BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:15 PM

The US has been giving money to Israel for many years. The total of direct US aid the US has given to Israel is around 108 billion dollars. And that doesn't count all of the hidden ways we give money to Israel, such as guaranteed loans, which Israel has never once paid back. That's a lot of money and we need it. Israel doesn't. If we had that money now, we would be able to provide health care to people in the US. The war in Iraq could be considered a kind of financial aid to Israel as well, since many Israeli and Zionist leaders see the war in Iraq as being strategically important to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:08 PM

That is not true, Carol. You are exaggerating that big time. You can and DO respond to posts. Read what you've written. Your health care remark wasn't addressed to me? Yeak. Right!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:06 PM

I am not allowed to respond to anyone in the Mudcat for any reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:06 PM

"Israel's medical advancements don't help me or my family one tiny little bit, because we have no access to any health care whatever. Until the US can make sure that all of its citizens have access to health care and we are able to maintain our roads and infrastructure, Israel has no business taking money from us.

And as long as the US taxpayers are paying for Israel's welfare state, we have a right to speak out against its apartheid and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians."

Tying the two together when the monstrous expenditure of the Iraq War is still there seems to be a bit out of sync, doesn't it?

That post states that the Israelis are to blame for the poster's lack of health care. HUH?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:02 PM

I wonder how many Canadians would be willing to give up their universal health care while their government was sending billions of dollars of their tax money to a country that didn't need it. I'm guessing not very many.


Regardless of whether or not I would be allowed to respond to personal abuse in the Mudcat, it's not possible to respond to accusations of hating Israelis anyway. If one responds by saying they don't hate Israelis, they'll get the "un huh" response and they'll be accused of being defensive, which, they will be told, proves that they do hate Israelis. It doesn't really matter whether or not the person being so accused really does hate Israelis, because the only purpose in making such an accusation is to bully people into silence. Such accusations conveniently overlook the many Israelis with whom people like me are in agreement, and who are most decidedly not in agreement with the kinds of people who make those kinds of accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:52 PM

At least a couple or three of you have warned me on this thread that Christian Zionists support Israel in order bring about End Times.
I read in the Jerusalem Post where Lockheed-Martin may sell F-22 fighters to Israel. Could this be the Raptor which brings about the Rapture?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM

But your expressed hatred of Israelis shows through very clearly.

I can't think of a single post I have ever read by Carol which justifies that. Maybe I've missed the ones you refer to - but I think it more likely that you are reading into them what you imagine to be there, and assume that criticism has to be based on hatred.

I understand that direct personal abuse, which that amounts to, is not seen as acceptable on the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:48 PM

"I note again that I am not allowed to respond to anyone, including those who make personal attacks on me."



                         Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:44 PM

True. But your expressed hatred of Israelis shows through very clearly. All too clearly. You are not interested in anything resembling fairness. And if you are it seldom shows in your posts. Go lecture your friends and the converted. They will buy into the noise. I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:44 PM

You perhaps could do more good by joining forces with this man, Carol:

Dr. Patch Adams

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:41 PM

The only way to make the government comply is for the voters to collectively make their will known. This is one of the reasons people discuss politics with each other, including in public forms like the Mudcat. To bring the issues to the surface, discuss them, and work out possible solutions.

In the US, speaking out in public forums has always been a way for voters to discuss issues and work out possible solutions. This is what I am doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:34 PM

The complain to your government. Your government is not on Mudcat. Have a NICE day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:21 PM

The people of Canada do not in any way face the kinds of problems that millions of people in the US face with it comes to health issues. In Canada, one can go to a doctor and get preventative health care. Canadians can be screened for illnesses that are not fatal if treated, but if not treated, will eventually kill them. Millions of people in the US cannot do that. Millions of people in the US do not have access to regular screenings for treatable cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, and other treatable health problems, and if they do find themselves facing these illnesses, they are not able to afford the treatments. This is not the case in Canada, where everyone can get screened, as well as treated for these as well any other health problems they experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:15 PM

We are told that there isn't enough money to provide the people of the US with health care. But we are spending billions of dollars a year on the War in Iraq and making welfare payments to Israel. The war in Iraq is doing nothing to help the US taxpayers, and Israel doesn't need our money. It's got plenty of its own money and a highly advanced and well equipped military. The people of the US do need that money.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:13 PM

'I imagine it's easy to be glib when one doesn't daily face the specter of dying or going homeless in the event of a serious illness."'

And, fyi, I do face that prospect. But I don't figure it's the Palestinians' fault (the way you figure it's the Israelis' fault in your case). I suppose that by using your convoluted logic I could MAKE it the Palestinians' fault, but I don't hate them the way you hate Israelis.

Now, back to the jujubes . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

"I don't suppose anyone who lives in a country with universal health care can appreciate what it's like to not have any access to health care at all, or to only be able to get access to health care by going bankrupt and losing their home. I imagine it's easy to be glib when one doesn't daily face the specter of dying or going homeless in the event of a serious illness."

So your rationale is that Isreal has caused your lack of health care. BRILLIANT.

Now, has anyone got jujubes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

I note again that I am not allowed to respond to anyone, including those who make personal attacks on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

I would like the government if this country to stop giving my tax money to both Israel as well as Abbas. However, the amount it is giving to Abbas wouldn't do nearly as much good for people in need in the US as the amount it is giving to Israel, since the amount being given to Abbas is a small fraction of the amount it has been giving to Israel.

And the US is only giving that money to Abbas to help him help Israel fight Hamas. It's not being used to help the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:30 PM

I don't suppose anyone who lives in a country with universal health care can appreciate what it's like to not have any access to health care at all, or to only be able to get access to health care by going bankrupt and losing their home. I imagine it's easy to be glib when one doesn't daily face the specter of dying or going homeless in the event of a serious illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

And I suppose they don't fund the Palestinian Authority either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

"The US is not giving any money to Hamas."

Anyone got jujubes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

The US is not giving any money to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:06 PM

"Until the US can make sure that all of its citizens have access to health care and we are able to maintain our roads and infrastructure, Israel has no business taking money from us."

After this senseless shit you posted I will say 'who cares' to every post you make in future. You slam Jews yet make no mention of money the US gives to Hamas?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

Who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:38 PM

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

--Erskine Childers, British researcher

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

Israel's medical advancements don't help me or my family one tiny little bit, because we have no access to any health care whatever. Until the US can make sure that all of its citizens have access to health care and we are able to maintain our roads and infrastructure, Israel has no business taking money from us.

And as long as the US taxpayers are paying for Israel's welfare state, we have a right to speak out against its apartheid and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

Raytheon Nine Walk Free!
Some good news received today . Apparently the Raytheon Nine in Derry who entered the Raytheon Offices in Ulster during the Israeli bombing of Lebanon two years ago and were subsequently charged with criminal damage and affray have had all charges dropped and their trial halted after several days in court.
Raytheon, a multinational manufacturer and supplier of military equipment,was subject to a "sit in" by peace and anti war protestors after the Israeli military used Raytheon supplied cluster bombs against Leanese civilians. The protestors had occupied a Raytheon office and had ,so it was alleged, thrown computer equipment out of a window.However,the trial seems to have collapsed according to reports on the web!
Raytheon
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM

Yes, whatever it is, it's too much. America needs to start thinking about it's own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:57 AM

Whether the USA can afford to pay for it isn't the point. I imagine Iran and Syria can pay for whatever military aid they provide as well. I'm sure the people who carried out September 11th could afford the plane fares, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:39 AM

If the "2.5 billion in military aid (per year) for Israel" is correct, that figure represents less than one dollar per thousand in the US federal budget. I think we can afford that. Their medical technology breakthroughs are second in the world to those of the US. Their technology advancements are also important.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

Really bad idea, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

No - but I doubt if it comes too near the level of US military aid to Israel: "US defence aid to Israel currently stands at $2.4bn a year - the new package would amount to a 25% increase. (From BBC News website, 29 July 2007.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:38 AM

Any idea what that actually is Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:52 PM

Great idea, McGrath!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:36 PM

How aboutn, as a first step, offer to reduce funding to the same level as that provided by Syria and Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:41 PM

Absolutely Rigginslinger - but from where? Or is this the usual one sided bullshit?? Or are you going to call Syria and Iran to account??

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:04 PM

It's time to cut off the funding!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

Greetings:

I should point out that Amnesty International does hold all states accountable for human rights abuses, including the Arab states that Beardedbruce lists, and including Israel at times, and also oncluding the Palestine Authority, which may not be a state but sure knows all the bad habits of statehood.

My own point is not to weigh the abuses and injustices of each side against one another, but to say that peace and reconciliation cannot come until people are willing to look at and understand the abuses and injustices committed by their own side. Despite what some would claim, doing so doesn't make you disloyal, treacherous, self-hating, or neurotic. It simply makes you honest, and that's a good and necessary first step.

As I have said before, I am pessimistic. The scars by now run too deep, the positions have become too rigid, and there are just too many crazies out there ready, willing, and able to award what I call the Middle East Peace Prize to anyone who makes a move towards reconciliation. The Middle East Peace Prize is, of course, a few grams of hot lead. Previous recipients have included, among others, UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte, UN observer Andre Serot, Jordan's King Abdullah, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin. I doubt that they will be the last.

As the apocryphal old man in Jerusalem told me, "I feel like I'm talking to a fucking wall!"

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:39 AM

Don't go confusing the map for the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:01 PM

Reads just fine, Bill. Just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:52 PM

A few typos--as usual--such is the price of intensity. We need spell check for us who rush.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

Right you are. McGrath,etc;   Which brings us right back to the other query---and how do the Arab nations feel about that---or, as asked, is it only Israel tht needs to comply?

British history in this area is not what one can call completely neutral given some of the PM there starting with (or including) Bevan. Balfour made some sense and you see how that was "welcomed".

As to the neighboring states---just today Ahmadijinidad (who the hell can spell it but another fellow of his ilk) said, at an international conference, that Israel will be wiped off the face of the map---whether or not Iran does it is not important. He has not been invived to social events by the very people he is speaking about. Strange.   

Yes, peace is just around the corner because Pres. Bush says it is---just like in Iraq.   As long as we have people of such good will as the Iranian Pres. ( was not going to spell that one again), Dubya, and his fabrications, and all the other ill willed people in that area it will be an elusive thing and not not one that Israel can be blamed for.

True--very true--Israel has its faults as do we. Is Israel announcing its intention of wiping other nations off the face of the earth or acting for self defense?

I am sure some of the---well, certain ones---members of this forum will give truly honest and objective commentary. And that honest and true answer will be promulgated by the very obejective writers we have here---I think of one in particular. For those that might get my drift---that is saarcasm

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:24 PM

I suppose if we think of people as some kind of homogenous commodity to be stacked away on convenient shekves a mutual agreement to "absorb displaced Arabs and Jews" makes sense. And so does a question like "HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?"

But the other way of seeing it to remind ourselves we are talking about human beings with indvidual lives and hopes who have had to live in exile from their own homes and from their own land, and who should have their right to return recognised and protected. And that applies just as much to Jews who have been displaced against their will as it does to Moslems and Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

Freedom of worship
2 Freedom to gather together to worship
3 Freedom of religious assembly
4 The right to move freely in a peacable way
Freedom to observe religious holidays etc

Obviously these rights would need to be enshrined and guaranteed


And will you demand that the Arab nations do the same?

Saudi Arabia
Iran
Lebanon
Syria
Morocco
Algeria
Egypt
Yeman
Quatar
etc?

Or is it ONLY Israel that has to comply????

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM

It is up to those involved in the struggle to decide what is acceptable but it seems reasonable to me that the Palestinian refugees must have the right to return and there should be a one state democracy with guaranteed right for all religious communities and those of no religion.
These rights would include
1 Freedom of worship
2 Freedom to gather together to worship
3 Freedom of religious assembly
4 The right to move freely in a peacable way
Freedom to observe religious holidays etc

Obviously these rights would need to be enshrined and guaranteed .
Hugo

And i do recognise that what is easy to write down on paper is a whole lot different in real life but the alternative is another 60 years of repression,bigotry and slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:30 PM

But my question stands:

HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:29 PM

"I don't know whether there have ever been an offer from either side of a reciprocal agreement along those lines, with similar choices being offered also to non-Jews who have been exiled from what is now Israel. "


You mean that you do not look at what the state of Israel offered in 1948- It absorbed the displaced Jews, and the Arab nations could absorb the displaced Palestinian Moslims. Since Israel was a lot smaller, and had more refugees to absorb, this was a case of Israel offering one hell of a lot more than the Arabs ever did-


But the Arabs never did allow the Palestinian refugees to settle, even on the West Bank when it was under Jordanian ( you know, the Palestinian ARAB Homeland created from 77% of Mandate Palestine) rule from 1948 to 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

Frankly, I don't care what they do. I'm just tired of paying for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Problem is that the situation--those who hate Israel notwithstanding--is NOT one-sided. Until such time as folks see that there are two parties here who are wrong then no progress towards a peace settlement will be possible. And with that I bid you a farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Is your point GuestG, in your cross post, that Churchill should have played 'patty cake'? The aggressor does not get to choose the form or degree of reaction!!!! That applies Nazis, Hamas/Hezbullah, or Argentines. [No I am not, repeat not, equating these groups one to the other]