BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:48 PM

As demonstarted in a newly-released Harvard study, and contrary to what certain incessant Mudcat posters would have us beleive, there is much common ground among Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews.

For example, "77 percent of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world."

Harvard University report on Israeli Arabs & Jews

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM

If that's the case, one has to wonder why there is so much ongoing conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM

All the Arabs NOT is Israel want to go there, too?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:04 PM

77% of the population against which apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide are being practiced would rather live in the country that is perpetrating these atrocities.

My goodness, what CAN they be thinking?

Maybe some of those "incessant posters" should clue them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:07 PM

Well, Riginslinger, if you've ever been to Israel, you'd know that the Jews of Israel and the Arabs of Israel get along remarkably well.

This study pertains to the Jews and Arabs within Israel proper; it's not talking about the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, claims all of Israel proper as part of its Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:22 PM

The link that I provided in the opening post to this thread is for a brief summary of the Harvard study.

Here is a link for the complete study.

The complete Hardvard study (PDF file)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:33 PM

Thank you for the PDF link, GoE. I'll check it out after lunch. Before you posted it, I emailed the author of the Study for amplifications. If I get a response, I'll share it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Suffet at work
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:52 PM

The percentage is not surprising. Most black South Africans who lived under apartheid still wanted to remain in South Africa. It was and is their home land. That, however, does not mean they accepted the injustices of the system. Instead, they organized and fought to change the system, and in the end they were successful. I presume that most Israeli Arabs would prefer to change the system that among other things prevents them from owning homes on the 90% of the land controlled by the Jewish National Fund Land Trust, or which bars them from certain sensitive occupations, or which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces, or which consigns them and their children to separate and unequal schools. But that's just a guess. What do I know?

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:01 PM

" which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces,"


Really?? My understanding of Israeli law is that they are not REQUIRED to serve in the military, but may if they wish. A slight difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:25 PM

Suffet,

I'm confused by elements of your statement: "I presume that most Israeli Arabs would prefer to change the system that among other things prevents them from owning homes on the 90% of the land controlled by the Jewish National Fund Land Trust, or which bars them from certain sensitive occupations, or which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces, or which consigns them and their children to separate and unequal schools."

Are you saying that 90% of the land in Israel is controlled by the Jewish National Fund?

In actual fact, it is 14%, not 90%.

If it were true that Arabs are barred from owning homes on JNF land, that actually constitutes less than 2% of Israel by my calculations.

The thing is, though, that the JNF land is almost all forest and parklands. Jews don't live on it either.

Did you know that JNF is actually a world leader in researching enviornmental sustainability?

Your statement that Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli armed forces is not true. They are permitted to serve but are not required to. Some volunteer, most do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:39 PM

They may not have that opportunity for long. They are being pressured to leave by exclusionary practices on the part of the Israeli government. These practices include refusing building permits, refusing essential utilities and services, and other discriminatory practices.

I suspect that what the Israeli Arabs are saying is that they would prefer to remain in their place of origin, just as the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are saying (they would rather live there, despite the military occupation, than live anywhere else), and not that they would prefer to live under the kind of government that they live under in Israel rather than the kinds of government that might be found anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:00 PM

"I suspect that what the Israeli Arabs are saying is"

I suspect that you're commenting without having read the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:25 PM

Having read the contents of the report, I don't find anything in it that contradicts what I said in my previous post, however the Arab response to the question about greater integration of Arab citizens tends to support what I have said. They desire more integration. The Jewish response is noticeably less supportive of greater integration.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:32 PM

Of course Israeli Arabs would wish to continue live in what was Palestine. It's their home. The same goes for others who have been exiled from what is now Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:42 PM

And the Israelis would like to continue living in their home, too. Lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:53 PM

Greetings:

The title to approximately 90% of non-governmental land in Israel is held by KKL (the JNF Land Trust) and is then leased long term to homeownners, housing developments, cooperatives, kibbutzim, village corporations, etc. The 14% that Ghost of Electricity cites is the portion directly administered by KKL.

Israeli Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, even as volunteers. Other non-Jews -- Druze, Armenians, Russian Christians, etc. -- are required to serve in the IDF, even if they don't want to.

By the way, I speak as a person who has close relatives living in Israel, mostly in the artists' village of Ein Hod, built on land confiscated from the local Arab population in 1948. At least they don't bullshit themselves about what happened. And yes, they built their house on land which the village leases from KKL.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:07 AM

Israeli Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, even as volunteers. (Suffet)

From among non-Bedouin Arab citizens, the number of volunteers for military service—some Christian Arabs and even a few Muslim Arabs—is minute, and the government makes no special effort to increase it. Six Israeli Arabs have received orders of distinction as a part of their military service; of them the most famous is a Bedouin officer, Lieutenant Colonel Abd el-Amin Hajer (also known as Amos Yarkoni), who received the Order of Distinction. Recently, a Bedouin officer was promoted to the rank of Colonel.

from IDF

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:21 AM

Actually, why should America care what goes on in Israel? Wouldn't most Americans be better off just to leave it alone, and let the Arabs and Israelis go off and to their own thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:34 AM

I have read the pdf version of the study as lined here by Ghost. I guess I'm not as cynical as some of the response I've sen here; I find some real hope that a reasonable solution can be had long term, at least from responses of the general public. I was especially encouraged that respondents indicated they were, generally, more well disposed to the other side, than one might have thought given the rhetoric of leaders on both sides

Another interesting bit of information: of the Jewish respondents, over 80% were secular or practising, of non-Orthodox affiliation; of the Arabs, over 80% were Moslem.

One item I found problematic is that the Jewish interviews were by telephone (thereby skewing the sample to those who had telephones), while the Arab interviews were mostly in-person. One can speculate on the reasons for that.

Again, Ghost, thank you for posting this study,
John

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Riginslinger, why stop with Israel? There are many isolationist Americans who would say the same about the Balkans, Darfur, and other hot spots in the world. Let everyone fend for themselves. Disband the United Nations. Hell, let's just return to 1450.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:02 PM

On another thread about "Palestinian 'Facts'" I was checking some details about the Golan Heights and a possible Israeli/Syrian peace accord when I came across this:

"The Golan Heights were under military administration between 1967 and 1981. In that year, Israel passed the Golan Heights Law, placing the Golan Heights under civilian Israeli law, administration, and jurisdiction. Most non-Jewish residents of the Golan Heights, mainly Druze, refused to surrender Syrian citizenship, though Israeli citizenship was available to them.

In the 1999 elections, 773 residents of Ghajar and fewer than 700 residents of the 4 Druze villages were eligible voters. Syria continues to offer them benefits such as free university tuition.

In 2005 the Golan Heights had a population of approximately 38,900, including approximately 19,300 Druze, 16,500 Jews, and 2,100 Muslims. Jewish villages, including moshavim and kibbutzim, are consolidated municipally under the Golan Regional Council, and are inhabited by Israeli citizens. The Golan Muslims reside in the Israel-Lebanon border-straddling village of Ghajar. They accepted Israeli citizenship in 1981. The Druze reside in the villages of Ein Qinya, Buq'ata, Majdal Shams, and Mas'ada. Most are involved in farm work.

Both personal and business relations exist between the Druze and their Jewish neighbors; there is little tension between the two groups. As a humanitarian gesture, since 2005, Israel allows Druze farmers to export some 11,000 tons of apples to Syria each year, the first kind of trade ever made between Syria and Israel. Since 1988, Israel has allowed Druze clerics to make annual religious pilgrimages to Syria.

The Druze
Unlike Druze in Israel proper, fewer than 30% of the Druze of the Golan Heights are Israeli citizens; the remainder hold Syrian citizenship. The latter are permanent residents of Israel, and they hold a laissez-passer. The pro-Israeli Druze are ostracized by the pro-Syrian Druze. Reluctance to accept citizenship also reflects fear of ill treatment or displacement by Syrian authorities should the Golan Heights eventually be returned to Syria. According to "The Independent", most Druze in the Golan Heights live relatively comfortable lives in a freer society than they would have in Syria under the present regime. According to Egypt's Daily Star, their standard of living vastly surpasses that of their counterparts on the Syrian side of the border. Hence their fear of a return to Syria, though most of them identify themselves as Syrian. Ties to Syria are on the wane, and many have come to appreciate aspects of Israel's liberal-democratic society, although few risk saying so publicly for fear of Syrian retribution."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:05 PM

Start with Israel. That's the one that seems to cause the most heartburn. Then, if that works out, go on from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:46 PM

skewing the sample to those who had telephones Having a phone - landline or mobile - is so widespread in Israel, especially among Jewish Israelis, that it seems very unlikely that any significant skewing could arise. (So long as the phone survey wasn't carried out on the sabbath.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:49 PM

The Israeli blockade of Gaza has been described by Archbishop Tutu as an "abomination".
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:26 PM

That may be Hugo, but that's his opinion, and not necessarily a fact. At any rate, that is not the topic of this thread...you might want to post your comment on "Palestinan 'facts'" which is currently in its 490th post

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Thank you for your advice John although I could not help but notice that in your previous posting you managed to mention the Balkans ,Dafur and the United Nations so a mention of Archbishop Tutu is hardly amiss.Also the description by Zionists of Israeli Arabs really will not do.Surely they call themselves Palestinian?
Hugo
Its as if the conflict is not only geographical or military but also amazingly linguistic!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:14 PM

Hugo--The study, as I understand what I read, was as between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis (citizens of Israel). Whether or not those Arabs responding to the survey really consider themselves to be Palestinian cannot be known from the study as published.

For historical reference, until the establishment of Israel, a Jew from that area would have probably self-described them self as a Palestinian Jew.

Please forgive me if I don't understand your last sentence above.

BTW, I mentioned Tutu, the Balkans etc in response to comments by you and Riginslinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:01 PM

It's as if the conflict is not only geographical or military but also amazingly linguistic!!

Please forgive me if I don't understand your last sentence above.

I'd take the meaning of that sentence of Hugo as pretty self evident. There are significant disagreements about what words to use to refer to people and places, reflecting differences about other issues, such as borders and bloodshed.

As is the case in many disputes where the way such labels are applied tend to indicate the side to which disputants are more aligned with. (For example in relation to Northern Ireland or pre-apartheid South Africa.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:08 PM

WORDS ARE ALSO WEAPONS
My understanding of the situation in Israel is that the Zionists in the main cannot bear to use the term "Palestinian" and instead refer to them as "Arabs."
Calling them arabs implies that the exiled refugees could feel at home anywhere in the arab world say from Morrocco to Iraq whereas of course identifying the people as "Palestinian" implies that they have legitimate rights to belong to their homeland.
Its a real battle of linguistics which I think the Palestinian people have won.If only the main struggle were as straightforward.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:58 PM

"There are many isolationist Americans . . ."

Non-interventionism is not isolationism. If anything, the United State's interventionist policies have left it more isolated than ever. Intervening on one side or another in someone else's civil war is pointless and destructive. The Balkans are a case in point: the Serbs were ethnically cleansing the Kosovars, the 'west' intervenes and the Kosovars ethnically cleanse the Serbs. This is progress? I would have imposed an arms blockade on the entire region and them let fight it out with knives if that's what they wanted to do. Not that anyone asked me.

The case of Isreal: with the most powerful military in the region (and nuclear arms) they are quite capable of taking care of themselves. By uncritically supporting Israel against the Arab nations, the US stirs up animosity against itself where none need exist. And many of those so-called 'friends' of Isreal like Rev. Hagee aren't really friends; their pre-millenial fantasies require most of the Jews to be boiled alive at Armageddon, or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

Michael Morris, I actually was taking you seriously until you started your fantasy about Rev. Hagee. You obviously know precious little about him. He does not believe that most (or any) Jews will be 'boiled alive at Armageddon, or something like that.' That is the fantasy of those folks who are afraid of religious Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

"...the US stirs up animosity against itself where none need exist."


                      I agree with that and everything else you say here, MM.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:09 PM

"McCain told CNN's Brian Todd that he rejected Hagee's endorsement after Todd brought to his attention Hagee's comments that Adolf Hitler had been fulfilling God's will by hastening the desire of Jews to return to Israel in accordance with biblical prophecy.

"God says in Jeremiah 16: 'Behold, I will bring them the Jewish people again unto their land that I gave to their fathers. ... Behold, I will send for many fishers, and after will I send for many hunters. And they the hunters shall hunt them.' That would be the Jews. ... Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter," Hagee said, according to a transcript of his sermon."

I think the term 'boiled' was facetious. But not really inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:13 PM

So sorry---Guest at 6:05 is JotSC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:30 PM

John Hagee is the founder of Christians United For Israel. The Executive Director is David Brog, a Jew (in 2007 he professed to be an normative Jew, as opposed to a 'Messianic Jew' or a 'Jews for Jesus', when he spoke at the Reform Synagogue to which I belong.) Hagee's group consider themselves to be Christian Zionists which does not seek Jewish participation in Armageddon. The description of CZ, taken from the Jewish Virtual Library will show that the term 'boiled in oil...' whether Michael Morris believes it or is being facetious is innaccurate.

               "Theology of Christian Zionism"
The actual theology of Christian Zionism, also known as Biblical Zionism, supports the right of the Jewish people to return to their homeland on scriptural grounds. The biblical foundation for Christian Zionism is found in God's Covenant with Abraham. It was in this covenant that God chose Abraham to birth a nation through which He could redeem the world, and to do this He bequeathed them a land on which to exist as this chosen nation.
Christian Zionism is confirmed throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. The major and minor prophets consistently confirmed this national calling on Israel, promised her future restoration to the land after a period of exile, and spoke of her spiritual renewal and redemption bringing light to the world.
Christian Zionism differs with Replacement Theology which teaches that the special relationship that Israel had with her God in terms of her national destiny and her national homeland has been lost because of her rejection of Jesus as Messiah, and therefore the Church has become the new Israel. The Church has then inherited all the blessings promised to Israel but the judgments and curses still conveniently remain over the Jewish people.
Instead, Christian Zionism teaches from the scriptures that God's covenant with Abraham is still valid today. There remains a national destiny over the Jewish people and her national homeland is her everlasting possession in fulfillment of God's plans and purposes for her. The New Testament scriptures not only affirm the Abrahamic covenant, but they confirm the historical mission of Israel and that Israel's gifts and calling are irrevocable.
Thus, Christian Zionism is not based on prophecy or end-time events. Most Christian Zionists would agree, however, that Israel's reemergence on the world's scene, in fulfillment of God's promises to her, indicate that other biblically-predicted events will follow.
(Taken from Jewish Virtual Library)

Now you may not believe in CV--I'm not sure I do, fully--but that is how they view their mission. And absent deeds to the contrary, one should take them at their word,

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:38 PM

So how does this figure in with Hagee, and Hitler's mission to chase the Jews off to Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:43 PM

You tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:58 PM

I'm a complete neophyte on all of this. I can't tell anybody anything. I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: meself
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:03 PM

"Now you may not believe in CV[sic]--I'm not sure I do, fully"

I should certainly hope not - you seem like an intelligent fellow. The [hilarious, pathetic, superstitious, dangerous, lunatic - choose you descriptor] argument that the existence of Israel as a political entity should be supported because "God promised" can only discredit RATIONAL arguments in support of Israel. It would be best not to mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:10 PM

Rig-- as I understand about the Hitler comment, Hagee made it back in the '90s (1990s that is). Christians United was formed in 2006. I don't know what was in Hagee's mind way back then--I had never even heard of him--so your guess is as good as mine. As we grow, our outlook and understanding often changes. Has that happened with him? I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:28 PM

Thanks for damning me with faint praise, meself. You might find his religious belief irrational using any or all of your pejorative descriptors, but that doesn't make you right or him wrong, or vice versa.

Frankly, I often worry when Christians involve their Christianity into Israeli politics. Many of my friends believe that Evangelicals love Jews (and Israel) to its death to bring the Second Coming, as Michael Morris seems to think. And I, too, believe that many Evangelicals do. CV says that is not their position. Until I'm shown contrary evidence, I believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:39 PM

Frankly, I'm puzzled as to why Christians would be motivated to involve themsleves in Israeli politics.

                  But maybe it would help if we identified CV.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:50 PM

Ah, you caught me!...in a typo. I meant to type "CU". You can visit the secret site at cufi.org. Enjoy.

BTW, the reason for the typo is that I live in an area often referred to as CV, for Crescenta Valley.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: meself
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:56 PM

John - If I'd looked at the name at the top of your post, I would have damned you with more fulsome praise, since I've always found your contributions to be thoughtful, and to express a reasonableness and a moderation that are often in short supply around here.

And I wouldn't have mocked your religious beliefs if I'd really been able to comprehend that they actually ARE your beliefs - as you indicate they are, to some extent. To be honest, I just couldn't quite believe it; otherwise, I would have expressed myself more diplomatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:46 PM

OK, I was wrong about Arab volunteers in the IDF. A small number have apparently served.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:44 AM

I've got Christian Zionists in my family. The ones in my family believe all of the stuff in the copy/pasted description of Christian Zionism, and they also believe that most of the Jews will be killed in armageddon, and the rest will be converted to Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:50 AM

The thing that needs to be understood about Christian Zionism, is that the return of the Jews to Israel is not the desired for outcome. It is part of the preparation for the desired for outcome. The outcome they are awaiting is the second comimg of Christ. The return of the Jews to Israel is one of the events that presage the second coming of Christ according to their beliefs. But they don't get to stay there very long as Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:52 AM

Carol: "The return of the Jews to Israel is one of the events that presage the second coming of Christ according to their beliefs. But they don't get to stay there very long as Jews." Very well put.

Peace: "And the Israelis would like to continue living in their home, too. Lest we forget." Also very well put. But I would add that a substantial minority Israelis have been voting to the contrary with their feet. Otherwise, why would there be substantial communities of Israeli ex-patriates in New York City, Los Angeles, and elsewhere? I call this phenomenon Diaspora II. You can tell folks you read it here on Mudcat!

A personal note: My wife had been a Zionist activist and youth leader. She actually went to Israel during the 1967 war, but returned to the USA the next year to finish nursing school. That gave her a chance to reassess a lot of the assumptions she had made, and so she became an ex-Zionist. Over the years, so have many of her former comrades. Others have remained in Israel, but have their doubts. Her sister, for example, lives in an artists' village in the Carmel Mountains just south of Haifa, and tries to shut the situation out of her thoughts -- except when a missile fired from Gaza comes flying over her house.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:25 AM

CarolC-Then either your relatives are wrong or the Jews are wrong. BTW, I enjoy the irony of be called on cut and paste by the queen of cut and paste.

Suffet(Steve)-Jews live all over the world, just as other religio-ethnic groups, and have since Cyrus of Persia allowed them to return to Judea from Babylonian exile (538 BCE). Even back then a substantial group of Jews, most of whom grew up in exile remained in the Persian Empire. Until 1948 there were sizeable communities of Jews in both Iraq and Iran, now only remnants. The difference in the Diaspora now is that Jews have the choice of living in a Jewish homeland, or living anywhere else. This was not always a choice for them.

May your sister-in-law always remain safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:30 PM

John,

You said "The difference in the Diaspora now is that Jews have the choice of living in a Jewish homeland, or living anywhere else. This was not always a choice for them." While that is true, a surprisingly substantial number who had chosen to live in Eretz Yisroel later changed their mind. Another substantial number who were born and grew up there also chose to leave. Those Israeli ex-patriates, whether sabra (native born) or those who hade made alliyah (immigrants) are whom I mean by Diaspora II.   

You also said, "May your sister-in-law always remain safe," and I thank you. But safety can only come for them (and for my brother-in-law, my nieces, nephews, and cousins) with reconciliation between the Israelis and Palestinians. And that can only come through the recognition of both the justice and injustice on each side.

You are right in saying that, at least for now, "Jews have the choice of living in a Jewish homeland." But that homeland is also the homeland of many Arabs and other non-Jews. Some of those Arabs currently make up about 20% of the population of Israel proper, and many others, a we all know, live in the Palestinian Diaspora. Until there is some just resolution, the will be no prospect of peace.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:36 PM

I think more than a few people see it this way:

Canto 6

Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
"This is my own, my native land!"
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burned,
As home his footsteps he hath turned,
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonoured, and unsung.

Sir Walter Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: robomatic
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:42 PM

Guest, HUGO wrote:
WORDS ARE ALSO WEAPONS
My understanding of the situation in Israel is that the Zionists in the main cannot bear to use the term "Palestinian" and instead refer to them as "Arabs."
Calling them arabs implies that the exiled refugees could feel at home anywhere in the arab world say from Morrocco to Iraq whereas of course identifying the people as "Palestinian" implies that they have legitimate rights to belong to their homeland.
Its a real battle of linguistics which I think the Palestinian people have won.If only the main struggle were as straightforward.
Hugo

As a Jewish Palestinian I resent the linguistic effort to pretend I don't exist or that the Jewish inhabitants of Israel are less 'Palestinian' than their non-Jewish co-inhabitants.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:49 PM

Steve, many Israelis are expats, especially to the US. I venture to say that most are expats for economic opportunity, at least the ones I know. Most of my friends and acquaintances who made aliyah, meant for their time in Israel to be temporary only...a summer, or at most a year.

Many Americans are expats to countries in Europe (my son lives in Amsterdam and likely will stay), Central America, Australia/New Zealand and even Israel. Except for those emigres to Canada in the 60s and 70s, I'm guessing their migration was for life style reasons.

On balance, though, we really have no disagreement, to my mind.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:30 PM

"Her sister, for example, lives in an artists' village in the Carmel Mountains just south of Haifa, and tries to shut the situation out of her thoughts -- except when a missile fired from Gaza comes flying over her house." - Suffet (Steve)

I've just had a look at the map of Israel Steve. The lady could be in no danger from any missile fired from Gaza and she most certainly would ever have experienced a missile from Gaza "flying over her house" located where you describe it.

"the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip have been building their own homemade rockets since about 2000. These rockets, developed by Nidal Fat'hi Rabah Farahat and Adnan al-Ghoul, are known as the Qassam (or Kassam) and were first used by Hamas terrorists in 2001. Hamas began constructing these weapons because of the strong security barriers surrounding the Gaza Strip that prevented direct raids on Israeli towns. The Qassam rockets are designed to fly over the barrier to strike population centers within Israel. The Qassam rockets are not nearly as advanced as those employed by Hezbollah, however, and both their range and explosive payload are quite limited.

Three different versions of the rocket have been seen so far. The Qassam 1 has a diameter of 60 mm, carries a warhead weighing 1 lb (0.5 kg), and has a maximum range of only 2 miles (3 km). Early attacks using these rockets failed because they landed inside the Gaza Strip itself rather than upon their intended targets. The first Qassam strike to hit an Israeli town occurred on 5 March 2002 when two of the weapons hit Sderot just north of the Gaza Strip. This community has taken the brunt of Qassam attacks given its close proximity to the Palestinian town of Beit Hanoun where most Qassam strikes are launched. The first fatalities caused by the rocket also occurred in Sderot on 28 June 2004 when two Israelis were killed.

The danger posed by Qassam attacks began to grow as improved versions were developed. The 150-mm Qassam 2 carries a warhead between 11 and 15 pounds (5 to 7 kg) over a distance of about 5 miles (8 km). The most advanced version seen so far is the Qassam 3 with a 170-mm body containing a 22-lb (10-kg) warhead and traveling as much as 6 miles (10 km). The farthest Israeli town attacked by late 2005 has been Ashkelon about 5 miles (8 km) from its launch point. Attacks using the improved Qassam 3 had succeeded in reaching the central part of Ashkelon by July 2006. The Qassam attacks have generally done very little damage and killed or injured just a handful of people since most of the rockets fall harmlessly in open areas."

Haifa is approximately 100 miles North of the top end of the Gaza Strip.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:56 PM

I have no problem with anyone posting something that has been copy/pasted. I am not permitted to address anyone directly, nor am I permitted to refer directly to any posts, so I have to find other, more oblique ways to help people understand what I am referring to in my posts. I know this will cause quite a lot of confusion for other people, but there is nothing I can do about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:58 PM

I read recently that the number of Jews moving to Germany exceeded the number moving to Israel about a year ago. That seems like a significant development.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:24 PM

Where would they be moving from?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:57 PM

My own opinion about Christian Zionism as well as about the belief that Jews are entitled to any land by virtue of something that is said in holy books is that they are both wrong. My own opinion is that we are all human beings and nobody has any more rights than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:53 PM

Damn! I did it again at 3:48---Sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:58 PM

You didn't put a name or a pseudonym to those posts GUEST - no doubt an oversight.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:12 PM

The Christian Zionists believe that the State of Israel was established in preparation for the second coming of Christ. A large part of the rationale behind Jews claiming rights to the area that is now Israel is a biblical one. It is my opinion that both of these beliefs are wrong.

Armageddon will happen if the Christian Zionists have their way (and they have so far). I know quite a few Christian Zionists who support political candidates who will assist the coming of armageddon with their military adventurism in the Middle East. I find it bizarrely ironic that these two interest groups have allied themselves, because their ultimate goals are totally at cross purposes with each other.

When considering what the Reverend Hagee believes and desires for the Middle East, it is important to understand that the endgame in his scenario involves most of the Jews being killed and the rest being converted to Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:50 PM

"Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies." (Theodor Herzl's Diaries.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:50 PM

But here's the question nobody has addressed so far: if we have Jews moving to Israel, Jews moving to America, and Jews moving to Germany, where are they all coming from?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:56 PM

Brooklyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:05 PM

Greetings:

My sister-in-law and her family live in Ein Hod, just south of Haifa, and quite a few missiles have flown overhead. But perhaps they were fired from Hezbollah in southern Lebanon southward rather than from Gaza. One missile, for example, hit a crowded restaurant along the coast a few kilometers downhill from them and killed quite a few people. That was about two years ago. My point, however, is the same. No one in the region, Jew or Arab, Israeli or Palestinian, is safe until there is some kind of meaningful reconciliation in which all sides recognize the legitimacy, the rightful claims, and the injustices (real or imagined) suffered by the others.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:11 PM

As stated by JotSC, I too trust that your sister stays safe.

The rocket attacks she experiences as you rightly state are from South Lebanon, fired by Hezbollah and supplied courtesy of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:48 PM

Outsiders supplying armaments to that part of the world are indeed a major contributor to the violence. Supplying them to either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 May 08 - 08:18 PM

ringslinger .... Russia.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:03 PM

Thanks, biLL. I would assume the would include ex-Soviet satellite countries as well, is that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:27 AM

"identifying the people as "Palestinian" implies that they have legitimate rights to belong to their homeland"

And THAT Guest Hugo was exactly why Yasser Arafet invented the term.

There is no such race, or nation made up of the "Palestinian" people, all who live in the area are "Palestinian" including the Israelis. "Palestinians" are to Palestine what "Londoners" are to London. Palestine was a name used to describe a geographic area not a country. Between 1918 and 1923 that area encompassed present day Israel, Gaza, West Bank and Jordan. Between 1923 and 1948 Palestine consisted of what is now Israel, Gaza and the West Bank and was the area of the original Mandate of Palestine set aside for the creation of the Jewish National Homeland, under the terms of Article 2 of the Mandate as handed down from The League of Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:53 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how Zionists can so easily dismiss the existence of a people...the Palestinian people....whose land they have stolen by force of arms and through terror and later through the law of the Israeli land.

Its as if by denying them the right to a name [Palestinian ] they forego the right to natural justice and basic Human Rights such as the right to be recognised as a nationality.

Of course this fits in to the falsehood that the Zionists settled in a land which was empty. In fact the Jewish population of Palestine was a small minority until well after the Balfour Declaration in World War One and indeed it wasnt until 700000 Palestinians fled into exile that the Israelis became a majority in the land.

I should say as well that of course prior to the Zionists arriving in Palestine there was a minority population of Palestinian Jews who as I understand lived in peace with their muslim and christian Palestinian neighbours for most of their shared history.Apologies to Robomatic if he felt I slighted his identity in my above posting.

Zionism was and is an essentially European ideology and the pre Zionist Jewish people have often felt discriminated in the Israeli state. And it often seems to me that those bellicose gun totin Zionist paramilitary thugs we see on the West Bank belong more to Brooklyn than they do Bethlehem.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:55 AM

Why would we want them in Brooklyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:57 PM

Because a tree grew there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:43 PM

Article 2 of the Palestine Mandate:

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

Still hasn't happened has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:08 PM

It most certainly did not Kevin, which was why the UN advanced the idea of partition that the Arabs resoundingly rejected. They subsequently fought and lost a war over it, and have been compalining about the result ever since.

Sorry old son, but if you voluntarily abandon negotiation and opt for force of arms, you then must then abide by the result. This MGOH is a fact of life. If for some strange reason you disagree with that - then you surely must believe that there is still hope for the Third Reich - I am sure that they heartily disagreed with the result of the Second World War.

With regard to the Arab - Israeli question. I most certainly don't disagree with the result - they were given a solution, they rejected that solution and resorted to war, they resorted to force of arms and lost - big boys rules - live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:31 PM

Interesting thread, some great points. Teribus, you are both ill-informed and clearly ignorant. You really do write some crap man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:56 PM

Well thank you very much for pointing that out Guest Zach - care to be a little more specific? Or are you just trotting out the trendy party line?

So far on this thread:
- I have accurately pointed out that no rocket fired from Gaza could ever reach anywhere near Haifa. Dispute that all you will Guest Zach but you will be wrong.

- Are you telling me that under the definition of the The League of Nations mandate that the Jews currently residing in Israel are not Palestinians? You will have a bit bit of trouble with that one Guest Zach - best look at a few maps old son.

If you wish to debate specifics Guest Zach, only too pleased to oblige - but somehow I don't think that you will take me up on that - please prove me wrong, I'd look forward to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:23 PM

The "Arabs" did not "attack" the newly formed State of Israel. Prior to Israel declaring its independence, Zionist forces had been engaging in massacres and other kinds of attacks on villages that were in the area that had been allotted to the Palestinians in the partition plan. After Israel declared its independence, the neighboring Arab countries stepped in to try to prevent Israel from taking any more of the land given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. Almost all of the fighting took place in the areas that were allotted to the Palestinians in the partition plan. They were trying to prevent Israel from taking all of the land that was given to the Palestinians in the partition plan, a goal that Israel is very close to accomplishing at this point in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:42 AM

CarolC - Your recollection of the historical events that covered the period from the end of the Second World War up to and including the declaration of the founding of the State of Israel are incorrect, conveniently one sided and biased beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM

Greetings:

CarolC is only partly right. There were acts of violence on all sides, some going back to the early 1920s, but they became particularly numerous during the 1936-1939 period, and then again beginning with the end of World War II. Everyone can point to massacres and acts of terrorism commited by the others, and there is little use in trying to argue who were the aggressor and who were just defending themselves.

Please note that I say "all sides" rather than "both sides," because neither the Palestinian Arabs, nor the Jewish settlement in Palestine, nor the British mandatory authorities acted in a united way. There was serious, and sometimes violent, in-fighting within each group over tactics, strategy, ideology, and ultimate aims. Furthermore, there were serious divisions among the Arab states, and within the world Zionist movement. Nor was the Britsh Foreign Office of one mind.

As I have said before, peace can only come with reconciliation, and that means mutual recognition of one another's justices and injustices. I am very pessimistic that will ever happen. As someone told me the last time I was in Israel, "In the long run, the best we can hope for is our new ruler will be a Mandela, not a Mugabe." The one who said that wasn't joking.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

Suffet: That is the best post yet to this thread--with no offense implied or intended to other posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:12 PM

Teribus I never met a dude so blinkered in my entire life !
You are a crazy guy, this lady above has pulled holes in everything you said. Accept you lost the argument buddy and go pump Limie Propaganda somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

I could agree with you less, Zach, but I don't know how.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

BTW, don't call him a Limie [sic.] because that will piss him off.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM

I cannot resist this even though I was not going to get into this:

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace - PM
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:56 PM

Brooklyn.

Sure---who can afford any of the 5 boros anymore. Smart move!!!

On a more serious note---all things evolve and there is , surely, some fault on the Isaeli side not. But, historically, let us also recall the riots (pogroms if you will ) by the local population prior to the 1940s, let us also recall that HST recognized the State of Israel in 1948 (much against the advice of his anti-semitic state department) and the all hell broke loose when the Arab nations attacked. Let us also recall that Palestinians fled---and, at first, were urged not to by Israel and encouraged by the same Arab nations that now forbid them entry., let us also recall that David Ben Gurion understood the feelings of the Palestinians and said many a time that were he in their place he, too, would feel the right to return, and, finally let us recall that all the wars after that one were begun by the totally unorganized ( or is it disorganized) Arab nations.

Since all things evolve, including the history of the U.S., we have to understand that there are matters that are fixed in stone. We can only go by past history and, hopefully, the good intentions of people. Sadly, governments do not have good intentions. Governments have intentions of control and power. People have good intentions. People who are politicians become, what I believe, purveyors of governmental bad intentions---think Darfur, think Zimbabwe, think Germany (1930s---and prior), think Japan (1930s), and, yes, our own lying leadership---if you can call this administration leadership.

Carol C: I have to partially agree with you. The CHristians you speak of have their own agenda and, frankly, it is bizarre.   Of course, if one believes in this twaddle one can understand from whence they come.

          I am reminded of story a minister with whom I play tennis related--briefly---Gee---the Pope came to the U S and was decked out like he was a birthday party---Jesus wore sandals and rags.

Bill Hahn


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:33 PM

I was referring specifically to the hostilities during the period of 1948/49 in my 31 May 08 - 08:23 PM post. We are told that Israel declared its independence, and then the Arabs attacked. This is not true. Jewish paramilitaries had been committing massacres and ethnic cleansing in Arab villages both in the part of Palestine that was given to the Jews in the partition plan, as well as the part that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan, for months before Israel declared its independence...

Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.

--Henry Cattan, (Palestine, The Arabs and Israel)

After Israel declared its independence, the Arabs decided to step in and try to stop Israel from taking any more of the land that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. But almost all of the fighting took place in the areas that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. This is because the Arabs were not "attacking" Israel. They were defending the areas that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. This is historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:12 PM

OH Great---here we go again---a war for survival becomes a war of expansion as explained by the resident expert historian.
I am out of here

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:39 PM

"After we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine."

--David Ben-Gurion


"It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe"

--Joseph Weitz, director, Jewish National Land Fund 12/19/1940


"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

--Erskine Childers, British researcher


"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them."

--David Ben-Gurion, 1936


"(Israel) must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space."

--Moshe Dayan

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:20 AM

"On November 29 the UN General Assembly voted in favor of ending the mandate and establishing two states on the land. That very same day the Irgun and the Lehi renewed their attacks on British targets. Then next day the local Arabs began attacking the Jewish community, thus beginning the first stage of the Israeli War of Independence. The first attacks on Jews were in Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem, in and around Jaffa, Bat Yam, Holon, and Ha'Tikvah neighborhood in Tel Aviv."

Now what was it CarolC said again?

"The "Arabs" did not "attack" the newly formed State of Israel. Prior to Israel declaring its independence, Zionist forces had been engaging in massacres and other kinds of attacks on villages that were in the area that had been allotted to the Palestinians in the partition plan."

Doesn't quite pan out does it CarolC? Or are you saying that those Arab attacks of November 30th never happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:18 AM

Greetings:

What CarolC was talking about was the coordinated military action of the armed forces of several Arab states. That took place on May 15, 1948. I am not saying that I agree with her view of their aims, but let's not confuse that with the non-military, uncoordinated (or very poorly coordinated) actions of Arab civilians throughout Palestine on November 30, 1947.

Yes, the attacks of November 30 did take place. But they should not be seen in isolation. As I said earlier, violent conflicts on all sides had been going on since the 1920s, reached a peak during 1936-1939, and then resumed again in the immediate post-war period.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:44 AM

"The Arab leadership repeatedly pressed the British to grant them national and political rights like representative government over Jewish national and political rights in the remaining 23% of the mandate of Palestine which the British had set aside for a Jewish homeland."

"The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each side for its own reasons. In response to numerous Arab attacks on Jewish communities, the Haganah, a Jewish paramilitary organization, was formed on June 15, 1920 to defend Jewish residents. Tensions led to widespread violent disturbances on several occasions, notably in 1921, 1929 (primarily violent attacks by Arabs on Jews — see 1929 Hebron massacre) and 1936–1939. Beginning in 1936, several Jewish groups such as Etzel (Irgun) and Lehi (Stern Gang) conducted their own campaigns of violence against British military and Arab targets. This prompted the British government to label them both as terrorist organizations."

"There had already been rioting and attacks on and massacres of Jews in 1921 and 1929. During the 1930s Palestinian Arab popular discontent with Jewish immigration and increasing Arab landlessness grew. In the late 1920s and early 1930s several factions of Palestinian society, especially from the younger generation, became impatient with the internecine divisions and ineffectiveness of the Palestinian elite and engaged in grass-roots anti-British and anti-Zionist activism organized by groups such as the Young Men's Muslim Association. There was also support for the growth in influence of the radical nationalist Independence Party (Hizb al-Istiqlal), which called for a boycott of the British in the manner of the Indian Congress Party. Some even took to the hills to fight the British and the Zionists. Most of these initiatives were contained and defeated by notables in the pay of the Mandatory Administration, particularly the mufti and his cousin Jamal al-Husayni. The younger generation also formed the backbone of the organisation of the six-month general strike of 1936, which marked the start of the great Palestinian Revolt.[55]"

"The Great Arab Revolt (1936–1939)
The death of the Shaykh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British police near Jenin in November 1935 generated widespread outrage and huge crowds accompanied Qassam's body to his grave in Haifa. A few months later, in April 1936, a spontaneous Arab national general strike broke out. This lasted until October 1936. During the summer of that year thousands of Jewish-farmed acres and orchards were destroyed, Jews were attacked and killed and some Jewish communities, such as those in Beisan and Acre, fled to safer areas.[56] After the strike, one of the longest ever anticolonial strikes, the violence abated for about a year while the British sent the Peel Commission to investigate.[57]

In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed a partition between a small Jewish state, whose Arab population had to be transferred, and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan. The proposal was rejected by the Arabs and by the Zionist Congress (by 300 votes to 158) but accepted by the latter as a basis for negotiations between the Executive and the British Government.[58][59]

In the wake of the Peel Commission recommendation an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus, and Hebron. British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police,[60] suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force. The British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons[61]) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Jewish volunteers such as Yigal Alon, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley"[62] by conducting raids on Arab villages. The squads used excessive and indiscriminate force[63] The Jewish militias the Stern Gang and Irgun used violence also against civilians, attacking marketplaces and buses."

"The attacks on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: First, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah ("The Defense"), which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish land purchase and immigration. However, with the advent of World War II, even this reduced immigration quota was not reached. The White Paper policy also radicalized segments of the Jewish population, who after the war would no longer cooperate with the British.

The revolt had a negative effect on Palestinian national leadership, social cohesion and military capabilities and contributed to the outcome of the 1948 War because "when the Palestinians faced their most fateful challenge in 1947–49, they were still suffering from the British repression of 1936–39, and were in effect without a unified leadership. Indeed, it might be argued that they were virtually without any leadership at all".[66]"

"The Holocaust had a major effect on the situation in Palestine. During the war, the British forbade entry into Palestine of European Jews escaping Nazi persecution, placing them in detention camps or deporting them to places such as Mauritius.[69]

Starting in 1939, the Zionists organized an illegal immigration effort, known as Aliya Beth, conducted by "Hamossad Le'aliyah Bet", that rescued tens of thousands of European Jews from the Nazis by shipping them to Palestine in rickety boats. Many of these boats were intercepted. The last immigrant boat to try to enter Palestine during the war was the Struma, torpedoed in the Black Sea by a Soviet submarine in February 1942. The boat sank with the loss of nearly 800 lives. Illegal immigration resumed after WW II.

Eliyahu Hakim and Eliyahu Bet Zuri, members of the Jewish Lehi underground, assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo on 6 November 1944. Moyne was the British Minister of State for the Middle East. The assassination is said by some to have turned British Prime Minister Winston Churchill against the Zionist cause. The ban on illegal immigration continued.

As a result of the assassination of Lord Moyne, the Haganah kidnapped, interrogated, tortured and turned over to the British many members of the Irgun and Lehi. This period is known as the 'Hunting Season'. Irgun ordered its members not to resist or retaliate with violence, so as to prevent a civil war.

Following the war, 250,000 Jewish refugees were stranded in displaced persons (DP) camps in Europe. Despite the pressure of world opinion, in particular the repeated requests of US President Harry S. Truman and the recommendations of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry that 100,000 Jews be immediately granted entry to Palestine, the British maintained the ban on immigration. The Jewish underground forces then united and carried out several terrorist attacks and bombings against the British. In 1946, the Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of the British administration, killing 92 people.

Following the bombing, the British Government began imprisoning illegal Jewish immigrants in Cyprus. Those imprisoned were held without trial and included women and children. Most were holocaust survivors. The negative publicity resulting from the situation in Palestine meant the mandate was widely unpopular in Britain and caused US Congress to delay granting the British vital loans for reconstruction. At the same time, many European Jews were finding their way to the United States. An increasing growing influence in American politics, many Zionist backers won over sympathizers in the American and other Western governments. The Labour party had promised before its election to allow mass Jewish migration into Palestine. Additionally the situation required maintenance of 100,000 British troops in the country. In response to these pressures the British announced their desire to terminate the mandate and withdraw by May 1948."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:45 AM

"The British Peel Commission proposed a Palestine divided between a Jewish and an Arab State, but in time changed their position and sought to limit Jewish immigration from Europe to a minimum. This was seen by Zionists and their sympathisers as betrayal of the terms of the mandate, especially in light of the increasing persecution in Europe and was met with a popular uprising and guerrilla war from Jewish terrorist groups, often viewed as one of several factors that led the British to hand the problem over to the United Nations.

The UN, the successor to the League of Nations, attempted to solve the dispute, creating the UNSCOP (UN Special Committee on Palestine) on May 15, 1947. After spending three months conducting hearings and general survey of the situation in Palestine, UNSCOP officially released its report on August 31. A majority of nations (Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay) recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, with Jerusalem to be placed under international administration. A minority (India, Iran, Yugoslavia) supported the creation of a single federal state containing both Jewish and Arab constituent states. Australia abstained. On November 29, the UN General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favour of the Partition Plan, while making some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal. Both the United States and Soviet Union agreed on the resolution. In addition, pressure was exerted on some small countries by Zionist sympathizers in the United States.[70] The five members of the Arab League who were voting members at the time voted against the Plan, as did the United Kingdom.

The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention 29 November, the date of this session, as the most important date leading to the creation of the Israeli state.

Meeting in Cairo in November and December of 1947, the Arab League then adopted a series of resolutions aimed at a military solution to the conflict. The United Kingdom refused to implement the plan arguing it was not acceptable to both sides. It also refused to share with the UN Palestine Commission the administration of Palestine during the transitional period, and decided to terminate the Mandate on May 15th, 1948.[70][70]

Several Jewish organizations also opposed the proposal. Menachem Begin, Irgun's leader, announced: "The partition of the homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature by institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. The Land of Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever". His views were publicly rejected by the majority of the nascent Jewish state."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:47 AM

"The British mandate over Palestine was due to expire on 15 May 1948, but Jewish Leadership led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared independence on 14 May. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries, but not by the surrounding Arab states. Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded Israel. Four thousand Transjordanian troops, commanded by 38 British officers who had resigned their commissions in the British army only weeks earlier (commanded by General Glubb), invaded the Corpus separatum region encompassing Jerusalem and its environs, as well as areas designated as part of the Arab state by the UN partition plan. They were aided by corps of volunteers from Saudi Arabia, Libya and Yemen.

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, May 14, 1948 stated:

We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

In an official cablegram from the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the UN Secretary-General on 15 May 1948, the Arab states publicly proclaimed their aim of creating a "United State of Palestine" in place of the Jewish and Arab, two-state, UN Plan. They stated the UN plan was invalid, as it was opposed by Palestine's Arab majority, and maintained that the absence of legal authority made it necessary to intervene to protect Arab lives and property.[71] On the date of British withdrawal the Jewish provisional government declared the formation of the State of Israel, and the provisional government said that it would grant full civil rights to all within its borders, whether Arab, Jew, Bedouin or Druze."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:53 AM

NOTE:

"The Arab leadership repeatedly pressed the British to grant them national and political rights like representative government over Jewish national and political rights in the remaining 23% of the mandate of Palestine which the British had set aside for a Jewish homeland."

This is after the British took 77% of the Mandate Palestine area and formed the Moslim ( No Jewish citizenship allowed) MOSLIM Palestinian Homeland, in violation of the terms of the League of Nations Mandate.

So, HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:35 AM

Frankly, I don't care what they do. I'm just sick and tired of paying for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM

As I said, the instances of violence go back to the 1920, reached a peak in the 1936-1939 period, and erupted again with the close of World War II. And as I also said, there were very serious divisions within the Palestinian Arab community, within the Jewish community in Palestine, among the Arab states, among the various Ziuonist organizations, and within the British government.

And now a story...

I once saw this old man in Jerusalem praying at the Western Wall. When I went back twenty-five years later, he was still in that same spot, still praying. So I went up to him and said, "Excuse me, old man, but I believe I saw you here twenty-five years ago. Am I right?"

And he answered, "Yes. I was here twenty-five years ago, and thirty year ago, and thirty-five. In fact, I have been at this same spot praying since June 11, 1967. I was fifty-five years old then, but still an army reservist, and my unit was called up for the Six Day War. On the day we liberated the Old City of Jerusalem, I came to this spot to pray, and I've been here every day since, hot or cold, rain or shine."

"That's amazing," I said. "But do you mind if I ask you one question. Is there something you've been praying for all these years?"

"Something I've been praying for?," he repeated. "Well, that's easy to answer. Yes, there is something I've been praying for, and that's peace. Peace between the Arabs and the Jews. Peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Peace between Israel and its neighbors. Peace among Christian, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, whatever, throught the world."

"Wow! That's incredible," I said. "Can you tell me how you feel after all these years?"

"How I feel?," he said with a slightly bitter smile. "You want to know how I feel? Well, I'll tell you how I feel. I feel like I'm talking to a fucking wall!"


You can decide for yourself the truthfulness of that story.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM

"As I said, the instances of violence go back to the 1920, reached a peak in the 1936-1939 period, and erupted again with the close of World War II. And as I also said, there were very serious divisions within the Palestinian Arab community, within the Jewish community in Palestine, among the Arab states, among the various Ziuonist organizations, and within the British government."

Agreed. All of this is true.

But my question stands:

HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM

"As I said earlier, violent conflicts on all sides had been going on since the 1920s, reached a peak during 1936-1939, and then resumed again in the immediate post-war period." - Steve

In stating the above you are partially correct.

The unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews in 1920 and again in 1921 combined with the manner in which those atrocities were dealt with by the British, did not inspire the Jewish community with any confidence as to the quality of protection they could expect under British administration. That having been said, it must also be clearly stated that there were no Jewish acts of reprisal to the Arab attacks.

The Jewish leadership created the Haganah to protect their farms and Kibbutzim. Had the Arabs not attacked, or had the British dealt with the cause of the trouble, the Haganah would never have existed.

In addition to guarding Jewish communities, the role of the Haganah was to warn the residents of and repel attacks by Palestinian Arabs. In the period between 1920–1929, the Haganah lacked a strong central authority or coordination. Haganah "units" were very localized and poorly armed: they consisted mainly of Jewish farmers who took turns guarding their farms or their kibbutzim.

Once again in 1929 there were further unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs. In terms of scale and seriousness these were much fiercer than the earlier attacks, and caused Haganah's role to changed dramatically. If possible British handling of these riots and their aftermath were even more inept than before and this convinced the Jewish community that the only people that they could rely on for their own defence was themselves. Again please note Steve that none of the Arab attacks of 1929 were responded to by way of reprisal by the Jewish community.

Haganah was expanded, it became a much larger organization encompassing nearly all the youth and adults in the Jewish settlements, as well as thousands of members from the cities. It also acquired foreign arms and began to develop workshops to create hand grenades and simple military equipment, transforming from an untrained militia to a capable underground army.

Within Haganah there was an official policy of havlagah (restraint) that Jewish political leaders imposed on their militia. Fighters had been instructed to only defend communities and not initiate counter attacks against Arab gangs or their communities. But in the aftermath of the 1929 attacks a splinter faction that believed in reprisal attacks came into being in 1931, the name of this organisation was Irgun. Irgun could have viewed as the direct counterpart to the al-Qassam, "Black Hand Group", an anti-zionist and anti-British militant organisation, organized and established in 1930 by Izz ad-Din al-Qassam. He recruited and arranged military training for peasants and by 1935 he had enlisted between 200 and 800 men. The cells were equipped with bombs and firearms, which they used to kill Jews in the area, as well as engaging in a campaign of vandalism of the Jewish-planted trees and British constructed rail-lines. It was the death of Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British that sparked off what became known as the Great Arab Revolt.

At the start of the Great Arab Revolt 1936 -1939, Haganah fielded 10,000 mobilized men along with 40,000 reservists. It participated actively to protect British interests and to quell Arab rebellion using the FOSH, and then HISH units. Although the British administration did not officially recognize the Haganah, the British security forces cooperated with it by forming the Jewish Settlement Police, Jewish Auxiliary Forces and Special Night Squads, which were trained and led by Colonel Orde Wingate, who later during World War II would go on to lead "Chindit 1" and "Chindit 2" operations behind Japanese lines in Burma.

During the first stage of the Revolt, Irgun and the Haganah generally maintained a policy of restraint. From April 1936 until October of that year, 80 Jews were killed, 369 were injured, 19 schools were attacked, nine orphanages and three old-age homes. 380 attacks on trains and buses were carried out, and approximately 4,000 acres of agricultural land were destroyed. These actions were carried out by armed Arab gangs who were joined by Syrian and Iraqi reinforcements.

There was a lull in activity while the Peel Commission investigated the unrest and the British Army began taking more stringent measures to curb the attacks.

All in all Irgun carried out 60 reprisal attacks ("eye-for-an-eye") during the Great Arab Revolt, resulting in the deaths of some 250 Arabs, the Arab attacks over the same period had killed 320 Jews.

During the Second World War, the Jews generally sided with the Allies, although a splinter group from Irgun, LEHI or Stern gang, commenced actions against the British from 1944. The Arabs generally remained neutral or sided with the Axis powers.

The Peel Commission realised that there would never be a single Palestinian State and that a two State solution must be sought. After the end of the Second World War the UN arrived at the same conclusion. The offer was made on 29th November 1947 and rejected by the Arabs who then attacked the Jews on the 30th.

Responsibility for the actual instigation of violence in Palestine from 1st March 1920 (Tel Hai) up to and including the presentation of the UN proposal for a two state solution on 29th November 1947, can be firmly laid at the door of the Palestinian Arabs, not once in that 27 year period was there any instance of civil unrest caused by a Jewish attack on anybody.

Had the Palestinian Arabs accepted what was offered on 29th November 1947 - which was as near as damn it what they are asking for now - then none of the rest of it would ever have happened.

As previously stated 60 years of bloodshed and grief, all for something that was on the table for them to accept in 1937 (Peel Commission) and again in 1947 (UN Partition Plan).

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM

My apologies, let me correct something I stated in my last post:

"not once in that 27 year period was there any instance of civil unrest caused by a Jewish attack on anybody."

Definitely not true as Lehi did attack British military targets both in Palestine and abroad from 1944 to 1947. They did not attack any Arab, Druze, Christian community in that period.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:42 AM

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:30 AM

Contrary to the claim that the Arab League only tried to defend the area of Palestine that would have been the Moslim state had the Arabs accepted the partition:


"Syria had 12,000 soldiers at the beginning of the 1948 War grouped into three infantry brigades and an armoured force of approximately battalion size. The Syrian Air Force had fifty planes, the 10 newest of which were World War II-generation models.

On 14 May Syria invaded Palestine with the 1st Infantry Brigade supported by a battalion of armoured cars, a company of French R 35 and R 37 tanks, an artillery battalion and other units. On 15–16 May they attacked the Israeli village Tsemach, which they captured, following a renewed offensive, on 18 May. The village was abandoned following Syrian forces' defeat at the Deganias a few days later. Subsequently, the Syrians scored a victory at Mishmar HaYarden on 10 June after which they reverted to a defensive posture, conducting only a few minor attacks on small, exposed Israeli settlements.[84]"


They DID attack, but could not hold Israeli territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

"Preparations made by the Arab League

During the last meeting of the Arab League in February 1948, the Arab leaders expressed their convictions in the capacity of the Arab Liberation Army to help the Palestinians and to force the international community to give up on the UN-backed partition plan.[178] The following summit took place in Cairo on 10 April, with the situation having clearly developed with the death of Al-Hussayni and the debacle at Mishmar Ha'emek.

Once again, Ismail Safwat called for the immediate deployment of the Arab state armies at the borders of Palestine, and for the need to go beyond the established policy of participating in little more than small-scale raids towards taking part in large-scale operations. For the first time, the Arab leaders discussed the possibility of intervening in Palestine.[179]

Syria and Lebanon declared themselves ready to intervene immediately, but King Abdullah refused to let the Arab Legion forces intervene immediately in favour of the Palestinians, a move which irritated the Secretary-General of the League, who declared that Abdallah only cedes to the British diktat.

Nonetheless, Abdullah declared himself ready to send the Legion to assist the Palestinian cause after 15 May. In response, Syria insisted that the Egyptian army also take part, and, in spite of the opposition of Egypt's prime minister, King Farkouk responded favourably to the Syrian request, but due to his aim of curbing the Jordanians' hegemonic goals rather than his desire to help the Palestinians.[180]

Later on, following the visit of several Palestinian dignitaries in Amman, and despite the opposition of Syria and the Mufti, Hadj Amin Al-Hussayni, Azzam Pasha accepted Abdullah's proposition and sent Ismail Safwat to Amman to organise a coordination between the Arab Liberation Army and Jordan's Arab Legion. It was decided that command over the operations would be reserved for King Abdullah, and that the Iraqis would deploy a brigade in Transjordan to prepare for intervention on 15 May.[181]

On 26 April, the 'intention to occupy Palestine' was officially announced at the Transjordanian parliament and the Jewish people were 'invited to place themselves beneath King Abdullah's jurisdiction.' The intention to spare their lives was also promised. Yishuv perceived this declaration as being one of war and encourages the Western world to pressure the King, through diplomatic means, to prevent his intervention.[182]

On 30 April, Jordanians, Egyptians and Iraqis disputed the command of Abdullah. Abdullah received the honorary title of Commander-in-Chief, whilst the Iraqi general, Aldine Nur Mahmud, was named Chief of Staff. Despite this show of unity, it was agreed that each army would act independent of each other in the theatre of operations.[183]

On 4 May, the Iraqi task force arrived at Mafraq. It was composed of a regiment of armoured tanks, a regiment of mechanised infantry, and twenty-four artillery weapons, and included 1500 men.[184] The Egyptians formed two brigades, deploying around 700 men into the Sinai.[185] The Syrians could not put together a better force, whereas the Lebanese announced that they could not take part in military operations on 10 May.

It was only two days before, on 8 May, that the British Foreign Office was certain of the Arab invasion. Whereas British analysts considered that all Arab armies, except the Arab Legion, were not prepared for the engagements to come,[186] the Egyptian officers claimed that their advance would be 'a parade with the least risk,' and that their army 'would be in Tel-Aviv after just two weeks.'

The state of preparation of the army was such that they did not even have maps of Palestine.[187] At the time, the final plans of invasion had not even been established yet. British leaders tried in vain to make the Arab leaders reconsider their decision,[188] and Ismail Safwat resigned in indifference, but the Arab states seemed resolute. On 15 May 1948, the Arab League announced officially that it would intervene in Palestine to guarantee the security and right to self-determination of the inhabitants of Palestine in an independent state.[189] Azzam Pasha declared on Cairo radio: 'This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.'[190]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:56 AM

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/britishboycottisraelunionsacademicjournalistsjewishpalestine4848062007.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:41 PM

The narrative that we have been given all this time has been the one that has been created and promoted by one side only, that of the Zionist leadership and the government of Israel. It is not an omission to correct the distortions and inaccuracies in that narrative without also reiterating those parts that are accurate. We already know the narrative from the perspective of the Zionist leadership and the government of Israel. It is time also to know the narrative from the perspective of what was experienced by the Palestinians as well as Israel's neighbors.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out where and in what way the narrative given us so far is wrong. If there is ever to be peace (rather than a desolation people call peace), those aspects of history that have been distorted and falsified need to be corrected.

Take the lie about the Arab countries telling the local non-Jewish Palestinians to leave until they could clear out the Jews. That lie is no less harmful to human beings than the lie of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is also no less hateful and racist. It is important to correct these lies, so that they can no longer be used to continue to promote hatred and discrimination.

The government of Israel uses these lies and distortions to justify its continued acts of aggression and its continued oppression of the Palestinians. The only way to make this stop is to correct this falsified version of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:48 PM

The war had begun before May 15. Israel had already been busy clearing out the civilian populations of most of the Arab cities before May 15.

To wage a war against people but not call it a war until they respond is a lie. It was a war before May 15, Israel was the aggressor in that war, and the Arab armies fought to prevent Israel from taking any more land than it had already taken prior to May 15. Jordan even had an agreement with the Israeli leadership to split the land that had been given to the Palestinians between it and Israel.

Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:22 PM

The "I don't like Israel" crew wear their hatreds with real pride, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

Most unbiased general history I have yet encountered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

The claim that Palestinians left their homes in 1948 under orders from the Arab states has in fact been demonstrated to be false propaganda, notably by Israeli historian Benny Morris (who is most emphatically in no way anti-Zioist) - in his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

In addition, of course, it is a totally irrelevant assertion - even if they had been encouraged to leave the scene of conflict, in the way refugees in all wars do, this would in no way have removed their right to return home afterwards - a legal right of return, which has persistently been blocked by Israel, and which is today portrayed as being an extreme and totally unacceptable demand.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

Ah Carol C---you wrote:

The government of Israel uses these lies and distortions to justify its continued acts of aggression and its continued oppression of the Palestinians. The only way to make this stop is to correct this falsified version of history.

Any you are certainly the unbiased and authorotative figure to promulgate objective truth.


Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

typo__And not any at the start.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

"The war had begun before May 15." - CarolC

No shit Sherlock!!!! Try telling us something that we do not already know.

By the bye CarolC, I loved this piece of emotive drivel:

"Israel had already been busy clearing out the civilian populations of most of the Arab cities before May 15."

Now you being a self-confessed objective seeker of truth CarolC, would all this clearing out of civilian populations, would that have occured before or after the Jews of Hebron had been "ethnically cleansed" on the nights of 23rd, 24th & 25th August 1929, I mean I know that you and some of your "fellow travellers" believe that the Jewish Community in question were only upstart "Johnny-come-lately's", having only lived in the place for more than 800 years. I mean hells teeth any Arab who had had a job in any part of Palestine in the two years before the end of the Mandate must have a "Right-of-Return" irrespective of his actual nationality, or whether he actually ever owned anything in "Palestine". But for some strange reason no "right-of-return" applies to the Jewish citizens of Hebron - Can you explain that to us CarolC. At the same time can you also explain another question studiously ducked in another Israeli/Palestinian Thread. Why is it perfectly acceptable for Syria to claim land taken by force of arms in 1948, but completely unacceptable for Israel to do the same with regard to land taken in 1967?

Even more twaddle from MGOH:

"even if they had been encouraged to leave the scene of conflict, in the way refugees in all wars do, this would in no way have removed their right to return home afterwards - a legal right of return, which has persistently been blocked by Israel, and which is today portrayed as being an extreme and totally unacceptable demand."

Wish to expand on that principle a little Kevin, or does it only apply to Israel and the Arab population who seek her destruction - Think carefully - both Ireland and Scotland could end up really crowded if "Right of Return" is applied throughout the world, plus some really interesting real estate deals would have to be pushed through the books.

Utter crap Kevin, the Arabs are trying to turn back the clock on their consistant failures for 60 years - the fantasy of limited liability wars just does not exist in the real world. They are grasping now at slightly less than was offered them in 1947, while attempting an infiltration in the hope of bringing down the State of Israel.

If you actually believe in "Right of Return" let's here you advocate as vociferously for the Aboriginals in Australia, the Native American Indians, etc, etc. Down through the long winding road that is history according to our 21st Century eyes I am sure that there are many wrongs that require to be put right - all we have to do is pay for them, right my little socialist Kev? Well dig out, I will not put one penny of mine to such retrospective bollocks, and quite rightly I would not for one minute expect the Israeli Government to do the same.

Right of Return and, or compensation to the 820,000 Jews deported from Arab countries? Come on Kev, come on CarolC, lets hear you shouting the odds for that cause. The world, or at least this forum, will be deafened by your silence, because the pair of you, plus quite a few others (Including one-post Guest Mushrooms) in this Forum, on this issue only drive down a One-Way Street. Bigotted, Biased, Hypocrits.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM

Obviously it's impossible to put right most of the injustices of history. But what can always be done is to acknowledge that injustice has been done, and that people today are victims of that injustice.

But in the case of refugees forced from their home by war or persecution there should normally be an option open to them of returning to that home if they choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:32 AM

"Take the lie about the Arab countries telling the local non-Jewish Palestinians to leave until they could clear out the Jews"


Except that it is NOT a lie, as I have previously shown. I gave the references, who said it, wehen, and by what media.

So please try to NOT make false statements that have already been shown to be lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:37 AM

"The British hoped to establish self-governing institutions in Palestine, as required by the mandate. The Jews were alarmed by the prospect of such institutions, which would have an Arab majority. However, the Arabs would not accept proposals for such institutions if they included any Jews at all, and so no institutions were created. The Arabs wanted as little as possible to do with the Jews and the mandate, and would not participate in municipal councils, nor even in the Arab Agency that the British wanted to set up. Ormsby-Gore, undersecretary of state for the colonies concluded, "Palestine is largely inhabited by unreasonable people."

Arab Riots and Jewish immigration - In the spring of 1920, spring of 1921 and summer of 1929, Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. The violence led to the formation of the Haganah Jewish self-defense organization in 1920. The riots of 1920 and 1921 reflected opposition to the Balfour declaration and fears that the Arabs of Palestine would be dispossessed, and were probably attempts to show the British that Palestine as a Jewish National home would be ungovernable. The major instigators were Hajj Amin El Husseini, later Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and eventually a Nazi collaborator, and Arif -El Arif, a prominent Palestinian journalist. The riots of 1929 occurred against the background of Jewish-Arab nationalist antagonism. The Arabs claimed that Jewish immigration and land purchases were displacing and dispossessing the Arabs of Palestine. However, economic, population and other indicators suggest that objectively, the Arabs of Palestine benefited from the Mandate and Zionist investment. Arab standard of living increased faster in Palestine than other areas, and population grew prodigiously throughout the Mandate years. (see Zionism and its Impact). The riots were also fueled by false rumors that the Jews intended to build a synagogue at the wailing wall, or otherwise encroach upon the Muslim rule over the Temple Mount compound, including the Al-Aqsa mosque. The pogroms led to evacuation of most of the Jewish community of Hebron. . The British responded with the Passfield White Paper. The white paper attempted to stop immigration to Palestine based on the recommendations of the Hope Simpson report. That report stated that in the best case, following extensive economic development, the land could support immigration of another 20,000 families in total. Otherwise further Jewish immigration would infringe on the position of the existing Arab population. However, British MPs and the Zionist movement sharply criticized the new policy and PM Ramsay McDonald issued a "clarification" stating that Jewish immigration would not be stopped. "

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:00 AM

The Near East Broadcasting Station in Cyprus declared that "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem."[12]

Sir John Troutbeck, a British diplomat in Cairo, went to Gaza on a fact-finding mission in June 1949. He reported that while the Palestinian Arab refugees "express no bitterness against the Jews […] they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states. 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes."[13]

In the case of Ein Karem, William O. Douglas recorded that "the villagers were told by the Arab leaders to leave. It apparently was a strategy of mass evacuation, whether or not necessary as a military or public safety measure." From eyewitness accounts, Douglas found that this, along with fear of Jewish attack, was a key reason for the exodus from Ein Karem.[14]

Morris also documented that the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of "several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more in April-July 1948. "The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way." [15]

A May 3, 1948 Time Magazine article states:

The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city. More than pride and defiance was behind the Arab orders. By withdrawing Arab workers, their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa. Jewish leaders said wishfully: 'They'll be back in a few days. Already some are returning.'
'One entire jetty,' cabled TIME Correspondent Eric Gibbs, 'was packed with these refugees, sitting on their pathetic bundles or clutching them with the strength of despair. What did these simple, bewildered people seize in the moment of panic? A small Turkish carpet, a radio, a sewing machine were among the treasures. […] Hour after hour they sat, waiting for barges, British landing craft and other odd boats now doing ferry service across the blue bay to Acre.' Other thousands fled to the Arab-held hills near Nablus.[16]

Evidence such as this led Shmuel Katz to conclude in his book Battleground "that the Arab refugees were not driven from Palestine by anyone. The vast majority left, whether of their own free will or at the orders or exhortations of their leaders, always with the same reassurance-that their departure would help in the war against Israel."[17] He explains that "The Arabs are the only declared refugee group who became refugees not by the action of their enemies or because of well-grounded fear of their enemies, but by the initiative of their own leaders."[18]


[edit] Claims by Arab sources that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders
Former Prime Minister of Syria Khalid al-Azm recalled in his memoirs:

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees to their country, while it is we who made them leave it. […]
We brought disaster upon one million Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave their land, their homes, their work and their industry. We have rendered them dispossessed, unemployed, whilst every one of them had work or a trade by which he could gain his livelihood.[19]

After the war, a few Arab leaders tried to present the Palestinian exodus as a victory by claiming to have planned it. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Said was later quoted as saying: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."[20]

Contemporary Jordanian politician Anwar Nusseibeh believed that the fault for the exodus and military loss was with the Arab commanders:

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Additionally, the secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re­enter and retake possession of their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

He explains these orders as follows:

"Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants 'treacherously' acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments. […] There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations"[61]

Furthermore, in his comprehensive book on the Arab-Israeli conflict, Righteous Victims, Morris wrote:

"In some areas Arab commanders ordered the villagers to evacuate to clear the ground for military purposes or to prevent surrender. More than half a dozen villages—just north of Jerusalem and in the Lower Galilee—were abandonded during these months as a result of such orders. Elsewhere, in East Jerusalem and in many villages around the country, the [Arab] commanders ordered women, old people, and children to be sent away to be out of harm's way. Indeed, psychological preparation for the removal of dependents from the battlefield had begun in 1946-47, when the AHC and the Arab League had periodically endorsed such a move when contemplating the future war in Palestine."[62]

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:07 AM

Benny Morris in that book I cited effectively dismantles the stuff about refugees from the war being the consequence of instructions from Arab governments, rather than the natural consequence of fighting and terror.

But in any case it is totally irrelevant. Even if the stories had been true they would in no way have reduced the right of the refugees to return home one the immediate conflict was over.

When people flee their home because of an official warning of an oncoming hurricane, that does not mean that they have forfeited the right to go home afterwards, and that they should have stayed put in their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM

This Morris?

Furthermore, in his comprehensive book on the Arab-Israeli conflict, Righteous Victims, Morris wrote:

"In some areas Arab commanders ordered the villagers to evacuate to clear the ground for military purposes or to prevent surrender. More than half a dozen villages—just north of Jerusalem and in the Lower Galilee—were abandonded during these months as a result of such orders"

"they would in no way have reduced the right of the refugees to return home one the immediate conflict was over."



Agreed-

- and how many of those refugees tried to return in 1948, at the end of the 1948 war? As opposed to those that stayed in the camps and waited for the entire land to be given to them?


- so you support the compensation of the GREATER number of Jews that were driven out of Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

"so you support the compensation of the GREATER number of Jews that were driven out of Arab countries?" - beardedbruce

The thunderous silence that that will provoke will be interesting Bruce, for it would appear that in the region we are talking about:

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to launch unprovoked attacks on Jews, but completely reprehensible for the Jews to defend themselves from those attacking them.

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to invade and occupy land that is not their own and hold it by force of arms, but completely unacceptable for Jews in time of war to do the same in order to secure their boundaries.

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to "ethnically cleanse" Jews from areas where they have lived for centuries, to confiscate their land and property and deport them without compensation or right of return, but entirely unreasonable and inhuman of the Jews to deny right of return to Arabs who have never lived in the part of the 1923 Mandate area now known as Israel, and whose forefathers travelled from Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq to work in industries and agricultural enterprises built up and founded by the Jewish settlers during the time of the Mandate. I believe that the definition that was arrived at was someone who had worked in what is now known as Israel for a period of two years prior to 1948, they do not even have to provide proof of that temporary residency to support their claims - utterly ridiculous, and totally unacceptable.

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to threaten and clearly state their hostile intent towards an independent sovereign state even to the point of repeatedly publicly declaring that they will never acknowledge the right of that state to exist, while at the same time it is the fault of Israel that they do not negotiate with those whose declared aim is the destruction of Israel - What on earth would be the basis for any meaningful negotiation?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

Teribus at his finest yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:08 PM

Possibly not WLD, but maybe they could compare notes with people from Guernica; Warsaw; Rotterdam; London; Coventry; Plymouth; Portsmouth; Clydebank; etc; etc.

As he walked round Coventry, the morning after the attack, Churchill swore that it would repaid a thousand times over - "Bomber" Harris and his "Old Lags" delivered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM

Of course Jews driven from their homes in other countries ought to have have the right to return there, with guarantees of no persecution, and with an option of compensation if they prefer not to do so.

I don't know whether there have ever been an offer from either side of a reciprocal agreement along those lines, with similar choices being offered also to non-Jews who have been exiled from what is now Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Is your point GuestG, in your cross post, that Churchill should have played 'patty cake'? The aggressor does not get to choose the form or degree of reaction!!!! That applies Nazis, Hamas/Hezbullah, or Argentines. [No I am not, repeat not, equating these groups one to the other]

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Problem is that the situation--those who hate Israel notwithstanding--is NOT one-sided. Until such time as folks see that there are two parties here who are wrong then no progress towards a peace settlement will be possible. And with that I bid you a farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

Frankly, I don't care what they do. I'm just tired of paying for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:29 PM

"I don't know whether there have ever been an offer from either side of a reciprocal agreement along those lines, with similar choices being offered also to non-Jews who have been exiled from what is now Israel. "


You mean that you do not look at what the state of Israel offered in 1948- It absorbed the displaced Jews, and the Arab nations could absorb the displaced Palestinian Moslims. Since Israel was a lot smaller, and had more refugees to absorb, this was a case of Israel offering one hell of a lot more than the Arabs ever did-


But the Arabs never did allow the Palestinian refugees to settle, even on the West Bank when it was under Jordanian ( you know, the Palestinian ARAB Homeland created from 77% of Mandate Palestine) rule from 1948 to 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:30 PM

But my question stands:

HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM

It is up to those involved in the struggle to decide what is acceptable but it seems reasonable to me that the Palestinian refugees must have the right to return and there should be a one state democracy with guaranteed right for all religious communities and those of no religion.
These rights would include
1 Freedom of worship
2 Freedom to gather together to worship
3 Freedom of religious assembly
4 The right to move freely in a peacable way
Freedom to observe religious holidays etc

Obviously these rights would need to be enshrined and guaranteed .
Hugo

And i do recognise that what is easy to write down on paper is a whole lot different in real life but the alternative is another 60 years of repression,bigotry and slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

Freedom of worship
2 Freedom to gather together to worship
3 Freedom of religious assembly
4 The right to move freely in a peacable way
Freedom to observe religious holidays etc

Obviously these rights would need to be enshrined and guaranteed


And will you demand that the Arab nations do the same?

Saudi Arabia
Iran
Lebanon
Syria
Morocco
Algeria
Egypt
Yeman
Quatar
etc?

Or is it ONLY Israel that has to comply????

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:24 PM

I suppose if we think of people as some kind of homogenous commodity to be stacked away on convenient shekves a mutual agreement to "absorb displaced Arabs and Jews" makes sense. And so does a question like "HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?"

But the other way of seeing it to remind ourselves we are talking about human beings with indvidual lives and hopes who have had to live in exile from their own homes and from their own land, and who should have their right to return recognised and protected. And that applies just as much to Jews who have been displaced against their will as it does to Moslems and Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

Right you are. McGrath,etc;   Which brings us right back to the other query---and how do the Arab nations feel about that---or, as asked, is it only Israel tht needs to comply?

British history in this area is not what one can call completely neutral given some of the PM there starting with (or including) Bevan. Balfour made some sense and you see how that was "welcomed".

As to the neighboring states---just today Ahmadijinidad (who the hell can spell it but another fellow of his ilk) said, at an international conference, that Israel will be wiped off the face of the map---whether or not Iran does it is not important. He has not been invived to social events by the very people he is speaking about. Strange.   

Yes, peace is just around the corner because Pres. Bush says it is---just like in Iraq.   As long as we have people of such good will as the Iranian Pres. ( was not going to spell that one again), Dubya, and his fabrications, and all the other ill willed people in that area it will be an elusive thing and not not one that Israel can be blamed for.

True--very true--Israel has its faults as do we. Is Israel announcing its intention of wiping other nations off the face of the earth or acting for self defense?

I am sure some of the---well, certain ones---members of this forum will give truly honest and objective commentary. And that honest and true answer will be promulgated by the very obejective writers we have here---I think of one in particular. For those that might get my drift---that is saarcasm

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:52 PM

A few typos--as usual--such is the price of intensity. We need spell check for us who rush.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:01 PM

Reads just fine, Bill. Just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:39 AM

Don't go confusing the map for the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

Greetings:

I should point out that Amnesty International does hold all states accountable for human rights abuses, including the Arab states that Beardedbruce lists, and including Israel at times, and also oncluding the Palestine Authority, which may not be a state but sure knows all the bad habits of statehood.

My own point is not to weigh the abuses and injustices of each side against one another, but to say that peace and reconciliation cannot come until people are willing to look at and understand the abuses and injustices committed by their own side. Despite what some would claim, doing so doesn't make you disloyal, treacherous, self-hating, or neurotic. It simply makes you honest, and that's a good and necessary first step.

As I have said before, I am pessimistic. The scars by now run too deep, the positions have become too rigid, and there are just too many crazies out there ready, willing, and able to award what I call the Middle East Peace Prize to anyone who makes a move towards reconciliation. The Middle East Peace Prize is, of course, a few grams of hot lead. Previous recipients have included, among others, UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte, UN observer Andre Serot, Jordan's King Abdullah, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin. I doubt that they will be the last.

As the apocryphal old man in Jerusalem told me, "I feel like I'm talking to a fucking wall!"

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:04 PM

It's time to cut off the funding!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:41 PM

Absolutely Rigginslinger - but from where? Or is this the usual one sided bullshit?? Or are you going to call Syria and Iran to account??

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:36 PM

How aboutn, as a first step, offer to reduce funding to the same level as that provided by Syria and Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:52 PM

Great idea, McGrath!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:38 AM

Any idea what that actually is Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

No - but I doubt if it comes too near the level of US military aid to Israel: "US defence aid to Israel currently stands at $2.4bn a year - the new package would amount to a 25% increase. (From BBC News website, 29 July 2007.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

Really bad idea, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:39 AM

If the "2.5 billion in military aid (per year) for Israel" is correct, that figure represents less than one dollar per thousand in the US federal budget. I think we can afford that. Their medical technology breakthroughs are second in the world to those of the US. Their technology advancements are also important.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:57 AM

Whether the USA can afford to pay for it isn't the point. I imagine Iran and Syria can pay for whatever military aid they provide as well. I'm sure the people who carried out September 11th could afford the plane fares, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM

Yes, whatever it is, it's too much. America needs to start thinking about it's own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

Raytheon Nine Walk Free!
Some good news received today . Apparently the Raytheon Nine in Derry who entered the Raytheon Offices in Ulster during the Israeli bombing of Lebanon two years ago and were subsequently charged with criminal damage and affray have had all charges dropped and their trial halted after several days in court.
Raytheon, a multinational manufacturer and supplier of military equipment,was subject to a "sit in" by peace and anti war protestors after the Israeli military used Raytheon supplied cluster bombs against Leanese civilians. The protestors had occupied a Raytheon office and had ,so it was alleged, thrown computer equipment out of a window.However,the trial seems to have collapsed according to reports on the web!
Raytheon
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

Israel's medical advancements don't help me or my family one tiny little bit, because we have no access to any health care whatever. Until the US can make sure that all of its citizens have access to health care and we are able to maintain our roads and infrastructure, Israel has no business taking money from us.

And as long as the US taxpayers are paying for Israel's welfare state, we have a right to speak out against its apartheid and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:38 PM

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

--Erskine Childers, British researcher

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

Who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:06 PM

"Until the US can make sure that all of its citizens have access to health care and we are able to maintain our roads and infrastructure, Israel has no business taking money from us."

After this senseless shit you posted I will say 'who cares' to every post you make in future. You slam Jews yet make no mention of money the US gives to Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

The US is not giving any money to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

"The US is not giving any money to Hamas."

Anyone got jujubes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

And I suppose they don't fund the Palestinian Authority either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:30 PM

I don't suppose anyone who lives in a country with universal health care can appreciate what it's like to not have any access to health care at all, or to only be able to get access to health care by going bankrupt and losing their home. I imagine it's easy to be glib when one doesn't daily face the specter of dying or going homeless in the event of a serious illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

I would like the government if this country to stop giving my tax money to both Israel as well as Abbas. However, the amount it is giving to Abbas wouldn't do nearly as much good for people in need in the US as the amount it is giving to Israel, since the amount being given to Abbas is a small fraction of the amount it has been giving to Israel.

And the US is only giving that money to Abbas to help him help Israel fight Hamas. It's not being used to help the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

I note again that I am not allowed to respond to anyone, including those who make personal attacks on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

"I don't suppose anyone who lives in a country with universal health care can appreciate what it's like to not have any access to health care at all, or to only be able to get access to health care by going bankrupt and losing their home. I imagine it's easy to be glib when one doesn't daily face the specter of dying or going homeless in the event of a serious illness."

So your rationale is that Isreal has caused your lack of health care. BRILLIANT.

Now, has anyone got jujubes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:13 PM

'I imagine it's easy to be glib when one doesn't daily face the specter of dying or going homeless in the event of a serious illness."'

And, fyi, I do face that prospect. But I don't figure it's the Palestinians' fault (the way you figure it's the Israelis' fault in your case). I suppose that by using your convoluted logic I could MAKE it the Palestinians' fault, but I don't hate them the way you hate Israelis.

Now, back to the jujubes . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:15 PM

We are told that there isn't enough money to provide the people of the US with health care. But we are spending billions of dollars a year on the War in Iraq and making welfare payments to Israel. The war in Iraq is doing nothing to help the US taxpayers, and Israel doesn't need our money. It's got plenty of its own money and a highly advanced and well equipped military. The people of the US do need that money.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:21 PM

The people of Canada do not in any way face the kinds of problems that millions of people in the US face with it comes to health issues. In Canada, one can go to a doctor and get preventative health care. Canadians can be screened for illnesses that are not fatal if treated, but if not treated, will eventually kill them. Millions of people in the US cannot do that. Millions of people in the US do not have access to regular screenings for treatable cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, and other treatable health problems, and if they do find themselves facing these illnesses, they are not able to afford the treatments. This is not the case in Canada, where everyone can get screened, as well as treated for these as well any other health problems they experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:34 PM

The complain to your government. Your government is not on Mudcat. Have a NICE day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:41 PM

The only way to make the government comply is for the voters to collectively make their will known. This is one of the reasons people discuss politics with each other, including in public forms like the Mudcat. To bring the issues to the surface, discuss them, and work out possible solutions.

In the US, speaking out in public forums has always been a way for voters to discuss issues and work out possible solutions. This is what I am doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:44 PM

You perhaps could do more good by joining forces with this man, Carol:

Dr. Patch Adams

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:44 PM

True. But your expressed hatred of Israelis shows through very clearly. All too clearly. You are not interested in anything resembling fairness. And if you are it seldom shows in your posts. Go lecture your friends and the converted. They will buy into the noise. I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:48 PM

"I note again that I am not allowed to respond to anyone, including those who make personal attacks on me."



                         Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM

But your expressed hatred of Israelis shows through very clearly.

I can't think of a single post I have ever read by Carol which justifies that. Maybe I've missed the ones you refer to - but I think it more likely that you are reading into them what you imagine to be there, and assume that criticism has to be based on hatred.

I understand that direct personal abuse, which that amounts to, is not seen as acceptable on the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:52 PM

At least a couple or three of you have warned me on this thread that Christian Zionists support Israel in order bring about End Times.
I read in the Jerusalem Post where Lockheed-Martin may sell F-22 fighters to Israel. Could this be the Raptor which brings about the Rapture?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:02 PM

I wonder how many Canadians would be willing to give up their universal health care while their government was sending billions of dollars of their tax money to a country that didn't need it. I'm guessing not very many.


Regardless of whether or not I would be allowed to respond to personal abuse in the Mudcat, it's not possible to respond to accusations of hating Israelis anyway. If one responds by saying they don't hate Israelis, they'll get the "un huh" response and they'll be accused of being defensive, which, they will be told, proves that they do hate Israelis. It doesn't really matter whether or not the person being so accused really does hate Israelis, because the only purpose in making such an accusation is to bully people into silence. Such accusations conveniently overlook the many Israelis with whom people like me are in agreement, and who are most decidedly not in agreement with the kinds of people who make those kinds of accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:06 PM

"Israel's medical advancements don't help me or my family one tiny little bit, because we have no access to any health care whatever. Until the US can make sure that all of its citizens have access to health care and we are able to maintain our roads and infrastructure, Israel has no business taking money from us.

And as long as the US taxpayers are paying for Israel's welfare state, we have a right to speak out against its apartheid and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians."

Tying the two together when the monstrous expenditure of the Iraq War is still there seems to be a bit out of sync, doesn't it?

That post states that the Israelis are to blame for the poster's lack of health care. HUH?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:06 PM

I am not allowed to respond to anyone in the Mudcat for any reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:08 PM

That is not true, Carol. You are exaggerating that big time. You can and DO respond to posts. Read what you've written. Your health care remark wasn't addressed to me? Yeak. Right!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:15 PM

The US has been giving money to Israel for many years. The total of direct US aid the US has given to Israel is around 108 billion dollars. And that doesn't count all of the hidden ways we give money to Israel, such as guaranteed loans, which Israel has never once paid back. That's a lot of money and we need it. Israel doesn't. If we had that money now, we would be able to provide health care to people in the US. The war in Iraq could be considered a kind of financial aid to Israel as well, since many Israeli and Zionist leaders see the war in Iraq as being strategically important to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 PM

The total American debt is close to seven or eight TRILLION dollars. But the Israelis caused you to have no health care. Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:22 PM

I'm telling what I have been told by Joe Offer. I have been told that I am not allowed to respond directly to any posters, and I am not allowed to quote from or make similar kinds of references to any particular post. I am allowed to post information, which is what I am doing when I say that I am not allowed to respond to posters. I challenge anyone to try to figure out how to follow a rule like that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM

You posted to me.

The percent is about 1.6 of the American debt. How then does Israel end up responsible for the US having no health care?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM

The amount of money we are giving to Israel, if we kept it, would make it possible for us to set up a universal health care system. They don't need it. We do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:26 PM

You will set up universal health care with 1.6% of your national debt. Huh. Guess Israel IS to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:28 PM

"I can't think of a single post I have ever read by Carol which justifies that. Maybe I've missed the ones you refer to - but I think it more likely that you are reading into them what you imagine to be there, and assume that criticism has to be based on hatred."

How about extreme dislike? That make you feel better?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:30 PM

I am allowed to discuss the subject that is being discussed in the thread. This is what I am doing. I have not referred to any individual posters in any of my posts since I was informed of this rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:32 PM

Well, in reality, why would the US be sending money to Israel? We might propell social security another generation down the road, and there are dozens of countries around the world who need financial help worse than they do. I just doesn't make sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:33 PM

Thu Jun 5, 4:17 PM

By Richard Cowan


"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Democratic-controlled Congress on Thursday adopted a $3 trillion U.S. budget for next year as the House of Representatives put the finishing touches on a measure to eliminate deficits by 2012 while spending more than President George W. Bush wanted for domestic programs.

By a partisan vote of 214-210, the House approved the nonbinding Democratic budget that sketches out spending priorities for the next five years -- through a new president's term.

The Senate approved an identical measure on Wednesday, embracing Bush's continuation of a military buildup that sets aside more than $500 billion for national defense next year."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:33 PM

Read paragraph three and weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:35 PM

We need the money we are giving to Israel. Israel does not need it. Again, I question whether anyone in any other industrialized country would be willing to have many billions of dollars of their tax money being given to a country that doesn't need it, while they are not able to get health care to millions of their own citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:46 PM

To all of you who were raised on New Math, let us go back to simple arithmetic. If the US federal budget is 3 trillion dollars and Israel gets 2.4 billion, that is about 8 ten thousanths (8/10,000) of the federal budget. It ain't 1.6%!!! Corruption and fraud are at least 30%. Israel is not responsible for any damage to our economy nor is it a drain on our resources. Please rail against fraud and corruption. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:23 PM

The Dillards used to speak of the outhouses in rural Missouri which were 20 feet from the house; 20 feet too close in summer, but 20 feet to far in winter. That's what this discussion of the Israel part of the US budget reminds me of, depending on which side one is on. It is my understanding that Egypt gets the same US dollar aid as Israel. Now I have not checked to see if this is still the case, but I know someone will...and they'll give an accurate citation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:31 PM

On the subject of Patch Adams, I used to give him a little money every month back in the 80s, even though I couldn't really afford it at the time. And I had an opportunity to talk with him on the phone once. I see he's not really any closer to accomplishing his goal now than he was back then. I don't think he is the answer to the problem of millions of people in the US not having health care. If all of the other industrialized nations in the world can have universal health care systems that their citizens value and appreciate (and they do), so can the people of the US. All we have to do is put our resources into our own country instead of pissing them all away on our own and Israel's imperialist ambitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:34 PM

I should point out that I have not said Israel is responsible for the fact that we don't have health care. I have said that if we stopped giving Israel billions of dollars of our tax money, we would be able to afford to provide health care to those of our citizens who don't have it. And we could. As long as we are not taking care of our own citizens, we shouldn't be giving our money away to a country that doesn't need it. We need it. They do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:37 PM

I don't think we should be giving that money to Egypt, either. We're giving them that money so they'll be compliant with our wishes on the subject of Israel. So that's even more money we're spending for the benefit of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:46 PM

Learned about half hour ago that a friend (middle 40s) of my wife's who lives in one of those European Universal Health Care paradises has been diagnosed with cancer requiring a total hysterectomy. It took several weeks to get the necessary tests, over three weeks to get the results, and it will be five to six weeks, minimum, before she can get the actual surgery.

I'll take our system with all its warts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:55 PM

If I needed a hysterectomy, I wouldn't be able to get one at all here in the US, no matter how long I waited. That's not a system. It's the absence of a system.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:13 AM

I'm afraid to say that the one-sided pre-occupation to seemingly damn Israel in almost every post, by one particular poster, is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. There's a myriad of reasons why the USA does not have a proper health system, why are they not being mentioned as well? A new thread is needed for that purpose perhaps.

On Patch Adams:

"I see he's not really any closer to accomplishing his goal now than he was back then. I don't think he is the answer to the problem of millions of people in the US not having health care."

Really? Then you do him a grave injustice, for he will accomplish his dream, and if that dream is not fulfilled in his lifetime, then he knows it will be achieved for him, by those who will continue to fight to make it happen. He is changing the system, not only from without, but from within. It is not only money that will change it, but a change in the views of many doctors too. He is getting people to let go of the old ways of thinking, that being, that medicine is about money and nothing else. Many young medical students now have a strong desire to change the greedy system, after listening to Patch talk, learning about what he is doing, seeing how hard he is fighting.

"....I'm in the 37th year of our hospital project. I thought it was going to take 4 years to build....I'm in the 37th year and I haven't started building the building. Every day I get *more* enthusiastic for it, I *never* get discouraged, or feel it's been hard or difficult, because I know it's the right thing to do......" - Patch Adams - taken from the video below.(The first 40 seconds, are in Brazilian, after that, Patch delivers his highly illuminating and inspirational reply.)

Patch Adams - A Revolutionary Way of Thinking

He is changing the outlook from 'money' to 'love' However, until the American people themselves choose to run with that, they will have a system which continues to de-sensitise and de-humanise, and that has nothing to do with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:18 AM

"If I needed a hysterectomy, I wouldn't be able to get one at all here in the US, no matter how long I waited."

May I ask why you would not be able to have one?

Surely it's not due to Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM

"has never once paid back. That's a lot of money and we need it."


WW I and WWII war debts with interest?? What about Lend-lease?

Until you get on those debts, I do not think the Israeli debt is significant.


But if you want to blame Israel for the PRESENT Democratic Congress's inability to fund health care feel free... I may not agree, but so what?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:51 AM

"Dislike of Israelis?" No, I can't see any evidence of that either. Israel perhaps, not Israelis.

Being strongly critical of a country's regime just is not the same as hating the inhabitants of that country, in the same way that being opposed to a political party or a religion has to mean hating the adherents of that party or that religion. People who detested apartheid South Africa, or who loathe the present regime in Cuba cannot be assumed to have hated white South Africans or to hate Cubans.

True enough, some people seem to find it very hard to avoid confusing the two, but I can't see any indication that Carol does.
.....................

My understanding is that America's failure to provide a proper system of health care for its citizens has nothing to do with being unable to afford to do so, but is a political choice made by the people in power. Military aid to Israel, and the costs of the war in Iraq surely have little to do with this - if the money wasn't spent on that I doubt if it would be available for providing a pattern of health care that is not seen as ideologically acceptable. At this time it'd probably be used for tax breaks for wealthier Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:53 AM

McGrath,

I agree with almost all of your last comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:15 AM

"To all of you who were raised on New Math, let us go back to simple arithmetic. If the US federal budget is 3 trillion dollars and Israel gets 2.4 billion, that is about 8 ten thousanths (8/10,000) of the federal budget. It ain't 1.6%!!!"

I failed math in school. Now you know why.

However, my 1.6% figure was based on the figure she gave of 108 billion dollars as part of the USA's debt of seven trillion dollars. I divided 108 billion by 7 trillion and got 1.6%. I was using a worse-case scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

Gee, I just thought you were working in base 18.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

That is very funny. But I don't know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM

I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

In other words 11001000.

This post being 11001001.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:09 PM

Peace, by the same reasoning it takes 100 people to make up a bridge deal. 1 hand is the dummy, while 11 hands actually manipulate cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

Right. Base 92 stuff. I'm with y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM

Carole is quite right to point out the vast sums of money paid by the American taxpayer to fund the Israeli war machine and to keep the Israeli economy afloat.

That colossal sum has gone to keep the Israeli military in the occupied West Bank which is probably the longest illegal occupation of another country in recent history.

The American funding also meant that Israel was able to launch its recent air,sea and land attack on Israel-an attack which killed thousands and left 15000 Lebanese homes destroyed.

This funding has not been for the benefit of the Palestinian or Lebanese people and indeed in the long term has only harmed the reputation of Israel.

The years when many of us sympathised with plucky little Israel have long gone. Across the world people now see Israel as an arms supplier and supporter of thuggish regimes like the apartheid era South Africa and modern day Colombia.They see Israel as the neighbourhood bully always trying to crush,humiliate and kill Palestinians and Lebanese and they see Israel as a country that ignores UN resolutions and indeed is a killer of UN personnel.

The Israel gets away with it because it has the military support of the USA....which rushed armaments and munitions to Israel during its 2006 attack on Lebanon.

CaroleC is correct to point out that in choosing to fund warfare the Bush administration has turned its back on the healthcare and welfare so badly needed by the low waged and the poor.There's always money for a new weapons system but money is just as often too tight to mention when it comes to public programmes that care for the elderly or sick .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

And there's the hat rack heard from.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:00 PM

Today, in a surprise move by the caring folks of Hezbollah, more rockets were bought to fire on Israeli civilians. The money is purported to come from neighbouring states who have a vested interest in there being no peace at all in the Middle East.

The leadership of Hamas has declared that he is surprised by the move and that he seriously doubts anyone has contributed funds for that purpose. Speculation runs wild that maybe this is the final resting place of Arafat's millions ($300,000,000) that seems to have left the coffers of the Palestinian people. He was though to have been holding the money in trust. Then, he dropped dead and left the cash to his heirs--however, one can but suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM

Israel was able to launch its recent air, sea and land attack on Israel- Slight error there..

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:42 PM

Slight? Someone will get fired over that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

I would like to point out yet once again that I have not blamed Israel for the fact that I don't have access to health care. What I have said is that we shouldn't be giving billions of dollars a year to a country that doesn't need it while the needs of the people in this country aren't being met. This is not an unreasonable position. I don't think anyone who has access to health care can understand what it's like to know that a not insignificant percentage the hard earned money I and my husband are sending to the government is being given away to a country that doesn't need it, while citizens of this country are not getting their needs met. This is also not a criticism of Israel, but a criticism of the government of my own country. People who need to see in these comments a criticism of Israel are having their perceptions distorted by their own prejudices. Either that, or my meaning is being intentionally distorted as a smear tactic.

I don't think Patch Adams is going to solve any problems. I've been watching him for too long. He's a well-meaning flake, but he's a flake nevertheless. When I talked to him on the phone, I was in a bit of a crisis, and his responses showed me that his talk is just that... talk.

I am no less critical of the government of the US than I am of the government of Israel. When governments are doing things they shouldn't do, and when I have a direct tie with those governments, either through being a voter in their country or by supporting them with my tax dollars, not only do I have a right to speak up about what they are doing, but I also have a responsibility to do so. And I will continue to do so, regardless of the smear tactics that people use to try to silence the people of conscience who speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

People of conscience condemn both sides for their respective brutalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM

Iran is playing the "wipe out Israel" card again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

I am not able to have a hysterectomy, or any other medical procedure, because I don't have any health insurance and I don't have enough money to afford to pay for them myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:55 PM

My money is not enabling both sides. My money is only enabling one side. If that were not the case, I would not be working so hard to change this fact (which is why I speak out).

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

I don't think Patch Adams is going to solve any problems. I've been watching him for too long. He's a well-meaning flake, but he's a flake nevertheless. When I talked to him on the phone, I was in a bit of a crisis, and his responses showed me that his talk is just that... talk.

Could you please define exactly what you mean by 'flake'?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:19 PM

I think Patch Adams is not good at following through.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

Arnold Palmer had that problem for a while. He got it fixed, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

I think Patch Adams is not good at following through.


Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

Like I said, it's based on a telephone conversation I had with him. The rest is personal. I did state it as an opinion, so I don't need to provide evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:39 PM

Maybe somebody in the know could make a connection between Patch Adams and the ongoing saga of Israel and the Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:43 AM

Maybe somebody in the know could make a connection between Patch Adams and the ongoing saga of Israel and the Arabs.

Patch In Palestine

Patch In Israel:

From a 2002 article from The Israel Insider (which I'm afraid I am unable to link to, as you have to register to 'save' their stories, so I have taken the liberty of cutting and pasting it below) His trip to Israel, and thence to Gaza, was paid for by an Israeli hospital.

Doctor of laughter livens up Israeli hearts
By Ellis Shuman December 10, 2002


Bookmark to del.icio.usDigg This Story

Patch Adams, the doctor, clown and founder of the Gesundheit! Institute who is the real person behind the hit Robin Williams movie, arrived in Israel this week as a guest of Asaf Harofe Hospital. Attending a lecture at the hospital were students in a six-month clowning course inspired by Adams's example.

Upon landing at Ben-Gurion International Airport on Sunday, Adams already began cheering up Israelis as he hugged, kissed and jumped all over the children and adults in the arrivals hall. Adams arrived from the United States along with nine other clown medics from his hospital, and passport control officials had difficulties identifying the visitors due to their clown outfits and makeup.

The visit is Adams's first in Israel, and the course being held at the Tzrifin hospital is the first of its kind in the Middle East. The course teaches personnel how to utilize humor in medical care, and the subject matter includes laughter, makeup and pantomime.

On Monday, Adams toured the hospital wards, and his antics made the patients laugh until tears, Yediot Aharonot reported. In the afternoon Adams gave a standing room only lecture to more than 500 doctors and nurses from all over the country. Tickets to the lecture were sold out long before.

Outfitted as a clown with blue hair and a fork dangling from one ear, Adams told the audience of his experiences over the last 32 years. He opened his talk by commenting that the hit movie that publicized his story did not relate to his intense activities against wars around the world. "Last May, my brother and I participated in a congress in Russia," Adams said. "We met two Israelis from an Israeli-Palestinian education center, and we told them we would be willing to come and help resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Adams and his team have traveled around the world in efforts to bring a bit of happiness to patients everywhere. In March, Adams traveled with 22 clowns to Afghanistan. "We went to a hospital in Kabul where there was no food and no medicines. You could see how helpless medicine was. You could see the hunger in the children's eyes.

"That is why I came [to Israel]," he continued. "Laughter, joy, pleasure and love are the solutions to your problems. You need to care. You must end the violence. You should sit together, eat, drink, laugh and talk. This is not a philosophy. This should become common practice, something that is implemented. Not only in medicine, but in life, clowning can be the trick that can ease the pain and bring forth the love."

At the end of his lecture, Adams met with a group of Israeli children who were victims of terror attacks. During his week-long visit he will work with participants in the hospital's course, and also visit Palestinian hospitals.

Patch Adams has also took his clowns into the war zone in Kabul. If you google 'Patch Adams in Kabul on Youtube' you will be linked to the Italian documentary about it. I've not linked it here, as many of the clips contain harrowing scenes of severely injured children. Somehow, in the midst of such terrible pain and suffering, they are able to have their agony turned to smiles, by the love and laughter that Patch and his clowns bring to them.

This man, described as 'a flake...nonetheless a well-meaning flake' by a poster above, has given his life to the pursuit of peace, joy and love. Far from 'not following through', he is respected throughout the world, bringing light to people in their darkest moments. He may not have 'followed through' on the wishes of one person above, perhaps, but to describe him thus, is, in my opinion, intensely wrong. He is changing the face and 'philosophy' of medicine not only in the U.S. but throughout the world. He is also challenging Governments and Corporate Industries too. I take offence at him being so casually 'written off' as being a man of little significance.

And before 'someone' comes back to say that he has not been back there, since 2002, and therefore has not 'followed through', well, Patch belongs to the world, not just to the Middle East. He has thousands of people who need him desperately. He is one man, with limited resources, who, despite having an ever-growing army of helpers, many of whom are doctors themselves, cannot be in all places, at all times, but he will never stop in his quest for peace and love, until his dying day.

Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams is a man of HUGE Significance.

And now, back to the Mudcat Middle East Warzone....

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:10 AM

I think it's lovely that Patch Adams is working for peace. I hope he continues that work and has every success with it. In that respect, I don't think he is at all a flake. He's a good feelings kind of guy and that's something he's very good at spreading around.

But he is not going to bring health care to those of us in the US who don't have access to it, despite any claims he may make otherwise. And that was the assertion that I was addressing. I can say from long experience that big red noses and bear suits don't make not having access to any kind of medical or other health care any easier to live with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:42 AM

"But he is not going to bring health care to those of us in the US who don't have access to it,..."

            But he would if he could... And if he could only get members of Congress to see what clowns they are, they might actually get busy and pass something, and it any body could do it...

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:53 PM

I had not wanted to re-enter this discussion but since it has gone off on a truly strange tangent by our resident authority on all things Middle East because the "authority"cannot afford medical insurance--or care--because of Israel I had to join in.

We need the money we are giving to Israel. Israel does not need it. Again, I question whether anyone in any other industrialized country would be willing to have many billions of dollars of their tax money being given to a country that doesn't need it, while they are not able to get health care to millions of their own citizens.

Let me see if I have this right---if Israel did not get U S aid we would have proper health care. If the war in Iraq continues, the aid to other Mid - East countries, and the all the aid around the world it would not enter the equation. Let me also understand this. Does this un-named poster (due to no personal responses)believe that Medical Insurance this poster cannot afford would miraculously appear if the U S stopped sending dollars around the world---but, mostly, to Israel? Try the word "politics" as to medical care, Social Security, and all other social programs.

It has always amazed me how far this nation has come given the self interst diplayed by so many people---from the politicos to the ---as the novel of years back once said---"The Great Unwashed". But we have. Mircacle of miracles.

As to medical care. I have to agree with this poster--who cannot be named. It is a sad thing that this nation does not have proper medical care for all its citizens. Which brings us to the comments in the previous paragraph of how it is we have come as far as we have. What we have to disagree on is the direct link between aid to Israel and Medical Insurance.

One particular line stands out----"...a country that does not need it"..

Let me translate that code for our readership---Rich Jews (ala Mr.A Hitler)!. Oil rich Arab nations that rcve aid and have dealings with our multinationals do not seem to bother our objective correspondent. Aid to Egypt----and guess who built the pyramids for no pay---does not seem to upset our aforementioned correspondent.

I think the bottom line is that there is no direct link between her medical problems and foreign aid---anywhere.

I hope the hysterectomy works out---sincerely. Perhaps a benefit concert. Though---proper insurance would be only right and would not really be connected to those Israelis who advanced medicine but but are not in need of U S Aid to maintain the nation because it is supported by ---you know those rich old---you know who.

I wonder, as a final thought, if there were no American Revolution and England kept he colonies how history would have turned out. As they said after the revolution---Who'd A Thunk it? Ok--no one ever said that---except me!.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:58 PM

People keep putting words in my mouth. I see no reason to try to defend someone else's straw man argument.

What I have said before, and I will say again, is this... we have no business sending billions of dollars to another country that doesn't need it while the needs of the people in this country are not being met.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:56 PM

Yes, I agree, Carol, but I'd happily quit giving money to Egypt as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 10:15 PM

I would too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM

"The US has been giving money to Israel for many years. The total of direct US aid the US has given to Israel is around 108 billion dollars. And that doesn't count all of the hidden ways we give money to Israel, such as guaranteed loans, which Israel has never once paid back. That's a lot of money and we need it. Israel doesn't. If we had that money now, we would be able to provide health care to people in the US. The war in Iraq could be considered a kind of financial aid to Israel as well, since many Israeli and Zionist leaders see the war in Iraq as being strategically important to Israel."

I seem to have misunderstood. The above poster didn't even imply that Israel had anything to do with lack of free/affordable health care in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:10 PM

There is nothing factually incorrect in the part of my post that has been quoted. If we had that money, we could do that.

There is also nothing in the part quoted that implies that Israel is responsible for the fact that we are giving it this money instead of keeping it and using it for the benefit of the people in this country. So there is nothing in the post that implies that Israel is responsible for the lack of health care for many people in the US.

The US government is responsible for the fact that we are giving this money to Israel. And the US government is responsible for the fact that almost 50 million (and growing) people in the US have no access to any kind of health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:12 PM

Right. So rather than remark on a defense budget that is way out of control that post remarked on Israel. I get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

I imagine if people put enough creativity into twisting my words, they can squeeze pretty much any kind of meaning out of them.

However, what I said before, and I will say again, is this...

We have no business sending billions of dollars to another country that doesn't need it while the needs of the people in this country are not being met.

This is money that US taxpayers earn with their (our) hard work. It is money that should be used for this country and for the benefit of the people in this country, and not given away as welfare payments to people who do not live in or pay taxes in this country, especially since they don't need it.

I don't think anyone whose hard earned tax money is not being given away to another country that doesn't need it, while people in their own country aren't getting their needs met, is in a position to tell those of us who are how we should feel about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

So that means ALL other countries that don't need it and not just Israel, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM

See my 07 Jun 08 - 10:15 PM post and the post that preceded it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM

You know the poster who shall be unnamed truly should run for public office (Pres?) since the sins of omission and the hyperbole along with the obfuscation of the core of her arguments is always being blamed on misinterpration by others. The poster would also have us believe that there is a direct link between health care and foreign aid. Would that were the case.

Health care is a political football all on its own---sadly. Think back to the cliches of years past---socialized medicine, welfare, and more. How come no mention of the the pork that Senators spend much time promulgating---bridges to nowhere for example.   Well, it is not Kosher since it is Pork; so, perhaps, our poster does not feel that important.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 09:17 PM

Direct link or not, we have no business giving billions of dollars to a country that doesn't need it, while people in this country aren't getting their needs met.

BTW, I am the only one who is not allowed to directly refer to other posters. There is no rule that others can't mention me by screen name, or to make personal attacks on me either, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:52 PM

There are too many glittering generalities about this issue. Obviously there is some problem about some Arabs who live in Israel. There is a denial by some Israelis who believe that Palestinians are Arabs and not Palestinians. There is a problem also with Jews who live in Arab countries as well.

This everybody-gets-along-so-well idea is reminiscent of the patronizing attitude of
white landholders in Antebellum and recent US South toward Black people.

Of course there is a problem otherwise there would not be the conflict.

Harvard studies are cheap, these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 12:07 AM

When the Native Americans were being wiped out and driven from their lands by the European settlers, there was nothing they could have done or not done to prevent it from happening. There was a policy to do so, and a plan for carrying it out, and these were backed by superior military might. It is no different for the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 01:24 AM

CarolC, your post of 10 Jun 08 - 12:07 AM is complete and utter rubbish, you are comparing apples to oranges. The Native American Indians negotiated peace treaties with the "White Man" in good faith, they had every intention of keeping them. It was the US Government in Washington and the greed of the settler's that broke those treaties.

Now with regards to the Palestine/Israeli conflict you have one side who seeks the desctruction of the other and has made no secret of it and who views any peace treaty/cease-fire as being only a temporary measure in which to rearm and regroup. And another side committed to finding a peaceful resolution and to peaceful co-existence. The first group CarolC are the Palestinians, the second the Israelis.

Nothing at all like your attempted comparison CarolC, unless of course you wish to reverse the roles.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

"Now with regards to the Palestine/Israeli conflict you have one side who seeks the desctruction of the other and has made no secret of it..."


                        Which side is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:19 AM

The side that seeks the other's destruction is the one that has, since before they even began dispossessing those on the other side, been very clear that removing all of those other people is the goal.

The European colonialists in what is now Israel and occupied Palestine have been very clear from the very beginning that their goal and purpose is to remove all of the indigenous people from the area they wanted for their state, and they have also been very clear that the boundaries of the area they want for their state shall be defined only by them.

And this makes my comparison entirely accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:28 AM

Thinking it so does NOT make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Teribus writes:-

"The Native American Indians negotiated peace treaties with the "White Man" in good faith, they had every intention of keeping them. It was the US Government in Washington and the greed of the settler's that broke those treaties."

And the Israeli government broke treaties with Palestine by a process of genocide.

"Now with regards to the Palestine/Israeli conflict you have one side who seeks the desctruction of the other and has made no secret of it and who views any peace treaty/cease-fire as being only a temporary measure in which to rearm and regroup."

This is right-wing propaganda that is emanating from the halls of the Pentagon and White House. The truth is that in spite of the rhetoric, neither Israel or Palestine want war.
This is the machination of Teribus. It is not in Palestine's interest to wipe out Israel and they know it. What they want is parity, plain and simple. Teribus is talking rubbish.

" And another side committed to finding a peaceful resolution and to peaceful co-existence. The first group CarolC are the Palestinians, the second the Israelis."

This is so much propaganda that it will not pass the smell test. There are factions in Israel that see the injustice done to Palestinians but there are hawks such as Ohmert who show very little interest in peaceful negotiations, just a wish to dominate. AIPAC in the US support this insanity because they are afraid. Fear is what dominates foreign policy in the Mid-East today, not peaceful resolutions which are not in evidence at all.

Carol C is exactly right. There is a lop-sided view in favor of Israel's autonomy at the expense of a Palestinian state, which many in Israel do not want to see established.
Hamas is a reactionary force, like so many, which has its back up against a wall. It is not
an effective worker for peace at the present although Jimmy Carter has said that it would consider peaceful negotiations. Carter has set the groundwork for talks as he did in his presidency between Arab and Israel. This stupid war-mongering is the effect of Washington/AIPAC brainwashing and bully-pulpit hegemony which will not solve any
of the problems of the Mid-East. The idea that one side is not culpable is ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

It takes decades of planning and action to bring something like that to fruition, which is certainly what has happened. We can see the results ourselves even though the plan is still being implemented and is not yet complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

"The idea that one side is not culpable is ludicrous."

Absolutely. AT LAST someone who is willing to say that BOTH sides are at fault. THANK YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:29 PM

Both sides are at fault in most conflicts. But that does not mean equally at fault - for example on cases of domestic violence. "She was asking for it" is not generally seen as excusing a man who brutalises his wife.

Similarly, for example, the comparative scale of killings of civilians, and of children in particular, on two sides in a conflict are a significant element in apportioning relative condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:12 AM

Native Americans committed acts of violence against the European colonialists, but that doesn't make them "at fault". The ones who were at fault in that situation were the European colonialists who were dispossessing the indigenous people of everything they ever had. It is no different with the Israeli leadership and Zionist leadership, and the Palestinians (Israel being the European colonialists who are dispossessing the indigenous people, and the Palestinians being the ones who are being dispossessed). When people commit acts of violence as a form of resistance against being dispossessed, that doesn't make them at fault. It's perfectly legitimate to resist being dispossessed. The ones at fault are the ones who are dispossessing the indigenous people of everything they ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:16 AM

CarolC, I love your terminology, but just to historically correct anything that happened to the North American Indians after 1776 in the US was done by Americans, who may, or who not have been "European Settlers" they were definitely not "European Colonialists" as Europe after completion of the Louisiana Land Purchase held no part of the USA.

The British generally held to their treaties with the indigenous population (The major source of contention between the Colonists and the Crown - it certainly had nothing to do with taxation, or oppression - they were the excuses given at the time), so did the Spaniards and the French. The only people with a vested interest in a land grab in the USofA were the settlers (Americans) themselves, not the Governments who sent them or allowed them to depart.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:23 AM

They were colonialists as far as the Native Americans were concerned, and they were of European origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:12 AM

I started following this thread because I noted in an early post, with surprise and not a little horror, that my friend from high school, David Brog, evolved into a right-wing political activist who now heads up the Christian Zionists. He was apparently developing his political philosophy while we were skipping French and sharing goat's cheese sandwiches. Who knew?

While CarolC's views may seem entrenched and one-sided, I think that's partly because she has to keep repeating herself to people who deliberately misinterpret her views.

It is not anti-Jew or anti-Semitic to dispute Zionism.I haven't seen any posts here where she appears to be attacking Israeli people. She questions (rightly, in my opinion) the Israeli state, its treatment of the Palestinian people and the bankrolling of the Israeli state by the US government.

I don't think she meant to imply a direct correllation between the lack of health care in America and the funding of Israel by the US government. But the point she makes illustrates something pretty fundamental about the priorities of the American administration. To continue to fund the Israeli state and the war in Iraq when people in America are denied access to basic health care is not just a scandal - it's criminal, IMHO.



John on the sunset coast said:
"Learned about half hour ago that a friend (middle 40s) of my wife's who lives in one of those European Universal Health Care paradises has been diagnosed with cancer requiring a total hysterectomy. It took several weeks to get the necessary tests, over three weeks to get the results, and it will be five to six weeks, minimum, before she can get the actual surgery.

I'll take our system with all its warts."

My mother, who lives in New Jersey, and I, who live in the UK, both went through something similar to this, at the same time, last summer. Mine turned out to be a scare - she had to have an operation on her cancer. But I can tell you, the UK system was second to none. the speed at which I was seen, the comprehensiveness of the care and support, knocked spots off the level and speed of care that my mum received. I was into the doctor, had a "fast-track" referral to the hospital, and had every test I needed - and the results - on the same day. My mum had to go to numerous places for her tests, and it took weeks for the tests and results to come through.

Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:14 AM

Eh? No CarolC as far as the Native American Indians were concerned they were the pale-faced enemy, I doubt it very much if they were interested in distinctions of origin, considering that they were being driven from their land and had much more pressing things to think about. But I guess if calling them "European Colonialists" eases your pangs of guilt regarding the sins of your forebears so be it, content yourself with that delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

Stringsinger - 10 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Writes:-
"And the Israeli government broke treaties with Palestine by a process of genocide."

Really Frank?
Well just to make sure that we are talking about the same place Frank, have a look at Palestine in 1920
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

That is what it looked like until the British, with the approval of The League Of Nations sub-divided it into the area known as Transjordan and the smaller area that became known as Palestine. Transjordan now known as Jordan was the Palestinian Arab Homeland in which Jews were not allowed to settle or own property. After the sub-division the smaller area known as Palestine was where the Palestinian Jewish Homeland was to be established. Please note Frank that everyone living in that smaller sector of the original Mandated Territory has the right to refer to themselves as "Palestinians", Jews as well as Arabs, Christians and others. The original intention was for Palestine to be a single sovereign state shared by both Jew and Arab but:

1920 – Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews – Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank?

1921 – Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews - Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank?

1929 - Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews – Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank?

1936 – The Great Arab Revolt and guess what Frank? Yep you're right, would you somehow credit it!!! - Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews – Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank? The revolt lasted until 1939 Frank, but this time there was a difference, the Jews organized and fought to defend themselves, they also aided the British in suppressing the revolt.

1937 – British Peel Commission recognize that the Arabs and the Jews living in Palestine will never "share" the land of Palestine and a two state solution is proposed, it is rejected out of hand by the Arabs, and rejected by the Jews but acknowledged as a starting point for future negotiations

1945 – Jewish resistance to British control over immigration and occupation

1947 – UN Propose a two state solution, have a look at what they proposed Frank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

Now tell me if I am mistaken Frank but isn't what the "Palestinians", you refer to, are fighting for and demanding now just somewhat less than what they were offered in November 1947?

Can you explain why they didn't take it then? Because once more they rejected it out of hand, the Jews of Palestine on the other hand accepted it and as the British Mandate drew to a close the Jews of Palestine declared the existence of the Sovereign State of Israel based upon the borders drawn up by the UN.

Let's take a look at populations Frank because you have accused the Israeli Government of "genocide" (I take it that you do know what the official definition of that term is – I have to ask as it is plain as a pikestaff that the UN do not):

1914 – Ottoman Empire – 60,000 Jews - 731,000 Arabs
1922 – British Mandate – 83,790 Jews – 668,258 Arabs
1931 – British Mandate – 174,606 Jews – 858,708 Arabs
1941 – British Mandate – 474,102 Jews – 1,111,398 Arabs
1950 – Israel + Arab Occupied Palestinian Territory – 1,203,000 Jews* – 1,172,100
* Increase in Jewish population largely caused by eviction of Jews from Arab countries through the middle-east and North Africa.
1960 - Israel + Arab Occupied Palestinian Territory – 1,911,300 Jews – 1,340,100 Arabs
1970 – Israel including Israeli occupied Territory – 2,582,000 Jews – 1,045,000 Arabs
1980 - Israel including Israeli occupied Territory – 3,282,700 Jews – 2,100,000 Arabs
1995 - Israel + Gaza + West Bank + Golan – 4,495,100 Jews – 3,506,900 Arabs
2005 - Israel + Gaza + Golan – 5,275,700 Jews – 5,139,100 Arabs

Correct me if I am missing something here Frank but in the case of "genocide" doesn't the population of the persecuted race go down? And Frank, if you want a really clear example of how your "genocide" works take a look at the statistics for Jerusalem:

In 1910 there were 45,000 Jews and 12,000 Arabs living in Jerusalem.
In 2005 there were 582,700 Jews and 240,900 Arabs living in Jerusalem.

Do the maths and you will see that the Arab population of the city has increased by a factor of 20 times, the Jewish population has increased by a factor of 13. So when did this "genocide" occur Frank?

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

Hamas excludes the possibility of long term reconciliation with Israel. "Since the Prophet Muhammad made a temporary hudna, or truce, with the Jews about 1,400 years ago, Hamas allows the idea. But no one in Hamas says he would make a peace treaty with Israel or permanently give up any part of Palestine.". Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University explains that "They (Hamas) talk of hudna, not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine."

Now all this "right-wing propaganda", Frank comes directly from Hamas's Charter, certainly not from, "the halls of the Pentagon and White House".

"The truth is that in spite of the rhetoric, neither Israel nor Palestine wants war." - Awfully encouraging that Frank, but for some reason, mainly the fact that the "Palestinian Arabs" have never lived up to, or kept to, their end of any agreement, I could see why your assertion could be viewed with some skepticism by the Israelis.

"What they want is parity, plain and simple. Teribus is talking rubbish." – Really Frank? All they want is parity? That was offered them in 1937, 1939, 1947, 1949, 1993, 1996 – rejected by the "Palestinian Arabs" every single time that is not rubbish Frank that is purely a matter of record. Why all of a sudden is what was unacceptable in 1947 become acceptable now?

"Hamas is a reactionary force, like so many, which has its back up against a wall. It is not an effective worker for peace at the present although Jimmy Carter has said that it would consider peaceful negotiations." – Oh yes Frank I remember that. Happened a bout a month ago, or so. There you had old "Peanut" Carter chattering away to the leadership of Hamas in Damascus and on arriving back in Israel declaring that Hamas would consider peace negotiations and were fully prepared to recognize Israel's right to exist. Unfortunately, I also remember that within four hours of that little message being delivered the self same leader of Hamas from Damascus stated quite categorically that Hamas would never recognize Israel's right to exist – Once more Frank all that is a matter of documented and well reported record. Don't shoot me I am only the messenger.

"The idea that one side is not culpable is ludicrous." – Quite agree with that Frank, all you have to do now is convince the likes of CarolC, Emma B, Guest Albert, autolycus and a whole host of one-post mushroom Guests of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:13 PM

Ruth Archer, as you actually mentioned me in your post I thought I might respond to you directly and in reverse order of your comments.

1- I am sorry you and your mother had medical problems; I'm glad you got great care, and just a scare. I hope your mother has had a good recovery, too; you didn't say. BTW, I was not referring to UK.

2- If CarolC did not mean that foreign aid keeps the US from having a good medical care system, then she shouldn't have conflated the two in the first place.

3- I don't approve of folks "deliberately misinterpreting her views" or anybody else's views, however, she has been the queen of that tactic over the years, even unto this thread. I have many times called her on the use of twisting comments and/or deliberate misinterpretation of my comments, even unto this thread. I invite you to do the research.

4- David Brog does not head Christian Zionists (which is like saying he heads Democrats or some other maxi-group). He heads a specific CZ organization, Christians United for Israel, which group claims to not share the more apocalyptic interpretation of Jew/Christian relations as other such groups. He claims he is a normative Jew. Until I learn differently, I will (warily) give him and them the benefit of the doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:54 PM

T.

You forgot to mention the corresponding figures for the Arab nations... (speaking of genocide)


Ignor Saudi Arabia and Jordan, though: Jews have never been allowed to settle there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:39 PM

Hi John on the Sunset Coast,

1 - she has had a long battle, but her recovery has been a good one. Thank you.

2 - I think the point she made is a valid one for the reasons I've said. It isn't a deliberate conflation to say that the government's first priority should be the welfare of its citizens, not financing foreign wars.

3 - that may be - I was only judging by what I've read in this thread.

4 - thanks for the clarification. I was disappointed to find, reading his biography, that David's politics have moved so far right of centre (but I suspect he'd be similarly disappointed that mine have moved so far left). He was a sweet, funny boy and a good friend. And his mother did make a great goat's cheese sandwich (which seemed very cosmopolitan to me at the age of 16!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

(Israel being the European colonialists who are dispossessing the indigenous people, and the Palestinians being the ones who are being dispossessed).

This is from Carol C.--the historian. Let me see, if I understand---no Jews there in biblical times, no Jews there in 18th, 19th or 20th century (until after WW2). I will have to clear any bookshelf I come across with History books on them and replace them with some items that, perhaps, our local historian can recommend because they show the non-habitation by Jews in the area.

Shame about that wrong turn in the desert---some got oil some got rocks--but did make the desert finally bloom.

As to misunderstanding--as another writer states---of the same "historian" not really directly linking medical care (isnurance) with U S spending on foreign interests---read her words. She made those statements---not I.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM

Colonialists are people who colonize other peoples land. So to those whose land is being colonized by others, the ones doing the colonizing are colonialists.


If I was allowed to respond directly to posters, I would thank someone for accurately summarizing my positions. Unfortunately, I cannot, but I hope that this person knows that I appreciate her efforts.


Moving on...

There were certainly Jews in the area that is now Israel and occupied Palestine prior to the arrival of the European Jews there. Which is why I am careful to frame the situation as indegenous people versus EUROPEAN colonialists. Even the indigenous Jews have experienced horrendous treatment from the European Jews who have taken over their area of origin.

As I've been saying for a very long time (and being entirely ignored when I say it), it's not about Jews versus non-Jews. It's about European colonialists versus indigenous people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:45 PM

My whole reason for mentioning the money being sent to Israel and the lack of health care for almost 50 billion people in the US was to voice my opinion about this state of affairs. I don't think its right for my hard earned tax money to be sent to Israel when I don't even have any access to health care.

This is not a conflation of the two. It is saying that I think that money should be spent here at home. It's my tax money, and I should have some say in how it is spent. We're not supposed to have taxation without representation here in this country, but the government of Israel has more say in how my hard earned tax money is spent than I do. This is taxation without representation, and it's not right. I feel the same way about the money being spent on the Iraq war, but the subject of this thread is Israel and not Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM

I need to correct my last post. I said 50 billion people but I meant 50 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:50 PM

"I'll take our system with all its warts" wrote John on the Sunset Coast.

This is drift - but isn't the health care system in Australia, where I believe the Sunset Coast is situated, relatively similar to the kind of health care system in most European countries, rather than to the system in the States?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:54 PM

Our historian, once again presents an interesting perspective. Europeans are now the root of all evil.

Surely, European hands are not clean---think Inquisition, think Crusades, think Empire building. However, we can find fault with all peoples---think Atilla and his hordes, think Japan and the rape of Nan-king (and, have I somehow forgotten Pearl Harbor?), and our dear religious friends of the Middle East who learned to fly planes but completed their ETA in Nirvana by killing over 3,000 innocent "European" and world citizens at the World Trade Center.

The fact is that fault goes to all peoples for following their own golden rule---instead of do unto others as they would do to you---it is --do unto others before they get to do you.   Sad.

Would that man's inhumanity to man was not the coin of the realm because of power hungry people in all nations and the blind following of the sheep-like multitudes with them---and that includes our Dubya.

It still won't get you medical insurance as a direct link to all the above.

As for the fellows who arrived in Nirvana on schedule---I have it on good authority the virgins had been fooling around whilst waiting their arrival and, boy, were they dissapointed. Planning, I hear, to learn to fly a cloud and try for a different Nirvana---one with like minded guys.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the genocide of the indigenous people of North and South America, for the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of Africans, as well as for enslaving many generations of their offspring, they are responsible for apartheid South Africa, for numerous and horrendous acts against the indigenous peoples in all of the other countries that were colonized in Africa as well as many other parts of the world.

On top of that, Europeans are entirely responsible for the Holocaust.

And the European colonialist model is still being used in Israel and occupied Palestine in the ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

This is not to say that Europeans are the only people who have done bad things to other human beings, but they certainly are at the top of the heap when it comes to the amount of aggression they have committed against their fellow human beings, and the amount of enslavement (both de facto as well as de jure) they have imposed on other peoples.


And I am entitled to have an opinion about how my tax money is spent, and nobody has a right to tell me I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:44 PM

Right you are---on how your tax money is spent. Fat lot of good it does you or I. In a perfect world it would work as you describe but, sadly, by your own comments you know it is not a perfect world.

Europeans seem to be your "whipping boy". Europeans and the Holocaust--which killed other Euoropeans. Europeans for all the evils of the world---oh, yes you did mention that there some other miscreants. But why define them.   Are any Middle Eastern people on your list, any Far Eastern ones?   

One of the musical groups I play on my show---Modern Man does a great routine about various ethnic groups--Irish, Jewish, etc; and start with saying---my folks were the Scandinavians---they were a motorcycle gang that used boats. Screwed everything up when the got to Greenland---- burnt and pillaged---they were told you pillage before you burn---damned stupid vikings. Well, they got there and said---..we gonna be real happy here---dark 6 month and colder than shit.

Truly--- a little humor is needed for these commentaries that, frankly, go nowehere except to inflate the ego of the poster. Yes---you can include if you like but, honestly, I am just tired of the pontification of the pompous posters of pap---how is that for alliteration?   Should I submit it to Jon Stewart or just keep doing this for free on my own program?


BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

My tax money is not financing the activities of the other "miscreants" in the Middle East. My tax money is financing the activities of the government of Israel. This not only gives me a right to speak out against what it is doing (with my money), but it gives me a responsibility to speak out about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:29 PM

"Screwed everything up when the got to Greenland---- burnt and pillaged---they were told you pillage before you burn---damned stupid vikings."


                   Looking at it logically, one would think they would rape the women, then pillage, and then burn. But I think it was the mini-ice age that really did them in. They were victims of climate change, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

" They were victims of climate change, it seems to me. "

But...

but...

St. Al told us that it was industrial Western society that causes climate change- how could that possibly have anything to do with the Vikings???


There are NO other causes for climate change- Thus saith the Word.


YOU are apostate and to be shunned!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

It must have been the coal fired plants the Mayans were operating in Central America that nobody knew about at the time!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:12 AM

Or all those auto-de-fes in Spain... Oh, that was later.


Maybe the Cretan Cruiseliners had something to do with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

More drift (opr rather responding to drift).

There are NO other causes for climate change- That's a distortion of anything that Al Gore or others have said.

It's a bit like saying that anyone who warns against the dangers of dropping matches in forests believes that the only cause of forest fires is people dropping matches, and drawing the conclusion that there is therefore no reason to take any notice of such warnings, and that dropping matches in forests doesn't involve any risk of starting a forest fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:05 AM

To claim that nothing EXCEPT reduction of greenhouse gases is required to STOP global warming is just as bed- Given the past ( history) and known flaws in (ever-changing) models, the emphasis should be in the preparation to survive the warming ( or cooling) NOT in trying to keep it steady-state. WE CANNOT CONTROL SOLAR FLUX!

No proponant of limiting greenhouse gases has pushed for ANY changes to adjust populations to global warming - ONLY the attempt to stop it.

Why are we not moving populations out of flood areas?

Why are we not using the warming to develop new areas of food production, as the old ones get warrmer?

Why are we not changing the crops in specific areas to allow for the effects of global warming?


We should be moving our sand-castles, NOT telling the tide to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:20 AM

Still drifting - "To claim that nothing EXCEPT reduction of greenhouse gases is required to STOP global warming". Does anyone ever say that? If they do they are stupid and ill; informed, but I don't think I've ever come across anyone who did say that.

If what we are doing is making things worse it makes sense to stop doing it, even if there are other factors outside our control which are also making things worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

Feel free, but it is being proposed as a SOLUTION to GW. I have yet to see any effort being given to the adjustment of populations/species to GW, JUST to reduction of greenhouse gases.

So, we get rid of all the transportation and food production, and THEN try to move people ( and animals) to new zones, and change the food production after we have reduced it by limiting carbon footptints?

Perhaps we should move people FIRST, THEN try to reduce to carbon footprint by limiting transportation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:54 AM

It's gonna end up being Israel's fault--climate change that is. Just you wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

CarolC - PM
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Now let me see what CarolC has come up with now, by way of denial, in order that she can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with her "Palestinian" brothers and sisters unburdened, in her own mind at least, by the transgressions of her ancestors:

1.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the genocide of the indigenous people of North and South America," – What all of them CarolC? All the indigenous people of North and South America were killed and wiped out by Europeans and people of European origin (euphemism for Americans)? Really? Because that is what genocide is, the murder of a whole group of people, especially a whole nation, race or religious group. The "Holocaust" of the Nazi era was attempted genocide, what happened in Rwanda was attempted genocide, what happened in Cambodia was attempted genocide, what the Government in Sudan and their Janjaweed allies are practicing/attempting in Darfur at the moment is genocide.

2.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of Africans, as well as for enslaving many generations of their offspring" - Well maybe according to Arthur Hailey in his best seller, "Roots", CarolC, but that was the stuff of fiction, not reality. The Slave Trade was extremely well documented by those Europeans and people of European origin (Americans – "A Yankee ship came down the river blow boys blow; Her masts and yards they shone like silver; Blow me bully-boys blow) who took part in it. They kidnapped millions of Africans did they CarolC? Any idea how they managed that? When? Where? In the 350 years of the trade there were only ever two instances where "Europeans and people of European origin" went into the hinterland of the West Coast of Africa to collect slaves, the rest of the time they picked them up from Barracoons on the coast. The greatest slavers in Africa CarolC were the Africans themselves aided and abetted by your pals, the Arabs, "Europeans and people of European origin" came a very poor third.

3.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for apartheid South Africa". Europeans most certainly were not, as apartheid only came to South Africa after 1948 when the Afrikaner National Party won the elections there. So this must be down to those classified by CarolC as "people of European origin", in this case the Afrikaners, formerly the Boers, formerly Dutch Settlers of the Cape Region who had arrived there in the 1650's, and who pre-dated the arrival in the area of the Zulu's by nearly 200 years.

4.        "On top of that, Europeans are entirely responsible for the Holocaust." – Really CarolC? Don't you find that just a little bit too much of a generalization? Europeans in general were responsible for the Holocaust. No, CarolC, one single political party, in one European country was responsible for the Holocaust and in general it was the vast majority of Europeans who rose up to combat it – Now what is the betting that somebody is going to comment that we couldn't have done it without the help of the Americans, which is true, and for which we are all extremely grateful. But note in this context they will be described as Americans who came to our aid, not "people of European origin".

5.         "Europeans and people of European origin", CarolC have admittedly done many bad things as have others, they have certainly made mistakes down through the centuries as have others, but what cannot be denied is that balanced against all of that, they have also brought much good to the lands they traveled to and traded with and to mankind in general.

"Ethnic Cleansing" of Palestinians? When their population has grown at a near equal rate to that of the Israelis since the 1960's. Pretty inefficient and ineffective ethnic cleansing don't you think CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

Genocide is not the murder of a "whole group" of people. At least not according to the people who name mass killings "genocide". Rwanda, for instance, or Darfur, or the Holocaust.

This is from the United Nations' Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide...

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Whether or not some of the people in Africa assisted the slave traders in doing their work, that does not mitigate the crimes that were committed by the slave traders themselves. When the slave traders took possession of human beings, regardless of whether or not they took them from their homes or from other Africans, they were still kidnapping them. They didn't have to take them from the other Africans. They could have set them free. They did not. They took them and placed them in bondage and sold them into slavery.


While the Zulu may have arrived in South Africa after the Europeans, the San and the Khoekhoe predate the Europeans by thousands of years, and non-Zulu Bantu speaking people predate the Europeans by many hundreds of years. Thulamela was occupied by these people in the 13th Century, and Mapungubwe in the 12th century.


There were no people responsible for the Holocaust who were not Europeans.


I notice that every time I make a point to correct someone's distortion of my words, people take that point and distort it as well.    The purpose in saying what I did about Europeans is to point out that the conflict is not between Jews and non-Jews, but between European colonialists and indigenous people. I'm really not interested in having a debate on who is the biggest bad guy.


Whether the ethnic cleansing is effective or not, it is still ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;


So, Hamas ( the present Palestinian government of Gaza) is engaged in Genocide, by this definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Hamas is intent on destroying a political entity, not a people. Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world. That's not genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:56 PM

I need some of that for the roses . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

According to the UN what is happening in Darfur is not "Genocide" CarolC - that's official, because if it was official the UN would have to act forcefully to punish and prevent wouldn't they?

Now if what is happening in darfur is not "Genocide", then what is happening in Gaza or the West Bank is definitely not "Genocide".

"Whether the ethnic cleansing is effective or not, it is still ethnic cleansing." - CarolC

Population Statistics:
1950 – 1,203,000 Jews – 1,172,100 Arabs
2005 - 5,275,700 Jews – 5,139,100 Arabs

"Ethnic cleansing" according to those figures CarolC is non-existent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

On the other hand, if the term "genocide" can be used in that way to describe what Hamas has in mind for Israel, then it can also be used to describe what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:00 PM

"Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world."

So, Israel is NOT engaged in genocide, since it does not attack Palestinians in other parts of the world.

Thank you for the clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

Ethnic cleansing is when people of a particular ethnic group are either killed or forced to leave their homes and areas of origin because of belonging to that ethnic group. All of the Palestinians who ended up in refugee camps were ethnically cleansed from their areas of origin. All of the Palestinians whose homes have been bulldozed to make room for Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have been ethnically cleansed. All of the Arab Israelis who have been forced out of their homes and whose land has been confiscated have been ethnically cleansed.

All of the Jewish-only settlements are being built on land that was ethnically cleansed of its indigenous population. These settlement are still expanding, which means that the ethnic cleansing is still ongoing. Eventually, when the settlements have expanded to include all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the ethnic cleansing in that area will be complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM

I have not said that Israel is engaged in genocide. I have said that is has engaged in cultural genocide, but that is a different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

. . . or the petunias.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

When people who are trying to defend the indefensible want to silence opposition, they almost always resort to the use of ridicule. It's all they've got to work with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

Correction: I meant to say ridicule and smear tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

All of the Jews who ended up immigrating to Israel from Arab nations were ethnically cleansed from their areas of origin. All of the Jews whose homes have been taken from them by the Arab League in 1948 ( on the West Bank) to make room for Moslim-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have been ethnically cleansed.

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, (Stated purpose of Hamas, per it's charter) in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group; ( suicide bombs, rockets, morters)
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(ditto)
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (Mass area bombardment by rockets )

Hamas is attempting genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

"Correction: I meant to say ridicule and smear tactics."

But, you merit ridicule for the rewriting of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM

'Cultural genocide' is more like what Canada is apologizing for to the First Peoples of Canada...trying to erase all traces of their culture whilst turning them into anglicized/francasized Canadians.

CarolC, even you cannot believe that Israel is involved in 'cultural genocide,' even if you believe Israel is involved in an actual genocide. Israel is not trying to make Palestinians into Jewish Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

'Cultural genocide'

From 1948 to 1967 please tell me what access Jews had to the Wailing Wall ( holiest site of Judaism)?


From 1967 to present please tell me what access Moslims ( Palestinians in particular) have had to the Dome of the Rock?


Who was trying to commit cultural genocide?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I hope I'm not disturbing anything too much here by going off-thread a bit, but the mention of the evangelicals etc., who are hoping for an armageddon makes me smile (in wry despair, not amusement) - seems to me these groups hope for an armageddon to come to 'cleanse' the world of all its undesireable elements, which never seems to include themselves of course. It reminds me of something I read once (I think in CS Lewis) about how the average High Church of England service-goer enjoys hearing a good hellfire-and-brimstone sermon as he bleieves it'll do his neighbour a world of good to hear it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

"an armageddon to come to 'cleanse' the world of all its undesireable elements, which never seems to include themselves of course"


Too true. it is never the ones hearing the sermon who are in danger, just the "unwashed masses"

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

BBruce: "So, Israel is NOT engaged in genocide, since it does not attack Palestinians in other parts of the world"

Come on, now, you know better than that. Hitler expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from Germany and occupied territories BEFORE the Nazi regime starting murdering thousands of them. You could hardly use that as an argument that he wasn't engaging in genocide, just because he let some go and had no beef with them once they weren't living in the Third Reich.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

Read CarolC's comment- that is what I am replying to. This is her definition:

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Hamas is intent on destroying a political entity, not a people. Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world. That's not genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

By HER standard, Israel is not engaged in genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

I forgot one tribe who were also in South Africa before the Europeans arived - the Lemba, who are Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

Israeli and Zionist leaders have actively suppressed the history of the Palestinian people, many of them even denying their existence altogether. That is a form of cultural genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/lemba.htm


Also...


Approximately 2,500 years ago, a group of Jews left Judea and settled in Yemen. The tribe was led by the house of Buba and we are told that this move was to facilitate trade. In Yemen they settled in a place and built a city called Senna 1. They were then known as the BaSenna (the people from Senna)

When conditions became unfavorable, and not being a historian, I can not give you exact details of what went wrong; but lets just say they could no longer call Yemen home.
The House of Hamisi took over the leadership and led the people across into Africa.
Once in Africa, the tribe split into 2 sections: One group settled in Ethiopia and the other group went further south along the East Coast. They settled in what today is known as Tanzania/ Kenya and built Senna 2. Here they prospered and increased in numbers.
I'm afraid the travel bug bit once again and they were on the move. A small group went and settled in Malawi and Kenya. Their descendants are still residing in these countries up to today and are generally known as Ba Mwenye (lords of the land)
The remaining group, under the leadership of the house of Bakali, moved on and settled in Mozambique. Here they built Senna 3. Even today, the BaSenna are found in Mozambique.

After many years, part of the tribe, now under the leadership of Seremane (which is the house I belong to); moved further south to settle in Chiramba in what is known today as Zimbabwe. They were known as the Ba-Lemba. Our people still live there up to today. Some of the tribe moved south again and eventually settled in South Africa ( Venda, Louis Trichadt, Pietersburg and Tzaneen). This story has been told to all Lemba children from the time they are able to comprehend. It is told so that we know where we come from, who we are and how we live. It is told and shall continue to be told/written so that future generations are not lost never to be found again.
Do I believe this: Oh Yeah! My father told me and, now there is scientific proof for the non believers: The lemba males posses the Priestly Cohanim gene on their Y chromosome (from work done by Jenkins and Spurgle -Wits University)

Old maps of the Holy Land have now revealed that there was a place called Lemba way back BCE

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

If Hamas is committing genocide by the criteria I posted, then by those criteria, so is the government of Israel.


Ridicule isn't necessary if one has a legitimate argument. It is only necessary when one hasn't got a legitimate argument. It is a substitute for a legitimate argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM

If Israel is committing genocide by the criteria I posted, then by those criteria, so is Hamas.


So, either Hamas is commiting genocide, or Israel is NOT.

Both sides have committed "ethnic cleansing" at various times. So did the Hindus and Moslims in Pakistan/India. Blame the British- they are the ones who set the situation up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

It still hasn't struck you that you rewrite history. Look up the word 'monomaniac'. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

BUT rememeber that

1. the Moslims did NOT accept the UN partition that the Jews did

2. The Jews invited the Moslims to stay- the Moslims ordered the Jews to leave.

3. The Palestinains are now asking for about what they would have had in 1948 if they had accepted the Partition.

4. The ARAB MOSLIM Homeland of Transjordan is to the Mandate Palestinian Moslims as Israel is to the Mandate Palestinian Jews- any "right of return is to THAT homeland, NOT to the Jewish Homeland of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:38 PM

Ok, I see what you are saying. But I (maybe wrongly) wonder what exactly is meant by 'destroying the State of Israel'? At first glance it seems to mean an act of genocide, as in killing the Jewish population who inhabit it. On the other hand, it could mean something else: that the Jewish population living there and the State of Israel can be seen as two seperate entities (hear me out!):

It has been pointed out already that Jews were living in the area down through the ages, which is one of the basis some people use to say there is a continuous historical claim for Jews to regard Palestine as a homeland. Now that being so, it appears that Jews lived alongside Palestinain arabs and otehr ethnic groups in relative peace, if not actual harmony, apart from occasional outbursts of ethnic conflict. I recently finished reading an excellent book on the Templars (by Piers Paul Read - one the best and least sensational account of the fighting Order). There were outbursts of ethnic conflict in the region down through the ages, even prior to the Crusades. He mentions how on at least one occasion Jews massacred Christians, then of course the Crusaders sacked Jerusalem and massacred Jews. But in more recent centuries there seems to have been less conflict. One reason for that may have been the firm fist of the Ottoman empire (much like Tito holding things together in Yugoslavia) until the Otttomans went into decline.

Therefore it does not seem, historically, that the actual presence of Jews in the region was considered to be a problem by the Palestinian arabs who were sharing the territory with them. The conflict seems to have arisen mainly when zionists were starting to accomplish their objective of creating a geographical territory in the region which was intended to be dominated by Jews (in the sense that it was to be a Jewish homeland, and therefore with an assumed majority Jewish population making laws in a majority Jewish parliament for the benefit of a majority Jewish population).

Since immigration into what was to become Israel was already well underway by the time the state of Israel came into being in the 1940s, the sudden influx of immigrants was obviously going to raise tensions. Israel is not unique in this regard, we have witnessed similar tensions in almsot any European country that has seen periods of large-scale immigration (eg, Britain in the 60s and 70s). The Palestinian arabs had a lot culturally in common with the Jews living in the region in terms of lifestyle etc., but the European and Russian Jews arriving were a different proposition: they brought very different cultural expectations etc., and many brought the memory of the holocaust which not unnaturally left them with a 'siege mentality'. Moreover among their number were many religious zealots who believed in their God-given right to dominate whichever other ethnic groups already lived there (as is echoed in the pages of the Old Testament / Torah).

There was another big difference compared to the European experience of immigration: immigrants from former UK colonies in teh 60s and 70s were expected to get on their bike' find a job and buy or rent themselves somewhere to live (once they got past the 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish' signs). There was no quetsion of them arriving and turning English natives out of their homes or throwing them off their land to live as their 'superiors' with an immigrant government approval. On the other hand, this is what happened as Israel, as we know. Conflict was inevitable since the Jewish immigrants coming from Europe and Russia were given the right to throw Palestinians out of their homes, shops and farms and take up residence in their place.

Thus while we can say that Jews and Palestinian arabs had managed to live alongside each other RELATIVELY peacefully until the 20th century, the creation of the state of Israel was altogether a different experience. It brought with it a huge influx of culturall very different Jews from those that had traditionally inhabited the region; the dispossesion of Palestinians, their expulsion; and the relegation of those that remained into a kind of second class citizen within their own homeland. I don't think you need to be a genius to work out what the problem is there.

Now it may be that behind the hyperbole, when Hamas talk about the 'state of Israel being wiped off the map' what is meant is undoing this political entity / state and perhaps replacing it with something more equitable. If I may refer to another precedent: the Civil Rights marchers of 1960s Northern Ireland were not seeking independence so much as just to be treated at least as equal citizens of the UK, of which the North was supposed to be a part. Instead they were met by the batons, bricks and baseball bats of a Protestant / unionist majority who believed in their own God-given supremacy to lord it over the other half of the population and refused to give even the steam off their piss to the civil rights crowd, and Catholics in general. The result of course was 35 years of what was effectively civil war and some 3,500 dead. Nowadays the Northern State as a geographical entity still exists (though one wonders for how much longer) but the nature of that state has started to move towards the more equitable inclusive society it should have been. Israel seems a bit of a 'Northern Ireland for slow learners'

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:43 PM

"since the Jewish immigrants coming from Europe and Russia were given the right to throw Palestinians out of their homes, shops and farms and take up residence in their place. "


Not according to the law. There are PUBLIC lands that were bought by the Jewish Agency, and those are rented ( NOT sold) to Jews.


Where does your statement come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:55 PM

Well from various sources, including an interview with a former member of the IDF who explained how he'd been out on patrol and had heard odd noises coming from a building in the middle of the night. On investiagting he and his colleague discovered that a Jewish man had knocked a hole with a sledgehammer into the shop of his Palestinian arab neighbour, thereby extending his (the Jew's) living room. He then proceeded to throw the Pal' arabs possessions and stock out on the road and change the locks on the shop door. Mission accomplished, he went off to bed. No sanctions were taken against him. Whatever may be written in law is of little use if not enforced or given unofficial / official approval.

This sort of thing is ongoing in the West bank of course, and it happened in places like Jaffa and Deir Yasin back in the early days of the Israeli state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM

I would not describe what either Hamas or Israel are doing as genocide. But if someone wants to characterize what Hamas is doing as genocide, then by the standards they are using, Israel is also guilty of genocide.


History is written by the victor. That doesn't make it true. When the actual events have been falsified in the account of history written by the victor, it is necessary to correct that falsification.

The Israeli and Zionist leaderships have written a falsified version of events. The fact that it was falsified has been proven by declassified Israeli government documents as well as the personal accounts and autobiographies of Israeli and Zionist leaders, and accounts given by people serving the UN and members of the government of the US. It is time for this falsified version of events to be corrected. The version being promoted by the government of Israel and the Zionist leadership is a horrendous libel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

"The version being promoted by the government of Palestine and the Palestinian leadership is a horrendous libel."


Works equally well that way, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:24 PM

Anyway, the Palestinian problem is a religious problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:39 PM

That's right, so if rational thinking people simply banded together to stamp out the scourge of religion, that would be the end of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM

How will 729 people worldwide accomplish that task?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM

So, since this discussion has gone around more times than a carousel on a busy day at Coney Island does anyone honestly believe it will change anything in any form whatsoever---or change the minds of anyone on this venue.

By the way---my earlier quote from Modern Man re: their (comic) song about ethnic groups and included the VIkings was a stab at humor---humour for our friends on the other side of that lovely pond--who knew that within 5 or 6 comments it actually turned into a discussion of global warming. Wow---another carousel ---this one went of its bearings and sailed out of the park.


BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:39 PM

Hot air = Global warming: it all fits together for me:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

That was good, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:06 PM

The only way "the Palestinian problem" (how is it that people who would be horrified by the use of a term like "the Jewish problem" are able to use a term like "the Palestinian problem" without a second thought) has anything to do with religion is the extent to which those among the European Jews in Israel and occupied Palestine who are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and subjecting them to apartheid in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are doing it for religious reasons.


I do think that these discussions make a difference. Not only in the Mudcat, but in the larger context as well. As I have said before, I see an enormous difference in public perception of this issue since I first started paying close attention to it in 2002. Nevertheless, I don't initiate them. I only post to them when they are initiated by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:23 PM

I am not familiar with whatever version of events is being promoted by the government of Palestine and the Palestinian leadership. If there even is such a thing, I suspect that it is not the same for Fatah as it is for Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:23 PM

"The Avalon Project at Yale Law School
Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement"

The sentence I wrote [the Palestinian problem is a religious problem] was from that, Carol. Your scholarship is once again wonderful. Nice try at innuendo. As usual, you screwed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:29 PM

Hamas doesn't equal "the Palestinians". Nor are all Palestinians Muslims. The majority are not members of Hamas, and there are also secular and Christian Palestinians. However, what is perceived as the "problem" with the Palestinians is their resistance to being ethnically cleansed and subjected to apartheid. All categories of Palestinians (Christian, Muslim, and secular) are participating in this struggle, and it is not a religious struggle.

It is not a religious issue for "the Palestinians". It may be a religious issue for some Palestinians, but that is not what was said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:35 PM

People have to tire of shooting themselves in the foot, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:43 PM

I wouldn't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:52 PM

Did Yasser Arafat speak for Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

He spoke for some of them, but certainly not all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:29 PM

does anyone speak for all people they allegedly represent?

Come on----I think we can agree that while there is fault all over the world there has been more good done in the Middle East since the statehood of Israel became a fact than before that day. Should thngs be better---sure. Yet--past history shows that there is more freedom for all the people there than before the creation of that state.

As to Palestinians. I won't enter into that again since we all know what happened prior to the creation of the state of Israel and the riots and killings years before that.

I think another poster put it best---access to the holy sites---Western Wall and DOme of The Rock---let us understand that symbolism is important in that area and let us also note who allowed access (Israelis ---not Jews) and who did not prior to the state of Israel.

And the carousel goes on for a few more rounds leading, as always, no where. Save, of course, for the reaffirmation of the justness of the opinions (not facts) of our local historian.

BH

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 10:58 PM

I definitely cannot agree that more good has been done since the establishment of the State of Israel than before that day. I think much good can be done, if Israel will abandon its expansionist policies, but the establishment of the State of Israel has been the cause of an immense amount of suffering for millions of people.

The riots were no different than the violence committed by Native Americans against settlers in North America, and Blacks against Whites in South Africa. It was the reaction of people to the fact that they were being displaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:56 AM

A good deal of the problem is the refusal to see the Jews of Israel as Palestinians, too.

To get into the Indian/Colonist analogy, it's as if the Indians after over a thousand years reclaimed a portion of their original lands, displacing the descendants of Colonists.

The blind refusal to see the Israelis as Jewish Palestinians of an earlier vintage leads to the perception of them as occupiers when in fact they displaced the descendants of squatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM

"To get into the Indian/Colonist analogy, it's as if the Indians after over a thousand years reclaimed a portion of their original lands, displacing the descendants of Colonists."


                  That's kind of where the Nation of Aztlan comes from:

                               http://www.aztlan.net/

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:46 AM

Robomatic: "
A good deal of the problem is the refusal to see the Jews of Israel as Palestinians, too.

To get into the Indian/Colonist analogy, it's as if the Indians after over a thousand years reclaimed a portion of their original lands, displacing the descendants of Colonists.

The blind refusal to see the Israelis as Jewish Palestinians of an earlier vintage leads to the perception of them as occupiers when in fact they displaced the descendants of squatters."

That's an interesting thought. I mentioned earlier that there were Jews living in Palestine prior to the formation of the Israeli state. These particular Jews had been living in the area for centuries or longer. But there are other Jews living in Israel who have no such connection with Palestine. They, and their ancestors, had been living elsewhere in the world (in places such as Europe) for hundreds if not thousands of years. It can hardly be said they have some kind of ancestral 'squatters' rights'. They would indeed be a bit like Indians claiming back their lands after not one, but two thousand years.

Present day Indians might indeed have a better claim to their ancestral lands - 1) they have been displaced relatively recently, in some cases only a little over a hundred years 9as opposed to thousands, as in the case of European and Russian Jews) and 2) their title to their land was guaranteed to them in a series of treaties with pale faces, which the pale faces subsequently broke when and how they felt like it. For example, the Black Hills and the lands around were guaranteed to the Sioux for a s long as the sun shines and the rivers flow. Obviosuly the sun stopped shining a few dozen years later when first gold and later uranium were found there.

In the case of the Palestinian arabs, things are altogether different. Those who fled in the Nakba, or were driven out, took the title deeds of their property with them, and some even their house keys. That was almost exactly sixty years ago (Israel celebrates this fact this year) and so well within living memory of the displaced Palestinians. There are still some alive today who fled at that time. It is not a question of thousands of years as in the case of the European Jews. Yet these refugees are not being allowed back. The reason is as obvious as it is simple: Jewish Israelis now occupy the housesd farms and shops of these refugees, and for them to return and claim what is legally theirs would mean displacing these latter day colonists.

That is why there is a 'problem' in Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

While there were Jews living in what is now Israel and Palestine all that long while ago (some of whom left the area and went elsewhere), it is certainly not true to say that Jews were the first people who lived there. The people whom the government of Israel is expelling are the descendants of the original people to live in that area. They have the older claim. Jews ruled the area for a few hundred years, and then some of them left. The non-Jewish indigenous people, and the descendants of the Jews who didn't leave have the greater claim to the land. The descendants of the Jews who left do not have the greater claim to the land, and they have no right to expel or displace the descendants of the non-Jews who were there originally and who never left. Nor do they have a right to come back to the land of the Jews who never left, create political institutions against the will of those indigenous Jews, and then proceed to discriminate against those indigenous Jews. Which is what was done.

This is a typically European supremacist way of doing things, but it has no legitimacy whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM

Creative history. How novel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:03 PM

Would that include the Jews of Hebron CarolC, who had lived there quite peacefully for at least 800 years, but were murdered and driven from their homes by Arabs in 1929? Do they have a right of return? Are the Arabs going to compensate them? their descendents? people who worked for them for some period in the two years before they were driven out? While we are on about those people how about the estimated 820,000 Jews deported from Arab lands after having all their goods and property confiscated, anything to say about them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:29 PM

There's nothing creative about it. It's what happened.


All of the indigenous Jews who were displaced should be able to return to their homes as should all of the non-Jewish Palestinians who were displaced. Of course, the ones who return to Hebron should be living as Jewish Palestinians along with the other Palestinians, and not as Israelis in apartheid, Jewish-only settlements.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:47 AM

1937, 1947, 1949, that makes three times that the Palestinian Arabs were offered and rejected precisely what are fighting for now. 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 four times instead they have opted for war as a solution, each time they have lost. Throughout the British Mandate era (1920, 1921, 1929, 1936-1939, 1947) the Arabs of Palestine proved conclusively that they were incapable of living peacefully and co-existing with the Jewish population of a unified Palestinian state.

People, nations, races, religious or political groups do not by right own anything on this earth other than by nature of what they can control, purchase or hold. If right to land or resource is put to the test of war, the side that loses can only expect to pay a price, especially if they are the ones who opted to fight when a perfectly workable compromise was proposed beforehand. A great line from "Crocodile Dundee" something to the effect of - getting worked up about who owns what on earth is as ridiculous as two fleas fighting about who owns the dog.

By the bye it is a precondition set by the United Nations that Israel must be granted "Secure Borders", nothing to do with the Protocols of Zion or the Elders of Zion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:19 PM

Teribus mentioned Hebron in an above posting.....that is the town where an armed Zionist walked into a mosque and shot dead dozens of Palestinian worshippers.
This crazed mass killer is now regarded as some kind of hero by many of the present day thugs, shooters and club wielding fanatics that make up the Zionist settler population on the illegally occupied West Bank.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM

Little bit of fact, little bit of fiction, little bit of opinion. GREAT post, Hugo.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM

"crazed mass killer is now regarded as some kind of hero by many of the present day thugs"

The 1994 act was done by a single gunman armed with one gun and 140 rounds. The 1929 massacre by Arabs was an act of genocide and was done to drive all Jews from the city of Hebron. The 1994 atrocity was condemned by all by 3.8% of Israeli Jews. In the 1929 atrocity at least 60 Jews were killed and the vast majority of Moslems still think is was a great day for Islam. The two atrocious events, and the reactions to them, are not equal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I'm sure the "Arabs" would still prefer to have all of what they originally lost. But at this point they understand that this is not possible and they are willing to compromise for less than 40 percent of what they originally had. They are willing to compromise - the government of Israel is not.

Since shortly after World War II it has been illegal under international law to take land by conquest. It is illegal under international law as well as the Geneva Convention and the UN Charter to take land by conquest. Taking land by conquest is a war crime under international law. If people are going to be using the UN as their validation, they need to make sure they aren't doing so selectively, otherwise they have no validity at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

By the way, as I have pointed out many times before, the "Arabs" did not opt for war. The Arabs in every case except for 1972 were in the defensive posture, and in 1972 they were taking back land that had been taken from them illegally by conquest.

Every single military action that the government of Israel has engaged in, with the exception of 1972, was for the purpose of taking land from its neighbors, and the settlements are for the purpose of taking land. When people resort to using the defense (as people invariably do when all of their other arguments are shot down), that Israel took the land by conquest so that makes it ok, they are essentially admitting that it's for the purpose of taking land that Israel fights with its neighbors, and they are attempting to justify this practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 05:52 PM

I do believe that the spin on the carousel has now broken the sonic barrier.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:48 PM

Nickhere wrote:

In the case of the Palestinian arabs, things are altogether different. Those who fled in the Nakba, or were driven out, took the title deeds of their property with them, and some even their house keys. That was almost exactly sixty years ago (Israel celebrates this fact this year) and so well within living memory of the displaced Palestinians.

CarolC then wrote:
The people whom the government of Israel is expelling are the descendants of the original people to live in that area. They have the older claim. Jews ruled the area for a few hundred years, and then some of them left.

So can we put these together and posit the question: "If they are the descendants of the original people, then from whom did they procure these 'title deeds'"?

The answer is that the prior claims arguments of both the above are without merit. Title deeds of even Turkish origin are like the permission of one house breaker to another. If one wants to selectively pick an original inhabitant, one of course may, and I'm allowed to selectively pick the one who wrote down thousands of years ago "If I forget thee Oh Jerusalem, may my right hand wither..."

And again I make the point that the failure to acknowledge Jews as Palestinians by right has led to much of this blundering about in violence on the part of the Arabs and their co-opts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:31 PM

Teribus, that was a most interesting post "People, nations, races, religious or political groups do not by right own anything on this earth other than by nature of what they can control, purchase or hold"

What I understand you are saying is 1) you think that the idea of Jews having some historical claim to Palestine because they originated from the area is not a valid argument and 2) you believe 'might is right'

The Palestinian Arabs are not anywhere near as well-armed, well-funded or well-supported as Israeli Jews, and therefore the Palestinians are wrong.

Well, Ok, that's very honest of you, I can't argue with that.

Pdq:

So, the killing of Muslims at Hebron was "The 1994 act" while what happened in 1929 was "an atrocity". Interesting.
Also, usually when anyone posts anything here even remotely critical of Israeli actions or policies they are innundated with demands for proof, dates, names, places etc., so I'm not sure what to make of the sweeping generalisation "the vast majority of Moslems still think is [Hebron 1929] was a great day for Islam"
I presume you also know that the vast majority of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:34 PM

Hamas Charter. Anyone actually read it? If not, please do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:44 PM

Robomatic, about those title deeds. I'm fairly sure actual paper title deeds are a relatively recent invention. Prior to that, ownership was mainly done through oral agreement (you'll find many examples of that in the Old Testament, for instance). There were ways of marking out boundaries, even simply using natural landmarks. But in recent centuries some more official documentation was probably required. I don't know that the Ottoman Empire was a housebreaker as such - the Seljuks had established a kingdom in the region as far back as the late 12th or 13th century, and various Muslim tribes (eg. the one under Sal-ad-Din) had held power there for one or two hundred before that.

In one sense, none of us are entitled to anything, if we were to take the Christian message to heart everything would be held in common for the good of all humanity. As Marx said, private property is theft.

The second part of your post "Title deeds ... may my right hand wither..." echoes Teribus' post and suggests you also believe 'might is right' In other words, legal title deeds mean nothing, since so many people have passed through the region, a kind of chicken-and-egg conundrum. The land simply belongs to whoever can take it and hold it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM

Peace, re Hamas Charter. Where can I find it? Is there a site / link?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:05 PM

Robomatic, re "the failure to acknowledge Jews as Palestinians"

I'm not sure whose failure you ahve in mind, but I did make the point a few posts back that Jews had been living in the area for ages and lived in relative peace with their other semitic neighbours (Palestinian Arabs) - UNTIL the zionist project of an Israeli state began to take shape. I venture to suggest that Palestinian Arabs had accepted Palestinian Jews as their neighbours (even if they had different religions and didn't intermarry much etc.,) but the creation of Israel brought a huge influx of immigration into the region, especially from Europe, America and Russia. These Jewish immigrants were NOT Palestinian anymore than I am French though my more recent ancestors are supposed to have come from France or indeed African just because my distant ancestors were supposed to have come from the Rift Valley.

They were European, Amercian and Russian, whatever about their Jewish religion, and they brought a different cultural outlook with them, with a different outlook on what kind of political entity the region would be: one with Israeli Jews as the primary citizens and all others as secondary citizens. That, plus the pressure on living space brought about by the influx of numbers, and the manner in which this problem was 'resolved', was bound to lead to conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:03 PM

"So, the killing of Muslims at Hebron was 'The 1994 act' while what happened in 1929 was 'an atrocity'. Interesting."--Nickhere

Let's have some understanding here. Yes, The killings of Muslims at prayer in 1994 was an act of terror by the lone gunman, Baruch Goldstein, a member of the outlawed Kach Party. He, in turn, was killed by survivors of the massacre; I think justice was done.

His singlular action is similar to the to scores, if not hundreds, of Palestinian suicide bombers of Israelis and foreigners inside Israel.
The difference is that the Israeli government apologized to the wounded victims, and the murdered victims' families. And, too, the Israeli government paid reparations to said victims. Cohen is anathema to Israelis, save for a minute group of Kahanists. On the other hand, Palestinian murderers are 'heroes' whose families are often paid bounties by Muslim groups for the murderous act.

Now how does the 1929 Hebron massacre differ? It was not the act of a single person; it was urged and agitated for by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Thousands of Arabs participated in the killings and riots. Some Arab families did protect some Jews from harm--a blessing on them. When it was over, the surviving Jewish families were forced to relocate to Jerusalem; Hebron was then Judenfrei for nearly forty years.

Even Nickhere, I think, can see a difference in action, degree and response to Hebron 1929 and Hebron 1994.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:20 PM

Nickhere, you asked for a link to the Hamas Charter. Here it is.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

[maybe somebody can clicky it for you, or you can paste it into your browsers address bar]

The most cogent sections, perhaps, are Part III, Articles 11-15, and Part IV, Articles 27 & 28. There, I've done your research for you. Go forth, read, and learn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:22 PM

Nickhere:

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I do not mean to denigrate the folk living in then Palestine who lost their homes because, frankly, they ended up living in a war zone and they quite sensibly fled it. And as you say the Ottoman Empire, which was established by force of arms (as are all empires) lasted for quite some time. When it lost, it lost big-time, and Great Britian took on that part of the world.

I was attempting to make the following point: I think a lot of people come to these arguments pre-ordained, and typically they will not compare apples with apples, oranges with oranges. They will take the traditional 'illegal occupation' argument against the 'right of conquest' when it suits. Few nations throughout history either were created or expanded by negotiation, pursuasion, or purchase. (One recent exception seems to be The Slovak Republic). The United Nations attempted to negotiate a partitian plan, I think against the odds, and it did not work out. Force of arms prevailed, and it was by no means a sure thing. The Israel Independence war of '48 was a hard won conquest. I had a Hebrew teacher who lost her sister in the battle for Jerusalem.

Populations were uprooted, Jews from Arab countries were displaced in addition to the severe European Jewish displacements post-war. Arabs who'd been living in the former Palestinain were uprooted. Many of them and their descendants now live settled lives in Jordan. Others live encamped in the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon. There has always been a militant sense of re-possession and re-occupation amongst them. This has been nurtured in the education they have given their children, once done with a 'communist cast', in the wake of later times, it has shifted to an Islamic cast. All in the service in recovering their perceived losses.

If one looks at the overall case symmetrically, one acknowledges that both sides have rights, both sides have losses. I take the view that the Israeli Jews have quite literally nowhere else to go. They have within their society not only a great variety of once displaced Jews from Europe, as you mentioned, but a substantial number of Muslim and Christian Arabs and Druze, and even some Bosnians from the late unpleasantness in Yugoslavia. The Arab nations around Israel have attempted to maintain the refugee Palestinians in a stateless life, purely as a means of threatening Israel. For all intents and purposes Jordan is already a Palestinian state within a state, Lebanon has suffered greatly at the hands of Syria with Palestinians in the mix, and Egypt, while making official peace with Israel, has kept a tight seal on Gaza. The only state that has tried to negotiate a way out is Israel, but because Israel has refused to negotiate her own existence away, this has not yet got anywhere.

If there were an overall fairness, then any negotiator who insisted on recompense for displaced Arabs would also look for recompense for displaced Jews. This is conveniently overlooked in so many of the anti-Israel arguments that Israel and her partisans have very little motivation to pursue or even argue into such lopsided tactics.

Even worse is the comparison of Israelis to Nazis. Put most bluntly, the Jews moving to Israel took land, land they needed in order to live, and land they have an arguable right to. They did not kill beyond the actual wars, and they killed enemies. There are a ton of alleged Palestinians around to lay claim to well, whatever they want. The Nazis took lives, every Jewish life they could. Almost all civilian lives, noncombatants lives. Their existence was their crime. The property, possessions, lands, were de-facto expropriated, after the Nazis had eliminated the owners. That this has to even been made clear is rather hideous. Those who make equivalences between Israel and the Nazis are giving way to an intellectual laziness in order to make a cheap point, but again, they make it not worthwhile to argue, because they demean the argument itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:23 PM

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM

Thank you,Bobad, for making the clicky thing; I tested it and it works.
So Nickhere, who requested it, Guest Hugo, Guest Zack, CarolC, and others who blame Israel first, last and always can see the amity [being ironic here folks] that is the official Hamas position.

While there are some individuals or groups that on the Jewish side who hold similar views vis-a-vis a Palestinian state, I know of no official Israeli document espousing that position...and certainly not since the Clinton, Arafat, Rabin summit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

To Nickhere,
The Holocaust was conducted against the Jewish people by European nazis.It had nothing to do with the Palestinian people who had lived alongside their Jewish Palestinian neighbours in relative peace for centuries.
The Zionista have conducted massive crimes against the Palestinians that have been going on for decades.They have tried to smash the very notion that the Palestinians are an indiginous people who have lived on their land for centuries if not thousands of years.The Zionists tried to convince the world that it was an "empty land" somehow ordained by the word of God for a chosen few.
Actually what happened was ethnic cleansing on a grand scale,mass murder,occupation,land grab, the demolion of thousands of Palestinian homes and the destruction of their towns, farms,orchards and villages, illegal armed colonies on the West Bank, the mass imprisonment of Palestinian males, hundreds of checkpoints,the building of a monstrous apartheid wall on Palestinian land, the theiving of Palestinian property by guntotin' armed zionists thugs, the closure of Palestinian schools and colleges, the bantustanisation of Palestinian land, the building of hundreds of checkpoints and roadblocks that torment daily Palestinian life,the siege and destruction of Gaza,the death squads that kill at will,the killing this week of a new born baby by a tank shell,the denial of urgent medical treatment to seriously ill patients in Gaza which has led to the deaths of dozens,the pauperisation of the Palestinian people,the destruction of the Gaza power plant, the collapse of the water supply and the creation of sewage lakes in that beseiged city and the countless other petty and not so petty acts of daily humiliation intended to break the Palestinians.
Israel is not a nazi state but it is a deeply oppressive , thuggish and militaristic one.....and it is a state with a deeply damaged present and a dead end future....
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:19 PM

Robomatic, I accept of that land has changed hands over the centuries through conquest and so on. The point is of course that we are trying always to 'improve ourselves' so to speak, to find more humane ways of doing things and settling our differences. We (especially in the West) like to think of ourselves as being a bit more moral and rational than our ancestors, though that is very debateable.

For this reason we see certain steps taken to limit our wickedness, such as the Geneva convention on treatment of POWs, the banning of certain weapons of war and so on. These are just drops in the ocean of our wickedness of course, since not only do many nations find ways to circumvent these, but most wars seem to end up in one point anyway - win, however you do it, and rules go out the window.

Actually 'rules of war' have existed in the past, such as notions of chivalry. It was one of the reasons the French kept losing in the Hundred Years' War. The French knights refused to let their archers and footsloggers soften up the English first as it was considered very un-knightly to hang back. So they usually charged - straight into a hail of arrows and were mown down like new hay. They were after personal glory, whereas the English sensibly realised the object was to win.

But a further difference has occured in more recent years, under the auspices of the UN. Since the end of WW2 it has been a crime, for example, to seize land by conquest or to commit genocide. For example, the crime of genocide was not recognised as such prior to that though it certainly existed as a fact. [One of the first genocides of the 20th century was by Turks against at least 1 million maybe more Armenians. The Turks refuse to acknowledge it as such and ironically Israel (an ally of Turkey) is one of Turkey's staunchest defenders of the 'No-Armenian holocaust' claim].

The difference for Israel is that their particular conquest of land for living space is occuring at a time when such actions are deemed internationally to be a crime. Israel has in fact been censured by the UN for this on several occasions.

On a separate moral aspect, the frequency of an action historically is of course no moral justification in itself. Jews arriving in Palestine of course needed somewhere to live, but that didn't give them the right to seize the property of the people who were already living there for their own use. Nor did the anyone have the right to tell them they could take that property insofar as we accept the concept of private property. Obviously we do, or the actions of the nazis in seizing Jewish property would be acceptable and there would be no cases of stolen art etc., being returned to descendants of the robbed. [Legal title deeds and documents of ownership held be Jews of course play a major role in this repatriation of stolen goods, so there is a precedent for Palestinian Arabs to claim what is theirs by right of title deed also].

"Put most bluntly, the Jews moving to Israel took land, land they needed in order to live, and land they have an arguable right to. They did not kill beyond the actual wars, and they killed enemies"

I do have a bit of difficulty with this sentence as it seems to suggest Jews 'only killed when they had to'! I'm sure you can immediately see how it could be applied any number of ways to justify just about any side murdering anyone else on the other side in order to find a place to live and a livelihood. Palestinian Arabs could easily take that argument and make it their own. Plus 'war' is a vague term. If group A attacks group B to take what they have and group B defends themselves, we have a war. That would not make group A's attack morally acceptable.
   I'm glad to hear Jews only killed their 'enemies' as I would be worried if they killed their friends also!!

Yes, I know the Nazis were murdering so-and-sos. True, only some Jews they killed were combatants. They encountered Jews in the armies of Poland, the US and Russia and of course during the Warsaw Uprising. That last especially, proves a point: simply being armed and a combatant doesn't mean you don't have a just cause, and that somehow you are more deserving of death.

But this sentence "Almost all civilian lives, noncombatants lives. Their existence was their crime. The property, possessions, lands, were de-facto expropriated" could just as well apply today to Palestinian Arabs.

Finally, I quite agree with you on the issue of compensating Jews who were displaced since 1947. Fair is fair, and if Palestinian Arabs should receive compensation or be allowed return to their homes, so of course should Jews who fled Jordan, Iraq or wherever (though I doubt many will want to return to Iraq just now, but that's not their fault).

But further on compensation, I know of no other group of victims in history that have received so much compensation for their woes, both collectively and individually: a country and trillions of dollars. If we were to be fair about it, trillions should be paid to the various Native American Tribes (including those in South America) for the losses they have incurred over centuries of colonisation, Africans for slavery (notwithstanding the complicity of some Africans themselves in same) and of course, the IRISH!! We should get paid something for the natural resources stolen by England - whole forests of oak, gold and copper mined and taken away, the million dead in the potato famine, the money squeezed out of the peasants by absentee landlords so they could get gout with their lifestyles of excess.

How do we quantify misery? How do we put a price tag on suffering? On the loss of the people you love? I don't think we can, we can only work towards a better society and try and ensure these things happen less, and less often. Sometimes that has to mean censuring people, leaders and countries even when we'd prefer not to. We try to undo the past damage and right wrongs as far as we are able. That is part of the rationale behind compenstaing Jews for the holocaust. Is it too much to ask that Palestinian Arabs be treated fairly in the same way, or are they somehow less human? I think before God we are all the same [yes, I know about Israel being the chosen people, but since the time of Jesus that has been extended to the gentiles as well, so it no longer washes]

Sorry about the length of that post. I'm taking coures at present on how to write short posts, but it's not rubbing off yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM

John On Sunset Coast - I understand that you are saying that the 1994 and 1929 cases need to be compared on the basis of numbers, support within the community and so on. Yet those kind of tit-for-tat comparisons could go on endlessly without much being achieved by anyone, just as tit-for-tat killings go on in real life and don't seem to make things any better for anyone.

But that still does not detract from what I was saying. So, do you, for example, think the killing of the Muslims at the Hebron mosque was an atrocity / an outrage or similar; or simply 'an act'?

As you guessed, the question is of course rhetorical since it'd be nonsense to describe it as anything other than something equivalent to an outrage or an atrocity. The description of it as 'an action' is telling, as the label carries no judgement. Brushing my teeth, eating my dinner, dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the 'killing' (to use a more neutral term than 'murder') of Jews by Arabs in 1929 are all 'actions' but obviously this neutral term does nothing to address the moral values and implications of these actions, which is the basic question here.

Describing what happened in 1994 as 'an action' tells me that the speaker / writer does not see the killing of these human beings by a fellow human being as something reprehensible enough to merit a more value-laden label. He is not totally neutral in his judgements (or both 1929 and 1994 would be 'actions') but he is less outraged by, or more sympathetic to, the killing of some human beings by other particular human beings.

I'd still be interested to know anyway if you think what happened in 1994 was an outrage or an atrocity.

GUEST - in Israel it's hard to see where self-defence ends and terrorism starts on both sides. I know at least some Palestinians denounce Hamas as unrepresentative and a hate group. But on the other side there are Israeli Jews who are fed up with the callousness of their army and the hate-filled Jewish settlers and who stand (for example) by road blocks to try and ensure basic human rights are upheld by the IDF (the settlers are a law unto themselves). All due credit to them.

Hamas of course have no business firing rockets randomly into civilian areas - it is an outrage. The IDF and Jewish settlers are no angels either. The settlers are well-armed and not at all afraid to murder, rob, extort, and violate when it suits them. The IDF, if recent revelations are anything to go by, are not far behind either. These deeds are carried out not against Hamas but against innocent Palestinian civilians trying to go about their 'normal' lives (as if life could be considered normal in either Gaza or the West Bank).

So, do Palestinians have the right to resist the illegal military occupation of their country, the ongoing harrasment, intimidation and even murder of their innocent civilians by the IDF and Jewish settlers? If Israel has that right, by implication so too, does any Palestinian who wishes to exercise it.

Israeli fighter planes fire a few missiles to kill a few Hamas militants and they kill a dozen or so civilians, women and children included. "So what", they shrug their shoulders. "we can't guarantee 100% accuracy with any weapon" (maybe it'd be better not to use the weapons so). Hamas fire rockets randomly into Jewish towns, they kill civilians - women and children too. On the law of averages they are bound to kill a few members of the IDF or else Jewish settlers, if they fire enough rockets. Since all Israeli Jewish adults are required to do military service, there's a good chance of killing a member of the IDF if you kill enough adult civilians. Then you won't have to meet them at gunpoint later elsewhere.

That's not necessarily MY viewpoint, but I guess that's how both camps could easily rationalise it. And so the killing and suffering will go on.

Wouldn't it be better for everyone to try and back up a step or two?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:25 PM

"those kind of tit-for-tat comparisons could go on endlessly without much being achieved by anyone"

Those tit-for-tat comparisons, well Nick without the "tit" there would be no "tat", and that is where such as yourself and the likes of CarolC like to start all these threads decrying what happened in the period 1947 to 1949. What about what went before?

In 1920, 1921, 1929 and during the Arab Revolt of 1936 to 1939, no "Palestinian" Arab land had been taken, no "Palestinian" Arabs had been driven from their homes. The boot was very much on the other foot wasn't it? "Palestinian" Arabs rose up without warning or cause and murdered, raped, robbed, looted, burned and drove Jews from their homes and property. Property Nick that they held perfectly legally, in the case of the Jews of Hebron for over 800 years. Do you seriously put forward the case that the cause of the "Palestinian" Arabs must be championed because what happened to them only happened in 1949 whereas the cause of the Jews of Hebron must be ignored and consigned to history (A history that you and CarolC appear at worst to ignore and deny, at best conveniently forget) because it happened in 1929? Sorry that doesn't wash, violence was introduced to Palestine by the Palestinian Arabs in 1920 and in 1921, base all "tit-for-tat" comparisons with that as you baseline.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

Guest .... correction ... being married to a Canadian does not grant the right to live in Canada.

biLL (a Canadian)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM

I should also add carol and Jack prefer to live in the U.S. ... that's their choice. They also have the right to protest their concerns of specific inadequicies of U.S. policie and politics of the country in which they choose to live.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM

Well said, biLL. Guest's post, to which you responded, is truly un-American...and apparently mis-informed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

For Guest at 11:59

I disagree with CarolC about 97.5% of the time, and I often chastise her for her methods of argumentation,or her interpretation of issues. But at least she puts herself out there.

You, sir or madam, are an anonymous coward who is attacking her through innuendo. If you have information, you should make it clear...else shut up!

You are one reasons I think everyone posting here should have to be registered and use a consistent screen name so the rest of us know who we're dealing with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

"You are one reasons I think everyone posting here should have to be registered and use a consistent screen name so the rest of us know who we're dealing with."

THAT will fall on deaf ears . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:26 PM

Teribus, with tongue firmly in cheek, I would prefer to see more 'tit' and a lot less 'tat-tat-tat'   ;-))

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:56 PM

John OTSSC:
I endorse your last message in full, except in my case it's more like 96% of the time!

Nickhere: I endorse your last post also ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:38 PM

Guest (whoever you are), I looked at that link, and if it's true, it's fairly sad. I can understand a nation wanting to restore itself to glory, but I hope it won't be through killing. Of course we don't know what either Mickey Mouse or the girl are actually saying as I can't speak Arabic (is there anyone here on mudcat who can? maybe they can help). The subtitles could themselves be discrediting propaganda, I just don't know.

On the other hand Norman Finkelstein has written how money supposedly collected for victims of the holocaust is being used to bring young Jews (teenagers) who are considering emigration to Israel on all-expenses paid 'eductational trips' to places like Auschwitz where they are worked into an emotional frenzy until they're ready to do harm to anyone who dares question the zionist project. Unsurprisingly when they arrive in Israel they are more than willing to vent their anger on the Palestinians. Now this is what Finkelstein says, i don't personally know if it's true.

But in both cases, if such things are indeed true, it's deeply sad that people should be taught to hate each other from an early age. There isn't much hope of them living together later in life unless they have exceptionally strong charcters to see through all the b******t.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:48 PM

Nick here re your comment from Finkelstein.

I contribute to two organizations which deal with the Holocaust and genocides (amongst the several medical, educational and animal charities I also support).

As the Holocaust survivors are fewer and fewer--time being what it is--- less of the donations are used for support of those folks. A large portion of the monies collected is earmarked for Holocaust education so that future genocides become unthinkable, and some money is used to create awareness about genocides in places like Darfur.

I think the term 'emotional frenzy' fits Finkelstein's hateful discussions about Israel far more than the sending students and adults on trips to Auschwitz. I know of many young people who have gone on trips such as these. Some go on to Israel (mostly for visits), the vast majority return home with a greater understanding of 'man's inhumanity to man.' Some do emigrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:04 PM

It brings us to the song from "South Pacific"---"You Have To Be Taught". Amazing how that show can be interpreted (and happily revived after 60 years) in many generations.

I know not the intent of the Auschwitz visits but can understand animosity that might follow it. I do, however, know that the kids in the Gaza area (and I suppose in the West Bank as well) are taught to hate and to, someday, do away with these terrible Israelis---not teaching love or brother (sister)hood at all. I don't hear that from Israeli schooling.

Brings us back once again to that prescient piece of music from some 60 yrs ago---seems like some people are doing just that------"...you have to he taught"


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM

John, I have read some of Finkelstein's books and I must say I haven't found them to be 'hateful' although he does reserve opprobrium for what he describes as misappropriated monies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:35 PM

Nickhere, maybe you don't find his words, "all-expenses paid 'eductational [sic] trips' to places like Auschwitz where they are worked into an emotional frenzy until they're ready to do harm to anyone who dares question the zionist project," (as you say the are his) hateful...okay.

But you, who has studied semantics, and he as a linguist surely recognize the negative connotation conveyed in phrases like 'emotional frenzy', 'ready to do harm', 'zionist project' and 'more than willing to vent their anger on the Palestinians." 'Vent their anger,' there's euphemism for you!

These are not the words of a person with an open mind towards Israel or Holocaust institutions. BTW, you say you don't personally know if his assertions (as you say they are his) are true; why don't you do some research into what the Holocaust organizations are about, rather than just parrot things you don't know to be true?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:42 PM

Sure, John. I was paraphrasing Finkelstein. Yes, I suppose the words had negative connotations, but then Finkelstein had something 'negative' - i.e critical - to say about these organisations, and so it's not surprising. If it's pouring rain and freezing cold it's hard to find some way of framing this situation in positive terms, isn't it?

Finkelstein's two main arguments (in "The Holocaust Industry") are that the holocaust of WW2 is being used as a stick to beat any criticism of the zionist project into submission. He argues (as I would, I think) that being critical of zionism is not being anti-semitic (in the same way that being critical of the IRA is not the same as being anti-Irish). He suggests that the holocaust, being an event of such magnitude and suffering, carries an emotional weight that often overrides rational thought. In other words, when people try and criticise the worse apsects of zionism (nationalism in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but must be with repsect to other nationalisms) the holocaust and the Nazi experience inevitably gets dragged into the frame and their motives are misrepresented as being suspect. The argument goes: If you are critical of zionism, you are anti-semitic, like the Nazis were anti-semitic, and therefore you are either a Nazi or the same as a Nazi. Therefore you - and your argument - immediately become associated with the horror of the holocaust and can be dismissed without further analysis.

As you can see this is an emotional rather than a rational argument (I mean the attempted association of critics of zionism with Nazism). Given the magnitude of the holocaust and its place in our culture it's very difficult once the Nazi tag has been applied, to get a fair hearing. This is Finkelstein's first argument, about the misuse or abuse of the holocaust by some people and on the whole I'd have to say he's on the money there.

His second point is that some holocaust organisations and individuals associated with same are less concerned with holocaust victims than they are in making a career out of representing them, with all the attendant lecture circuits, book publishing etc., plus the right to be regarded as 'an expert' whose opinions need to be consulted.

Of course I cannot be sure of the veracity of that part of his claim, and though he makes a good argument backed with facts and figures, my guess is that to prove or disprove such an argument would be a gargantuan undertaking for any individual. Trying to firmly establish the truth of any matter has never been more difficult depsite the vista of knowledge the internet has brought.

You warmly suggest that I don't just parrot what I hear and do some research into holocaust organisations. That is precisely what I am doing, and I made a start by reading some of Finkelstein's work. When I have more research done, I'll have a more complete picture that may either contradict Finkelstein or confim him.

You say you contribute to holocaust organistaions, but you don't say in what capacity (nor am I asking you to tell me, not in the public arena certainly and only by PM if you wish). I support a number of charities too, such as Plan (sponsor a child) and the Red Cross. But basically I just send them the money and they send me quarterly newsletters with summarised updates on their work. I have to take them on their word that the money I send mostly goes to the child and is not all spent on 'administration' or maybe even something totally unconnected to the charity. It is a fact that some charities in the past were little more than scams to keep a handful of people in all-expenses paid positions. It's not inconceivable that this could be the case with some holocaust organisations. I don't know enough about them at present to say definitively if this is the case, but it is what Finkelstein is suggesting, and perhaps he's telling the truth? That's also possible isn't it?
When I have time I usually try and request an annual report / audit on the charities I support. Though it makes heavy reading at least you get some clearer idea of where the money's going.


Anyone who's interested in reading Finkelstein in his own words can check his site at:

Finkelstein, in his own words

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:47 PM

Indeed here's an article from Israeli paper Haaretz which seems to back up what Finkelstein has been saying. And the protest comes this time not from Finkelstein but from the holocaust survivors themselves:

Holocaust survivors angry protest

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:54 PM

Plus here's an interesting take on the Hamas' intransigence story:

Would there be a Peace deal were it not for Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

Has there been anything new on the stipend (read INSULT) offered the Holocaust survivors?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 07:28 PM

I just wrote to the MFA and will get back if/when they reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 07:37 PM

It seems incredible the Israeli Govt could be so miserly towards the holocaust survivors. But I think governments everywhere are a bit like that. They always have to be pressured hard to give what's due to those who deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 07:49 PM

Regardless, Nick, I still would like to know.

I corresponded with the MFA when the war with Lebanon was going on. They talked with me then. I hope they do so now. However, maybe I'm on their poop list. Don't know. Time'll tell just who has fell . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:30 PM

I am not interested in enlarging this discussion beyond what you originally posted, Nickhere,else it can go on forever, and I for one don't have forever.

My point is that Finkelstein is using emotionally charged words to describe events when more neutral terms can convey the same meaning. Of course, after all these years, and all his discussion he wants to blame Jews, Zionists and Israel for all the problems of the immediate area in question, so I understand why he chooses the words he chooses. Perhaps he is not hateful towards Israel, but he has made a near second career denigrating it.

As a Jew, and a human being, I believe that there can and should be a Jewish Homeland within the historic Jewish Homeland. I do not believe that he, either a a Jew or a human being, believes that. I believe that he looks at Israel in a pure academic sense devoid of the humanity of situation.

As a Jew and a human being, I believe that Palestinian Arabs should have a country of their own. They could have had that country prior to 1967...but they didn't for many reasons, most of them discussed at Mudcat over the years. The imperative for a Palestine came only after Israel absorbed the West Bank which had lain fallow (in a political sense) under Jordanian control.

I have said many times (well several times, at least) that I think the only non-negotiable part of a two state agreement is Jerusalem. It will be the Israeli capital, and the Jews will not allow any agreement that has the potential of denying them access to Jewish Holy places, as prior to 1967.

As to the charities we support: The Wiesenthal Center, The Museum of Tolerance (LA), City of Hope Medical Center, National Jewish Hospital and Research Center (which despite its name is non-sectarian), American Diabetes Assn., American Heart Assn., Boy Scouts of America, UCLA Annual Fund, and LA Pet Adoption. Indirectly, through my Synagogue, we provide aid for Darfur and a local Home for emotionally disturbed children. In other years we have supported the US Holocaust Museum, the US Wildlife Federation, the Anti-Defamation League and a few others. In the past we have actively worked to raise money for some of these groups, but not at present. You asked for it you got it! And, as you say, mostly we just read the literature they send out on a regular basis. I give you this list so that you know there is a world for me beyond Judaism and Israel, not to show you how generous we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:36 PM

Add to last post...My comments in the second paragraph do imply that I would agree with his statements or premises even if he used more benign language.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 09:02 PM

Thanks for your post John! Also for the list of charities... but I was being sincere when I said I wasn't expecting you to reply, unless you wanted to, and then only by PM. I hope it was clear that I quite understand that the charitable work one does is a private affair unless one wants to make it public.
I must say though that you certainly seem to be doing great work!

As regards the idea of a Jewish homeland: I quite understand this concept, and why it might be so important to anyone of Jewish extraction in particular.

But from a philosophical point of view I find myself perplexed. In the culture and continent where I live, the model of democratic society we are given to understand is the ideal is that of the pluralistic society. For this reason, it would be considered inappropriate for someone to advocate say, a English England (though it might make commonsense). Were they to suggest that England should primarily be for the nominally christian English and that other ethnic groups and religions be either barred or not admitted fully into civil life there, they would probably be accused of racism.

This is a real difficulty, as countries like France and the UK in particular struggle to cope with the crisis of identity and direction caused by the presence of first and second-generation immigrants. In particular, Muslim immigrants pose a conundrum in that they wish to live according to customs in some cases quite unlike those of the Britons they share the island with. This is causing considerable tension. Some people say 'if they want to live like XYZ, let them go back to where they came from, this is England'. On the contrary, other people say 'sure, but when we wanted to reject old tradiotions and authorities we said pluralism was the only way, and that everyine should be free to pursue his or her own course without interference from the state. If we discriminate against these Muslims, we in turn will logically have to suffer discrimination against ourselves from people who don't like OUR particular lifestyle'.

The conundrum is of coure that both sides have a point. If I were to live in Saudi Arabia, certain freedoms I have here would be curtailed (even more so were I a woman). I would be expected to fit in with Saudi culture, no question. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to require immigrants to the UK to do likewise.

The problem is that for so long people have proposed the pluralistic. tolerant model that logically you cannot discriminate against ANYONE's particular lifestyle unless it's damaging to society. That sounds fine in theory, but once you start to argue that XYZ's groups actiosn are damaging to society you soon find similar arguments can be levelled at, and by, all sides.

So far, the 'West' has promoted a 'tolerant' (a much abused word), pluralistic, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural model as the ideal of the civilsed democracy.

I realise many arab nations do not fit this model - indeed some are antagonistic towards it (e.g Saudi Arabia and taliban controlled Afghanistan) - unless by chance they already have ethnically diverse populations (such as Lebanon). But Israel - conceived of as a specifically Jewish homeland where Jews are the dominant force politically, economically and socially, also struggles and fails to fit in this mould. Since it is on occasion presented as being practically the only democratic, 'western-style' model of society in the Middle East, it yet has to reconcile these facts.

I realise that these are philosophical arguments, but they do raise important questions about our cultural assumptions - not just for Israel, but for all Western society. Maybe the pluralistic model is not the ideal one after all. But if we are to follow that conclusion, we could eventually see a repeat of say, Spain under Isabella and Ferdinand in the late 1400s when all non-catholics (and in a sense, non-Spanish) people were forcibly ejected from Spain. This included large numbers of Jews and even larger numbers of Muslims. Those that remained did so very much as kind of 'inferior citizens' always unsure of what the state might decide about their status in future.

Anyway, you've said you wanted to wind up this post, and that's fine by me. I suppose other people might want to continue posting to it, I'll have to leave that up to them. Interesting discussion anyway, thanks!