeply—surprisingly among older Jews."

For months, polls showed Obama languishing at about 60 percent of the Jewish vote, a critical chunk short of the 75 percent or so Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) garnered in 2004. But exit polls from the Tuesday election showed Obama matching those results, garnering about 78 percent of the Jewish vote against 22 percent for Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), his Republican rival.

Wallach credited the campaign's late-campaign blitz of Jewish communities, joined by groups like his own, for converting the candidate from stranger to standard bearer for a Jewish ethos.

"It resonated much more than I thought it was going through in these parts of the Jewish community," he said.

It was an uphill battle, starting with rumors that Obama was a hidden Muslim, that he wasn't a genuine, born American. The subterranean campaign soon burst through semi-legitimate and then legitimate forums; Obama was not a Muslim, these conservatives and Republicans said, but he might have been raised a Muslim and later had radical associations.

The Republican Jewish Coalition ran ads coupling critiques on Obama's dovish policies with guilt-by-association jabs at his former pastor who embraced Third World liberation theology, at associates at the University of Chicago and during his early political career who had radical pasts, at advisers who had once delivered sharp critiques of Israel and the pro-Israel community. The negative campaign glossed over Obama's deep ties in the Chicago Jewish community and how he has picked a pre-eminently pro-Israel foreign policy team.

Matt Brooks, the RJC's executive director, said the ads raised legitimate questions about Obama's judgment, and had an effect: Obama was outpolling Kerry among Jews by only about 2 percent, he said, whereas he was doing much better than Kerry had among other constituencies, including Catholics, blacks and Hispanics.

"This is a huge political tsunami that has hit Republicans across the board," Brooks said, referring to the economic crisis that helped precipitate Obama's blowout win on Tuesday.

"It's a testament to McCain that we've done as strongly as we have to hold onto our support," he said, noting that Obama's Jewish results lagged slightly behind showings for Al Gore in 2000, and for Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996.

Brooks said he stood by his group's ad campaign. "There's no reason for regrets," he said. "We had an important and meaningful debate in the community."

Democrats said the overwhelming Jewish rejection of the campaign made them proud.

"I'm ecstatic by the outcome and the confidence the Jewish community showed Obama in the teeth of some of the nastiest campaigning I've ever seen," said Ira Forman, the executive director of the National Jewish Democratic Council. "People got a chance in the last three months to see Barack Obama and the idea that they should be afraid or frightened didn't wash."

Key to the effort were waves of Jewish surrogates—chief among them U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler (D-Fla.)—who blanketed Jewish communities in swing states in the campaign's final weeks. Wexler had been on board with the Obama campaign from the outset. A number of other surrogates who had been loyal to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) added weight to the campaign once she conceded the primaries race over the summer.

"I've never seen a presidential campaign so well-organized in the Jewish community," Forman said, referring to the Obama outreach effort.

"I really think it's the triumph of hope over fear, of possibility over pessimism," said Rabbi Dayle Friedman, a Philadelphia-area rabbi who served as a co-chair of the national Rabbis for Obama.

"My mother-in-law is a Holocaust survivor in her 80s and she said to me this morning, 'He's a good man, I believe in what he said.' "

Friedman, whose rabbinic focus is serving Jewish senior citizens, spent much of her time reaching out to seniors, who were courted heavily, particularly in swing states, by both campaigns.

"Somehow, the integrity and the urgency of the possibility of this candidate spoke to people way more powerfully than all the nasty scare tactics that were thrown at him," she said.

Echoing the view of many of Obama's most ardent supporters, Friedman called the process of the campaign "just as transformative, if not more, than the results, the millions of volunteers that included so many Jews, old and young, who were so passionately engaged."

It remains to be seen whether the concerns Brooks and the RJC pushed forward will eventuate. In his acceptance speech, Obama once again coupled diplomatic outreach with a tough take-all-comers posture.

"A new dawn of American leadership is at hand," he said. "To those who would tear the world down, we will defeat you; to those who seek peace and security, we support you."

J-Street, the liberal pro-Israel lobby that led a campaign to get Jewish newspapers to reject the RJC ads, said it was vindicated.

"Tonight, American Jews resoundingly rejected the two-year, multimillion dollar campaign of baseless smears and fear waged against him by the right wing of our community," J-Street's director, Jeremy Ben-Ami, said in a statement. "Surrogates and right-wing political operatives in our community stopped at nothing in their efforts to sway Jewish voters against Obama. With exit polls showing Barack Obama's share of the Jewish vote equal to 2004 levels, it is absolutely clear that their efforts failed."

Some Democrats said McCain, once popular among Jews because of his willingness to reach across the aisle, hurt himself in the community by choosing the deeply conservative and relatively inexperienced Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate.

An American Jewish Committee poll commissioned in September found that 54 percent of American Jews disapproved of the Palin pick, compared to just 15 percent who disapproved of Obama's decision to tap Sen. Joe Biden (D-Del.).

But Obama's appeal to Jews might have been most deeply rooted in shared values, said Mik Moore, Wallach's partner in JewsVote.org.

"Folks just wanted to be with us, with the more progressive candidate; it's where their heart is," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:01 PM

Well, they didn't win over Joe Lieberman!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:20 AM

2008 ELECTIONS/OP-ED

Why Jews voted for Obama

By Marc Stanley


DALLAS (JTA) -- This year, once again, the Jewish community overwhelmingly supported the Democratic nominee for president. With the election of Barack Obama, Jewish voters selected a candidate who, despite an unprecedented smear campaign, represents the values of our community.

This year, we also heard the all-too-familiar claims that the Republican nominee would receive a record amount of the Jewish vote. Again, however, this prediction came up woefully short.

In every election cycle for the past 36 years, Republicans offered "sky is falling" predictions that Jewish voters would give significant support to the Republican nominee. A typical claim was when President George W. Bush's campaign chairman, Marc Racicot, predicted in 2004 that Bush would garner between 30 and 35 percent of the Jewish vote. Despite the Republicans' history of failed forecasts of the Jewish vote prior to 2004, their delusional claims persisted.

In 2004, the media largely bought into the argument that Bush would receive a significant portion of the Jewish vote. A New Republic piece by Lawrence Kaplan titled "Kerry's Jewish Problem" typefied the media's fascination with the prospect that Sen. John Kerry would receive an unusually small portion of the Jewish vote. The media frenzy led many to give credence to Republican claims about the Jewish vote four years ago.

Despite the Republican theory about Jewish voters, results from Election Day 2004 showed the usual overwhelming Jewish support for Kerry. In fact, since 1972, when exit polls were first instituted, the Republican nominee has averaged only 27 percent of the Jewish vote. In recent elections, the Republican nominee has received even less, with Jewish support at 22 percent for Bush in 2004 and 19 percent in 2000, and 16 percent for Bob Dole in 1996. In 2006, the Jewish support of Democratic congressional candidates reached 87 percent.

Nonetheless, the media remained enticed by persistent Republican claims about the Jewish vote during this election cycle. The endless attempt by the media to report the "man bites dog story" led to news articles such as "Obama's Jewish Problem" (Politico, March 13, 2007) and "Obama's Struggle to Secure the Jewish Vote" (NBC, May 23, 2008). Again, this year's supporters of the Republican nominee and members of the media prematurely reported that John McCain would receive a dramatically increased percentage of Jewish support with Obama as the Democratic nominee.

In the early months of the election campaign, the polls projected Obama would receive about 60 percent of the Jewish community's support. Sensing an opportunity to capture a sizable number of Jewish voters, McCain supporters engaged in an unprecedented campaign in the Jewish community. This campaign not only included efforts to paint Obama as an anti-American Muslim, but it also implied that an Obama presidency could bring a second Holocaust. The campaign was widely criticized and outraged many in the Jewish communities they targeted.

As Election Day drew closer and the Jewish community learned more about the two candidates, polling showed that Obama's support in the Jewish community increased to between 70 and 74 percent. Ultimately the Jewish community supported the Democratic nominee in overwhelming numbers. According to exit polling from Tuesday's election, Obama received 78 percent of the Jewish vote – about 25 percent greater than Obama's percentage of total support nationally. That exceeded everyone's expectations.

There are two reasons for this performance. First, Jewish voters took a very close look at both candidates in the final 10 weeks of the campaign. Obama's performance in the debates belied the GOP narrative that he could not be trusted, while McCain's pick of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate undermined his Jewish support.

Second, Jewish Democrats -- the National Jewish Democratic Council, along with the Obama campaign and other independent efforts -- were better organized than ever.

Every four years, like a broken record, we are subjected to the refrain from Republicans that "this is gong to be the year the Jewish community votes Republican" -- but it never proves true. Somewhat prophetically, Ethan Porter of The New Republic got it right last week when he reported that "the fear that Jews might desert the Democratic Party comes up every four years" but "this theory might finally be put to bed."

Indeed, as it has for the last three decades, the theory that Jewish voters would significantly support the Republican nominee again has been discredited.

(Marc Stanley is the chairman of the National Jewish Democratic Council.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:39 PM

Thanks, C. Ham, for those fascinating articles. I suppose it boils down to the fact that the Jewish community places great value on education. Therefore, being well educated, they can easily recognize propaganda for what it is--and treat it accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:31 PM

In my non-statistical conversations with Jews I drew the conclusions that most Jews voted for Obama because he was a Democrat and a (relative) liberal, and for the fewer who voted against him it was the Rev. Wright issue, and possibly, for some, a fear that he might not be so ardent a supporter of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:41 PM

The AP is reporting that Jane Harman is on his short list for Secretary of Homeland Security!