Best Folk Song writer ever

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jay777
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

Cor blimey! That's a difficult one- there are/ were so many! I've restricted myself to those I've seen, who are still alive and performing, and came up with the international list of: Harvey Andrews, Christy Moore, and Tom Paxton.

They all cover a wide range of subjects, from serious social and political issues, to lighthearted/ funny songs, and have all stood the test of time.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:19 PM

What a muddle!

Should one by cruel? Should one be didactic? Should one shut up?

Carol-

It's Stan ROGERS, not Stan Rodgers.

There are NO folk song singers who are alive. We call the "live ones" singer-songwriters.

But I'm not feelin' very well this evening, so maybe tomorrow I'll be a folk song writer, although not the best one by far. If I were illiterate I evidently would not be a contender, and it's probably (with the help of Mudcat spell-check) self-evident that I am literate.

There are some good names mentioned above but I'm not sure that even if they have died they should be considered "Folk Song writers." And I'm not sure who would be the judges. Wouldn't they have to be dead too?

Charley Noble, the wine was great!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Bee
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:00 PM

Joni Mitchell, anyone? Randy Newman? Some of theirs surely are or will be folk.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:10 PM

I have not, for many years now, worried myself too much regarding the "authenticity" or "legitimacy" of those pieces popularly known as folk songs. I find that, like art or wine, each of us is moved by, enjoys or otherwise embraces a certain body of music which we choose to perform or hear others perform. I guess the term "folk genre" might suffice for much of the music I love.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: oldhippie
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:01 PM

Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Kate Wolf. Dylan just has the gift, many of Phil's songs are as applicable today as when they were written, and Kate for sheer beauty in lyrics.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:56 PM

olddude, it's certainly an interesting thread, though it might have benefited from a title bringing out the subjective nature of the term 'best'.

Having said that, I'll contribute my own subjective view. I can go along with many of those already mentioned, but I think Brian McNeill deserves to be named for turning out songs of a consistently high quality.

Also, hardly any women songwriters have been mentioned. If not 'the best', Judy Small must be rated as another writer of very good songs. Karine Polwart writes (among other things) a very particular kind of modern ballads. And has Malvina Reynolds been mentioned? I honestly can't remember.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

Including Bill "Smokey" Robinson among "folk-song writers" is a bit of a stretch. I absolutely love and admire Smokey and his work, but his (private) knowledge of folksongs does not turn his compositions into "folk music" under any plausible definition.

Of course, for many of us, any song written by a known contemporary artist is, ispo facto, not a "folk song." But most of us should be able to agree that some songwriters alive today have enough folk-music background for their work to be categorized as "folk," or at least, "folk-like."

One contemporary American writer who was once deeply involved in the folk idiom, and who deserves mention as a unique songwriting talent, is Lucinda Williams. She's not especially prolific, and is such an insane perfectionist that her album releases are few and far between, but whenever she does manage to put something out, there are plenty of articles praising her as the greatest of them all. Maybe, maybe not, but certainly as worthy of a mention here as anyone else listed so far.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

In my opinion, it would not be Dylan. Many of his songs are sophomoric and generalized. Some of his love songs are nice, though. I don't like cults that are built up around artists.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM

Mick Ryan deserves a mention

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

Richard Shindell must be up there.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Silas
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

Richard Thompson? Bill Caddick?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 11:15 AM

There are many good folk song writers and some are also good singers. One of my favorites is Eric Bogle, already mentioned by others. Some of his songs have been sung and or recorded by so many people they have become if anything too popular, No mans land (Green fields of France or Willy McBride). Others like The band played waltzing matilda, leaving of Nancy and now I'm easy have such meaningful lyrics as to be amongst the best ever written. I have heard it said he has written in excess of 3,000 songs, although many are concerned with his home since 1969 Australia, I believe the Adelaide area, where he still appears as well as on his tours.
His web page www.ericbogle.net contains much more information.
I have never seen him live although I know a man who has and live is in his opinion exceptional. The CD i would recommend anyone purchasing if only one is required is a compilation "At this stage", look at the web page for other alternatives.
Hope many Mudcatters agree with me.
Dennis

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Sue Allan
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:48 AM

Quite. And it sometimes seems we have to guard against the same sort of thing happening with 'folk', and be aware of potential hi-jacking by ultra right wing groups for their own ends.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: the button
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:10 PM

Herder also added "Volk" to the German political lexicon. Which didn't end well, to say the least. ;-)

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Sue Allan
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM

Just a note following from Jim's post of 27 May:
Thom did coin the word 'folklore', but in this he was just following the German example. Philosopher and writer Johann Gottfried Herder actually coined the word 'folksong' in 1773, albeit in German as 'Volkslied'in an essay on 'Ossian and folksong'. Herder was one of many taken in by James Macpherson's publication of the alleged manuscripts of ancient Scots bard, Ossian- proclaimed as the Celtic Homer –in 1760. The poems turned out to be entirely of Macpherson's own making (although some were re-makings of old ballads). Nevertheless the fictional Ossian was so much part of the Romantic zeitgeist and ideas of the noble savage that he captured the imagination of poets, artists and musicians … Herder for one, who did actually go on to publish a book of folksongs he collected.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

100,there isnt one.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: pitheris
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM

I'll throw Bill Robinson into the mix.
Smokey Robinson is one of the most prolific songwriters of the 20th century. I met him at a party once in the mid 1970s. Very talented musician. He's also a walking encyclopedia of folk songs.
Some of his songs may pass the test of time.

-Bob

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:59 PM

A difficult choice but I think Harvey Andrews

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM

By the way, Mick... I knew you were going to say that!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:33 AM

Errm Mick, maybe they are having a joke? Perhaps even being... "ironic".

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: mattkeen
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:22 AM

Wo betide us MickWoods for having a discussion or expressing an opinion about something that can't be measured

Bloody hell this is supposed to be a bit of fun.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

Wade Hemsworth, whose work has often been recorded and listed as Anon.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Mick Woods
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM

Trevek "Errrm, Mick... I think everyone knows that really"

Are you some sort of telepath?

Read the whole thread.

If everybody else knows, as you claim that you think .. why have at least 6 people posted on this thread that they think that Trad or Anon are the best or most prolific songwriters and even the most prolific.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:13 AM

I have to say Jon Heslop, not just because he brings me cups of tea and looks after my house but for songs like 'Old Soldiers', 'Cheap Boats', Lifeboat prayer' and, of course 'Last Fisherman'.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:42 AM

Sometimes I get envious that so many of you know songs and writers that I don't know and in some cases have never heard of. I don't have enough time left to catch up.

But I definitely concur with Tommy Sands and John Prine and Utah Phillips and Bob Dylan and I would add Shel Silverstein and Jesse Winchester (love his stuff)and so many more.

Kendall, Gordon Bok is coming to Juneau in August and John Prine is booked for some time in September. I won't be missing their shows, for sure.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Arne
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:46 PM

A timely question.

If one of the marks of a great songwriter is the number of their songs that others have chosen to record -- the measure of their accaim by their fellow artists -- you have to give a big nod to the recently departed Bruce "U. Utah" Phillips. I did a tally once, and he was right up there with Pete Seeger and Ewan McColl, with over 20 songs (IIRC) that I knew of (and could remember) that others have recorded.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:21 AM

PS - Ron Baxter has long been a renowned writer of lyrics in the traditional idiom and over the years his lyrics have been set & recorded by all manner of artists of the calibre of Alan Bell, Pint and Dale, Scolds Bridle and Ross Campbell to name but a few. His trick is to write the words to traditional melodies, but when Ron gives you a song (a real honour in these parts!) he doesn't disclose what melody it was he had in mind, leaving it up to the singer to either work it out for themselves - or else come up with a new one...

Subject: Lyr Add: LOVE AND DEATH (Ron Baxter)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:17 AM

And another - Ron Baxter. At least one of his songs is in the DigiTrad (Paddy Doyle) and some others on Permathread: Merchant Navy Songs.

Not all of his songs are about the sea though. One of my favourites is Love and Death, written, I think, with the tune of Searching for Lambs in mind.

Now love and death in a tavern met, and loudly they called for wine;
and as they drank they each let fall their quivers to the ground.
Then in their cups fell to argument - which one the mightiest be?
Death claimed that crown, "For all bow down, aye, all must come with me."

But Love replied, "That is not so - that diadem is mine;
though from this life you do take all through that portal you will find,
that love lasts through all eternity - true love it does not fade;
though split in twain it still remains and lives beyond the grave."

"Away, away you moonstruck loon! For when I to all appear,
love is lost with their last breath, there remains but grief and tears!"
But love, oh she smiled and shook her head, "Though your power I don't deny,
For 'tis man's fate that them you'll take - true love it never dies."

And the wine it flowed 'til drunkenly, they rose for the night had passed;
And each from the floor their quivers took and gathered in their shafts.
But each some of the other's took, so now 'tis understood,
The reason why oh young men die, and old men fall in love.

My setting of this is currently playing on my Myspace page.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:11 AM

40 oatcake years ago the songs of Dylan and Paxton resonated with me - and they still do.
For quality and quantity these two top the list in my view.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:08 AM

Errrm, Mick... I think everyone knows that really. I don't think many people think Trad's surname was Itional or that Anon's was Ymous.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mick Woods
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:45 AM

I can't see how you can include Anon or trad, as these are not songwriters but attributes applied to certain songs where the original writer is unknown and, in any case one writer didn't write all of these!

I don't like using "Best" as it is only an opinion and can't be measured. You could however ask about most prolific or successful in the folk music genre (if there is such a thing) I would think about that the songs that I hear again and again at folk clubs not including traditional and the first three most prolific that spring to mind are Bob Dylan, Eric Bogle and Ewan McColl

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:21 AM

Has anyone mentioned Graeme Miles yet? His songs have a great sense of commonality about them, largely via the wonderful singing of Teesider Robin Dale who has introduced many of them, unaccompanied, into a singaround setting where they become as natural as Thousands or More. I was a session in Lancashire recently & a chap sang El Dorado and it felt like coming home.

Sea Coal is my favourite though - I sing it myself because it brings me back to the old sea-coaling days up in Northumberland & contains the immortal line and if we must go hungry we needn't go cold, which you either get or you don't.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:17 AM

Ever = Eternity??

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:08 AM

a lot of the above...and Keith Marsden

geoff t

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: The Doctor
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:01 AM

Kendall, the man from Cornwall is Mike O'Connor, and both songs are on 'Oceans in the Sky', by M W-R, along with another of his, 'The Last Song' and a lot of other newly-composed 'folksongs'.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: old salty
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:25 AM

olddude, oh yes,john prine i forgot too! Did you get to hear the pete morton number?
                                    salty X

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:43 PM

John Prine - amazing is the word that is that comes to mind for me. Don't know how I could have forgotten about him ...Thank you, time to re-discover the music again

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:55 PM

I agree with the earlier post about "folk" being a process.

I imagine many of the tunes we now refer to as "folk" would not be classed so at the time, even if the term had existed.

If "folk" is supposed to be anon then we might ask whether Burns was writing in "folk-style" or was he simply doing what others had done for years before, putting his own words to old tunes?

Just because we know he wrote these versions, does it make it less "folk"? Indeed, my copies of several Scottish songbooks list a number of songs as "trad", when they are noted Burns songs.

Elias Lonnrot, the writer of the Kalevala, was criticised for changing his collected material (although he was open about what he had changed and what the original text was). However, as he had travelled and collected the songs from rune-singers, and he had learned many of them himself, he considered himself a singer in the same tradition and vein as those he collected from, indeed as good as some of them. His changes were simply those of a rune-singer making the material his own.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:44 PM

It depends on the song. Some of the best have written some of the worst in addition to the best. It's a question that can't be answered.

Frank

Subject: RE: 'Best' Folk Song writers ever
From: peregrina
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:48 PM

Another angle on 'best' would be to ask: whose songs are now widely sung and thought to be anon./trad. even though the attribution is still known?
In that category, and for political folk songs, how about: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night (by Alfred Hayes, but I didn't know that) and Ah Cud Hew, also Pound a Week Rise (by Ed Pickford). --all have a kind of spare inevitability and remarkable visual vividness.

Then there's another 'best' category--assimilating and blending into the tradition, and adding to it, both by writing entirely new songs and by recycling old words and tunes.
There: AP Carter, Woody Guthrie and Dylan--all steeped in trad.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: radriano
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:39 PM

Aw, for Pete's sake, not another "best of" thread!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:26 PM

Mr 'Happy' said, "How can anyone know what the best ever anything is?"

Well, it is fun to speculate isn't it? The operative word being fun:-)

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: frogprince
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:33 PM

The answer to that is so simple, Mr. Happy! Whatever is my very favoritest, that's the best ever. : )

Even my "short list" of the best keeps getting longer and longer. Has anyone mentioned John Prine yet?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:31 AM

How can anyone know what the best ever anything is?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: mattkeen
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:44 AM

Of course, Johnnie Cash and Shane MacGowan

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:18 AM

I don't know about the best EVER, but Brits need to thank the Yank whose songs help to sustain the folk song revival and give us some songs,which had choruses and were good to play.
Thankyou Tom Paxton.
Also thanks to Olddude for giving Mr Graeme Miles the mention, which, he so richly deserves.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:17 AM

I never hear Pete Morton's "six billion eccentrics" Thank you I am on it for sure, have to hear that one ASAP

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: old salty
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:52 AM

Just been listening to Pete Morton's "six billion eccentrics" He's got to be up with the best . X

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:49 PM

Woody Guthrie has to rate pretty high. Bob Dylan certainly thought so.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Effsee
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:57 PM

...and Harvey Andrews!