BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:05 PM

Start with Israel. That's the one that seems to cause the most heartburn. Then, if that works out, go on from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:02 PM

On another thread about "Palestinian 'Facts'" I was checking some details about the Golan Heights and a possible Israeli/Syrian peace accord when I came across this:

"The Golan Heights were under military administration between 1967 and 1981. In that year, Israel passed the Golan Heights Law, placing the Golan Heights under civilian Israeli law, administration, and jurisdiction. Most non-Jewish residents of the Golan Heights, mainly Druze, refused to surrender Syrian citizenship, though Israeli citizenship was available to them.

In the 1999 elections, 773 residents of Ghajar and fewer than 700 residents of the 4 Druze villages were eligible voters. Syria continues to offer them benefits such as free university tuition.

In 2005 the Golan Heights had a population of approximately 38,900, including approximately 19,300 Druze, 16,500 Jews, and 2,100 Muslims. Jewish villages, including moshavim and kibbutzim, are consolidated municipally under the Golan Regional Council, and are inhabited by Israeli citizens. The Golan Muslims reside in the Israel-Lebanon border-straddling village of Ghajar. They accepted Israeli citizenship in 1981. The Druze reside in the villages of Ein Qinya, Buq'ata, Majdal Shams, and Mas'ada. Most are involved in farm work.

Both personal and business relations exist between the Druze and their Jewish neighbors; there is little tension between the two groups. As a humanitarian gesture, since 2005, Israel allows Druze farmers to export some 11,000 tons of apples to Syria each year, the first kind of trade ever made between Syria and Israel. Since 1988, Israel has allowed Druze clerics to make annual religious pilgrimages to Syria.

The Druze
Unlike Druze in Israel proper, fewer than 30% of the Druze of the Golan Heights are Israeli citizens; the remainder hold Syrian citizenship. The latter are permanent residents of Israel, and they hold a laissez-passer. The pro-Israeli Druze are ostracized by the pro-Syrian Druze. Reluctance to accept citizenship also reflects fear of ill treatment or displacement by Syrian authorities should the Golan Heights eventually be returned to Syria. According to "The Independent", most Druze in the Golan Heights live relatively comfortable lives in a freer society than they would have in Syria under the present regime. According to Egypt's Daily Star, their standard of living vastly surpasses that of their counterparts on the Syrian side of the border. Hence their fear of a return to Syria, though most of them identify themselves as Syrian. Ties to Syria are on the wane, and many have come to appreciate aspects of Israel's liberal-democratic society, although few risk saying so publicly for fear of Syrian retribution."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Riginslinger, why stop with Israel? There are many isolationist Americans who would say the same about the Balkans, Darfur, and other hot spots in the world. Let everyone fend for themselves. Disband the United Nations. Hell, let's just return to 1450.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:34 AM

I have read the pdf version of the study as lined here by Ghost. I guess I'm not as cynical as some of the response I've sen here; I find some real hope that a reasonable solution can be had long term, at least from responses of the general public. I was especially encouraged that respondents indicated they were, generally, more well disposed to the other side, than one might have thought given the rhetoric of leaders on both sides

Another interesting bit of information: of the Jewish respondents, over 80% were secular or practising, of non-Orthodox affiliation; of the Arabs, over 80% were Moslem.

One item I found problematic is that the Jewish interviews were by telephone (thereby skewing the sample to those who had telephones), while the Arab interviews were mostly in-person. One can speculate on the reasons for that.

Again, Ghost, thank you for posting this study,
John

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:21 AM

Actually, why should America care what goes on in Israel? Wouldn't most Americans be better off just to leave it alone, and let the Arabs and Israelis go off and to their own thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:07 AM

Israeli Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, even as volunteers. (Suffet)

From among non-Bedouin Arab citizens, the number of volunteers for military service—some Christian Arabs and even a few Muslim Arabs—is minute, and the government makes no special effort to increase it. Six Israeli Arabs have received orders of distinction as a part of their military service; of them the most famous is a Bedouin officer, Lieutenant Colonel Abd el-Amin Hajer (also known as Amos Yarkoni), who received the Order of Distinction. Recently, a Bedouin officer was promoted to the rank of Colonel.

from IDF

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Suffet
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:53 PM

Greetings:

The title to approximately 90% of non-governmental land in Israel is held by KKL (the JNF Land Trust) and is then leased long term to homeownners, housing developments, cooperatives, kibbutzim, village corporations, etc. The 14% that Ghost of Electricity cites is the portion directly administered by KKL.

Israeli Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, even as volunteers. Other non-Jews -- Druze, Armenians, Russian Christians, etc. -- are required to serve in the IDF, even if they don't want to.

By the way, I speak as a person who has close relatives living in Israel, mostly in the artists' village of Ein Hod, built on land confiscated from the local Arab population in 1948. At least they don't bullshit themselves about what happened. And yes, they built their house on land which the village leases from KKL.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:42 PM

And the Israelis would like to continue living in their home, too. Lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:32 PM

Of course Israeli Arabs would wish to continue live in what was Palestine. It's their home. The same goes for others who have been exiled from what is now Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:25 PM

Having read the contents of the report, I don't find anything in it that contradicts what I said in my previous post, however the Arab response to the question about greater integration of Arab citizens tends to support what I have said. They desire more integration. The Jewish response is noticeably less supportive of greater integration.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:00 PM

"I suspect that what the Israeli Arabs are saying is"

I suspect that you're commenting without having read the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:39 PM

They may not have that opportunity for long. They are being pressured to leave by exclusionary practices on the part of the Israeli government. These practices include refusing building permits, refusing essential utilities and services, and other discriminatory practices.

I suspect that what the Israeli Arabs are saying is that they would prefer to remain in their place of origin, just as the Palestinians in occupied Palestine are saying (they would rather live there, despite the military occupation, than live anywhere else), and not that they would prefer to live under the kind of government that they live under in Israel rather than the kinds of government that might be found anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:25 PM

Suffet,

I'm confused by elements of your statement: "I presume that most Israeli Arabs would prefer to change the system that among other things prevents them from owning homes on the 90% of the land controlled by the Jewish National Fund Land Trust, or which bars them from certain sensitive occupations, or which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces, or which consigns them and their children to separate and unequal schools."

Are you saying that 90% of the land in Israel is controlled by the Jewish National Fund?

In actual fact, it is 14%, not 90%.

If it were true that Arabs are barred from owning homes on JNF land, that actually constitutes less than 2% of Israel by my calculations.

The thing is, though, that the JNF land is almost all forest and parklands. Jews don't live on it either.

Did you know that JNF is actually a world leader in researching enviornmental sustainability?

Your statement that Arabs are not permitted to serve in the Israeli armed forces is not true. They are permitted to serve but are not required to. Some volunteer, most do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:01 PM

" which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces,"


Really?? My understanding of Israeli law is that they are not REQUIRED to serve in the military, but may if they wish. A slight difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Suffet at work
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:52 PM

The percentage is not surprising. Most black South Africans who lived under apartheid still wanted to remain in South Africa. It was and is their home land. That, however, does not mean they accepted the injustices of the system. Instead, they organized and fought to change the system, and in the end they were successful. I presume that most Israeli Arabs would prefer to change the system that among other things prevents them from owning homes on the 90% of the land controlled by the Jewish National Fund Land Trust, or which bars them from certain sensitive occupations, or which denies them the right to carry firearms and serve in the armed forces, or which consigns them and their children to separate and unequal schools. But that's just a guess. What do I know?

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:33 PM

Thank you for the PDF link, GoE. I'll check it out after lunch. Before you posted it, I emailed the author of the Study for amplifications. If I get a response, I'll share it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:22 PM

The link that I provided in the opening post to this thread is for a brief summary of the Harvard study.

Here is a link for the complete study.

The complete Hardvard study (PDF file)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:07 PM

Well, Riginslinger, if you've ever been to Israel, you'd know that the Jews of Israel and the Arabs of Israel get along remarkably well.

This study pertains to the Jews and Arabs within Israel proper; it's not talking about the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, claims all of Israel proper as part of its Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:04 PM

77% of the population against which apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide are being practiced would rather live in the country that is perpetrating these atrocities.

My goodness, what CAN they be thinking?

Maybe some of those "incessant posters" should clue them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM

All the Arabs NOT is Israel want to go there, too?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:59 PM

If that's the case, one has to wonder why there is so much ongoing conflict.

Subject: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:48 PM

As demonstarted in a newly-released Harvard study, and contrary to what certain incessant Mudcat posters would have us beleive, there is much common ground among Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews.

For example, "77 percent of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world."

Harvard University report on Israeli Arabs & Jews