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BS: Palestinian 'facts'

beardedbruce 16 May 08 - 08:38 PM
Peace 16 May 08 - 08:43 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 08 - 08:45 PM
Peace 16 May 08 - 08:47 PM
Little Hawk 16 May 08 - 08:49 PM
Peace 16 May 08 - 08:51 PM
Little Hawk 16 May 08 - 08:59 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 08 - 08:59 PM
Peace 16 May 08 - 09:00 PM
Peace 16 May 08 - 09:01 PM
Little Hawk 16 May 08 - 09:17 PM
Peace 16 May 08 - 09:29 PM
CarolC 16 May 08 - 09:36 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 08 - 09:53 PM
Little Hawk 16 May 08 - 09:54 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 08 - 09:57 PM
Little Hawk 16 May 08 - 10:02 PM
Little Hawk 16 May 08 - 10:06 PM
CarolC 16 May 08 - 10:13 PM
beardedbruce 16 May 08 - 10:17 PM
CarolC 16 May 08 - 10:21 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 02:08 AM
Bobert 17 May 08 - 08:49 AM
bankley 17 May 08 - 12:02 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 08:24 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 09:16 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 10:04 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 10:08 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 10:16 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 10:23 PM
Bobert 17 May 08 - 10:25 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 10:27 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 10:31 PM
Peace 17 May 08 - 10:35 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 10:39 PM
Peace 17 May 08 - 10:45 PM
bobad 17 May 08 - 10:49 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 10:57 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 11:02 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 11:03 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 11:18 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 11:21 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 11:33 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 11:39 PM
beardedbruce 17 May 08 - 11:42 PM
CarolC 17 May 08 - 11:55 PM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 12:00 AM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 12:03 AM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 12:04 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 12:04 AM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 12:53 AM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 12:58 AM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 01:09 AM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 01:22 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,albert 18 May 08 - 05:41 AM
Richard Bridge 18 May 08 - 06:24 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 06:42 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 07:40 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 07:49 AM
Bobert 18 May 08 - 07:50 AM
Bobert 18 May 08 - 07:57 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 08:02 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 08:03 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 08:05 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 08:06 AM
Bobert 18 May 08 - 08:11 AM
goatfell 18 May 08 - 08:14 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 08:46 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 08:55 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 08:59 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 09:10 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 09:34 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 09:38 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 09:45 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 10:07 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 10:10 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 10:16 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 10:27 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 10:31 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 10:56 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 11:04 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 11:06 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 11:19 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 11:22 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 11:45 AM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 11:48 AM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 12:18 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 12:25 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 12:25 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 12:32 PM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 12:37 PM
beardedbruce 18 May 08 - 12:42 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 12:50 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 01:47 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 02:08 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 02:24 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 02:53 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 03:11 PM
pdq 18 May 08 - 03:16 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 03:16 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 03:33 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 03:37 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 03:48 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 04:14 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 04:18 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 04:20 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 04:26 PM
pdq 18 May 08 - 04:30 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 04:31 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,albert 18 May 08 - 04:41 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 04:47 PM
Richard Bridge 18 May 08 - 04:50 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 04:50 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 04:51 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 04:54 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 04:59 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,let the jewish & arab women rule in middle e 18 May 08 - 05:05 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 05:06 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 05:09 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 05:14 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 05:16 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 05:17 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Jewish/Arab woman again 18 May 08 - 05:20 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 05:21 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 05:31 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 05:32 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 05:36 PM
pdq 18 May 08 - 05:39 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 05:42 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 05:53 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 06:02 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Jewish/Arab woman 18 May 08 - 06:08 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 06:08 PM
pdq 18 May 08 - 06:12 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 06:15 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 06:20 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 06:21 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 06:22 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 06:26 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 06:29 PM
Emma B 18 May 08 - 06:33 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 06:37 PM
pdq 18 May 08 - 06:37 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 08:02 PM
Bill D 18 May 08 - 08:06 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 08:08 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 10:22 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 10:27 PM
CarolC 18 May 08 - 10:47 PM
Peace 18 May 08 - 11:02 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 12:08 AM
Peace 19 May 08 - 12:12 AM
pdq 19 May 08 - 09:14 AM
Emma B 19 May 08 - 12:03 PM
bankley 19 May 08 - 12:14 PM
Emma B 19 May 08 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,albert 19 May 08 - 12:38 PM
Emma B 19 May 08 - 12:45 PM
Emma B 19 May 08 - 12:48 PM
pdq 19 May 08 - 01:14 PM
bobad 19 May 08 - 01:15 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 02:04 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 02:08 PM
Emma B 19 May 08 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 03:28 PM
bobad 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM
irishenglish 19 May 08 - 04:01 PM
Emma B 19 May 08 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Albert 19 May 08 - 05:26 PM
GUEST 19 May 08 - 05:30 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 08:23 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 08:35 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 09:33 PM
pdq 19 May 08 - 09:43 PM
CarolC 19 May 08 - 10:41 PM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 01:28 AM
irishenglish 20 May 08 - 07:14 AM
Wolfgang 20 May 08 - 09:27 AM
Peace 20 May 08 - 09:35 AM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 20 May 08 - 10:19 AM
Peace 20 May 08 - 10:24 AM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 20 May 08 - 10:26 AM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 11:06 AM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 11:11 AM
Peace 20 May 08 - 11:31 AM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 11:46 AM
Peace 20 May 08 - 11:53 AM
Peace 20 May 08 - 11:55 AM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 20 May 08 - 12:15 PM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 12:19 PM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 12:26 PM
Emma B 20 May 08 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,albert 20 May 08 - 12:30 PM
Peace 20 May 08 - 12:33 PM
Peace 20 May 08 - 12:33 PM
Emma B 20 May 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST 20 May 08 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,JA woman 20 May 08 - 01:45 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 20 May 08 - 01:52 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 20 May 08 - 01:56 PM
Emma B 20 May 08 - 02:05 PM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 02:10 PM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 02:14 PM
Emma B 20 May 08 - 02:23 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 20 May 08 - 03:19 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 20 May 08 - 03:40 PM
irishenglish 20 May 08 - 03:44 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 20 May 08 - 04:04 PM
Peace 20 May 08 - 04:09 PM
Peace 20 May 08 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,albert 20 May 08 - 04:25 PM
CarolC 20 May 08 - 06:23 PM
Peace 20 May 08 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,albert 21 May 08 - 02:24 AM
Emma B 21 May 08 - 04:51 AM
Emma B 21 May 08 - 05:07 AM
goatfell 21 May 08 - 09:27 AM
pdq 21 May 08 - 10:13 AM
Peace 21 May 08 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,Arnie 21 May 08 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,albert 21 May 08 - 12:15 PM
Peace 21 May 08 - 12:23 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 21 May 08 - 01:01 PM
CarolC 21 May 08 - 02:01 PM
CarolC 21 May 08 - 02:09 PM
Peace 21 May 08 - 03:33 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 02:08 AM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 22 May 08 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Albert 22 May 08 - 11:46 AM
Emma B 22 May 08 - 01:44 PM
Peace 22 May 08 - 01:50 PM
bobad 22 May 08 - 01:59 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 02:03 PM
bobad 22 May 08 - 02:09 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 02:13 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 02:21 PM
bobad 22 May 08 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 02:59 PM
Emma B 22 May 08 - 03:01 PM
bobad 22 May 08 - 03:28 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 22 May 08 - 03:35 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 22 May 08 - 03:51 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 22 May 08 - 03:55 PM
bobad 22 May 08 - 03:56 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 04:09 PM
bobad 22 May 08 - 04:15 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 04:42 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 04:54 PM
Peace 22 May 08 - 05:00 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 May 08 - 06:15 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 10:18 PM
CarolC 22 May 08 - 11:30 PM
Teribus 23 May 08 - 12:40 AM
CarolC 23 May 08 - 02:29 AM
GUEST 23 May 08 - 02:40 AM
CarolC 23 May 08 - 03:04 AM
Peace 23 May 08 - 09:51 AM
Peace 23 May 08 - 10:00 AM
Peace 23 May 08 - 10:03 AM
Peace 23 May 08 - 10:06 AM
pdq 23 May 08 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,albert 23 May 08 - 11:47 AM
CarolC 23 May 08 - 04:25 PM
CarolC 23 May 08 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Arnie 23 May 08 - 10:13 PM
Peace 23 May 08 - 10:15 PM
CarolC 23 May 08 - 11:45 PM
Peace 23 May 08 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,albert 24 May 08 - 06:40 AM
GUEST 24 May 08 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Arnie 24 May 08 - 07:47 AM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,from albert 24 May 08 - 02:39 PM
Peace 24 May 08 - 02:40 PM
robomatic 24 May 08 - 02:41 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 02:47 PM
robomatic 24 May 08 - 02:53 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,albert 24 May 08 - 03:31 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 24 May 08 - 04:31 PM
Peace 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Arnie 24 May 08 - 05:13 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 05:29 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 05:30 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 24 May 08 - 06:06 PM
Peace 24 May 08 - 07:50 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 09:09 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 24 May 08 - 09:14 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 09:36 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 May 08 - 09:40 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 09:43 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 24 May 08 - 10:01 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 10:09 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 May 08 - 10:25 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 10:42 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 24 May 08 - 10:49 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 10:57 PM
Joe Offer 24 May 08 - 11:08 PM
GUEST,Arnie 24 May 08 - 11:10 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 May 08 - 11:11 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 May 08 - 11:20 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 11:26 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 May 08 - 11:37 PM
CarolC 24 May 08 - 11:52 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 25 May 08 - 12:38 AM
GUEST,albert 25 May 08 - 01:08 AM
Peace 25 May 08 - 01:17 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 02:27 AM
GUEST,albert 25 May 08 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Peace-bringer 25 May 08 - 04:15 AM
Teribus 25 May 08 - 04:36 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,Peace-bringer 25 May 08 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 25 May 08 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Peace-bringer 25 May 08 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,albert 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Arnie 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM
Emma B 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM
bobad 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Arnie 25 May 08 - 08:26 AM
Emma B 25 May 08 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,David 25 May 08 - 08:51 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 25 May 08 - 08:57 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 09:07 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,albert 25 May 08 - 09:19 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Arnie 25 May 08 - 09:48 AM
Teribus 25 May 08 - 10:29 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 25 May 08 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Peace-bringer 25 May 08 - 10:58 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 11:04 AM
goatfell 25 May 08 - 11:09 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 11:16 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 11:44 AM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 12:04 PM
Teribus 25 May 08 - 12:22 PM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 12:25 PM
Peace 25 May 08 - 12:50 PM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 01:17 PM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 01:19 PM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 02:29 PM
Teribus 25 May 08 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Albert 25 May 08 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Arnie 25 May 08 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Arnie 25 May 08 - 04:00 PM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 05:09 PM
CarolC 25 May 08 - 05:22 PM
Teribus 25 May 08 - 05:46 PM
Peace 25 May 08 - 06:38 PM
Peace 25 May 08 - 06:40 PM
bobad 25 May 08 - 07:32 PM
Peace 25 May 08 - 07:37 PM
Peace 25 May 08 - 07:38 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 25 May 08 - 09:41 PM
GUEST,albert 26 May 08 - 01:29 AM
Teribus 26 May 08 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,David 26 May 08 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,albert 26 May 08 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,David 26 May 08 - 06:07 AM
Teribus 26 May 08 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Arnie 26 May 08 - 07:38 AM
Teribus 26 May 08 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,David 26 May 08 - 11:53 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 May 08 - 12:25 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 May 08 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,David 26 May 08 - 01:32 PM
bobad 26 May 08 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Albert 26 May 08 - 01:53 PM
Teribus 26 May 08 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,albert 26 May 08 - 02:09 PM
Teribus 26 May 08 - 02:10 PM
Peace 26 May 08 - 02:12 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 May 08 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,david 26 May 08 - 02:20 PM
Amos 26 May 08 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Arnie 26 May 08 - 02:48 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 May 08 - 02:51 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 26 May 08 - 03:50 PM
Peace 26 May 08 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,albert 26 May 08 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,Arnie 26 May 08 - 04:35 PM
Teribus 26 May 08 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,albert 26 May 08 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,david 26 May 08 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Arnie 26 May 08 - 07:57 PM
Peace 26 May 08 - 11:05 PM
Peace 26 May 08 - 11:34 PM
Peace 26 May 08 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Albert 27 May 08 - 12:55 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 01:57 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 02:03 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 02:09 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 02:17 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 02:28 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 02:32 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,david 27 May 08 - 04:11 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Arnie 27 May 08 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,david 27 May 08 - 10:34 AM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,David 27 May 08 - 10:47 AM
bobad 27 May 08 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Arnie 27 May 08 - 11:31 AM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 12:15 PM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 01:18 PM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 01:25 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 01:44 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 02:02 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 02:05 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 May 08 - 02:07 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 02:10 PM
Teribus 27 May 08 - 02:16 PM
Teribus 27 May 08 - 02:34 PM
Wolfgang 27 May 08 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Arnie 27 May 08 - 02:54 PM
Teribus 27 May 08 - 03:13 PM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 03:33 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 03:35 PM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 03:40 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 03:49 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 03:50 PM
bankley 27 May 08 - 03:56 PM
CarolC 27 May 08 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Arnie 27 May 08 - 04:00 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 04:01 PM
beardedbruce 27 May 08 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,albert 27 May 08 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,Arnie 27 May 08 - 05:35 PM
EBarnacle 27 May 08 - 05:50 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 May 08 - 06:08 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 27 May 08 - 07:00 PM
Peace 27 May 08 - 09:21 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 May 08 - 09:32 PM
EBarnacle 27 May 08 - 09:45 PM
CarolC 28 May 08 - 12:22 AM
Peace 28 May 08 - 12:24 AM
Peace 28 May 08 - 12:47 AM
Teribus 28 May 08 - 01:13 AM
GUEST,david 28 May 08 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,albert 28 May 08 - 07:19 AM
GUEST,Peace-bringer 28 May 08 - 07:48 AM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Peace-bringer 28 May 08 - 08:12 AM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 08:19 AM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 08:31 AM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 08:38 AM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 08:40 AM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 08:45 AM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 08:47 AM
bobad 28 May 08 - 09:03 AM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 09:10 AM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 09:21 AM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 09:23 AM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 09:36 AM
Peace 28 May 08 - 10:02 AM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 10:07 AM
Peace 28 May 08 - 10:21 AM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 02:37 PM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 02:58 PM
Peace 28 May 08 - 03:12 PM
CarolC 28 May 08 - 04:32 PM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 04:38 PM
CarolC 28 May 08 - 04:42 PM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 04:46 PM
Peace 28 May 08 - 04:50 PM
Peace 28 May 08 - 04:54 PM
Emma B 28 May 08 - 04:58 PM
Sorcha 28 May 08 - 05:13 PM
CarolC 28 May 08 - 10:51 PM
CarolC 28 May 08 - 11:32 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 12:25 AM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 12:40 AM
GUEST,albert 29 May 08 - 05:37 AM
Peace 29 May 08 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Arnie 29 May 08 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,albert 29 May 08 - 12:33 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,david 29 May 08 - 12:47 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 01:18 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 01:54 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Arnie 29 May 08 - 02:32 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Hugo 29 May 08 - 02:35 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM
Emma B 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 02:41 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Arnie 29 May 08 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Arnie 29 May 08 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Hugo 29 May 08 - 03:59 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 04:01 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,Arnie 29 May 08 - 04:20 PM
Emma B 29 May 08 - 04:57 PM
Emma B 29 May 08 - 05:21 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 05:27 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 05:40 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 05:45 PM
Emma B 29 May 08 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 05:54 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 05:57 PM
Emma B 29 May 08 - 06:01 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Arnie 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM
Emma B 29 May 08 - 06:07 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 06:10 PM
CarolC 29 May 08 - 06:14 PM
Teribus 29 May 08 - 08:10 PM
GUEST,Arnie 29 May 08 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,albert 30 May 08 - 04:43 AM
beardedbruce 30 May 08 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,albert 30 May 08 - 09:27 AM
Teribus 30 May 08 - 10:07 AM
beardedbruce 30 May 08 - 12:19 PM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 02:26 PM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Arnie 30 May 08 - 02:54 PM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Arnie 30 May 08 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Arnie 30 May 08 - 03:55 PM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 04:17 PM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Arnie 30 May 08 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,albert 30 May 08 - 06:05 PM
Stringsinger 30 May 08 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Arnie 30 May 08 - 06:49 PM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 10:02 PM
GUEST,Arnie 30 May 08 - 10:44 PM
CarolC 31 May 08 - 01:08 AM
CarolC 31 May 08 - 01:13 AM
Teribus 31 May 08 - 03:16 AM
CarolC 31 May 08 - 03:50 AM
goatfell 31 May 08 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,David 31 May 08 - 09:20 AM
Teribus 31 May 08 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Arnie 31 May 08 - 11:19 AM
bobad 31 May 08 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,David 31 May 08 - 01:07 PM
Peace 31 May 08 - 01:25 PM
bobad 31 May 08 - 01:51 PM
CarolC 31 May 08 - 02:06 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 31 May 08 - 02:54 PM
Peace 31 May 08 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Hugo 31 May 08 - 03:07 PM
CarolC 31 May 08 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Arnie 31 May 08 - 05:53 PM
Peace 31 May 08 - 06:03 PM
Emma B 31 May 08 - 06:29 PM
Teribus 31 May 08 - 06:52 PM
Emma B 31 May 08 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,Arnie 31 May 08 - 07:22 PM
Emma B 31 May 08 - 07:41 PM
Teribus 31 May 08 - 07:44 PM
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Subject: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:38 PM

Hamas Holocaust perversion:
Jews planned Holocaust to kill handicapped Jews

By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, Apr. 30, 2008


Jewish leaders planned the Holocaust to kill "disabled and handicapped" Jews to avoid having to care for them, according to a Hamas TV educational program. As much of the world prepared to commemorate Yom HaShoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day, Hamas TV presented its latest sinister twist on Holocaust denial.

The Hamas TV educational program, broadcast last week, taught that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was a Zionist plot with two goals:

1- To eliminate "disabled and handicapped" Jews by sending them to death camps, so they would not be a burden on the future state of Israel.
2- At the same time, the Holocaust served to make "the Jews seem persecuted" so they could "benefit from international sympathy."

Amin Dabur, head of the Palestinian "Center for Strategic Research" explained that "the Israeli Holocaust - the whole thing was a joke, and part of the perfect show that [Zionist leader and future Israeli prime minister] Ben Gurion put on." The "young energetic and able" were sent to Israel, while the handicapped were sent "so there would be a Holocaust."

more at http://www.pmw.org.il/


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:43 PM

HAMas. Anyone told them yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:45 PM

It was on Palestinian TV- It must be correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:47 PM

It's hard to argue with the facts, Bruce. Palestinian TV doesn't need to brainwash its viewers. It seems a light rinse would do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:49 PM

And your point is what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:51 PM

If you, sir, are addressing me, my point is that maybe we can begin to see why the peace process in the Middle East is such a difficult one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:59 PM

No, I was addressing BB. I have not noticed that this site is overloaded with enthusiastic fans and promoters of Hamas. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 08:59 PM

LH,

You have a problem with listening to what the Palestinians are themselves saying? I thought we could trust them far more than those nasty Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:00 PM

Hell, LH, I'm funnin' with you. I know you don't buy into that bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:01 PM

Guys. We KNOW that Palestinian TV is filled with this kinda shit. Let's not get at each other about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:17 PM

"I thought we could trust them far more than those nasty Jews."

That's where you were dead wrong, BB! They are at least equally untrustworthy in their use of self-serving propaganda. ;-) And this has always been clear to me.

Pointing out that the rhetoric of Hamas is extreme is like pointing out that mud is slippery and wet. Gosh! Who'd-a thunk it?

I see no point in stirring up hatred against Jews by quoting the worst things that a few Jewish militants have said. I see no point in stirring up hatred against Palestinians by pointing out the worst things that a few Hamas militants have said either.

Most ordinary Jews and Palestinians are the victims of this situation, not the perpetrators of it. They both get drawn in for the same reasons...they feel that they have been threatened and that their people have suffered injury. They are both right about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:29 PM

Problem is that the folks who defend the tactics of Hamas while condemning Israel never SAY that, LH. They tend to gloss over it, excuse it. They excuse the inexcusable in the name of an ideology. Been that way for a long time here. They cloak it in the guise of 'scholarly research' when in fact it is an attempt to portray Israel as the aggressor in any and all conflicts, which we are only too aware is bullshit. Hell, did you post to that other thread and say the same damned thing?

Ah, fuck it! May as well talk to a wall as try to make sense out of people who will berate Israel while giving garbage like Hamas a free pass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:36 PM

I think it's as inaccurate, however, to suggest that Hamas and "the Palestinians" are one and the same thing as it is to say that the Kahanists and "the Jews" are one and the same thing. Of course, we know that in both cases, they are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:53 PM

Yet you post quotes from individuals and claim them as Israeli policy.

Do I detect a double standard??


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:54 PM

Yes, that was sort of what I had in mind. Hamas and "the Palestinians" are not one and the same thing. Hamas is a specific organization composed of some militant Palestinians...they are not "the Palestinians" in any collective sense. They are an armed political faction. They are not a nation. They are not a people. They are a militant armed political faction with their own agenda. Most Palestinians are not members of Hamas, they are just people trying to survive.

Shall I judge all Blacks by the activities of the Black Panthers? Shall I judge all Jews by the activities of the most militant Zionist group I can name?

No.

That's why I think, BB, that your thread doesn't have a terribly apt title. It implicates "Palestinians". It's not about Palestinians, it's about Hamas.

You would not like to see a thread with a similar title which implicated "Jews"...as if all Jews were just a bunch of liars and bad people. Would you? Such a thread with such a title would not even be allowed on this forum. It would be closed, because it would be deemed (and quite correctly) antisemitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:57 PM

Hamas is the government of Gaza, and presently engaging in acts of war against Israel.

Yes or NO?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:02 PM

To criticize Israeli policy is not the same thing as to attack "Jews", BB. Jews are simply a people united by a common culture. They are not a state or an organization. They do not have a policy. Anyone is free to criticize the policies of any sovereign state or organization if they want to.

To criticize the policies and activities of Hamas is not the same thing as to attack "Palestinians" in general. Your thread title attacks Palestinians. They are not a state, they are not an organization, they are, like Jews, simply a people united by a common culture. If anti-semitism is unacceptable, then so is anti-whatever-the-heck-you-call-it-when-it's-the-Palestinians-who-are-being-attacked in general as a people.

I have no objection to your complaints about Hamas. I have an objection to your thread title.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:06 PM

Yeah, Hamas (the present government of Gaza) and the Israelis are endlessly involved in retaliatory acts of war against each other. Ask either one, and they'll tell you that the other guy did it first. (And I expect they both believe that too.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:13 PM

Yet you post quotes from individuals and claim them as Israeli policy.

I talk about Israeli government policy. Talking about the Israeli government is not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination, as talking about "the Jews". And I know you know this because if I were to try to conflate the two, you and a whole host of other people would call me anti-Semitic. It's no less racist to conflate the policies of Hamas with "the Palestinians".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:17 PM

This thread is in response to your claim that it is official Israeli policy to start wars to take land.

Are you worried about people hearing Hamas/Palestinian GOVERNMENT policies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:21 PM

No, I'm not worried about that. Hamas has policies that are not possible to defend. What is wrong, however, is for you to conflate Hamas with "the Palestinian people". There are more Palestinians who are being governed by Fatah right now than there are being governed by Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:08 AM

I'm curious to know what they're teaching in Israeli schools to produce kids like these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YMTbKxB1mk&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSAvaYY-y7Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EUUrE8Lm14&NR=1


The children are about halfway through this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kem1ajIKv1k&feature=related


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:49 AM

You know, I have a problem with anyone's thinking that all people in a certain region think exactly alike... I mean, when I read stuff like "what the Palestinians are themselves saying" it gives the wrong impression that every last Palestian on Earth is saying... I believe it would be more accurate to use terms like "what many Palestianians' are saying...

This is the problem when people see things as either "black or white" and it is an important distinction that needs to be made if we are going to make any progress in changing a dogmatic and outdated foriegn policy into a pragmatic and workable one...

We collectively need to stop trying to pigeon-hole people based on where they live or their national creed...

BTW, what cannot be argued is that in 1948 some 4,000,000 Palestians were uprooted from their homes and pushed into refugee camps... We need to keep this *fact* in our thoughts as we try look for ways to find an equitable settlement of the Middle East situation...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 17 May 08 - 12:02 PM

"Ali was the 7th son of a 7th sun
grew up in Gaza throwing rocks and stones at the tanks that come
ain't much to do around there, just a game children play
there's something about living in fear all your life
that makes you hard that way
He answered when he got the call
strapped himself in death and then he praised Allah
A fat man in a new Mercedes drove him to the door
He's just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war"

3rd Verse/ Rich Man's War/ Steve Earle



..... I brought some Hamas home for lunch....er..I mean hummus


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:24 PM

"in 1948 some 4,000,000 Palestians were uprooted from their homes"


Bobert, I keep telling you that the wholesale exagerations that you insist on performing to any statistic you see do more to hurt your viewpoint than help.

The best figures on PERMANENT refugess that I have seen are

648,000 Palestinian Moslims displaced from Israel
820,000 Arab Jews displaced from the Arab nations

In both sets, the individuals chose to leave for fear of their lives. Israel settles about 560,000 of the Arab Jews. Nobody settled the Palestinian Moslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:16 PM

Bobert, Using the PALESTINIAN sources...



The number of Arabs residing in Palestine as citizens in 1948 and consequently the number of refugees, is a matter of controversy.
McCarthy (article in Encyclopedia of the Palestinians, Philip Mattar Ed. posted at the Palestine Remembered Web site ) states the following:
Of the 1,358,000 Palestinian Arab citizens of Palestine in 1948, approximately 873;600 resided within what would become the Israeli borders, 485,000 without. The Israelis recorded 156,000 non-Jews in 1948, a number that included perhaps 1,000 non-Arabs, leaving 155,000 Palestinians in Israel. This means that 718,000 Palestinians either were refugees or died during the war. Note that this number depends on the somewhat imprecise estimation of the numbers who lived on both sides of the border before the war, and so should be taken as a mean estimate. However, statistically it cannot be wrong by more than 5 to 10 percent (for other analyses, see Khalidi, 1992; Bachi, 1977).
The above estimates which according to McCarthy "cannot be wrong by more than 5 to 10 percent" probably overestimate the population within the area of Israel by about 20% as we shall see. The 156,000 "non-Jews" recorded by the Israelis included about 15,000 Druze. McCarthy counts these apparently in all statistics though he writes:
" all non-citizens, as well as non-Druze listed along with the Druze under the category "Other" in the British data, should be excluded."
If he did not count the Druze, then how else could he report 860,000 Arabs in 1931, when the census reported less than 849,000? The extra 10,000 Druze seem to make up the discrepancy.
The above numbers are based on the assumption of McCarthy that the Mandate figures for mortality and fertility were wrong. So he has corrected by "fudge factors." If indeed the mandate numbers for fertility and mortality were wrong, the numbers found in the Census of 1931 would have been very different from the estimates given in previous years. They were not.
A confusion has arisen about the number of refugees originally reported by the UN. Some Zionists cite a figure as low as 472,000. That number is an interim estimate, not a final figure. It comes from a progress report by UN Mediator Ralph Bunche, published Oct. 18, 1948.
The number 726,000 comes from an economic survey final report published Dec. 28, 1949, by the UN Conciliation Commission. The document is available in PDF format. That is the figure McCarthy used. But In its report A/1367/Rev.1, dated Oct. 23, 1950, the U.N. Conciliation Commission revised the 726,000 estimate down to 711,000. It stated:
15. The estimate of the statistical expert, which the Committee believes to be as accurate as circumstances permit, indicates that the refugees from Israel-controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000. The fact that there is a higher number of relief recipients appears to be due among other things to duplication of ration cards, addition of persons who have been displaced from areas other than Israel-held areas and of persons who, although not displaced, are destitute.
In fact, there was probably no way to determine precisely how many refugees there were for the reasons cited above, and because of addition of non-Palestinian Arabs who where also destitute and "displaced from areas other than Israel held areas" (or not displaced at all) or persons who "although not displaced, are destitute." There is always a large supply of persons who are destitute in this part of the world, but that is not related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.




PLEASE NOTE ( emphasis, not shouting:)
Of the 1,358,000 Palestinian Arab citizens of Palestine in 1948, approximately 873;600 resided within what would become the Israeli borders, 485,000 without. The Israelis recorded 156,000 non-Jews in 1948, a number that included perhaps 1,000 non-Arabs, leaving 155,000 Palestinians in Israel. This means that 718,000 Palestinians either were refugees or died during the war. Note that this number depends on the somewhat imprecise estimation of the numbers who lived on both sides of the border before the war, and so should be taken as a mean estimate.

So your WAG of 4 million is a lot like your other statistics- without merit. THREE times as many as the ENTIRE non-Jewish population??? Or are you saying the other ARAB nations sent a few more along, just to keep them company?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:04 PM

Israel settles about 560,000 of the Arab Jews.

I wonder if that number includes the many who were sold to people in other countries after they were brought to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:08 PM

source of your accusation, please?

I have stories of Arab Moslims skinning Jews and leaving them to die in agony- do we count them as killed, or just wounded if they died after being recovered?

But my point is that a WAG of three times the entire Arab population of Palestine as refugees is a little over the top- or an outright lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:16 PM

http://www.geocities.com/stop_abuse.geo/ym1.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:23 PM

1. "The number of kidnapped children has been told to be around
2,400 by the official investigating committee. When Rabbi Uzi
Meshulam was still collecting evidence, he gathered the names of
4,500 children. I believe that the real number is much larger
than that. Since I have found that many families never reported
the disappearance of a child, I estimate that approximately
10,000 children were kidnapped and sold, and I would not be
surprised if the real number is higher."

I do not see any confirmation or source material presented. If this were a claim about Palestinians, would you be satisfied with the documentation?

But having been brought up, it does bear looking into.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:25 PM

Yo, BB,

Source: Professor Rashid Khalidi, Columbia University and auhtor of "The Iron Cage, The Story of Palestinian Struggle for Statehood"

If you think you are smarter or have a more indepth understyanding of the Palistinian situation, BB, then feel free to take your arguments to the Board of Regents at Columbia University and tell them exactly whay you think this respected author is full of shit and why you think you are more qualified to teach his classes...

Make that 4,000,000 Palestinainas uprooted until you prove Professor Khalidi wrong, which BTW should you do that then please have the man fired and you hired... Okay???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:27 PM

Looks to me like you only read the front page, beardedbruce.

But you're right. Why believe those immigrants? They may be Jewish, but they're still Arabs, and we both know that Arabs can't be trusted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:31 PM

Actually, I read the first 4 pages..


Bobert,

Are you claiming that the number of Palestinian refugees is a number three times greater than the entire non-Jewish population of Palestine???????

Think about it.

Use ALL your toes to count this time.

Yes, if that is the number that Professor Khalidi states he is lying, unless the Palestinians themselves were hiding 2.7 million people from the census in 1948.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:35 PM

Lest things be taken OUT of context, Tal lauds the work of Yechiel Mann on the page from which the quotation below was taken.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:NT3cXGd6kpQJ:www.ha-keshet.org.il/english/missing_yemenite.htm+Yechiel+Mann&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=ca

or here

"CONCLUSION
It is reasonable to believe that none of the Israeli governments was directly involved in the kidnapping of Yemenite children. Some of the children really died, others were adopted with the apparent consent of their families, but many others were kidnapped by independent criminals. Moreover most of these criminals were holding high ranked positions, and this enabled them to evade punishment. Accordingly it makes the establishment quite liable (according to Israeli law). Needless to say that had the babies been Ashkenazi, the investigation of their disappearance would have been held long ago, and without court orders.


Doron A. Tal
Site owner"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:39 PM

"In 1922, the British undertook the first census of the mandate. The population was 752,048, comprising 589,177 Muslims, 83,790 Jews, 71,464 Christians and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. After a second census in 1931, the population had grown to 1,036,339 in total, comprising 761,922 Muslims, 175,138 Jews, 89,134 Christians and 10,145 people belonging to other groups. There were no further censuses but statistics were maintained by counting births, deaths and migration. Some components such as illegal immigration could only be estimated approximately. The White Paper of 1939, which placed immigration restrictions on Jews, stated that the Jewish population "has risen to some 450,000" and was "approaching a third of the entire population of the country". In 1945, a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups."

"Palestinian Population, 1860-2000 (thousands)

YEAR         WITHIN PALESTINE         ISRAEL         WEST BANK*        GAZA         INSIDE PALESTINE         TOTAL
1860        411                                                411
1890        553                                                533
1914        738                                                738
1918        689        **                                        689
1931        860                                                860
1940        1,086                                                1,086
1946        1,308                                                1,308
1950        1,170        of which        165        765        240        304        1,474
1960        1,340                239        799        302        647        1,987
1970        1,412                367        677        368        1,289        2,701
1980        1,992                531        964        497        2,100        4,092
1990        2,731                687        1,373        671        3,302        6,033
2000        3,787                919        1,836        1,032        4,667        8,454
"

"
Year          Jews       Arabs       Total    % of Jews to Total
1914        60,000        731,000        791,000        7.585%
1922        83,790        668,258        752,048        11.141%
1931        174,606        858,708        1,033,314        16.897%
1941        474,102        1,111,398        1,585,500        29.902%
1950        1,203,000        1,172,100        2,375,100        50.650%
1960        1,911,300        1,340,100        3,251,400        58.783%
1970 *        2,582,000        1,045,000        3,627,000        71.188%
1980        3,282,700        2,100,000        5,382,700        60.986%
1995        4,495,100        3,506,900        8,002,000        56.173%
2005        5,275,700        5,139,100        10,414,800        50.656%
"


PLEASE tell me where 4 million comes from- Are you counting each arm or leg as a new refugee?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:45 PM

The 4 million figure is wrong. Most sites I have read place the number variously between 1 and 1.3 million.

For fuck sake, quit the goddamned lies, bullshit and obfuscation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:49 PM

Exaggeration is a well recognized Arab cultural trait. It does not carry the same implications in their culture as it does in Western culture, rather it is seen more as an oratorical device or a way to emphasize a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:57 PM

I think by "governments" he meant prime minister and Knesset, because he goes on to say (in your quoted excerpt)...

"Moreover most of these criminals were holding high ranked positions, and this enabled them to evade punishment. Accordingly it makes the establishment quite liable (according to Israeli law)."

Many people in the government were involved in this enterprise, and he says so in the quote above as well as elsewhere. And the fact that they have evaded punishment suggest complicity at very high levels.

Nevertheless, I still wonder if the number beardedbruce quotes for Jews resettled in Israel includes these people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:02 PM

I do not see any confirmation or source material presented...

Actually, I read the first 4 pages.


Looks like you didn't look at the page with the supporting documentation. Nevertheless, the government is still covering this one up, as they have been doing all along, so you aren't likely to get any confirmation from them. But there's no shortage of proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:03 PM

CarolC,

I do not know. Will it make you happy if we assume NO, and make it 530,000 instead of 560,000? As compared to the number of Arab Moslim Palestinians settled by the Arab nations?

The total number of Jewish refugees still exceeds the total number of Palestinian Moslim refugees.


Unless you agree with Bobert and count each Moslim arm or leg as a new refugee?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:18 PM

No, I don't think that would make me happy. I don't think anyone should be trying to suggest how many people were resettled in Israel until this situation has been cleared up to the satisfaction of the parents of these children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:21 PM

And I don't think that any respectable person should be claiming that the number of Palestinian Moslim refugees is three times the total number of non-jewish Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:33 PM

Well, I haven't done that, beardedbruce, so I don't think I'm the appropriate person for you to address that comment to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:39 PM

the number of Palestinian Moslim refugees

Once again, you gloss over the Christian refugees during 1948 and 1949. (I suspect that won't bring the number up to 4,000,000 but I'd like to see what Professor Khalidi has to say on the subject before I decide what I really think about it.)

Palestinian facts:

There were many Christian Palestinian refugees in 1948 and 1949. There are many Christian Palestinians still living in Occupied Palestine, suffering just as much under the occupation as the Muslim Palestinians. These people don't deserve to have their existence denied by anyone, including you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:42 PM

And I subtracted them off, and gave you the number without those disputed people. I claim MORE were settled, but will use the lower number to exclude those that are in dispute. OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:55 PM

We don't know yet how many are in dispute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:00 AM

The article claims numbers less than 10,000, and I gave you 30,000. If you want more than that, better start using Bobert-Math.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:03 AM

"I estimate that approximately 10,000 children were kidnapped and sold, and I would not be surprised if the real number is higher."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:04 AM

Oops. Missed part of your post. I just don't think it's appropriate to try to say what the numbers are at this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:04 AM

" estimate that approximately
10,000 children were kidnapped and sold, and I would not be
surprised if the real number is higher.""


If THREE times the number that the source you have is not a fair estimate ( as disputed, and thus not counted, you really need to rethink your ability to make fair decisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:53 AM

beardedbruce, we have no way of knowing if it is a fair estimate or not. You can pick a number you like and run with it if you want, but I choose not to.

I also dispute the idea that all of the Jews who fled the Arab countries did so exclusively because of the actions of Muslims.   We know that Israel engaged in acts of terrorism in Arab countries in order to create an untenable situation for the Jews in those countries so they would have to leave. There's no way to know how many would have stayed had Israel not done these things, but Israel bears a lot of responsibility for its influx of refugees, so it's not at all correct to try to make comparisons about which country resettled more refugees.

If Israel was responsible for the non-Jewish Palestinian refugees, and it was also responsible for many of the Jewish refugees, it bears a much greater responsibility for making sure that those refugees are settled. And on top of that, it is against international law for a country to not allow refugees to return to their homes after a war has ended, so all of the refugees from what is now Israel have a legal right to return to their homes according to international law.

You have asserted that the governments of the Arab countries from which Jews fled ought to allow them to return, but you have not been able to provide any information about whether or not any of those Jews has expressed a desire to return to their countries of origin, so I think that assertion is just a distraction. The governments of those other countries don't have a responsibility to repatriate anyone if there is no one who wants to be repatriated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:58 AM

Also, Israel has a large number of internal refugees. These are Palestinians who fled their homes, but stayed in what is now Israel, and are Israeli citizens. Israel has never allowed any of these refugees to return to their homes. Israel is in no position to point fingers at other countries for not settling the refugees fleeing Israel to their countries if Israel is has not even been willing to allow the non-Jewish Arab refugees in their own country to return to their homes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:09 AM

Bobert, do you have any quotes or excerpts from Khalidi's book that can help us understand where he's getting that 4,000,000 number?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:22 AM

Ok, I've got it figured out. Bobert, that 4,000,000 figure is for the number of Palestinians who currently live in refugee camps, not for the number who fled during the Nakba. Google "million palestinian refugees" (without the quotes), and a whole lot of information comes up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:32 AM

I also dispute the idea that all of the Moslims who fled the Israel did so exclusively because of the actions of Jews. A number ( "some") left because they were ordered to by the Arab League, to get out of the way of Arab armies, with the promise they would get ALL of Palestine once the Jews were driven into the sea.

So, if we look at the numbers, there are LESS hen the number of claimed Arab Moslim refugees that can be attributted to Israel, and more that are are the responsibility of the Arab Nations.


You want to continue to haggle over the numbers?


"We know that Israel engaged in acts of terrorism in Arab countries in order to create an untenable situation for the Jews in those countries so they would have to leave. "

This is a claim that may be true in some cases, but the number of such acts and the number of Jews affected has NOT been shown- so, like the number of children sold by Jewish criminals, how can you count them?

Why is it that ALL the non-determined numbers are against Israel, and NEVER against the Palestinian Arab numbers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:41 AM

It seems to me that Zionists and pro Zionist commentators are getting increasingly worried that they are losing the battle of ideas over the question of Israel/Palestine.

Sixty years after the founding of Israel the stain of the expulsion of the Palestinian people from their homeland continues to spread.

And we have seen what the Zionist programme has meant for the Palestinian people and the peoples of neighbouring countries.
For the Palestinians it has meant mass murder in places like Deir Yassim as the Israeli state was founded.It has meant the occupation and theft of Palestinian land and the eradication of hundreds of Palestinian villages with the systematic attempt to eradicate them from their land and history.

There have been decades of military attacks on Palestinian civilians and refugees and massacres directed by the Israeli military in Beirut and elsewhere.

There has been the continued attaempt to break the spirit of the Palestinians with mass arrests,the closure of Palestinian universities ,the endless checkpoints, the torture of prisoners, the theft of precious water and the building of the huge Apartheid Wall.

After 60 years of this display of military might and the backing of the US a person would think that the future of Israel is rosy.

How come then it is a society which has turned in on itself as it seeks to justify its racism,its oppression,its petty and vindictive cruelties and its military swagger?

Last year it was stopped in its tracks by handfuls of Hezbollah fighters in the hills of South Lebanon but not before it had made a determined attempt to wipe out the civilian infrastructure of that country.
Today it is throttling poor starving Gaza but still it cannot bring the Palestinian Gazans led by Hamas to heel.
And with Mubharrak in Egypy looking like an over the hill thug and the debacle in Iraq the future of the whole Middle East and Israel's role as America's attack dog there is in turmoil.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:24 AM

Do I hear you right Bruce?

You wish to argue that the Palestinians left of their own accord, more or less? I am prepared to defend my country to the hilt, in general (sometimes not) but even I would not put that spin on 1948.

It seems to me beyond argument that the state of Israel was unlawfully established on Palestinian land.

This does not of course justify all actions thereafter against Israel, or against Jews, but it should inform the reaction to the actions of (some) Jews and/or Israel against some or all of: -

Hamas
Other Gazans
Hezbollah
Other Lebanese
The Lebanon
Other Palestinians


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:42 AM

1. "You wish to argue that the Palestinians left of their own accord, more or less?"

NOT what I said.

"A number ( "some") left because they were ordered to by the Arab League, to get out of the way of Arab armies, with the promise they would get ALL of Palestine once the Jews were driven into the sea."

TRUE OF FALSE- And when I give the quotes from the Arab League broadcasts you get to eat you keyboard.

2. "It seems to me beyond argument that the state of Israel was unlawfully established on Palestinian land"

It may seem like that to you, but please look at the San Remo conference and tell me what you think the Mandate Palestine was supposed to be ( hint "Jewish Homeland") . How much of the Mandate territory would you allow the Jews to have- give a percentage.

Britain was the party that decided on the two state solution- take it up with the Queen.

You are stating that the UN does not have the power to do what it did????


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:40 AM

The British Peel Commission proposed a Palestine divided between a Jewish and an Arab State...
The UN, the successor to the League of Nations, attempted to solve the dispute, creating the UNSCOP (UN Special Committee on Palestine) on May 15, 1947. After spending three months conducting hearings and general survey of the situation in Palestine, UNSCOP officially released its report on August 31. A majority of nations (Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay) recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, with Jerusalem to be placed under international administration. A minority (India, Iran, Yugoslavia) supported the creation of a single federal state containing both Jewish and Arab constituent states. Australia abstained. On November 29, the UN General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favour of the Partition Plan, while making some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal. Both the United States and Soviet Union agreed on the resolution. In addition, pressure was exerted on some small countries by Zionist sympathizers in the United States.[70] The five members of the Arab League who were voting members at the time voted against the Plan.
The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:49 AM

some source documents


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:50 AM

Like I said, BB...

If you don't like my source, who BTW is a noted author and professor at Columbia University, then either you or whomever you have found that you are nquoting on numbers, need to confront the good professor... Until then I'd be more inclined to believe a man with his credentials over some blogger with an ax to grind...

But as long as you hang on to your misinformation I don't see that much of anything you say about the Palestian situation can have much validity since it is based on faulty information...

Garbage in, garbage out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:57 AM

It has been brought to my attention that my lexdexia has kicked in... Make that number 1.3 Million dispalced...

Sorry if that has 'cuased any sleeplessless on anyone's part...

That's 1,300,000... The 4,000,000 is the number of refugees from the Iraq invasion...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:02 AM

( he must have used both feet to count this time...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:03 AM

Richard,

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949

"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25

The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:05 AM

So in other words YOUR CLAIM OF 4 MILLION was garbage.

1.3 million is an arguable number, but I will admit it is at least possible. Glad you apologized for the comments yopu made supporting the impossible number.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:06 AM

Like *I* saID, Bobert...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:11 AM

Yes, it was "indeed" garbage... Lexdexia is some interesting stuff...

Okay, bb, back to the original point, which was not the 4M or the 1.3M, which is simply stated that anyopne involved in the negoitiation of any settlement that is not accutely aware of the massive displacements is bound to not be successfull... That was and continues to the point...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:14 AM

Well I beleive in Palestinians and Christians alike and the way the that they are being treated by the Jews.

but that is between them and God


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:46 AM

Bobert,,


"Until then I'd be more inclined to believe a man with his credentials over some blogger with an ax to grind..."

And I would rather accept the census number that were made over some academic with an axe to grind. If you continue to accept figures without thought, ( as you have demonstrated) you only hurt your own arguements.


"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing."





******************************************************************************************
official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel
******************************************************************************************


AND I allowed for 640,000 ( about 155,000 remained in Israel and MAY have been displaced- so I added 100,000 in an attempt to be fair)


SO, about those Jewish refugees....

"anyone involved in the negoitiation of any settlement that is not accutely aware of the massive displacements is bound to not be successfull... That was and continues to the point... "


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:55 AM

I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948

The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952

The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951

Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963

"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948

"The Arab exodus from other villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews"
- Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953

"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949

"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa.""
- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz

"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."
- Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14

"the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963

"...our city flourished and developed for the good of both Jewish and Arab residents ... Do not destroy your homes with your own hands; do not bring tragedy upon yourselves by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens. By moving out you will be overtaken by poverty and humiliation. But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace, for you and your families."
The Haifa Workers' Council bulletin, 28 April 1948

"...the Jewish hagana asked (using loudspeakers) Arabs to remain at their homes but the most of the Arab population followed their leaders who asked them to leave the country."
The TIMES of London, reporting events of 22.4.48

" The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.
...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families."

- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948

"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]

"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."
- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957
One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.
Commentary Magazine -- January 2000, http://www.commentarymagazine.com/0001/letters.html

****************************************************************************************

So, I think I am safe in saying that ""A number ( "some") left because they were ordered to by the Arab League, to get out of the way of Arab armies, with the promise they would get ALL of Palestine once the Jews were driven into the sea."


OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:59 AM

More numbers, Bobert...

"Estimates of the number of Arabs who fled the newly-created State of Israel in 1948 (i.e. from the area inside Israel's pre-1967 borders) vary from 430,000 to 957,000, depending on who you ask. The most reliable figure appears to be 539,000.
In the 1967 Six Day War, between 125,000 (Israeli estimate) and 250,000 (UNRWA estimate) Arabs fled from Judea, Samaria and Gaza, which came under Israeli administration. Of these, say some researchers, close on two-thirds were first-time refugees, the others were refugees from 1948 who fled once again.

According to the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA), in 1996 the number of refugees stood at 3.3 million, located as follows:

Jordan: In 10 camps - 242,922. Not in camps - 1.1 million

Judea and Samaria: In 20 camps - 147,302. Not in camps - 385,136

Gaza: In five camps - 378,279. Not in camps - 338,651

Lebanon: In 12 camps - 182,731. Not in camps - 169,937

Syria: In 10 camps - 89,472. Not in camps - 257, 919

TOTAL: In 57 camps - 1.04 million. Not in camps - 2.26 million.

- Middle East Digest - October 1998

The refugee problem was created in 1947-48, when the Palestinians and their Arab allies rejected United Nations Resolution 181 and tried to prevent by force implementation of the partition plan that called for the creation of a Jewish state alongside an Arab state in Palestine. During the fighting, 600,000 to 700,000 Arabs fled or were driven out of areas that eventually became the state of Israel. (There were also about 17,000 Jewish refugees who fled or were driven out of areas that came under Arab, i.e., Jordanian, control.) Israel's record in this chain of developments was far from spotless. But the major reason for the displacement of people was the war itself, which the Arabs imposed on Israel in an attempt to abort its birth.
The Palestinian refugees were but one example among many of the large-scale involuntary population displacements that took place during and after the First World War. Most of the other refugee problems, involving tens of millions of Karelian Finns, Sudeten Germans, and Muslims and Hindus in the Indian subcontinent, faded away as displaced populations were absorbed in countries of similar religious and/or national character. The one glaring exception was the Palestinian refugees, who found shelter but few civic or political rights in neighbouring Arab countries (Jordan being the main exception).

The refugee status of the Palestinians was perpetuated by the host countries and the Palestinian leadership, and by the international community, through the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), the only UN body dedicated to a specific refugee group (all other refugees in the world are the responsibility of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees). As a result, refugee status was passed down from father to son to grandson over 50 years, so that, today, they number three million to four million. That is why the Palestinians now account for about one-fourth of the world's refugees -- an impressive figure until one imagines how many refugees there would be if all the Finns and Germans and Indian Hindus and Muslims and European Jews who were made refugees after the Second World War (not to speak of the Greeks and Turks and Armenians who were made refugees during and after the First World War) were still considered refugees in the year 2000.

- Mark Heller, co-author of No Trumpets, No Drums: A Two-State Settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

With regard to the Palestinian refugees today, according to the "Report of the Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East - 1 July 1997 - 30 June 1998" there were 3,521,130 refugees as of June 30, 1998 (Table 1). However, the report (available at www.unrwa.org) also states that:
UNRWA registration figures are based on information voluntarily supplied by refugees primarily for the purpose of obtaining access to Agency services, and hence cannot be considered statistically valid demographic data; the number of registered refugees present in the Agency's area of operations is almost certainly less that the population recorded.
Moreover, not only does the UN admit the figures are of doubtful accuracy, there being obvious reason for families to claim more members and thereby receive more aid, the UN also admits that the total includes 1,463,064 Jordanian citizens, who cannot by any stretch be considered refugees.
- Alexander Safian, PhD, CAMERA (The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:10 AM

To give another viewpoint besides YOUR noted author,...



"Even more pertinent: No Arab spokesman made such a charge. At the height of the flight, the Palestinian Arabs' chief representative at the United Nations, Jamal Husseini, made a long political statement (on April 27) that was not lacking in hostility toward the Zionists; he did not mention refugees. Three weeks later (while the flight was still in progress) the secretary-general of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, made a fiercely worded political statement on Palestine; it contained not a word about refugees.

Why did they leave? Monsignor George Hakim, then Greek Catholic bishop of Galilee, the leading Christian personality in Palestine for many years, told a Beirut newspaper, Sada al-Janub, in the summer of 1948: "The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the `Zionist gangs' very quickly, and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."

The initiative for the flight was indeed no secret. One of the famous American newspapermen of the time, Kenneth Bilby, who had covered Palestine for years, explained the Arab leaders' rationale for the flight in his book New Star in the East, published in 1950: "Let the Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab countries to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea."

There is also the piquant report in the files of the British police at Haifa, of how the leaders of the Jewish community pleaded with the leaders of the Arab community not to leave Haifa, and how the Arabs refused. There is too, in the annals of the UN Security Council, a speech by Jamal Husseini heaping praise on the Arabs of Haifa for refusing to stay put and insisting adamantly on leaving their homes. The British police then kindly provided transport and helped the Haifa Arabs across the Lebanese and Transjordanian borders.

When, four months after the invasion, the prospect of the flightlings' retuning "in a few weeks" had faded, there were some recriminations. Emil Ghoury, a member of the Palestinian Arabs' national leadership, said in an interview with the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph: "I don't want to impugn anybody, but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state.

"The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem."

The policy adopted inside the country was emphasized by the leaders of the invasion. The prime minister of Iraq, Nuri Said, thundered: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."

One of the Arabs who fled later succinctly summarized the story of the refugees in the Jordanian newspaper Al-Difaa: "The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."

Later, after the fighting began, many Arab villagers who believed the false rumors of a massacre at the village of Deir Yassin "panicked and fled ignominiously before they were threatened by the progress of the war." So wrote the British general Sir John Glubb, who commanded the Transjordanian army. Throughout the war there were two incidents - at Ramle and Lod - in which a number of Arab civilians were driven out of their homes by Israeli soldiers."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:34 AM

I'm glad that the 'facts' were limited by those quotation marks!

"No two historians ever agree on what happened, and the damn thing is they both think they're telling the truth." Harry S. Truman.

'History, and different perceptions of history, are perhaps the most important factors in the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Accounts of history, interpreting history in different ways, are used to justify claims and to negate claims, to vilify the enemy and to glorify "our own" side.'

So, what do we actually 'know;?

The Palestine refugee problem was created in the course of the 1948 Israeli War of Independence

The war was won by Israel, creating a large number of Arab refugees. Estimates vary from about 520,000 (Israeli sources) to 726,000 (UN sources) to over 800,000 (Arab sources) refugees

This number has grown to include over 4.6 million displaced persons, about 3.7 million of whom are currently registered as refugees with the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees). Of these, somewhat over a million live in camps run by the UNRWA

Generally, refugees living in the camps live in conditions of abject poverty and overcrowding.

Israel views the 1948 refugees as hostile persons sympathetic with a belligerent aggressor, and passed a law forbidding their return, and assigning all their land holdings to a custodian of absentee property.

The central practical issue regarding the refugees is the right of return claimed by the Palestinians. UN General Assembly Resolution 194 stated "the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date." Resolution 194 further stated that those refugees who do not wish to return are entitled to compensation for properties lost under international law and equity.

The Arab states do not want the refugees. With the exception of Jordan, they are unwilling to give them citizenship. The territory that might be allocated to the Palestinian state, about two thousand, two hundred square miles, is probably too small to house all of them adequately.
Israel and the Palestinian areas both have extremely high population densities - over 300 persons per square kilometer in Israel and over 500 per square kilometer in the occupied territories, including over a million refugees.

These are simple 'facts' the numbers represent thousands of personal 'tragedies.

It would be useful here to discuss ways of resolving the refugee problem not continue to dispute the age old differing perspectives of history as to whether they fled or were forced to flee - there is plenty of 'evidence' and 'facts' to support both view points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:38 AM

Agreed.

"UN General Assembly Resolution 194 stated "the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date." Resolution 194 further stated that those refugees who do not wish to return are entitled to compensation for properties lost under international law and equity. "

This applies to the greater number of Arab Jewish refugees as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 09:45 AM

"Estimates vary from about 520,000 (Israeli sources) to 726,000 (UN sources) to over 800,000 (Arab sources) refugees"

MAXIMUM estimates- there are lower ones for all three sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:07 AM

bb lets just stick with the UN figures for starters....

There were a number of interim estimates however, according to the Final Report of the United Nations Economic Survey Mission for the Middle East published by the United Nations Conciliation Commission, December 28, 1949 the number is given, as I noted, as 726,000

Perhaps you could also state the source of your 'facts'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:10 AM

beardedbruce - PM
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:49 AM

some source documents


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:16 AM

The official Isreali Govt figure in 1948 is 520,000 (as I quoted) and 590,000 in 1992

Source

Based on the full text of a report prepared by the Israeli Foreign Ministry and published in translation by the East Jerusalem daily Al-Quds, 10 September 1992.

on which 'source documents' do you base your 'facts'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:27 AM

the Palestinian sources I refer to come from

Hagopian, Edward and A.B. Zahlen, "Palestine's Arab Population," Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. III, Walid Khalidi et al., eds., 1974, pp. 32-73.

and

Khalidi, Walid et al., eds., All that Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948, 1992, Appendix III, p. 582.

In mid 1946 the figure is given as 714,150 - 744,150
cited source -

Said, Edward et al., A Profile of the Palestinian People, Third Ed, 1990, p. 6; Abu-Lughod, Janet, "The Demographic Transformation of Palestine," in Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine, 1971, pp. 139-63.

Could I once more request the source of your 'facts


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:31 AM

various sources, giving various numbers. I will go with 640,000 for the reasons I stated earlier- it allows for a number of internal relocations as well as the census supported UN numbers.


I will at least pick numbers that are within the range of actual populations.


And YOUR source for the number of Jews driven out of Arab nations?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:56 AM

I don't believe I actually gave any indication of numbers however the Jewish refugees include a number of Jews evacuated from their homes in Palestine/Israel, and a much larger number of Jews who fled Arab countries.

The Jews of Jerusalem, and those of Gush Etzion, Atarot, Neve Yaakov and kibbutzim in the Gaza strip were forced to evacuate their homes and leave their property without compensation. The total number of such persons might have been under 10,000. They are more numerous if dependents are included.

In most cases, Jews were not allowed to take out their property, and in many cases they were forced to leave.

This Exodus did not take place all at once in 1948 in all countries.

Post 1948
In Egypt, Jews lingered on until they were forced to leave after the 6-Day war in 1967.

Not all of the Jews who left Arab or Muslim countries may be considered refugees, but over 600,000 were apparently forced to leave without their property and could be defined therefore as refugees.
In addition there were about 100,000 Jews in Iran in 1948. At the time of the Khomeini revolution in 1979, there were about 80,000. About 55,000 found life impossible under the Islamist revolution and fled Iran, leaving abut 25,000 in 2004

source
The Forgotten Refugees:
Jews From Arab Lands
By ADA AHARONI and ALAIN ALBAGLI

Jewish Population of Arab Countries *
   
856,000 1948
475,050 1958
72,600 1968
32,190 1976
7,800   2001

*Copyright 2006, by MidEastWeb for Coexistence


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:04 AM

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
seems a reasonable start on Arab refugee numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:06 AM

Earlier, either here or in the Obama thread I gave a by nation list for the Jewish refugees. ( with source material, I believe)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:19 AM

I note your souurce bb and the proviso it contains

'IMPORTANT NOTE

Many of the figures presented on this page must be incorrect, because they conflict with other reports. The purpose of showing these data is to examine the discrepancies. It is an abuse of the intent of this essay, and it is intellectually dishonest, to post one table or set of figures from this page in isolation, and to use those numbers to "prove" a political point about Jewish or Arab rights in Palestine.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:22 AM

it is intellectually dishonest, to post one table or set of figures from Any source in isolation, and to use those numbers to "prove" a political point about Jewish or Arab rights in Palestine.

i have tried to look at all sources, and evaluate the reasoning and source numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:45 AM

Nevertheless the 'fact' remains that refugee camps currently house around one third of all registered Palestinian refugees**

**The UNRWA defines a Palestinian refugee as:

"persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War."

UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948.

The number of registered Palestine refugees has subsequently grown from 914,000 in 1950 to more than 4.3 million in 2005 and continues to rise due to natural population growth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:48 AM

As does the number of Arab Jewish refugees.

The point is, do we look for a solution both sides can accept, or insist that one side bear the entire burden?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:18 PM

I agree a solution must be found.

'the time has come to engage in a sulha and to stop killing one another.'
Prof Aharoni, a professor of sociology in Israel and abroad, and president of the World Congress of Egyptian Jews

Reconciliation, possibly along the path of the South African experience, is one solution.

This is not the short term 'fix' of the 'two nation state'

'after four decades of intensive Jewish settlement in the Palestinian territories it occupied during the 1967 war -- Israel has irreversibly cemented its grip on the land on which a Palestinian state might have been created.'

Two populations inhabit one piece of land and, if the land cannot be divided, it must be shared. Equally.

from Los angeles Times article
May 2008


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:25 PM

Hope?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:25 PM

A number ( "some") left because they were ordered to by the Arab League, to get out of the way of Arab armies, with the promise they would get ALL of Palestine once the Jews were driven into the sea.

We happen to know that this is a lie that was concocted for public relations purposes by the leaders of Israel. It's also a huge libel against the Palestinians who were the victims of a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:32 PM

This is a claim that may be true in some cases, but the number of such acts and the number of Jews affected has NOT been shown- so, like the number of children sold by Jewish criminals, how can you count them?

I didn't say we had a hard and fast number for this. It's true that we don't know how many fled because of Israeli activities and how many fled because of problems not related to Israeli activities.

For this reason, it's not really possible to determine in every case, who was responsible for the Jewish refugees, and also for this reason, it's not accurate to say try to fix blame on the countries from which the Jews fled. It's not accurate to try to fix blame on either Israel or these countries. We simply don't know.

In the case of the Palestinian refugees, however, we do know who is responsible. We know that there was a systematic and brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing waged against the Palestinians, causing many hundreds of thousands to flee their homes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:37 PM

CarolC,

"We happen to know that this is a lie that was concocted for public relations purposes by the leaders of Israel."

WE know nothing of the kind- did you even look at the citations I put up, and WHO said them???



" It's also a huge libel against the Palestinians who were the victims of a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing."

As much a libel as your accusations about Israel being the cause of the 6-day war? You seem to think it a libel if anyone disagrees with you- So I will now call it a libel when you say something I disagree with. I have not seen what I would consider any proof of your accusations, yet I have seen quotes from both outside observers and Palestinian Moslims about the Arab League telling them to get out of the way of the Arab armies and then they would get the land that the Jews had.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:42 PM

We know that the Arab League told them to leave their homes.


You can't revise history. There are report, by anti-Jewish parties, as well as neutral observers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:50 PM

WE know nothing of the kind- did you even look at the citations I put up, and WHO said them???

Beardedbruce, hundreds of thousands of them had already been ethnically cleansed months before Israel even declared its independence, and before they were supposed to have been warned by "the Arabs" to temporarily leave.

Secondly, the Arab armies did not fight in any areas that had been given to the Jews in the partition plan, with the exception of a small part of Old Jerusalem. So the only Israelis they were fighting to clear out were the ones who were in the process of taking, by force, land that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:47 PM

BUT!
leaving aside who DID what and to who where do we go from here?

There is hope from within from movements like Ta'ayush ("living together"), an Israeli-Palestinian grassroots movement against Israeli military occupation of Palestinian land.

Prof. Gadi Algazi, a co founder of the movement (who spent 10 months in a military prison before he was released as a result of public outcry) has observed the Israeli tower-and-stockade surveillance is strangling Palestinians living in the so-called "Seam Zone." This is the confiscated area between the Israeli side of the wall and the Green Line.

He points out that most of the 12,000 Palestinians living in this no-man's-land are 1948 refugees and their descendants, who have no access to schools, clinics or markets. They must apply for permission to remain in their unrecognized villages, which receive no electricity or water.

"The apartheid system thrives on details," he stressed. "Exhaustive forms must be filled out by everyone over age 12. They ask such intrusive questions as what do you study, who is your teacher, why do you want to sleep in your village?"

"The Wall has created the world's largest open air prison without guards," Algazi noted.

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, April 2004,

Three times the height of the Berlin Wall and proposed to run the eqivalent of london to Zurich!

meanwhile..... Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has stated

I will not agree to accept any kind of Israeli responsibility for the refugees. Full stop."
Then he added: "I don't think we should accept any kind of responsibility for the creation of this problem. Full stop."

He said the return of even one Palestinian refugee to Israel was "out of the question."

quoted in 2007

How to reconcile the irreconcilable - where to start.....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:08 PM

This is how we do it - right here. By raising awareness of the problem.

These guys (who, in my opinion, are some of the biggest heroes in the world right now) are saying, and I believe they are one hundred percent right about this, that the way to do it is to continue to speak out and continue to raise awareness about this, until the public outcry is too great to be ignored any longer. These two former members of the Israeli military are saying that this situation is driven by public opinion in the United States and Israel. They believe that most people in both countries would not stand for what is going on if they knew the truth of what is being done to the Palestinians. When public opinion in the US against apartheid is too strong to ignore any longer, that's when the leaders of both the US and Israel will be forced to correct the problem. Until then, nothing will be done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=related


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:24 PM

Much has been said on mudcat about the situation in Ireland.

'Imagine if, after an IRA bombing, a British prime minister declared Catholic areas in Northern Ireland to be hostile territory, and threatened to reduce or cut off goods, water, fuel and electricity supplies.'

'Collective starvation is being used as a political tool of pressure. One Israeli official admitted: "It is meant to be used as leverage on the civilian population, to pressure the Hamas regime over the Qassam fire."

'The World Food Programme lists it as a global hunger hotspot. Out of its 1.5 million residents, 1.1 million have to survive on food handouts. The Israeli journalist, Amira Hass, describes Gazans as being imprisoned in "an enclosed space like battery hens".'

'British government ministers condemn boycotts of Israel, but cannot even muster a word of condemnation of Israeli practices that actually endanger hundreds of thousands of lives. The hypocrisy is not lost on millions of Arabs and Muslims.'

'... this crushing of Gaza will continue to bolster Hamas's support as well as those who will make Hamas seem like the good guys'

From Life behind the wire by Chris Doyle director of the Council for Arab-British Understanding.

Greater 'understanding' is needed urgently


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:53 PM

This video is also worth watching for a better understanding of what life is like for Palestinians under Israeli military occupation. It was made a few years ago, but the checkpoint situation has not improved for them since then...

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Part Four

Part Five

Part Six


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:11 PM

There needs to be a homeland for Palestinians. There also is a homeland for Jews. The various Arab neighbours need to fuck off because they have done nothing to help. And in fact, the US needs to fuck off, too. HOWEVER, unless the only security Israel can have is the possession of nuclear weapons and the will to use them, then there is NO percentage in Israel agreeing to anything in the Middle East. As long as people continue to say crap like 'Israel started the 1967 war', there will be no agreement. Not here, not there.

Arab and Muslim governments--spokesmen for those governments or Hezbollah-type groups--have said things like 'anhilation of Israel', 'wipe it from the map', and other rhetoric which boils down to killing 5,000,000 Israelis. To say that that is not what they meant is simply bullshit.

If the only way people here can see a resolution to the problem as being Israel doing all the given, the problem will not get resolved.

I have yet to see the same vehement hatred that is directed at Israel being directed at Hezbollah or Hamas. When it is, it is couched in terms such that "well, if the Israelis hadn't done such-and-such, then these groups wouldn't have been necessary", and that is just justification for psychopaths to continue killing civilians, and when Israeli civilians get killed by rockets or suicide bombers, guess what? They respond. And guess what else? As long as this sort of rhetorical crap is perpetuated, there will be NO peace in the Middle East because there is not one good reason for Israel to pursue peace. To the Palestinians it is about a homeland. To the Israelis, it is about survival. Jews ahve been left to the mercy of countries before: Poland, Ukraine, France, etc. They were slaughtered. Denmark refused to play the game. Danish Jews were saved.

So while you folks get all teary-eyed about displaced people, save some of those tears for the other displaced people. And until such time as you demonstrate in your posts that what you seek is a solution for humans, not just Palestinian humans, I will contine to read your posts with disdain, and there will be no common ground here, either.

I respect that you have views. Respect that they are not the only views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:16 PM

"philistines - Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary :

(Gen. 10:14, R.V.; but in A.V., "Philistim"), a tribe allied to
the Phoenicians. They were a branch of the primitive race which
spread over the whole district of the Lebanon and the valley of
the Jordan, and Crete and other Mediterranean islands. Some
suppose them to have been a branch of the Rephaim (2 Sam.
21:16-22). In the time of Abraham they inhabited the south-west
of Judea, Abimelech of Gerar being their king (Gen. 21:32, 34;
26:1). They are, however, not noticed among the Canaanitish
tribes mentioned in the Pentateuch. They are spoken of by Amos
(9:7) and Jeremiah (47:4) as from Caphtor, i.e., probably Crete,
or, as some think, the Delta of Egypt. In the whole record from
Exodus to Samuel they are represented as inhabiting the tract of
country which lay between Judea and Egypt (Ex. 13:17; 15:14, 15;
Josh. 13:3; 1 Sam. 4).

    This powerful tribe made frequent incursions against the
Hebrews. There was almost perpetual war between them. They
sometimes held the tribes, especially the southern tribes, in
degrading servitude (Judg. 15:11; 1 Sam. 13:19-22); at other
times they were defeated with great slaughter (1 Sam. 14:1-47;
17). These hostilities did not cease till the time of Hezekiah
(2 Kings 18:8), when they were entirely subdued. They still,
however, occupied their territory, and always showed their old
hatred to Israel (Ezek. 25:15-17). They were finally conquered
by the Romans.

    The Philistines are called Pulsata or Pulista on the Egyptian
monuments; the land of the Philistines (Philistia) being termed
Palastu and Pilista in the Assyrian inscriptions. They occupied
the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, in
the south-western corner of Canaan, which belonged to Egypt up
to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty. The occupation
took place during the reign of Rameses III. of the Twentieth
Dynasty. The Philistines had formed part of the great naval
confederacy which attacked Egypt, but were eventually repulsed
by that Pharaoh, who, however, could not dislodge them from
their settlements in Palestine. As they did not enter Palestine
till the time of the Exodus, the use of the name Philistines in
Gen. 26:1 must be proleptic. Indeed the country was properly
Gerar, as in ch. 20.

    They are called Allophyli, "foreigners," in the Septuagint,
and in the Books of Samuel they are spoken of as uncircumcised.
It would therefore appear that they were not of the Semitic
race, though after their establishment in Canaan they adopted
the Semitic language of the country. We learn from the Old
Testament that they came from Caphtor, usually supposed to be
Crete. From Philistia the name of the land of the Philistines
came to be extended to the whole of "Palestine."
Many scholars
identify the Philistines with the Pelethites of 2 Sam. 8:18."
 


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:16 PM

One more thing, and then I am off this thread. If the intent has been to drive some Jewish mudcatters away, it worked. Some have left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:33 PM

You keep characterizing it as hatred for Israel. That's total bullshit, designed to malign and smear people who are fighting for human rights for Palestinians, in an effort to try to silence them. One doesn't have to hate Israel in order to try to stop if from doing what it's doing to people, any more than one had to hate the United States to try to stop it from practicing slavery, or its own version of apartheid in the past. Racism is racism, regardless of who is practicing it, or whom they are practicing it on.

Israel did start the 1967 war, and the reason it is of the utmost importance to bring this to the awareness of people is because Israel is using its fiction about '67 being for them a defensive war in order to say that they were legally entitled to take land by conquest. As long as Israel is allowed to provoke wars with its neighbors and then take their land by conquest, there will never be peace in the region, and there will never be peace for the Israelis.

The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is ongoing, as is the ethnic cleansing of the non-Jewish Israeli Arabs. This situation, and the denial of any kind of rights basic or otherwise for the Palestinians, is going to have to be corrected before anything else takes place. The ethnic cleansing, begun before Israel declared its independence, is the precipitating event. And every war of conquest that Israel has conducted since then has only served to make the problem worse. The government of Israel has not abandoned its plans to increase its territory far beyond what it is even today. There will be no hope for peace in the region (or in much of the rest of the world) until this stops.

All of the governments of the countries in the Middle East have said that they will recognize Israel's right to live in peace and security if Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. And they have international law and the UN charter to back them up in this stance.

You can support ethnic cleansing and apartheid if you want, but that will hardly put you in a position to point fingers at others about hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:37 PM

If some Jewish Mudcatters feel a need to leave because there are people in the Mudcat who believe that Palestinians are human being, too, then it is their own personal failings that are causing them to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:48 PM

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary is not an historical text.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:14 PM

'Contrary to the propaganda put out by Israel's supporters, Israel is NOT supported by the majority of the world's Jewish people. Ariel Sharon does not speak for all Jewish people. And being anti-Israel is not "anti-Semitic"'

Jews against Zionism

'There's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in'
Leonard Cohen

I have Jewish ancestry and I'm not leaving this debate!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:18 PM

"You can support ethnic cleansing and apartheid if you want,"

I don't, and fuck you for saying that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:20 PM

'For my mother and father, Judaism meant bearing witness, raging against injustice and foregoing silence.

It meant compassion, tolerance and rescue.

These were the ultimate Jewish values'

Sarah Roy, daughter of Holocaust survivors


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:26 PM

I don't, and fuck you for saying that.

And yet you think you are entitled to tell others what they feel and believe (telling them that they hate Israel and in other threads, that they hate Jews).

You are no more in a position to tell others what is in their hearts then they are to tell you what is in yours. If you don't like taking it, stop dishing it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:30 PM

''Israel is NOT supported by the majority of the world's Jewish people."

A quick calculation (by me) suggests that, for that statement to be true, that at least 85% of the Jews living outside of Israel do not want that state to exist. Either that, or many Jewish citizens living within Israel want their own country to be dissolved.

Emma B: you are a nut case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:31 PM

I am telling no one what to say. I stated a position. You then said, in your usual manner, that I support ethnic cleansing and apartheid, which I don't. You attack me and you get it back.

You support Hezbollah and Hamas. Does that mean I should think you support the ethnic cleansing of Jews? I don't believe that of you nor would I say it. The 'fuck you' stands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Peace, I dislike intensly what the American government has done but appreciate that it has also been against the wishes of many good Americans and dear friends.

I have spoken out and demonstrated against the decisions of my own government in the illegal invasion of Iraq.

I was an active member of the Anti-Apartheid organization, as were many white South Africans.

I have posted statements by dissenters within the Israeli state as opposed as I am to the inhumanity of Gaza.

Shalom
'Em'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:41 PM

The Zionists on Mudcat really don't like being told the truth about the situation in Israel/Palestine, hence the abusive language and the growing hysteria.
Its a bit like that in Israel where internal scandal after scandal and the daily resistance of the Palestinians is having a big effect on the Israeli leadership.They can't see a way out that doesn't involve more ethnic cleansing and oppression.
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:47 PM

I am telling no one what to say. I stated a position. You then said, in your usual manner, that I support ethnic cleansing and apartheid, which I don't. You attack me and you get it back.

In your usual manner of practicing bullying smear tactics to silence those who are working for human rights for Palestinians, you are characterizing them as being people who hate Israel and also in other threads, people who hate Jews. This is a lie and a libel.

You support Hezbollah and Hamas.

This is also a lie. You know as well as I do that even right here in this thread, I have said that Hamas has policies that are impossible to defend. I don't support any terrorist actions on the part of Hezbollah, but anything they do that is only for the purpose of keeping Israel from reoccupying Lebanon, I do support. So your "fuck you" is as much hot air as your libelous accusations that people who work for human rights for Palestinians are Israel haters and Jew haters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:50 PM

Yes, no-one had the right to create a new Jewish homeland on the land of other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:50 PM

It would be refreshing to see some of the peaceful folks here speak as loudly against Hezbollah and Hamas.

I don't doubt you mean what you say, Emma, nor do I doubt your integrity. Does it also extend to admonitions against Hezbollah and Hamas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:51 PM

"Yes, no-one had the right to create a new Jewish homeland on the land of other people."

If you are addressing pre-1967 borders, I could agree with you. Is that what you mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:53 PM

Peace - yes!

Show me where I have defended Hamas except to ackmowledge them as the democratically elected government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It would be refreshing to see some of the peaceful folks here speak as loudly against Hezbollah and Hamas.

Hezbollah and Hamas will disappear after Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 borders. So a vote to end the occupation is also a vote to end Hezbollah and Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:59 PM

Actually, Hezbollah will disappear after Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 borders and releases the ten thousand or so Palestinians and Lebanese who have been languishing in Israeli prisons for years with no trial, no convictions, and no access to any kind of justice at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:02 PM

may I repeat a quote made a little ealier....

'Just as Israel's bombing of Lebanon last summer failed to compel Lebanese to turn against Hizbullah,

'... this crushing of Gaza will continue to bolster Hamas's support as well as those who will make Hamas seem like the good guys'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,let the jewish & arab women rule in middle e
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:05 PM

One of the bravest women in the Middle East, indeed, the world.

Wafa Sultan talking to Tovia on Israel National Radio

This is the TV interview that sparked off the Radio interview above.


Wafa Sultan Speaks Out


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:06 PM

Tel Aviv (dpa) - In Israel, the number of emigrants exceeded the number of immigrants for the first time in 20 years, the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot reported Friday 04/20/2007

Almost half of the country's young people were thinking of leaving the country, the report said.

Their reasons included dissatisfaction with the government, the education system, a lack of confidence in the political ruling class and concern over the security situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:09 PM

"Show me where I have defended Hamas except to ackmowledge them as the democratically elected government."

Don't pull a CarolC. I have never said you defended Hamas or Hezbollah. The question I asked is have you ever condemned them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:14 PM

Have I ever condemned then on a thread here - no I don't think so.

But then I only joined this thread recently against my better judgement as I know that my opinions will not endear me to some people who I also respect.

However may I rectify that here and now and put it in writing that I do not support any Holocaust denial from whatever quarter it comes from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:16 PM

The Christian Palestinians are suffering just as much because of the occupation as the Muslim Palestinians are, GUEST 18 May 08 - 05:05 PM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QHzuYcuIQY&feature=related


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:17 PM

I'm listening to that lady who was linked to by the Guest (let the women rule, etc), and she nails it in one. Brilliant gal. I hope others listen to it and maybe internalizes what this gal is saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:19 PM

There ain't too much left to say after listening to Wafa Sultan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Jewish/Arab woman again
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:20 PM

Listen to Wafa talking about the Jewish people and how they have become her friends:

Wafa Sultan interview on Israel National Radio - Part Two

And after that, maybe you should all shake hands and give each other a hug, because it's starting to sound like the Middle East itself inside this thread.

We are all ONE people, Mudcatters too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:21 PM

I'm listening to that lady who was linked to by the Guest (let the women rule, etc), and she nails it in one.

Only if one forgets the Christian Palestinians, which it looks like a lot of people would like us to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:31 PM

That last post speaks louder than I ever could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:32 PM

Jewish/Arab women (etc)...

There are many Muslim and Christian Palestinians who consider Jews to be their friends. There are Jews living amongst the Palestinians in their villages (as equals, not as occupiers) and some are even married to Jews who live there with them. But that doesn't make living under a crushing military occupation, apartheid, and ongoing ethnic cleansing any easier for them. There are also many Jewish human rights workers who spend a lot of time in occupied Palestine, helping to protect the Palestinians from attacks from settlers. Hatred of Jews is not the problem in occupied Palestine. The occupation is the problem in occupied Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:36 PM

'All of a sudden, and out of obscurity, Sultan found herself the center of both attention and controversy. On the one hand, she became the darling of many right wing media pundits and mainly pro-Israel groups who viewed her as a beacon of reform that stood up to what was wrong with Islam and Muslims.

On the other hand, Muslims contended that by making broad, unfounded and ignorant proclamations about their faith, Sultan was nothing more than a pawn playing into the hands of Islamophobes, and an opportunist who intentionally pushed the divide between the Islamic world and the West to further ulterior motives that included fame, fortune and immortality.'

While Sultan's admirers have nothing but praise for her, detractors charge that many of her public claims do not corroborate with facts. Moreover, they assert that the reasons behind her rise to fame have more to do with her personal life than with her desire to reform Islam.

Adnan Halabi, a Syrian expatriate who met and got to know the Sultans when they first came to the United States, spoke at length about the Wafa Sultan that very few people know.

According to Halabi, Dr. Wafa Ahmad (her maiden name) arrived in California with her husband Moufid (now changed to David) in the late 80s on a tourist visa. Contrary to what she told the New York Times, they came as a couple, leaving their two children back in Syria.

As to the claim that her professor (thought to be Yusef Al-Yusef) was gunned down before her eyes in a faculty classroom at the University of Aleppo, Halabi said the incident never took place. "There was a professor who was killed around 1979, that is true, but it was off-campus and Sultan was not even around when it happened," he added

These same critics allege that Islamophobes are most certainly behind the likes of Sultan. They argue that the clip that made her famous was distributed by MEMRI, a media group that purports to independently translate and distribute news from the Middle East when in reality it is promoting a pro-Israeli slant. In an article titled, "Selective Memri," published on August 12, 2002 by the British newspaper The Guardian, investigative reporter Brian Whitaker wrote: "The stories selected by MEMRI for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel

Another feature of deliberate bias and media myopia, critics say, is the fact that the Al-Jazeera clip was edited intentionally "out of context" to reflect one single point of view and promote Sultan's arguments through American-style media sound bites, reducing the other debater to a mere punching bag.

In the transcript, Shaikh Ibrahim Al-Khouli responded by saying, "…here we must ask a question, who facilitated the conflict and indeed initiated it; is it the Muslims? Muslims now are in a defensive position fighting off an aggressor... who said Muslims were backward? They may be backward in terms of technological advances, but who said that such are the criteria for humanity? Muslims are more advanced on a human level, in terms of the values and principles they endorse." (Entire transcript can be viewed at:

http://www.aqoul.com/archives/2006/03/aljazeera_trans.php

Sultan's detractors include not only Muslims but members of the Jewish community as well. In an op-ed piece published in the Los Angeles Times (June 25, 2006) and titled "Islam's Ann Coulter," Rabbi Stephen Julius Stein at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, who attended a fundraiser for a local Jewish organization where Sultan was a speaker, wrote, "The more Sultan talked, the more evident it became that progress in the Muslim world was not her interest.... She never alluded to any healthy, peaceful Islamic alternative."

The rabbi mentioned that Judea Pearl, father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, "was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included 'verses of peace' that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were 'cultural baggage,' as are similar verses in the Torah."

He added, "Sultan's over-the-top, indefensible remarks at the fundraiser, along with her failure to mention the important, continuing efforts of the Islamic Center (of Southern California), insulted all Muslims and Jews in L.A. and throughout the nation who are trying to bridge the cultural gap between the two groups. And that's one reason why I eventually walked out of the event."

As to the reasons that may have pushed Sultan to be so outspoken and vocal against Islam in a post-9/11 world, Halabi sympathetically remarked, "Poverty. It drives people to sell their soul."

Sigh - seems everyone has an 'agenda'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:39 PM

"crushing military occupation, apartheid, and ongoing ethnic cleansing..."

Such words are the stuff of propaganda and are not to found in a serious discussion about 'facts' and 'solutions to problems'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:42 PM

Such words are the stuff of propaganda and are not to found in a serious discussion about 'facts' and 'solutions to problems'.

They happen to be the truth. Watch the videos I've already provided and you can see your yourself. I'll post some more, too, so there won't be any room for ambiguity about what "crushing occupation" means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:53 PM

'Selective Memri'

Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".

That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.

The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.

Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.

Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.

Col Carmon's co-founder at Memri is Meyrav Wurmser, who is also director of the centre for Middle East policy at the Indianapolis-based Hudson Institute, which bills itself as "America's premier source of applied research on enduring policy challenges".

Ms Wurmser is the author of an academic paper entitled Can Israel Survive Post-Zionism? in which she argues that leftwing Israeli intellectuals pose "more than a passing threat" to the state of Israel, undermining its soul and reducing its will for self-defence

It's a campaign that the Israeli government and American neo-conservatives have been pushing since early this year - one aspect of which was the bizarre anti-Saudi briefing at the Pentagon, hosted last month by Richard Perle.

To anyone who reads Arabic newspapers regularly, it should be obvious that the items highlighted by Memri are those that suit its agenda and are not representative of the newspapers' content as a whole.

The danger is that many of the senators, congressmen and "opinion formers" who don't read Arabic but receive Memri's emails may get the idea that these extreme examples are not only truly representative but also reflect the policies of Arab governments

Unfortunately, it is on the basis of such sweeping generalisations that much of American foreign policy is built these days.

As far as relations between the west and the Arab world are concerned, language is a barrier that perpetuates ignorance and can easily foster misunderstanding

Not everything is as it seems - especially posts from 'guests'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:02 PM

Islam's Ann Coulter
The seductive and blinkered belligerence of Wafa Sultan.
By Stephen Julius Stein, Los Angeles Times

STEPHEN JULIUS STEIN is a rabbi at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, where he also directs inter-religious programming.
June 25, 2006


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:06 PM

So we ignore her quest for a peaceful resolution and do what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Jewish/Arab woman
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:08 PM

Israel's destiny lies with Palestine
Palestine's destiny lies with Israel

They are inseparable, and they are the same species, human beings.

One World

Go to the borders, let the musicians of Israel and Palestine lead their people forward, then let them cross those borders, with their people. Let Jew dance with Palestinian and Palestinian dance with Jew, let them throw their labels away, let them unite their religions to become the Religion of Humanity and see what happens..

"I believe there is a God, but it doesn't mean that my God is greater than yours. It only means we all have the right to believe, 'cos nobody knows it for sure, if there's a heaven, or hell, or a sweet paradise, or a place where we all meet again, 'cos with minimal change everyone here is the same. We're living in One World.." (taken from 'One World' by Chris de Burgh

Wafa Sultan no doubt knew, when she spoke out, that her life would never be lived in peace again. She is currently living in hiding, following a fatwa being issued against her, in March this year.

Perhaps her detractors would care to have the courage of this woman, and put their lives on the line, as she has done, in order to speak words which should have been spoken so long ago. It is far easier to be the ones to criticise, than to be the one who has stood up against a world in denial.

And to those who have left Mudcat, I fervently hope that they will return, once the hurt from so many of these threads has settled.

Shalom-Inshallah


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:08 PM

How about this instead?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:12 PM

It sounds like we are supposed to worry about Emma B's opinion of somebody else giving an opinion about somebody else giving her opinion. On that rests the future of 7 million Israelis. Nice try, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:15 PM

Propaganda is popaganda whatever it's source and the 'source' of this is certainly suspect both factually ( "There was a professor who was killed around 1979, that is true, but it was off-campus and Sultan was not even around when it happened,") and in its origins the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri).

I think I have attempted to refure both racism and blatent Islamaphobia on a number of threads, I consider this is yet another example from an unknown 'guest'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:20 PM

"I think I have attempted to refure both racism and blatent Islamaphobia on a number of threads, I consider this is yet another example from an unknown 'guest'"

I notice you didn't attempt to refute Guest Albert. I look forward to your equally vehement refutation of Israelaphobia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:21 PM

Peace, I whole heartedly endorse the Daniel Pearl Foundation.

From the link I posted.......

Judea Pearl, an attendee and father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included "verses of peace" that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were "cultural baggage," as are similar verses in the Torah. Unfortunately, his words were drowned out by the cheers for Sultan's full-court press against Islam and Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:22 PM

In fact, I haven't seen too many people refute guest posters--as long as the guest agrees with their position. (I'm that way, too. Not perfect like a few folks here.) Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:26 PM

Peace, I have never posted in support of the Bush regime's decision to invade Iraq or deny universal health care to its citizens

I similarly will not endorse the actions (in regard of Gaza) of the Likud ruling party in the Knesset until hell freezes over - hope that answers your question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:29 PM

It certainly does. Tells me all I need to know. Thank you. So, it's OK to hate Israel's actions but not those of other countries in the region. Just wanted to be clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:33 PM

Peace, I believe I said I neither supported the Holocaust denial of Hammas or the policies of the Likud party in relation to Gaza.

Please don't put words in my mouth either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:37 PM

Then answer the question I asked earlier: Have you ever come out with a condemnation of Hamas and Hezbollah--specifically with regard to their rhetoric regarding Israel and Hezbollah's actions with regard to Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:37 PM

What Emma B does is kinda like "praising with faint damns".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:02 PM

This is how peace will be accomplished. Opening a window to the world on what is going on in occupied Palestine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsesMjWkAl8&feature=related


Literally crushing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOosOEFFyo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsXCbaN3Nw4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ixQix_Mys&feature=related


Emotionally and mentally crushing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBb2f1WEtiQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgySmIN3Uls&feature=related


Crushing opportunities for the future of Palestinian youth...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYyWg9Z8I7k&feature=related


Crushing bones...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6va41PCY_U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrJEaF0rhB0


Crushing spirits, crushing liberty, crushing human rights...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0fM58jBYzY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvE1YkbdPU&feature=related


Crushing livelihoods (and crushing bones in the first one)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEApSnFPIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jZSg0IJpiQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv9CY5-RKLg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTVNyXhxqFc


I posted this one already but I think it bears posting again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kem1ajIKv1k&feature=related


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:06 PM

Emma B, it seems to me, is TRYING to make sense of it all, and showing how both 'sides' have both bad & good claims.

If one 'condemns' one side, they really need to balance things and offer similar condemnations relating to the other side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:08 PM

They have to make it about you, Emma, because they are trying to defend the indefensible. You provide a handy way to divert attention away from the real issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:22 PM

It would be refreshing to see some of the peaceful folks here speak as loudly against Hezbollah and Hamas.

None of my tax money is being sent to Hezbollah and Hamas to help them kill people. A hell of a lot of my tax money is being sent to Israel to help them kill and ethnically cleanse people, wage wars on them, and deprive them of their basic human rights, making me complicit in these crimes. I not only have a right to speak out about it, but I have a responsibility to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:27 PM

. . . and yet more wind from the east.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:47 PM

You can make personal attacks, Peace, but it won't do you any good. The tide of humanity will overtake those who use such tactics to silence people who speak out on behalf of human rights for Palestinians. And when that happens, those who fought against it will look to all the world like the dinosaurs they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:02 PM

What shows about you is that you have no 'humanity' as you like to call it. You say nothing about Hezbollah and their attacks on civilians, Hamas and its stance that the Israelis must be driven away. You are useless to speak with because every thread you go to ends up the same. Carol fighting with anyone who expresses a different opinion. You made a personal attack on me which is what started mine back to you. So, say and do as you want, but don't expect to have your posts treated as sacrosanct. You ask questions and like to have them answered. I asked Emma a question and you then say people--meaning pdq and me I guess--are trying to make it about Emma. How so? Does that mean when you ask a question of others that you are trying to change the subject? Do you ever think before you post? You have one set of rules for yourself and another set for others. You don't want shit slung at you, don't sling it yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:08 AM

You started the personal attacks a couple of days ago by calling people who criticize Israel for its treatment of Palestinians, Israel haters and Jew haters. You've been using those kinds of bully tactics for a very long time to silence people who are working hard to help Palestinians gain their freedom and their rights. I don't focus on Hamas and Hezbollah because I know that focusing on them will not solve the problem. Removing the reason for the existance of Hamas and Hezbollah will solve the problem, and it will remove Hamas and Hezbollah. So that is what I am putting my energies into to try to help bring this about.

I don't speak out against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (as well as some of its other neighbors) just to criticize Israel. I do it because that's how this problem will be solved. By bringing the situation to the attention to as many people as possible. As the former Israeli soldiers in the video I posted said, it's US public opinion that drives this conflict or solves it. I have a responsibility as a tax payer in this country to work hard to try to help solve the problem, because my money is helping to create it.

But what you are doing and have been doing for a very long time is trying to silence people who are working to help the Palestinians, and by extension, also helping to remove the reason for the existence of Hamas and Hezbollah, and bring peace to the Middle East. And you do it by bullying them and making character assassinations against them. This tactic has been in use for a very long time, but it's losing its effectiveness as more and more people are able to see that what they've been told for so long are lies.

That's what happened to me in 2002. Prior to that time, I held the same beliefs about the Middle East as you and most everyone else. But that changed for me, and since 2002, when I first started talking about it, I've seen a steady and almost exponential increase in the number of people who are becoming aware of the reality in occupied Palestine and who can now see through the lies they've been told all their lives. The numbers of such people have grown so much that the difference is like night and day compared to 2002. And these people are Christians, Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions and of no religion.

The bully tactics just won't work any longer. The time has passed for that kind of thing. People will not be silenced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:12 AM

Sleep will do you more good than talkin' to me. Good night, Carol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:14 AM

It is very dificult to conduct a sane discussion with people who elevate the palestinian Arabs to a separate ethnic group. They are just plain Arabs. Most practice the same Suni Moslem religion and they speak Arabic.

I posted an article about the 'Philistines' whose name eventually became 'Palestinians' and gave that name to the Holy Lands. I was going to follow up that post with more information but things got off track a bit.

It appears that the ethnic Philistines (aka Palestinians) left with the Jews and followed Mose. The current unhappy folks who spend all their energy trying to destroy Israel go back no father than the period of Islamic conquests around 700 AD.

Even so, the area was almost empty by the end of the Turkish occupation from 1517 to 1917. Since then both Jews and Moslem Arabs have immigrated in large numbers, but many Arabs came only to share the wealth that the Jews brought.

Since WWII, many Arab countries have sent their most worthless people, the bottom of Arab society, to the area around Israel for the specific purpose of disrupting the Jewish state.They have been told that when Israel falls, the property and wealth the Jews enjoy will be theirs. These people are so radicalized after years of daily propaganda, where the Jews are held responsible for nearly all the Arab's problems, that thse people are no longer welcome in any Arab country because they most are no longer capable of productive work. They are only trained to protest and to fight Israel.


"The land was under Turkish control from 1517 to 1917 (ten times forty years), and Turkey destroyed this land thoroughly. The rulers enacted ridiculous laws; for example, one which required taxes to be paid for live trees. The people cut down the trees so they wouldn't have to pay taxes! The country therefore ended up in a very wretched condition, empty of trees and covered with rocks where once great forests had stood. Many authors, including Mark Twain, described the land as being devoid of any living creatures other than birds of prey and foxes.

But what of the people living in Israel? In 1864 about half the people of Jerusalem were Jews; about a third were Moslems. Hebron, Jerusalem, Tiberias all had semi-autonomous Jewish areas. When the Jews began returning to Israel in the mid-to-late 19th century, there were so few people living there, they could settle in most of the Holy Land without displacing anyone.

In 1920 the League of Nations designated British-occupied Palestine as a homeland for the Jewish people. Palestine then included all of what is now Israel, Jordan, and the West Bank. The land was no more than set aside for the Jews than the Arab nations revolted against the decision forcing Britain to designate the area that is now Jordan for the Arabs and install an Arab monarchy. Britain was politically protecting its oil sources but Israelis thereby lost over fifty percent of their land.

Jewish settlements created jobs to which neighboring Arabs were drawn. As Jewish settlements grew, Arab settlements grew up around them. The rise of Hitler caused more Jewish people to return to the land. But Islamic opposition and terrorism against the British and in favor of Hitler Germany persuaded England to reduce the number of Jewish people allowed to return at the time they most needed the land to escape the Nazi extermination camps. Britain was again worried about her Arab oil supply...".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:03 PM

pdq
I refer to the Palestinians, not as an ethnic group but as residents of Palestine**; this is fairly 'normal practice' I believe - nowhere I have ever heard it postulated that anyone 'elevates' the English to an ethnic group by referring to them by that term and indeed the word usage would be to precisely distinguish them from the neighbouring citizens of France or Scotland etc.

** or "Occupied Palestinian Territory", as used by the UN

But, you are right, it is difficult to conduct any discussion with someone unable to make this obvious distinction.

Your remark
'Since WWII, many Arab countries have sent their most worthless people, the bottom of Arab society, to the area around Israel for the specific purpose of disrupting the Jewish state.They have been told that when Israel falls, the property and wealth the Jews enjoy will be theirs. These people are so radicalized after years of daily propaganda, where the Jews are held responsible for nearly all the Arab's problems, that thse people are no longer welcome in any Arab country because they most are no longer capable of productive work. They are only trained to protest and to fight Israel.'

is too offensive to genuine refugees to even consider; I have no wish to even converse with someone who resorts to such malicious misrepresentation


As for history…

The Arab political status in the Mandate

'The British however made acceptance of the terms of the Mandate a precondition for any change in the constitutional position of the Arabs. For the Arabs this was unacceptable, as they felt that this would be "self murder". During the whole interwar period the British, appealing to the terms of the Mandate, which they had designed themselves, rejected the principle of majority rule or any other measure that would give an Arab majority control over the government of Palestine.

Immigration

'During the Mandate the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine, grew from one sixth to almost one third of the populations.
According to official records, 367,845 Jews and 33,304 non-Jews immigrated legally between 1920 and 1945
It was estimated that another 50–60,000 Jews and a small number of non-Jews immigrated illegally during this period. Immigration accounts for most of the increase of Jewish population, while the non-Jewish population increase was largely natural. These figures have been supported by later studies, though estimates of Arab immigration have been disputed.

Initially, Jewish immigration to Palestine met little opposition from the Palestinian Arabs. However, as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly, creating much Arab resentment.
The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each side for its own reasons

The Peel Commission

In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed a partition between a small Jewish state, whose Arab population had to be transferred, and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan. The proposal was rejected by the Arabs and by the Zionist Congress (by 300 votes to 158) but accepted by the latter as a basis for negotiations between the Executive and the British Government.

In the wake of the Peel Commission recommendation an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus, and Hebron. British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police, suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force.
The British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Jewish volunteers such as Yigal Alon, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley" by conducting raids on Arab villages. The squads used excessive and indiscriminate force

The Jewish militias the Stern Gang and Irgun used violence also against civilians, attacking marketplaces and buses.

The Revolt resulted in the deaths of 5,000 Palestinians and the wounding of 10,000. In total 10 percent of the adult male population was killed, wounded, imprisoned, or exiled The Jewish population had 400 killed; the British 200. Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency, the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.

N>B This perspective of 'history' is even handed, does not minimise the not very honourable role of the British and can be found (with references to the facts quoted) at wikipedia


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:14 PM

here's another Fact, which I found to be re-assuring given all the heat and emotion around this and related issues....

Daniel Barenboim, world reknowned Israeli conductor, accepted honorary Palestinian citizenship in Jan. after performing a concert in Ramallah, saying that he hoped his new status would be an example of Israel-Palestinian co-existence. He is the founder of Diwan Orchestra whose members include Israelis, Palestinians, and citizens from Arab countries.

leave it to the artists and musicians to find the common ground... and actually do something positive about it


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:21 PM

Thanks for reminding us of that bankley, there are many people of good will working for the
'common ground'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:38 PM

I think that the Zionist cause is well past its sell by date...they are still there in the Middle East purely because of brute military strength and through the massive economic muscle and aid provided by the USA and other western governments.
There will be no 2 state solution because Israel will accept nothing but a series of bantustan type strips of land for the indiginous Palestinian people to live on with no power ,no freedom of movement and at the mercy of the Israeli state itself and any crazed armed Zionist settler who wants to shoot at or beat up a Palestinian.
There can only be a one state solution some time in the future and any Zionist who cannot accept that should return to New York or some other place but there will be no room in the new state for their thuggery and armed swaggering!
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:45 PM

http://www.tirzahfirestone.com/html/bio.html journies through the Occupied Territories and says .....
'we must choose: Risking one's reputation or not speaking and risking one's soul?'

'This past year I have had to face the underbelly of my love of Zion. Like so many American Jews, I had been raised with the unquestioned narrative about Israel's righteousness, its humane practices, and the moral high ground upon which its policies are based. The painful deconstruction of these beliefs began with a journey through the Occupied Territories, where I encountered the shocking effects of my people's fear.

I saw a land sliced by concrete and barbed wire, a snaking wall 450 miles long. Yes, there has been good reason for fear—genuine security threats that have come through the gates and checkpoints. Nevertheless, I found myself questioning the holding back of women in labor, children in need of emergency blood transfusions. I heard stories, not only from Arabs, but from Israeli soldiers who struggled to "carry out orders" while innocent women and children died before their eyes.'

In the shadow of Zion
more news from the Common Ground**

**seeks to promote mutual understanding and offer hope, opportunities for dialogue and constructive suggestions that facilitate peaceful resolution of conflict
We publish and promote articles by local and international experts on current Middle East issues and the relationship between the West and Arab and Muslim communities.
The service is a non-profit initiative of Search for Common Ground, an international non-governmental organization (NGO), headquartered in Washington and Brussels, whose mission is to transform the way the world deals with conflict - away from adversarial confrontation towards cooperative solutions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:48 PM

My apologies that was Rabbi Tirzah Firestone, I quoted above


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:14 PM

Emma B,

If you regard these people as a distinct ethnic group because they live in a spacific geographic region, then you must be able to give the exact (or close to it) boundries to that territory. This is a serious question to you and needs to be addressed before a civilised discussuion can continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:15 PM

We oppose violence, suicide bombings and extremism. We oppose fanatics who are Palestinian and Arab, fanatics who are Israeli and Jewish. Peace must be made between Palestinians and Israelis, not Israelis and Egyptians, Israelis and Saudis, Israelis and Jordanians, Jews and Muslims.

A vision from Salam al-Ann!:

    Palestinians must start approaching the whole concept of communications in a broader more comprehensive way, instead of always focusing on writing Op-Eds, letters in anger or argument "against" something.

    Many voices of peace from Israeli are not often disseminated to Palestinian audiences, or that are circulated only among the small informal "dialogue groups" -- which sometimes achieve only limited results. Dialogue groups must have long range visions that lead to activism and community awareness.

    Creating a new organization called SALAM AL-ANN! (Palestinians for Peace Now) is essential to achieving a viable Palestinian State.

    Our agenda is very simple and clear. We do not negotiate peace, but we do advocate for peace and compromise and the following issues (generally expressed below):

       * Call for an independent Palestinian state with sovereignty in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and most of East Jerusalem (or in a shared Jerusalem). This means a Palestinian State that is viable and includes most of the land -- with only minor modifications made through land-for-land swaps. We need a movement to define exactly what we are expecting because clearly, Israelis are not hearing us.

       * Recognize Israel's sovereignty and security generally within the 1967 borders (some minor changes based on negotiations). This means accepting Israel as a Jewish State and saying it the way they need to hear it. We support a two-state solution, one Jewish and one Palestinian, both secure, sovereign and in borders defined pre-1967.
         
       * Support of the PRINCIPLE of the Palestinian Right of Return, but recognize that clarity for both sides must be realized. Israelis and Palestinians should accept that some refugees are expected to be allowed to return to former homes or lands in Israel.

          It is not possible, not realistic to expect all Palestinians will return. Some have established lives in other countries. But, we ask that Israel recognize its responsibilities to compensate the refugees and consider all family reunification seriously.

          We insist that Israel recognize its responsibility for causing the refugee problem and make every effort to work to compensate the refugees for the homes and lands that they lost. We would support similar demands made by Jews who fled Arab countries in the same manner.
         
       * Jerusalem -- a negotiated agreement that either results in sharing or Palestinian sovereignty in those areas of East Jerusalem that are not Jewish (the Wailing Wall plaza and Jewish sectors of East Jerusalem should rightly belong to the Israelis). Decided through negotiations.
         
       * A complete removal and dismantling of all settlements in the West Bank, Gaza Strip.
         
       * The negotiated status of certain settlements in or around Jerusalem that have been annexed into Israel (such as Ariel and Gilo, a settlement originally created as a security post that has since become a "Jerusalem neighborhood). The status of these settlements should be determined by negotiations and discussions and their futures based on equal land trades.
         
       * A firm stand against all forms of violence, but specifically by being responsible for those forms of violence that come from our community, specifically and clear, separate denunciation of violence by Palestinians against Israel. Why make this demand? Because we are responsible for ourselves. We cannot demand that Israel's government stop the violence against Palestinians if we do not first demand that we stop the violence against Israelis. This is a moral position we must accept and does not undermine our right to demand forcefully that Israel's government end its violence against Palestinians.
         
       * A call for Palestinians and Israelis to return to the formal negotiation process. To build a strong voice by both sides demanding that the representatives of both sides go back to the table and negotiate.
         
       * A call for both sides to bring the volume of anger and hatred down to a level that replaces emotion with reasoned and positive-intended passion. We can argue and we can disagree, but we don't need to hate.

    These are very simple concepts (expressed in general terms to convey the intent only) that must form the basis of a Palestinian effort in support of peace. We can fine-tune them through discussion.

    If you believe - really believe in compromise with Israel based on land-for-peace and the goal of a two-state solution, they you will support us. Agreeing to recognize Israel does not mean that we have to give up our souls, or our individual views of history. But it does mean that we look ahead, not backwards, and find a way to end the conflict based on compromise not violence, hatred or rejection of what is right and moral.

    Please circulate these principles and help us build

http://www.hanania.com/palestinianpeacenow.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:04 PM

It is very dificult to conduct a sane discussion with people who elevate the palestinian Arabs to a separate ethnic group. They are just plain Arabs.

This shows a tremendous amount of ignorance (and I would suggest, prejudice) about Arabs. The above quote is like saying Scottish and Welsh are not separate ethnic groups, they're just British.

It appears that the ethnic Philistines (aka Palestinians) left with the Jews and followed Mose. The current unhappy folks who spend all their energy trying to destroy Israel go back no father than the period of Islamic conquests around 700 AD.

This is false. You can't use the bible as an historical document in this case. In this case, at least, it's just a fiction. Genetic studies have shown that the people who are now called Palestinians and the Arab Jews originated in that very area (what is now Israel and occupied Palestine), with some extra genetic material provided by people passing through the area, since it was an important crossroads of civilization, and are more related to each other than they are to any other groups.

What came more recently to the region, and is probably what pdq is referring to, is the Arab language and the religion of Islam. But the people who are now referred to as the Palestinians are indigenous to the region.

What pdq and other people who use these kind of lies are doing is denying a people their history, and that is cultural genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:08 PM

I have a hell of a lot of respect for Daniel Barenboim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:35 PM

GUEST
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:21 PM

before you get deleted, as I sincerely hope you do, let me say once more....

Isreal is a country made up of its individual citizens many of whom do NOT support the policies of the ruling party.

To 'condemn' a whole country for the beliefs and actions of its rulers is unacceptable whether that elected party is Hamas, Likud or the Bush administration!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:43 PM

I need to correct something I said...

Genetic studies have shown that the people who are now called Palestinians and the Arab Jews originated in that very area

The term "Arab Jews" in this case is not entirely correct, since there are also Arab Jews who come from other places as well. I should have said, some Arab Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:28 PM

It's still very important to understand what Emma's saying in this regard, though. There are many Israelis who do not support the policies of their government and who are just as much the victims of them as anyone else. And there are many, many Israelis, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who are working very hard to correct the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem viz. SALAM AL-ANN!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:01 PM

All of the generalizations and accusations on this and the other Middle East/Israel/Zionism threads on here the last week or so bear to light one word-change. Whichever side of the argument one is on here, it seems to me that the one thing that neither side wants is status quo. Arguments about who was responsible for a war 40 years are of scant matter to what should be done today (CarolC, that's not to say that it should be forgotten, whichever version you or I believe, but one must move on as well). There was a time in the 1980's when I never thought South Africa would be where it is today. There was a time when I thought the same about Northern Ireland as well. Believe it or not CarolC, I do believe some of the points you have made, but at the same time, I don't believe one can only hold Israel solely responsible for all of these issues. IRA violence was never justified, but Protestant para military strikes were equally unjstifiable, as was a shoot to kill policy by the British. I'm cutting through it all here folks, so please don't cut and paste a specific post you made where you said something to counter what I wrote, ok! I guess as I see the number of postings that have been growing on this subject matter, it just wears on me, yet I feel compelled to check in as well. I know that posting on here is not going to do anything other than swaying a few people one way or the other (and that's what we do on here),but lets face it, our arguing isn't accomplishing anything much now is it? I'm sure a lot of us on here do things like signing petitions and such, about issues we feel strongly about. I don't have the answers, regarding this and many other issues. Hell, I was a foreign policy major in college, but that hasn't changed anything! Regarding this issue, it seems like since status quo is not an option for either player in this option, we need to forget about much of the past and move on, find out the areas that 100% we can agree on, and move on from there. I know there are people out there, doing just that, and that's where I will throw my support behind.
Regards, robert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Thanks bobad and thanks Robert too.

I was only thinking last night of the fact that there is not always an unambiguous definition of a 'terrorist'.

The IRA, the ANC and Hamas flourished and bombed in the oxygenated atmosphere of inequality and/or repression.
Remove that oxygen and.......who knows...

Today some of these 'terrorists' have been redefined by history as 'freedom fighters' and have become respected statesmen others, who suffered 'judicial execution' (like James Connelly) or met an illegal execution (like Steve Biko) have become national heroes.

from a recent article in The Guardian

'Hamas condemns the Holocaust'

We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression

'One recent approach, which seems to be part of the wider attempt to isolate the elected Palestinian leadership, is to portray Hamas and the population of the Gaza strip as motivated by anti-Jewish sentiment, rather than a hostility to Zionist occupation and domination

The Palestinian people aspire to freedom, independence and peaceful coexistence with all their neighbours.

No less than 700,000 Palestinians have been detained at least once by the Israeli occupation authorities since 1967. Hundreds of thousands have so far been killed or wounded. Little concern seems to be caused by all of this or by the erection of an apartheid wall that swallows more than 20% of the West Bank land or the heavily armed colonies that devour Palestinian land in a blatant violation of international law.'

quoted from Bassem Naeem, the minister of health and information in the Hamas-led Palestinian administration in Gaza.

There is hope for a 'reconciliation' process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:26 PM

For a five minute video sequence showing the disgusting humiliating and provocative treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Zionist armed settlers in Hebron, a Palestinian city,go to Liveleak and scroll down.
The sequence is called LIFE IN A CAGE...A PALESTINIAN FAMILY and it is an affront to any form of decency.
Albert

There is a second clip of orthodox but anti zionist Jewish worshippers in a synagogue being beaten up by Israeli security guards
which is also an appalling sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:30 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:23 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem

Yes, this is true. Arafat really sold the Palestinians out when he agreed to Oslo, since it didn't provide for any kind of endgame, or provide for an end to the occupation. It also didn't grant the Palestinians the status of human being or confer upon them any rights whatever, or citizenship to any country, or status as a nation All of the Palestinian governments have really been, more than anything else, puppets of the Israeli government. None of them has represented the interests of the Palestinians at all. Pressure needs to be applied to the government in occupied Palestine to correct this situation, just as it needs to be applied to the governments of the US and Israel, and there are many Palestinians who are involved in this work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:35 PM

irishenglish, if the intent of the government of Israel is to continue the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians until they are all removed from occupied Palestine, and if the US continues to support Israel in this endeavor financially and with its UN vetoes, the only way to bring peace to that region is for the people in the US and Israel to make them stop.

The problem is that many people don't accept the idea that Israel is, in fact, conducting ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. They are, and they are also doing it to the non-Jewish Arab-Israelis, and there is more than ample proof of this. But in order to help people see clearly what is being done in their names and with their money, it is necessary to show what has been done in the past, along with what is being done in the present.

I will use your analogy of apartheid in South Africa. Do you think it would have been possible to end apartheid in South Africa if nobody in Western countries or in South Africa itself was allowed to talk about it and to discuss why it was wrong? Of course it wouldn't. It was because of campaigns much like those that are being conducted on behalf of the Palestinians today that South Africa was pressured into ending its apartheid. If people had tried to silence discussion about South African apartheid the way people (you included, aparently) are doing on the subject of apartheid in occupied Palestine, South Africa would still have apartheid today.

You don't help to correct these kinds of problems by telling people not to talk about them. That will only ensure that they continue indefinitely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:33 PM

Let me just say this also, irishenglish...

Institutionalized social injustice never ever ends on its own. Slavery didn't end on its own, segregation in the US didn't end on its own. Apartheid in South Africa didn't end on its own. And it wasn't governments that led the way to getting rid of these forms of social injustice either.

It was social justice movements that did all of the work to bring these things to an end in the places where they existed. One of the challenges that social justice movements have always had is to inform people who have been purposely and heavily misinformed by the governments of the countries where these forms of social injustice have occurred. Governments of countries with institutionalized forms of social injustice use heavy propaganda to justify their activities, and they are often very successful in shaping people's perceptions so that they are favorable to the governments' agendas.

If one wants to end social injustice, it is always necessary to show people how they have been misled, and help them see the truth about what has been going on. It is also necessary, when a government has presented a distorted version of history for the purpose of concealing and/or justifying what it is doing, to correct this distortion of history. And in the case of the Palestinians, this distortion of history has been an enormous libel on them, and this libel has been the cause of a lot of suffering for and the deaths of a lot of Palestinians.

When someone presents us with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the truth, those of us who believe in social justice will tell that person that the Protocols hoax is a vicious lie that is being used to generate and spread hatred toward Jews. It is important to do this because, 1. it is a lie that spreads hatred, and 2. spreading hatred causes suffering, and 3. a lie like that one can and will be used as a justification for committing violence against Jews, and in some cases, even killing them. It is no different with the lies that the government of Israel has been promoting about the Palestinians and also about Israel's neighbors. These lies have been and are being used to justify killing a hell of a lot of people. And a lot of those people are civilians. And these lies are also being used to justify the apartheid and ethnic cleansing that Israel is forcing on the Palestinians.

Just as with the Protocols, these lies and distortions of history must be corrected. Not only because doing so is the only way to have social justice, but also because it's the only way to have peace in the Middle East. For this reason, it is not only appropriate for us to revisit what has happened in that region in the past, but it is absolutely necessary to do so.

Have you watched the video with the two former members of the Israeli military that I posted a link to? They were saying that the Israeli public is very misled by the government about what is going on in occupied Palestine, and that if the public really knew what is going on in those areas, they wouldn't stand for it. It's time to get the word out.

You may not feel that you can be involved in helping to do this work. There are many ways that people can help. But it doesn't help the Palestinians, or even the cause of peace in the Middle East to try to silence those who are doing this work. And while you may not be aware of the difference these efforts make, even in places like online forums, I can see it, and the difference I can see is enormous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:43 PM

When you're done, CarolC, please turn out the lights. Bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:41 PM

I think I'd rather turn a few more lights on, pdq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad - PM
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM

It's also important to remember that there are many Palestinians who do not support the policies of their government and are just as much victims of them as anyone else and who are working to correct that problem viz. SALAM AL-ANN!


I see that the post I was responding to in the post of mine that you are responding to here was deleted, bobad. I was responding to an anonymous guest who didn't want to make a distinction between the general population of Israel and the Israeli government. I was disagreeing with this position. Believe it or not, I do speak out when I see people posting obviously hateful things about Israelis and Jews, and I always have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:14 AM

Carol C-"If people had tried to silence discussion about South African apartheid the way people (you included, aparently) are doing on the subject of apartheid in occupied Palestine, South Africa would still have apartheid today."

HOW DARE YOU, HOW ABSOLUTELY DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF THAT. You don't even know me, now you are analyzing a few lines I wrote and accusing me of apathy and neglect, and indifference. Well, how's this for apathy, I don't care about anything you say.

Moreover, you plainly do not get both the reasoning and the point of my posting (Did you miss the part where I said I agreed with you some of the time, or do you only key in on what you want to key in on?)

Where did I say anywhere for people to not talk about these isssues, about me not helping to correct the problems? I didn't Carol. I said discussing this on a forum with people with entrenched viewpoints doesn't help much. That's why for the last 22 years or so Carol I have been to rallies, I have signed petitions, I have written letters, and will continue to do so. See, you really don't know me at all, so your 5 minute judgement upon me is baseless. Tell you what, I'll take the high road here, because since you don't get it, that's what I was doing with my post, and I'm going to move along. You continue your ungrounded attacks upon other people, you continue trying to browbeat people into the belief that you are the only authority on these matters, and I'm going to do something positive to compensate for it. Ta.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:27 AM

Anti-Semitic Hate Speech in the Name of Islam

...satellite channels like the Hamas-run Al-Aqsa are helping to bring a message of hate and intolerance to Europe. The effects of such hate preaching can already be felt in Germany.
...During one excursion to the German Historical Museum, a group of Muslim youth gathered in front of a replica of a gas chamber in Auschwitz and applauded.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:35 AM

Another lovely day. Morning, all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:19 AM

" think it's as inaccurate, however, to suggest that Hamas and "the Palestinians" are one and the same thing as it is to say that the Kahanists and "the Jews" are one and the same thing. Of course, we know that in both cases, they are not."

However, Hamas is the government in power in Gaza while Kahane's Kach Party is banned in Israel because of its overt racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:24 AM

G of E: Do NOT start confusing this issue with facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:26 AM

I hear you, Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:06 AM

Sorry, irishingenglish. It looks like I misunderstood you. It looked to me like you were telling me I should stop talking about it. A lot of people do that, and it's possible that I've become a bit reflexive about it.

I said discussing this on a forum with people with entrenched viewpoints doesn't help much.

This is where we disagree. I don't see what I'm doing as talking to people with entrenched viewpoints. What I see myself doing is correcting a lot of historical disinformation in a public forum that is read by a lot more people than just those with entrenched viewpoints. You and I are aware of the entrenched viewpoint people because those are the ones who respond, but I know for a fact that a lot of people read these threads who don't post to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:11 AM

However, Hamas is the government in power in Gaza while Kahane's Kach Party is banned in Israel because of its overt racism.

Yes, nevertheless, Hamas is not even all of the people in Gaza. It's only some of them. It would not be any more right to conflate all of the people in Gaza with Hamas than it would be to conflate all of the people in Israel with the terrorists who became the members of the Israeli government. People say that the Jewish terrorist groups disbanded after Israel became a state, and for some reason they think that just wipes the slate clean on the records of the people who committed acts of terrorism in those organizations. But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:31 AM

"But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas."

YOUR racism is showing, lady. Make it parallel.

But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas, the Palestinian's terrorist government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:46 AM

No, Peace, it's your racism that is showing.

The members of the terrorist paramilitary groups who committed terrorist acts such as blowing up the King David hotel (and many others) did go on to become leading members of the government of Israel. And not only that, they continued to commit (or arrange to have others commit) terrorist acts after they became the government (Google "Lavon affair").

It's not racist to point these things out. They did happen. What is racist is for you say that we can only talk about the bad things done by the groups you personally hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:53 AM

Yeah, yeah, Carol, yeah yeah.

Same old shit from the same old shit stirrer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:55 AM

Ya know, people could go to damned near ANY 'political' thread you've ever posted to and it ends up the same old way. Carol giving everyone HER views and trying to disallow their views. Have a look at yourself, lady. And have a NICE day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:15 PM

Peace, you speak what I've been thinking. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:19 PM

Like I said, you can make personal attacks, Peace, but it won't do any good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:26 PM

BTW,

Carol giving everyone HER views and trying to disallow their views.

You're the one who is using bully tactics to try to silence those with whom he disagrees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:29 PM

who is a 'terrorist'?

The African National Congress (ANC) was designated as a terrorist organisation by South Africa's old apartheid regime and its supporters.

South Africa's apartheid government banned the ANC in 1960, imprisoning or forcing into exile its leaders.

The ANC's armed wing, uMkhontho weSizwe, which was set up after the ANC was banned in South Africa in 1960.

Mr Mandela, who turns 90 this year, was released in 1990 after spending 27 years in prison.

He then became the country's first post-apartheid-era president, before retiring after serving one term in office.

However, Nelson Mandela and other members of the African National Congress remain on the US terrorist watchlist.
ANC members who wish to travel to the USA have to get waivers from the State Department.
The former South African Ambassador to the USA was flagged and delayed when she attempted to visit a dying cousin -- by the time the red-tape had been cut, her cousin was dead.

Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., chairman of the House International Relations Committee, is pushing a bill that would remove current and former ANC leaders from the watch lists. Supporters hope to get it passed before Mandela's 90th birthday July 18.

"What an indignity," Berman said. "The ANC set an important example: It successfully made the change from armed struggle to peace. We should celebrate the transformation."
                           
                               .-.

Few politicians in recent Irish history have divided opinion as much as Gerry Adams. To his followers, he is regarded as one of the best leaders the republican movement has ever had.
To his fiercest unionist opponents, he is at best little more than an apologist for IRA gunmen, and at worst, a member of its highest command.

Interned by the British government in 1971 his voice was not allowed to be broadcast in the UK.

'I will never sit down with Gerry Adams ... He'd sit with anyone. He'd sit down with the devil. In fact, Adams does sit down with the devil.'
Ian Paisley quoted in The Independent, February 13 1997

In 2007 Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams sat side by side to announce they had reached agreement to share power from May 8 in a devolved Northern Ireland government.

The accord between the veteran unionist firebrand and the leader of a militant republican movement that once killed opponents was hailed in London and Dublin as the defining moment.

With goodwill and mutual understanding equality and reconciliation IS possible the strategy is to reduce the grievances that fuel violence - step one in this journey is to acknowledge them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:30 PM

Since its very foundation in 1948 Israel has been a terrorist state acting in a terrorist way against both the indiginous Palestinian population which it has driven into exile with no right of return or which it has brutalised,criminalised and corraled in Gaza,on the occupied West Bank, in the refugee camps and in Jerusalem.
In addition it has bombed the civilian population of Lebanon and elsewhere time and time again.
Only last week the Israeli military command admitted to using cluster bombs against hevily populated civilian areas in Lebanon when it launched its invasion almost two years ago.
In Gaza there are official reports emerging about the terror tactics being used against a refugee city of over one million people which includes choking off water,fuel and food and the indiscriminate and callous bombing of civilians leading to many casualties including women and children killed or maimed by Israeli bombs and shellfire.That's state terror !
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:33 PM

From the Middle East Times


'Hezbollah's network confirms terror goals
By WALID PHARES Published: May 20, 2008
Hezbollah areas in red

A detailed map released by a French Web site citing Lebanese sources shows the main network of communications established by Hezbollah throughout Lebanon. It details the organization's closed circuit telephone system, a network independent from the one operated by the government.

This parallel network was at the heart of the recent flare-up between Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's cabinet and Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah.


The latter accused the government of attempting to seize the network while the Lebanese government stating that no communication network could operate outside the law. Hezbollah's response was that its status as a "resistance" organization justified it running its own "closed communications system." In other words, to behave as a state within the state.


Under the country's constitution the Lebanese government had the right to demand that Hezbollah shuts down its illegal operation. But no sooner was the ministerial decision made public that Hezbollah launched a blitz campaign on the Lebanese government.


Even though the government was not in a position to dismantle Hezbollah's network or prepared for a militarily confrontation, Hezbollah Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah held a press conference, declared war against the government and gave a signal to the coup.


Why would Hezbollah wage such a risky war for a telecommunication system? Is it because of the income generated by the network to sell international phone calls? Less likely. The Iranian foreign aid to the group was upgraded from $300 million to a little less than $1billion a few months ago.


Obviously more revenue is always welcomed by the leaders of the so-called "resistance," but more important is the big picture revealed by the Hezbollah phone map.


Close analysis of the map tells us the following:


The "Red Lines" stretch from southern Beirut along the coast to the Hezbollah exclusive zones in the south. It covers a complex network of bases in the area, cuts through the Jezzine district and connects with the Bekaa Valley all the way up to northern Lebanon. The most important features and dimensions of the Hizbo-net are the following:


1. The net covers large parts of Greater Beirut: This can provide Hezbollah with the ability to organize its forces in Dahiye (southern suburb of Beirut) for assaults against West Beirut, East Beirut and the Druze Mountain in Aley and the Chouf. The closed circuit can mobilize thousands of fighters without interception from Lebanese or international monitoring. It explains how Hezbollah launched its blitzkrieg offensive on Sunni Beirut, the Druze Mountain and was testing Christian Beirut, without real warning to the areas under attack.


2. The coastal cable-line links the Dahiye to the inner land of the Hezb. It serves to move troops and material from the south to the north without major detection. It explains how thousands of Hezbollah forces were moved from as far as Nabatieh and Tyre to Beirut. But it also tells about the capacity of Hezbollah to use it against UNIFIL forces in the future, if needed.


3. The network between the south and the Bekaa indicates a Hezbollah strategy to close the gap to the east.


As I have indicated in many articles and interviews previously, the Lebanese-Syrian borders are all that count to Hezbollah's terror network. As long as these frontiers are open for Iran to supply weapons and logistics via Syria, the state within the state can thrive and grow.


The Lebanese government and the U.N., with European and U.S. backing, should have closed that gap three years ago, but they didn't. Let's leave the blame game to another discussion. Hezbollah was faster than anyone else.


According to this map the Iranian backed militia built an impressive network throughout east Lebanon from the southern fortresses to the closest position to the northern borders with Syria. This means that Hezbollah by now, has covered the entire Bekaa Valley, and thus has beaten the international community to the borders with Syria.


Military and intelligence analysts can understand this development very clearly. Strategically, Hezbollah is in control of these areas as shown by a map B, which I established two years ago.


4. In the mid-Bekaa, the cable route connects the center of the valley to one of the highest peaks in Mount Lebanon and thrusts into the mostly Christian districts of Byblos and Kesrouan. This shows that Hezbollah has already established an axis of penetration inside the Mount Lebanon area, at few kilometers only from the seashore.


5. Map A also shows that Hezbollah positions are connected to the Anti-Lebanon Range and thus to the Syrian hinterland. Militarily there are no Lebanese-Syrian borders to stop the flow of weapons and forces coming from Iran through Syria into Lebanon.


6. The northern tips of the Hezbollah "cable road" show clearly that its forces are deployed as far north as the eastern slopes of the Cedars Mounts. From these positions, the Iranian-backed forces can seize the highest peak south of Turkey, leap to the Akkar district and reach the northern borders with Syria.


7. More importantly, and because of the strategic bridge between Hezbollah and Iran, this communications network is a battlefield system which can be used by the Iranian Pasdaran and eventually by Syrian Special Forces in a potential mass return to Lebanon.


In summer 2007 I presented a projection-map in a briefing to the Caucus on Counter Terrorism at the U.S. House of Representatives, as well as to a number of high ranking U.S. military personnel. It showed the potential paths of a Hezbollah offensive in Lebanon.


Indeed, strategic projections show that Hezbollah can move its forces from the south toward Beirut (which was executed in May). But it also shows that combined forces of Hezbollah and Pasdaran can move on the Damascus road to Beirut and Mount Lebanon and the center of mountain as well.


Hezbollah-Pasdaran forces would move in the north on an East-West axis and jihadist elements and pro-Syrian forces can move from the borders to Tripoli.


The Hezbollah communication systems shows that when the time will come, massive reinforcements from Syria and Iran can move swiftly along axis already secured by Hezbollah across Lebanon. The invasion of West Beirut and the attacks against the Chouf and Aley districts are only the early signs of what is to come.


8. Last but not least, the Hezbollah communications network can also allow an activation of their massive rocket and missile system across Lebanon without significant interference from Western assets.


The aim of this powerful missile force seems to be against a potential "international" force tasked with the mission of bringing peace to the country. Here again Hezbollah – and Iran – have already beaten the West in the race toward dominating the Eastern Mediterranean.

--

Walid Phares is the director of the Future Terrorism Project at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies in Washington, a visiting scholar at the European Foundation for Democracy and the author of the newly released, "The Confrontation: Winning the War against Future Jihad." '


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:33 PM

We've all heard that shit before, "Albert".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:49 PM

From The Middle East Times also....

'Shouldn't Palestinians forgive Israel?'

'For the Palestinians who are prepared to forgive the hope is that the majority of Israelis, out of decency or out of sheer desire for a quiet life, don't want any more war. Realizing that Palestinian forgiveness meant that their national existence was no longer threatened, Israelis would want their government to seize the chance, not to confiscate more Palestinian land, but to consolidate the state of quiet and calmness, and do their best to rescue Palestinians from military occupation and second-rate citizenship.'


'In the first chapter of Amos Oz's novel, "My Michael," the protagonist Hannah recalls her childhood friends, Khalil and Aziz, two Palestinians who in 1948 disappeared along with 800,000 of their people. In the last chapter she imagines her two friends coming back to blow everything up. By then Hannah has descended into madness.

Hannah, like Oz and his generation of Israelis, knows that before the war of 1948 there was another, older and larger society than her own, and that that society was destroyed and its traces erased; the population was forced to leave, villages were razed to the ground and cities, neighborhoods and streets were renamed. She must also know that the destruction of the Palestinian society was necessary for the creation of Israel. Unlike her generation, however, Hannah is willing to admit what she knows; but that's only because she is mad.

Israelis know that, within the ongoing conflict, making this acknowledgement could, as the novel concludes, be an act of madness and a call for self-destruction. For such an acknowledgement endorses the basic and uncompromising Palestinian claims.

Practically every single Palestinian believes that before the Nakba – or "catastrophe" – there was a Palestinian society similar to Arab societies in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt; that if it hadn't been for Jewish migration to Palestine, with the intention and means of creating a Jewish state, Palestine would have progressed into a sovereign Palestinian state.

Were the Israelis to endorse such claims they would have to admit that the creation of the State of Israel has blocked the natural birth of the Palestinian state; they would, therefore, risk facing the call to stand up to their responsibilities and correct the wrong they have done.

But how could they do that without undoing their own nation and agreeing to become citizens of the long delayed Palestinian state? Could the Israelis – as a nation whose ancestors suffered a long history of discrimination, prosecution and genocide – take such a risk without being absolutely mad?

Madness, however, doesn't always lead to the risk of self-destruction. Indeed, some of it could be so benign as to be the only hope.

Let's imagine a Palestinian protagonist, a Palestinian Hannah who could understand the position of the Israelis – that they have no choice but to evade or postpone admitting the embarrassing facts of pre-1948; that at best they could try to skip these facts by supporting a half-baked solution, such as the so-called two-state solution, by which Palestinians are offered a compensatory miniature state.
A Palestinian Hannah would also acknowledge that the damage has been done and attempts to undo Israel could only lead to further damage – and that Palestinians must forgive Israelis.'

Samir el-Youssef is a Palestinian writer and critic


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:44 PM

Perhaps we need some music brought in again, to bring peace.

Back during the Israel/Lebanon crisis, there were many Concerts For Peace organised by the young people of Israel, with artists from all over the world taking part. One of those who helped to organise just such a concert was Aliza Hava, a young musician from New York who is doing all she can to promote peace in The Middle East. I'll put links to both her sites, so those who cannot link to Myspace, can also hear her music. There is a wonderful song on there called 'Rise' some of the words from which are below:

Aliza Hava

Also, from Aliza's myspace blog:

The Jerusalem Peacemakers

Aliza's myspace

"...We will learn to sing, not to fight, unless it's for our freedom and rights. We will hold each others hands, try hard to understand. Liberty is our demand. We are one people, one land. One people. One soul." (taken from 'Rise' by Aliza Hava)

The musicians are the ones who will eventually bring peace, for they have no barriers, no political axe to grind, just a strong desire for peace and harmony amongst all people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,JA woman
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:45 PM

The Guest above is me (Jewish/Arab woman) Apologies, I had trouble post the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:52 PM

CarolC keeps referring to the "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians by Israel.

In places where there is ethnic cleansing, the ethnic population in question is either wiped out decreases markedly. For example, think of the Jews from Arab and Moslem countries in the Middle East. Sixty years ago, there were about 1,000,000, Now there are, at best, a few thousand.

However, at the same time, in Israel/Palestine, there were about 1,000,000 Arabs. Now there are well over 5,000,000.

If Israel was attempting "ethnic cleansing," they are surely totally inept at it.

The TRUTH, of course, is that Israel is not ethnic cleansing. All calls for ethnic cleansing by extremist Israelis have been rejected by every Israeli government, right wing and left wing alike.

The cause of peace is not advanced by the constant repetitions of such blood libels as advanced by CarolC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:56 PM

"I similarly will not endorse the actions (in regard of Gaza) of the Likud ruling party in the Knesset until hell freezes over"

EmmaB,

Likud, headed by former-Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is not the "ruling party in the Knesset."

The party in power is Kadima, a centrist party, headed by current Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:05 PM

mea culpa!

.....a major split in 2005 saw Likud leader Ariel Sharon leave to form the new Kadima* party.

* 'Kadima's plan was devised by Sharon but Olmert must carry it out
Kadima was founded on the premise that Israel's long-term survival depends on safeguarding its Jewish majority and preventing Palestinian Arabs becoming the majority at any time in the future.'

BBC report 2006


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Ethnic cleansing doesn't have to happen all at once, Ghost of Electricity. It can happen slowly over time. If the ultimate goal is the complete or even near complete removal of a particular population, that is ethnic cleansing. As I have said before, the process in both Israel and in occupied Palestine is ongoing (and relentless). There are many ways to remove a population. One way is to make it impossible for people to live in an area (bulldozing their homes to make room for new settlements to house the population that is replacing the original one, preventing them from putting up any new buildings, separating people from their means of making a living using roads accessible only to the new people, depriving people of access to their own water resources, depriving them of other necessities, like electricity and roads (this in happening in Israel) preventing the flow of goods and people into and out of an area. The methods aren't as quick as running them out at the point of a gun (a tactic that has been used), but the results are the same in the end.

When the Israeli government drives non-Jewish Palestinians out of their homes, destroys them, and then builds new, Jewish-only settlements in their place, and when they use other means of making it impossible for people to remain in an area, they are committing ethnic cleansing, because they are removing a particular group of people from the area and replacing them with different group of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:14 PM

Unfortunately, the other parties are not really any better than Likud. Although the Labor party is less open about it, they are just as responsible for increasing and enlarging the settlements as Likud (and Kadima). They all have the same agenda, just different means of accomplishing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:23 PM

btw ....
'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' is the title of Professor Ilan Pappés* book which looks at the 'history' hotly disputed here.

A review of the book by Stephen Lendman here

*'In 2007, Pappé left his position as a senior lecturer of Political Science at the University of Haifa......
Pappe said that he found it "increasingly difficult to live in Israel" with his "unwelcome views and convictions'

He is one of the predominant Israeli supporters of the 'One State Solution' where Palestinians and Israelis can live together in equality in one state for two people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:19 PM

The reality is that Israel will not be accepting a one-state solution any century soon.

The reality is that Israel is not going away any century soon.

The reality is that the Palestinians are not going away any century soon (and they are NOT being ethnically cleansed, despite what CarolC may say again and again and again).

The only solution is the two-state option. Israel has accepted that. Much of the Arab world has accepted that. The Palestinian leadership of Fatah has accepted that. Basically, the sides are so close to achieving the solution that its ridiculous that they haven't been able to get there.

Israel cannot be defeated by the terrorism of Hamas and Islmaic Jihad. All their terrorism does is make a solution impossible and make the day-to-day lives of the Palestinians intolerable.

If Hamas and Islamic Jihad accept the reality of Israel, disarm and STOP their terrorist activities, then there will be a Palestinian state within months.

Anyone who doesn't think so does not know Israelis. The vast majority of Israelis would be very happy to shut down the settler movement in the West Bank like they shut down the settler movement in Sinai and in Gaza.

An end to terrorism means an end to the opressiveness of the anti-terrorism measures enacted by Israel.

Both sides will have to compromise. Both sides know that. The question is, will it happen in the next year or two, or will it take decades?

One column I saw in a Canadian Jewish newspaper recently said that the Palestinians are not the worst enemies faced by the Jews in recent decades. That honor belongs to the Nazis. The column pointed out that Germany is now one of Israel's closest allies and that the German head of governmnet recently spoke to the Knesset in German. The columnist concluded that if Israel, the Jewish state, can be friends with Germany after the Holocaust, then peace with the Palestinians is surely possible.

AND THAT IS ALL I'VE GOT TO SAY ANYMORE.

Peace, I wish you well.

CarolC, I won't hear another word you ever have to say.

Shalom! Saalam! Peace!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:40 PM

I have read where many of you here favor a one state solution for Israel and Palestine. This is the panacea that will bring peace and harmony between and among Israelis (Jews) and Arabs (Muslims), to say nothing of the West in general and Islamists.

I believe many of you believe this scenario, but I also believe that some of you present the idea very cynically.

How optimistic should I be that such a one state solution would work?
Let's see: Crete--island still divided after 25 years or more between Greece and Turkey after British leave; Czechoslovakia splits into Czech Republic and Slovakia; Yugoslavia splits into many ethnic countries and then some; Kurds attempting to establish a homeland in parts of Turkey and Iraq, independent of either; and there is a nascent movement to divide Dutch speaking Belgium from French speaking Belgium. I'm sure if I wanted to take the time I'd find several more such examples.

Based upon recent history, I'm not at all confident that a one-state solution on the Mediterranean Coast is a viable option. In fact, I think I have a better chance to be US president (<0.00001%) than a one-state 'Israstine' has of working to the mutual benefit of those populations.

JotSC


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:44 PM

John- it is Cyprus, not Crete, divided between Greece and Turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:04 PM

Thank you, irishenglish, I was about to correct that, but you beat me to it. My point remains, however.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:09 PM

"Canada's longest peacekeeping mission began a few years after the Suez Crisis. In 1959, Cyprus, an island in the Mediterranean, gained its independence from Great Britain. Greek and Turkish communities on the island, however, could not coexist peacefully. By 1963, fighting had broken out between the two groups. When both Greece and Turkey threatened to intervene, the conflict was poised to become an international crisis. Britain hoped to restore peace through the intervention of the UN. Subsequently, UN troops, including a Canadian contingent, were stationed in Cyprus to keep the peace. In the past, Canadian troops had been regarded as essentially "British." However, their presence in Cyprus elicited no objection from either the Turkish or Greek Cypriots, indicating that Canada was regarded as a state whose position was essentially a neutral one. The conflict continued, however, and led to the partitioning of Cyprus into Turkish and Greek republics.


Copyright Canadian War Museum (AC 19900170-004).

Liaison with the Muhktar LdSH(RC), Louroujina, Cyprus, by Dr. Geoffrey George Jamieson.

An officer of Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) facilitates negotiations between two Cypriot leaders. From 1963 until the mid-1990s, Canadians were very active in keeping the peace in Cyprus. Canada still has a small contingent of observers on the island.

On 15 July 1974, Greek army officers serving in the Greek Cypriot National Guard staged a coup d'état against the president of Cyprus, Archbishop Makarios. Their aim was to unite Cyprus with Greece, the goal that was the original cause of the Cypriot civil war. Turkey reacted five days later by launching an amphibious invasion of Cyprus with 40,000 troops. Turkey's stated aim was the protection of the Turkish Cypriot minority. Within 24 hours, the Turkish invasion force had gone beyond its initial objectives, securing the port of Kryenia, their beachhead in the northern part of Cyprus, and extending its territory into the Turkish sector of Nicosia. Their final objective was to be the Nicosia airport on the western end the city. Indian Lieutenant-General Prem Chand, who had also commanded the 1962 UN action against secessionist Katangan gendarmes and mercenaries, led the UN forces in Cyprus. He and his chief of staff, Canada's Colonel Clay Beattie, who was also the commander of the Canadian contingent, decided that to allow the Turks to take the airport would be an unacceptable blow to UN credibility.


   
Elements of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, Canada's UNFICYP (United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus) contingent at the time, were deployed to the airport, which had been defined as a UN protected zone. An initial attack by the Turks was stopped by Greek Cypriot defensive fire, but, when word of an impending second assault reached the Canadian contingent, it reminded both sides that they had agreed to a ceasefire. The Canadian soldiers also clearly stated that they would defend their positions. The world press could then report a Turkish assault on UN troops. The Turks apparently believed that the Canadian contingent would stand its ground -- they certainly had the means to overcome these troops but chose not to do so. Bravado, credible because of the evident professionalism of Canada's soldiers, won the day. In addition to preventing the Nicosia airport from falling into Turk hands, the action defined a new style of peacekeeping: actively intervening between opposing sides rather than passively occupying ground between them. Actions at the airport and other hot spots throughout Nicosia came at a high cost for Canadian peacekeepers, 2 dead and more than 30 wounded! The same proactive style of peacekeeping, which certainly has its roots in the UN action in Katanga in 1960s, was to be used in Croatia and Bosnia. These operations, however, exacted an even higher price.

United Nations (UN 84573).

Peacekeeping Force, Kato Pyrgos, Cyprus, 15 April 1964.

The United Nations Security Council established the United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus to help prevent a recurrence of hostilities between Turk and Greek Cypriots. The force was comprised of contingents from Canada, Finland, Ireland, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.

Canada kept an infantry battalion of varying size in Cyprus until the mid-1990s and still maintains a small group of observers there. Virtually every Canadian infantry battalion did at least one Cyprus tour, and most did several. Armoured regiments and at least one artillery regiment also took their turn.

With Suez, Cyprus, and a number of other smaller missions, peacekeeping was established as a central feature of Canadian foreign policy. It continued to be vital both to Canadian diplomacy and military policy right up until the 1980s and 1990s."

Keeping peace there has cost the deaths of about 30 Canadians. FYI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:09 PM

BTW, welcome back, John.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:25 PM

I am glad Emma B has referred to Prof Ilan Pappe's book" The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine2.This book ,written by an Israeli,is a devastating account of the ethnic cleansing undergone by the Palestinians as their homeland was taken over by Zionists .
It is an account of the destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages ,the forced expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and the mass murder of Palestinians as Zionist terror squads moved in with knives, grenades and machine guns to kill and expel.
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:23 PM

The only solution is the two-state option. Israel has accepted that. Much of the Arab world has accepted that. The Palestinian leadership of Fatah has accepted that. Basically, the sides are so close to achieving the solution that its ridiculous that they haven't been able to get there.

The only thing stopping Israel from doing what is needed for the Palestinians to have their own state is their unwillingness to allow the Palestinians to have their own state. Do you really think that if Israel was honest about accepting that the Palestinians should have their own state, they would still be increasing the size and amount of settlements? Of course they wouldn't. And yet they are increasing the size and amount of settlements, and they are also assisting the settlers in the settlements that the government of Israel itself has declared illegal.

The settlements are a part of an overall strategy of ethnic cleansing along with the other things I mentioned... denial of the Palestinians access to their own water, denial of services to Arab Israelis, denial of building permits for Palestinians, both in occupied Palestine as well as in Israel itself, the choking off of the Palestinian economy through the prevention of movement of goods and people, settler harassment of Palestinians, denial of access to health care through preventing people at road blocks from getting to the hospital, and other things as well.

The ultimate goal is to have all of the Palestinians removed, or coerced into leaving until there are none left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:16 PM

And it keeps getting deeper and deeper on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:24 AM

"And it keeps getting deeper and deeper on this thread."

I see it as more of the truth about Palestine /Israel emerging through the above postings. After all the Palestinian people have rarely received fair coverage of their plight from the western media or sympathetic regard from the powers who originally backed the Zionist conquest of the Palestinian homeland.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:51 AM

Oasis of Peace

(ne-vé shal-om / waah-at i-sal-aam: Hebrew and Arabic for Oasis of Peace [Isaiah 32:18]): A village, jointly established by Jewish and Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, that is engaged in educational work for peace, equality and understanding between the two peoples.

Neriya Mark is Jewish and Sama Daoud is Arab Muslim.
They are friends that have grown up together in Neve Shalom/ Wahat al Salam, an Arab-Jewish village founded in 1970 in Israel.

Interviwed about their experiences and hopes on BBC Radio 4's ptogramme Midweek this morning.

A village today.....
A country tomorrow?

only equality and understanding can bring about a lasting peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:07 AM

Oasis of Peace - A brief history of the village

'Over thirty years ago, a man named Father Hussar first came to dwell on the land in Israel that would come to be known as an Oasis of Peace, home to a School for Peace and a primary school and to residents committed to living together and respecting one another's language and culture.
Inspired by a phrase in the book of Isaiah, Father Bruno envisioned a manifestation of the Old Testament's prophecy that "My people shall dwell in an oasis of peace" (32:18).
Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam/Oasis of Peace was conceived of and nurtured by Father Bruno, a Jew born in Egypt and a convert to Catholicism, who dedicated over 30 years of his life encouraging peaceful coexistence between Jews and Arabs.

Father Bruno believed there were two "rights" in Israel and Palestine: the right of Jews to inhabit the Jewish state created in 1948 and the right of Arabs to maintain their homeland and live as full citizens in Israel.
He envisioned the need for a place that could be a model for peaceful coexistence between Arabs and Jews.
In 1972, he camped without modern conveniences upon a hillside that he leased from the nearby Trappist Latrun Monastery for 25 cents a year for 100 years. In 1978, the first family arrived to join him along with funds to begin construction on infrastructure for water, sewage, and electricity.

Father Bruno later wrote of his idea, "We had in mind a small village composed of inhabitants from different communities in the country. Jews, Christians, and Muslims would live there in peace, each one faithful to his own faith and traditions, while respecting those of the others. Each would find in this diversity a source of personal enrichment."
Placing Jews and Arabs together was only part of a goal that would involve providing "the setting for a school for peace." Father Bruno stated, "For years there have been academies in the various countries where the art of war has been taught. . . [W]e wanted to found a school for peace, for peace too is an art. . . People would come here from all over the country to meet those from whom they were estranged, wanting to break down the barriers of fear, mistrust, ignorance, misunderstanding, preconceived ideas—all things that separate us—and to build bridges of trust, respect, mutual understanding, and, if possible, friendship.

Report of visit by Janet Langhart and William Cohen here


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:27 AM

Just because you support either factions you're a racist, or believe in free speech you're a racist as well.

there are exstrimes on both sides not just the one side, as there is always three sides to a story your side, their side and the truth.

I jsut don't support terrorists and I don't care what they believe in killing people is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:13 AM

Emma B:

If the people you call Palestinian are an ethnic group because of where they live, please show precisely where that is.

For a geographic area to carry a valid name, it must have reasonably well-defined borders. Let's see them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:16 AM

Good morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:53 AM

This is what is likely to happen. Israel will soon sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians to withdraw to the 1967 boarders with Jerusalem as a jointly controlled city. The Palestinians will have an official State. Refugees will be allowed to settle in their state. Terrorism will for the most part be put on hold for just a little while. The next step will be an anti Zionist propaganda campaign and eventually an orchestrated Arab attack planned and executed by the Jihadists to get control of the rest of Israel and end the Israeli state, but unfortunately that will again not succeed, and it'll be back to dismal Palestinian despair.
Until the Arabs can really contemplate an Israeli Jewish Zionist state to exist- they will never have a good future for the Palestinian people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:15 PM

To Arnie
Wll I think you are wrong in your prediction that Israel will soon sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians.

It is far more likely that Israel will continue to allow Zionist armed paramilitary and settler groups to build more and more fortified townships on Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank,which Mudcat users will recall is not,and has never been,a part of Israel.

Israel ,which is under the control of a right wing hawkish government seems intent on carving up the West Bank into many small "bantustans" ringed by Israeli military forces ,armed checkpoints and with movement between these bantustans strictly controlled and regulated.And of course the huge Apartheid Wall which extends for hundreds of miles through Palestinian land cutting off Palestinian farmers from their fields and orchards and villages from their hinterlands ,is part of this programme of Israeli control of the Palestinian people and the theft of their land.

Gaza and Lebanon seem to be the rock on which the Israeli military is blunting itself.The Israeli military took a beating two summers agoin Lebanon and were outthought and outfought by the Guerillas led by Hezbollah.Likewise in Gaza ,despite the illegal and barbaric sustained attacks on its civilian population the Israeli military has yet to make Hamas submit.

In Northern Ireland the trial is about to start of anti war campaigners who closed the arms manufacturer ,Raytheon, for a day during the Israeli invasion.They occupied their Derry office in protest at the supplying of military equipment to Israel by Raytheon.
I would imagine that world wide support for the Palestinian cause is helping to sustain morale in both Gaza and on the West Bank.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:23 PM

SSDD from "Guest, Albert".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 21 May 08 - 01:01 PM

This article is by Sheldon Kirshner:

Zionist movement was aided by Palestinians
Thursday, 22 May 2008

It goes without saying that Palestinian Arabs were opposed to Zionism. But from the moment they mounted a concerted campaign to fight it, the Palestinians split into two warring camps, much to the benefit of the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine.

The mainstream camp, led by Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, could not reconcile itself to the Zionist project, whose ultimate goal was Jewish statehood. The accommodationist camp, which was identified with his bitter rival, the Nashashibi family, was pragmatic and open to coexistence with the Zionists, believing that they were simply too strong to be defeated.

This divergence of views had major ramifications. The accommodationists, largely consisting of regional leaders who had forged ties with the Yishuv and resented Husseini's intransigent leadership, aided the Zionists politically, economically and even militarily. When nation-wide fighting broke out in November 1947 and escalated after five Arab armies invaded Israel in May 1948, two important developments occurred, both of which tilted the balance of power in favour of Jews.

First, relatively few Palestinian Arabs joined the armed struggle to throttle the Yishuv. Second, in violation of national leadership edicts, some Arab villages reached non-aggression pacts with their Jewish neighbours.

Not surprisingly, Palestinian scholars have glossed over this sensitive topic, and strangely enough, many Israeli historians have made light of it. Hillel Cohen, an Israeli research fellow at the Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University, tackles it head on in a path-blazing book, Army of Shadows: Palestinian Collaboration With Zionism, 1917-1948 (University of California Press).

Cohen is familiar with the broad terrain of the subject, having written two related books, The Present Absentee: Palestinian Refugees in Israel Since 1948 and Good Arabs: The Israeli Security Service and the Israeli Arabs. Cohen's current work, based on declassified Zionist, Arab and British archives, illuminates the issue.

As he points out, Zionist diplomacy only seriously began to consider relations with the Arab inhabitants of Palestine following the British occupation in 1917. Until then, the Zionist movement concentrated on cultivating ties with the Ottoman Empire, which ruled Palestine, and currying favour with European powers such as Britain, Germany and France, which had vital interests in the Middle East and might be of help in furthering the Jewish cause in Palestine.

The Balfour Declaration, issued by the British government on Nov. 2, 1917, galvanized the Palestinians, prompting them to form nationalist organizations, mount anti-Zionist demonstrations and carry out attacks against Jews.

In response, Zionist leaders – spearheaded by Chaim Margaliot Kalvarisky, a land purchaser for the Jewish Colonization Association, and Col. Frederick Kisch, a retired British intelligence officer and head of the Zionist executive's political department – devised a counter-strategy. Chaim Weizmann, the president of the World Zionist Organization, was also involved in this campaign.

Underpinned by the naive assumption that an authentic Arab national movement in Palestine did not exist, it sought to create a cooperative Palestinian leadership, deepen already existing fissures in Palestinian society by fomenting conflict between Christians and Muslims, and develop a cadre of Palestinian newspaper writers to laud the advantages of co-operation with Zionism.

The Palestinians who chose co-operation were driven by various motives. Some assumed that the Zionist movement was an arm of the British Mandate and, therefore, should be cultivated. Still other Palestinians, particularly land dealers and job seekers, were animated by personal gain. Palestinians who considered themselves nationalists but who were opposed to the Husseini leadership were also targeted by Zionist strategists. Palestinians who had Jewish friends and who were repelled by the violence of Palestinians also tended to favour co-operation.

With this in mind, Kalvarisky established the Muslim National Associations, a loose network of Palestinian political parties. But the concept did not work, and after more than a decade, he abandoned the idea altogether.

Playing on old animosities, Zionists courted Bedouin tribes, which at first did not identify with the Palestinians. Indeed, some Bedouins regarded the Palestinian national movement as a threat.

Efforts to recruit the Druze of Mount Carmel were undertaken as well. Officially, the Druze community remained neutral, but in practice, Druze fighters drifted into both the Jewish and Arab camps. As for Christians, they played a marginal role in developments.

Zionists tried to shape Arab public opinion by subsidizing Palestinian newspapers in Jaffa and Jerusalem and by recruiting writers who would sing the praises of Arab-Jewish co-operation and brotherhood. But as Cohen suggests, this strategy was only partially successful.

Since land purchase was a key objective of the Yishuv, Zionist agents cast their gaze at Palestinian landowners, such as the Abu Ghosh family, and absentee Arab landlords residing in neighbouring countries.   

Palestinian nationalists tried to block these transactions by various means. Yet by 1948, the Zionist movement had succeeded in buying seven per cent of the land in Palestine.

Palestinians bitterly opposed to such transactions did not sit quietly. In 1925, the first fatwa forbidding the sale of land to Jews was issued. But as Cohen observes, it was left to the British to impose effective restrictions on land sales.

On another front, the Zionist movement tried to recruit Palestinian public figures and informers. The first Palestinian Arab accused of collaboration, a village elder from the Mt. Hebron area, was murdered in 1929. The mayor of Haifa, Hasan Shukri, a symbol of coexistence, survived an attempt on his life.

The Zionist movement attempted to forge economic links with the Palestinians, since they constituted a natural market for goods produced in the Jewish sector. But with the 1929 riots, the Arab Executive Committee declared an economic boycott, calling on Palestinian consumers to buy solely Arab products.

Shortly after the United Nations passed the 1947 Palestine partition resolution, the Higher Arab Committee, headed by the Husseini clan, issued a declaration urging Palestinians to continue the boycott and "to consider any connection with (Jews) as a severe crime and a great betrayal."

Arabs were strongly urged to take up arms and fight for the homeland. Yet during the 1948 war, the majority of able-bodied Palestinian men did not heed that call. In some cases, village elders refused to allow Arab fighters to deploy in their villages.

As the war raged, Arab informers provided Zionist intelligence operatives with valuable political and military information, Arabs turned over British police stations to Zionist forces and Arab merchants sold food to Jews.

It was also not uncommon for Palestinian Arabs to sell weapons to the Zionist side. These arms merchants sold their wares to the Haganah and the more militant Etzel and Lehi militias, their only motive being profit, Cohen says.

Israel won the War of Independence due to a number of compelling factors, notably   superior military organization and higher morale.

But as Cohen notes, covert Palestinian co-operation with the Zionist movement was certainly a contributing factor in Israel's seminal victory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I notice two different essential arguments coming from those who disagree with what I have been saying, and what a few others have been saying in threads about Israel/Palestine.

One argument is that Israel is not committing ethnic cleansing and wants to allow the Palestinians to have a state of their own, and the other is that the Palestinian homeland is in Jordan.

I think it would be instructive for those who believe that Israel is not committing ethnic cleansing and does not have the ultimate goal of removing all of the Palestinians from occupied Palestine to pay attention to the arguments made by those who are saying that Jordan is the Palestinian homeland. Because to me, this looks like not only an awareness that the removal of the Palestinians is the goal, but also approval of that goal.

(And now I anticipate another gratuitous snipe from the Mudcatter with the ironic screen name.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:09 PM

Ghost of Electricity, that copy/paste you posted looks like a far more serious indictment of the Zionist leadership than it does of the Palestinians.

And let's not foget that Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, was released from prison and installed in his position of power by a Zionist. I would suggest that the reason this was done was because the Zionist leadership knew that fomenting violence would do far more to serve their agenda than allowing things to resolve themselves peacefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:33 PM

Poor baby will be complaing about personal attacks, won't you Carol?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:08 AM

Like I said...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:36 AM

Someone said the article I posted yesterday was a more serious indictment of the Zionist leadership than it was of the Palestinians.

Actually, the article is not an indictment of either side. It is a look at a book that examines a relatively unknown facet of the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:46 AM

Ilan Pappe is a very well respected Israeli historian of the roots of the Israeli state.He is now working as a professor in Britain.His book on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land is a devastating account of the Nakbha [catastrophe ] and infinitely preferable to the zionist guff churned out as an apologia for the war crimes committed during the past 60 years.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:44 PM

A book worth reading....

Palestinian Walks: Notes on a Vanishing Landscape by Raja Shehadeh, published by Profile books

Ian Black, the Guardian's Middle East editor
reviews


'Shehadeh, the author of several other acclaimed (and more optimistic) memoirs, has not produced a guidebook to rambling and hiking in the Holy Land: there are no routes up mountains or recommendations of cosy pubs in lonely valleys, no sketches of the stone shelters built by farmers to store their crops or shelter their sheep. But, like the poet Mahmoud Darwish, he conjures up something of what has been lost, and is still being lost, to the Palestinians - and what that means.

Tellingly, the Arabic word "sarha" - a walk or roam - derives from the verb used for cattle grazing freely on pasture. Shehadeh's musings as he anxiously negotiates the changing landscape - isolated Palestinian enclaves, Israeli checkpoints and an ever-expanding network of settler-only bypass roads, and finally the "separation wall" - give new meaning to the "right to roam" that most in the west rightly take for granted'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:50 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:08 AM

Like I said..."

You mean 'As I said...'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:59 PM

A critique of Ilan Pappe

"The most hated Israeli in Israel" - an ignoble moniker to be sure - has not eroded Ilan Pappe's star power on U.S. college campuses, where he is more often than not warmly greeted. The usual contingent of Said acolytes, Chomsky groupies and a panoply of pro-Palestinian student organizations are invariably well-represented in his audiences. The prominence of resolutely anti-Israel partisans is unsurprising, given Pappe's role as one of Israel's most prominent die-hard Marxists. Pappe was invited to UCLA by history professor and fellow Edward Said disciple, Gabriel Piterberg. A call to the university revealed that history department professors may invite speakers at their own discretion using departmental funding to cover expenses for colloquia without any oversight. This practice enables faculty to freely promulgate their political agendas and control the degree to which students are presented with alternative views and critiques. Piterberg has been labeled "an avant-garde radical who harangues campus demonstrations, endorses petitions and teaches a course in post-and anti-Zionism."

http://www.masada2000.org/Ilan-Pappe.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:03 PM

Actually, the article is not an indictment of either side. It is a look at a book that examines a relatively unknown facet of the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I don't agree. It shows what I have been saying for a long time; that the majority of Palestinians did not hate Jews or commit violence, and it shows some if the manipulations that the Zionist leadership used to work toward their goal of displacing Palestinians. It also supports the argument I have been making that al-Husseini was appointed to the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in violation of the wishes of the majority of the Palestinians and of the Palestinian leadership.

Some of the arguments that people defending the actions of the Zionist leadership and the Israeli leadership have been making are the idea that the Palestinians hated Jews and that the majority of them wanted to "drive the Jews into the sea", and they have been using this excuse to try to legitimize what has been done to the Palestinians. I have been arguing since 2002 that this is a terrible libel that has been and is being committed against the Palestinians, and that it's not true.

Your article vindicates what I have been saying since 2002.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:09 PM

Another excerpt from the aforementioned critique:

"Pappe's scholarship is questionable and subject to much criticism by respected historians. He dismisses the legitimacy of historical facts and rewrites history to support his ideologically determined agenda. He has admitted to the predominance of the Marxist worldview in defining conclusions and outcomes, by asserting that "we do [historiography] because of ideological reasons, not because we are truth seekers."

Pappe routinely and purposefully discredits or ignores sources that contradict his anti-Zionist views, and when challenged by students who cite accepted historical narratives, criticizes them for reading "the wrong books." When confronted by the actual, benign text of an Israeli military doctrine, which contradicted Pappe's thesis that such documents called for the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs, he admitted that no such doctrinal statement actually existed, but was implied simply by the existence and concomitant predispositions of Zionism."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:13 PM

bobad has linked to the Masada 2000 site. Masada 2000 is a hate group, not unlike skinhead and neo-Nazi groups. Here is their "shit list" (hate list) of 7000 Jews who don't support what the government of Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Ilan Pappe is in some excellent companyon that list...

http://www.masada2000.org/list-A.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:21 PM

The last time I looked at the Masada 2000 "shit list" it had under 4,000 Jews on it. I expect that list is going to get pretty long before they're finished with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:35 PM

Palestinians Killing Palestinians

Maybe you'd like to read about how Palestinians treat their fellow countrymen on their shitlist. Some nice pictures too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:43 PM

bobad, I've been saying for a long time that there were many Palestinian victims of the Mufti. You're only supporting my arguments with that post.

The Palestinian leadership did not want al-Husseini to be the Grand Mufti, and neither did the majority of Palestinians. The considered him to be a thug. But it was the Zionist, Herbert Samuel who had him released from prison and installed him as the Mufti. al-Husseini killed anyone who resisted him, including Palestinians. And yet, all of the Palestinians are still being punished for the acts of a man they didn't want or support, and who was appointed to his position of power by a Zionist.

As far as the rest of it goes, why should you care if Palestinians are killing Palestinians? The idea is to get rid of the Palestinians, right. It looks to me like they're just doing you a favor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Of course, we don't have to look too far for examples of Jews killing Jews in Israel and Palestine. Jews were killed in the terrorist bombing of the King David hotel. And Jews (Jewish children, but they weren't of European origin, so who cares, right?) were killed during the eugenically and financially motivated "ringworm experiments". And then, of course, there's the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.

So I guess the Palestinians don't have any kind of monopoly on that sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:01 PM

Carol that Shit list you linked to is just plain nasty!

Here is a description of 'Rabbi' Arthur J.Abrams (the inverted commas are from the author of the shit list!) as a 'bald-headed baboon of a rabbi'

The Vancouver, British Columbian singer Stephen Aberle, a steering committee member for Jews for a Just Peace, is damned for daring to call Jew and Arabs "brothers and sisters!"

and that's just the first few 'As'!

btw ...
Ilan Pappe ran for the Knesset on the Hadash ticket (a left-wing non-Zionist political party in Israel - an acronymn translated as The Democratic Front for Peace and Equality) which supports evacuation of all illegal Israeli settlements and calls for recognition of Palestinian Arabs as a national minority within Israel.
Hadash is also known for being active on social and environmental issues.

Ilan Pappe is currently Professor of History at the University of Exeter and is referred to as one of the
'New Historians'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:28 PM

"New Historians" - "we do [historiography] because of ideological reasons, not because we are truth seekers."

That about encapsulates it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:35 PM

Vindication for watchdog on al-Dura video

Devorah Lauter

The decision by a Paris court to overturn a libel ruling against a French media watchdog who claimed the iconic shooting of 12-year-old Mohammed al-Dura was manipulated by video editing lent new credence to claims that the shooting was staged.

Published: 05/22/2008


PARIS (JTA) -- Ever since Mohammed al-Dura was shot and killed at Gaza's Netzarim Junction on Sept. 30, 2000 amid Israeli-Palestinian fighting, claims that the boy's death was staged for prime-time TV have struggled for credence outside the Jewish world.

One French media watchdog who was especially strident in making this claim, Philippe Karsenty, paid a heavy price for his advocacy: He was sued for libel by the TV station that shot the al-Dura footage, France 2 TV, and slapped with fines totaling nearly $7,000. The 2006 ruling found Karsenty guilty of libel for claiming France 2 TV's report was "pure fiction."

But on Wednesday, Karsenty was vindicated when a Paris appeals court overturned this original judgment against him.

"It is a great day for the freedom of expression in France, the freedom of media and the truth in the media," Karsenty told JTA after the ruling.

The move lent new credence to the claims by Karsenty and others that the iconic shooting of the 12-year-old Palestinian boy, which fanned the flames of the second intifada, was manipulated by video editing.

The ruling "means there is a strong chance that I'm right," Karsenty said.

The court's decision said Karsenty, director of a group called Media Ratings, had the right to accuse France 2 TV and its Jerusalem correspondent, Charles Enderlin, of manipulating the video of al-Dura.

The video in question showed al-Dura and his father cowering in terror while trying to shelter themselves from gunfire. The film then cut to a slumped, motionless Mohammed lying in his father's lap.

Enderlin, narrating the video shot in Gaza by a France 2 cameraman, pronounced the boy dead and said Israel was responsible.

The footage became an iconic image used around the world to vilify Israel and, in some cases, Jews.

"Even I cried when I saw those images," said Sammy Ghozlan, a French Jewish leader and the president of the National Bureau of Vigilance against Anti-Semitism. "They were everywhere, and they set off the surge of anti-Semitism in France."

But the circumstances of the boy's death later came under question. Israel, after initially apologizing for the incident, said a subsequent investigation showed its troops could not possibly have struck the boy from their positions that day.

"Events could not have occurred as they were described by the network's reporter, Charles Enderlin, since they contradict the laws of physics," Israeli government spokesman Danny Seaman wrote in a letter to The Associated Press.

Activists raised further doubts about the film's authenticity when they discovered Enderlin had been in Ramallah the day of the filming, and that a freelance Palestinian photographer had shot the footage.

Additional footage, which was not included in the broadcast by the French network, also appeared to show the al-Dura boy lift his head and open his eyes after being pronounced dead. France 2 TV had refused to make that footage public until ordered to show it to a French court last November.

Other video reports by Reuters on the day of the Gaza clash showed groups of young Palestinian men staging scenes where they were carried into ambulances as if seriously wounded, then emerging from the ambulances uninjured and laughing.

Even as Karsenty celebrated his courtroom victory this week, France 2 appealed Wednesday's ruling to the Final Court of Appeals, Paris officials said Thursday.

Karsenty said he wasn't too concerned, and that the vindication of his claims was sweet given that few paid attention to, or believed, his claims -- particularly in France.

Few french Jewish groups embraced his cause, and Jewish groups in the United States were slow to.

Last fall, France 2's communications director, Christine de la Vena, told JTA, "Everyone has forgotten about this case except this man in the hearing and a couple of others who refuse to give it up. Only in France could a couple of individuals cause so much trouble."

Richard Prasquier, the president of the CRIF umbrella group of French Jews, eventually did offer the CRIF's backing to Karsenty, and several U.S. Jewish groups touted his claims.

The American Jewish Committee and the Zionist Organization of America applauded Wednesday's ruling. The ZOA will honor Karsenty with its Ben Hecht Journalism Award in New York this November.

Karsenty and many of his supporters said they hope this week's ruling will help bring the truth behind the al-Dura shooting to light.

"I'm happy that the judge recognizes we have a right to ask questions about the media, and that France 2 isn't beyond any suspicion," said Jacque Tarnero, a co-director of the documentary film "Decipherings" that focuses on the French media's portrayals of Israel during the first few years of the second intifada. "But now we still don't know the truth or the facts."

Tarnero called for the release of additional footage of the al-Dura shooting never made available by France 2. He called for a deeper investigation of the report, which became a symbol of the "supposed barbarism of Israelis who killed children."

"Now it is time for France 2 to acknowledge that it created and is continuing to perpetuate the worst anti-Semitic libel of our era," Karsenty said.

"It's the responsibility of the French government, and ultimately the responsibility of the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, to finally reveal the truth."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:51 PM

"Masada 2000 is a hate group, not unlike skinhead and neo-Nazi groups."

CarolC is absolutely correct about Masada 2000.

It is run by the followers of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, a racist extremist from Brooklyn, NY, who moved to Israel and founded the Kach political party.

Kach was declared illegal and banned in Israel because of its overt racism.

As Kahane followers, the Masada 2000 would not be allowed to exist in Israel. It is based in Scotsdale, Arizona.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:55 PM

Trivia note about Kahane:

When Kahane was a young rabbi in Brooklyn in the late 1950s and early 1960s, he used to give bar mitzvah lessons.

Among his students was Arlo Guthrie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:56 PM

The item posted by Ghost of Electricity makes one wonder how many of the "iconic" atrocities attributed to the barbaric Israelis were staged in a similar fashion doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:09 PM

That one cuts both ways, bobad. Considering the fact that the Israeli government committed terrorist attacks in Egypt (Lavon Affair) using agents who pretended to be non-Jewish Arabs, one could also say, "makes one wonder how many of the "iconic" atrocities attributed to the barbaric Arabs were staged in a similar fashion doesn't it?" This could include all of the terrorist attacks in Israel and elsewhere, even 9/11.

After all, the Israelis who were filming the destruction of the Twin Towers were disguised as Arabs. I'd be careful about making those kinds of insinuations. As I said... they cut both ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:15 PM

Well I'm glad to see you considering both sides of the issue for a change. As for the assertion about the Israelis dressed as filmaking Arabs, could you provide a source for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:42 PM

"Seeing both sides of the issue" is a pretty meaningless term, since most of the time in discussions like these, people who are arguing against Palestinian rights are attempting to define both sides.


None of these stories has all of the information, but when you put all of them together, you get a more complete picture. However, closer to 9/11, I saw quite a bit of reportage in the mainstream media that showed that there were numerous incidents of white vans and trucks with people dressed as Arabs in them doing suspicious things, and the ones who were stopped and questioned turned out to be Israelis...

Jerusalem Post (URL is too long to post)

http://www.zwire.com/site/mercury_101801.html

http://www.wnbc.com/news/1315651/detail.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:54 PM

Here's some of what was reported closer to 9/11...


"Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming 'middle-eastern' men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery."

--HA'ARETZ 9/17/01


"Also, five of the Israelis came to the FBI's attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture."

--Associated Press 12/17/01


"Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact. Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot."

--Yediot America 11/2/01


Kind of looks like they wanted people to think 9/11 was committed by Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:00 PM

'"Seeing both sides of the issue" is a pretty meaningless term, since most of the time in discussions like these, people who are arguing against Palestinian rights are attempting to define both sides.'

Sounds just like you when you talk about Israel, Jews and Israelis. Huh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:15 PM

It has been written here by CarolC that the Zionist, Herbert Samuel, appointed al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem against the wishes of the Arab populace. We are to infer from this that the Mufti's appointment was a Zionist plot which controls Palestinians' destiny to this very minute, just one of a continuing number of such plots.

Well, not exactly! In the years immediately following WWI, Mr. al-Husseini, was fomenting riots in Palestine against Jews and the British mandate, and was a wanted man (by the British) in exile in 1920. Because the British wanted to appease the Arab population amongst whom he was, indeed, popular, al-Husseni was granted amnesty in 1921, and was appointed to be Grand Mufti by Samuel who was the British High Commissioner for Palestine. Commissioner Samuel was acting in his government position for the benefit of Great Britain and the Mandate, not as a Zionist (although he was personally a Zionist.)

Al-Husseini used his position to continue fomenting anti-Jewish riots and other mischief, and was deposed by the British in 1936. From there he went to Nazi Germany to aid in anti-Jewish activities, and eventually lived out his long life in Lebanon; he died there in 1974.

Grand plot? I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:18 PM

Sounds just like you when you talk about Israel, Jews and Israelis. Huh.

I don't see any reason to allow other people to define my side of the argument. I'll define it myself. You, for instance, try to always frame it in terms of those who support human rights for Palestinians as being Israel haters and Jew haters/bashers. I can certainly understand why you would need to do that, though, since you're trying to defend the indefensible, and it's the best you've got. Still, most intelligent people can see right through that sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:30 PM

Under law, the colonial power was to choose among the top three vote-getters. al-Husseini placed fourth, receiving only about 7% of the vote. Samuel forced the most popular candidate, Sheikh Husam al-Din to withdraw, which put al-Hesseini in third place, and Samuel appointed him Mufti for life.

Jews and Palestinians alike have Herbert Samuel to thank for every single act of violence and destruction committed by al-Husseini while he held this position and the other positions that arose from his being appointed Mufti of Jerusalem.

Herbert Samuel was most certainly not appeasing the Palestinians by skirting around the law and overriding their votes against al-Husseini. He was pursuing an agenda of his own that had nothing whatever to do with the welfare of either Jewish or non-Jewish Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 08 - 12:40 AM

CarolC - of the three "tribal" representatives put forward, which "tribe" traditionally held the post of "Mufti of Jerusalem"? Which "tribe" viewed the post as being historically "their" right?

Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to occured before Samuel became Governor, the British Army under Allanby were still in control. Those riots (unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs) were instigated by al-Husseini in order to secure his appointment. The Al-Husseini "clan" was the most numerous/powerful in Palestine, note CarolC in Palestine, not in Jerusalem where the votes were cast. In the aftermath of the riots in 1920, al-Husseini put himself forward as the only candidate capable of controlling the Arab population and keeping the peace. That piece of "bullshit" the newly arrived Governor, Herbert Samuel, bought into, and that is what secured Al-Husseini the position.

But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.

I note in this thread up until now, the Palestinian advocates only refer to incidents since 1948, while they conveniently forget completely the events of the period 1920 to 1948. Without repeated acts of unprovoked violence visited upon their communities by the Arab population of Palestine during that period, Jewish organisations such as Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang would never have existed, there would have been no need for them.

On the "Right of Return" take a good look at who qualifies as a refugee, and then tell me why that definition is totally unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:29 AM

CarolC - of the three "tribal" representatives put forward, which "tribe" traditionally held the post of "Mufti of Jerusalem"? Which "tribe" viewed the post as being historically "their" right?

I've seen differing viewpoints on this. Some of them say that the post was not hereditary, some say that members of the Husseini family had held the position for a few generations, and one of them even said (this was a pro-Zionist source, by the way) that even the Husseini family didn't think Haj Amin should become the Mufti. I think I'll hold off on forming an opinion about this until I see more information about it. Nevertheless, by law, al-Husseini had no rights to the position, and I fail to see what point you are trying to make with this question.


Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to

Please show me where I referred to riots in 1920 in this thread.


But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.

Please show me where I said the riots never occurred.


Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to occured before Samuel became Governor, the British Army under Allanby were still in control. Those riots (unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs) were instigated by al-Husseini in order to secure his appointment. The Al-Husseini "clan" was the most numerous/powerful in Palestine, note CarolC in Palestine, not in Jerusalem where the votes were cast. In the aftermath of the riots in 1920, al-Husseini put himself forward as the only candidate capable of controlling the Arab population and keeping the peace. That piece of "bullshit" the newly arrived Governor, Herbert Samuel, bought into, and that is what secured Al-Husseini the position.

I've seen a lot of explanations for Samuel's decision (nobody seems to really know, since all of the sources I've seen, including quite a few pro-Zionist ones, have entirely different explanations for his decision). Yours is very creative, I must admit, but it carries no more weight than any other explanation. But even if it was merely a stupid decision on Samuel's part, he is still the one who is responsible for Haj Amin's reign of terror. My own opinion is that his decision fits the pattern of behavior of the Zionist leadership - fomenting violence for the purpose of promoting their agenda.


I note in this thread up until now, the Palestinian advocates only refer to incidents since 1948, while they conveniently forget completely the events of the period 1920 to 1948. Without repeated acts of unprovoked violence visited upon their communities by the Arab population of Palestine during that period, Jewish organisations such as Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang would never have existed, there would have been no need for them.

One of the things that happened prior to 1948 was Zionist murders of anti-Zionist Jews. That's something that people like you conveniently overlook as well. I guess it's ok to kill Jews if they don't support the Zionist party line.

Yes, there were riots. Non-Jewish Palestinians were being displaced, both physically and economically by the European settlers, and they were not at all happy about it. You may not consider displacing a people a provocation, but most of the rest of the people in the world do consider it a provocation.


On the "Right of Return" take a good look at who qualifies as a refugee, and then tell me why that definition is totally unacceptable.

First you tell me who qualifies for Jewish "Right of Return".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:40 AM

Albert,
What is true is the fact that for much of pre zionist history the minority Jewish population of Palestine enjoyed reasonable relations with their christian and muslim Palestinian neighbours.The communities had been rubbing along together for many generations.
The coming of a European Zionist ideology and colonial settlers intent on creating a Zionist state in this sensitive land was bound to create massive inter communal and inter religious conflict ...and it did.
The founding of the state of Israel at the expense of the majority Palestinian population was done with the connivance of the great western powers who had done so little to help Jewish refugees from the Holocaust.
The solution they arrived at was to create a catastrophe for the Palestinian people who have been oppressed,attacked and brutalised ever since.....but this solution has created a deadend for Israel where the most hawkish thuggish and right wing Zionists have state recognition and indeed support.And all the time this state has been armed and economically supported by the most powerful nation in the world .
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:04 AM

LOL

One source I've just been looking at, a pro-Zionist Jewish source, is saying that it's all the fault of the British. They're saying that a couple of high ranking members of the British military and intelligence services instructed Haj Amin to instigate riots and and to commit violence on Jews, telling him that freedom could only be attained through violence, and that if he did that, the British would advocate the abandonment of the Jewish home. This source is saying that after instructing Haj Amin to do this, the British then withdrew their forces as well as the Jewish Police from Jerusalem so that he could instigate the riots unimpeded.

What do you think, Teribus? Shall we place all of the blame on the British instead of on the Palestinians and the Zionists?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:51 AM

"And all the time this state has been armed and economically supported by the most powerful nation in the world ."

Good thing for Jewish people, because without that support they would have been subject to a second holocaust.

Palestinians are supported also by very oil-rich nations in the Middle East. Lest we forget.

I have the impression that "Guest Albert" is so narrow minded on this issue that his sctarch pads are about 1/4" wide. Wake up fer krissake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:00 AM

'But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.;

I gave up reading her posts about ten back. Too much fiction in with the facts. It's called cherry picking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:03 AM

Anybody read about Nicky Reilly? Exeter? Or should that too be kept quiet--in the name of being nice to groups like Hezbollah. Just one more straw in the wind. Such reasonable people these 'freedom fighters'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Mohammed Rasheed--that's his new name. BTW, I expect that somehow Israelis will be blamed for this, too. What's new?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:20 AM

To blame the evil actions of a leader on people who supported him in power is wrong and simplistic.

Each person is responsible for his or her own actions. Period.

Suddam Hussein was responsible for the deaths of 1.4 million people and he was solely responsible.

Pol Pot is also credited with the slaughter of 1.4 million people. The man was a monster. Nobody else can be blamed.

If al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized the systmatic murder of Jews it is he who bears the blame and not the British, the Jews, Mr Samuel nor Spot the Wonder Dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:47 AM

Reply to Peace...
I am not narrow minded on the issue of the oppression of the Palestinian people.I support their struggle and along with millions of others across the world I would like to see the oppression end.
I want to see an end to the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of Gazan citizens and the hundreds of its children who have been killed or maimed in recent years.
I want to see an end to the Israeli death squads roaming across the occupied West Bank murdering Palestinians.
I want to see an end to the Israeli land grab of Jerusalem and the West Bank.
And I want to see the Israeli military which has been bullying and swaggering across the Middle East for decades defeated.For too long it has been using cluster bombs,high exposives and apache gunships against civilians.
It destroyed Beirut and last year revisited Lebanon with its usual cluster bomb calling card.
And I believe that the Palestinians have the right to self defence against one of the most powerful military machines in the world.
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:25 PM

I gave up reading her posts about ten back. Too much fiction in with the facts. It's called cherry picking.

snipe snipe snipe.

But that's what people do when they've got nothing of substance to offer themselves. Especially when they are trying to defend the indefensible, and the only "facts" they have to work with are collective myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:27 PM

If al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized the systmatic murder of Jews it is he who bears the blame and not the British, the Jews, Mr Samuel nor Spot the Wonder Dog.

Well that's nice to know. I'll quote you on that in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:13 PM

"There can only be a one state solution some time in the future and any Zionist who cannot accept that should return to New York or some other place but there will be no room in the new state for their thuggery and armed swaggering!"
MM - I suppose if Israel was weak enough to lose just one of those crucial wars and the Zionists and Jews were all killed or driven back out to New York or back to Poland, you'd be quite happy right now.
I thought you were gonna say that Jews or Zionists should go to Madacascar or Grand Island New York something. I've got news for you Albert. Jews we were taught that Israel was to be a place that was were given by God as part of a heritage forever, an everlasting covenant - to be settled in and to serve God for the benefit of humanity. Jewish people have believed this for thousands of years. To be Jewish is to be a Zionist in some form - it is the essence of the religion, so to try to make Zionism into some kind of evilism just won't do you any good. To be Jewish is to believe in Israel as a nation with Jerusalem at it's core - one place at least where a Jew might live and prosper without being annihilated- but even that prospect is now difficult to fathom. It may be possible to arrange to live in peace together with any other peace loving religion or peace loving neighbor. It's a matter of will. A one state solution? There is - it is called Israel- and it's here to stay for quite some time, although many Jew haters are trying to change that. The other state has yet to be realized- and hopefully it will exist in peace and prosperity with it's neighbors soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:15 PM

Good one, Arnie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:45 PM

There is - it is called Israel- and it's here to stay for quite some time, although many Jew haters are trying to change that. The other state has yet to be realized- and hopefully it will exist in peace and prosperity with it's neighbors soon..

Out of curiosity, Arnie, do you consider the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be part of Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:47 PM

Good one, Arnie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:40 AM

There are many Jewish people who are well and truely sickened by what the Zionist have done and are doing ....from the indiscriminate bombing of residential blocks in Gaza to the destruction of some 15000 homes in Lebanon ,the slaughtering of hundreds of Palestinian children in Gaza to the brazen theft of Palestinian land in the West Bank and elsewhere......and all in God's name??
Of course the Jewish people who are opposed to these vicious ,brutalising policies then get harassed by Zionists and called self hating. And there are many Jews in Israel who are opposed to what the Zionists are doing.I saw a video clip recently of a group of orthodox Jews being beaten up by Zionist thugs in a synagogue.
As for the claim that Israel is a place where Jews "might live and prosper" think again.
It is one of the most violent societies in the world.It is a country of fear and insecurity.It is an apartheid like place where a colonial regime ,corrupt to the core, has to oppress,terrorise ,kill,expel or imprison those who have lived on its land for many generations.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:46 AM

"Out of curiosity, Arnie, do you consider the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be part of Israel?"
Gaza is not part as Israel and is ruled by Jihadist militant forces bent on Israel's destruction as it's political platform- not exactly the peace Palestinians can negotiate with any time soon. They seem to still think that indiscriminate rockets and suicide killing will bring Israel to their knees. This kind of policy is very dangerous for all the decent Palestinian civilians who want a real life ( not to mention the victims of these tactics on the Israeli side - but I noticed you didn't mention those Albert) The other areas are up for negotiations - so we'll see.
"It is one of the most violent societies in the world" - Tell me what civilized countries allow militant armed factions to exist and roam freely reaking havoc on their neighbors? Israelis live in fear - yes because of being surrounded by those bent on it's destruction, not because of Zionist thugs- give me a break. Albert - you could get easily get a job in Iran's propaganda dept against the Zionist Entity. There are Jews who aren't happy with Israeli policies - but don't go on as if it were a worldwide movement or something. I think you'll find most Jews are supportive of the Israeli government and the Israeli State and wish it to negotiate peace in good faith. Israel is a civilized democracy - you make it sound like a fascist regime with thugs at every corner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:47 AM

Whoops - that last post was from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:32 PM

Gaza is not part as Israel and is ruled by Jihadist militant forces bent on Israel's destruction as it's political platform- not exactly the peace Palestinians can negotiate with any time soon. They seem to still think that indiscriminate rockets and suicide killing will bring Israel to their knees. This kind of policy is very dangerous for all the decent Palestinian civilians who want a real life The other areas are up for negotiations - so we'll see.

Israel has turned Gaza into a huge outdoor prison camp, which it is slowly starving, so it shouldn't surprise anyone if the Gazans act like they don't like it. Israel's only alternatives with regard to Gaza are to leave it alone so the Gazans can get on with life, transfer all of the Palestinians elsewhere, continue to put up with the rocket attacks, or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative.

On the subject of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, how do you feel about the idea of Israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,from albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:39 PM

I don't say that Israel is a fascist type country. That must be some kind of insecurity that Zionists get when they are criticised.
However ,Israel does remind me of apartheid era South Africa with many of its racist and vicious features.

And of course the Zionists know a great deal about armed factions and many Palestinians were the victims of the Zionist Stern gang which went to work with bomb and machine gun and knife when the Palestinians were driven out of their homes and expelled from their country.

Of course the Palestiniansd want a decent life.....at present it is a life that the Israeli state and the Zionists who control it are not prepared to allow.

This means that a Palestinian and her children and grandchildren are barred from returning to their homeland by Israeli law.In contrast a Jewish person from anywhere in the world has the legal right to enter Israel permenantly.

It also means that the illegal occupation of the West Bank is now the world'ds longest occupation of one land by a foreign power.And the Israeli can only maintain that occupation by intolerable methods which are against international law and any law of human decency. So we have the mass demolition of Palestinian houses,the theft of Palestinian farmland,the imprisonment of huge numbers of Palestinians on the West Bank [the majority of Palestinian males have been hauled off to Israeli jails ], attacks on Palestinian refugee camps like Jenin, the assassination of Palestinians by Israeli death squads, the building of the monstrous apartheid wall which snakes its way through Palestinian land for hundreds of miles, the siting of hundreds of checkpoints which cause huge delays for Palestinians who may only need to travel a few miles, the grubbing up of Palestinian olive groves,the closure of Palestinian schools and universities and countless other forms of daily humiliations meted out by the Israeli state to the Palestinian people.

If the Israeli people wish to negotiate in good faith they have a poor way of showing it as they do a good job in electing aggressive right wing and corrupt governments on a regular basis. Why I seem to recall that the old "Butcher of Beirut" himself, Ariel Sharon ,became leader of the Israeli government and did his utmost to further provoke the Palestinians with his "walkabout" at the muslim mosque in Jerusalem ....a walkabout which involved him being guarded by around 1000 armed guards.
And we have also seen the kind of "real life " being dished out to the Palestinian Gazans by the Israeli state.It has waged war on civilians including women and children for over a year.It has blockaded Gaza by air,land and sea.Its warship has blown up picnicers on the beach, it has rained down missiles on crowded streets and apartment blocks.It has blown up journalists and news cameramen.It has cut off power to hospitals and homes alike.

Yup, Gaza has tasted the Israeli military's version of "real life"...and it might not be fascism but it is brutal, venal and corrupting.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:40 PM

"or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative."

What bullshit you speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Interesting thread. In all the to-ing and fro-ing about the Palestinians has anyone bothered to remember the roughly 4,000,000 Palestinians of Jewish descent who have managed to strive and thrive and maintain the freest, most democratic State in the entire Mideast for SIXTY YEARS?

Happy birthday Israel!

I'm enjoying both sides of the contention because of the well spoken-ness of both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:47 PM

What bullshit you speak.

If you think it is bullshit, that means you either think it will follow one of the other alternatives, or you can see an alternative that I have not listed.

If it is the former, which alternative do you think they're going to go with. If it's the latter, what alternative do you see that I have not listed?


Interesting thread. In all the to-ing and fro-ing about the Palestinians has anyone bothered to remember the roughly 4,000,000 Palestinians of Jewish descent who have managed to strive and thrive and maintain the freest, most democratic State in the entire Mideast for SIXTY YEARS?

Did you know that the number of people emigrating from Israel has exceeded the number immigrating to it for the first time recently?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Carol you wrote:
Did you know that the number of people emigrating from Israel has exceeded the number immigrating to it for the first time recently?

I've met many Israelis AND Palestinians from Israel, with immigration rates ranging quite heavily due, I've been told, more for economic reasons/ incentives than anything else. It has varied over the years and reminds me of the number of Irish Irish that have shown up in Boston in my living memory.

So if you've got a point to make, why not flesh it out somewhat so we can see whether it's got meat on its bones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:06 PM

I've met many Israelis AND Palestinians from Israel, with immigration rates ranging quite heavily due, I've been told, more for economic reasons/ incentives than anything else. It has varied over the years and reminds me of the number of Irish Irish that have shown up in Boston in my living memory.

So if you've got a point to make, why not flesh it out somewhat so we can see whether it's got meat on its bones.


I don't disagree with what you've said about the reasons they are going. But the fact that they are going means that they don't consider Israel to be the best place for them. If they're leaving for economic reasons, that means that Israel isn't really thriving the way you suggested in your first post. My own opinion is that the occupation is not just hurting the Palestinians in occupied Palestine. I think it is also hurting Israel, but that it just takes a lot longer for this to become obvious in Israel than it does in occupied Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:31 PM

And by the way when will Mordechai Vanunu ,who renounced his Israeli citizenship years ago, be permitted to leave nuclear armed Israel.He has been offered refuge in Denmark but has been refused permission to leave depite threats to his life in Israel.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:31 PM

I am tired of the glorification of Mordechai Vanunu by the anti-Israel crowd here. If Mr. Vanunu had been a member of Hamas who betrayed that organization he would have been hanged or shot by firing squad, or had his throat slit without trial. If he had been a traitor to Iran, he would have been shot or hanged. If he had passed US nuclear secrets to Russia, he would have been electrocuted.

That traitorous bastard is lucky he lives in a country that does not have the death penalty. He served prison time for a mere 18 years, not even the life imprisonment his crime merited. He is now under a deservedly strict parole.

Do I hear your plea to release the Israeli soldiers kidnapped from their posts by Hezbollah? I don't! Maybe my hearing is not so good anymore. Naaah, it is the deafening silence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:13 PM

"This means that a Palestinian and her children and grandchildren are barred from returning to their homeland by Israeli law.In contrast a Jewish person from anywhere in the world has the legal right to enter Israel permenantly"

The one most important thing Jews learned from the Holocaust is the importance of having somewhere to go unconditionally when the rest of the world doesn't care to save you. If 6 million could have gone to Israel there would be a few more around to argue this point with Albert.

"did his utmost to further provoke the Palestinians with his "walkabout" at the muslim mosque in Jerusalem ....a walkabout which involved him being guarded by around 1000 armed guards."

Sharon needed guards- because Arab nutcases would have torn him apart for walking around- an impeccable example of freedom of expression. - good reason for sending suicide bombers around Israel?

"or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative."
Gazans had an opportunity to normalize relations with Israel upon disengagement from Gaza. Instead they chose Hamas which promotes Israel's destruction. Now common sense tells me that Israel shouldn't be helping Gazans economically in any way until the agenda changes to a peaceful one where commercial relations can even exist. Hamas believes Israel left Gaza because their terror tactics work, so they are promoting them. I don't know about you but, I wouldn't give bread, medicine, electricity, water to my nextdoor neighbor who wanted to come into my house and seek Martyrdom for their cause. If they discover the agenda not quite working in Gaza, there is an opportunity to change it, but they have no will to do that. They are in effect at war- and bad and good people die in war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:29 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have.

If they got the same consideration as the Palestinians have, there would be tens of thousands of them in prison without any charges and without any access to any kind of justice at all.

I guess you only define "human being" as Jews and non-Jews of European origin (I say of "European origin" because I haven't heard a peep out of you or anyone else about Israel's horrendous treatment of Jews who are not of European origin). But that's ok. They're only brown skinned people and not really human after all, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Gazans had an opportunity to normalize relations with Israel upon disengagement from Gaza. Instead they chose Hamas which promotes Israel's destruction.

Israel was already blockading Gaza before Hamas was elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:06 PM

Guest, whoever you are, President Carter was a bad president, and is a worse ex-president. But his ideas fit right in with the usual crowd here. I do exempt from that comment his efforts to bring peace between Egypt and Israel...his one achievement.

CarolC, why is it when you run out of cogent argument you resort to race baiting? I believe you are about the only one here who does. Perhaps you project your bias against white, European Jews on the rest of us? Of course Israel's supporters would love to get rid of those brown-skin Yemenite Jews, and North African Jews, or those black-skin Ethiopian Jews. They're just not Nordic enough for the rest of us. Barf!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:50 PM

Bingo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:09 PM

CarolC, why is it when you run out of cogent argument you resort to race baiting? I believe you are about the only one here who does. Perhaps you project your bias against white, European Jews on the rest of us? Of course Israel's supporters would love to get rid of those brown-skin Yemenite Jews, and North African Jews, or those black-skin Ethiopian Jews. They're just not Nordic enough for the rest of us. Barf!

The Israeli leadership and the Zionist leadership have a racist, supremacist ideology and racist, supremacist practices. Their treatment of the Palestinians as well as the treatment of the non-European Jews are proof enough of this.

My question to you is this - why do you only condemn bad things that are done to European Jews by people other than the Isreli leadership, but not to non-European Jews by the Israeli leadership?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:14 PM

Whack-a-Mole!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:36 PM

In answer to your question... it's not race baiting. It's pointing out the gross hypocrisy of people like Peace (and apparently, you) who go around calling other people Jew haters, while turning a blind eye to the treatment of some Jews by the government that you and he are defending.


It's all in the way we categorize and group people. I categorize and group them in these terms...

Category - Human beings:

People of all religions, and of no religion, and people of all "races" and "ethnic groups".


Sub categories:


Ethical people -

Those who recognize the humanity and equal rights of all groups.

This group includes members of all religious and ethnic groups, but it does not include members of the governments of some countries, including that of Israel.


Unethical people -

Those who do not recognize the humanity and equal rights of all groups.

This group also includes members of all religions and ethnic groups, particularly the governments of some countries, including that of Israel.


You and Peace seem to group people differently. You appear to have a category of people who are above any kind of criticism no matter what they do, and how badly they treat their fellow human beings, and groups who are not entitled to be defended by anyone under any circumstances. This is supremacism.

It's you and Peace who are the racists. Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:40 PM

I am not an athiest but I find myself to be more agnostic all the time, when I see what is being done in the name of religion. Love and tolerance are not embraced by many, but those who are the most intollerent are the first to cry discrimination. Organized religion has much to answer for be it Muslim, Christian or Jew! It is time to bury the hatchet and if necessary, bury Christ, King David and Muhammad as well for the betterment of us all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:43 PM

By the way, if pointing out the racism inherent in Peace's and John on the Sunset Coast's positions is "race baiting", then so is calling people "Jew haters".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:01 PM

CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

As I previously said, you are, as far as I can tell, the about only poster who has injected race into the discussion.

At any rate, as far as I'm concerned--based on your last posts--you are of as little consequence as my toe nail parings in your discussion here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:09 PM

CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

Peace has done so numerous times right here in this thread, as well as other threads. Read the thread for yourself. I took your comments about race baiting to be an endorsement of his position in this regard. I apologize if you do not endorse those kinds of comments coming from him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:25 PM

CarolC take a look in the mirror!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:42 PM

Prior to John's post, Sandy, I have not accused anyone of race baiting. Not ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:49 PM

I wasn't going to do it, but Mrs. JotSC is getting ready for us to go see cowboy music thereby giving me the time. I scrolled through Peace's comments on this thread, and did not see anywhere that he called anyone here a 'Jew hater.' I did see your comment of May 18 at 4:26 where you accused him of of using the term on other threads. Well, I researched as much as I'm going on this subject. You, CarolC, have no cred left with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:57 PM

Here you go, John. Here's just one of the many...


Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace - PM
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.



Or perhaps I misunderstood Peace, and he wasn't saying that everyone who criticizes what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians is anti-Israel. Of course, only Peace can tell us one way or another.


You, CarolC, have no cred left with me.

I never imagined that I had any cred with you to begin with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:08 PM

You know, I don't think anybody here is particularly racist. Some don't like the policies of Israel, and some do. Stop calling each other names and get back to the topic of discussion - the "facts" of the Palestinian issue.

Some of you are being far too combative, and I'm getting pressure to bar you from Mudcat. If you find yourself blocked, contact me politely by e-mail in a few weeks, and we'll talk about it.

-Joe Offer-
Joe@mudcat.org


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:10 PM

"Organized religion has much to answer for be it Muslim, Christian or Jew! It is time to bury the hatchet and if necessary, bury Christ, King David and Muhammad as well for the betterment of us all!
Brilliant and truly realistic idea - good luck! You've really solved this problematic discussion here. By the way watch what you say on the internet. Some folks have gotten themselves in deep trouble in the Muslim world for saying things about -you know who.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:11 PM

CarolC you said:
"Israel did start the 1967 war, and the reason it is of the utmost importance to bring this to the awareness of people is because Israel is using its fiction about '67 being for them a defensive war in order to say that they were legally entitled to take land by conquest. As long as Israel is allowed to provoke wars with its neighbors and then take their land by conquest, there will never be peace in the region, and there will never be peace for the Israelis."

I do not agree with the occupation of the west bank or the Israli settlements and I think that they should withdraw. However I was alive in '67 and that war was started by Egypt! If we are to mend fences we must look at historical facts with an unbiased eye. Your statement is simply untrue. Isreal should be allowed to live in peace within it's pre '67 borders. Most of the Palistinian refugees were Jordanian citizens and Jordan cut them loose. Nothing to be proud about from either side but Isreal should be allowed to exist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:20 PM

Well Arnie I've lived three score of my three score and ten. One thing about the advancing years is that you look back more than looking forward. Wisdom can be found in history but only us old farts can see it!
          Slainte,
                Sandy


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:26 PM

I do not agree with the occupation of the west bank or the Israli settlements and I think that they should withdraw. However I was alive in '67 and that war was started by Egypt! If we are to mend fences we must look at historical facts with an unbiased eye. Your statement is simply untrue.

This is not true, Sandy. It was started by Israel. I was alive in 1967 also. Just because you hear something on the news doesn't make it true.

Most of the Palistinian refugees were Jordanian citizens and Jordan cut them loose. Nothing to be proud about from either side but Isreal should be allowed to exist!

This is also not true. They were originally from what is now Israel and Occupied Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:37 PM

Yes, but Palestine was part of Jordan at the time of Isreal's creation in 47. The Palestine people were Jordanian and it was Jordan that excluded them and must bear some of the blame. Isreal should have probably been carved out of Germany as retribution but that was snot what happened. Somehow we must go forward in peace!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:52 PM

Yes, but Palestine was part of Jordan at the time of Isreal's creation in 47. The Palestine people were Jordanian and it was Jordan that excluded them and must bear some of the blame. Isreal should have probably been carved out of Germany as retribution but that was snot what happened. Somehow we must go forward in peace!

Palestine was never a part of Jordan, Sandy, and the Palestinians are not originally from what is now or what has ever been Jordan.

I agree, however, that Jordan bears some responsibility for the fact that the Palestinians have not ever had self-determination. Jordan had an agreement with the leaders of what is now Israel to divide the land that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan and split it with Israel. And that is exactly what happened until, in 1967, Israel took the part that Jordan acquired as a result of that agreement. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Jordan decided to take that land because they knew that the Palestinians didn't have the military resources to defend it from being taken by Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:38 AM

"This is not true, Sandy. It was started by Israel. I was alive in 1967 also. Just because you hear something on the news doesn't make it true."
Sorry CarolC! There have been so many wars that they run together in my mind. That should have been the one in 1973 where Egypt bears blame. In 67 Isreal struck first but under duress. The Arabs also have lots of justification. The problem is that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:08 AM

I would just like to pick up the point about Mordechai Vanunu which I raised a while ago.

He served 18 years in an Israeli jail much of that time in solitary confinement.

He served the jail time for revealing that Israel was armed with nuclear weapons .In fact it is the one state in the Middle East to have these nuclear weapons. For the crime of revealing its nuclear arms to the world he was kidnapped by Israeli secret agents in Rome and drugged and brought back to Israel.

After his release from prison he renounced his faith and citizenship of Israel and sought to move to Europe. He has been living in a christian church in Jerusalem and been threatened by zionists.
The authorities have been playing cat and mouse with him and refuse to let him leave.
Israel is an aggressive state with nuclear weapons and the Observer revealed last year that much of its nuclear technology was provided by Britain.It really was like pouring oil on the fire.
Those people who have been loudly proclaiming the democracy of Israel need to face up to the question of Vanunu. Let him go!
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:17 AM

When people reveal the defense secrets of their own country it is called treason. In many places he'd be dead already--as in on the day of his arrest. What exactly have YOU done to help the man, "Guest, Albert"? Other than post on Mudcat that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:27 AM

Sorry CarolC! There have been so many wars that they run together in my mind. That should have been the one in 1973 where Egypt bears blame.

Yes, Egypt did start the war in 1973, for the purpose of taking back land that was taken from it by Israel in 1967.

In 67 Isreal struck first but under duress.

There was no danger to Israel from Egypt in 1967. Israel started this war for the purpose of taking land by conquest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:57 AM

I think the revealing to the world that Israel was armed with nuclear weapons was an act of a deeply humanitarian man.....and I admire Mordechai Vanunu's courage and conscience.

There are many across the world who are thankful that this information was revealed to the wider world.Of course those in the corridors of power, in the upper echelons of the arms manufacturers the nuclear barons and the military would have already known the essential facts about Israel's nuclear weapons.

Other than the belief that he has made an outstanding contribution to the cause of peace I also know that he has undergone terrible personal suffering as a result of him telling the world's public about the nuclear weapons that Israel possesses and which are pointing at its neighbours.

The much misnamed "Peace" person above [what a sad joke that nameis ] asks what I have done to help the Vanunu.
My answer is... not enough but obviously more than you.

As a reader of Mudcat who has come upon this thread I thought I would add my comments about events in Israel.It amazes me that the Zionists writing here seem to think that to read Mudcat you have to support Israel in its ongoing oppression of the Palestinian people.
Free Mordechai and Free Palestine!
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:15 AM

Here you will find a list of Middle East Peace Resources, containing links to people, around the world, who are trying to bring peace to this situation. Perhaps far more could be done, by most of those in here, if you signed up to some of them.

Middle East Peace Resources

Carol, personally speaking, I think it would be a good thing if you let this thread now rest. All that is being accomplished here is fellow posters possibly falling out with one another, due to false accusations being made by you.

It is not what Mudcat should be about. So please, consider, and become a peace-bringer yourself, to this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:36 AM

Well let's see, summer 1967.

Nasser on March 8, 1965 said:
•        We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand. We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood.

Nothing threatening at all about that language is there CarolC?

A few months later, Nasser expressed the Arabs' goal to be:

•        ... the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel.

All he is talking about here is the removal of the political entity isn't he CarolC? He doesn't actually mean any harm to anyone does he? Wonder where all that blood was going to come from that he was talking about in March?

May 13, 1967 a Soviet parliamentary delegation visited Cairo and informed the Egyptian leaders that Israel had concentrated eleven to thirteen brigades along the Syrian border in preparation for an assault within a few days, with the intention of overthrowing the revolutionary Syrian Government. This was a complete fabrication designed by the Soviets to destabilize the Middle East. Similar false information may have been given to Egypt by the Soviets as early as May 2.

The build up and aggressive intent were denied by Israel. UN Secretary General U Thant reported that UNTSO observers on the Syrian border:

•        ... have verified the absence of troop concentrations and absence of noteworthy military movements on both sides of the [Syrian] line.

On May 15, Israel's 19th Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border.

Of course nothing threatening at all in this being done by Egypt, although CarolC maybe you can explain why it is OK for Egypt to actually mass troops on the borders of another nation, while at the same time Egypt objects when another country is accused of doing exactly the same thing.


By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.

Ah, pretty infectious this "massing-of-troops-on-the-borders-of-Israel" for no good reason. But if viewed as a sort of review or a parade I dare say you could argue that the army might as well gather there as anywhere else, but it must definitely not be viewed by anyone as being threatening eh CarolC.


On May 16, Nassar requested the withdrawal of the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956. Egyptian forces moved up to the UNEF lines and began to harrass the UN positions. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. This was a direct violation of the conditions under which Israel had returned control of the Sinai to Egypt after the Sinai Campaign. The UN force was supposed to safeguard Israel from Egypt again closing the Straits of Tiran or launching terrorist attacks from that quarter.

Care to let us in on why Nasser ordered the UN out of Sinai CarolC? Was he concerned that they were wasting their time and that they could be better employed elsewhere? Was he concerned that they might be bored, or that they could be missing their families?


King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30, 1967, under which Jordan joined the Egyptian-Syrian military alliance of 1966 and placed its army on both sides of the Jordan river under Egyptian command. He had little choice since Jordan housed 700,000 Palestinian Arabs whose rioting in November 1966 almost brought down Hussein's government.

Now under what circumstances and for what reason would the ruler of one country put his armed forces under the direct command of the ruller of another nation CarolC?


On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria. President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq added these words to the mountain of provocation:

•        The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

Armed forces in the Arab countries were mobilized. Israel was confronted by an Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft. The armies of Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were contributing troops and arms to the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian fronts.

Nothing threatening at all in that sort of concentration of military might on the borders of a fairly small country.

Quick Check:

- Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft.
- Promises of Palestine soil saturated in blood
- Clearly stated aim the destruction of the State of Israel, the eradication of Israel.
- UN Peacekeepers withdrawn.
- Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

I take it CarolC as Prime Minister of Israel under such circumstances you would have just sat there with thumb in bum and mind in neutral and done nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:41 AM

See this thread for answers to your questions/points, Teribus...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=111199


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:33 AM

From Carol C, to me - "Also, you appear to think that I am the only person posting to this thread. Are you trying to silence people who post things you don't agree with?"

I do not seek to silence anyone, merely to get to them to re-consider. I also do not seek to twist or spin the words of others, or to paint them in an untrue light. I addressed part of my post to you, Carol, as, imo, you are the one dominating this thread, and saying things which are untrue about other posters. That is wrong.

As I stated above, perhaps signing up to one of the Peace Organisations would be a better thing to. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and passion, as do others. Do not waste or abuse that passion, in making false accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:52 AM

From the thread that CarolC referred me to:

"Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts." – CarolC

Let's have a look at what CarolC says aren't facts:

Fact/Non-Fact 1:
May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

What isn't a fact CarolC? Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs did broadcast that, there exists extremely clear recordings of that broadcast – Are you saying that they didn't? If so what grounds have you for saying that they didn't.

Fact/Non-Fact 2:
May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Again recordings of this broadcast prove it to be fact – "The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence" – Now CarolC's contention is that Egyptian troop deployments were defensive. Couple of questions for you CarolC:

1.        If defensive in nature as you say why did Egypt demand the withdrawal of the UN Peacekeepers/Observers?

2.        If that sentence quoted from the Cairo Radio broadcast is "defensive in nature" I'd hate to heard what they would broadcast if they were being belligerent. "The sole method" that Egypt was going to apply against Israel was what CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 3:
May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

The closing of an International Waterway is considered to be a belligerent act by the United Nations – That CarolC is FACT, and there have been a number of international precedents where the UN have adjudicated such actions as acts of war.

Fact/Non-Fact 4:
May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

Clearly stated, there can be no denying what the man said, it is down on record. Now explain to us how someone being ready to "initiate the act of liberation itself" is being defensive? Who were the Syrian forces massed on the Golan going to "liberate"? What do you understand as being the meaning of the word "initiate"?

Fact/Non-Fact 5:
May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

Just how would Nasser achieve that objective defensively CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 6:
May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

Statement of fact CarolC, are you saying that Nasser did not say that on May 30th 1967? Or are you saying that he lied and that the armies of those nations were not poised on the borders of Israel?

Fact/Non-Fact 7:
May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

Fact the paper exists, simple matter of record.

Fact/Non-Fact 8:
May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

Acting strictly defensively exactly how would the forces of Egypt and Syria "cut Israel in two" CarolC? To "cut Israel in two" wouldn't the forces of Egypt and Syria have to invade Israel?

Fact/Non-Fact 9:
May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

Are you saying that those words were not uttered by the Iraqi President CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 10:
June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

Fact the paper exists, simple matter of record.


Fact/Non-Fact 10:
June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

Fact or are you saying that they didn't.

By the bye CarolC – Jordan did not participate in the 1973 Yom Kippur War

"The moment is coming when we will march on Damascus to overthrow the Syrian Government" (this is the reason Nasser removed the UN observers and closed the Straits of Tiran) --General Yitzhak Rabin on Israeli radio, May 11, 1967

Now that little outburst from Rabin could not in any way have been as a result of the following could it CarolC:

Jan -March 1967 -
Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel. March 3 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7." UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin is rebuked by Eshkol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:06 AM

Carol C, to me - "Please show me which accusations made by me are false."

Of course, and I have taken the liberty of putting them into 'bold'. I always think, that if you are saying that someone has 'said' something, then it is always best to quote those very words, from the poster concerned, so that all may see the words you are talking about. Perhaps it would be a good idea if you did this in future, Carol. That way, no-one can be misled, or falsely accused.

Below is the post from John, in italics, with your reply to him directly underneath:

"CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

Peace has done so numerous times right here in this thread, as well as other threads. Read the thread for yourself. I took your comments about race baiting to be an endorsement of his position in this regard. I apologize if you do not endorse those kinds of comments coming from him. "


In your post to 'peace' below, you inferred those words, without proof.

"I don't see any reason to allow other people to define my side of the argument. I'll define it myself. You, for instance, try to always frame it in terms of those who support human rights for Palestinians as being Israel haters and Jew haters/bashers. I can certainly understand why you would need to do that, though, since you're trying to defend the indefensible, and it's the best you've got. Still, most intelligent people can see right through that sort of thing."


Yet once more, in your post to John, below, you say:

"By the way, if pointing out the racism inherent in Peace's and John on the Sunset Coast's positions is "race baiting", then so is calling people "Jew haters". ............It's you and Peace who are the racists. Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom. "

They did not call you that, Carol. I have looked through every single post above, and nowhere have these posters used the words you have claimed they have, to you, or to anyone else. They have, however, disagreed with you. If I have overlooked the post(s) you are talking about, then perhaps you could put them in for me.


From you - "Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom. "


Surely both sides have the right to their human rights and their freedom? Both sides are screaming in pain, for various reasons. The Palestinian mother cries the same tears as the Israeli mother.

May I suggest you read the post below again, paying paritcular attention to the part I have 'bolded', for those words, to me, contain more wisdom and humanitarianism that any other words on this thread.

Taken from - BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:11 PM

"..................So while you folks get all teary-eyed about displaced people, save some of those tears for the other displaced people. And until such time as you demonstrate in your posts that what you seek is a solution for humans, not just Palestinian humans, I will contine to read your posts with disdain, and there will be no common ground here, either....I respect that you have views. Respect that they are not the only views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM

Norman Finkelstein,the well known American academic and prominent critic of Israel's policies against the Palestinians has been arrested in Israel and is about to be deported.Apparently he has been told he cannot return for ten years.

He was on his way to the occupied territories when he was taken into custody.

Although there is a right of return in Israel it seems if you are a Jewish critic of the Zionist policies that are directly oppressing Palestinians you are subject to arrest and deportation.

Of course if you a member of the International Solidarity Movement protesting at the demolition of Palestinian houses you are likely to be arrested,shot at or run over by one of those huge Israeli bulldozers.

If you are a Palestinian critic you will face imprisonment,beatings or torture, a visit from a death squad or just a shell exploding in your kitchen.

albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM

Here's something new. "Iran has promised Hamas new rockets and more funds, an expression of the Islamic Republic's displeasure with recent news of renewed Israeli-Syrian peace talks, the London-based newspaper, Asharq Alawsat reported on Sunday."
Looks like Israel's neighbors are panicking at the possibility of peace with Syria which may mean end of Syrian arms support for Hamas and the other jihadist militant forces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM

'Here you have TWO rights, TWO people who are right in terms of ancestral claims.'

from an interview with
Nadine Gordimer
a Jewish South African writer, political activist and Nobel Prize in literature laureate.
Her writing has long dealt with moral and racial issues, particularly apartheid in South Africa. She was active in the anti-apartheid movement, joining the African National Congress during the days when it was banned as a terrorist organization

'But all the differences aside, it appears that the strongest similarity Gordimer sees between apartheid and the struggle between Israelis and Palestinians is what she calls "Israel's brutal methods in the occupied territories."

"There is a similarity, alas, in the way Palestinians are being treated in the occupied territories, the brutal methods." '

Gordimer said she was "shocked and saddened by the behaviour of Israel in the occupied territories," asserting that Israel is "much stronger" than the Palestinians, and should therefore "restrain itself."

Though Israelis might feel their country is fighting for a just cause, Gordimer says they should feel something quite different.

"I think Israelis should feel very troubled, and indeed some Israelis feel troubled, with the brutality and lack of common humanity shown to people in the occupied territories"'

The thread is about the 'facts' and MUST include the acknowledgement of the privations of everyday life behind the 'Seperation Wall' and the work that civil rights activists and peace makers, whether Jewish, Israeli, Arab or others are doing to bring this to the attention of the world.


Please read the report of the Caritas charitable organization working with the children behind the 'Seperation Wall' these are the 'facts' of everyday life

'..... Endless paperwork must be completed and then the child will be put into an ambulance. but this ambulance is permitted to travel only a few hundred metres up to Bethlehem checkpoint. It can go no further. It can go no further because it is Palestinian. Even ambulances are not allowed passage through the checkpoints to hospitals in Israel irrespective of paperwork.'

And once the child is safely in the hospital inside Israel where are his or her parents? They are invariably stuck the other side of the Apartheid Wall to their child, unable to get permission from the Occupation to themselves visit and care for their sick children during their hospital treatment.'

'Palestine diminishes day by day. It gets smaller and smaller. It cannot thrive and its children suffer from a Failure to Thrive. It cannot develop, and its children illustrate that fact through their continued development of poverty related illnesses.'

extracts from

Behind the Wall - 'Medical Conditions caused by Political Decisions'
Window Into Palestine
Rich Wiles


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
                                                                                                                  
                                                Friedrich Nietzsche


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:26 AM

I have heard Norman Finkelstein. His hatred for Zionism is equal to or exceeds yours Albert except that he publicly states his wishes that the Israeli state lose a future military conflict in a big way and be overthrown and eliminated. He went there to espouse hate speeches, not to live, and as a visiting guest to any country this is not necessarily a right to enter. It was most likely a publicity stunt because he knew he'd be turned away, and now Albert and company can make propaganda of it all, especially because he is Jewish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:27 AM

A call from
Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP), one of the largest American Jewish peace organizations dedicated to promoting an American foreign policy in the Middle East based on democracy, human rights, and respect for international law

'Although Israel supposedly disengaged from Gaza more than two years ago, its 1.5 million residents have been under a near total siege since June 2007. Gaza's borders — land, air and sea — are controlled by Israel. All major entry and exit points have been sealed, making it almost impossible for residents to work. Access to vaccines, dairy products, fresh foods and clean water have been severely limited since June 2006, when Israel shelled Gaza's main electric power generator.

In September of this year (2007), the humanitarian crisis deepened when the Israeli Cabinet authorized further cuts of fuel and electricity. Israel justified this move by saying it was a response to Qassam rockets fired into Israel by militants in Gaza. But Israel's actions amount to collective punishment of civilians — a violation of international law.

In just the past four months, 10 Gazans have died as a direct result of being denied medical attention, a basic human right. As one young Palestinian mother, Laila el-Haddad, wrote in her blog: "We are prisoners constantly waiting and helplessly hoping for decisions to be made that determine whether (we) live or die — both figuratively and literally."

The situation in the West Bank is not much better. Residents there are subject to daily humiliations at hundreds of checkpoints throughout their territory. In addition, Israel continues to build the Separation Wall, which cuts Palestinians off from each other. It also continues to expand settlements on expropriated Palestinian land, despite the supposed freeze on such activity. In September, Israel took over a five-square-mile area in the West Bank, east of Jerusalem, where it plans to build 3,500 houses, a hotel and an industrial park.'


BUT
.. it doesn't have to be this way.

Jews of conscience must speak out against human rights abuses committed by Israel in our name.

As American citizens who end up funding the Israeli occupation through our taxes, we also are obligated to speak up and act.

There are a number of ways to directly help people in Palestine. One can donate to organizations that provide humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza, such as Middle East Children's Alliance, or join local groups like Madison Friends of Jewish Voice for Peace or the Madison-Rafah Sister City Project.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:51 AM

To hear and see Prof Finkelstein in his own words discuss the situation in Lebanon and Israel go to LIVELEAK and type his name into the search box at the top of the page.
He is a stern and outspoken critic of the attack on Lebanon and a defender of the right to resist such an attack.
David


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:57 AM

If Canada, a soverign nation, were to allow a terrorist group to set up camp in southern Ontario, and they used that base to launch rockets at Detroit what would be the response of the USA? If Canada refused or was unable to control them would the USA invade and if so would it be justified? Would they call bombing Detroit an act of war?
This is the basket case that is the middle east.
If your neighbours don't throw rocks at your house, perhaps you won't feel the need to to throw bricks at theirs!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:07 AM

Guest, Peace-bringer, how are you able to post under multiple user names and not have your posts get deleted?

As I stated above, perhaps signing up to one of the Peace Organisations would be a better thing to. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and passion, as do others. Do not waste or abuse that passion, in making false accusations.

As far as I am concerned, I have not made any false accusations. Your accusation, however, I do consider false.

They did not call you that, Carol. I have looked through every single post above, and nowhere have these posters used the words you have claimed they have, to you, or to anyone else. They have, however, disagreed with you. If I have overlooked the post(s) you are talking about, then perhaps you could put them in for me.

The terminology isn't always exactly the same, but the meaning is...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace - PM
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.



Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Next War.
From: Peace - PM
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:07 PM

I'd suggest that the thread be completely abandoned by people who don't hate Israel or Jews. Then the people who do will be able to have reasoned discourse amongst themselves


(This last one implies that anyone who continues to discuss the subject hates Israel and Jews.)

In response to this from me...

"But the fact is, those people went on to become the government of Israel. So should we hold all Israelis responsible for their terrorist government? No, we shouldn't. That would be racist. As is holding all of the Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Hamas."

He posted this...

YOUR racism is showing, lady. Make it parallel."


There were also several on a thread that got deleted and on other threads, but I don't think Joe wants me going back and quoting all of them here in this thread.


I've already said why I am focusing on what Israel is doing and not on what Hamas and Hezbollah are doing. You can see it for yourself right here in this thread. My reason is because focusing on Hamas and Hezbolla won't solve the problem. Their existence is a response to the problem. We can see what the problem is when people say (as has been said in this thread by at least one poster) that they support an independent state for the Palestinians, but when asked if they think Israel should withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, there is no answer. Such people say they support a Palestinian state, but they don't. They are only paying lip service to a Palestinian state. What such people really want is for Israel to continue exactly as it's doing, but they want to be able to claim the moral high ground by saying they "support" an independent state for the Palestinians.

Let me ask you this "Peace-bringer"... do you support the idea of Israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 lines?

It's not peace that you are bringing, "Peace-bringer". It is suppression of the truth. A great libel and a great injustice has been committed against the Palestinians. Until this is addressed and corrected, there won't be any peace in the Middle East. This is why in South Africa, they have a "Truth and Reconciliation" policy. Reconciliation isn't possible as long as the truth is being suppressed.

With regard to this from Peace that you quoted...

And until such time as you demonstrate in your posts that what you seek is a solution for humans, not just Palestinian human

The solution for the Palestinian humans is also the solution for everyone else. Until this problem is addressed, none of the other problems will be solved. This one is the linchpin. The problem is Israel's expansionist policies. These policies are creating instability and wars and violence all throughout the Middle East. This is the problem that needs to be corrected. Once that happens, everything else falls into place.


As I stated above, perhaps signing up to one of the Peace Organisations would be a better thing to.

Not necessarily. There are many ways people can make a difference. Helping to bring the truth to the surface is as valid a way to help as any other. Without people doing this, the problem will never be solved, because the kinds of lies that have been and are being told about the Palestinians and Israel's neighbors spread hatred, and they also are being used to justify Israel continuing to do whatever it wants to whomever it wants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:14 AM

Teribus, it's a fact that Egypt's military capabilities did not pose a threat to Israel. It's also a fact that the Israeli government and military knew that fact, Egypt's rhetoric notwithstanding. The documentation is in the thread I linked to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:19 AM

I would like to add some comments about American academic Norman Finkelstein who has just been deprted from Israel for criticising Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and other neighbbouring countries.

Finkelstein's mother who came from an ultra orthodox background was a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto and also survived the Majdanek Death camp and two other slave camps.

Her first husband who was also in the Ghetto died in the war.Her second husband,father to Norman, survived Auschwitz. All his relatives were killed in the Holocaust.

Finkelstein is hated by the Zionists for many reasons notably his defence of the Palestinian people and their right to resist Israeli attacks and oppression.

He was also the author of a study which demolished claims that Palestine was an empty or near empty land when the Zionists took over....although this mention of his work does no justice to the scholarly book that he published.
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:29 AM

If Canada, a soverign nation, were to allow a terrorist group to set up camp in southern Ontario, and they used that base to launch rockets at Detroit what would be the response of the USA? If Canada refused or was unable to control them would the USA invade and if so would it be justified? Would they call bombing Detroit an act of war?
This is the basket case that is the middle east.
If your neighbours don't throw rocks at your house, perhaps you won't feel the need to to throw bricks at theirs!


I think this analogy is not very accurate. I think a more accurate analogy would be this: if someone is standing on your neck with a big old boot, you're going to do whatever you can to try to get it off, even if it means jabbing your fountain pen in his leg. The guy with the boot would be Israel and the guy under his foot would be the Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:48 AM

My grandfather's entire town's Jewish population was sent to Tremblinka and perished- does that give me some kind of credential too?

Finkelstein is no friend of Israel. Scholarly and in favor of Palestinian terrorist methods to achieve their goals equals not friendly. That's not too hard to figure out. I think Israel should welcome with open arms those who speak of peace methods to resolve the issue, whoever they may be, or whatever happened to their parents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:29 AM

So CarolC, from your post of 25 May 08 - 09:14 AM in reply to points posed to you in my post of 25 May 08 - 06:52 AM we can take it then that you were in error when you stated in response to the question

Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts." – CarolC

Now as to your contention that in 1967 - "it's a fact that Egypt's military capabilities did not pose a threat to Israel. It's also a fact that the Israeli government and military knew that fact,"

Yes I'd agree with that, and I am sure that most of the IDF Senior Commanders of that time would agree with you. I am totally convinced that in the event of hostilities breaking out the Israeli military would be confident that they could beat Egypt.

Now here is the fly in the ointment CarolC, because it wasn't just Egypt was it? Egypt's rhetoric was extremely belligerent because Nasser had put together a coalition of Arab Armies and had got them drawn up and fully mobilised on Israel's borders. A combined enemy force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft, positioned as it was on your borders poses an undeniable threat CarolC, irrespective of how confident you might be in the capability of your own troops.

In June 1967 the Israelis were faced with the same problem Napoleon had in 1815, he was confident that with his Army he could defeat those who opposed him - but only if he could face them one at a time. To orchestrate that you must ensure that you direct events, you must take and hold the initiative, hence Napoleon's surprise advance through Charleroi on June 14th 1815, and the Israeli Air strikes of June 5th 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:51 AM

Palestinian suffering has been terrible for far too long but Israel has only been a part of the problem. Other Arab and Persian states in the area have fanned the flames for their own reasons disrupting all peace efforts. Others such as the defunct Soviet Union played the deadly game from a safe distance.
Why do not other Arab states offer citizenship to Palestinians who have lived within their borders for three generations? Why disrupt every effort to find a peacefull solution? Why does Israel not withdraw from all those damn settlements as they promised? Why does any country arm in the middle east?
The answer my friend, is blown in the wind!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:58 AM

"Let me ask you this "Peace-bringer"... do you support the idea of Israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 lines?"

I support the work of all people who are trying to bring humans together, without lines, (1967 or 2008) religions, history, lists of previous wrong doings, occupations, or bombs dropped. This situation will never heal whilst there are those who will not let things settle. The past is past. The people of the present have to heal, so that the people of the future can live their lives in peace. No lines should be drawn in the sand, nor walls built. The land belongs to all.

We are people, first and foremost, before we are 'religions'. When the day comes that Jew can take the hand of Muslim, and Muslim the hand of Jew, and realise their hands are exactly the same, then we will be getting somewhere. It is, of course, already happening, but the powers that be choose to focus on the bad, not the good, thus continuing the tragedy on both sides. If the media focussed upon the wonderful things that are happening, then that good feeling would spread far and wide.

"The solution for the Palestinian humans is also the solution for everyone else."

Exactly. That is what 'peace' was saying, I believe. This needs "a solution for humans" , as he stated. Remove the word 'Palestinian' or 'Jew' and see how easy the solution becomes.

However, you then go on to once again, bring in blame.

"Until this problem is addressed, none of the other problems will be solved. This one is the linchpin. The problem is Israel's expansionist policies. These policies are creating instability and wars and violence all throughout the Middle East. This is the problem that needs to be corrected. Once that happens, everything else falls into place."

No, everything will only fall into place once both sides recognise that at different times, both have been wrong, and both have been right. The sooner that is accepted and all the humans involved in this sad story are able to see each other as brothers, not enemies, the better it will be for all.

Israel has been wrong, Palestine has been wrong. You can either argue about it, for eternity, or move on, to peace. You state your words above, I could also state the Palestinian leaders have been training children to hate and kill, and so the 'blame' would go on, ad infinitum. There is much wrong in all of this, on both sides, driven by extremists, who revel in hatred, and in keeping that hatred alive. It is the ordinary people who need to win this war, and they need to win it peacefully.   

It cannot be a 'You stop first' situation. It can only be "We both stop together'

This hatred can only be stopped by love.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:04 AM

Ok, Teribus, let's have a look at them one at a time.


Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."


What "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute?


May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Again, what "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute?


May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

What "fact" is beardedbruce stating here? Is it the fact that Nasser made an announcement, or that he blockaded the Straits of Tiran? Or is it that Johnson made that statement? Or that the statement that Johnson made is accurate?

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

Is the "fact" that el-Assad said what he did, or that that he had the military might to back it up?

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.


Again, what is the "fact" in each of these that can either be disputed or not disputed?


Now here is the fly in the ointment CarolC, because it wasn't just Egypt was it? Egypt's rhetoric was extremely belligerent because Nasser had put together a coalition of Arab Armies and had got them drawn up and fully mobilised on Israel's borders. A combined enemy force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft, positioned as it was on your borders poses an undeniable threat CarolC, irrespective of how confident you might be in the capability of your own troops.

Except that Israel had already announced its decision to invade Syria and overthrow its government (documentation in the other thread). Egypt's mobilizing of forces on its border happened after Israel made this announcement. Egypt and Syria were responding to this announcement from Israel. They were in the defensive posture in response to Israel's announcement that it was going to attack Syria and overthrow its government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:09 AM

Children please this is how wars are started I mean look at the middle east


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:16 AM

Why do not other Arab states offer citizenship to Palestinians who have lived within their borders for three generations?

Because it is illegal under international law and the UN charter for Israel to not allow these people to return to their homes.

Why disrupt every effort to find a peacefull solution?

All of the Arab countries in the region have said that they will make peace with Israel if Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. Since the pre-1967 borders are the only legal ones under international law and the UN charter, their position is the reasonable (and legal) one. So in this case, it is Israel that is disrupting every effort to find a peaceful solution.

Keeping the Palestinians confined to tiny bantustans, unable to move from village to village, or to access their orchards or other places where they make their livelihood, or to visit their family in other villages, or to use their own water resources does not produce peace. Sorry, but I know that if someone was doing that to you or your loved ones, you wouldn't stand for it. Why should they?


Why does Israel not withdraw from all those damn settlements as they promised?...

The answer my friend, is blown in the wind!


The answer is because they are in the process of ethnically cleansing all of the Palestinians from occupied Palestine. The reason they need to do this is to preserve their "demographic". If they annex the West Bank and East Jerusalem while there is still a Palestinian majority in those areas, they will lose the Jewish majority in Israel. So they have to coerce the Palestinians into leaving so that they can annex the Palestinians' areas and make them a part of Israel without upsetting their demographic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:44 AM

I support the work of all people who are trying to bring humans together, without lines, (1967 or 2008) religions, history, lists of previous wrong doings, occupations, or bombs dropped. This situation will never heal whilst there are those who will not let things settle. The past is past. The people of the present have to heal, so that the people of the future can live their lives in peace. No lines should be drawn in the sand, nor walls built. The land belongs to all.

The past is not the past as long as the lies are still being told and they are still being used as an excuse to withhold any kind of human rights from the Palestinians. The continuing use of these lies to promote the agenda of removing the Palestinians from occupied Palestine drags the past kicking and screaming into the future. The Palestinians of the present cannot heal until Israel stops what it is doing to them and leaves them alone.

We are people, first and foremost, before we are 'religions'. When the day comes that Jew can take the hand of Muslim, and Muslim the hand of Jew, and realise their hands are exactly the same, then we will be getting somewhere.

They could do it now. All of the Arab countries in the region would love to shake the hands of the leaders of Israel over an agreement for Israel to withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. It's not because of hatred of Jews that the problem exists. It's because of Israel's expansionist policies that the problem exists.

Exactly. That is what 'peace' was saying, I believe.

I disagree. Peace has been attacking people who speak out for human rights for Palestinians for a very long time.

This needs "a solution for humans" , as he stated. Remove the word 'Palestinian' or 'Jew' and see how easy the solution becomes.

This is irrelevant to anything I have said, because I don't frame it in terms of Palestinian or Jew. Peace does frame it this way, and that is a big part of why what he is doing is an attack. I frame it in terms of the government of Israel and the Zionist leadership (and their supporters), and the people who do not support the government of Israel and the Zionist leadership. Nevertheless, you show me how removing the word "Palestinian" from the equation stops Israel's expansionist policy.

No, everything will only fall into place once both sides recognise that at different times, both have been wrong, and both have been right. The sooner that is accepted and all the humans involved in this sad story are able to see each other as brothers, not enemies, the better it will be for all.

How can it if Israel is denying the Palestinians any citizenship to any country or any human rights whatever. For you to say this is like saying that the solution to apartheid in South Africa or slavery or segregation in the US south was to see that both sides have been wrong at different times and to be able to see the Whites in those countries as brothers. I tell you what. Watch the videos that I have posted links to in this thread. You tell me how what you are proposing is going to stop the house demolitions, the theft of land, the appropriation of water resources, the denial of movement of goods and people from one part of occupied Palestine to another, the settler attacks, the IDF forces urinating on the roofs of Palestinian houses and on Palestinians who are walking down the street. You tell me how the Palestinians can forget this situation that is crushing the very life out of them and their society as we speak, by seeing the people who are doing this to them as anything other than enemies.

Israel has been wrong, Palestine has been wrong. You can either argue about it, for eternity, or move on, to peace

You talk about it like it's in the past. It isn't. The Palestinians are living under apartheid right now. And this is what is making peace impossible. You can't ethnically cleanse a people and expect them to not react in a way that you don't like. I know you wouldn't put up with what they are being subjected to. Why should they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:04 PM

It's a good step, GUEST, but as long as people continue to use the old lies as an excuse to justify the continuation of what is being done to the Palestinians (and there have been many right here in the Mudcat), the problem will not be solved.

Go back and watch the videos I've posted links to. In one of them, former members of the Israeli military are saying that the only way for this situation to be resolved is for people to speak up about it. They are saying that the situation is driven by US public opinion. US public opinion will never change from that of continuing to give Israel unconditional support no matter what it is doing to the Palestinians if people aren't ever exposed to the truth. These former soldiers are saying that Israelis don't know what is being done to the Palestinians in their name, and that if they did know about it, they wouldn't stand for it. I believe them. They are in a position to know. And they are saying that we in the US need to get the word out about the reality in occupied Palestine and to pressure our politicians to stop supporting Israel unconditionally. This is what is needed in order for the problem to be solved.

South African apartheid, and slavery and segregation in the US were eliminated in just this way. Silence about what was being done to Blacks in these situations did not bring about the end to these institutions. It was people speaking up about them that ended them. It is no different with this situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:22 PM

Ok, CarolC, let's have a look at them one at a time.

"Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

What "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute? - CarolC

How about the fact that Egypt is clearly stating its hostile intent toward Israel? Which is rather at odds with your contention that Egypt's posture was purely defensive. Egypt is clearly under no threat from Israel. Egypt, according to you has massed its troops on Israel's borders in support of Syria, who you say has been threatened by Israel. So I presume that if Israel had attacked Syria, those Egyptian forces would have attacked Israel, in which case their deployment and positions could only have been geared towards the offensive not the defensive.

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

"Again, what "fact" is contained in this quote for me to dispute or not dispute?" - CarolC

How about the fact that Egypt had ordered the UN Peacekeepers out of Sinai? Now why would they do that if as you say their posture was defensive? Once more they factually and categorically state their intent to wage total war against Israel.

May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

"What "fact" is beardedbruce stating here? Is it the fact that Nasser made an announcement, or that he blockaded the Straits of Tiran? Or is it that Johnson made that statement? Or that the statement that Johnson made is accurate?" - CarolC

The fact that Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran in contravention of international law. In doing so Egypt stood guilty of a belligerent act against a sovereign country recognised by the United Nations - I'd say that that was a pretty important fact wouldn't you CarolC.

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

"Is the "fact" that el-Assad said what he did, or that that he had the military might to back it up?" - CarolC

The facts stated here are that Syria's armed forces are mobilised, in position and ready not only to defend against any Israeli attack but to invade Israel. By the way CarolC why is it right for Assad to state this as a recognised member of the Syrian Government, while it is reprehensible for an Israeli Army Officer (i.e. not a member of any government hence no real authority) to make a similar threat against Syria

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

"Again, what is the "fact" in each of these that can either be disputed or not disputed?" - CarolC

Well you must know CarolC because didn't you say this:

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts."

Are you attempting to convince people on this forum that those things did not happen? That those statements were not made? If you are then you must surely be delusional because all are well documented, recorded matters of fact.

"Now here is the fly in the ointment CarolC, because it wasn't just Egypt was it? Egypt's rhetoric was extremely belligerent because Nasser had put together a coalition of Arab Armies and had got them drawn up and fully mobilised on Israel's borders. A combined enemy force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft, positioned as it was on your borders poses an undeniable threat CarolC, irrespective of how confident you might be in the capability of your own troops." - Teribus

"Except that Israel had already announced its decision to invade Syria and overthrow its government (documentation in the other thread)." - CarolC

Really? Who exactly in the Israeli Government announced that Israel had decided to invade Syria and overthrow its government?

"Egypt's mobilizing of forces on its border happened after Israel made this announcement." - CarolC

But Israel didn't make any such announcement did it CarolC?

"Egypt and Syria were responding to this announcement from Israel. They were in the defensive posture in response to Israel's announcement that it was going to attack Syria and overthrow its government." - CarolC

Complete and utter bunkum CarolC.

Now how do you explain the following, could this in any way be described as provocation?:

Jan -March 1967 - Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel.

March 3rd 1967 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7."

UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin (Not a member of the Israeli Government) is rebuked by Eshkol (Prime Minister of Israel and as such very much a member of the Israeli Government).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:25 PM

Here's a link to the video with the former Israeli soldiers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=related


This is how peace is going to be accomplished... by giving the Palestinians a voice for the first time and opening a window to the world on what is being done to them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsesMjWkAl8&feature=related


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:50 PM

Oh, Carol.

Waaay back you accused me of supporting ethnic cleansing. Of course, I don't. So you dipsy doodle along making stuff up as you go. You are a spiteful individual, and you cry foul when people return your vitriol in kind. In two words, die screaming. Why not, huh? It's what you wish for Isrealis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:17 PM

How about the fact that Egypt is clearly stating its hostile intent toward Israel? Which is rather at odds with your contention that Egypt's posture was purely defensive. Egypt is clearly under no threat from Israel. Egypt, according to you has massed its troops on Israel's borders in support of Syria, who you say has been threatened by Israel. So I presume that if Israel had attacked Syria, those Egyptian forces would have attacked Israel, in which case their deployment and positions could only have been geared towards the offensive not the defensive.

He did this on May 17th. Israel had already announced its plans to attack Syria and overthrow its government on May 11th. Since Egypt had a mutual defense agreement with Syria, Egypt was obligated to do what it could to assist. This is a defensive posture as is the US' assurances that it will come to Israel's aid if it is attacked.

How about the fact that Egypt had ordered the UN Peacekeepers out of Sinai? Now why would they do that if as you say their posture was defensive? Once more they factually and categorically state their intent to wage total war against Israel.

Egypt was posturing for deterrence purposes. Even the government of Israel took it as such.

The fact that Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran in contravention of international law. In doing so Egypt stood guilty of a belligerent act against a sovereign country recognised by the United Nations - I'd say that that was a pretty important fact wouldn't you CarolC.

This was done in response to Israel's announcement of its plans to attack Syria and overthrow its government. Attacking Syria and overthrowing its government is in contravention of international law. Announcing an intention to attack Syria (a sovereign country recognised by the United Nations), and overthrow its government was a belligerant act by Israel. Syria had a right to defend itself from such an attack, and Egypt had an obligation to assist in its defense.


The facts stated here are that Syria's armed forces are mobilised, in position and ready not only to defend against any Israeli attack but to invade Israel. By the way CarolC why is it right for Assad to state this as a recognised member of the Syrian Government, while it is reprehensible for an Israeli Army Officer (i.e. not a member of any government hence no real authority) to make a similar threat against Syria

This was the announcement by Yitzhak Rabin on May 11. At the time, he was the chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces. Assad was responding to Israel's stated intention to attack his country and overthrow its government. He had a right to defend his country. He also had a right to use whatever deterrents he could employ to prevent Israel from doing so, including verbal threats about what the consequences to Israel if it followed through on its announced plans.

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts."

Are you attempting to convince people on this forum that those things did not happen? That those statements were not made? If you are then you must surely be delusional because all are well documented, recorded matters of fact.


Ok, I will rephrase. I dispute the idea that they support beardedbruce's contention, and they are random quotes in which whatever "facts" they are supposed to represent have not been identified by beardedbruce.

Really? Who exactly in the Israeli Government announced that Israel had decided to invade Syria and overthrow its government?

The chief of staff of the Israel armed forces. This from Wikipedia...

"Chiefs of staff typically have no personal or positional power of their own, acting only on behalf and with the authority of their superior."


But Israel didn't make any such announcement did it CarolC?

The chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces made the announcement on behalf of his superiors.


Jan -March 1967 - Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel.

Many of these "border incidents were instigated by Israel.

March 3rd 1967 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

I'd like to see some references for this incident that don't all come from the same source. When I google "kibbutz shamire" landmine 1967, and "kibbutz lahav" explosion "train tracks", the only references that come up are all with the exact same wording, and all of them from sources that one couldn't really call impartial.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.


I can only find one reference to this, and it is one of the same sources from which the other events are listed.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.


Syria was not shelling the DMZ intensively. Israel was violating the DMZ by plowing it up with armored tractors and bulldozers, and approaching the Syrian border. As the armored tractors and bulldozers approached the Syrian border, Syrian forces fired on them. The UN observer in the video I posted in the other thread witnessed these events. He said that Israel was doing it deliberately to provoke the Syrians into responding so they could use the response as a pretext for attacking Syria.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7."


Pretexts.

UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

UPI must have heard that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime from the chief if staff of the Israeli armed forces, acting on behalf of his superiors. And again, Israel conveniently leaves out the incidents for which it is itself responsible.

Account given by a UN observer who was there at the time...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4144954716305864975

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin (Not a member of the Israeli Government) is rebuked by Eshkol (Prime Minister of Israel and as such very much a member of the Israeli Government).


The chief of staff acts on behalf of his superiors, which include the Israeli government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:19 PM

Waaay back you accused me of supporting ethnic cleansing. Of course, I don't. So you dipsy doodle along making stuff up as you go. You are a spiteful individual, and you cry foul when people return your vitriol in kind. In two words, die screaming. Why not, huh? It's what you wish for Isrealis.

Attempting to silence people who are speaking out against ethnic cleansing is a real and active form of support for ethnic cleansing. If you don't intend to support ethnic cleansing, stop trying to silence people who are speaking out against it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:29 PM

GUEST,"Peace-bringer", are you an authority figure here in the Mudcat? If you are, I think you should identify yourself. If not, Joe has instructed us to discuss the subject of the thread and not the other people posting to the thread. Discussing me is pretty much the only thing you have done in this thread. We have been told that that is considered "combative" behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:10 PM

Thank you CarolC for confirming that no member of the Israeli Government announced any paln on the part of Israel to invade Syria and topple the Government of that country.

Therefore in future do not state that the Israeli Government threatened to invade Syria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:43 PM

Only a few months ago Israeli warplanes attacked Syria with high explosives and of course still occupies the Syrian Golan Height where I understand it has just built its first US style shopping mall.I am sure those Syrian who have been exiled from the Golan must be very impressed with the discounts and bargains!
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:46 PM

To say that the 1967 six day was fought for the defence of Israeli aggression is the typical pathetic anti-Israeli view of real historical events. Israel knew it could win militarily over Egypt only if could could take out a lot of their air force and tanks first in the impending inevitable conflict- otherwise they could just wait for the surrounding storm coming at their small state from all sides leading to their complete doom. Get over it and move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:00 PM

Albert - I suppose you know why they attacked that area in Syria recently? Just to start a war?- I don't think so. The Syrians were downright embarrased as to what was going on there, and the Israelis figured it out. Some North Koreans were killed in the strike , but the world didn't here much credible defence on their part or the Syrian part as to what they were doing there. As I said they are in peace negotiations with Syria now- something Hamas and Hezbolla don't seem to like too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:09 PM

Thank you CarolC for confirming that no member of the Israeli Government announced any paln on the part of Israel to invade Syria and topple the Government of that country.

Therefore in future do not state that the Israeli Government threatened to invade Syria.


Ok.

The Israeli government's plan to invade Syria was announced by the chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:22 PM

To say that the 1967 six day was fought for the defence of Israeli aggression is the typical pathetic anti-Israeli view of real historical events.

Heh. Here we go with the anti-Israel stuff again.   This is an accusation that has no merit. It is used as a smear tactic in the absence of a legitimate argument.

Israel knew it could win militarily over Egypt only if could could take out a lot of their air force and tanks first in the impending inevitable conflict- otherwise they could just wait for the surrounding storm coming at their small state from all sides leading to their complete doom. Get over it and move on.

Egypt didn't want war with Israel. That's why the government of Egypt had scheduled to meet with the US government for talks and negotiations. Israel stepped up the timetable for its attack so that these talks could not take place. It did so because it wanted war. Syria did not want war, either. And Jordan did not want war. Israel did everything it possibly could, including bombing villages in Jordan and violating the DMZ between Israel and Syria in order to provoke a response from these countries to use as a pretext for war. Watch the video that I posted with the eyewitness account from the UN observer. They all knew that they were not in a position to win a war with Israel. Only Israel wanted war. And they knew they could win it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:46 PM

"The Israeli government's plan to invade Syria was announced by the chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces." - CarolC

Eh No it was not CarolC. High Ranking Staff Officers do not set Government Policy and have no authority to speak on matters of Government Policy. Immediately after making the remarks that he did make on Israeli Radio Rabin was rebuked by none other than the Prime Minister. Don't know about you CarolC but I reckon to be given a bollocking by a Prime Minister, you've got to have screwed up in a fairly major way.

There was no Israeli Government Plan to invade Syria and topple the Government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:38 PM

Some anti-Israel person said earlier in the thread that the Six Day War was between Israel and Egypt. Pray tell, WHY were Jordan, Syria, Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Algeria also involved--they sent troops and arms. And all in six days. They are marvels of organization by the looks of it. Wow. In just six days. I am amazed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:40 PM

Would someone besides you know who answer? I'd like to read the response. But not from that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:32 PM

There is a concise synopsis of the Six Days War at this site http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/9999/6day1967.htm which appears to be a neutral military history site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:37 PM

Dayan was a genius, imo. Small point: the French did not give the Mirage to Israel. Agents in France 'purloined' the design.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:38 PM

Looked at the numbers, Bobad. Seems like a fair fight to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 May 08 - 09:41 PM

Re: Jewish Voice of Peace: In quoting this organization on May 25th, Emma B refers to it as "one of the largest Jewish American peace organizations." Well, I don't know what that subjective term means, and I had never previously heard of JVP (which of course is neither here nor there) so I visited their web site this evening.

JVP appears to be a group founded about a dozen years ago, which now has nine chapters in the country which includes three in northern California; it is headquartered in Oakland, CA. From the few pictures I found on their website, their rallies seem to draw rather sparse crowds. In fact, their description of one of their rallies mentions a crowd of 200-300 persons, which I would consider pretty small in todays' world of rallies.

One thing that struck me as a positive position is that JVP seems open to the possibility of a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine problem...although this is not their first option. That is a far more open position from that of many individuals and other organizations which blame Israel first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:29 AM

Back to Arnie...
Yes the Israelis did attack Syria with warplanes and high explosives just a few weeks ago.
Although there have been some kind of negotiations between Syria and Israel since then I think they will not amount to much as Syria wants the Golan Heights back and Israel wont give it up.So a further stand off there.
What is alarming in all this is the possibility of an American attack on Iran which will be Bush's parting gift to the world before he leaves office in November while Hillery Clinton said recently she had no problem with a US attack on Iran.
Meanwhile,Israel,the one nuclear stae in the Middle East continues to attack its neighbours in Lebanon ,Gaza and Syria and is one of the most powerful military force in the world thanks to American military,economic,technological and financial aid.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:45 AM

"Although there have been some kind of negotiations between Syria and Israel since then I think they will not amount to much as Syria wants the Golan Heights back and Israel wont give it up.So a further stand off there." - Albert

Oh I don't think the picture is as bleak as you would like to paint it Albert. The Israelis and Syrians have been in negotiations before and came quite close to a settlement that suited both sides. The stumbling block was not return of the Golan which Israel under agreed terms would be only too pleased to return to Syria. The problem the last time was water.

"What is alarming in all this is the possibility of an American attack on Iran which will be Bush's parting gift to the world before he leaves office in November" - Albert

Of course Albert I suppose all things are "possible" but your second doom-and-gloom prediction is hardly "probable" is it. What are you basing this opinion of yours on? I mean, let's see, there remains just over seven months of GWB's Presidency, he does not control the House of Representatives or the Senate, so how on earth is he going to get Congressional approval for a war with Iran?

"...while Hillery Clinton said recently she had no problem with a US attack on Iran." - Albert

OK Albert, tell us in Hillary Clinton's own words the circumstances under which she would have no problem with a US attack on Iran - Or in doing that does that spoil your storyline a bit too much. If you or anyone else reading this thread are unaware of the facts, the circumstances that would call for a US attack on Iran is IF Iran first attacked Israel ("I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran if it attacks Israel" - HRC). Should that (Iranian attack on Israel) happen Albert you could quite accurately have said, "ANY person holding the Office of President of the United States of America, Barak Obama included, would have no problem with a US attack on Iran", because Albert the US is obligated by Treaty to come to the aid of Israel if Israel is attacked.

"Meanwhile,Israel,the one nuclear state in the Middle East continues to attack its neighbours in Lebanon ,Gaza and Syria and is one of the most powerful military force in the world thanks to American military,economic,technological and financial aid." - Albert

- Lebanon Albert? Israel is not attacking anyone in Lebanon. It briefly responded to a border incursion and raid by members of Hezbollah in 2006 in which two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and a number of others died. Israel responded to some 15,000 rocket attacks based from South Lebanon. Had there been no raid, no kidnapping and no rocket attacks there would have been no Israeli action against Hezbollah.

- Gaza Albert? You mean the place from which rocket attacks are indiscriminately launched against Israeli civilians almost every day?

- Syria Albert? Oh the raid on the secret military facility parked way up there by the Turkish border. The raid that the Syrians and the North Koreans have been extremely quiet about. I must admit, judging by the satellite photographs, the "clean-up" operation mounted by the Syrians at the site in the aftermath of that raid was truly impressive. Now why would that be Albert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:31 AM

The Guardian today carries an account of the arrest and deportation of the Jewish American academic Norman Finkelstein from Israel.
It said that the Association For Human Rights in Israel has condemned his deportation saying that it bore all the hallmarks of a totalitarian regime.
David


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:52 AM

Reply to Teribus
The return of the Golan Heights continues to be the stumbling block between any peace agreement between Syria and Israel.
Therer are now 20000 illegal Israeli settlers who are busy creating facts on the ground to prevent the return of the Golan and a right wing hawkish pumped up Israeli government which is extremely unlikely to agree to any return of Syrian land from Israeli control.

In addition Israel attacked Syria just a few months ago.
Just imagine if the USA had been attacked by ,say,Canada?

I had to chuckle at the description by Teribus that Syria had a secret facility near the Turkish border.Since when has any military facility ever been anything other than secret?

albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:07 AM

Re Hillary Clinton and Iran
Clinton threatened to obliterate Iran if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
However ,Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country.
This is in contrast to nuclear armed Israel which has spent some 60 years attacking its neighbours in the Middle East with everything from cluster bombs to high explosives ,phospherous to gunships.
It should also be said that there is an American nuclear fleet stationed just a few miles of the coast of Iran which has in the past shot down an Iranian civilian passenger plane . And it was America which encouraged Iraq to attack Iran back in the early 1980s . That war cost a million casualties so Iran is surely entitled to be alarmed when an American presidential hopeful starts to make nuclear threats .
David


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:59 AM

"The return of the Golan Heights continues to be the stumbling block between any peace agreement between Syria and Israel." - Albert

Source for that please Albert.

Now let's have a look at Israeli Settlers previous track record with regard to "Peace-For-Land" Deals.

- Egypt/Israel: Israeli settlers moved into Sinai after 1967 - They left and returned to Israel when the whole of the Sinai was returned to Egypt.

- Palestinian Authority/Israel: Israeli settlers left Gaza and returned to Israel as part of a deal between the PA and the Israeli Government. On this occasion the Israeli Government kept its part of the bargain the PA singularly failed to deliver on the undertakings it agreed to - indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians launched from inside Gaza continue to this day.

So going on that the 20,000 Israeli settlers that Albert says are on the Golan will have a choice, return to Israel or stay in Syria, my guess is that they will return to Israel.

"Re Hillary Clinton and Iran
Clinton threatened to obliterate Iran if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
However ,Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country." - Guest David.

Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?

"it was America which encouraged Iraq to attack Iran back in the early 1980s" - Guest David

Do you have any source material to back that statement up Guest David?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:38 AM

Albert seems to know a lot about the future outcome of events unfolding. We thank you for letting us know in advance the intentions of all the countries involved.
Regarding Finklestein and this comment "Association For Human Rights in Israel has condemned his deportation saying that it bore all the hallmarks of a totalitarian regime". No-one has a right to visit any country. You have to have proper visas, documents, permission etc. Hell - I was turned away at the U.S. Canadian boarder by U.S. homeland security for trying to bring in cds for sale- but the association for Human rights didn't condemn my deportation. This is simply a publicity stunt. Run with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:33 AM

"I had to chuckle at the description by Teribus that Syria had a secret facility near the Turkish border.Since when has any military facility ever been anything other than secret?" - Albert

Try Portsmouth Dockyard, Albert - Currently the military facility that serves as "Home to the Royal Navy" it is also a recognised historic site open to the public and the location of the first mass production assembly line anywhere in the world. There are quite a few others, so please feel free to chuckle on.

I take from your reticence on the subject that the "alarming" prospect of the "possibility of an American attack on Iran" is just one of your own pet "bogey-men" and that your prediction of it happening before Bush leaves office is hogwash, based on nothing except your own biased outlook.

Now the Golan:

In 2005 the Golan Heights had a population of approximately 38,900, including approximately 19,300 Druze, 16,500 Jews, and 2,100 Muslims

The Palestinian organization Fatah began raids into Israeli territory in early 1965, with active support from Syria. At first the guerillas entered via Lebanon or Jordan, but those countries made concerted attempts to stop them and raids directly from Syria increased.

Israel's response was a series of retaliatory raids, of which the largest were an attack on the Jordanian village of Samu in November 1966, and in April 1967, after Syria heavily shelled Israeli villages from the Golan Heights, Israel shot down six of Syria's MiG fighter planes, provided by the Soviet Union. Israel warned Syria against future attacks.

Before the Six-Day War, the strategic heights of the Golan, which are approximately 3,000 feet (1,000 m) above the bordering Hulah Valley in Israel, were used to frequently bombard civilian Israeli farming communities far below them, although Moshe Dayan (Israeli Defense Minister during the 1967 war) would later state that it was often the result of Israeli provocations in the demilitarized zone.

According to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, former Israeli General Mattityahu Peled claimed that more than half of the border clashes before the 1967 war "were a result of our security policy of maximum settlement in the demilitarized area" (Please note it was a demilitarized area - settlement within that area was not prohibited). Syrian attacks killed 140 Israelis and injured many more from 1949 to 1967.

In May 1967 before the Six-Day War of 1967, Hafez Assad, then Syria's Defense Minister declared: "Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian Army, with its finger on the trigger, is united... I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." ("..the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation" Eh? By God that's defensive fightin' talk if ever I've heard it - right CarolC?)

In June 2007, approximately 40 years following the Six Day War in which Israel took over the Golan Heights, it was reported that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had sent a secret message to Syrian President, Bashar Assad saying that Israel would return the land in exchange for a comprehensive peace agreement and the severing of Syria's ties with Iran and terror groups in the region. Meanwhile, on the same day, former Prime Minster, Benjamin Netanyahu announced that the former Syrian President, Hafez Assad had promised to give him Mount Hermon in any agreement.

Now here we come the strange part, because with the Golan everybody seems to be talking about different lines:

- The 1967 Line which Syria wants as it allows Syria to keep land it took by force and occupied in 1948.
- The 1923 Line which Israel wants to use but Syria rejects because it was drawn up the League of Nations and does not give them a shore on the Sea of Galilee
- The 1949 Armistice Line which Syria objects to as it does not give Syria water frontage on the Sea of Gallilea

The map shows the differences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GolanHistoricalBorders.svg

For all those who seem to advocate Israeli withdrawal from the Golan to the pre-Six-Day War boundaries on the basis that it is land taken by force of arms. Can you explain why it is therefore perfectly acceptable that Syria is entitled to retain land taken by force of arms?

If the answer has got anything to do with time Israel has occupied the land they took for about twice as long as the Syrians occupied the land they took in 1948.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:53 AM

Former US president Jimmy Carter has branded the Israeli blockade of Gaza as"One of the greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now".
He was speaking at the Hay On Wye Literary Festival in Wales this week.
David


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:25 PM

Re Carter Quote: This means exactly what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:12 PM

I have just finished a first reading of an on-line article from 'commentarymagazine.com,' "1948, Israel, and the Palestinians: Annotated Text" by Efraim Karsh.

The article is about five pages of text, and about five pages of footnotes. The footnotes cite myriad contemporaneous documents (c1920-1949) from Jewish, Arab, and British documents and sources, as well as some later documents and histories.

I believe there is much to be learned no matter which side of the argument you are on. And best of all, you can verify, if you wish, the author's sources leading to his conclusions.

And for the record, yes, Commentary is a magazine which is primarily aimed at Jews, and is less liberal than most Jewish publications.

PS: I printed the article using Word, because the default text is too small for these old eyes. Using New Times Roman, size 12, the text and footnotes comprise 20 pages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:32 PM

I think former President Carter was refering to the strangling of Gaza and its approx one million population by the Israeli military.
For well over a year the Gaza has been under a kind of lockdown with entry and exit points closely guarded by Israel.
Its power plants have either been destroyed or have run out of fuel and its population is close to starving .In particular its tens of thousands of children are going hungry and lack medicines and basic healthcare .
The sewage system has been made unworkable by the Israelis and a tide of sewage from the million strong city means a very serious health and hygiene has developed.
In addition to the above Israel is continuing shelling Gaza and hundreds of innocent civilians including many children and whole family groups have been wiped out in their cars,on the streets or in their homes by shellfire,sniper fire or by missiles launched from the air.
Last year children playing on the beach were blown up by a shell from an Israeli warships.These warships apparently have also prevented Gazan fishing boats from working thus adding to the food problems in the city.
I think that is what what former President Carter meant when he spoke of the human rights crimes being committed in Gaza.
David


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:52 PM

A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:53 PM

For further news and views about the Palestinian struggle for basic human rights Mudcat readers could do worse than look at the ELECTRONIC INTIFADA website which collects articles about events in Israel and the Middle East.
One recent story concerns the many cancer patients who need urgent medical care outside Gaza but have been denied permission to leave by the Israeli authorities.
One patient , Ahmed El Baghdadi, said that the Israel Security Service told him he could have that permission on condition that he became an informer for Israel.
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:00 PM

"Former US president Jimmy Carter has branded the Israeli blockade of Gaza as "One of the greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now".

Well I see that the man's perspective of things remains as faulty as ever. Without any shadow of a doubt the greatest incompetent to hold the Office of the President of the United States of America. Nice man he may be, a leader he most definitely was not, in fact the only reason I believe anyone would follow this man, would be out of some misplaced feeling of curiosity.

"Israeli blockade of Gaza - Greatest human rights crimes existing on earth right now"

OK "Peanut" how's about these? where do they rate on your radar:

- Darfur: 400,000 killed; 2,500,000 displaced. Here is what "Peanut" Carter had to say about it - The United States is exaggerating when it described the Darfur conflict as "genocide," former US president Jimmy Carter has said, warning that the use of the term was legally inaccurate and "unhelpful". This (Darfur) by the bye was what that other useless, ineffectual chatterer Kofi Annan described as, "The gravest humanitarian crisis facing the world today", I think that was back in 2003 - Still haven't managed to do anything about it.

- Tibet: Back in 1980, Jimmy Carter led the boycott of the Moscow Olympics in protest against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But when asked if he supported a boycott over Chinese aggression in Tibet, he replied:

"That was a totally different experience in 1980, when the Soviet Union had brutally invaded and killed thousands and thousands of people," he said, rejecting the idea of boycotting the Beijing games to protest China's crackdown in Tibet.

He did not address whether just the opening ceremonies should be boycotted. China invaded Tibet on March 10, 1959. According to Tibetan sources, since then 87,000 people have been died. China has carried out a policy to destroy Tibetan culture through destroying Tibetan cultural/religious centers, transplanting millions of ethnic Chinese there, brutally repressing opposition, and forcing into exile the Tibetan leader.

- Burma: According to Carter - "Western nations have very little influence, if any, in Myanmar. The two major countries that do have an influence are India and China. And China is philosophically and politically averse to interfering in the internal affairs of any other country - because they don't want anybody to interfere in their internal affairs.

So I don't think that's a possibility. My hope is that eventually, the sooner the better, the military regime in Myanmar will see the advantage to themselves to open up the society to more freedom."

Now to anyone with any sense of perspective Darfur, Tibet, Burma and Zimbabwe rank way ahead of Gaza in terms of humanitarian concerns for the international community. So why did "Peanut" head for the Middle-East at the particular time that he did. Basically to muddy the water and ruin whatever chances of advancing the situation being explored by the current US Administration. It is not the first time that he has done this, his inept "meddling" in North Korea during the Clinton Administration was at odds with what Clinton actually warranted him to do; the US got suckered into an aid programme while North Korea developed its nuclear weapon. Iran is now the problem it is because of Carter's incompetence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:09 PM

Hind Al Ashkar, from the Palestinian refugee camp at Al Nuserat in Gaza died on sunday after being refused permission by the Israeli army to leave Gaza.The Israeli army controls the crossing into and out of Gaza.
She sought permission to leave several times for life saving medical treatment because of a kidney condition but her request was always refused.
With her death the number of Palestinian patients who have died as a direct reult of the siege of Gaza now stands at one hundred and sixty three.
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:10 PM

"For all those who seem to advocate Israeli withdrawal from the Golan to the pre-Six-Day War boundaries on the basis that it is land taken by force of arms. Can you explain why it is therefore perfectly acceptable that Syria is entitled to retain land taken by force of arms?"

The silence on this is kinda deafening isn't it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:12 PM

"A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008)."

Don't start with facts, bobad. The only facts allowed on this thread are facts that make Israel look like it is completely unreasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:14 PM

Guest David: My question was purely rhetorical. Mr. Carter's comments have zero impact on me. As I mentioned in a previous post, he is the worst president in my lifetime (going back to FDR), and has become the worst ex-president in history, having inserted himself into US foreign policy, or any policy, unbidden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:20 PM

But surely by common consent the worst president ever is the current president G Bush?

david


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:28 PM

Gee- what a lot of ad hominem argumentum.

I think T is right when he points out that on the scale of things, Darfur surely outweighs Gaza as a humanitarian crisis and a crime against the species, by the species.

Oh, and speaking of land acquired through military force, I seem to recall places with funny names like Florida, Oklahoma, Texas....




A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:48 PM

"ELECTRONIC INTIFADA" - definitely no bias in that webpage!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:51 PM

By your consent, perhaps, David; I don't consent.
BTW, I notice that you are still a Guest after posting here for years. If you would register, I could then PM you with this purely personal answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:50 PM

"Don't start with facts, bobad. The only facts allowed on this thread are facts that make Israel look like it is completely unreasonable."

I was just thinking what an oxymoron the title of this thread is.

I've had about as much as I can stand in this forum. I'll spend my time working for peace, not arguing with the zealots of this forum.

Shalom. Saalam. Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:13 PM

Back to you, G of E. Shalom aleichem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:15 PM

But Israel is completely unreasonable! What else could you call the siege of the   city of Gaza for over a year.

The intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes and apartment blocks.

The unleashing of assassination squads across the West Bank.

The confinement by the Israeli army of seriously ill and dying civilian patients in Gaza when they need urgent medical treatment elsewhere.

The demolition of Palestinian homes by the thousand.

The illegal occupation of the West Bank and its settlement by armed fanatical zionist paramilitaries one of whom shot dead over 40 muslim worshippers some years ago near Hebron.

And we wont forget the monstrous bombing of Lebanon which destroyed thousands of homes,flattened apartment blocks,massacred convoys of fleeing civilians, wrecked hospitals and bridges and so on.

Unreasonable...Nobel peace prize winner Jimmy Carter thinks Israel 's siege of Gaza is a war crime and it is one of many committed by Israel.
ALBERT


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:35 PM

If Hamas declared today they would stop all rockets and attacks and recognize Israel's right to exist immediately, this would all end fast. Israel would in turn stop attacks and enter into peace negotiations. Economic relations would follow. Israel has no interest in fostering the kind of hostilities coming from Gaza. The will has to be there on both sides - not one side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:33 PM

"The intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes and apartment blocks." - Guest Albert

"The demolition of Palestinian homes by the thousand." - Guest Albert

Albert, have you got even the vaguest inkling of what that would look like if indeed it were true?

How about this Guest Albert - this article mentions "intensive bombing of civilians in their homes":

Thousands Killed in Bombing Raids!

The Blitz was a campaign of intense bombing of not only London and Coventry but many other major cities and towns where factories and other key manufacturing industries were built. But because bombing was not accurate many of the bombs fell on streets and houses killing thousands of civilians and destroying hundreds of houses and other properties.

From the 7th September 1940 until 16th May 1941 the German Luftwaffe carried out an intensive bombing campaign on British cities and it's industries.

London was attacked on 57 consecutive nights between 7th September and the 2nd November with over one million bombs dropped in two months with further raids in December 1940 as well as from March to May 1941.

Fifteen other cities also suffered major bombing attacks such as Coventry, which caused widespread damage.

Over 41,000 civilians were killed during this period in Britain with a further 137.000 people reported injured.

Or alternatively look at Valetta in Malta a much smaller area with far poorer defences, it got hit three times worse than London for a far longer period.

If you want to see the results of "intensive bombing" Guest Albert have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wesel_1945.jpg

Intensive bombing and shelling of civilians in their homes for over a year eh Guest Albert. Any idea what the casualties have been Guest Albert? I mean they must number in the hundreds of thousands Guest Albert, intensive bombing and shelling for over a year, the place must be totally flattened like those pictures of Wesel in 1945.

Yet you know its odd Guest Albert, because I haven't read of anything remotely akin to what you describe, nobody's reported it, nobody's photographed it. Now how could this be Guest Albert? Or is it just a emotive load of complete and utter bollocks wrapped up in typical left-wing socialist exaggeration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:34 PM

Ah Teribus,
Atrocities committed against the civilian population of Gaza and you, mealy mouthed, seek to divert attention elsewhere as if it were of no importance whatsoever.

You only have to look at the television screen over the past year or so to have seen the huge amount of damage cause by the indiscriminate shelling of Gaza....and if it wasn't indiscriminate it must have been targetted.

You mentioned several cities bombed   during the war but of course you have not mentioned those closer to Israel....like....for example Beirut ....destroyed by Israeli shelling and bombing in the early 1980s and again in 2006.

And who was the "Butcher of Beirut"? Why none other than that old war criminal himself Ariel Sharon who went on to become the political leader of Israel.

Thousands died in Beirut the first time round.Victims of Israeli shelling and bombing.And then of course the Israelis arranged for its fascist falange allies to go into the refugee camps populated largely by old men,women and children to slaughter with knives and machine guns.
An Israeli tribunal held Sharon responsible for this atrocity but was he placed in the dock? Was he hell!

And in 2006 Israel once again went on the rampage in Lebanon bombing ,shelling from the air ,land and sea.Who can forget the dozens of women and children slaughtered at Qana by Israeli warplanes or the UN observers blown to bits or the car convoys of terrified refugees strafed with rockets and shellfire? Thousands died as the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon was destroyed.
Teribus ,Jimmy Carter has redirected the world's attention to Gaza ...and the destruction of that city is a terrible war crime !
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:17 PM

The notable American mathematician, David Mumford, winner of the 2008 Wolf Foundation prize for Mathematics has announced that he is to give the 100000 dollar prize to the Palestininian Bir Zeit university near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank and to the Israeli organisation Gisha set up to help Palestinians travel freely.

His donation has gone to the university to highlight the enormous difficulties Palestinian young people face when being educated under Israeli occupation.
david


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:57 PM

Regarding Normal Finklestein: I was in error and I appologize. This was not a publicity stunt, although He appears to be getting some good publicity out of this. I heard him interviewed about it on CBC radio today. He was not going to Israel to give lectures or speeches, He was going to visit a friend in the West Bank which he has visited over the last 15 years. According to him, Israeli authorities questioned him and held him there for 18 hours when they decided to put him on a plane back home and told him not to come back for 10 years. He has no idea why they decided to do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:05 PM

"The will has to be there on both sides - not one side."

How true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:34 PM

I want to try ONCE more, then forget trying again.

Until such time as Hezbollah and Hamas stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombers, there will be no peace. I suspect that H and H know that, so they keep doing it. The Israelis respond in a predictable manner and the losses are high on the Gaza/Palestinian side because the Israeli war technology is better by a long shot. That said, I think Israel would welcome peace.

During the Lebanon war I wrote freguently--exchanged words--with the Israeli Foreign Ministry via e-mail. At the time I suggested that it would be good if Israel simply stopped waging war for THREE days, and if the rockets continued, then take the gloves off and hit the targets hard. They wouldn't accept that line of reasoning, and I guess if I'd been in Israel, I wouldn't have accepted it either. Peace is never a unilateral thing. It will take two 'sides' to achieve peace, and there are many more than two sides involved. It is not in the interests of Hezbollah to let peace happen. I do wish the Israelis would forget targeting any civilian areas and send hunter/killer teams after Hezbollah targets. Find them and kill them. Period. Than maybe Hamas COULD sit down to talk peace. Maybe the answer is for Hamas to shut down Hezbollah. But I tend to think the people who claim to want peace in the Middle East really mean they want Israel destroyed as a precondition to peace talks. Then the factions will talk to each other, without Israel.

Unless Hezbollah is reined in, there will be no possibility of peace. Period. I wish it were otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:49 PM

"And we wont forget the monstrous bombing of Lebanon which destroyed thousands of homes,flattened apartment blocks,massacred convoys of fleeing civilians, wrecked hospitals and bridges and so on."

Just as the Israelis won't forget years of murderous attacks on their civilian population. NO ONE will forget. You won't. They won't. Does this make you happy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:55 AM

The conflict stems from the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from their homeland.I believe the Zionists used the term population transfer.

The Palestinian people and their children and grandchildren are now living in refugee campa across the Middle East and there can be no peace and no justice until they win their right to return if they want it.After all every Jewish person in the world [bar Finkelstein it seems ]has the right to go to Israel.

That is most unlikely to happen under the extreme right wing government that is in power in Israel.

The solution the government proposes is still more attacks,assaults ,theft of land,facts on the ground,illegal settlements on the West Bank,the Apartheid Wall and the slicing up of remaining Palestinian land into strips controlled by the Israeli military.Israel intends to break the Palestinians.

This is where decades of Zionism has led .Israelis now one of the most violent and distorted places in the world.A place where an illegal armed settler can drive by a palestinan and shot him down with barely a word said.Ir is a place where Zionist thugs can beat up and break the arms of Palestinian kids without punishment,it is a place where the majority of the male Palestinian population of the West Bank has been detained or imprisoned by the Israeli state.It is a place where observers to the thousands of houses being demolished by giant bulldozers can be shot dead by snipers or have their backs broken under the blades of those dozers.

albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:57 AM

I haven't forgotten you, Teribus. I'm writing a long one. It's going to take me a couple more days, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:03 AM

Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?

LOL!!!


It's the countries without nuclear weapons that get attacked, not the other way around!

LOLOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:09 AM

A little detail you overlooked that must have slipped your mind, guest David, is rockets, David, being fired from Gaza at Israel, does that ring a bell, David? Over 830 rockets and 840 mortars fired from Gaza have struck southern Israel since the beginning of the year (January - April 2008).

The blockade of Gaza does not prevent rockets from getting into Israel. All it does is prevent Gazans from being able to live. As such, it is collective punishment and a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:17 AM

"ELECTRONIC INTIFADA" - definitely no bias in that webpage!

One could give the same response about websites like that of the ADL as well. (Ironic name for an organization that spends a large amount of time and resources defaming people.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:28 AM

If Hamas declared today they would stop all rockets and attacks and recognize Israel's right to exist immediately, this would all end fast. Israel would in turn stop attacks and enter into peace negotiations. Economic relations would follow. Israel has no interest in fostering the kind of hostilities coming from Gaza. The will has to be there on both sides - not one side.

Although it wasn't as complete as it is now, the blockade was in effect before Hamas was elected. The Palestinians in Gaza did not have control of their borders, shoreline, or airspace after Israel withdrew from Gaza (or before, either). The Gazans were being kept as prisoners there long before Hamas was elected. It's because of this that some of them are firing rockets.

Hamas agreed to a ceasefire, and they even kept it, unilaterally, for a year. The only thing they got in return was targeted killings of their leaders (along with a lot of collaterally killed civilians). So we know from experience that there is nothing Hamas or any other Palestinians can do that will make even one little bit of difference. Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:32 AM

During the Lebanon war I wrote freguently--exchanged words--with the Israeli Foreign Ministry via e-mail. At the time I suggested that it would be good if Israel simply stopped waging war for THREE days, and if the rockets continued, then take the gloves off and hit the targets hard.

It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:18 AM

Interesting article from an Israeli Holocaust surviver on the subject of anti-Semitism...

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=172


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:11 AM

To Carolc
I don't know the extent or the immediacy of the danger that Iran finds itself in.

However it is clear that there are some at the highest levels in the Bush administation and in Israel who would like to launch an attack on Iran.

This would almost certainly take the form of an air attack and would be targetted at the nuclear facilities which Iran says are for civilian use.

I don't think America has the stomach or capacity for another ground war in the Middle East after the debacle it is involved with in Iraq.

It is a sort of awful joke that the USA with its thousands of nuclear missiles and bombs and Israel with its hundred plus bombs [thank you Jimmy Carter for reminding us about those ], can complain about another country developing nuclear facilities even though Iran has stated time and time again it is not developing nuclear weapons but only civilian nuclear technology.

Iran has had the nuclear inspectors in several times to check out their facilities and these inspectors cannot find evidence of nuclear weapons although this morning the Guardian reported that the pressure from America remains .

It is worth noting that Israel will not allow nuclear inspectors into its Negev nuclear facility and will still not allow Morechai Vanunu to leave the country although he has not be inside a nuclear facility for over 20 years.

What does this have to do with the thread? Israel is one of the most militarised countries in the world.It has one of the world's most powerful military forces which have been unleashed without a qualm against civilians time and time again.Only two years ago Israeli warplanes raced of the Syrian president's palace as a reminder of what he can expect if Syria does not behave itself.
A few months ago Israeli war planes attacked a Syrian military facility in the north of the country.

The Israeli military machine is currently strangling Gaza and could launch further attacks at any time.Meanwhile back in Iraq the US has turned parts of Baghdad into a free fire zone.

These are not the actions of rational countries.These are the actions of violent racist governments who pay little or no heed to the well being of Palestinian or Iraqi people. Would Bush think any differently about the Iranians ...I doubt it.

Bush could still launch an attack before November in the hope of playing the patriotic card and scuppering the democrats for their lack of machismo and loyalty to the flag.And there would be voices in Israel urging him to do so.
david


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:24 AM

I wasn't disagreeing with you, David. The italicized parts of my post were quotes from other people. In the part that I think you are responding to, it was a quote from Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:21 AM

The difference between nukes in Iran and nukes in Israel is this: Iranians are jihadists who believe in martyrdom to achieve their goals. Suicide, murder, the death even of Muslims is good as long as it furthers this agenda. To have a nuke to use is a jihadist's dream.
Nukes in Israel - are a last strike resort and deterrence. ( If they wern't, they could have used them by now . There have been instances in Jewish history where Jews have committed suicide instead of being killed or forced into conversion, but generally Jews do not believe in suicide and martyrdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:34 AM

Of course CaroleC!!]
DAVID


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:46 AM

Jihad

The Iranian Mullahs are more interested in preserving and maintaining their power than they are in Jihad. They are not stupid. They know that they will not be able to retain power if their country ceases to exist. And they know that their country will cease to exist if they attempt to attack another country with nuclear weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,David
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:47 AM

Whoa there Arnie,
Remember Iran has never attacked a single country that I am aware of.Its war against Iraq was launched by Iraq with some help from the USA.

I am certainly not advocating a nuclear armed Iran ...that would be another nail in the coffin for the peoples of the Middle East.
But Iran is surrounded by hostile nuclear states.
Israel to the west which will not even acknowledge it has nuclear missiles pointed at Iran.

There is a American nuclear armed fleet just a few miles off shore in the Gulf [imagine an Iranian nuclear fleet in the Gulf of Mexico!] and there is also an unstable nuclear Pakistan to the east.

I dont believe in any of this guff about any one particular nationality or religion being prone to suicide or martyrdom. That smacks of a kind of euocentric orientalism of the kind Edward Said wrote about which is essentially a form of racism.

What about a nuclear free Middle East or would that be to much to ask of both the USA and Israel?
David


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:20 AM

Iran makes it's jihad by supplying weapons to Hezbollah, Hamas, the Taliban and to insurgents in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:31 AM

David & Carole - it's a crazy world. Hard to believe governments can do stupid things that can kill a lot of people. - They do- all the time throughout history.
Nuclear arms should be abolished by all.
"I don't believe in any of this guff about any one particular nationality or religion being prone to suicide or martyrdom." - Suicide bombers call themselves martyrs all the time, and are celebrated by their families- it's no guff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:15 PM

CarolC

"It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah. "


False statement. Please check your facts.

Just because you want it to be true does not make it so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:18 PM

We supply weapons to terrorist, too, even ones that are committing terrorist attacks on our allies, like Turkey. I don't think we're in a position to nuke or even attack another country for doing something that we do ourselves.


Re: Hezbollah rockets and Israeli bombing...I know the facts on that one. I remember the news reports at the time, too. I remember they reported bombing by Israel before they reported the rockets from Hezbollah.

But here's some documentation to back that up...


Hezbollah, under the leadership of Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, enters Israel and captures two Israeli soldiers on July 12. In response, Israel launches a major military attack, bombing the Lebanese airport and parts of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah retaliates by launching hundreds of rockets and missles—believed to have been supplied by Syria and Iran—into Israel.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/lebanontime1.html

2006 July - Israel launches air and sea attacks on targets in Lebanon after Lebanon's militant Hezbollah group captures two Israeli soldiers. Civilian casualties are high and the damage to civilian infrastructure wide-ranging. Thousands of people are displaced. In August Israeli ground troops thrust into southern Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/819200.stm

July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/israel.lebanon.timeline/index.html

July 12:

» Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers and kills eight.

» Israel launches air strikes and sends ground troops into Lebanon for the first time since its 2000 pullout.

-AFP


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/July_War06.asp


JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon after Hezbollah guerillas kidnapped two soldiers and killed three others in a cross-border raid Wednesday.

Israel quickly blamed the Lebanese government for the raid -- and charged it with the soldiers' safe release -- and the Israel Defense Forces began hammering Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Cabinet met to discuss a response.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:25 PM

By the way, right from the start (after they captured the soldiers), Hezbollah was saying "lets negotiate". They didn't want a war. They only wanted a prisoner exchange. The news reportage on the 12th bears this out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zar%27it-Shtula_incident

Zar'it-Shtula incident
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Date July 12, 2006
Location Lebanon-Israel border
Result Beginning of 2006 Lebanon War.

Belligerents
Israel Hezbollah
Casualties and losses
8 killed,
2 captured

The Zar'it-Shtula incident was a cross-border attack committed by Lebanon-based Hezbollah special forces on an Israeli military patrol on 12 July 2006 on Israeli territory. The operation was originally named "Freedom for Samir Al-Quntar and his brothers" by Hezbollah, but it was shortened to "Operation Truthful Promise".[1] Using rockets fired on several Israeli towns as a diversion, Hezbollah militants crossed from Lebanon into Israel [2] and ambushed two Israeli Army vehicles, killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two. Hezbollah demanded the release of Lebanese prisoners held by Israel in exchange for the release of the abducted soldiers. Israel refused and launched a large-scale military campaign across Lebanon in response to the Hezbollah incursion. This marked the start of the 2006 Lebanon War.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Not only did they start the war by using the rockets ( while kidnapping the Israeli soldiers that YOU say were kidnapped BEFORE the IOsraeli bombings) but they also had been using the rockets previously, in bombarding civilian areas of Israel.



"The 2006 Lebanon War was a 34-day military conflict in Lebanon and northern Israel. The principal parties were Hezbollah paramilitary forces and the Israeli military. The conflict started on July 12, 2006, and continued until a United Nations-brokered ceasefire went into effect on August 14, 2006. Hezbollah was responsible for thousands of Katyusha rocket attacks against Israeli civilian towns and cities in northern Israel,[86] in which Hezbollah said those attacks were retaliation for Israel's killing of civilians and targeting the Lebanese infrastructure.[105]


The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence, killing three, injuring two, and seizing two Israeli soldiers.[106"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:05 PM

"You have to understand where this conflict started. As Labors foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd said, Hamas and Hezbollah, the two terrorist organisations, launched rocket attacks on Israeli territory. Furthermore, Hamas and Hezbollah engaged in violations of Israeli territory, capturing and killing Israeli armed force members.

The current conflict began with the Iranian supplied missiles targeting only civilians in Israeli towns and cities. The Israelis enjoy a de   facto peace with the government of Lebanon and formal peace with Jordan and Egypt.

"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:07 PM

We have been told here that Hezbollah committed an act of war, but it wasn't really an act of war...it was a negotiating ploy. Pardon me if I find that logic more way more than a little flawed. I don't believe that Hezbollah gets to set the rules as to how the Israel responds to that kidnapping and shelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Hezbollah kept firing rockets continuously in the past six years after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. ( from a conversation in Aug. 2006)


So your claim is blatently false, as the act YOU have said started the war included rocket attacks on Iraeli civilians, BEFORE any Isralei bombing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:16 PM

Hi CarolC:

""Re Hillary Clinton and Iran
Clinton threatened to obliterate Iran if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
However ,Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country." - Guest David.

"Well Guest David if what you state there is correct then Iran is no danger whatsoever is it?" - Teribus

Clearly stated that the only way that the US is going to obliterate Iran is if Iran attacks Israel with nuclear weapons - I can think of no logical reason why HRC would lie about that, so what she said has to be taken at face value.

According to Guest David Iran does not have nuclear weapons and has never attacked another country (Not strictly true by the way). I know that no-one in their right mind believes that the current Iranian nuclear programme is purely peaceful (Russia and IAEA included) but as we took what HRC said at face value we should similarly take what Guest David has said at face value.

So hilarious as CarolC finds it logic would tend to suggest that if Iran does not have nuclear weapons then they can hardly attack Israel with weapons it doesn't have. So as there can be no Iranian nuclear attack on Israel, there can be no obliteration of Iran by the US.

I must admit I am absolutely dying to see how the UN wriggles as the President of the IAEA explains away Iran's first nuclear weapon test. That'll surely put an end to the Nuclear NPT and then won't the world be that much safer, it'll scare the hell out of Russia and China for certain and if you believe oil is expensive now, just wait, you'll find that you've never been born.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:34 PM

"The blockade of Gaza does not prevent rockets from getting into Israel. All it does is prevent Gazans from being able to live. As such, it is collective punishment and a war crime." - CarolC, 27 May 08 - 02:09 AM.

Bloody hilarious that CarolC, you have a very interesting take on things, you entirely miss the point that not only does the blockade fail to prevent rockets getting into Israel. The "blockade" also seems to fail in preventing the rockets, or components to make them, being delivered to Gaza. But somehow Hamas cannot get in food or medical supplies? Bloody strange that isn't it, particularly if you were under the rather misinformed impression that Hamas actually gives a flying f**k about the Palestinians living in Gaza.

War crimes eh CarolC? You and Guest David and guest Albert seem awfully concerned about war crimes. Is that sort of selective or does it apply across the board?

How about these war crimes:

- Indiscriminate targeting of civilians and civilian centres of population as practiced by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from Gaza, and by Hezbollah from South Lebanon.

- Embedding combat formations and heavy weapons in civilian areas, thereby using that civilian population as a "human shields".

Now according to Guest Albert such things do not happen, according to his accounts of events Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah have never fired a rocket into Israel in their entire existence.

Guest Albert I don't know if you actually opened up that picture link I sent of the town of Wesel, but that was the result of intensive bombing and shelling over a period of three days - You are trying to tell us that Gaza has been subjected to intensive bombing and shelling for over a year? You're havin' a bath aren't you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Hezbollah kept firing rockets continuously in the past six years after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. (Beardedbruce)

I think you confuse Hezbollah and Palestinian rocket attacks:

Hezbollah Attacks Since May 2000

Hezbollah is responsible for several attacks between 2000 and 2006, but a "continuous" firing of rockets is not among what they did.

Nevertheless, the correction to Carol's misinformation stands: The firing of rockets came before the bombing by Israel.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:54 PM

"So we know from experience that there is nothing Hamas or any other Palestinians can do that will make even one little bit of difference."

Nothing? How positive - you'd make a great politician with powerful ideas.

"Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza"

What? Who said that? Probably just that super correct and balanced unbiased information in the Indifada website - I assume.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:13 PM

Hey CarolC,

Here's the Hezbollah attack on Israel on 12th July 2006:

12 Jul 2006        3 soldiers killed, 2 others kidnapped by Hezbollah terrorists crossing the border from Lebanon; among ground forces pursuing the terrorists across the border, 4 were killed in the bombing of a tank and 1 was killed during recovery following the bombing of the tank.

And here's the diversionary rocket attack that the raid was mounted under:

12 Jul 2006        Hezbollah rockets (120) fired from southern Lebanon into northern Israel, striking Shlomi and Shebaa Farms.

On the same day 16 Kassam rockets were fired from Gaza into Southern Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:33 PM

The US claimed that Iraq had a nuclear weapons program that it didn't have and the US then went in and destroyed that country. Oops. It didn't have nuclear weapons. Had Iraq had any nuclear weapons, the US would not have attacked it.

On the subject of the Gaza blockade, yes, people are not able to get their basic survival needs met, and yet somehow the people firing rockets are able to get the components for those rockets. That shows that the blockade does not accomplish the purpose that it is ostensibly meant to accomplish (keeping the rockets from being fired from Gaza). However, some members of the Israeli government have said that the purpose of the blockade is to coerce the people in Gaza into getting rid of Hamas. That seems more like the real reason for the blockade, and that is collective punishment (and a war crime).

Members of the Israeli government said the same thing about Israel's bombing campaign against Lebanon in the early days of it. They were saying that it was supposed to convince the people of southern Lebanon to kick Hezbolla out. That makes Israel's bombing campaign on Lebanon a war crime as well.

I have seen conflicting reports of the location of the first attack when the Israeli soldiers were taken. I have seen reports that It was in Israeli territory, and I have seen reports that the Israelis were in Lebanese territory when they were taken. I have also seen conflicting reports about whether or not there were diversionary rocket attacks at the time that the soldiers were taken. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that one right now. But it is true that Israel had been committing raids, kidnappings, military overflights and other violations of Lebanese territory since it withdrew from its occupation of Lebanon. Israel has many hundreds of Lebanese people whom it has kidnapped, and is holding without any charges made against them, and no trails or convictions. Hundreds of these people are women and children.

Israel thinks it can justify bombing a whole country back into the stone age for a very small handful of soldiers, but if people in Lebanon take three soldiers in order to try to get back those hundreds of people, they are the bad guys. I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:35 PM

I stand corrected, Wolfgang.


From your posting, I get the following rocket attacks prior to the Israeli bombings:



12 Jul 2006 - Hezbollah terrorists infiltrated into Israeli territory and attacked two IDF armored jeeps patrolling the border with Lebanon, killing three soldiers and kidnapping two. Ground forces entered Lebanon in the area of the attack. A large explosive device was detonated underneath an Israeli tank, killing all four of the tank crew. An eighth soldier was killed when IDF troops entered Lebanon to try to retrieve the bodies of the tank crew. Throughout the day, Hezbollah terror organization fired Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at Israel's northern borders' communities and IDF posts.


27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

27 Dec 2005 - A branch of a Palestinian organization connected to Al-Qaida fired 6 Katyushas, damaging a house in Kiryat Shmona and a house in Metulla. In response, the IAF attacked a training base of the Popular Front, south of Beirut.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hezbollah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers and and two civilians were injured.

29 Jun 2005 - More than 20 mortars were fired from across the border. Cpl. Uzi Peretz of the Golani Brigade was killed and four soldiers wounded, including the unit's doctor. Fire was exchanged and helicopters and planes attacked five Hezbollah outposts in the Reches Ramim area.

24 Apr 2005 - Several explosive devices exploded near the Lebanese-Israeli border, in the Mount Dov area. Officials believe the devices were planted by Hezbollah, but this was not confirmed. No injuries were reported in the explosions.

7 Apr 2005 - Two Israeli-Arabs from the village of Rajar near the Israel-Lebanon border were kidnapped by Hezbollah operatives and held in captivity for four days. The men, identified as Muki Ben-Jamal and Nuef Maharj Ben-Ali, said they were interrogated by their captors who wanted information on Israel. They were later released. Israeli officials did not believe that any security information had been compromised.

9 Jan 2005 - An explosive device was detonated against an IDF patrol at Nahal Sion. One Israeli soldier was killed, and a UN officer was killed.

20 Jul 2004 - Hezbollah sniper fired at an IDF post in the western sector of the Israeli-Lebanese border. Two IDF soldiers were killed.

7 May 2004 - Fire in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Dennis Leminov was killed, and two other soldiers were severely wounded. The IDF returned fire.

19 Jan 2004 - An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF D9 while neutralizing explosive charges near Zari't. An IDF soldier, Yan Rotzenski, was killed and another soldier was severely wounded.

6 Oct 2003 - Staff Sgt. David Solomonov was killed when Hezbollah fired at an IDF force south of the =46atma Gate in the eastern sector. In addition, the Hezbollah fired missiles and rockets at an IDF post in the Reches Ramim area.

10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

20 Jul 2003 - Hezbollah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Chetula, killing two Israeli soldiers. The IDF retaliated with tank fire directed at a Hezbollah position, killing one operative manning the post. That night, there were multiple Israeli flights over Lebanon, two of which generated powerful sonic booms over Beirut.

7 May 2003 - Hezbollah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba' farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack. Lebanese authorities asserted that the Hezbollah firing had been preceded by an Israeli army foot patrol crossing the Blue Line.

5 May 2003 - A cycle of armed exchanges across the Blue Line began. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over the country. Subsequently, Hezbollah fired several anti-aircraft rounds with shrapnel landing inside Israel.

22 Mar 2003 - Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli army positions in the Sheba' farms and adjacent areas. This attack followed eight incursions into Lebanese airspace by Israeli aircraft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:40 PM

I don't get my information from the Electronic Intifada for precisely the reason that has been illustrated here. The common attitude around here that "if it comes from Palestinians, it can't be true". So I get my information from other sources whenever possible. Most of the time I try to get it from Israeli Jews. However, I wonder how long it would take someone to cry, "anti-Semitism!" if anyone ever tried to suggest that "if it comes from Jews (or Israelis) it can't be true".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:49 PM

CarolC

But MY statement still stands:

YOUR statement

"It should be noted that Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets into Israel until after Israel had already started bombing Lebanon. Israel started the bombing in that war, not Hezbollah. "

is false and demonstratably not true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:50 PM

And YOU are the one claiming that Moslem sources are liars, whenever we point out anything they say that you do not want them to have said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bankley
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:56 PM

hmmm, just wondering if anyone here has actually been to this area ... or maybe knows someone from there personally.... from either side of the fence....

just curious


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:57 PM

I'm not convinced yet that what I said isn't true. I need to do some more looking around before I accept that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:00 PM

"Most of the time I try to get it from Israeli Jews"
Show me where you got or who said "Israel has no intention of allowing any Palestinians to remain living in Gaza"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:01 PM

Fair enough, CarolC.

I'm not convinced yet that what you say is ever true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:32 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/07/1086460241534.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:06 PM

I don't accept for one moment that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation.It is widely seen across Lebanon as a resistance force to the many Israeli attacks on that country.And of course it was very effective in fighting off the Iraeli military machine in 2006.

I would also point out that Israel still occupies Lebanese land at the disputed Shaba farms. This is an area of land claimed by Lebanon.
Israel has imprisoned many Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners for years often in illegal conditions.It also maintained a degrading prison at a place called [I think Khiam ] which was a byword for torture.This was run by Israeli allies but essentially at the behest of Israel itself. And has CaroleC has correctly pointed out it has continued to attack Lebanon in all kinds of ways.

For many years Israel has been slaughtering its way across the Middles East....shelling refugee camps, destroying Beirut several times, blowing up civilian apartment blocks, strafing fleeing car convoys of civilians and stealing land constantly from the Palestinian people.
Perhaps the Zionists on Mudcat have a different description for this but I think terrorism fits well. State terrorism.
Its doing it now in Gaza where it is waging war on around a million people most of whom are children or teenagers.
ALBERT


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:35 PM

Here's some info - from BBC.
By Kathryn Westcott
BBC News Online

In its early days, Hezbollah was close to a contingent of some 2000 Iranian Revolutionary guards, based in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, which had been sent to Lebanon in 1982 to aid the resistance against Israel.
As Hezbollah escalated its guerrilla attacks on Israeli targets in southern Lebanon, its military aid from Iran increased.

The movement also adopted the tactic of taking Western hostages, through a number of freelance hostage taking cells: The Revolutionary Justice Organisation and the Organisation of the Oppressed Earth, which seized Terry Waite.

For many years, Hezbollah was synonymous with terror, suicide bombings and kidnappings. In 1983, militants who went on to join Hezbollah ranks carried out a suicide bombing attack that killed 241 US marines in Beirut.

Over the two decades, Hezbollah evolved into a movement with thousands of trained guerrillas, members of parliament and a dynamic welfare programme benefiting thousands of Lebanese
        
Hezbollah - or Party of God - emerged in Lebanon in the early 1980s and became the region's leading radical Islamic movement, determined to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon.

In May 2000 - due partly to the success of the party's military arm - one of its main aims was achieved. Israel's battered and bruised army was forced to end its two-decade occupation of the south.
Hezbollah now serves as an inspiration to Palestinian factions fighting to liberate occupied territory.

Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.

Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution, the party also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Although this idea was abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament.

Terror

Hezbollah's political rhetoric has centred on calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Its definition of Israeli occupation has also encompassed the idea that the whole of Palestine is occupied Muslim land and it has argued that Israel has no right to exist.

Hezbollah's spiritual head Sheikh Fadlallah is close to Iran

The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money.


The party has operated with neighbouring Syria's blessing - with the guerrilla war against being a card for Damascus to play in its own confrontation with Israel over the occupation of the Golan Heights.

Over the two decades, Hezbollah evolved into a movement with thousands of trained guerrillas, members of parliament and a dynamic welfare programme benefiting thousands of Lebanese.

Hezbollah proved to be a formidable fighting force
It was passionate, demanding of its members and devoted to furthering an Islamic way of life.

In the early days, its leaders imposed strict codes of Islamic behaviour on towns and villages in the south - a move that was not universally popular with the region's citizens.

But, despite the early history of coercion, the party emphasises that its Islamic vision should not be interpreted as an intention to impose an Islamic society on the Lebanese.

In recent years, Hezbollah has won considerable backing within Lebanon. Its social services programme was popular with the Shia community.

The group's successful hit-and-run guerrilla war on Israel's much-vaunted army assured it some support and a lot or respect from other religious communities.

While, the US listed the group as a terrorist organisation, the government in Beirut declared it a national resistance movement.


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Subject: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:50 PM

I was talking with a member of the Palestinian Observer mission to the UN the other day about a product I sell. I mentioned my discomfort about dealing with Hamas because I am Jewish. He pulled me up sharp [appropriately so] and said that the products will be used to benefit ALL of the Palestinian people, not just those on the West Bank.

The point is, if you treat a group as a unity, there is a chance they will all grow. If they become better educated and more generally prosperous, not just oil rich, there is a chance that all of the people in the region will get along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:08 PM

EBarnacle - Palestinians are among the most educated and entrepreneurial of all the Arabs, those that had the gumption to leave the camps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:00 PM

NOt knowing the product I do have to say that---just like here in the U S we should not lump people into a uniform group. Jews do not, for the most part, vote as a bloc and neither do women, African Americans, etc; Which means, to me, that Palestinians, as well are not a monolithic group.

As to the "oil rich" Arab nations---it is the leaders that enjoy the wealth and cater to the wealthy of all nations and damned be anyone else as they subjugate the poor who labor for them---from all nations.You just have to love the heartfelt belief in their religion---in their interpretation.

Many years ago I was on an airliner seated next to a person from one of the Emirates. He ordered a drink and I asked how that was since I thought alcohol was not allowed---her replied--we just go to the next country that does allow it--religion is for the masses in our part of the world.

We both had a drink and I toasted hypocrisy (silently).

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:21 PM

"It is worth noting that Israel will not allow nuclear inspectors into its Negev nuclear facility and will still not allow Morechai Vanunu to leave the country although he has not be inside a nuclear facility for over 20 years."

That conflates two things and the result is something that makes little sense. The Israelis are not keeping him because he was in a nuclear facility 20 years ago. Hell, if he had info to pass along to whoever, it would have been passed by now. Also, there is no reason FOR Israelis to allow nuclear inspectors into their facilities, imo.

Tell me, does Hezbollah allow inspections of its facilities?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:32 PM

Well we all know that Israel is officially mum on their nuclear program, neither confirming nor denying...wink, wink.

Whether or not Vanunu has more information which can be used, Israel isn't taking chances with that traitor. IMNSHO he probably should be sleeping with the Rosenbergs, but no death penalty in Israel.

But what I really wonder is if Carter, in announcing the number of Nukes that various countries, including Israel, have comes from classified information he received as president (and which he was sworn to protect). I find that very, very problematic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian epiphany
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:45 PM

My point is exactly that. I was wrong to lump the Gazans as "Hamas=Enemy" and not allow for the fact that, even there, not everyone is an enemy. I hope that I can get involved with a few of those entrepreneurs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:22 AM

Hezbollah was formed in response to Israel's occupation of Lebanon. It's purpose was to liberate Lebanon from that occupation. It succeeded in doing that (with the exception of Sheba farms).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:24 AM

That what THEY say!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:47 AM

BTW, Hezbollah came from the Lebanese Civil War in the early 1980s (?). Why the hell you blame Israel for THAT is beyond me. Obviously beyond you, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:13 AM

That the same Sheeba Farms that were claimed and previously occupied by Syria CarolC?

French maps of the area from 1933 and 1945 show the land to be Syrian. Israel captured the land from Syria in 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:25 AM

I see in the papers today that the leader of Israel Olmert has been accused of taking cash bribes from an American businessman who is now testifying against him.
david


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:19 AM

Amnesty Human Rights Report Slams Israel

An Amnesty International report on Human Rights across the world has slammed Israel for harming Palestinians,expoiting foreign workers and undermining human rights.

It says ,according to the Israeli news paper Haaretz that many innocent Palestinians civilians are languishing in Israeli prisons some without any trial.

In Gaza the report goes on to say that Israel has conducted operations which amount to collective punishment with fuel,food and water cut off as the siege tightens.

In addition Palestinian Gazans requiing urgent medical treatment outside the city have been refused permission to leave resulting in many of them dying.
source
Haaretz .com

Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:48 AM

Did Amnesty International also 'slam' Palestine for teaching its children to become suicide bombers, Albert?

Youtube -Palestine - Today & Tomorrow

Child suicide bombers - Wiki

Yasser Arafat had much to answer for, behind his grinning smile. His legacy will sadly, be around for many years to come, unless the Palestinian people take matters into their own hands, and choose to live their lives in peace, with their children being taught that we are all brothers.

Israel too should be teaching her children exactly the same lesson.

Peace will never have a chance if childrens minds are filled with hatred. That hatred becomes so ingrained it will often last a lifetime, being handed down, yet again, to the next generation.

There are two sides to everything. And both these 'sides' are hurting, not only each other, but themselves. They can only survive by going 'forward' in peace, together. No more looking back, only looking forward.

This Circle of Hate MUST be broken, by both sides.

I'd suggest you contact Amnesty International, Albert, find out where they stand on this matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:05 AM

Facts of (sub human) life

While Israel withdrew its troops and communities from Gaza in 2005, it remains the occupying power under international law, which entails responsibilities for the wellbeing of the civilian population.

Israel placed an economic blockade on Gaza in June 2007, following Hamas's takeover, but economic sanctions have been in place since Hamas were democratically elected to run the Palestinian Authority in January 2006

The decision to further cut fuel and electricity supplies was described by Palestinians and international agencies, including the UN, as collective punishment, which is illegal under international law.

Israel's sweeping blockade of basic necessities has reduced Gaza's population to a "subhuman existence," according to a senior UN official.

The World Bank estimated that poverty rates in Gaza stood at 67 percent in April 2008, with the UN suspending food aid for four days due to a lack of fuel for its delivery vehicles.
By these means, Israel has reduced the calorie intake of the Palestinians in Gaza, according to a UN report, to just 61 percent of the average daily requirement.

Lack of electricity has also drastically reduced drinkable water for the 70,000 Gazans who rely on wells using fuel pumps, while "60m liters of raw and partially treated sewage are being pumped straight into the sea every day," according to the Guardian newspaper.

Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, said: "There are 1.4 million people in Gaza, including the old, the young and the sick, who are already suffering from the impact of prolonged closure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:12 AM

Fact is, there are 'facts' on BOTH sides, which are equally horrific to all of those involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:19 AM

Desmond Tutu on 'Apartheid in the Holy Land'

'Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice.

We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about

My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions?

My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say:

"I am not pro- this people or that.

I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti- injustice, anti-oppression"

But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic , as if the Palestinians were not semitic'

From an address given at a conference on 'Ending the Occupation' held in Boston, Massachusetts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:31 AM

"the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured. "

The Israelis used to let ambulances through- until the Palestinians used several of them to bring in explosives and suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians.



And why is it that the Palestinians don't try to go out the Egyptian border to Gaza, to seek medical help?

ANd why is it that the Palestinians can find ways to keep bringing in rockets to attack Israel with, but cannot bring in food, fuel, or water? Do you really think that Israel is blocking fuel and LETTING the rockets and explosives into Gaza???


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:38 AM

Many Palestinian patients in the Gaza Strip have been unable to access health care and advanced medical treatment since 9 June 2007, when the Rafah crossing to Egypt was closed.

The medical infrastructure in Gaza is not able to provide certain services to its residents, including many types of surgery, and the Palestinian ministry of health refers patients to hospitals in countries such as Egypt and Israel.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), in 2003 some 7,844 cases were referred abroad, of which 62.5 percent were sent to Egypt for treatment via Rafah. Now, this option no longer exists.

"The WHO is concerned about access for patients who need to travel for treatment," said Mahmoud Daher from the WHO in Gaza.

WHO estimates that between 300-400 patients a month need to travel through Rafah for medical care.


While, food aid continues to arrive in Gaza, residents still face hardships.

The UN's World Food Program (WFP) said that although the situation had improved, daily basic consumption needs have not been met.

"The WFP remains extremely concerned about the stock of basic commodities in Gaza, and we continue to closely monitor the situation," said Kirstie Campbell, a spokeswoman for the agency.

Also, as Palestinians in Gaza remain unable to export their goods due to the border closures, people's purchasing power has diminished. Over 85 percent of the population lives below a poverty line set at US$2.41 a day.

This affects their ability to buy basic supplies such as drinking water, fuel and soap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:40 AM

"Many Palestinian patients in the Gaza Strip have been unable to access health care and advanced medical treatment since 9 June 2007, when the Rafah crossing to Egypt was closed"


Who closed it, and why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:45 AM

Feb 2, 2008 12:22 | Updated Feb 3, 2008 14:33
Egypt closes Rafah border
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH, YAAKOV KATZ, AP AND JPOST.COM STAFF

Egyptian troops closed the last breach in Egypt's frontier with the Gaza Strip on Sunday morning, witnesses and Hamas security officials said, bringing to an end a week and a half of free movement for Gazans.

The troops were allowing Gazans and Egyptians who remained on the wrong side of the border to cross back, the witnesses and officials said, but had stopped allowing any new cross-border movement.

...

The officials said that while Israel was not part of the talks on the closure of the border, the defense establishment was in favor of the Hamas declaration earlier Saturday that Gaza would receive fuel and electricity from Egypt instead of from Israel.

"This would be great," one defense official said. "We have no interest in continuing to supply them with anything and prefer that they get what they need from Egypt."

Egypt's decision to close the border came after government officials in Cairo held separate talks last week with Hamas and Fatah leaders. The talks ended in failure as both Palestinian movements stuck to their original positions, sources close to the two parties said.

Hamas rejected Fatah's demand to redeploy forces loyal to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas at the Rafah border crossing in accordance with a US-brokered agreement that was reached in 2005.

Hamas also rejected the return of European monitors to the terminal, insisting that the border should be controlled only by Palestinians and Egyptians. However, Muhammad Naser, a member of the Hamas delegation to the Cairo talks, said his movement would agree to the presence of international monitors at the border on condition that they live in the Gaza Strip or Egypt. He noted that the European Union monitors who were stationed at the border crossing until Hamas took over the Strip in June had lived in Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201867278614&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:47 AM

So, when do we start to blame Israel for the mess after Katrina?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:03 AM

"Israel placed an economic blockade on Gaza in June 2007"

You seem to have neglected a small detail there Emma, like WHY they dd this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:10 AM

Abu El gheit Egyptian Minister of Foreign Affairs has described what happened on the border line with Gaza after floods of Gazans flew into the Egyptian territories, following knocking down of the fence-off iron wall as directly attributed to the closure of the Gaza Strip over the previous seven months, in which the Gaza's residents have suffered lack of essential supplies.

Prior to the Hamas takeover of Gaza in June 2007, when Hamas-linked forces routed Abbas-loyal security services, the Rafah crossing used to be run by the Abbas's elite forces 'presidential guards' and the Egyptian authorities, with help of about 70 European observers.

On June 17, Israel imposed a strict closure on the Gaza Strip, as the European observers quit the Rafah crossing terminal, leaving a vacuum.
Since then, the 1.5-million residents of the coastal region have been suffering from a lack of essential supplies.

Israeli media sources reported that Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, rejected the idea that the crossing be operated, while Hamas is holding sway in Gaza.

'In mid January 2008, Israel declared a total closure of Gaza's crossings and prevented entry of fuel supplies, medicine and food items, forcing the Gaza's sole power plant to shut down.'

International Middle East Media Center a collaboration between Palestinian and International journalists to provide independent media coverage of Israel-Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:21 AM

Since Hamas wrested control of Gaza from Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in June 2007 Israel has reduced the flow of goods into Gaza to a bare minimum and stopped goods from leaving.

Gaza's residents depend entirely on Israel for their exports and imports. Israel controls all the crossing points between Gaza and Israel and has a veto on the operation of the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt.

It is also a fact that Gazan militants are exacerbating the problem by firing rockets at the crossing terminals which halts the little movement of goods that is taking place.

However, a report by report by Gisha, an Israeli human rights organisation, concludes that the increase in poverty and dependency will only inevitably lead to a further radicalisation of Gaza's population

Sari Bashi, director of Gisha, said the impoverishment of Gaza was strengthening extremists at the expense of moderates. "Israel is attempting to achieve political objectives by exerting pressure on 1.4 million women, men and children, whose suffering is supposed to bring about the change it wants - toppling Hamas control in Gaza," she said.

"In reality, a policy of collective punishment is being imposed upon 1.4 million people, in violation of international humanitarian law and contradictory to Israel's interest. Destroying Gaza's economy only exacerbates dependence on extreme elements."

'In a further blow to the Gazan economy Unrwa and the UN Development Programme will announce today the suspension of all construction projects because Israel will not allow the import of cement. The projects are worth about $80m (£40m) and employ hundreds of people. The works include the construction of homes, health centres and sewage works..' The Guardian July 2007


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:23 AM

"It is also a fact that Gazan militants are exacerbating the problem by firing rockets at the crossing terminals which halts the little movement of goods that is taking place."


Gee!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:36 AM

The much delayed UN human rights council investigation into the shelling by the Israeli military of a Palestinian house which killed 18 members of a single family in Beit Hanoun is to start soon according to todays newspapers ; the Israeli government hascomplained that the council is politicised in its criticism of Israel.

Of course there are indiscriminate acts of violence on both sides!
That's why a lasting peace is imperative

Gee!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:02 AM

"Of course there are indiscriminate acts of violence on both sides!
That's why a lasting peace is imperative"

That is progress. May we hear about the indiscriminate acts perpetrated by Hezbollah?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:07 AM

http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/UNAmbulance.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:21 AM

Another part to the picture.

Israel/Lebanon: Hizbullah's attacks on northern Israel


Date Published: 14 September 2006

Categories: Middle East And North Africa, Middle East And North Africa

During the recent 34-day war between Hizbullah and Israel both sides committed serious violations of international humanitarian law. Amnesty International calls for a comprehensive, independent and impartial inquiry to be conducted by the UN into violations of international humanitarian law by both sides in the conflict. The inquiry should examine in particular the impact of this conflict on the civilian population, and should be undertaken with a view to holding individuals responsible for crimes under international law and ensuring that full reparation is provided to the victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:37 PM

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, Lebanon became home to more than 110,000 Palestinian refugees from their homes in present day Israel
By 1975, they numbered more than 300,000, effectively creating an unofficial state-within-a-state in South Lebanon

'Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation.
Inspired by the success of the Iranian Revolution, the party also dreamt of transforming Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. Although this idea was abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament.'

From the BBC News site a few days ago

Six countries officially list Hezbollah or its security arm as a terrorist organization: the United States, the United Kingdom, Israel, Canada, the Netherlands, and Australia, though its designation as such is not unanimous.


However my contributions to this discussion have not been about the Lebanese situation or Hezbollah but rather about the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts.

In the January 25 2006 democratic elections in Gaza Hamas won a landslide victory.

Although in the media Hamas tends to be identified with its military arm, Izzeddin al-Qassam, which is well known for its suicide attacks against Israeli targets, the organization's popularity in the Occupied Territories actually stems from its being seen as the voice of Palestinian dignity and the symbol of the defence of Palestinian rights at a time of unprecedented hardship, humiliation, and despair.

Most importantly, perhaps, Hamas acquired much of its political credit from its charity and social service networks. It built kindergartens and schools (that offer free meals for children), education centres for women, and youth and sports clubs. Its medical clinics provide subsidized treatment to the sick and the organization extends financial and technical assistance to those whose homes had been demolished as well as to refugees living in sub-standard conditions

In other words, Hamas was elected not only because it is considered an alternative to the corrupt Palestinian Authority, but also because Israel created the conditions that made it an indispensable social movement.

The claim that Hamasís popularity results from its social welfare network conceals the fact that Israel has produced a situation where there is desperate need for charity institutions. Accordingly, Israeli efforts to undermine the Palestinian Authority alongside its success in destroying the infrastructure of existence in the Occupied Territories has not only made Palestinian life miserable, but has empowered its most lethal adversary, the Hamas.

Starving Gaza while the Ramallah-based West Bank authority receives financial and political backing from Israel and its allies in the west has failed to shift Palestinian opinion in favour of President Mahmud Abbas and his prime minister, Salam Fayyad.

So, rather than heed the advice of the experts and fulfil the wish of his own public,(a poll published in the Israeli daily Ha'aretz in March this year suggested that 64% of Israelis favoured a negotiated truce with Hamas) Olmert has decided to go to war with the Gaza Strip


In February Isreali deputy defence minister Matan Vilna has threatened Gaza with "they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah'* because we will use all our might to defend ourselves"

*the word "shoah" is rarely used in Israel beyond discussions of the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews

Remove the causes of violent protest and it may be possible to remove violent protest too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:58 PM

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel became home to more than 520,000 Arab Jews who became refugees from their homes.


"the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts"


Agreed- BUT you fail to show why Hamas, who has chosen to

1. engage in war against Israel
2. Choses to obtain weapons rather than food and medicine
3. Depend on Israel , while it has a border with Egypt, for supplies.
4. attack the very border crossings and flow of supplies that the population needs.

is not responsible for those conditions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:12 PM

Part of the problem is that the Palestinians have been used as a pawn by the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and assorted posters here. They are people, and constant bitching about Israel--while the Israeli government deserves some of it--does nothing to help. NONE of the Arab neighbours has got off its arse to help at all, either. And PLEASE, don't some vacuous idiot post that they send in food or medicine. They also send in guns and suicide bombers, just to keep things roiling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:32 PM

In order to know Israel's plan for Gaza, one has only to look at how the Zionist leadership has viewed the issue of Israel's borders and Arab expulsion, and to look at how the Israeli government has conducted itself in regard to Gaza, and the results of this conduct.

Supposing, for example, we were obliged to clear a country of wild beasts, we would not set about the task in the fashion of Europeans of the fifth century. We would not take spear and lance and go out singly in pursuit of bears; we would organise a large and active hunting party, drive the animals together, and throw a melinite bomb into their midst

--Theodore Hertzl, The Jewish State

(The area of the Jewish State extends) "From the Brook of Egypt (the Nile) to the Euphrates."

--Theodore Hertzl, Complete Diaries, Vol II p 711

"The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon."

Rabbi Fischmann, (member, Jewish Agency for Palestine) testimony before UN, 7/9/1947


Plan Dalet:

http://imeu.net/news/article008084.shtml

"I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it."

--David Ben-Gurion

This is the kind of thing that is beign done to Palestinians to make them leave occupied Palestine. It's in the West Bank, not Gaza, but it is one aspect of the plan for the ultimate removal of all Palestinians from occupied Palestine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djBPRcpBOv0&feature=related

Israel supported settlements in Gaza up until a couple of years ago. Settlements are a means of taking land from the local population. Since the settlements were removed, Israel has instituted policies that make it impossible to live in Gaza. With these policies, Gaza is slowly emptied of its Palestinians. This policy is independent of any actions taken by the Palestinians in Gaza. Even during the year long unilateral cease fire that Hamas conducted, Israel's policy towards Gaza did not change. Israel's actions in Gaza do not protect it from anything, and they are not for the purpose of protecting Israel from attack. They only serve to make it impossible for Gazans to remain in Gaza. Israel has no intention of allowing Palestinians to remain in Gaza.

This is one of the documents that outline Israel's long term plans for the Middle East. This document is supported by other documents from other sources, such as the diary of Moshe Sharrett, and the position paper, A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm from a US/Israeli think tank.

http://crashrecovery.org/fischer/article0005345.html

A Clean Break:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:38 PM

CarolC

Perhaps you might address my wuestion:

"the appalling conditions behind the Apartheid Wall in Gaza which remain undisputed facts"


Hamas, the government of Gaza, has chosen to

1. engage in war against Israel
2. obtain weapons rather than food and medicine
3. Depend on Israel , while it has a border with Egypt, for supplies.
4. attack the very border crossings and flow of supplies that the population needs.

Why is it not responsible for those conditions?


One has only to look at how the Palestinian leadership has viewed the issue of Israel's borders and Jewish expulsion, and to look at how the Palestinian government has conducted itself in regard to Gaza, and the results of this conduct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:42 PM

I am not permitted to respond directly to any posters. I will post information when I get it if I think it's pertinent to the discussion in this thread. But if I respond directly to any posters, I will be barred from posting in the Mudcat. If anyone expects a response from me and doesn't get one, this is why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:46 PM

To b.b.

The scope of Israel's ongoing control over major aspects of life in Gaza imposes on it responsibility for the safety and welfare of the residents there, in accordance with the laws of occupation specified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions. Regardless of the questions of the legal status of the Gaza Strip, international humanitarian law and international human rights law require Israel to protect civilians in time of armed conflict, safeguard wounded and sick persons, prevent deterioration in the humanitarian situation, and enable the shipment of necessary medicines and provision of an adequate standard of heal

Source: Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
Date: 15 May 2008


Although Israel withdrew its settlers from Gaza three years ago, it maintains control of the sea, the airspace and all the crossings for people and goods with Israel AND with Egypt.
Under an agreement arranged by the US in late 2005, Israel is committed to opening the crossings to allow trade in and out of Gaza. However, since Hamas democratically consolidated its control of Gaza Israel has said the crossings must remain closed for security reasons.

The crossings are seen as hated symbols of Israeli authority and are frequent targets.

John Ging, Gaza director of the U.N. organization in charge of Palestinian refugees, said he hoped the recent attack, which ripped an 90-yard hole in the wall killing the truck driver would not hurt efforts to ease the blockade of Gaza, which he said has forced 1.1 million of Gaza's 1.4 million people to rely on daily food handouts from the U.N. just to survive.



In reply to Peace…

The breaching of the Apartheid Wall by a suicide bomber is said to bear the hallmarks of Islamic Jihad, one of two groups claiming joint responsibility for the bombing at the Erez crossing,
Abu Ahmad, a spokesman for Islamic Jihad said the attack was meant to "send a message" to Israel that if it didn't accept a truce, "Gaza is not going to be a place where you will enjoy stability."

Hamas has tried to distance itself from these remarks — aware that too close an association is not likely to help the Palestinian cause and that global jihadists have a stake in undermining any cease-fire deal with Israel.

Weapons are believed to be brought into Gaza through smuggling tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border.

I'm not being 'pro' anyone here - just anti injustice!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:50 PM

Carol, I just sent you a pm. You and I get into nastier fights than any other people on Mudcat. AND, you and I both know it. However, I am NOT happy with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:54 PM

Gotta ask everyone--either faction, middle-of-the roaders and the one or two completely reasonable people like me: NO one directs any antagonism at/toward Carol until such time as she has the right of reply. That sound OK by y'all? If your answer is no, then message me so I can send a rude reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:58 PM

Carol and I have had 'fights' too but I'm with Peace here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:13 PM

I've been TRYING to follow all this (it ain't easy) but I'm with Peace here too! OK, WHO has imposed this on Carol? It is NOT fair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:51 PM

"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom (in Palestine); and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination."

--Zionist writer AhadHa'am


"There can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased."

--Dr. Eder (member of the Zionist commission)


"Politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside"

--David Ben-Gurion


"After we become a strong force, as a resultof the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine."

--David Ben-Gurion


"The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. Thesignature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever."


--Menachem Begin


Discussing 1948:

"In Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive…Arabs began to flee in terror…Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter"

--Menahem Begin


"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution."

--Henry Cattan, (Palestine, The Arabs and Israel)


"It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe"

--Joseph Weitz, director, Jewish National Land Fund 12/19/1940


"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

--Erskine Childers, British researcher


On May 12, 1949, Israel signed a joint protocol in which it agreed to repatriate Arab refugees.

"My main purpose was to begin to undermine the protocol of 12 May, which we had signed only under duress of our struggle for admission to the U.N. Refusal to sign would...have immediately been reported to the Secretary-General and the various governments."

--Walter Eytan, head of israeli delegation to the UN


Preamble to the UN resolution admitting Israel to the United Nations includes this passage...

"Recalling its resolution of 29 November 1947 (on partition) and 11 December 1948 (on reparation and compensation), and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions, the General Assembly...decides to admit Israel into membership in the United Nations."


"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

--Menahem Begin


"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it."

--Ytzhak Rabin


"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them."

--David Ben-Gurion, 1936


It was not legal to settle in the Israeli/Syrian DMZ. The Arab Syrian farmers had been removed from the DMZ by the UN so that the DMZ would be a neutral zone.

"We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was"

--Moshe Dayan New York Times, May 11, 1997


"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state."

--Israeli professor, Israel Shahak


"(Israel) must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space."

--Moshe Dayan


Jews for Justice...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/OriginoftheArab-IsraeliConflict.pdf


Theodor Meron, the Israeli Foreign Ministry's legal adviser at the time of the 1967 war told the government of Israel that it would be illegal to build Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories, and he still holds that opinion today...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/secret-memo-shows-israel-knew-six-day-war-was-illegal-450410.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:32 PM

Hezbollah was formed in response to Israeli invasion and bombing of southern Lebanon...

The 1978 Operation Litani provided a clear lesson in the rules of unintended consequences. It was a swift success militarily; Israeli forces pushed across the border and moved about 20 miles north to the Litani River without serious opposition from primarily ragtag Palestinian defenders. They weren't native to the area or fully familiar with it -- they'd moved to it in the early 1970s to escape a crackdown in Jordan.

Under U.S. and other international pressure, the Israeli forces soon withdrew. But the Israeli defense minister at the time, Ezer Weizman, who later became president, ordered relentless bombing of the Lebanese border hills to drive out the civilian population. U.S. officials complained of civilian casualties, but the attacks continued.

The idea, Israeli officials explained, was to create a free-fire zone where it could be assumed that anybody moving around was a Palestinian guerrilla and a fair target for Israeli warplanes or artillery fire. The result over the next year, however, was a long list of civilian deaths -- farmers carrying tobacco crops to market, families picnicking on jagged hillsides and villagers caught in their homes when stray bombs landed.

Eventually, increasing numbers gave up and fled to Beirut. These families, most of them Shiite Muslims, took up residence in what was then undeveloped land between southern Beirut and the international airport -- and now is the teeming Shiite suburb known as the Dahiya.

Its exploding young population, sons of those chased from southern homes, became the base of a new radical organization born several years later. Inspired by the 1979 Iranian revolution, it eventually took the name Hezbollah, or Party of God.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101653.html?sub=AR


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:25 AM

The Israeli bombing attack on the Palestinian village of Samua in the West Bank (just prior to the 1967 war) was an attack on civilians. The UN observer in the video I posted a link to said that he and the other UN observers had been patrolling that area for a year and there were no weapons and no terrorists in that village for Israel to have been targeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:40 AM

Also, the UN observer in the video I posted said that the armored Israeli tractors in the DMZ were "in breach of the truce".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:37 AM

I can't see Olmert lasting much longer as Israeli leader.This arch Zionist is turning out to be just another corrupt crook fascinted by shiny pens and bags of unsourced money.How can people claima ny form of divine intervention in the ownership of the Holy Land?
Albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:53 AM

While we're talking about corruption in the Israeli government, may I humbly request the whereabouts of $300,000,000 last seen with Arafat? Remember, streets may seem to be one way, but they can be driven on in either direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 09:55 AM

"The scope of Israel's ongoing control over major aspects of life in Gaza imposes on it responsibility for the safety and welfare of the residents there, in accordance with the laws of occupation specified in the Hague and Geneva Conventions."

But Israel withdrew from occupying Gaza. They are not occupiers of that territory- Hamas is. Now they are at war with militants in order to defend themselves and their own citizens inside Israel. What about the welfare of the Israeli citizens?


"How can people claima ny form of divine intervention in the ownership of the Holy Land?"

Like I wrote previously Albert, the Jewish religion is centered on the divine and the Holy Land, as is the Muslim religion which has Jerusalem as one it's holiest places, amongst Mecca etc. You may not like that, but many millions of people believe this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:33 PM

AN ABOMINATION!
Now ,now Arnie.....lets not get weasel worded about what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza.

1 It has demolished hundreds if not thousands of houses in Rafah and Khan Yunis both parts of Gaza.

2 It controls all entry and exit points in Gaza and has turned the city into what Israeli historian Ilan Pappe calls a" mega prison" for over a million people.

3 It has sent bulldozers into Gaza to uproot orchards and fields and destroy roads.

4 It has destroyed Gaza's only power station.

5 It has launched many air and land and sea attacks on Gaza killing hundreds [including whole family groups ] and destroying apartment blocks,houses,offices and other buildings.

6 It has allowed over a hundred ill Gazan citizens to die by refusing to allow them out of Gaza.
7
It has shelled picnicers on the beach.

8 It has cut food ,fuel and water into Gaza which is a form of collective punishment and a crime against International Law.

8 It has waged war on the children of Gaza ..starving them, blowing them up in their homes and on the beach and on the streets.

9 It has allowed a tide of sewage to flow through Gaza having destroyed the basic health infrastructure of the city.This is a form of biological warfare against civilians and children.

As Archbishop Tutu ,that splendid humanitarian has said, the behaviour of Israel towards Gaza has been an "abomination".How right he is!
albert


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:44 PM

Halt the rocket attacks and there would be no need for the 'incursions'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,david
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:47 PM

PALESTINE LIVES!
A major open air exhibition and festival of Palestinian art,music and poetry will take place at Albert Square,Manchester on saturday afternoon,the 6th June and all are welcome to find out more about Palestinian life and culture.
Speakers will include Palestinians living in Britain and from Gaza together with speakers from the Palestine Solidarity Campaign.All welcome.Starts at one oclock.
david


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:18 PM

Everything Israel is doing in and to Gaza is collective punishment, which is a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:54 PM

Equally, everything Hezbollah is doing to Israel is a war crime. If neither side gives or bends, it will be status quo for lots longer. Takes two to tango.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:31 PM

When war crimes are committed, the people who are committing them are the ones who are supposed to be held responsible (in this case, that would be the government of Israel and Hamas), not the civilian population. I would support both the government of Israel and Hamas being taken before war crimes tribunals. I wonder if there are any people who are arguing on behalf of Israel who would say the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:32 PM

"Everything Israel is doing in and to Gaza is collective punishment".

Gazans did vote for Hamas who then later took over complete power in a total coup. Certain other armed militants fire rockets into Israel hoping to hit civilian targets almost on a daily basis are regarded as perfectly legal and acceptable in their new regime. Unfortunately they are all reeling in the consequences of all of this. Only Hamas now holds the power to move forwards in Gaza towards peace and deal somehow with Israel's real concerns to normalize relations, and if they do not use that power positively in that respect, it appears that the average lives of Palestinian Gazans will continue to suffer economically and otherwise, and it's a terribly dangerous and tragic situation for them. Recognizing the right of Israel's existence itself is THE major stumbling block - without at least that tell me why Israel has any incentive in which to deal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"I wonder if there are any people who are arguing on behalf of Israel who would say the same."

You got my vote on that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:35 PM

It would be good to think that the violence from both sides could stop if men of good will could come to the fore.....but with Zionism a racist, violent and expansionary creed it ain't gonna happen.

Israel has been invading ,threatening and humiliating its neighbours for so long I doubt that things can change in the forseeable future.

It has also stained its reputation by its savage attacks on the Palestinian people whether they are in Gaza,the illegally occupied West Bank or in refugee camps.
This week it has emerged that gangs of Israeli youngsters have been assaulting Palestinian teenagers and taxi drivers in Jerusalem in the most random of ways and these attacks have been encouraged by senior figures from their religious community [see Haaretz for the horrible details ].

And to top it all off the leader of Israel stands accused of being a petty corrupt crook [ he is already a war criminal for the attack on the civilian population of Lebanon ].
Hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM

"but with Zionism a racist, violent and expansionary creed it ain't gonna happen."

That is crap and you are just shit stirring. Bugger off, "Guest, Hugo".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:40 PM

Israel's blocking of all fuel supplies to Gaza was condemned as COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT* earlier this year as Amnesty International warned of an emerging public health emergency in the territory.

Amnesty International Middle East and North Africa programme director Malcolm Smart said ....

"The rocket attacks should cease, and immediately, but the entire population of Gaza should not be put at risk to bring this about."

"More than 40 seriously ill patients have died since the Israeli authorities closed Gaza's borders, so denying them access to hospital treatment abroad, but now the entire Gaza population is being put at risk as electricity and fuel supplies run out.

"This action appears calculated to make an already dire humanitarian situation worse, one in which the most vulnerable - the sick, the elderly, women and children - will bear the brunt, not the men of violence who carry out attacks against Israel.

'Even crucial aid is not allowed to reach those that need it most in Gaza. These measures must be stopped and the passage of aid, fuel and electricity and other basic necessities must be allowed to resume immediately."


*'Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behaviour of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements.' Wikipedia


While Israel is reluctant to admit the effects of its blockade, it makes no bones about what the siege is intended to achieve: it is designed to pressure Hamas into putting a stop to the rocket attacks being launched against Israel from within Palestinian territory.

Israel has a right to attempt to stop the attacks on its civilian population, but not by any means.

International law specifically forbids collective punishment of occupied populations. The Geneva Conventions stipulate that occupying powers have an obligation to supply utilities such as water and power to occupied populations.

Israel has attempted to get around this by arguing that it is no longer bound by the law governing the administration of occupied territories because it withdrew its troops from Gaza in 2005.
But that is thoroughly unconvincing.

Israel still controls Gaza's borders, airspace and territorial waters. It may have begun referring to the Strip as a "hostile entity", but this is plainly an area still under Israeli control.


'Israel is justified in taking the rocket attacks seriously. But collective punishment of 1.5 million Gazans is no way to deal with the threat.
All this blockage will do is drive more Gazans into the arms of militants and entrench a hatred of Israel among them. Rather than making Israel safer, it will merely expose her to greater danger.'
The Independent January 2008


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:41 PM

May I humbly suggest that "Guest,Hugo" be ignored completely? That way he'll get bored and fu#k off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:45 PM

Holding civilian populations responsible for what their governments do is collective punishment, which is a war crime.


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