the Independent on morris dancing

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:55 AM

The green man, eh? Can someone call Sedayne from the vasty deep?

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:51 AM

It could just suggest that stone masons were extremely skilled craftsmen with vivid imaginations.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: theleveller
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:22 AM

Ruth wrote:
"My personal hobby horse is the Green Man (or carved foliate head),and its re-invention as a "medieval nature spirit",as the BBC recently described it. I heard something similar on a tour of Lincoln Cathedral."

Ruth, I'd be interested to hear what you think the symbolism of the green man represents.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:06 AM

Ok I go along with all the lets all dance and have a great time stuff but then they have to make up fake histories. Is this because they don't have enough confidence in dancing for its own sake?

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:52 AM

I know a lot of Kurdish refugees in Stoke. They are notable for dancing while waving hankies, at the slightest provocation.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Dead Horse
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:47 AM

Wolfs Head are doing their thing, as are Long Man and every other morris side.
They do it for their own reasons and each has his own belief in why the dance is performed.
What appears to be a common misconception to some, is irrefutable fact to others.
It has always been so, and always will.
Why worry?
As long as they enjoy what they are doing, and bring enjoyment to the onlookers, if they should also promote a moment of introspection or a feeling that "something special" has been witnessed, then the purpose of the dance has been achieved.
Pagan? Christian? Moorish?
Just words. And you cannot describe music and dance in mere words.
You have to either do it, or see it. And thank your own gods that it still flourishes despite those who denigrate hanky waving, stick bashing, old men with beer bellies, and sexy young women dressed all in black.
Long may it continue - in ALL its guises.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:46 AM

A third way????? Heresy.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:38 AM

I dance and play for the Shergold side - I'm the older of the two younger musicians! I'll have a look tonight - the NHS are very anti - Facebook!

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:37 AM

As Duke Ellington said "There are two kinds of fool. Those who say 'This is old and therefore good' and those who say 'This is new and therefore better'".
Unfortunately nearly all folk journaism(from outside) follows the second line, so we always seem to get the dreary contrasting of fat/old/beer belly/tankard/red-faced/Cecil Sharp/folk police with young/relevant/experimental/innovative.
    I saw a very interesting group in Manchester at the New Islington/Urban Folk Festival last year. They were dancing to hiphop in shellsuits and baseball caps as far as I recall, and were very funny.And they were neither bearded/beer-bellied or neo-pagan/black-clad. There is a third way!

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:26 AM

"during Whitsun weekend there is a magic in the air that cannot be matched. Why else do people want to join the team but are too nervous to have a go? How come there are so many children that you catch glimpses of trying to match the steps? This kind of magic cannot be created by making up some rituals that are vaguely similar to those practiced years ago by our pagan ancestors. The magic is in human interaction, the 'rituals' we go through are very much based in the community as it is now, and evolve naturally, through friendship, having a laugh, and getting a bit pissed now and again."

Agreed - it is a magical weekend. I felt priveleged to be part of it again this year.

Joe - are you on Facebook? I've made a Fans of Bampton Morris group, with pictures, video etc from this year (and a bit from last year).

I don't know which side you dance with - my stuff is all of the Shergold side, but feel welcome to add to it.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:19 AM

THe comment in the article about playing in minor keys to be more soulful is a load of crap, it is just a sign of bad musicianship, in my opinion.

I was shocked when I first heard Shirley Collins's version of "The Blacksmith" on "Anthems in Eden" - it's a sweetly pretty song about the age-old themes of love, lust and disappointment, with the emphasis on the first two. I'd known it from Steeleye Span's version, in which it's a dark, ominous song about the inexorable truths of love, lust and disappointment, with the emphasis on the last one. It's all in the mode.

At the time I was rather young and had very little experience of any of this (getting back to my previous rant), so naturally I preferred the Steeleye Span version.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:14 AM

I don't think there's anything silly in hanky waving, it's an integral element of traditional Arab dabkas, requires a bit of skill.
The article was interesting to me because it showed the attitude of those goth sides. They sound silly, but it was a good read.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:07 AM

Ruth - thanks for coming, despite the weather our team had a great year. (im not sure my melodeon was too happy by the end of the day though)

I think its always a positive thing that new styles are developing but this rejection of the old Cotswold styles is a bit short sighted. I admit that sometimes I have danced at events and felt like a bit of a hanky waver, with one man and his dog watching, and therefore have danced with all the energy of an arthritic sloth. However during Whitsun weekend there is a magic in the air that cannot be matched. Why else do people want to join the team but are too nervous to have a go? How come there are so many children that you catch glimpses of trying to match the steps? This kind of magic cannot be created by making up some rituals that are vaguely similar to those practiced years ago by our pagan ancestors. The magic is in human interaction, the 'rituals' we go through are very much based in the community as it is now, and evolve naturally, through friendship, having a laugh, and getting a bit pissed now and again.

THe comment in the article about playing in minor keys to be more soulful is a load of crap, it is just a sign of bad musicianship, in my opinion. Also, rural communities are not dead, people just refuse to acknowledge them or believe in them anymore. Just because we dont all work on the land, we shouldnt go into mourning over the loss of community. Bampton may appear to be fairly unique but it doesnt have to be.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:57 AM

"A fair number of Cotswold sides (most?) have encouraged the old fertility rite nonsense"

Well, at Bampton there is the cake...and there's this sword that gets thrust through the cake...and if a woman eats the cake she is supposed to be more likely to fall pregnant...

Bu nobody takes that stuff seriously, do they? it's a bit of a laugh. The problem is that the notion of the fertility rite was propigated in Victorian times, by sources who were considered reputable at the time. That sort of thing takes a lot of de-bunking. My personal hobby horse is the Green Man (or carved foliate head),and its re-invention as a "medieval nature spirit",as the BBC recently described it. I heard something similar on a tour of Lincoln Cathedral. The problem is, once these things become part of popular culture, it's really hard to de-bunk them.

I was told recently that the Bacup Coco-nut dance was definitely brought to Lancashire by Cornish tin miners. when I argued that no one knows for sure where the dance originated or why, this person was unshakeable: "I know it for a fact, because one of the Coco-nutters themselves told me."

Unfortunately, even the people to whom the dances belong are happy to take on a little mythology, whether there's evidence for the particular theory or not. After all, everyone is curious about the origins of calendar customs and traditions, and it would be really lovely to be able to give a nice, pat answer when people ask...

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:33 AM

Volgadon,

You are quite right it was interestingbut:

"As for the pagan nonsense, the writer pointed out that it was the opinion of the goth sides"

A fair number of Cotswold sides (most?) have encouraged the old fertility rite nonsense and it has been as good as EFDSS / Morris Ring policy until recently

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:23 AM

I have to say, I wasn't all that excited about this piece when it first appeared. Most of the "goth" sides seem to be more in it for the fancy dress and the stick-clashing and the whoops and shreiking that seem to say "Look! Look over here! We're mad, us. And we're having a much better time than you." Embarrassing.

Having been to Bampton at the weekend, I have to say (IMHO) it's so much more inspiring than the faked-up, pagans-and-fertility-rites stuff. Great dancing, lots of younger members in the side, and not a single grown-up in face paint. And the interesting thing is, they look fantastic. The kit is simple, but it's got class. So many of these pagany sides with their completely OTT styling have the whiff of desperation about them...

I think an article on Bampton, given its long and fascinating history, would have been much more interesting... :)

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:43 AM

Les, the writer didn't state their own opinion, they pointed out the common stereotype of silly hanky waving in Cotswold sides, but didn't say that that was what Morris dancing is all about. As for the pagan nonsense, the writer pointed out that it was the opinion of the goth sides and included the Long Man side for contrast. I thought it was an interesting article.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:42 AM

If it gets people dancing it can't be bad, but it does sound un peu pretentious. I liked the bit towards the end about how the Long Man side are doing it "to have fun and keep the tradition alive". Bor-ring!

While I'm about it, that article makes a definite association between big scary important life-and-death stuff, on one hand, and young wouldbe pagans dressed in black on the other - poor old hanky-waving Long Man, all middle-aged(!) and church-going(!!) and dancing to entertain(!!!). I blame that Cecil Sharp, if he hadn't come along and prettified the tradition we'd all be sacrificing goats on Beltane Eve just like our ancestors did...

Well, tush and also pish, in the immortal words of Robert Robinson. Christenings, weddings, funerals - churches are (or used to be) the settings for some of the deepest and most powerful human experiences. As for middle age, it comes to all of us (if we're lucky) - and most people have seen a hell of a lot more of birth, death, love and loss at 50 than they had at 25. If something happens when people perform together (and I think it does), then it's going to happen just as much among people who've already lived a bit.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:29 AM

It repeats all the usual old rubbish about pre-christian and pagan fertility rites, none for which their is any evidence whatsoever. It also repeats the usual stereotypes of hankie waving old fools in Cotswold sides.

It really is tripe. If people want to do Goth Morris it's fine with me but please don't pretend it has any historical roots what so ever

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Cats
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:16 PM

Excellent Article! I have an everlasting memory of Wolfs Head and Vixen at Whitby a few years ago. They were dancing on the quay watched by half a dozen lads on BMX bikes who thought they owned the place. After watching WH&V for a couple of dances they just looked at each other and said, 'They're weird'. One other replied, 'They're scary'. Right both times.

Subject: RE: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:57 PM

And NOT Mickey taking either !

Subject: the Independent on morris dancing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:42 PM

For once an article about morris dancing in an English newspaper where the reporter has actually gone to see it:

the Independent on Goth morris