BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?

Subject: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:01 PM

Well, it has happened again. I was driving in to work at 8:30am and was forced to stop behind a crowd of flag waving dickheads urinating in the middle of the road. Mrs P went out at lunch time on the fringes of Manchester City Centre and was forced to step over the prone bodies of drunken football 'fans' and pools of vomit. That was the good bit. The bad was crowds of beer and whisky swilling idiots forcing her off the pavement with threats and abuse into the path of oncoming traffic. Thank heavens she was unharmed. Where were the police all this time?

"Oh," says the civilian desk operative. "There is no problem really. We have it all under control. Just a few lads having a good time. We have to expect the odd incident in these situations"

Ha!

A few hours later and the Scottish idiots have lost to the Russian idiots. The police have to baton charge the crowds in at least two separate places. People are wandering about with blood pouring from wounds and the cost to the city is horrendous. Why don't we learn. Football hooliganism is endemic.

Sorry guys. Genuine fans and all that. Never any trouble at our ground merchants. Until people realise that football is just a GAME; until they accept that crowd behavior like todays is unacceptable in any walk of life then, as far as I am concerned, the whole damn thing should be banned.

Imagine for one minute that the crowds at Whitby or Fylde Folk festival did one fraction of the damage that these idiots do. Would the festival be back on next year? I think not. But because it is 'the great god football' it's all OK?

Come on you 'genuine fans'. Put a stop to it. Zero tolerance for any bad behavior is the only answer an only you can insist on it.

There. rant over. Feel better now.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:09 PM

Given Greater Manchester Police's record of gratuitous bigoted thuggery, I rather doubt if they *had* to baton charge anyone, and I suspect you have underestimated the number of teams of idiots involved by 50%.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:18 PM

Aye - You are probably right, Jack. It was the police that insisted I could not enter Deansgate tonight - even though I was a law abiding citizen on my way for a quiet pint! But who made them apply that draconian measure? It certainly wasn't anything I did. In the end when I had to leave, dry, for my more familiar Salford watering holes I suppose they did save me from a potential pasting:-( I cannot really blame the police for doing their job in that case. I can blame the horads of drunken idiots that do 'their game' no favours at all though.

Cheers

Dave
(Calming down now after a few pints of good stuff in the Crescent and a glass of Malt by the 'puter:-) )

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 08 - 08:24 PM

Minority?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 14 May 08 - 09:27 PM

Dave, I spoke to my son on the phone tonight in Manchester. He said local landlords couldn't serve enough drink to them today. 30% of those who came down to Manchester today could not have seen the match, they were rat assed by 5.00pm. He said the police on the trains were great at keeping those arriving at bay. He said there was a lot of hustling of travellers at the airport although airport staff said there was no trouble on any of the aircraft.

The police should have enforced a ruling to make central Manchester alcohol free today. There was a lot of trouble around Picadilly when the big screen broke down (the other one was flicking towards the end of the match).

He said the women were worse than the men, running out in front of traffic and pulling their tops up. The amount of alcohol consumed had a lot to do with it, something that needs addressed in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 08 - 09:36 PM

As Jonesy in Dad's Army used to say "They don't like it up 'em..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:02 PM

People are under a lot of stress in modern society. They're frustrated and they feel powerless. The purpose served by your football games is quite similar to the purpose served by the Roman games which involved gladiators, races, men fighting animals, men fighting pitched battles, etc...all that was done to give the mob a catharsis of emotion so they could forget briefly about their worldly problems and blow off some pent-up frustration.

The stupider members of the mob generally find stupider ways of blowing off frustration, and thus riots were fairly common in Rome too. When riots got out of hand in Rome they sent the troops into the streets and killed people by the hundreds or thousands if necessary until they dispersed and got off the streets.

The problem with football games is you have a winner and a loser...and the fans of the losing team tend to lose their tempers because they don't get the positive catharsis they are looking for. That turns their mood ugly. Add alcohol and you've got a really bad scene.

Now you just cannot compare that to a folk festival in any way. It's a completely different phenomenon and it serves a different purpose. It attracts a different audience.

Anyway, don't expect it to end, Dave, because there is way too much money invested in football for them to consider ending it. I wish I could say the same about folk festivals. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:31 AM

I know you can't compare it to a festival, LH. That is part of the point. What I am saying is that in ANY other walk of life, including folk festivals, if 'fans' behaved the way that these louts did then the authorities would be quick to close it down. You are spot on about the money though and I know it is just wishful thinking but don't you just wish that the football industry got the kick up the arse it deserves.

I didn't need to speak to anyone on the phone, Victor. I saw it first hand. These idiots were not rat arsed by 5pm - Some of them were gone by 8:30am and a even larger proportion by lunch time! As to 30% without tickets. Well, an estinated 100,000 rangers fans were in the city along with 9000 Russians. The stadium holds less than 50,000. Work it out.

While I agree that alcohol is part of it I don't know if I agree that a ban on the use of it is the answer. Surely a ban on the abusers rather than the substance is more sensible? Why should I, for instance, a responsible drinker and non-football fan, be stopped from going for a pint in my own home town because a crowd of drunken idiots start behaving like pack animals? It's like saying that because there are muggers out on the streets we should stay at home. Lets get things in perspective here. Compared to the number of people world wide who consumed alcohol yesterday what proportion do you think went on to cause trouble? I can't answer it but I suspect the answer is pretty low.

I ask again, why do people seem to think it is OK because these animals are acting in the name of the great god Football?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:09 AM

As a citizen of Manchester I have to say that I was appalled by yesterday's events. How is it that the authorities of this city can allow it to be virtually shut down, for a couple of days, by thousands of drunken thugs? And all for something as trivial as a football match in which the city's teams were not even involved!

I think that the City Council must bear a lot of the responsibility for yesterday's events for providing TV screens in the City centre. I'm sure that these idiots will rant on about the revenue brought into the city - but I wonder if they've calculated the cost of the disruption?

It pains me to say it but I thoroughly despise football fans - yes, THE MAJORITY of football fans. Mindless, selfish, 'tribal' idiots who have no respect for anyone else and who are all too ready to resort to violence and disorder. When I see football fans getting thrashed by foriegn riot police I feel little sympathy - it's a pity the Manchester Police didn't go in a lot harder last night!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:27 AM

Minority - yes.

But how many does it take?

And how many beers?

At the end of the day Football has to police itself or take the criticism. Or wait for politicians to act - and they will eventually even in the case of football, even though they are frightened shitless of upsetting the bulk of decent fans.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Brakn
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:56 AM

There were a lot of well behaved fans tho...............

The first time I remember Rangers coming to Manchester was in, I think, 1973 for a "Friendly". Everything they didn't break they pissed on. Never had there been that much trouble with any other team for a "Friendly". They were never invited again.

Last time they came to Manchester for a competeive game, every landlord in my area, Altrincham, was advised to close his doors. I was most annoyed; I missed my pint!

I'm not surprised by all this and I wouldn't think that many others are either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:00 AM

I agree with you Dave. This morning the media played it down, they said it was a small number of fans that caused the trouble. From what I saw on the television news it looked like a large number. Sadly a Russian fan was stabbed. It is the clubs that attract their followers, so it's the clubs that should receive the bill from the government for the resources and damage. If you organise a rally or protest, you have to give the police 21 days notice or it is considered an illegal gathering. Clubs must be held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:01 AM

It's not necessarily the alcohol. Football seems to predispose people to aggression and tribalism in a way that, say, rugby league doesn't. I've been to cup finals at (old) Wembley- at least one absolutely cathartic, up for grabs until decided in the last 5 minutes- and afterwards the crowd dispersed without segregation, completely problem free despite many being a few minutes past their bedtime.

I think that the hype is used to whip up the aggression and chauvinism, the easier to relieve supporters of thousands for a season ticket, a Sky Sport subscription, or a crap "replica" shirt.

BTW they're planning big- screen TVs in most major cities for the 2012 Olympics, the better to sell advertising to Olympic sponsors.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:15 AM

You cannot legislate for idiots. This government is particularly guilty of bringing in new laws as the universal panacea to a given problem.
It's education that's needed not legislation, if you are not taught that a thing is wrong, how are you ever going to know, good behaviour is not innate, it's learned.
As for the argument about it bringing revenue to the city; revenue to whom? The publicans and other commercial interests will gain, and the rate payers will pay.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 08 - 07:39 AM

I was saddened by the whole affair. The more I think of it though, the more saddened is turning into sickened. Imagine the cost of policing that debacle. Yet look here for details of how local schoolgirls were told they could not march in protest at the closure of their school because the cost of policing was too high!

Somehow a group over over-paid and over-rated people kicking a bag of wind around for 90 minutes are more important than the education of our children. You are quite right, Giok, education is the key. But while the new religion of football tribalism holds sway over the media and government, they are going to rule us as surely as the Spanish Inquisition did or, more recently, the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

While ordinary people, some just like you and I, think it is perfectly acceptable to intimidate bystanders by chanting tribal slogans walking down the public highways then we will have a problem. Sorry - Not just acceptable according to some TV pundits and the advertising magnets, possitively encouraged! While the players on the pitch think it is OK to dispute every authoratative decision and behave like lunatics when the score a goal then the people watching will also believe it acceptable. While the local and police authirities are willing to turn a blind eye to the kind of carnage we saw yesterday and put it down to 'a few' troublemakers and high spirits then theses things will continue.

Zero tollerance of bad behaviour on and off the pitch. Reinforce what is acceptable to everyone concerened. Educate people to realise that there are people not interested in what team you support. If all that doesn't work then, yes, go ahead and ban drink altogether. I'll see you outside a cafe bar in a more civilised country...:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:27 AM

Dave, you're right and a lot uf us football-lovers who DO behave properly agree wholeheartedly with you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:35 AM

My son who lives in Manchester told me this morning that the pavements are covered in vomit and a mountain of beer cans and fast food wrapping litter the streets.The council has an army of cleaners in the city, including hiring private companies. The street next to his saw almost every wing mirror kicked off parked cars.

Why should rate payers have to foot the bill ?

Landlords, supermarkets, off-licences, fast food outlets and those who organised the venue and sold tickets are walking to banks today with wheel barrows of money, maybe they should foot the bill.

The good news is, Manchester Council has scrapped plans to show the Manchester V Chelsea match on big screens next Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 08 - 09:00 AM

That IS good news, Victor. Pity for the Man U fans who cannot get there - but there are precious few of them in Manchester anyway:-) (United fans will understand that one!) At least it shows that the authorities are taking heed of lessons learned.

There was an altercation with a crowd of young lads breaking mirrors etc. down a street some years ago reported in the local paper. A resident rang the police, only to be informed that they were too busy and could spare no one to investigate. So he rang back and said he was about to shoot some of the lads. When 3 squad cars and 2 vans turned up 2 minutes later he was accused of wasting police time and lying to them. He pointed out that they had lied to him first. The case was dropped when it got to the press:-)

Cheers

dave.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 08 - 09:28 AM

All I can say is...thank God it's not happening where I live!

As Snoopy used to say (hunkered down morosely at the WWI airfield canteen afterhours bar): "How many root beers does it take?"

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Den
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:02 AM

A few good points made above. I think ignorance has quite a bit to do with it. Couple that with a limited education, tribal mentality and copious amounts of booze and voila.

I shall be watching the Champion's league final between Manchester United and Chelsea in the comfort of my home in front of my own TV with a large bottle of Perrier sparkling water and a large bag of Miss Vickie's Jalapeno chips. Come on you reds.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:37 AM

I am looking forward to our Gaelic football championship which begins on Sunday, no segregation of supporters, a little booze, no crowd trouble, there will be attendances of upwards to 80,000 in Croke Park as the games get under way, and no rioting after the match.
Entertainment plus, how the soccer officials envy us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:51 AM

Wish I was watching The original reds tonight. There will certainly be a big difference in the crowds behavior. Unfortunately I have promised Mrs P to meet her in Marks and Sparks to but new undies for our US trip. Oh joy...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:45 PM

Now Dave when a guy goes buying underwear with a lady it sounds a little suspect !!

I have to work from memory these days !

Enjoy the trip.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Den
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:03 PM

Don't those fella's play with odd shaped balls though Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:59 PM

Quite why some sports have a culture of violence among supporters and others don't is a puzzle.

I was watching a Gaelic football game (West Meath and Longford) on the box the other day, and it struck me looking at the crowd how the supporters of both teams were mixed up in the stands, as the most natural thing in the world.

And then turned to see the Rangers/Zenit match - total segregation. Massed blue army of Rangers fans all round the ground, and a relatively tiny patch of Zenit fans in white, with the occasional Celtic shirt in the middle.

Which came first - the segregation of fans or the culture of violence? I have a suspicion that the segregation has played a major part in building this kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:52 PM

Segregation I think followed fighting in the terraces in the early seventies. As I recall there were reports in the media to separate fans to either side of the grounds with colour coded tickets. Fighting occurred outside grounds in those days which seems to have died off due to good marshalling and police numbers these days.

Sad really when two tribes clash. One solution would be for judges to hand out longer sentences. I doubt many judges are affected by gangs of thugs outside their homes.

I am sick sore and tired of reading in the local papers how some thug was drunk at the time he blinded someone or put a bottle through a car windscreen. Solicitors enter this as a plea for mercy day and daily. Often judges accept the plea and tell the thug to control his drinking.

Did some hold them down and pour it down their throats ?

I firmly believe some judges live in total isolation unaware what goes on in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:25 PM

When two tribes go to war...

Could be a song in there somewhere:-)

I think segregation played it's part as well. Reinforced the 'us and them' way of thinking.

Anyone see the reports on TV tonight? Got up my nose once again. 'How good that only 40 people were arrested in crowds of 150,000.' Sorry, but that is NOT good. It is crap policing. They should have arrested at least 100 times that many. We watched as a crowd of 200 or more chased police until one poor contstable fell, at which point thy set on him like a pack of dogs. He is lucky to be alive.

We heard fans who were 'not involved' blaming heavy handed police and showing us the bruises, while still carrying half a crate of beer. We heard how the police 'antagonised' the crowd, while that same crowd were turning over cars with innocent people still inside them!

Reporters say that only a handful were violent. OK. Maybe they were, but the majority - and I will stand by that - were drunk and either incapable or disorderly. Both crimes in their own right. Why were they not arrested? Why were the ones urinating in our streets not arrested for public decency offences? Why were those depositing cans, bottles, vomit and excrement on our streets not forced to clean it up? Because everyone is frightened of offending the new god, football and his high priest commercial sponsership. That is why.

Tell you what, Ard and Den in particular, I have on occasions tried to defend the troubles over here by saying yours were worse, but no more. These people are nothing but filth and I want nothing to do with them. I am still proud of my English (Polish, Russian and 57 other varieties) heritage but it is as far removed from these wankers as Watneys red Barrel is from beer!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:33 PM

I once lived near the White City ground.

And all the most enthusiastic association football players and followers at school were among the mindless mouth-breathers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:38 PM

BTW - Bought one pack of trolleys and got another 1/2 price. 6 Pairs of M&S boxers for a tenner! Not bad to me:-)

How did the real reds go on? Read on...

MATCH REPORT

Salford City Reds 24-22 Celtic Crusaders
The Willows, Salford
Thursday 15 May 2008, 7.30pm
National League 1 - Round 7

The Reds just had enough to scrape past a gutsy Celtic Crusaders side who have already shocked Halifax and Widnes this season. Despite cruising into an early 0-12 lead, the Crusaders were eventually pegged back by Salford who grabbed the points courtesy of two long-range Paul White tries.

Tempers flared towards the end and a brawl erupted that led to Reds' Captain Malcolm Alker heading to the sin-bin and the incident put on report, but the Reds had enough to hang on and take all three points on offer.

Preparation had been affected with the loss of influential Aussie prop Craif Stapleton who has had to dash back to Australia due to a family bereavement and that gave young Adam Sidlow a chance to make his mark which he took gleefully with a sprightly performance showing he was always keen to offload.

If White's pace turned out to be the difference mentions should be given to Paul Highton and Stuart Littler, scoring his 98th try for the club, as well as a monumental performance for Phillip Leuluai at prop.

Does anyone else find the 'sin bin' bit significant? Imagine Renaldo or Rooney going for a quiet sit down in the corner on the refs say so?

Me neither.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:29 AM

Dave and all of the others, in fairness, has anyone ever seen, heard of, or read of a riot during or after a Rugby Union or League game?, I put all I have on a no answer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:35 AM

Warrington, when it was in Lancashire, used to have a reputation for intimidation of visiting fans, and it was considered wise to hide your scarf and hat unless you were in a group. It's just as bad these days, but they don't need the provocation of opposition to knife you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:39 AM

Ha! I win! Hand over everything you've got ard mhacha, you didn't say it had to be UK!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:42 AM

Did you ever nip out of De la Salle for a Salford game at the Willows, Paul? Or down to the Weaste Hotel for a pint, once you got your black blazer? :-) Mind you - I was a bit after your time. Did they even has a 6th form common room where you could smoke then?

I must say I am quite surprised at that find of yours. I would have hazarded a guess at the same answer as ard mhacha. I think in fairness we do need to find out why, generaly, Rugby fans are better behaved. Perhaps football could learn something from it but is you compare the ammount of money in each sport I think the footy hierarchy would just laugh:-(

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:56 AM

In my day, rugby games were always 3 o'clock on a Saturday afternoon- no floodlights back then! We didn't go to the Weaste, it was in the wrong direction, but we went to the Brit (just into Pendlebury from Irlam's o'th'Height) if we got out early enough. Gave me time to shed the blazer as we passed home on the way. And I didn't smoke till later, I was a good well behaved Catholic boy.

As for riots, Aussies will do anything. But I think the problems may be to do with the size of the crowds. It's hard to get really worked up when there's only 800 of you (like sometimes when Salford were on a low). But when there's 20 or 30 thousand, people can get subsumed in the crowd- like when St. Cyril egged on a crowd to kill the mathematician Hypatia in Alexandria- they scaped her to death with scallop shells...

which makes rugby league look a bit tame...

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Den
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:25 AM

I hate generalizations but...I think your average rugby fan is more of a thinking man than your average football fan.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:25 AM

Yes Paul I must admit our papers have been full of the riots at Warrington, the old`Wires` were a bad lot, are you kidding, there is not a minute comparison between the followers of both Rugby codes and the mobs of yobs that follow soccer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:26 PM

A few weeks ago my son, a Bristol fan and I, a Gloucester fan attended a local derby game in Bristol. We had a few pints in a local pub, landlorded incidentally by a Munster fan (he was serving bar in his Munster shirt) both sets of fans happy to be drinking together. We strolled to the match, still with opposing fans and on entering the stadium, collected a pint of beer each and took our seats. It happened that where we were sat, I was surrounded by Bristol fans, although looking around the ground, there had obviously been no attempt to deliberately segregate the fans. I did not feel atall intimidated, I was neither verbally or physically abused and at the end of the match cogratulations and commiserations were exchanged to the accompaniment of hand shakes.
As we left the ground, I can't remember noticing any police officers,although I suppose there must have been some. In spite of this and the fact that a lot of alchohol had been consumed both in and out of the ground, nobody was leggless, there was no abuse being exchanged, no damage to property, nobody was stabbed or got their head kicked in.......... But then this was a Rugby Football match.

Had a match been staged under similar circumstaces between two local Association Football teams it would have been a recipe for disaster.

I'm afraid the scenes shown on the TV are not new, this sort of disgraceful behaviour has been going on for years, and it adds insult to injury that the tax payer should have to continue to pick the bill. When it comes to the finance of the game, the only winners would appear to be the football clubs and their playing staff. It should be them then that should be made to pay for every penny of policing, cleaning up, reparation of damage etc. Some of these clubs are rich beyond imagination, and yet public money is spent on this, at the same time services are being cut because of shortage of funds. I appreciate that not all clubs are wealthy, some of the smaller clubs are struggling financially, and maybe those where crowd trouble is rare. What I would propose then is that clubs fund this aspect of the game, and it clearly IS an aspect of the game of Association Football, with a payment made by the clubs at the start of each season and ring-fenced solely for this purpose. Each club's contribution should be calculated on their ability to pay, and the cost associated with each team's games during the preceding season. Failure to pay should prevent teams from staging games, perhaps then, the football clubs and football authorities might pull out ALL the stops to find solutions to this problem.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:54 PM

I seem to remember one time that St Helens supporters chased Eddy Waring down Knowsley Road when they got to hear of some adverse comments he had made about their team.

not a riot, but then they didn't catch him.......

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:21 PM

Poor Eddie he must have been the worst commentator of all time, I would suggest that the Saints fans were doing us all a favour.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:30 PM

I have been looking at the You Tube videos of the Manchester riots, I am sure the few decent Rangers fans after viewing the mayhem of Manchester will be asking themselves, how can I be associated with this vermin.
It is the modern Dantes inferno, almost incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:19 PM

Yeah ... you can't compare it to a folk festival ...

.. but you can compare it to a rugby match, a cricket match, aussie rules, ice hockey, basket ball, tennis, base ball, american football, rugby league, the olympics, squash, golf, gaelic football, hurling, Kabadi, etc etc etc etc ...

There is no justification for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:57 PM

Association football seems to be the sport with the association with cropwd violence in many countries(maybe that's another reason for the name). Basically, wherever you live, if its crowd violence you are after, that's the sport to follow.

It's been suggested that this has some tie-in with the fact that, compared with Rugby or American Football or Australian Rules, there isn't so much overt physical violence on the pitch itself, so some of the fans feel a need to make up for that.

I suspect it's more a case of a copycat process - a meme for crowd violence that has become linked with football in a random way.

And more worryingly, it has mutated, so that the real problem now isn't crowd violence, it's violence in city centres linked with people watching in pubs or on public screens.

And daft thing is, of course, no need for a pub to have any kind of licence to show dangerous stuff like football matches on their screens, but they have to have one if anybody wants to make music...

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:32 PM

Nothing tribal about the Rangers supporters.
They are proud supporters of the Union to a man!
These same thugs who tore Manchester apart, will villify Alex Salmond for wishing to "rip Scotland from the womb of the UK"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:06 PM

Darn shame you don't have Don Cherry over there to spice things up for you. He's a Canadian hockey commentator with very unusual tastes in clothing and a personal style which simply must be seen to be fully appreciated. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:54 AM

Blimey, ake - I never know that. Funny thing is I saw more Union flags being waved last Weds than I have ever seen before - If you are right in your assesment that explains why.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:00 AM

Aye Dave....Its all bound up in Religious sectarianism.
Queen and country...protestant UK
Pope and republicanism....historically Catholic.

They're all stone mad, but there are millions of them. It has held back the Nationalist cause in Scotland for a century.
Sectarianism and religious bigotry was openly encouraged by Rangers Football Club in the fifties and sixties...They even produced records of sectarian songs, performed by the team...

Bigotry still hangs over Rangers and their supporters like a bad smell.
The Scottish disease!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: alanabit
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:44 AM

Bigotry and this local rivalry stuff can often play a part. However, I think the reason football violence takes place is quite simply that some young men feel the need to go out and fight. They don't even particularly dislike each other; they just obtain a great deal of exhilaration and pleasure from fighting. As association football is the main sport in many countries, it has attracted more of these young men than other sports.
I remember my Uncle Gerald telling me that when he was a youngster, the local lads would meet up with the lads from other villages at the weekends for a punch up. They did not hate each other; they just had nothing better to do.
I don't know what the answer is. However, I am fairly sure that the phenomenon of young men fighting each other as a pastime is not a new one. I just wish the sods would not tarnish the image of my favourite sport with it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:03 AM

I am surprised that Dave never knew of the sectarianism associated with the Rangers club, from the foundation of the club they refused to play a Catholic until new Manager Graham Souness came along in the late 1970s and signed Maurice Johnson a Catholic.
Many Rangers fans at that time vowed they would never support the club again, Johnson must have been a brave man, he should have been in line for a VC.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:55 AM

Wouldn't it be possible for FIFA or the FA to dock the football club points if their fans were found guilty of misbehaving? I used to work with a self confessed football hooligan . He was first and foremost a dedicated fan of his club ,West Ham , who used to follow them around everywhere - that was back in the seventies. The papers used to say at the time that football hooligans were only interested in violence and were not real fans and that the real fans should stand up to them .As somebody who was never that much bothered by the game I sort of agreed with that. But my co-worker convinced me that that wasn't the case.He regularly used to come to work on a Monday morning (if he wasn't appearing in court )covered in bruises and black eyes of which he seemed proud , and he always insisted that the hooligans were the most loyal fans in all football clubs and that what the papers said about them was a load of tosh .
I really think that the only thing that would have made him moderate his behaviour would have been the thought of seeing West Ham drop a couple of places in the league table.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:08 AM

My parents are in their 70s and they go regularly to watch Norwich (where they have season tickets) play football. They would not be doing so if the feared even less trouble than described here.

Yes, there is something about the mentality of certain football fans. Yes there are issues that need sorting, etc. But I do think it is a minority of idiots.

A trouble is though, if only 1/1000 of football supporters were idiots, there would still be a lot of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:27 AM

Sectarianism isn't just a vice enjoyed by the great unwashed. Many highly educated people have powers of cerebration that seem to cut off when they see people of another religion.

Not just in the Christian church either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:19 PM

Surprising it may be, ard mhacha, but true all the same. I did not know that football sectarianism was still an issue. At one time the teams around these parts were Catholic (United) and Protestant (City) as well, but that died a death many years ago. How come this attitude still exists in a town that speaks (nearly) the same language, shares the same island and is only 220 miles away? I cannot belive that last Wednesdays debacle was a result of sectarian hatred but I am, as always, willing to learn!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Berchie
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:28 PM

Just as we thought Britain's notorious football hooligans had faded into the background they appeared this week in Manchester, it appears the next generation is once again earning the country a dubious reputation in Europe.Some example for those heading to Russia this week.

For years, Britain struggled with its reputation as the hooligan capital of Europe, home to the continent's most violent football fans. Images of aggressive skin-heads unleashed across Europe's cities during the nineties were hard to erase. Britain had somewhat restored its gentlemanly reputation only to recently find itself at the top of an equally undesirable league table.

Recent studies show that while Britain ranks well in standard of living among its European neighbours, it also excels in teenage anti-social behaviour and drug abuse.

The latest pan-European figures, published last week, show that Britain tops the list for cocaine and cannabis use, with over eight percent of the population admitting to cocaine use, and 34 percent admitting to cannabis use.

The study follows research published last month that found Britain has the worst-behaved teenagers in Europe. The research was carried out by the Institute for Public Policy Research. It found the United Kingdom was at or near the top of every indicator of questionable behaviour, drugs, drink, violence,child abuse,child abduction and sexual promiscuity.

The public think-tank compared the results with research into family life and behaviour across Europe, concluding that the U.K.'s poor record could be explained by a collapse in family and community life. In general, according to the study, teenagers in other European countries sit down much more frequently to family meals,attend church with their parents, go on holiday with their parents and spend considerably more time in general with their family.

In Britain, they spend more time out with their mates wrecking our streets and property and throwing up and pissing in our gardens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:36 PM

'spend considerably more time in general with their family. '

yeh particularly in the cellars....

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Be very careful Berchie in this Site a year ago I was bombarded with English `cats telling me I was talking rubbish about teenage mobs taking over the towns at week-ends, it didn`t matter that I included Irish towns in the same light,society is going downhill at an amazing rate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:24 PM

and don't forget Scottish yobs taking over English towns!

I think you are right about society going downhill, ard mhacha, but I still believe, well maybe hope is more correct, that the majority of teenagers are OK. Remember that it was once the end of society as we know it when cinema seats were torn out to the tune of Bill Haleys 'Rock around the Clock'. It wasn't. I think (again maybe hope?) we will weather this storm as well.

While I have no doubt of the validity of the study, Berchie, I am a little suspicious of some of the findings. Can you tell us who did this study and give us a URL to link to? I am particularly concerened about the phrase attend church with their parents. Do they attend the same churches that have caused the years of hatred in football clubs described by ard mhacha? Maybe hooliganism would be stopped altogether if all teeneagers attended church more often. Just like those nice young men promised entry into heaven if they just...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:24 PM

well maybe Ard, but look at it another way.

More of us are having a better standard of living. More opportuniies for education, more people getting to travel and communicate with the outside world, houses are more comfortable and cars go longer without breaking down.

There have been some advances in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:26 PM

BTW - I didn't spot many teenagers in last Wednesdays fiasco. Maybe they were the parents of the teenagers in the study?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:51 PM

One thing - there won't be too many fans from the UK livening up events in Euro 2008 next month.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Ziggy
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:07 PM

Hey Dave don't be nasty about people going to church. Church attendance is a big thing for families in Continental Europe. Not all church goers are fanatics either, it en't always about C4 & Virgins.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:21 PM

C4?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Ziggy
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:29 PM

Sorry, C4 is an explosive. It kinda consolidates into a rubbery plasticised mass which may be kneaded and pressed into any shape. It's adhesive and can be stretched into long strands without any breakage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:44 AM

Sorry Ziggy and my apologies to all those good church-goers out there who do not indulge in nefarious activities. It was not my intention to offend you. WLD had already made the point that family life was not the panacea for all evils and referenced the recent events in Austria. I did the same with church-going. I was doubting the as yet unsubstantiated claimes made by Berchies survey. I am not doubting Berchie either - just asking for links to a survey that claims -

"The public think-tank compared the results with research into family life and behaviour across Europe, concluding that the U.K.'s poor record could be explained by a collapse in family and community life. In general, according to the study, teenagers in other European countries sit down much more frequently to family meals,attend church with their parents, go on holiday with their parents and spend considerably more time in general with their family. "

Unfortunately there are well documented flaws with both family life and religion and I do not beleive a return to the days when the stern father and mother church ruled everyones life will cure the worlds ills. It is education and respect for other people that count. A survey that discounts these items, or someone who purposely ignores them in favour of family values and religion gives me cause for suspision.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:21 AM

The following awards were given after the dams raid in 1944:
VC - Victoria Cross
DSO - Distinuished Service Order
CGM - Conspicuous Gallantry Medal
DFC - Distinguished Flying Cross
BAR DFC - Bar to Distinguished Flying Cross
DFM - Distinguished Flying Medal
BAR DFM - Bar to Distinguished Flying Medal
CBE - Commander to the British Empire
KCB - Knight Commander of Bath

Many brave young men who knew that chances of return from this and other raids was small.

Now - these footbaw hooligan scum, what should they be awarded? Order of the Wanker perhaps??

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:01 PM

The distinction between "brave young men" and "mindless hooligans" is likely to be largely a matter of the situation they find themselves in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:02 PM

Wise words, McG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:58 PM

Maybe another war is the answer then :-S

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:18 PM

BTW - If anyone has any doubt as to my proximity to these violent days please see the 'second shooting' headline. The picture is at the top of King Street. Walk down King Street for 100 yards. Turn left, Walk another hundred and knock on my door!

Must say, my two nearest pubs (by about 50 yards) are the Dog and the Welly, on the opposite corner of King Street - Don't like either. The Waggon and the Red Lion are both far better - and safer!

Ard Mhacha - I am getting to know how it feels to live with that sort of violince. It's not good is it:-(

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:51 AM

Well Dave if you care to go back through the old Threads on this subject you will find that ALL of the English `catters told me I was wrong and that their streets were safe.
The streets of England Ireland Scotland and Wales are taken over at weekends by young drunken scum, that is a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:45 AM

Ard Mhacha, I think that the sensationalist terms that 'streets are taken over by drunken scum' can be misinterpreted as the 'fact' that everywhere in the UK is taken over. I certainly agree that there are places I would not venture anywhere near after 6pm on a Friday or Saturday, some even earlier, but there are an equal, if not greater, number of places that I would feel safe in.

It is a question of the degree and ratio of safe and unsafe places. I do not beleive it is true for one minute that everywhere in the UK (Or world if it comes to that!) is safe to wander around in but nor do I believe that around every street corner there is a rampaging crowd waiting to tear you limb from limb. I am not prepeared to say what the proportion is because I do not know! All I can say is that in my experience there are sections of our city centres that I would steer clear of but there are alo a great number of places I would be happy taking anyone to at any time of day or night.

Sorry if I ever gave the impression that I was disagreeing with the principle that things are bad. I think they are and I believe things are getting worse. My main contention, in the earlier thread you mention, is that things are not as bad as your above stated 'fact'.

To say "The streets of England Ireland Scotland and Wales are taken over at weekends by young drunken scum" to my mind implies that EVERY street in etc. is taken over. The addition of "Some of" at the begining of the statement would indeed turn your statement into an indisputable fact.

You may see from other posts that I intensely dislike sensationalist news and the tactics of the gutter press. All I ask is that when facts are quoted then the actual facts should be established. How many streets? How many nights? Where is unsafe? Where is? If you are indeed saying that 100% of the streets in the UK are unsafe then I will be both both surprised and prepared to continue contesting the point elsewhere. If, on the other hand, you mean that there are some very bad areas of the UK, I am more than happy to agree. Can we compromise and say that an increasing proportion of our streets are becoming unsafe?

Cheers

Dave

PS - You have made me think what the arbitrary figure is before I leave:-) I think if it gets above 50% my bags will be packed!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:12 AM

Ard, the inference that every street in every town in England, Scotland and Wales is taken over at weekends by drunken scum is as ridiculous as the assertion on here that every English football fan is a vile, drunken lout hell-bent on violence.

It's simply not true. Typical Sun-Speak.

What is true is that *some* streets in *some* towns are taken over, just as *some* football fans are vile, drunken louts hell-bent on violence.

And yes, in both cases, it's a small minority, and they're the ones the media like to tell us about. There's no circulation mileage in reporting that the streets of (insert your choice of town here) were quiet and peaceful at 11 pm on Saturday, or that 49,950 of the 50,000 attendees at a football match dispersed quietly to partake of tea and cakes and watch TV in their homes after the match.

You're an intelligent and articulate guy Ard, why demean yourself by becoming The Sun Personified? :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:09 AM

I'm an ardent Ard fan also. his website is quite brilliant with some wonderful music on it!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:09 AM

Don't overplay it though, Backwoodsman. Rose tinted specs are as bad as Sun headlines and, understandably, it is what Ard Mhacha felt he was faced with earlier. There are undoubtably problems and the problems are still caused by the minority. However that minority is still very large. There are 60 million people in this county. If just 1% of them are hooligans, football or otherwise, then that is still 600,000 thugs wandering about. And I think the figure is considerably higher just based on personal experience. Out of the potential 100 people I know there are considerably more than one whoi are capable of becomig thugs - If not so already. Not friends, I am glad to say, but certainly people of my aquaintance.

There is also the intangible area of intimidation. A crowd of young men wandering down the pavement shouting loudly may not be breaking the law but they will certainly make my wife or my mother or umpteen other people cross over the road. There are degrees of unaccepable behaviour that do not make it to the papers. In fact - the press seem to think of them as acceptable like I said earlier.

Anyway, like I said before I am not going to argue when all it boils down to is degrees of what is wrong. We are agreed that there is something wrong and that something is somewhere between the Sun headline and the rosy tint!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:10 AM

Hey - cross posted ther WLD - give us a URL.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:30 AM

WLD,I am modest enough to admit that my You Tube Site is brilliant,and the reason, I am not singing or playing on it, and it is safer than a walk through the town on a week-end.

Dave, regarding Birchie`s sources, the figures were given on the BBC News within the past two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:58 AM

Wee-e-e-ll, I know where you're coming from Dave, but I really don't have the kind of specs you seem to think I have. I'm very aware of the growth of The Culture of Loutishness, but I don't like the grandiose, broad-brush, sweeping generalisations that we've seen on this thread. I agree that the minority seems to be growing, but there's still a pretty large majority of decent people around, some of whom (me included) like to go to a football match, and who know how to conduct themselves in public in a civilised manner.

All football-thugs are people - true enough. But that doesn't make all football-people thugs, not by a long shot.

And I'd guess that you and I know roughly an equivalent number of people, maybe 100, and a fair number are followers of one football team or another. But I don't know anyone who's a football thug.

I'm not attempting to play the Manchester happenings down at all, it was a dreadful day and I agree something needs to be done, but it's an absolute fact that being a football fan doesn't automatically make someone a thug. Pretty much the same as enjoying folk music doesn't automatically make someone a boring, aran-sweater-wearing, real-ale-swilling, finger-in-ear-sticking old fart! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:05 AM

Thanks Ard Mhacha - But I am not doubting the validity of the figures I am questioning the conclusions that a return to family values and religion will make things better. I believe that to be a very poor and naive conclusion to draw.

I can find plenty of reference to the Nov 2006 survey (It's well over a year - doesn't time fly!) but I cannot find the new one. If you get chance can you post the URL (Along with the one for your site:-) ) I would love to see who has come up with the conclusions mentioned. Can you also clear up my other question about the degree to which the UK's streets are unsafe?

Cheers and thanks again

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:12 AM

Pretty much the same as enjoying folk music doesn't automatically make someone a boring, aran-sweater-wearing, real-ale-swilling, finger-in-ear-sticking old fart! :-)

I don't remember meeting you, Backwoodsman - How do you know me so well? :-)

I think we are agreed - There is a problem. And I think we agree that generalisations don't help. But unless something is done it could get worse. In terms of statistics (don't you just love 'em) If out of your 100 there are no hooligans and if in mine there are 2 we have arrived at our average of 1% :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:57 AM

That was me I was talking about there Dave! LOL!

I agree that we agree. But how in the name of hell will it be put right? My personal solution would be to re-introduce National Service, work the young buggers until there's no strength left in them for their antics, and let them work their aggression out in a structured and controlled environment (and they'd have some self-respect driven into them too), but I can very well understand that the armed forces almost certainly wouldn't want them. I suppose my above view will have the PC-brigade howling at me now!

It's a tough one, and I feel for the people in Manchester who had to deal with the situation they found themselves thrown into through no fault of their own. I had a situation on a train with some very drunk Doncaster Rovers supporters last year, and they scared me and Mrs. Backwoodsman shitless. Manchester must have been like your worst nightmare.

All the best.
J

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:17 PM

Dave I don`t remember mentioning anything about returning to religion and family values,although I see lots of single mothers here and they leave their child with his grandparents to look after, while the mother returns to her binge drinking and house parties.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Maybe I need to rewind:-) I don't think you did mention such a thing Ard Mhacha - But Berchie did. I am led to beleive that there are now two seperate surveys - One in November 2006 which sparked off the original discussion you are refering to and a recent one that says, and I quote Berchie here -

The public think-tank compared the results with research into family life and behaviour across Europe, concluding that the U.K.'s poor record could be explained by a collapse in family and community life. In general, according to the study, teenagers in other European countries sit down much more frequently to family meals,attend church with their parents, go on holiday with their parents and spend considerably more time in general with their family.

I have, as yet, been unsucessful in finding this recent survey. As you state that "the figures were given on the BBC News within the past two weeks" I guess you must have seen it and I wondered if you could help me find it?

I have no argument with anyone at all that says we have an unacceptable level of hooliganism in both football and elsewhere. I do dispute that it is on every street in the UK and I do doubt that a serious survey would conclude the unacceptable levels stem from people not going to church!

I too love the collection of you tube videos that you have btw. I'm a bit confused what your name is now but I'll get my old folky-fogey brain round it eventualy:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:32 PM

Believe me it was on the BBC News.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:40 PM

I'm not doubting it Ard Mhacha - Just asking for help - Honest! I have searched the BBC web site and can only find the 2006 one:-(

BTW - I have PM'd you for a favour on another matter - Dunno if you check your PMs often. I won't be in the rest of the night and there is no rush anyway but if you can have a look sometime I would be grateful.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:02 PM

well on reflection, I think Ard's got the right idea.

String the youg buggers up by the balls! six of the best and a red hot poker up the roozle!

The streets would once more be a place you'd feel safe to take your maiden aunt, and there would be no more untowardness and and very little unecessariness.

The sooner we get the flagellation squads signed up, and policemen aren't scared to give people with a baseball cap a clip round both ears just in case. the sooner we will notice an improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:38 PM

Well I hope my suggestion held the hope of Redemption, wld. Not sure that six of the best and a red hot poker up the roozle does though! :-) :-)

However, I volunteer to be the red-hot poker monitor.........

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:19 PM

Just back from seeing John Kelly - Who was wonderful.

The only question that springs to mind in my beer enhanced awareness is, what shaped balls should these louts be hung by?

Maybe it's time I went to bed...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:13 PM

Redemption... you're quite right. If they repeat offend, and they grow blase about red hot pokers......ten years listening to The Watersons sing Three Score and Ten on a tape loop. Something lugubrious, and seminally miserable. that'd show 'em.

You know what Tony said, tough on folkmusic and the causes of folkmusic..

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Christian Catter
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:30 PM

Dave, Children that grow up with Christ in their life from an early age tend to know the difference between right and wrong. Parental responsibly and guidance is what is lacking in modern society. We owe it to our children to give them a guided start in life. I agree with the findings of this report (Guardian May 2008)and feel church attendance as a family has a positive effect. Regretfully church attendance and congregations are dwindling in this country.

Clearly Mr. Polshaw your fixation with the findings of the report regarding worship as a family leads me to believe you are an unbeliever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:30 PM

Reviving National Service might have all kinds of consequences, good or bad, but the idea that it would eliminate street violence is not one of them. Off-duty squaddies, as has been demonstrated time and time again, are just as capable of this kind of stuff as their civilian comtenporaries, and a lot more effective at it. As Kipling wrote "single men in barracks don't grow into plaster saints".

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:05 AM

Of course Dave's an unbeliever- but at least he's a CATHOLIC unbeliever. He knows that Christians know the difference between right and wrong- when a Christian does something, that makes it right. And McG is right too- revive National Socialism to give the hooligans a purpose in life. A cadet death squad in every school!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:07 AM

single men in barracks don't grow into plaster saints".

few of us do.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:13 AM

Aye McGrath knows his onions all right!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:22 AM

You know that perfect example you occasionaly find? The one gem you did not believe really existed? Well, whenever anyone asks you for an example of irony try this one -

On a thread about riots involving a notoriously sectarian organisation someone comes out with the quote "Children that grow up with Christ in their life from an early age tend to know the difference between right and wrong". You couldn't make it up could you:-) I guess all those unionist, hardened C of E, Rangers fans know right from wrong but still did it anyway? Thanks Christian Catter, you're a star.

BTW - I have gone through every quote that Berchie gave us. On the Guardian home page, The BBC and Google and I still cannot find it! Maybe I need divine intervention? Can someone help - Please!

As to me not being a believer. You would be surprised what I believe in. That being a Christian autmaticaly makes you a good person is not one of them. I also call to question the assertion that attendances at religious services are dropping. This 2005 survey in Christianity Today seems to indicate that while Christian attendances are down, the attendances at Mosques double the overall figues. Or do you perhaps not count Mosques in your definition of a church?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:43 AM

Not quite Dave, the one thing they are less likely to be than Catholic is C of E... cos they're Scottish. They could be Associated Presbyterians, Baptists, Church of Scotland, Free Church of Scotland, Free Church of Scotland (Continuing), Free Presbyterians Wee Frees) or Scottish Episcopalians just to mention a few, but not C of E, who I understand automatically get a (wee?) free transfer to C of S when they cross the border.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:11 AM

Ahhhhh - Yep. Gotcha. I was using C of E incorrectly instead of Protestant. Well spotted. My eyes were still full of tears...:-)

Instead of unionist, hardened C of E, Rangers fans Please substitute "unionist, hardened Protestant, Rangers fans". Thanks Paul.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:42 AM

'Children that grow up with Christ in their life from an early age tend to know the difference between right and wrong'

yeh and so do rioting soccer fans who get a red hot poker up the roozle.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:40 PM

Dave - What makes you think any of these "unionist, hardened Protestant, Rangers fans" are church-going, or would claim to "have Christ in their life"? The fact that they may self-identify as ("hardened") Protestants says little about their actual religious beliefs and practices. I would imagine that for many being "Protestant" (hardened or otherwise) is more a matter of cultural than religious identity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:16 PM

That's very true, meself. Just like many people say they are one religion or another when it is very obvious that religious values play very little part in their lives. I am sure that Toquemada was hailed as the savior of Christianity in his day and that the Taliban in Afghanistan all attend daily prayers. But in both cases neither religious identity or practice make then particularly good people. I am not being anti-religious here, honestly. Just suspisious of someone who can draw the conclusion that regular attendance at church services will help stem the flow of hooliganism. WLDs red hot poker makes more sense:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:34 AM

Oh bugger, it's THAT answer again. Whenever you point out to believers of any sort that other people of the same nominal belief behave like arseholes (angeli non sunt, sed ani), they shoot back "Ah, but theyre not real xyzists!" If you don't want the tag, don't wear the label. Accept that people take out of a belief system at most what they bring into it- usually less, because of the football crowd effect, which applies to ALL groups, not just Rangers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Stu
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:01 AM

10o

Back of the net!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Stu
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:01 AM

Bum. I meant 100.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,metoo
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:34 AM

Whenever you point out to believers of any sort that other people of the same nominal belief behave like arseholes (angeli non sunt, sed ani), they shoot back "Ah, but theyre not real xyzists!" If you don't want the tag, don't wear the label.

I suppose one could take a similar view with football supporters. Many fans will say the minority of violent thugs aren't true football supporters and quite a few seem to at least have some degree of sympathy with the view. Also, I think very few would consider say "stop supporting rangers" so you don't have the tag of 'football hooligan'" very fair.

Matters are I suppose more difficult with football supporters than they are with Christianity in one way. There are no set of values or code of conduct written down for football supporters so in one sense, we can not really say how true football supporters are expected to behave.

With Christianity, it is plain that they have the New Testament and are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ. At least most reasonable people would see that the thugs, rather than following this example are doing pretty much the opposite. In that way, I believe it is entirely reasonably to say they are not being true Chritians, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:18 AM

Follow the New Testament and the teachings of Christ eh? Hypatia probably wished they didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,metoo
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:34 AM

Please point me to the passage in the New Testament.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:13 AM

I don't think I have an issue with the 'teachings of Christ' as such. It's the interpretation of them over the last 2000 years that causes the problems. I will turn around the question, metoo. Where in Christs teachings does he say it is OK to burn witches and kill Jews? Is it Christ or the church that said contaception is wrong? Where in the New Testament does it say it is OK for one set of Christians to blow up another set of Christians because the do not have the same leader?

But, again, we are being sidetracked. Is a thread on football hooliganism the right place for a religious discussion? Is football the new religion after all?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,metoo
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:30 AM

Unfortunately where greed, desire for power, perhaps even desire for a justice exists, religion can be used as a tool in various ways. I will not dispute that it can be used wrongly or abused. I don't believe it is interpretation of the teaching of Christ though. Could you honestly read the New Testament and reach the conclusion that you should be doing any of the things you mentioned?

Is football the new religion? I don't think so but possibly it could be misused in one similar way? If for whatever purpose of my own, I wanted to stir up a fight, could I use "your a Man U supporter and he supports Liverpool" to further these ends?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:34 AM

But whoso shall offend one of these little [children] which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2)

That sounds pretty violent to me. Even Rangers fans haven't done that yet.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."    (Matthew 10:34)

That's what the guy said.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,metoo
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:39 AM

I'm thankfull you personally are not a Christian

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:00 AM

So am I.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:11 AM

"I agree with the findings of this report (Guardian May 2008)and feel church attendance as a family has a positive effect."

Our family attended church together - but, as a child, all it taught me was that adults are capable of spouting the most ludicrous, self-serving (not to mention unbearably tedious) nonsense.

Two robust antidotes to religion and its fallacies are Richard Dawkin's, 'The God Delusion' and Christopher Hitchen's, 'God Is Not Great'. Both books only confirm and articulate what my younger self suspected all along!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: meself
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:01 AM

'Oh bugger, it's THAT answer again. Whenever you point out to believers of any sort that other people of the same nominal belief behave like arseholes (angeli non sunt, sed ani), they shoot back "Ah, but theyre not real xyzists!" If you don't want the tag, don't wear the label.'

How exactly are the Rangers' fans/hooligans 'wearing the label'? Do they wave Bibles around, sing Onward Christian Soldiers in the stands, shout 'God is great!' whenever they clobber someone on the street, or what?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:51 AM

I was equaly surprised, meself. I thought sectarianism had lost it's hold on football but just take a look yourself. It's a very easy topic to reseach although it does not make for pleasant reading:-( There is a survey you will find (2005 I think) where it shows that sectarian crime is on the increase in general and is still rife on the terraces. I fully understand you not wanting to be tarred with the same brush as these thugs but, unfortnately, they are committing these crimes in the name of your religion. Until both football and religion rids itself of these people then they will both be dragged down.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:33 PM

I had a strict religious upbringing (didn't do my two brothers much good, wild as March Hares both of them). It was like growing up with God in the house(which I was told he was).

I can't say getting the bible thumped into you at a young age keeps you on the straight and narrow, I think if you are brought up with respect and a knowledge of right and wrong in the home it sticks with you. I respected my parents and my old man was firm, but understanding. He took no crap of any of us and if we did something wrong we heard about it !

Now one benefit I have to tell you about is my mother always insisted we attend the weekly Sunday Christian youth gathering and all Christian social evenings (David Whitfield on the gramophone and a bottle of lemonade).

She said "that is where you will meet a good clean living Christian girl,they make perfect wives". Well I have to say I loved going to these events but my mother wasn't exactly right about them. I remember there was only about three of the young ladies I met at these events that it wasn't eating the thigh of them. I stopped going to these events as I didn't have the stamina !

Sorry for the thread drift, right I am away to watch Chelsea collect the cup !

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:15 PM

Spot on, Victor Knowledge and respect is what is needed. Nothing to do with dogma.

Shame about your last line but it went right to the wire! Went to the best team of course..;-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:37 PM

Oh I can't argue with a Manchester man ! Enjoy the events in Manchester in the days to come Dave. A great victory for the people of Manchester I hope they all have a wonderful party. A great start to a Bank Holiday weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:18 AM

I'm going to be in St Louis! Me and my cousin may watch England vs USA in a bar in Memphis though:-) Thanks anyway, Victor. I'm sure the party this weekend will be far better natured than the events of last week.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:45 AM

Brilliant! Enjoy the experience and have a great time. Safe journey and don't forget the ipod for the flight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:26 PM

Whoops! No celebrations after all. Apparantly is is OK for hundreds of thousands of Scottish and Russian fans to use Manchester for ther 'festivities' but the Manchester United homecoming has been cancelled due to safety fears.

Ah well. Maybe the genuine fans who are complaining about the councils lack of integrity will think again when it comes to the next elections. I doubt it though. Maybe they will think twice about turning a blind eye to hooliganism? Doubt that as well. Sorry guys. You have brought it on yourself.

At least I will be safe in the knowledge that when my American cousin is supporting England in a Memphis bar while I take the oppositions side we will be safe from the idiots that plague us here. There may be a different set of idiots but that has nothing to do with football... ;-P

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:49 PM

Before anyone says it - Yes I am being a bit harsh on genuine fans. But the policing has to come from within the game and you are the only guys who can do it. Stay away. Don't support them until the hooligan element is gone. Make the people making the money sit up and listen.

Cheers

Dave
(Really wishing that the Reds could celebrate properly)

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:58 PM

Don't get carried away Davie....It's only a business!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:02 PM

"Do they wave Bibles around, sing Onward Christian Soldiers in the stands" Celtic fans used to sing "Faith of Our Fathers" when it was a game against Rangers. I don't know if they still do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Love that, ake:-) Can I borrow it?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Respectful
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:18 AM

Today's ITN lunchtime news has left me speechless. Drunken British holidaymakers are causing all sorts of problems for the Greek authorities. They are trying to tackle a rise in trouble at a number of resorts. As one Greek official put it "We expect this type of behaviour from visiting British football fans, but now they promote their talents on holiday as well".


Holiday spots on Crete and Zakynthos seem to be the worst. Crimes include drunkenness, GBH, racial violence, damage to property and sexual assaults on local women. Thousands of young Britons descend on the islands during July and August, attracted by cheap drinks and a raucous night-life.

Greek authorities have decided to take a hard line on the revellers in a bid to boost the faltering reputations of some of the holiday resorts. Family holidays have fallen by 80% on the islands.

Officers in Crete say they will arrest tourists they suspect of being very drunk as a pre-emptive strike to stop trouble before it starts. They added, no other nationality are involved in the violence. The resort is popular with French, German and Greek holiday makers.

Why can't our young people respect the laws of the country they are staying in ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:28 AM

They don't respect the laws at home! One answer would be to stop selling them cheap drinks but, oh no, that would reduce the profits the bars and cafes are making and we can't have that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:31 PM

The solution is to replace the discos with folk clubs!!