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BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 28 May 08 - 01:48 PM
Riginslinger 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM
bobad 28 May 08 - 02:04 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 28 May 08 - 02:07 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 28 May 08 - 02:22 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 28 May 08 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Suffet at work 28 May 08 - 02:52 PM
beardedbruce 28 May 08 - 03:01 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 28 May 08 - 03:25 PM
CarolC 28 May 08 - 04:39 PM
Ghost of Electricity (inactive) 28 May 08 - 05:00 PM
CarolC 28 May 08 - 05:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 08 - 05:32 PM
Peace 28 May 08 - 05:42 PM
Suffet 28 May 08 - 06:53 PM
Wolfgang 29 May 08 - 08:07 AM
Riginslinger 29 May 08 - 11:21 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 11:34 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 11:42 AM
Teribus 29 May 08 - 12:02 PM
Riginslinger 29 May 08 - 12:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 May 08 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Hugo 29 May 08 - 12:49 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Hugo 29 May 08 - 02:41 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 03:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 May 08 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Hugo 29 May 08 - 04:08 PM
Goose Gander 29 May 08 - 05:58 PM
GUEST 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM
Riginslinger 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM
Peace 29 May 08 - 06:09 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 06:13 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 07:30 PM
Riginslinger 29 May 08 - 07:38 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 07:43 PM
Riginslinger 29 May 08 - 07:58 PM
meself 29 May 08 - 08:03 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 08:10 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 08:28 PM
Riginslinger 29 May 08 - 10:39 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 29 May 08 - 10:50 PM
meself 29 May 08 - 10:56 PM
Suffet 29 May 08 - 11:46 PM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 01:44 AM
CarolC 30 May 08 - 01:50 AM
Suffet 30 May 08 - 07:52 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 30 May 08 - 10:25 AM
Suffet 30 May 08 - 12:30 PM

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Subject: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:48 PM

As demonstarted in a newly-released Harvard study, and contrary to what certain incessant Mudcat posters would have us beleive, there is much common ground among Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews.

For example, "77 percent of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world."

Harvard University report on Israeli Arabs & Jews


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM

If that's the case, one has to wonder why there is so much ongoing conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM

All the Arabs NOT is Israel want to go there, too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:04 PM

77% of the population against which apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide are being practiced would rather live in the country that is perpetrating these atrocities.

My goodness, what CAN they be thinking?

Maybe some of those "incessant posters" should clue them in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:07 PM

Well, Riginslinger, if you've ever been to Israel, you'd know that the Jews of Israel and the Arabs of Israel get along remarkably well.

This study pertains to the Jews and Arabs within Israel proper; it's not talking about the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, claims all of Israel proper as part of its Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:22 PM

The link that I provided in the opening post to this thread is for a brief summary of the Harvard study.

Here is a link for the complete study.

The complete Hardvard study (PDF file)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:33 PM

Thank you for the PDF link, GoE. I'll check it out after lunch. Before you posted it, I emailed the author of the Study for amplifications. If I get a response, I'll share it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Suffet at work
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:52 PM

The percentage is not surprising. Most black South Africans who lived under apartheid still wanted to remain in South Africa. It was and is their home land. That, however, does not mean they accepted the injustices of the system. Instead, they organized and fought to change the system, and in the end they were successful. I presume that most Israeli Arabs would prefer to change the system that among other things prevents them from owning homes on the 90% of the land controlled by the Jewish National Fund Land Trust, or which bars them from certain sensitive occupations, or which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces, or which consigns them and their children to separate and unequal schools. But that's just a guess. What do I know?

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:01 PM

" which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces,"


Really?? My understanding of Israeli law is that they are not REQUIRED to serve in the military, but may if they wish. A slight difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:25 PM

Suffet,

I'm confused by elements of your statement: "I presume that most Israeli Arabs would prefer to change the system that among other things prevents them from owning homes on the 90% of the land controlled by the Jewish National Fund Land Trust, or which bars them from certain sensitive occupations, or which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces, or which consigns them and their children to separate and unequal schools."

Are you saying that 90% of the land in Israel is controlled by the Jewish National Fund?

In actual fact, it is 14%, not 90%.

If it were true that Arabs are barred from owning homes on JNF land, that actually constitutes less than 2% of Israel by my calculations.

The thing is, though, that the JNF land is almost all forest and parklands. Jews don't live on it either.

Did you know that JNF is actually a world leader in researching enviornmental sustainability?

Your statement that Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli armed forces is not true. They are permitted to serve but are not required to. Some volunteer, most do not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:39 PM

They may not have that opportunity for long. They are being pressured to leave by exclusionary practices on the part of the Israeli government. These practices include refusing building permits, refusing essential utilities and services, and other discriminatory practices.

I suspect that what the Israeli Arabs are saying is that they would prefer to remain in their place of origin, just as the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are saying (they would rather live there, despite the military occupation, than live anywhere else), and not that they would prefer to live under the kind of government that they live under in Israel rather than the kinds of government that might be found anywhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:00 PM

"I suspect that what the Israeli Arabs are saying is"

I suspect that you're commenting without having read the report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:25 PM

Having read the contents of the report, I don't find anything in it that contradicts what I said in my previous post, however the Arab response to the question about greater integration of Arab citizens tends to support what I have said. They desire more integration. The Jewish response is noticeably less supportive of greater integration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:32 PM

Of course Israeli Arabs would wish to continue live in what was Palestine. It's their home. The same goes for others who have been exiled from what is now Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:42 PM

And the Israelis would like to continue living in their home, too. Lest we forget.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:53 PM

Greetings:

The title to approximately 90% of non-governmental land in Israel is held by KKL (the JNF Land Trust) and is then leased long term to homeownners, housing developments, cooperatives, kibbutzim, village corporations, etc. The 14% that Ghost of Electricity cites is the portion directly administered by KKL.

Israeli Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, even as volunteers. Other non-Jews -- Druze, Armenians, Russian Christians, etc. -- are required to serve in the IDF, even if they don't want to.

By the way, I speak as a person who has close relatives living in Israel, mostly in the artists' village of Ein Hod, built on land confiscated from the local Arab population in 1948. At least they don't bullshit themselves about what happened. And yes, they built their house on land which the village leases from KKL.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:07 AM

Israeli Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, even as volunteers. (Suffet)

From among non-Bedouin Arab citizens, the number of volunteers for military service—some Christian Arabs and even a few Muslim Arabs—is minute, and the government makes no special effort to increase it. Six Israeli Arabs have received orders of distinction as a part of their military service; of them the most famous is a Bedouin officer, Lieutenant Colonel Abd el-Amin Hajer (also known as Amos Yarkoni), who received the Order of Distinction. Recently, a Bedouin officer was promoted to the rank of Colonel.

from IDF

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:21 AM

Actually, why should America care what goes on in Israel? Wouldn't most Americans be better off just to leave it alone, and let the Arabs and Israelis go off and to their own thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:34 AM

I have read the pdf version of the study as lined here by Ghost. I guess I'm not as cynical as some of the response I've sen here; I find some real hope that a reasonable solution can be had long term, at least from responses of the general public. I was especially encouraged that respondents indicated they were, generally, more well disposed to the other side, than one might have thought given the rhetoric of leaders on both sides

Another interesting bit of information: of the Jewish respondents, over 80% were secular or practising, of non-Orthodox affiliation; of the Arabs, over 80% were Moslem.

One item I found problematic is that the Jewish interviews were by telephone (thereby skewing the sample to those who had telephones), while the Arab interviews were mostly in-person. One can speculate on the reasons for that.

Again, Ghost, thank you for posting this study,
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Riginslinger, why stop with Israel? There are many isolationist Americans who would say the same about the Balkans, Darfur, and other hot spots in the world. Let everyone fend for themselves. Disband the United Nations. Hell, let's just return to 1450.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:02 PM

On another thread about "Palestinian 'Facts'" I was checking some details about the Golan Heights and a possible Israeli/Syrian peace accord when I came across this:

"The Golan Heights were under military administration between 1967 and 1981. In that year, Israel passed the Golan Heights Law, placing the Golan Heights under civilian Israeli law, administration, and jurisdiction. Most non-Jewish residents of the Golan Heights, mainly Druze, refused to surrender Syrian citizenship, though Israeli citizenship was available to them.

In the 1999 elections, 773 residents of Ghajar and fewer than 700 residents of the 4 Druze villages were eligible voters. Syria continues to offer them benefits such as free university tuition.

In 2005 the Golan Heights had a population of approximately 38,900, including approximately 19,300 Druze, 16,500 Jews, and 2,100 Muslims. Jewish villages, including moshavim and kibbutzim, are consolidated municipally under the Golan Regional Council, and are inhabited by Israeli citizens. The Golan Muslims reside in the Israel-Lebanon border-straddling village of Ghajar. They accepted Israeli citizenship in 1981. The Druze reside in the villages of Ein Qinya, Buq'ata, Majdal Shams, and Mas'ada. Most are involved in farm work.

Both personal and business relations exist between the Druze and their Jewish neighbors; there is little tension between the two groups. As a humanitarian gesture, since 2005, Israel allows Druze farmers to export some 11,000 tons of apples to Syria each year, the first kind of trade ever made between Syria and Israel. Since 1988, Israel has allowed Druze clerics to make annual religious pilgrimages to Syria.

The Druze
Unlike Druze in Israel proper, fewer than 30% of the Druze of the Golan Heights are Israeli citizens; the remainder hold Syrian citizenship. The latter are permanent residents of Israel, and they hold a laissez-passer. The pro-Israeli Druze are ostracized by the pro-Syrian Druze. Reluctance to accept citizenship also reflects fear of ill treatment or displacement by Syrian authorities should the Golan Heights eventually be returned to Syria. According to "The Independent", most Druze in the Golan Heights live relatively comfortable lives in a freer society than they would have in Syria under the present regime. According to Egypt's Daily Star, their standard of living vastly surpasses that of their counterparts on the Syrian side of the border. Hence their fear of a return to Syria, though most of them identify themselves as Syrian. Ties to Syria are on the wane, and many have come to appreciate aspects of Israel's liberal-democratic society, although few risk saying so publicly for fear of Syrian retribution."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:05 PM

Start with Israel. That's the one that seems to cause the most heartburn. Then, if that works out, go on from there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:46 PM

skewing the sample to those who had telephones Having a phone - landline or mobile - is so widespread in Israel, especially among Jewish Israelis, that it seems very unlikely that any significant skewing could arise. (So long as the phone survey wasn't carried out on the sabbath.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:49 PM

The Israeli blockade of Gaza has been described by Archbishop Tutu as an "abomination".
Hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 01:26 PM

That may be Hugo, but that's his opinion, and not necessarily a fact. At any rate, that is not the topic of this thread...you might want to post your comment on "Palestinan 'facts'" which is currently in its 490th post


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Thank you for your advice John although I could not help but notice that in your previous posting you managed to mention the Balkans ,Dafur and the United Nations so a mention of Archbishop Tutu is hardly amiss.Also the description by Zionists of Israeli Arabs really will not do.Surely they call themselves Palestinian?
Hugo
Its as if the conflict is not only geographical or military but also amazingly linguistic!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:14 PM

Hugo--The study, as I understand what I read, was as between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis (citizens of Israel). Whether or not those Arabs responding to the survey really consider themselves to be Palestinian cannot be known from the study as published.

For historical reference, until the establishment of Israel, a Jew from that area would have probably self-described them self as a Palestinian Jew.

Please forgive me if I don't understand your last sentence above.

BTW, I mentioned Tutu, the Balkans etc in response to comments by you and Riginslinger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:01 PM

It's as if the conflict is not only geographical or military but also amazingly linguistic!!

Please forgive me if I don't understand your last sentence above.

I'd take the meaning of that sentence of Hugo as pretty self evident. There are significant disagreements about what words to use to refer to people and places, reflecting differences about other issues, such as borders and bloodshed.

As is the case in many disputes where the way such labels are applied tend to indicate the side to which disputants are more aligned with. (For example in relation to Northern Ireland or pre-apartheid South Africa.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:08 PM

WORDS ARE ALSO WEAPONS
My understanding of the situation in Israel is that the Zionists in the main cannot bear to use the term "Palestinian" and instead refer to them as "Arabs."
Calling them arabs implies that the exiled refugees could feel at home anywhere in the arab world say from Morrocco to Iraq whereas of course identifying the people as "Palestinian" implies that they have legitimate rights to belong to their homeland.
Its a real battle of linguistics which I think the Palestinian people have won.If only the main struggle were as straightforward.
Hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:58 PM

"There are many isolationist Americans . . ."

Non-interventionism is not isolationism. If anything, the United State's interventionist policies have left it more isolated than ever. Intervening on one side or another in someone else's civil war is pointless and destructive. The Balkans are a case in point: the Serbs were ethnically cleansing the Kosovars, the 'west' intervenes and the Kosovars ethnically cleanse the Serbs. This is progress? I would have imposed an arms blockade on the entire region and them let fight it out with knives if that's what they wanted to do. Not that anyone asked me.

The case of Isreal: with the most powerful military in the region (and nuclear arms) they are quite capable of taking care of themselves. By uncritically supporting Israel against the Arab nations, the US stirs up animosity against itself where none need exist. And many of those so-called 'friends' of Isreal like Rev. Hagee aren't really friends; their pre-millenial fantasies require most of the Jews to be boiled alive at Armageddon, or something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

Michael Morris, I actually was taking you seriously until you started your fantasy about Rev. Hagee. You obviously know precious little about him. He does not believe that most (or any) Jews will be 'boiled alive at Armageddon, or something like that.' That is the fantasy of those folks who are afraid of religious Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:05 PM

"...the US stirs up animosity against itself where none need exist."


                      I agree with that and everything else you say here, MM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:09 PM

"McCain told CNN's Brian Todd that he rejected Hagee's endorsement after Todd brought to his attention Hagee's comments that Adolf Hitler had been fulfilling God's will by hastening the desire of Jews to return to Israel in accordance with biblical prophecy.

"God says in Jeremiah 16: 'Behold, I will bring them the Jewish people again unto their land that I gave to their fathers. ... Behold, I will send for many fishers, and after will I send for many hunters. And they the hunters shall hunt them.' That would be the Jews. ... Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter," Hagee said, according to a transcript of his sermon."

I think the term 'boiled' was facetious. But not really inaccurate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:13 PM

So sorry---Guest at 6:05 is JotSC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:30 PM

John Hagee is the founder of Christians United For Israel. The Executive Director is David Brog, a Jew (in 2007 he professed to be an normative Jew, as opposed to a 'Messianic Jew' or a 'Jews for Jesus', when he spoke at the Reform Synagogue to which I belong.) Hagee's group consider themselves to be Christian Zionists which does not seek Jewish participation in Armageddon. The description of CZ, taken from the Jewish Virtual Library will show that the term 'boiled in oil...' whether Michael Morris believes it or is being facetious is innaccurate.

               "Theology of Christian Zionism"
The actual theology of Christian Zionism, also known as Biblical Zionism, supports the right of the Jewish people to return to their homeland on scriptural grounds. The biblical foundation for Christian Zionism is found in God's Covenant with Abraham. It was in this covenant that God chose Abraham to birth a nation through which He could redeem the world, and to do this He bequeathed them a land on which to exist as this chosen nation.
Christian Zionism is confirmed throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. The major and minor prophets consistently confirmed this national calling on Israel, promised her future restoration to the land after a period of exile, and spoke of her spiritual renewal and redemption bringing light to the world.
Christian Zionism differs with Replacement Theology which teaches that the special relationship that Israel had with her God in terms of her national destiny and her national homeland has been lost because of her rejection of Jesus as Messiah, and therefore the Church has become the new Israel. The Church has then inherited all the blessings promised to Israel but the judgments and curses still conveniently remain over the Jewish people.
Instead, Christian Zionism teaches from the scriptures that God's covenant with Abraham is still valid today. There remains a national destiny over the Jewish people and her national homeland is her everlasting possession in fulfillment of God's plans and purposes for her. The New Testament scriptures not only affirm the Abrahamic covenant, but they confirm the historical mission of Israel and that Israel's gifts and calling are irrevocable.
Thus, Christian Zionism is not based on prophecy or end-time events. Most Christian Zionists would agree, however, that Israel's reemergence on the world's scene, in fulfillment of God's promises to her, indicate that other biblically-predicted events will follow.
(Taken from Jewish Virtual Library)

Now you may not believe in CV--I'm not sure I do, fully--but that is how they view their mission. And absent deeds to the contrary, one should take them at their word,


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:38 PM

So how does this figure in with Hagee, and Hitler's mission to chase the Jews off to Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:43 PM

You tell me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:58 PM

I'm a complete neophyte on all of this. I can't tell anybody anything. I'm just trying to make sense of it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: meself
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:03 PM

"Now you may not believe in CV[sic]--I'm not sure I do, fully"

I should certainly hope not - you seem like an intelligent fellow. The [hilarious, pathetic, superstitious, dangerous, lunatic - choose you descriptor] argument that the existence of Israel as a political entity should be supported because "God promised" can only discredit RATIONAL arguments in support of Israel. It would be best not to mention it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:10 PM

Rig-- as I understand about the Hitler comment, Hagee made it back in the '90s (1990s that is). Christians United was formed in 2006. I don't know what was in Hagee's mind way back then--I had never even heard of him--so your guess is as good as mine. As we grow, our outlook and understanding often changes. Has that happened with him? I don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:28 PM

Thanks for damning me with faint praise, meself. You might find his religious belief irrational using any or all of your pejorative descriptors, but that doesn't make you right or him wrong, or vice versa.

Frankly, I often worry when Christians involve their Christianity into Israeli politics. Many of my friends believe that Evangelicals love Jews (and Israel) to its death to bring the Second Coming, as Michael Morris seems to think. And I, too, believe that many Evangelicals do. CV says that is not their position. Until I'm shown contrary evidence, I believe them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:39 PM

Frankly, I'm puzzled as to why Christians would be motivated to involve themsleves in Israeli politics.

                  But maybe it would help if we identified CV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:50 PM

Ah, you caught me!...in a typo. I meant to type "CU". You can visit the secret site at cufi.org. Enjoy.

BTW, the reason for the typo is that I live in an area often referred to as CV, for Crescenta Valley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: meself
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:56 PM

John - If I'd looked at the name at the top of your post, I would have damned you with more fulsome praise, since I've always found your contributions to be thoughtful, and to express a reasonableness and a moderation that are often in short supply around here.

And I wouldn't have mocked your religious beliefs if I'd really been able to comprehend that they actually ARE your beliefs - as you indicate they are, to some extent. To be honest, I just couldn't quite believe it; otherwise, I would have expressed myself more diplomatically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:46 PM

OK, I was wrong about Arab volunteers in the IDF. A small number have apparently served.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:44 AM

I've got Christian Zionists in my family. The ones in my family believe all of the stuff in the copy/pasted description of Christian Zionism, and they also believe that most of the Jews will be killed in armageddon, and the rest will be converted to Christianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:50 AM

The thing that needs to be understood about Christian Zionism, is that the return of the Jews to Israel is not the desired for outcome. It is part of the preparation for the desired for outcome. The outcome they are awaiting is the second comimg of Christ. The return of the Jews to Israel is one of the events that presage the second coming of Christ according to their beliefs. But they don't get to stay there very long as Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:52 AM

Carol: "The return of the Jews to Israel is one of the events that presage the second coming of Christ according to their beliefs. But they don't get to stay there very long as Jews." Very well put.

Peace: "And the Israelis would like to continue living in their home, too. Lest we forget." Also very well put. But I would add that a substantial minority Israelis have been voting to the contrary with their feet. Otherwise, why would there be substantial communities of Israeli ex-patriates in New York City, Los Angeles, and elsewhere? I call this phenomenon Diaspora II. You can tell folks you read it here on Mudcat!

A personal note: My wife had been a Zionist activist and youth leader. She actually went to Israel during the 1967 war, but returned to the USA the next year to finish nursing school. That gave her a chance to reassess a lot of the assumptions she had made, and so she became an ex-Zionist. Over the years, so have many of her former comrades. Others have remained in Israel, but have their doubts. Her sister, for example, lives in an artists' village in the Carmel Mountains just south of Haifa, and tries to shut the situation out of her thoughts -- except when a missile fired from Gaza comes flying over her house.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:25 AM

CarolC-Then either your relatives are wrong or the Jews are wrong. BTW, I enjoy the irony of be called on cut and paste by the queen of cut and paste.

Suffet(Steve)-Jews live all over the world, just as other religio-ethnic groups, and have since Cyrus of Persia allowed them to return to Judea from Babylonian exile (538 BCE). Even back then a substantial group of Jews, most of whom grew up in exile remained in the Persian Empire. Until 1948 there were sizeable communities of Jews in both Iraq and Iran, now only remnants. The difference in the Diaspora now is that Jews have the choice of living in a Jewish homeland, or living anywhere else. This was not always a choice for them.

May your sister-in-law always remain safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:30 PM

John,

You said "The difference in the Diaspora now is that Jews have the choice of living in a Jewish homeland, or living anywhere else. This was not always a choice for them." While that is true, a surprisingly substantial number who had chosen to live in Eretz Yisroel later changed their mind. Another substantial number who were born and grew up there also chose to leave. Those Israeli ex-patriates, whether sabra (native born) or those who hade made alliyah (immigrants) are whom I mean by Diaspora II.   

You also said, "May your sister-in-law always remain safe," and I thank you. But safety can only come for them (and for my brother-in-law, my nieces, nephews, and cousins) with reconciliation between the Israelis and Palestinians. And that can only come through the recognition of both the justice and injustice on each side.

You are right in saying that, at least for now, "Jews have the choice of living in a Jewish homeland." But that homeland is also the homeland of many Arabs and other non-Jews. Some of those Arabs currently make up about 20% of the population of Israel proper, and many others, a we all know, live in the Palestinian Diaspora. Until there is some just resolution, the will be no prospect of peace.

--- Steve


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