BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM

Of course Jews driven from their homes in other countries ought to have have the right to return there, with guarantees of no persecution, and with an option of compensation if they prefer not to do so.

I don't know whether there have ever been an offer from either side of a reciprocal agreement along those lines, with similar choices being offered also to non-Jews who have been exiled from what is now Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

Teribus at his finest yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:08 PM

Possibly not WLD, but maybe they could compare notes with people from Guernica; Warsaw; Rotterdam; London; Coventry; Plymouth; Portsmouth; Clydebank; etc; etc.

As he walked round Coventry, the morning after the attack, Churchill swore that it would repaid a thousand times over - "Bomber" Harris and his "Old Lags" delivered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

"so you support the compensation of the GREATER number of Jews that were driven out of Arab countries?" - beardedbruce

The thunderous silence that that will provoke will be interesting Bruce, for it would appear that in the region we are talking about:

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to launch unprovoked attacks on Jews, but completely reprehensible for the Jews to defend themselves from those attacking them.

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to invade and occupy land that is not their own and hold it by force of arms, but completely unacceptable for Jews in time of war to do the same in order to secure their boundaries.

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to "ethnically cleanse" Jews from areas where they have lived for centuries, to confiscate their land and property and deport them without compensation or right of return, but entirely unreasonable and inhuman of the Jews to deny right of return to Arabs who have never lived in the part of the 1923 Mandate area now known as Israel, and whose forefathers travelled from Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq to work in industries and agricultural enterprises built up and founded by the Jewish settlers during the time of the Mandate. I believe that the definition that was arrived at was someone who had worked in what is now known as Israel for a period of two years prior to 1948, they do not even have to provide proof of that temporary residency to support their claims - utterly ridiculous, and totally unacceptable.

- It is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to threaten and clearly state their hostile intent towards an independent sovereign state even to the point of repeatedly publicly declaring that they will never acknowledge the right of that state to exist, while at the same time it is the fault of Israel that they do not negotiate with those whose declared aim is the destruction of Israel - What on earth would be the basis for any meaningful negotiation?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM

This Morris?

Furthermore, in his comprehensive book on the Arab-Israeli conflict, Righteous Victims, Morris wrote:

"In some areas Arab commanders ordered the villagers to evacuate to clear the ground for military purposes or to prevent surrender. More than half a dozen villages—just north of Jerusalem and in the Lower Galilee—were abandonded during these months as a result of such orders"

"they would in no way have reduced the right of the refugees to return home one the immediate conflict was over."



Agreed-

- and how many of those refugees tried to return in 1948, at the end of the 1948 war? As opposed to those that stayed in the camps and waited for the entire land to be given to them?


- so you support the compensation of the GREATER number of Jews that were driven out of Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:07 AM

Benny Morris in that book I cited effectively dismantles the stuff about refugees from the war being the consequence of instructions from Arab governments, rather than the natural consequence of fighting and terror.

But in any case it is totally irrelevant. Even if the stories had been true they would in no way have reduced the right of the refugees to return home one the immediate conflict was over.

When people flee their home because of an official warning of an oncoming hurricane, that does not mean that they have forfeited the right to go home afterwards, and that they should have stayed put in their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

He explains these orders as follows:

"Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants 'treacherously' acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments. […] There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations"[61]

Furthermore, in his comprehensive book on the Arab-Israeli conflict, Righteous Victims, Morris wrote:

"In some areas Arab commanders ordered the villagers to evacuate to clear the ground for military purposes or to prevent surrender. More than half a dozen villages—just north of Jerusalem and in the Lower Galilee—were abandonded during these months as a result of such orders. Elsewhere, in East Jerusalem and in many villages around the country, the [Arab] commanders ordered women, old people, and children to be sent away to be out of harm's way. Indeed, psychological preparation for the removal of dependents from the battlefield had begun in 1946-47, when the AHC and the Arab League had periodically endorsed such a move when contemplating the future war in Palestine."[62]

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Additionally, the secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re­enter and retake possession of their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:00 AM

The Near East Broadcasting Station in Cyprus declared that "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem."[12]

Sir John Troutbeck, a British diplomat in Cairo, went to Gaza on a fact-finding mission in June 1949. He reported that while the Palestinian Arab refugees "express no bitterness against the Jews […] they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states. 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes."[13]

In the case of Ein Karem, William O. Douglas recorded that "the villagers were told by the Arab leaders to leave. It apparently was a strategy of mass evacuation, whether or not necessary as a military or public safety measure." From eyewitness accounts, Douglas found that this, along with fear of Jewish attack, was a key reason for the exodus from Ein Karem.[14]

Morris also documented that the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of "several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more in April-July 1948. "The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way." [15]

A May 3, 1948 Time Magazine article states:

The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city. More than pride and defiance was behind the Arab orders. By withdrawing Arab workers, their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa. Jewish leaders said wishfully: 'They'll be back in a few days. Already some are returning.'
'One entire jetty,' cabled TIME Correspondent Eric Gibbs, 'was packed with these refugees, sitting on their pathetic bundles or clutching them with the strength of despair. What did these simple, bewildered people seize in the moment of panic? A small Turkish carpet, a radio, a sewing machine were among the treasures. […] Hour after hour they sat, waiting for barges, British landing craft and other odd boats now doing ferry service across the blue bay to Acre.' Other thousands fled to the Arab-held hills near Nablus.[16]

Evidence such as this led Shmuel Katz to conclude in his book Battleground "that the Arab refugees were not driven from Palestine by anyone. The vast majority left, whether of their own free will or at the orders or exhortations of their leaders, always with the same reassurance-that their departure would help in the war against Israel."[17] He explains that "The Arabs are the only declared refugee group who became refugees not by the action of their enemies or because of well-grounded fear of their enemies, but by the initiative of their own leaders."[18]


[edit] Claims by Arab sources that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders
Former Prime Minister of Syria Khalid al-Azm recalled in his memoirs:

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees to their country, while it is we who made them leave it. […]
We brought disaster upon one million Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave their land, their homes, their work and their industry. We have rendered them dispossessed, unemployed, whilst every one of them had work or a trade by which he could gain his livelihood.[19]

After the war, a few Arab leaders tried to present the Palestinian exodus as a victory by claiming to have planned it. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Said was later quoted as saying: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."[20]

Contemporary Jordanian politician Anwar Nusseibeh believed that the fault for the exodus and military loss was with the Arab commanders:

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:37 AM

"The British hoped to establish self-governing institutions in Palestine, as required by the mandate. The Jews were alarmed by the prospect of such institutions, which would have an Arab majority. However, the Arabs would not accept proposals for such institutions if they included any Jews at all, and so no institutions were created. The Arabs wanted as little as possible to do with the Jews and the mandate, and would not participate in municipal councils, nor even in the Arab Agency that the British wanted to set up. Ormsby-Gore, undersecretary of state for the colonies concluded, "Palestine is largely inhabited by unreasonable people."

Arab Riots and Jewish immigration - In the spring of 1920, spring of 1921 and summer of 1929, Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. The violence led to the formation of the Haganah Jewish self-defense organization in 1920. The riots of 1920 and 1921 reflected opposition to the Balfour declaration and fears that the Arabs of Palestine would be dispossessed, and were probably attempts to show the British that Palestine as a Jewish National home would be ungovernable. The major instigators were Hajj Amin El Husseini, later Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and eventually a Nazi collaborator, and Arif -El Arif, a prominent Palestinian journalist. The riots of 1929 occurred against the background of Jewish-Arab nationalist antagonism. The Arabs claimed that Jewish immigration and land purchases were displacing and dispossessing the Arabs of Palestine. However, economic, population and other indicators suggest that objectively, the Arabs of Palestine benefited from the Mandate and Zionist investment. Arab standard of living increased faster in Palestine than other areas, and population grew prodigiously throughout the Mandate years. (see Zionism and its Impact). The riots were also fueled by false rumors that the Jews intended to build a synagogue at the wailing wall, or otherwise encroach upon the Muslim rule over the Temple Mount compound, including the Al-Aqsa mosque. The pogroms led to evacuation of most of the Jewish community of Hebron. . The British responded with the Passfield White Paper. The white paper attempted to stop immigration to Palestine based on the recommendations of the Hope Simpson report. That report stated that in the best case, following extensive economic development, the land could support immigration of another 20,000 families in total. Otherwise further Jewish immigration would infringe on the position of the existing Arab population. However, British MPs and the Zionist movement sharply criticized the new policy and PM Ramsay McDonald issued a "clarification" stating that Jewish immigration would not be stopped. "

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:32 AM

"Take the lie about the Arab countries telling the local non-Jewish Palestinians to leave until they could clear out the Jews"


Except that it is NOT a lie, as I have previously shown. I gave the references, who said it, wehen, and by what media.

So please try to NOT make false statements that have already been shown to be lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM

Obviously it's impossible to put right most of the injustices of history. But what can always be done is to acknowledge that injustice has been done, and that people today are victims of that injustice.

But in the case of refugees forced from their home by war or persecution there should normally be an option open to them of returning to that home if they choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

"The war had begun before May 15." - CarolC

No shit Sherlock!!!! Try telling us something that we do not already know.

By the bye CarolC, I loved this piece of emotive drivel:

"Israel had already been busy clearing out the civilian populations of most of the Arab cities before May 15."

Now you being a self-confessed objective seeker of truth CarolC, would all this clearing out of civilian populations, would that have occured before or after the Jews of Hebron had been "ethnically cleansed" on the nights of 23rd, 24th & 25th August 1929, I mean I know that you and some of your "fellow travellers" believe that the Jewish Community in question were only upstart "Johnny-come-lately's", having only lived in the place for more than 800 years. I mean hells teeth any Arab who had had a job in any part of Palestine in the two years before the end of the Mandate must have a "Right-of-Return" irrespective of his actual nationality, or whether he actually ever owned anything in "Palestine". But for some strange reason no "right-of-return" applies to the Jewish citizens of Hebron - Can you explain that to us CarolC. At the same time can you also explain another question studiously ducked in another Israeli/Palestinian Thread. Why is it perfectly acceptable for Syria to claim land taken by force of arms in 1948, but completely unacceptable for Israel to do the same with regard to land taken in 1967?

Even more twaddle from MGOH:

"even if they had been encouraged to leave the scene of conflict, in the way refugees in all wars do, this would in no way have removed their right to return home afterwards - a legal right of return, which has persistently been blocked by Israel, and which is today portrayed as being an extreme and totally unacceptable demand."

Wish to expand on that principle a little Kevin, or does it only apply to Israel and the Arab population who seek her destruction - Think carefully - both Ireland and Scotland could end up really crowded if "Right of Return" is applied throughout the world, plus some really interesting real estate deals would have to be pushed through the books.

Utter crap Kevin, the Arabs are trying to turn back the clock on their consistant failures for 60 years - the fantasy of limited liability wars just does not exist in the real world. They are grasping now at slightly less than was offered them in 1947, while attempting an infiltration in the hope of bringing down the State of Israel.

If you actually believe in "Right of Return" let's here you advocate as vociferously for the Aboriginals in Australia, the Native American Indians, etc, etc. Down through the long winding road that is history according to our 21st Century eyes I am sure that there are many wrongs that require to be put right - all we have to do is pay for them, right my little socialist Kev? Well dig out, I will not put one penny of mine to such retrospective bollocks, and quite rightly I would not for one minute expect the Israeli Government to do the same.

Right of Return and, or compensation to the 820,000 Jews deported from Arab countries? Come on Kev, come on CarolC, lets hear you shouting the odds for that cause. The world, or at least this forum, will be deafened by your silence, because the pair of you, plus quite a few others (Including one-post Guest Mushrooms) in this Forum, on this issue only drive down a One-Way Street. Bigotted, Biased, Hypocrits.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

typo__And not any at the start.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

Ah Carol C---you wrote:

The government of Israel uses these lies and distortions to justify its continued acts of aggression and its continued oppression of the Palestinians. The only way to make this stop is to correct this falsified version of history.

Any you are certainly the unbiased and authorotative figure to promulgate objective truth.


Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

The claim that Palestinians left their homes in 1948 under orders from the Arab states has in fact been demonstrated to be false propaganda, notably by Israeli historian Benny Morris (who is most emphatically in no way anti-Zioist) - in his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

In addition, of course, it is a totally irrelevant assertion - even if they had been encouraged to leave the scene of conflict, in the way refugees in all wars do, this would in no way have removed their right to return home afterwards - a legal right of return, which has persistently been blocked by Israel, and which is today portrayed as being an extreme and totally unacceptable demand.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

Most unbiased general history I have yet encountered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:22 PM

The "I don't like Israel" crew wear their hatreds with real pride, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:48 PM

The war had begun before May 15. Israel had already been busy clearing out the civilian populations of most of the Arab cities before May 15.

To wage a war against people but not call it a war until they respond is a lie. It was a war before May 15, Israel was the aggressor in that war, and the Arab armies fought to prevent Israel from taking any more land than it had already taken prior to May 15. Jordan even had an agreement with the Israeli leadership to split the land that had been given to the Palestinians between it and Israel.

Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:41 PM

The narrative that we have been given all this time has been the one that has been created and promoted by one side only, that of the Zionist leadership and the government of Israel. It is not an omission to correct the distortions and inaccuracies in that narrative without also reiterating those parts that are accurate. We already know the narrative from the perspective of the Zionist leadership and the government of Israel. It is time also to know the narrative from the perspective of what was experienced by the Palestinians as well as Israel's neighbors.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out where and in what way the narrative given us so far is wrong. If there is ever to be peace (rather than a desolation people call peace), those aspects of history that have been distorted and falsified need to be corrected.

Take the lie about the Arab countries telling the local non-Jewish Palestinians to leave until they could clear out the Jews. That lie is no less harmful to human beings than the lie of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is also no less hateful and racist. It is important to correct these lies, so that they can no longer be used to continue to promote hatred and discrimination.

The government of Israel uses these lies and distortions to justify its continued acts of aggression and its continued oppression of the Palestinians. The only way to make this stop is to correct this falsified version of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:56 AM

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/britishboycottisraelunionsacademicjournalistsjewishpalestine4848062007.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

"Preparations made by the Arab League

During the last meeting of the Arab League in February 1948, the Arab leaders expressed their convictions in the capacity of the Arab Liberation Army to help the Palestinians and to force the international community to give up on the UN-backed partition plan.[178] The following summit took place in Cairo on 10 April, with the situation having clearly developed with the death of Al-Hussayni and the debacle at Mishmar Ha'emek.

Once again, Ismail Safwat called for the immediate deployment of the Arab state armies at the borders of Palestine, and for the need to go beyond the established policy of participating in little more than small-scale raids towards taking part in large-scale operations. For the first time, the Arab leaders discussed the possibility of intervening in Palestine.[179]

Syria and Lebanon declared themselves ready to intervene immediately, but King Abdullah refused to let the Arab Legion forces intervene immediately in favour of the Palestinians, a move which irritated the Secretary-General of the League, who declared that Abdallah only cedes to the British diktat.

Nonetheless, Abdullah declared himself ready to send the Legion to assist the Palestinian cause after 15 May. In response, Syria insisted that the Egyptian army also take part, and, in spite of the opposition of Egypt's prime minister, King Farkouk responded favourably to the Syrian request, but due to his aim of curbing the Jordanians' hegemonic goals rather than his desire to help the Palestinians.[180]

Later on, following the visit of several Palestinian dignitaries in Amman, and despite the opposition of Syria and the Mufti, Hadj Amin Al-Hussayni, Azzam Pasha accepted Abdullah's proposition and sent Ismail Safwat to Amman to organise a coordination between the Arab Liberation Army and Jordan's Arab Legion. It was decided that command over the operations would be reserved for King Abdullah, and that the Iraqis would deploy a brigade in Transjordan to prepare for intervention on 15 May.[181]

On 26 April, the 'intention to occupy Palestine' was officially announced at the Transjordanian parliament and the Jewish people were 'invited to place themselves beneath King Abdullah's jurisdiction.' The intention to spare their lives was also promised. Yishuv perceived this declaration as being one of war and encourages the Western world to pressure the King, through diplomatic means, to prevent his intervention.[182]

On 30 April, Jordanians, Egyptians and Iraqis disputed the command of Abdullah. Abdullah received the honorary title of Commander-in-Chief, whilst the Iraqi general, Aldine Nur Mahmud, was named Chief of Staff. Despite this show of unity, it was agreed that each army would act independent of each other in the theatre of operations.[183]

On 4 May, the Iraqi task force arrived at Mafraq. It was composed of a regiment of armoured tanks, a regiment of mechanised infantry, and twenty-four artillery weapons, and included 1500 men.[184] The Egyptians formed two brigades, deploying around 700 men into the Sinai.[185] The Syrians could not put together a better force, whereas the Lebanese announced that they could not take part in military operations on 10 May.

It was only two days before, on 8 May, that the British Foreign Office was certain of the Arab invasion. Whereas British analysts considered that all Arab armies, except the Arab Legion, were not prepared for the engagements to come,[186] the Egyptian officers claimed that their advance would be 'a parade with the least risk,' and that their army 'would be in Tel-Aviv after just two weeks.'

The state of preparation of the army was such that they did not even have maps of Palestine.[187] At the time, the final plans of invasion had not even been established yet. British leaders tried in vain to make the Arab leaders reconsider their decision,[188] and Ismail Safwat resigned in indifference, but the Arab states seemed resolute. On 15 May 1948, the Arab League announced officially that it would intervene in Palestine to guarantee the security and right to self-determination of the inhabitants of Palestine in an independent state.[189] Azzam Pasha declared on Cairo radio: 'This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.'[190]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:30 AM

Contrary to the claim that the Arab League only tried to defend the area of Palestine that would have been the Moslim state had the Arabs accepted the partition:


"Syria had 12,000 soldiers at the beginning of the 1948 War grouped into three infantry brigades and an armoured force of approximately battalion size. The Syrian Air Force had fifty planes, the 10 newest of which were World War II-generation models.

On 14 May Syria invaded Palestine with the 1st Infantry Brigade supported by a battalion of armoured cars, a company of French R 35 and R 37 tanks, an artillery battalion and other units. On 15–16 May they attacked the Israeli village Tsemach, which they captured, following a renewed offensive, on 18 May. The village was abandoned following Syrian forces' defeat at the Deganias a few days later. Subsequently, the Syrians scored a victory at Mishmar HaYarden on 10 June after which they reverted to a defensive posture, conducting only a few minor attacks on small, exposed Israeli settlements.[84]"


They DID attack, but could not hold Israeli territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:42 AM

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM

My apologies, let me correct something I stated in my last post:

"not once in that 27 year period was there any instance of civil unrest caused by a Jewish attack on anybody."

Definitely not true as Lehi did attack British military targets both in Palestine and abroad from 1944 to 1947. They did not attack any Arab, Druze, Christian community in that period.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM

"As I said earlier, violent conflicts on all sides had been going on since the 1920s, reached a peak during 1936-1939, and then resumed again in the immediate post-war period." - Steve

In stating the above you are partially correct.

The unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews in 1920 and again in 1921 combined with the manner in which those atrocities were dealt with by the British, did not inspire the Jewish community with any confidence as to the quality of protection they could expect under British administration. That having been said, it must also be clearly stated that there were no Jewish acts of reprisal to the Arab attacks.

The Jewish leadership created the Haganah to protect their farms and Kibbutzim. Had the Arabs not attacked, or had the British dealt with the cause of the trouble, the Haganah would never have existed.

In addition to guarding Jewish communities, the role of the Haganah was to warn the residents of and repel attacks by Palestinian Arabs. In the period between 1920–1929, the Haganah lacked a strong central authority or coordination. Haganah "units" were very localized and poorly armed: they consisted mainly of Jewish farmers who took turns guarding their farms or their kibbutzim.

Once again in 1929 there were further unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs. In terms of scale and seriousness these were much fiercer than the earlier attacks, and caused Haganah's role to changed dramatically. If possible British handling of these riots and their aftermath were even more inept than before and this convinced the Jewish community that the only people that they could rely on for their own defence was themselves. Again please note Steve that none of the Arab attacks of 1929 were responded to by way of reprisal by the Jewish community.

Haganah was expanded, it became a much larger organization encompassing nearly all the youth and adults in the Jewish settlements, as well as thousands of members from the cities. It also acquired foreign arms and began to develop workshops to create hand grenades and simple military equipment, transforming from an untrained militia to a capable underground army.

Within Haganah there was an official policy of havlagah (restraint) that Jewish political leaders imposed on their militia. Fighters had been instructed to only defend communities and not initiate counter attacks against Arab gangs or their communities. But in the aftermath of the 1929 attacks a splinter faction that believed in reprisal attacks came into being in 1931, the name of this organisation was Irgun. Irgun could have viewed as the direct counterpart to the al-Qassam, "Black Hand Group", an anti-zionist and anti-British militant organisation, organized and established in 1930 by Izz ad-Din al-Qassam. He recruited and arranged military training for peasants and by 1935 he had enlisted between 200 and 800 men. The cells were equipped with bombs and firearms, which they used to kill Jews in the area, as well as engaging in a campaign of vandalism of the Jewish-planted trees and British constructed rail-lines. It was the death of Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British that sparked off what became known as the Great Arab Revolt.

At the start of the Great Arab Revolt 1936 -1939, Haganah fielded 10,000 mobilized men along with 40,000 reservists. It participated actively to protect British interests and to quell Arab rebellion using the FOSH, and then HISH units. Although the British administration did not officially recognize the Haganah, the British security forces cooperated with it by forming the Jewish Settlement Police, Jewish Auxiliary Forces and Special Night Squads, which were trained and led by Colonel Orde Wingate, who later during World War II would go on to lead "Chindit 1" and "Chindit 2" operations behind Japanese lines in Burma.

During the first stage of the Revolt, Irgun and the Haganah generally maintained a policy of restraint. From April 1936 until October of that year, 80 Jews were killed, 369 were injured, 19 schools were attacked, nine orphanages and three old-age homes. 380 attacks on trains and buses were carried out, and approximately 4,000 acres of agricultural land were destroyed. These actions were carried out by armed Arab gangs who were joined by Syrian and Iraqi reinforcements.

There was a lull in activity while the Peel Commission investigated the unrest and the British Army began taking more stringent measures to curb the attacks.

All in all Irgun carried out 60 reprisal attacks ("eye-for-an-eye") during the Great Arab Revolt, resulting in the deaths of some 250 Arabs, the Arab attacks over the same period had killed 320 Jews.

During the Second World War, the Jews generally sided with the Allies, although a splinter group from Irgun, LEHI or Stern gang, commenced actions against the British from 1944. The Arabs generally remained neutral or sided with the Axis powers.

The Peel Commission realised that there would never be a single Palestinian State and that a two State solution must be sought. After the end of the Second World War the UN arrived at the same conclusion. The offer was made on 29th November 1947 and rejected by the Arabs who then attacked the Jews on the 30th.

Responsibility for the actual instigation of violence in Palestine from 1st March 1920 (Tel Hai) up to and including the presentation of the UN proposal for a two state solution on 29th November 1947, can be firmly laid at the door of the Palestinian Arabs, not once in that 27 year period was there any instance of civil unrest caused by a Jewish attack on anybody.

Had the Palestinian Arabs accepted what was offered on 29th November 1947 - which was as near as damn it what they are asking for now - then none of the rest of it would ever have happened.

As previously stated 60 years of bloodshed and grief, all for something that was on the table for them to accept in 1937 (Peel Commission) and again in 1947 (UN Partition Plan).

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM

"As I said, the instances of violence go back to the 1920, reached a peak in the 1936-1939 period, and erupted again with the close of World War II. And as I also said, there were very serious divisions within the Palestinian Arab community, within the Jewish community in Palestine, among the Arab states, among the various Ziuonist organizations, and within the British government."

Agreed. All of this is true.

But my question stands:

HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM

As I said, the instances of violence go back to the 1920, reached a peak in the 1936-1939 period, and erupted again with the close of World War II. And as I also said, there were very serious divisions within the Palestinian Arab community, within the Jewish community in Palestine, among the Arab states, among the various Ziuonist organizations, and within the British government.

And now a story...

I once saw this old man in Jerusalem praying at the Western Wall. When I went back twenty-five years later, he was still in that same spot, still praying. So I went up to him and said, "Excuse me, old man, but I believe I saw you here twenty-five years ago. Am I right?"

And he answered, "Yes. I was here twenty-five years ago, and thirty year ago, and thirty-five. In fact, I have been at this same spot praying since June 11, 1967. I was fifty-five years old then, but still an army reservist, and my unit was called up for the Six Day War. On the day we liberated the Old City of Jerusalem, I came to this spot to pray, and I've been here every day since, hot or cold, rain or shine."

"That's amazing," I said. "But do you mind if I ask you one question. Is there something you've been praying for all these years?"

"Something I've been praying for?," he repeated. "Well, that's easy to answer. Yes, there is something I've been praying for, and that's peace. Peace between the Arabs and the Jews. Peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Peace between Israel and its neighbors. Peace among Christian, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, whatever, throught the world."

"Wow! That's incredible," I said. "Can you tell me how you feel after all these years?"

"How I feel?," he said with a slightly bitter smile. "You want to know how I feel? Well, I'll tell you how I feel. I feel like I'm talking to a fucking wall!"


You can decide for yourself the truthfulness of that story.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:35 AM

Frankly, I don't care what they do. I'm just sick and tired of paying for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:53 AM

NOTE:

"The Arab leadership repeatedly pressed the British to grant them national and political rights like representative government over Jewish national and political rights in the remaining 23% of the mandate of Palestine which the British had set aside for a Jewish homeland."

This is after the British took 77% of the Mandate Palestine area and formed the Moslim ( No Jewish citizenship allowed) MOSLIM Palestinian Homeland, in violation of the terms of the League of Nations Mandate.

So, HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine is enough for the Moslim Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:47 AM

"The British mandate over Palestine was due to expire on 15 May 1948, but Jewish Leadership led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared independence on 14 May. The State of Israel declared itself as an independent nation, and was quickly recognized by the Soviet Union, the United States, and many other countries, but not by the surrounding Arab states. Over the next few days, approximately 1,000 Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,000 Iraqi, 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded Israel. Four thousand Transjordanian troops, commanded by 38 British officers who had resigned their commissions in the British army only weeks earlier (commanded by General Glubb), invaded the Corpus separatum region encompassing Jerusalem and its environs, as well as areas designated as part of the Arab state by the UN partition plan. They were aided by corps of volunteers from Saudi Arabia, Libya and Yemen.

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, May 14, 1948 stated:

We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

In an official cablegram from the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the UN Secretary-General on 15 May 1948, the Arab states publicly proclaimed their aim of creating a "United State of Palestine" in place of the Jewish and Arab, two-state, UN Plan. They stated the UN plan was invalid, as it was opposed by Palestine's Arab majority, and maintained that the absence of legal authority made it necessary to intervene to protect Arab lives and property.[71] On the date of British withdrawal the Jewish provisional government declared the formation of the State of Israel, and the provisional government said that it would grant full civil rights to all within its borders, whether Arab, Jew, Bedouin or Druze."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:45 AM

"The British Peel Commission proposed a Palestine divided between a Jewish and an Arab State, but in time changed their position and sought to limit Jewish immigration from Europe to a minimum. This was seen by Zionists and their sympathisers as betrayal of the terms of the mandate, especially in light of the increasing persecution in Europe and was met with a popular uprising and guerrilla war from Jewish terrorist groups, often viewed as one of several factors that led the British to hand the problem over to the United Nations.

The UN, the successor to the League of Nations, attempted to solve the dispute, creating the UNSCOP (UN Special Committee on Palestine) on May 15, 1947. After spending three months conducting hearings and general survey of the situation in Palestine, UNSCOP officially released its report on August 31. A majority of nations (Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay) recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, with Jerusalem to be placed under international administration. A minority (India, Iran, Yugoslavia) supported the creation of a single federal state containing both Jewish and Arab constituent states. Australia abstained. On November 29, the UN General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favour of the Partition Plan, while making some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal. Both the United States and Soviet Union agreed on the resolution. In addition, pressure was exerted on some small countries by Zionist sympathizers in the United States.[70] The five members of the Arab League who were voting members at the time voted against the Plan, as did the United Kingdom.

The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention 29 November, the date of this session, as the most important date leading to the creation of the Israeli state.

Meeting in Cairo in November and December of 1947, the Arab League then adopted a series of resolutions aimed at a military solution to the conflict. The United Kingdom refused to implement the plan arguing it was not acceptable to both sides. It also refused to share with the UN Palestine Commission the administration of Palestine during the transitional period, and decided to terminate the Mandate on May 15th, 1948.[70][70]

Several Jewish organizations also opposed the proposal. Menachem Begin, Irgun's leader, announced: "The partition of the homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature by institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. The Land of Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever". His views were publicly rejected by the majority of the nascent Jewish state."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:44 AM

"The Arab leadership repeatedly pressed the British to grant them national and political rights like representative government over Jewish national and political rights in the remaining 23% of the mandate of Palestine which the British had set aside for a Jewish homeland."

"The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each side for its own reasons. In response to numerous Arab attacks on Jewish communities, the Haganah, a Jewish paramilitary organization, was formed on June 15, 1920 to defend Jewish residents. Tensions led to widespread violent disturbances on several occasions, notably in 1921, 1929 (primarily violent attacks by Arabs on Jews — see 1929 Hebron massacre) and 1936–1939. Beginning in 1936, several Jewish groups such as Etzel (Irgun) and Lehi (Stern Gang) conducted their own campaigns of violence against British military and Arab targets. This prompted the British government to label them both as terrorist organizations."

"There had already been rioting and attacks on and massacres of Jews in 1921 and 1929. During the 1930s Palestinian Arab popular discontent with Jewish immigration and increasing Arab landlessness grew. In the late 1920s and early 1930s several factions of Palestinian society, especially from the younger generation, became impatient with the internecine divisions and ineffectiveness of the Palestinian elite and engaged in grass-roots anti-British and anti-Zionist activism organized by groups such as the Young Men's Muslim Association. There was also support for the growth in influence of the radical nationalist Independence Party (Hizb al-Istiqlal), which called for a boycott of the British in the manner of the Indian Congress Party. Some even took to the hills to fight the British and the Zionists. Most of these initiatives were contained and defeated by notables in the pay of the Mandatory Administration, particularly the mufti and his cousin Jamal al-Husayni. The younger generation also formed the backbone of the organisation of the six-month general strike of 1936, which marked the start of the great Palestinian Revolt.[55]"

"The Great Arab Revolt (1936–1939)
The death of the Shaykh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British police near Jenin in November 1935 generated widespread outrage and huge crowds accompanied Qassam's body to his grave in Haifa. A few months later, in April 1936, a spontaneous Arab national general strike broke out. This lasted until October 1936. During the summer of that year thousands of Jewish-farmed acres and orchards were destroyed, Jews were attacked and killed and some Jewish communities, such as those in Beisan and Acre, fled to safer areas.[56] After the strike, one of the longest ever anticolonial strikes, the violence abated for about a year while the British sent the Peel Commission to investigate.[57]

In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed a partition between a small Jewish state, whose Arab population had to be transferred, and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan. The proposal was rejected by the Arabs and by the Zionist Congress (by 300 votes to 158) but accepted by the latter as a basis for negotiations between the Executive and the British Government.[58][59]

In the wake of the Peel Commission recommendation an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus, and Hebron. British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police,[60] suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force. The British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons[61]) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Jewish volunteers such as Yigal Alon, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley"[62] by conducting raids on Arab villages. The squads used excessive and indiscriminate force[63] The Jewish militias the Stern Gang and Irgun used violence also against civilians, attacking marketplaces and buses."

"The attacks on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: First, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah ("The Defense"), which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish land purchase and immigration. However, with the advent of World War II, even this reduced immigration quota was not reached. The White Paper policy also radicalized segments of the Jewish population, who after the war would no longer cooperate with the British.

The revolt had a negative effect on Palestinian national leadership, social cohesion and military capabilities and contributed to the outcome of the 1948 War because "when the Palestinians faced their most fateful challenge in 1947–49, they were still suffering from the British repression of 1936–39, and were in effect without a unified leadership. Indeed, it might be argued that they were virtually without any leadership at all".[66]"

"The Holocaust had a major effect on the situation in Palestine. During the war, the British forbade entry into Palestine of European Jews escaping Nazi persecution, placing them in detention camps or deporting them to places such as Mauritius.[69]

Starting in 1939, the Zionists organized an illegal immigration effort, known as Aliya Beth, conducted by "Hamossad Le'aliyah Bet", that rescued tens of thousands of European Jews from the Nazis by shipping them to Palestine in rickety boats. Many of these boats were intercepted. The last immigrant boat to try to enter Palestine during the war was the Struma, torpedoed in the Black Sea by a Soviet submarine in February 1942. The boat sank with the loss of nearly 800 lives. Illegal immigration resumed after WW II.

Eliyahu Hakim and Eliyahu Bet Zuri, members of the Jewish Lehi underground, assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo on 6 November 1944. Moyne was the British Minister of State for the Middle East. The assassination is said by some to have turned British Prime Minister Winston Churchill against the Zionist cause. The ban on illegal immigration continued.

As a result of the assassination of Lord Moyne, the Haganah kidnapped, interrogated, tortured and turned over to the British many members of the Irgun and Lehi. This period is known as the 'Hunting Season'. Irgun ordered its members not to resist or retaliate with violence, so as to prevent a civil war.

Following the war, 250,000 Jewish refugees were stranded in displaced persons (DP) camps in Europe. Despite the pressure of world opinion, in particular the repeated requests of US President Harry S. Truman and the recommendations of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry that 100,000 Jews be immediately granted entry to Palestine, the British maintained the ban on immigration. The Jewish underground forces then united and carried out several terrorist attacks and bombings against the British. In 1946, the Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of the British administration, killing 92 people.

Following the bombing, the British Government began imprisoning illegal Jewish immigrants in Cyprus. Those imprisoned were held without trial and included women and children. Most were holocaust survivors. The negative publicity resulting from the situation in Palestine meant the mandate was widely unpopular in Britain and caused US Congress to delay granting the British vital loans for reconstruction. At the same time, many European Jews were finding their way to the United States. An increasing growing influence in American politics, many Zionist backers won over sympathizers in the American and other Western governments. The Labour party had promised before its election to allow mass Jewish migration into Palestine. Additionally the situation required maintenance of 100,000 British troops in the country. In response to these pressures the British announced their desire to terminate the mandate and withdraw by May 1948."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:18 AM

Greetings:

What CarolC was talking about was the coordinated military action of the armed forces of several Arab states. That took place on May 15, 1948. I am not saying that I agree with her view of their aims, but let's not confuse that with the non-military, uncoordinated (or very poorly coordinated) actions of Arab civilians throughout Palestine on November 30, 1947.

Yes, the attacks of November 30 did take place. But they should not be seen in isolation. As I said earlier, violent conflicts on all sides had been going on since the 1920s, reached a peak during 1936-1939, and then resumed again in the immediate post-war period.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:20 AM

"On November 29 the UN General Assembly voted in favor of ending the mandate and establishing two states on the land. That very same day the Irgun and the Lehi renewed their attacks on British targets. Then next day the local Arabs began attacking the Jewish community, thus beginning the first stage of the Israeli War of Independence. The first attacks on Jews were in Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem, in and around Jaffa, Bat Yam, Holon, and Ha'Tikvah neighborhood in Tel Aviv."

Now what was it CarolC said again?

"The "Arabs" did not "attack" the newly formed State of Israel. Prior to Israel declaring its independence, Zionist forces had been engaging in massacres and other kinds of attacks on villages that were in the area that had been allotted to the Palestinians in the partition plan."

Doesn't quite pan out does it CarolC? Or are you saying that those Arab attacks of November 30th never happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:39 PM

"After we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine."

--David Ben-Gurion


"It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe"

--Joseph Weitz, director, Jewish National Land Fund 12/19/1940


"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

--Erskine Childers, British researcher


"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them."

--David Ben-Gurion, 1936


"(Israel) must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space."

--Moshe Dayan

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:12 PM

OH Great---here we go again---a war for survival becomes a war of expansion as explained by the resident expert historian.
I am out of here

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:33 PM

I was referring specifically to the hostilities during the period of 1948/49 in my 31 May 08 - 08:23 PM post. We are told that Israel declared its independence, and then the Arabs attacked. This is not true. Jewish paramilitaries had been committing massacres and ethnic cleansing in Arab villages both in the part of Palestine that was given to the Jews in the partition plan, as well as the part that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan, for months before Israel declared its independence...

Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.

--Henry Cattan, (Palestine, The Arabs and Israel)

After Israel declared its independence, the Arabs decided to step in and try to stop Israel from taking any more of the land that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. But almost all of the fighting took place in the areas that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. This is because the Arabs were not "attacking" Israel. They were defending the areas that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. This is historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM

I cannot resist this even though I was not going to get into this:

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace - PM
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:56 PM

Brooklyn.

Sure---who can afford any of the 5 boros anymore. Smart move!!!

On a more serious note---all things evolve and there is , surely, some fault on the Isaeli side not. But, historically, let us also recall the riots (pogroms if you will ) by the local population prior to the 1940s, let us also recall that HST recognized the State of Israel in 1948 (much against the advice of his anti-semitic state department) and the all hell broke loose when the Arab nations attacked. Let us also recall that Palestinians fled---and, at first, were urged not to by Israel and encouraged by the same Arab nations that now forbid them entry., let us also recall that David Ben Gurion understood the feelings of the Palestinians and said many a time that were he in their place he, too, would feel the right to return, and, finally let us recall that all the wars after that one were begun by the totally unorganized ( or is it disorganized) Arab nations.

Since all things evolve, including the history of the U.S., we have to understand that there are matters that are fixed in stone. We can only go by past history and, hopefully, the good intentions of people. Sadly, governments do not have good intentions. Governments have intentions of control and power. People have good intentions. People who are politicians become, what I believe, purveyors of governmental bad intentions---think Darfur, think Zimbabwe, think Germany (1930s---and prior), think Japan (1930s), and, yes, our own lying leadership---if you can call this administration leadership.

Carol C: I have to partially agree with you. The CHristians you speak of have their own agenda and, frankly, it is bizarre.   Of course, if one believes in this twaddle one can understand from whence they come.

          I am reminded of story a minister with whom I play tennis related--briefly---Gee---the Pope came to the U S and was decked out like he was a birthday party---Jesus wore sandals and rags.

Bill Hahn


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

BTW, don't call him a Limie [sic.] because that will piss him off.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

I could agree with you less, Zach, but I don't know how.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:12 PM

Teribus I never met a dude so blinkered in my entire life !
You are a crazy guy, this lady above has pulled holes in everything you said. Accept you lost the argument buddy and go pump Limie Propaganda somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

Suffet: That is the best post yet to this thread--with no offense implied or intended to other posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM

Greetings:

CarolC is only partly right. There were acts of violence on all sides, some going back to the early 1920s, but they became particularly numerous during the 1936-1939 period, and then again beginning with the end of World War II. Everyone can point to massacres and acts of terrorism commited by the others, and there is little use in trying to argue who were the aggressor and who were just defending themselves.

Please note that I say "all sides" rather than "both sides," because neither the Palestinian Arabs, nor the Jewish settlement in Palestine, nor the British mandatory authorities acted in a united way. There was serious, and sometimes violent, in-fighting within each group over tactics, strategy, ideology, and ultimate aims. Furthermore, there were serious divisions among the Arab states, and within the world Zionist movement. Nor was the Britsh Foreign Office of one mind.

As I have said before, peace can only come with reconciliation, and that means mutual recognition of one another's justices and injustices. I am very pessimistic that will ever happen. As someone told me the last time I was in Israel, "In the long run, the best we can hope for is our new ruler will be a Mandela, not a Mugabe." The one who said that wasn't joking.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:42 AM

CarolC - Your recollection of the historical events that covered the period from the end of the Second World War up to and including the declaration of the founding of the State of Israel are incorrect, conveniently one sided and biased beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:23 PM

The "Arabs" did not "attack" the newly formed State of Israel. Prior to Israel declaring its independence, Zionist forces had been engaging in massacres and other kinds of attacks on villages that were in the area that had been allotted to the Palestinians in the partition plan. After Israel declared its independence, the neighboring Arab countries stepped in to try to prevent Israel from taking any more of the land given to the Palestinians in the partition plan. Almost all of the fighting took place in the areas that were allotted to the Palestinians in the partition plan. They were trying to prevent Israel from taking all of the land that was given to the Palestinians in the partition plan, a goal that Israel is very close to accomplishing at this point in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:56 PM

Well thank you very much for pointing that out Guest Zach - care to be a little more specific? Or are you just trotting out the trendy party line?

So far on this thread:
- I have accurately pointed out that no rocket fired from Gaza could ever reach anywhere near Haifa. Dispute that all you will Guest Zach but you will be wrong.

- Are you telling me that under the definition of the The League of Nations mandate that the Jews currently residing in Israel are not Palestinians? You will have a bit bit of trouble with that one Guest Zach - best look at a few maps old son.

If you wish to debate specifics Guest Zach, only too pleased to oblige - but somehow I don't think that you will take me up on that - please prove me wrong, I'd look forward to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:31 PM

Interesting thread, some great points. Teribus, you are both ill-informed and clearly ignorant. You really do write some crap man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:08 PM

It most certainly did not Kevin, which was why the UN advanced the idea of partition that the Arabs resoundingly rejected. They subsequently fought and lost a war over it, and have been compalining about the result ever since.

Sorry old son, but if you voluntarily abandon negotiation and opt for force of arms, you then must then abide by the result. This MGOH is a fact of life. If for some strange reason you disagree with that - then you surely must believe that there is still hope for the Third Reich - I am sure that they heartily disagreed with the result of the Second World War.

With regard to the Arab - Israeli question. I most certainly don't disagree with the result - they were given a solution, they rejected that solution and resorted to war, they resorted to force of arms and lost - big boys rules - live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:43 PM

Article 2 of the Palestine Mandate:

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

Still hasn't happened has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:57 PM

Because a tree grew there.