the choices of chords in folk music

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 May 08 - 11:12 AM

I had diatonic autoharps in mind (as I said, mine is tuned in two sharps, for the commonest keys in Scottish music).

The kind of arrangement I was thinking of: seven bars, with each bar suppressing two pitch classes a third apart: c#e, f#a, bd, eg, ac#, df#. You can then get all the basic triads by holding two bars down. Marking the pitch classes that *do* sound in upper case and the muted ones in lower, we get:

  ACE / bdfg = bg + df : A
  DFA / bceg = bg + ce : D
  GBD / acef = af + ce : G
  FAC / bdeg = bd + eg : F#m
  BDF / aceg = ac + eg : Bm
  EGB / acdf = ac + df : Em
  CEG / abdf = af + bd : C#dim
  

And we can also get sevenths:

  CEGB / adf = df + af : C#half-dim??
  DFAC / beg = bg + bd : Dmaj7
  GBDF / ace = ac + ce : Gmaj7
  FACE / bdg = bd + bg : F#min7
  BDFA / ceg = ce + eg : Bmin7
  EGBD / acf = ac + af : Emin7
  ACEG / bdf = bd + df : Adom7
  

So effectively we get 14 "logical" bars from 7 physical ones (and a whole lot of weird or useless combinations as well). Anybody got a more efficient design along the same lines?

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:04 PM

Dick, I didn't want to get involved in trying to explain added note chords, like C6, which is basically a C major chord with an A added—but not really a different chord. Or get involved in different inversions. Playing a C chord, composed of C, E, and G (and various doublings of those three notes) with an E in the bass, a C in the middle, and a G on top doesn't make it a different chord. It's still a C chord, but in first inversion. No matter how you slice it, there are still only six basic major or minor triads (chords) in any key.

[Before someone leaps in to "correct" me, let me forestall that by pointing out that the diminished triad built on the seventh position of the major scale is rarely used as anything more than a passing chord, and is generally subsumed in the dominant seventh, which, in addition to its own root, contains the diminished triad. Or get involved in "modal" chords (a misnomer), i.e., omitting one of the notes of a triad, which is perfectly okay, but as far as nomenclature is concerned, it's no longer a "chord."]

I didn't want to create more confusion in a subject that a lot of people find plenty confusing already. The subject itself is not really that difficult, but attempts to explain it can get pretty messy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:23 PM

yes Don, your right,two note groups are Dyads,
Sorry, I just got over enthusiastic.

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:11 PM

... Early blues has a really solid theoretical structure, and the formal principles that it is built on are very similar to the ones that are used in classical music of a certain period.

Some of the people that learned blues by copying from records never grasped the underlying musical structure, but it is there...

Hi Ted, long time no talk, but I think you will have to amplify this particular assertion for the benefit of those luckless individuals like myself who grew up thousands of miles from the Mississippi delta, but who came to love the blues through listening to recordings ...

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: reggie miles
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:50 PM

Ted, I have no doubt that there was a lot of really solid theoretical structure in the blues from that period. Those influences are easy to hear. I am aware that folks were imitating more sophisticated music of the day in some respects. What fascinates me more than the educated stuff is the stuff that seems to come from no such background. It has a much more primitive feel and an undereducated or uneducated sound but even so it has a power and spirit that shakes me to my core. I've heard it on some scratchy old 78s that I've found. Somehow, I don't think that those folks were concerned about theoretical structures and formal principles.

Foolestroupe, you can call it ignorance and fumbling in the dark if you like, but I consider it unlocking the door to their souls and laying bare their spirits.

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:53 AM

Actually, I just made that up--blues is just some crazy random music with no structure at all;-)

Really, the repeating "Boogie Woogie" bass line is the equivalent to the classical basso ostinato, which repeats in three sets of four measure phrases, in a manner similar to the chaconne or the passagalia. Each four measure phrase breaks down into a pair of two measure phrases where the second pair either repeats of first phrase, or is variation, played as a call and response, or, if you like, antiphonally.

That's purely for discussion, though-- the important thing is that the blues structure allows a player to take a simple one or two measure phrase and a variation or alternating phrase, by applying the formula create a full composition--

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:11 AM

Reggie-It is pretty clear that there was a solid oral pedagogy for teaching the blues--I am inclined to think that it wasn't borrowed from any "educated" sources, in fact, it moved the other way. The "system" is a way of using repeating rhythmic/musical ideas that was brought by the African laborers who were forced into bondage in the slave trade.

Anyway, the same underlying system can be used to play the rawest, dirtiest, blues or the smoothest cool jazz--evidence being that players like Rahsaan Roland Kirk could mix the extremes--

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:42 AM

"there are still only six basic major or minor triads (chords) in any key"

Don is correct - but the various inversions - and the tricks of separating some of the pitches by an octave or more, or doubling up some of them over several octaves does have various interesting resultant 'sounds' or 'timbre's... those who have not studied the theory may often believe that these are somnehow 'new chords' though...


"you can call it ignorance and fumbling in the dark if you like, but I consider it unlocking the door to their souls and laying bare their spirits."

Reggie, no insult intended.

It is possible thru a process of fumbling and stumbling to end up somewhere worthwhile, even if by accident.

Sadly it is also possible to 'know all the theory' and still get nowhere useful or interesting - isn't it Don? :-)

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:51 AM

Make a mistake once, it's a mistake. Make the same mistake twice, it's jazz! Good night all.

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:22 AM

Murray--I need a little time to rethink it so that I can explain it in writing, but I had a couple examples that illustrated my point--it took about ten or fifteen minutes in my guitar classes, though, and that's more explanation than anyone cares to read in a discussion thread-

Subject: RE: the choices of chords in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:57 AM

the most wonderful thing is when you discover an interesting chord progression by accident.
my accompaniment to Bushes and Briars,is a case in point,I did not sit down,and write the music out,I was just messing with shapes on the guitar,I had no idea what the chords were until I sat down afterwards and worked them out[so that I had a record].
I would recommend all guitarists,make a diagram of their fingerboard,then learn how chords are made up,then at a glance its possible to see where all your alternatives are.Dick Miles