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English Folk Degree?

WalkaboutsVerse 30 May 08 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 May 08 - 12:23 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 12:40 PM
Gedpipes 30 May 08 - 12:46 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 12:51 PM
Grab 30 May 08 - 12:55 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 May 08 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 May 08 - 01:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 May 08 - 01:18 PM
irishenglish 30 May 08 - 01:18 PM
Ruth Archer 30 May 08 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,JM 30 May 08 - 01:25 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 01:40 PM
Jack Blandiver 30 May 08 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 May 08 - 02:43 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 02:45 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 May 08 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 30 May 08 - 03:11 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 03:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 May 08 - 03:45 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Sue Allan 30 May 08 - 04:24 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 04:28 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 30 May 08 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster 30 May 08 - 05:07 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 05:07 PM
Sue Allan 30 May 08 - 05:36 PM
Sue Allan 30 May 08 - 05:39 PM
Def Shepard 30 May 08 - 05:44 PM
glueman 30 May 08 - 06:00 PM
melodeonboy 30 May 08 - 06:08 PM
Sue Allan 30 May 08 - 06:12 PM
Jack Blandiver 31 May 08 - 04:29 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 May 08 - 05:14 AM
Howard Jones 31 May 08 - 05:33 AM
Jack Blandiver 31 May 08 - 06:36 AM
Sue Allan 31 May 08 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Graveyard 31 May 08 - 07:32 AM
Howard Jones 31 May 08 - 08:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 May 08 - 08:44 AM
Howard Jones 31 May 08 - 09:55 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 May 08 - 10:41 AM
Def Shepard 31 May 08 - 11:44 AM
Howard Jones 31 May 08 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Graveyard 31 May 08 - 11:52 AM
glueman 31 May 08 - 12:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 May 08 - 12:26 PM
Def Shepard 31 May 08 - 12:35 PM
Def Shepard 31 May 08 - 12:37 PM
Howard Jones 31 May 08 - 12:54 PM
glueman 31 May 08 - 12:55 PM
irishenglish 31 May 08 - 04:44 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 May 08 - 05:07 PM
Def Shepard 31 May 08 - 05:14 PM
Def Shepard 31 May 08 - 05:19 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 31 May 08 - 05:38 PM
Def Shepard 31 May 08 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Graveyard 31 May 08 - 06:34 PM
Suegorgeous 31 May 08 - 07:52 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 03:37 AM
Jack Blandiver 01 Jun 08 - 04:33 AM
Jack Blandiver 01 Jun 08 - 04:36 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 05:21 AM
Barry Finn 01 Jun 08 - 05:50 AM
Barry Finn 01 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM
Jack Blandiver 01 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM
Howard Jones 01 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM
GUEST 01 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 08 - 02:30 PM
Howard Jones 01 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM
Jack Blandiver 01 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Jun 08 - 03:46 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 04:13 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM
Howard Jones 01 Jun 08 - 04:55 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 05:00 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM
TheSnail 01 Jun 08 - 05:08 PM
Howard Jones 01 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM
Barry Finn 01 Jun 08 - 05:33 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 05:40 PM
Howard Jones 01 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 01 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM
Barry Finn 01 Jun 08 - 07:06 PM
peteglasgow 01 Jun 08 - 07:30 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Jun 08 - 02:37 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Jun 08 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 02 Jun 08 - 04:09 AM
glueman 02 Jun 08 - 04:54 AM
Terry McDonald 02 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 05:43 AM
Jack Blandiver 02 Jun 08 - 05:46 AM
glueman 02 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,JM 02 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM
glueman 02 Jun 08 - 06:03 AM
Phil Edwards 02 Jun 08 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 02 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 06:56 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Jun 08 - 07:08 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 07:14 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 07:27 AM
Banjiman 02 Jun 08 - 07:34 AM
glueman 02 Jun 08 - 07:37 AM
Saro 02 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM
Jack Blandiver 02 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 09:48 AM
Phil Edwards 02 Jun 08 - 09:49 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 09:58 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM
Jack Blandiver 02 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 02 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM
GUEST 02 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Jun 08 - 11:50 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,JM 02 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 02 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 02 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM
Trevor Thomas 02 Jun 08 - 12:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Jon 02 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM
Phil Edwards 02 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,Jon 02 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Jon 02 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM
Howard Jones 02 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM
irishenglish 02 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM
irishenglish 02 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 05:09 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Jun 08 - 05:33 PM
Phil Edwards 02 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM
Phil Edwards 02 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM
Howard Jones 02 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM
Howard Jones 02 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM
Def Shepard 02 Jun 08 - 06:10 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Jun 08 - 06:30 PM
The Sandman 02 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 08 - 03:32 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Jun 08 - 06:44 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jun 08 - 07:29 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Jun 08 - 08:10 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 08:45 AM
Deeps 03 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 03 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM
Phil Edwards 03 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 09:36 AM
Jack Blandiver 03 Jun 08 - 09:44 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Jun 08 - 10:43 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,ESAM 03 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 12:11 PM
Banjiman 03 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 12:27 PM
The Sandman 03 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM
The Sandman 03 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Skaskinfolkie 03 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Jun 08 - 02:28 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Skaskinfolkie 03 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 03:14 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 03:20 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 03 Jun 08 - 03:34 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 03:35 PM
peregrina 03 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 03:41 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Referee 03 Jun 08 - 04:03 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 04:10 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 04:17 PM
Sue Allan 03 Jun 08 - 04:31 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 04:40 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jun 08 - 04:41 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM
Phil Edwards 03 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM
Sue Allan 03 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM
The Sandman 03 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM
irishenglish 03 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM
Peter Beta 03 Jun 08 - 05:05 PM
The Sandman 03 Jun 08 - 05:06 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM
oggie 03 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM
glueman 03 Jun 08 - 05:20 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 05:35 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jun 08 - 05:40 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 03 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM
Sue Allan 03 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jun 08 - 06:21 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 06:29 PM
Def Shepard 03 Jun 08 - 06:31 PM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM
Sue Allan 03 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM
The Sandman 03 Jun 08 - 07:15 PM
melodeonboy 03 Jun 08 - 07:39 PM
Peter Beta 04 Jun 08 - 02:15 AM
glueman 04 Jun 08 - 02:30 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Jun 08 - 03:12 AM
stallion 04 Jun 08 - 03:29 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,JM 04 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 04 Jun 08 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Jon 04 Jun 08 - 07:09 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM
Sue Allan 04 Jun 08 - 08:15 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM
Sue Allan 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM
Sue Allan 04 Jun 08 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 08:49 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Referee 04 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,referee 04 Jun 08 - 09:32 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Jun 08 - 10:21 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 11:12 AM
Ruth Archer 04 Jun 08 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 11:52 AM
glueman 04 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM
Ruth Archer 04 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 04 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 04 Jun 08 - 12:24 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM
Jack Blandiver 04 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM
TheSnail 04 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM
melodeonboy 04 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM
TheSnail 04 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Jon 04 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Jon 04 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 04 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM
TheSnail 04 Jun 08 - 02:03 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM
TheSnail 04 Jun 08 - 02:39 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Referee 04 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 03:48 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 03:54 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,Referee 04 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 04:31 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jun 08 - 04:46 PM
TheSnail 04 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,Referee 04 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM
Ruth Archer 04 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM
TheSnail 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 06:03 PM
glueman 04 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM
Don Firth 04 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM
Howard Jones 04 Jun 08 - 06:21 PM
Def Shepard 04 Jun 08 - 06:25 PM
glueman 04 Jun 08 - 06:30 PM
Howard Jones 04 Jun 08 - 06:31 PM
Howard Jones 04 Jun 08 - 06:41 PM
glueman 04 Jun 08 - 06:49 PM
Gene Burton 04 Jun 08 - 07:01 PM
irishenglish 04 Jun 08 - 10:28 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 08 - 02:46 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 03:18 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 04:39 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 05:01 AM
Sue Allan 05 Jun 08 - 05:05 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 08 - 05:06 AM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 05:11 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 05:17 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 05:23 AM
Sue Allan 05 Jun 08 - 05:25 AM
Sue Allan 05 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 05:39 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 AM
glueman 05 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM
glueman 05 Jun 08 - 06:37 AM
Folkiedave 05 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM
Jack Blandiver 05 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster 05 Jun 08 - 07:03 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM
Jack Blandiver 05 Jun 08 - 07:36 AM
GUEST 05 Jun 08 - 08:07 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 08 - 08:25 AM
Jack Blandiver 05 Jun 08 - 09:01 AM
George Papavgeris 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM
Jack Blandiver 05 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,21centuryfolkie 05 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM
The Sandman 05 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 10:28 AM
irishenglish 05 Jun 08 - 10:32 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 10:56 AM
Jack Blandiver 05 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM
irishenglish 05 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster 05 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 08 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,21centuryfolkie 05 Jun 08 - 12:10 PM
irishenglish 05 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM
Jack Blandiver 05 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 01:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 02:20 PM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,ESAM 05 Jun 08 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Student 05 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 03:06 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM
Howard Jones 05 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,21centuryfolkie 05 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM
glueman 05 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM
irishenglish 05 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,221Centuryfolkie 05 Jun 08 - 03:55 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,21centuryfolkie 05 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 04:06 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 04:09 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 04:11 PM
glueman 05 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM
Don Firth 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,WAVWATCH 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM
Phil Edwards 05 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM
Sue Allan 05 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM
Howard Jones 05 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM
Sue Allan 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM
Def Shepard 05 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM
Master Baiter 05 Jun 08 - 06:37 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jun 08 - 06:40 PM
The Sandman 05 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jun 08 - 06:59 PM
Tootler 05 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 08 - 11:14 PM
Master Baiter 05 Jun 08 - 11:47 PM
Gene Burton 06 Jun 08 - 02:25 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Jun 08 - 05:17 AM
Ruth Archer 06 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,yayaya 06 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM
TheSnail 06 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM
mattkeen 06 Jun 08 - 09:17 AM
johnadams 06 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM
trevek 06 Jun 08 - 09:40 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Jun 08 - 09:40 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Jun 08 - 09:46 AM
GEUST 06 Jun 08 - 10:30 AM
GEUST 06 Jun 08 - 10:42 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM
Jack Blandiver 06 Jun 08 - 12:30 PM
Jack Blandiver 06 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Jun 08 - 12:49 PM
GUEST 06 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM
Don Firth 06 Jun 08 - 01:39 PM
Def Shepard 06 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM
Phil Edwards 06 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM
GEUST 06 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM
Howard Jones 06 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM
Def Shepard 06 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM
trevek 06 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Ruth Archer 06 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM
GEUST 06 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM
trevek 06 Jun 08 - 03:29 PM
Def Shepard 06 Jun 08 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Jon 06 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM
Jack Blandiver 06 Jun 08 - 04:31 PM
Def Shepard 06 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM
GUEST 06 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM
Ruth Archer 06 Jun 08 - 05:09 PM
Def Shepard 06 Jun 08 - 05:19 PM
Jack Blandiver 06 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,GEUST[not arsed loggin in] 06 Jun 08 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,GEUST[not arsed loggin in] 07 Jun 08 - 02:31 AM
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Subject: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:16 PM

From here: "I think it's good that students at Newcastle upon Tyne can do a Degree in Folk and Traditional Music, but I wish it was a Degree in English Traditional and Contemporary Folk Music – to match Glasgow's Degree in Scottish Traditional Music, and Limerick's Degree in Irish Traditional Music and Dance."


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:23 PM

A degree in Eng Trad would be nice, but I don't think any mudcatters really have pull with the UCAS.
Do you have any practical suggestions?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:40 PM

For a far more reliable source please visit the following:

Folk and Traditional Music BMus Honours


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Gedpipes
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:46 PM

One problem with that degree I think is that is it not possible to take grades in some tradtional instruments?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:51 PM

The course outline is here

Folk and Traditional Music BMus Honours course outline


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Grab
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:55 PM

Do the participants of the degree wish it was a specifically English folk degree? That's the real question. Whatever your ideology regarding folk music, you're not taking the course and they are.

Given that British Isles folk music has always been incredibly intermixed, with tunes travelling fairly freely between countries, I'm reminded of the joke about the med-school student talking to his tutor.

"I think diseases of the ear, nose and throat are very different," says the student, "so I plan on specialising in diseases of the nose."

"Is that a fact?" says the doctor. "And which nostril were you thinking of specialising in?"

Graham.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:57 PM

I've seen quite a few final recitals from this degree, and thought that the quality has been very good and the selection poor - i.e., for a folk degree within the borders of England there has not been anywhere near enough E-trads.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:11 PM

But WAV, a degree is one thing, but a good performer forms his own repertoire along the way.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:18 PM

But Volgadon, via satellite, I've also seen some recitals from the SCOTTISH Traditional Music Degree in Glasgow, and all/nearly all they performed was indeed Scottish...why can't we have that in England?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:18 PM

WAV-my basic understanding of this is that you are right, there should be such a thing. See? we can agree on things WAV. I wish you had answered my questions in the other thread, but we'll let that go as this is a new topic.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:19 PM

*curls up in a corner and weeps quietly*


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:25 PM

Seeing as we seem to have reached a consensus on the last thread, can we just let this one drop to the bottom? Don't feed the troll.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:40 PM

I am going to add one more thing and personally allow this repeat thread to drop through the floor. IF you can be bothered reading the course outline, you'll see that there is more covered than your precious English Traditional, the course being far more broadminded and open. It don't matter, to me, what the course is named, the music will survive regardless, and I will continue to play the music, now, if you'll excuse me I think I'm going to put on The Albion Dance Band.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:31 PM

For many of us the idea of an English Folk Degree is not of any immediate relevance or practicality, but there is always so much to learn outside, and irrespective of, academia. As a resolutely non-academic for whom the appeal of Folk Music has always been its essential non-academic empiricism, I might despair over any sort of folk music degree course at all simply because it has no immediate relevance to me personally, nor indeed to my innumerable fellow folkies whose passion & commitment to this music has kept it going on a grass-roots level since year zero. I'm hearing good things though, and would hope young singers are coming up irrespective of what they might be doing at university, or indeed, if university is an option at all.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:43 PM

Anyway, WAV, can you offer any practical suggestions? If not, this seems like a pointless thread, almost like asking people if they thought more folk recordings was a good idea.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:45 PM

English folk recordings please :-D (sorry)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:07 PM

To Volgadon - simply learn from the Scots and the Irish and have an ENGLISH folk degree, rather than a (if you'll pardon my French) laissez faire "Folk degree."


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:11 PM

What I mean is, why have a thread about it? Not one person here can do more than say 'yes, it's a good idea'.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:15 PM

WAV said, "laissez faire "Folk degree." How dare you! This BMus programme is one of the best things to happen in a very long time and YOU sit there and pronounce judgement on it. You aren't even remotely qualified, dearie, so get off your high horse!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:45 PM

If an Englishman starts the "Traditional" degree doing his own songs with a guitar (rather than an English cittern), and 4 years later, at his final recital, does only his own songs with his guitar - without learning/performing one E. trad - is the course "one of the best things to happen in a very long time" (DS)?...Or are the lecturers and tutors not doing their job. That's what I mean by "laissez faire folk degree" (above).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:52 PM

WAV said, "does only his own songs with his guitar - without learning/performing one E. trad"

So...what's the problem?

and yes the programme is the best thing to happen in a long time


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Well, speaking as one who recently gave a presentation on the music of Cumbria to the students on the course - as part of a module on The Music of the North East and Borders (stretching a point, including Cumbria I suppose, but the north of the county has always been 'the debateable land'- sometimes Scottish, sometimes not.

Many of these students eagerly took away the photocopies I brought of manuscript fiddle tunebooks from Cumbria, so I guess they'll be playing some of them. But actually many of those tunes are versions of Irish and Scottish tunes - or are the Irish and Scottish tunes variants of English versions? Who knows? They were all mixed up in the 18th and 19th centuries, so they've no racial purity ... much as WAV might want such a thing.

What a nonsense to imagine that the English, Irish and Scottish traditions are discrete entities! It's never historically been so, so why should it be now?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:28 PM

Thank You, Sue! Finally someone who's there, on the ground, and knows what they're talking about, now your presentation is something I would love have attended, fiddle (shock, horror scandal! an electric fiddle :-D) being my first instrument, and me still in the throes of learning.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:02 PM

We're talking cultural NOT "racial" here, Sue; And, as to your "What a nonsense to imagine that the English, Irish and Scottish traditions are discrete entities! It's never historically been so, so why should it be now?"...do you, then, think the names of the degrees in Glasgow and Limerick should not have the words "Scottish" and "Irish", reapecitvely?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:07 PM

Strewth, cobber! Give it a bone, will ya?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:07 PM

Sue was talking cultural, so, please don't play the racial card, you're the least qualified to be doing that. Does saying the pot calling the kettle black come to mind?
I go with Sue, she, at least, knows what she's talking about, having, as I said, been there.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:36 PM

As someone who has studied anthropology, or sociology, will of course know, cultures (or nation) which have been subsumed into a greater whole, under a greater power, such as historically has been the case with (Northern) Ireland and Scotland as part of the British Isles with those countries seeking to define themselves against the hegemony of England. England has not, historically, felt the same need. Its strength has been, in fact, its ability to absorb and adapt and re-present in an English context a hotch potch of different influences.

Cultural differences in the British Isles, in terms of traditional music, may well be more indicative of what Benedict Anderson calls 'Imagined Communities' than geographically bounded, or racially constituted, communities.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:39 PM

Sorry, some cutting and pasting made my first sentence nonsense ... the point I was trying to get over was that those countries with less power (eg Scotland) will always seek to define themselves AGAINST the hegemonic power of England


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:44 PM

Re: 'Imagined Communities' Thanks Sue, much information here to seek out and digest.
I wonder if the same can be said for WAV, who allegedly has a degree in the Humanities in anthropology...well that's what he says anyway.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:00 PM

I'm all for education, me. Huddersfield University turns out some of the bangingest grooves at the Contemporary Music Festival and keeps Radio 3 going throughout the winter months. I was a lecturer for about a decade (not in music or at Hudds) and only got out when I realised my erstwhile charges were earning more in a day than I did in a year.
Still, let's not let inverted snobbery get in the way of a good rant.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:08 PM

What you say is, of course, absolutely true, Sue. And I do respect the fact that you are actually there involved in it all, and therefore obviously know your onions.

The comments in your last post are applicable politically. I do, however, wonder whether when it comes to music, the power relationship is actually reversed, i.e. that English traditional music might be seen as a poor cousin in comparison to the other two in terms of relative participation, recognition (certainly internationally), cultural definition and possibly in terms of sponsorship.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:12 PM

You're right melodeonboy, there has certainly been more international recognition of Irish and Scottish music. Perhaps because there is a large Scottish/Irish diaspora? It's a very interesting question. Irish music in particular has been much more successful at promoting its image internationally. I have no answers as to why that should be the case and would be interested to hear what others think ...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:29 AM

The Scottish/Irish diaspora feeds back into England too. Many of the Irish who were brought over as scab labour in 1926 stayed on, though in certain Durham villages bad feelings linger. An old friend of mine, for example, never dared tell her mother she'd converted to Roman Catholicism. These bad feelings aren't racial, or even cultural, rather they are political, for the best & worst of reasons. I once met an old Irish man who told me how he'd come over as a young man in 1926 and had been beaten up so badly he'd ended up in hospital; a delegation of miners came to see him, having raised enough money for his passage home, explaining their cause & presenting him with a copy of The Manifesto of the Communist Party!

The old Newcastle song A U Hinney Burd mentions the Castle Garth for tailors referring to the innumerable tailors who had their shops on the Castle Garth Stairs leading from the castle to the quayside, many of whom were Irish, and one of whom was my great-great-grandfather, newly arrived from Dublin. Strong Irish traditions on Tyneside - didn't John Doonan live out near the Felling? In the North-West of course, things are very Irish indeed, with marked Irish influences on both the culture and spirituality of the region, and as one small-time hotelier recently told me: there's more Scots living in Blackpool than there are in Edinburgh. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but at times one wonders why we bother having borders at all. I'm presently a member of the of IoNAJHA - the Islands of the North Atlantic Jew's harp Association. I like that a good deal; this is my home, The Islands of the North Atlantic!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:14 AM

I think the idea that it's okay/cool/expected for Scotland to be Scottish, and Ireland to be Irish, but not for England to be English is definitely wrong; all the pre-war imperialism of our forebears was wrong, but so is the post-war neglect of our own good English culture...

Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:33 AM

The Irish and Scottish courses are, by defining themselves in terms of Irish and Scottish traditional music, narrow and inward-looking.

Should we not be celebrating the fact that an English university is offering a folk degree which is more outward-looking and willing to embrace ideas from elsewhere? The very characteristics, in fact, which made England great.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:36 AM

The very characteristics, in fact, which made England great

I suppose the point is that cultures are largely illusory on account of our ongoing inability to see the trees for the wood; if one adopts a more ethnomethodological approach then we might clarify what might be going on here. There is no culture without people, and there is no folk culture, in the sense we understand it here on Mudcat with our notions of folk music etc, that has any bearing whatsoever on the everyday lives of the vast majority of English Folks. So even if it was true that it is the rest-of-the-world's good wish / To sense culture that is English, it certainly would not involve Morris Dancing which most English Folk would see as at best a cliché of eccentric anachronism and at worst a risible embarrassment. There is no such thing as our own good English culture, certainly not in the sense that it is being used here.

Anyhoo - it's half eleven & the sun is shining & all is well - hope it is wherever you lot are too; so enjoy the day. Just a shame The Pierrotters aren't at Blackpool's North Pier this weekend - now there's English Culture which everyone can & does enjoy!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:50 AM

Dear WAV, instead of pontificating here on subjects of which you have only the sketchiest ideas, you might consider doing some reading about the issues. I would suggest, to start with:

The Study of Folk Music in the Modern World - Philip Bohlman
Folk Song: Tradition, Revival and Re-Creation – Ian Russell & David Atkinson (ed)
Singer, song and scholar – Ian Russell (ed)
The Imagined Village - Georgina Boyes
The Invention of Tradition - Eric Hobsbawm & Terence Ranger (ed.)
Imagined Communities - Benedict Anderson
The Invention of 'Folk Music' and 'Art Music' - Matthew Gelbart
If you fancy going head to head with another polemicist, of a very different persuasion, then try Fakelore by Dave Harker.
And of course there are also the excellent annual Folk Music Journals published by the English Folk Dance & Song Society – plus further bibliographies on the EFDSS website with plenty of other suggestions for you.
(No cost need be involved in any of this: all available from libraries - and your local library can get any book via inter library loan)

If you have issues about the Newcastle course, then I suggest it would be much more productive for you to contact the director of the course with your concerns, Vic Gammon, than sounding off on Mudcat. His email is vic.gammon@ncl.ac.uk I'm sure he would be happy to explain the rationale of the course and give you more detail. Vic is of course not only a well-respected and widely published academic, but is also well-known on the folk scene as a performer of English traditional song and instrumental music and has made numerous recordings.

Sedayne - you're right: it's too nice a day to stay in ... I'm off for lunch outside then a walk up Latrigg!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Graveyard
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:32 AM

Why do people keep falling for these threads?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:16 AM

Because there's a strange fascination in watching WAV trying to justify the bollocks he writes without recourse to a single coherent argument which he can back up with facts.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:44 AM

To Sue: some of the above that you ASSUMED I have not read, I have, but thanks. I've already had discussions/arguments with Vic Gammon, via (private) email, so I'm not going to publish his thoughts here; we have also been at the same singarounds and gigs; and I know of something of his academic career and essays (I, too, have written a few - with distinctions, by the way, Howard.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 09:55 AM

WAV, you keep going on about your academic successes, and I'm not doubting you. However there's little evidence of rigourous thinking in your postings on Mudcat or indeed on your website. A university education used to be about teaching you how to think and how to present an argument. Perhaps that's no longer the case.

You make statements as if they're self-evident. You make no real attempt to persuade us of their merits. When people put forward reasoned arguments against your propositions, you don't engage with them or produce facts to refute them, you just repeat yourself and refer to the ramblings on your own website in justification.

If you want us to take you seriously, then come to us with reasoned opinions rather than prejudices, and with arguments and facts to support them. When arguments and facts are put forward to refute your views, then reply with a reasoned argument, or be prepared to alter them. Then we can have a proper debate.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:41 AM

Here's something, Howard and all - really a reminder more than a message, as many folk-organisers of the 50s and 60s advocated the same - I would strongly suggest for all within and without any folk degree: APPRECIATE OTHER CULTURES BUT PRACTISE/PERFORM YOUR OWN. I, e.g., whilst learning the recorder came across a beautiful tune/song called "My Bonnie" which, once confirmed as Scottish, I now ignore. Here it is, in G, in my shorthand, FOR SCOTTISH EYES ONLY...

DBAGAGEDB
DBAGGF#GA
DBAGAGEDB
DEAGF#EF#G

DGEA
F#F#F#F#EF#GAB
DGEA
GF#F#F#F#EF#G


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:44 AM

You ignore tune because it's NOT English, and you'll claim that's cultural not anything to do with race,

You know what? I'm going to play both other traditions and the English tradition, and if this makes me less English in your eyes; well isn't that just TOO bad? I won't lose any sleep.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:52 AM

WAV, it's up to you what material you choose to add to your repertoire. However, most musicians are happy to acquire a good tune from any source, and always have been - there is no traditional justification for denying oneself a good tune because of its origin.

The tune you describe is known to far more English people than many "English" folk tunes.

The tune used for the National Anthem is probably German in origin.

The traditional repertoires of the British Isles are intermingled. I play a tune which Irish musicians recognise instantly as "The Cliff". I learned it from the playing of Bob McCann from Devon, who got it from his uncle. English or Irish? Another of Bob's family tunes, "Hot Punch" is also commonly found in Shetland. "Flowers of Edinburgh", "Bluebells of Scotland" and "Banks of the Dee" are traditional Morris tunes. English or Scottish? The answer is of course, both. The differences between English, Irish and Scottish traditional music lie more in the playing styles than the repertoire.

I can claim to have been indirectly responsible for introducing "Michael Turner's Waltz" to France. This tune is from the manuscript book of a Sussex fiddle player. I once played it in a session, and one of the musicians there learned it from me. He later moved to France, and introduced it into sessions there, where it is known as "Dave's Waltz". Recent research has identified the tune as being by Mozart, although it was probably an Austrian folk tune arranged by him.

Tunes migrate, and always have. To pretend otherwise, in the hope of preserving some kind of cultural purity, is futile. To deny yourself the pleasure of a good tune because of its origin is as fatuous as boycotting English country dancing because you don't like the word "ceilidh".


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Graveyard
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:52 AM

Oh Dear, how boring and tedious this all is, think I will go out for a pint.
This sounds like the rantings of someone who lives on their own with nothing better to do than pour over their own philosophies.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:20 PM

Just to pretend we don't know where this thread is going for a moment, wouldn't a Northumbrian piper have more in common with a Scottish one five miles away, than he/she would with an English mill town brass band? Likewise a Oswestry fiddler with one in Llangollen rather than a Midland car works band? Or does Albion's cordon sanitaire act as an effective prophylactic to migrating noise?

There are regional English musical cultures, the West Midlands gave us heavy metal, Sheffield may not have invented electro but gave it a voice and Liverpool's port status gave it access to blues records to mess with a week or two before anyone else. Then there's the unconsidered trifles valorised in Wigan's Casino, Stoke, Manchester, Blackpool and Cleethorpes. But as for a single domestic musical culture, I ain't buying.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:26 PM

Where there are long-running disputes over the origins of trad. tunes/songs, I suggest we toss a coin, rather than make our way, Howard, to the likes of Hastings or Calloden.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:35 PM

Oi! The West Midland maybe responsible (and a heavy responsibility it is :-D) for Ozzy Osbourne, Black Sabbath, half of Led Zeppelin etc, etc, but we also find the following from the same area.
West Midland Carols
We adopted Dave Swarbrick
The Ian Campbell Folk Group
Dave Pegg
Ric Sanders
well you get the idea.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:37 PM

WAV says, Where there are long-running disputes over the origins of trad. tunes/songs, I suggest we toss a coin, rather than make our way, Howard, to the likes of Hastings or Calloden.
That maybe you very lazy way of doing things, and it shows, but it's not mine nor is it the way of many Mudcatters.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:54 PM

The point is, WAV, that once a tune's been set loose it can end up anywhere. There's no reason why it can't become part of more than one culture. It's not the point of origin that's important, it's what becomes of it afterwards. If it's adopted into a culture it becomes part of it.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:55 PM

Correct DS, but scratch a demonically inspired, folically super-abundant, pharmaceutically supported, ex-Rover windscreen wrangler but latterly Strat flailing soprano son of Halesowen and you'll probably find a second generation Irish or Welsh spoon clacker.
You could make a good case for regionalism having more validity than national sound in the English canon.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:44 PM

WAV, while yesterday I agreed with you in principle about this, I suddenly realized something, which was actually pretty obvious. Your point of when an English musician plays a Swedish tune for example, they are taking away from one of their own English tunes, as you yourself mentioned regarding My Bonnie, which you now say you have abandoned. Well, I've been to your myspace page, and I see one of your top friends is Kathryn Tickell (actually, she's one of mine too, I've met her, and I hold her talent in very high regard) and have just about everything she's done. So I'm guessing you think highly of her as well. Now, I can open up anyone of the notes to her albums and find her doing Northumbrian tunes of course, but a quick perusal will find Irish, Greek, Scottish, French, Italian, tunes in their as well. First part of my question is this-she is the player of one of the most recognized native instruments of the English folk tradition-if you did not read the liner notes beforehand, would you recognize those tunes as not being of English origin? In other words, do you fault her for playing Swedish tunes on an English instrument, even though without the benefit of notes, would be unrecognizable to most ears? Second question is, related to this specifically, Kathryn is or was (and Sue or DS, I'm sure you know if she still is or not)a lecturer on the Folk & Traditional Music Degree Corse at Newcastle University. So this is someone whom I think you respect WAV. WOuld you tell Kathryn Tickell personally, number one-you should ONLY be playing English material (and I guess Kathryn's many excelent self-penned tunes would count as not of the tradition, therefore, not playable), and number two, that your lecturing in this degree course is detrimental to English traditional music, because it includes some Irish music? Howard's point above was completely true-as a player, why limit yourself. I could give you a hard time for listing the cords of a Scottish song on an English music thread. I could, but I won't, because I really don't care. I like to know where a song or tune comes from, but that's it. Meanwhile, I'm off to play Kathryn's album Strange But True-but I guess it's not going to be pure enough for your liking.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:07 PM

No two adults will ever agree on everything, or it would be incredibly rare, IE. Overall, I like KT's work. Her self-penned tunes are English. I've only spoken briefly to KT, and it was only about one of her gigs/tickets left...but I tend to be frank in person in the right situation, at least. (Also, I don't agree with every single lyric in my E. trad. repertoire.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:14 PM

Kathryn is or was a lecturer on the Folk & Traditional Music Degree Corse at Newcastle University

irishenglish, and the answer is

Ms Kathryn Tickell : Lecturer

Her self-penned tunes are English. So this makes her alright then. What about the traditional material, not all of that is English is it?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:19 PM

And of course, Ms Tickell has worked with non-folk musicians on many occasions ;-)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:38 PM

I've answered that, just above "no two adults..." Can you name me someone, DS, with whom you agree on everything?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:42 PM

You've answered nothing WAV, just weaseled your way around answering, yet again. Your No two adults is typical. So don't push the responsibility off onto me or anyone else.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Graveyard
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:34 PM

Why do you keep on feeding this guy. As we all know, anyone can be a 'friend' on myspace, you don't even have to know them. So to say KT is a friend is somewhat suspect, depending upon your definition of 'friend'


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:52 PM

OH dear god..... :0


A slight divergence re my own interest in this.... I do so wish that one of the south-western universities could run something like the Newcastle course, for those of us down here who can't move away....

Sue


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:37 AM

Graveyard - yes, a myspace Friend is, of course, really a web-link, and if we, overall, like someone's work, we put them on our Top Friends/top links.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:33 AM

In the spirit of Egalitarianism, I've now randomised my myspace friends; this way you see a new bunch each time to log in, so it's nice to be reminded of people you might have forgot about...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:36 AM

Christ - is it really June already?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:21 AM

I've noticed this randomised Top Friends tool, Sedayne...but who's this heavily made-up type on your header photo?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:50 AM

Drunken Sailor (in your repertoire of Trad English songs).
"A favorite of the old British Indiamen, has been adapted from a traditional Irish dance & march tune." See Deoflinger: Shantymen & Shantyboys, p48

Hugill, "Shanties From The Seven Seas" Drunken Sailor (p108-109)
"The air is from a Traditional Irish dance, as well as a march tune"


"Tommy's Gone To Hilo" also in your repertoire
From Roll & Go: Songs of the American Sailormen by Joanna C Colcord
"The melody in interesting because it seems to show some trace of Oriental influence, the first chorus being reminiscent of Chinese music." (p26)

Hugill, "Shanties From The Seven Seas" Tommy's Gone To Hilo (p192-193)
"The tune has an Oriental touch to it"


I guess you'll be dropping these from your rep & from your site?

Granted, I won't argue with your other selections but I thought that I'd throw those 2 in your lap just to say that I believe that your beliefs are faulty

To say that these particular shanties belong to one culture or another or is pure English is a magnification of your believed theory, which I'm not sure of what that really is.

The maritime musical culture of the "golden age sail" was such a mix that to pin point much of the music to one nation, nationally, ethic group or race is a risk that shouldn't be taken on so easily. As in many of the tunes discussed above, none are landlocked by borders of any type & once crossed become part of a larger culture. That's not to say that many of the songs can't be nailed down to one point of origin but on the other hand you can also say that even if one can be nailed down to a certain point of origin you can't lock it in the culture of it's origins once it's mingled & travel out side of it's small confined borders, it then becomes part of a multi-culture & if fact may even disappear altogether from it's place of birth so that to try & reclaim it would be an exercise in futility, which I believe is the path you are on. If I were to play & sing "Sailor's Hornpipe" or "Soldier's Joy" for example, I believe I could play & sing them as an English tune, an Irish tune, an American tune, even as an Old Timey or as a Maritime tune or song both belonging in its on subculture, but you can play them as you wish but don't tell the others that they've no right to play it if they're true purists.

As far as KT's music, why if she writes it does it become property of the English culture?
Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? She writes in a style & idiom that reflects an English style & background, she English by birth & bred as such, she's studied & lectured on the subject? I think before you claim that her music is English you'd do well to let those that "live" & "keep alive" the English culture, if there is such a pure thing,
decide that first.

Anyway, I'm finding myself an education in this thread.

Barry


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

Sorry, "Deoflinger: Shantymen & Shantyboys, p48" that should be Doerflinger, my apologies to William Main.

Barry


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM

who's this heavily made-up type on your header photo?

Who? Why that's me being publicly molested by Shameless Shabacko, aka Jake Rodrigues, of The Pierrotters, who we chanced upon last weekend whilst mooching about The North Pier at Blackpool - a wonderful coincidence as we've been wanting to see them since the Five Guys Named Acko documentary on BBC2 some years ago. Traditional sea-side entertainment at its very finest. I wonder, is there a module on the Folk Degree course about the Pierrot tradition? There should be!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM

To Barry - I've googled those two you mention, above, from my repertoire , and one site does mention an Irish tune, as you say, but another says English shanty..? Also, the first line I've been singing to "Tommy's Gone to Hilo" is "My Tommy's gone from Liverpool"..? I don't have a copy of either the Oxford or the Penguin book of English folk songs, nor can my library find one, for me to check, so perhaps someone else can, please.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM

You won't find it in the Penguin, don't know about the Oxford. Hugill gives "Tommy's gone to Hilo town" as a first line and another variant as "Tommy's gone on a whaling ship". But there's no "right" version, every shantyman would have had his own version, and they were semi-improvised.

As we know, anyone can put stuff on the internet without knowing anything about the subject. I'd sooner rely on Doerflinger and Hugill than on something found by googling.

And Barry Finn is right, shanties came from a multi-national culture, just because they're in the English language doesn't make them "English" in the sense WAV wishes for.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM

I wasn't wishing, Howard, but thanks.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

I can't make sense of the sense WAV wishes for. It seems to be that even if a song has been accepted into the English repertoire and has been part of that repertoire for centuries, it would not be English enough?

---
btw. from Fiddler's companion.

FLOWERS OF EDINBURGH [1] (Blata Duin-Eudain). AKA - "Flooers o' Edinburgh." AKA and see "Cois Lasadh/Leasa" (Beside a Rath), "Flowers of Donnybrook," "My Love's Bonny When She Smiles On Me," "My Love was Once a Bonny Lad," "Rossaviel," "To the Battle Men of Erin," "Old Virginia." Scottish (originally), Shetland, Canadian, American; Scots Measure, Country Dance Tune or Reel: English, Reel, Country or Morris Dance Tune (4/4, cut or 2/2 time); Irish, Reel or Hornpipe. Originally from Scotland, Lowlands region. USA; New England, southwestern Pa., Missouri, New York, Arizona. Canada; Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton. G Major (most versions): Morris version in D Major


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:30 PM

I think it self-evident that there ought to be an English Folk music degree. It would be pretty stupid if someone doing a German language degree studied French, wouldn't it?

Many songs and tunes are found in more than one tradition - some more evidently than others showing traces of differnet ancestry. But the same can be said of words. The Loom of Language (as I understand it is called) shows many words coming from different sources in different languages and shows many words in many languages coming from common sources. That does not make all languages the same, and a "modern languages" degree is different from an English (or Spanish) degree.

Some songs common in particular traditions are about the historical hatred of one race or culture or whatever you want to call it for another. Many Irish songs and tunes are rooted in hatred for the English. Many Southern Irish songs, for the Northern Irish, many English songs for the French, and so on.

If we do not consciously try to preserve the English traditions of song and tune and dance, they will be lost, while the traditions of the Irish and Scottish will live on, and maybe the Welsh as well.

By the way, I've been away for the weekend, so what other thread?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Sorry, WAV, I must have misunderstood you. I thought your position is that English people should perform material from English culture. Despite your Australian upbringing, you identify yourself as English (and I don't have a problem with that) to the extent of excluding songs and tunes from other cultures from your repertoire. As you have included these shanties in your repertoire I assumed that you believe them to belong to English culture.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

If you look back, Howard, just above, I've called for an enquiry on these two shanties, given that Barry questioned their origins. On myspace, by the way, someone else (doing the above Newcastle degree, as it happens) also questioned the origins of The Water is Wide, from the same repertoire.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

WAV, one simple question. DO you enjoy singing those two shanties, as well as The Water is Wide?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

from the same repertoire

Is Jerusalem a hymn, strictly speaking? I'm sure Blake didn't intend it as such. Worth a bit of research maybe??


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:46 PM

Blake would've been appalled, it's protest verse!!!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM

Shanty singing as we know it evolved around the 1830s (based simply on earliest references) as a mid-Atlantic phenomenon, and among multi-racial crews. English tends to be the dominant language used because at the time the dominant merchant fleets were American and British. There is strong evidence to suggest that shanty singing evolved from American river songs and slave songs. Many of the shanties have American themes.

I find it incredible that there are still dinosaurs around who believe that you should ONLY sing the songs of your own culture. I thought these ideas died out long ago. It has fascist/racist undertones to me.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:13 PM

That's true Sedayne, some/many in the C. of E. don't like "Jerusalem" being called a hymn; and, yes, Volgadon, Blake definitely did not write it as a hymn...it does mention "the Holy Lamb of God", mind.
And, yes again, Volgadon, I do enjoy singing The Water is Wide, and those 2 shanties.
To Steve: I tend to agree with most of your first paragraph, but not the second.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

"There is strong evidence to suggest that shanty singing evolved from American river songs and slave songs. Many of the shanties have American themes."

The book 'Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands', by Lydia Parrish, identifies various sea shanties being sung by the ex-slave communities she researched and collected from (circa 1912, but many of the older singers she collected from remembered the songs from 50 years before). A number of those songs are ones we'd recognise in England, such as Sandy Anna and Shilo Brown. There was so much cultural interchange over these songs that none of them can be absolutely identified as "belonging" to a particular culture.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:55 PM

WAV: so you enjoy singing these shanties, but will you stop once its established that they are not "English" as you define it?

We're going to have a lot of fun forcing you to learn an entire new repertoire. Let's start with Barbara Allen: my copy of Bronson gives versions from England, but also from Scotland, and various parts of the US and Canada. So how can we be sure that this is English?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:00 PM

"my copy of Bronson"

Oooh, get you, flashing your Bronson! Who's the daddy?!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

Yes - I thought someone would mention "Barbara Allen"...but here you mention an important word, Howard, "versions"...guess which one I've opted for?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

tell us, WAV - where has your "English version" of Barbara Allen come from, and how does it differ from all the other "versions"?

They're all the same song. So what makes it sufficiently English to be included in your repertoire?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:08 PM

Howard Jones

Let's start with Barbara Allen: my copy of Bronson gives versions from England, but also from Scotland, and various parts of the US and Canada.

You mean it doesn't mention the version from my ancestor (possibly) Ellen Creer from the Isle of Man?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM

Sorry Snail, it doesn't. I'd overlooked an Irish version though.

Ruth Archer: it's the paperback version of Bronson, Princeton University Press 1976. Quite expensive at the time as I recall but one of my better purchases.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

Bronson's never cheap - the last set I saw was £800, but I think it had also belonged to Maud Karpeles.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM

here, Ruth.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:33 PM

Neither shanties are in the Oxford Book of Sea Songs, the Viking Book of Ballads From the English Speaking World nor the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs.
A common theme with "Tommy's Gone To Hilo" (as with a few other shanties) would be for the shantyman to sing as many 3 syllable ports as he could muster up to draw the shanty along & show off his skills as a song leader. Rio Grand, Montreal, Newfoundland would fit the bill as well as Liverpool. The song is associated mostly with the nitrate trades.

Barry

Also see Sharp for TGtH


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM

So how do you know that the version you've learned, taken from the internet, is English? Apart from being in some big on-line database, what is its provenance?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:40 PM

out of interest, WAV, do you get a lot of your music from sources like that? It has to be the most soulless thing I've ever seen - about as removed from any folk process as it's possible to be.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

Ruth Archer: when I say "expensive" I think it was about £25 - quite a lot back in the 70s but not quite in the bracket you mentioned

WAV: the version of "Barbara Allen" that you perform may be English (although "an English" rather than "the English" version), but that doesn't mean it's English in origin, which seems to be the crucial issue for you. The website you refer to admits that "The English and Scottish both claim the original ballad"

WAV, I don't believe any of us arguing with you on here disagree with your idea that English culture should be promoted. Where we differ is the idea that traditional songs and tunes can be identified as purely English. Of course some do exist, but much of the material which made up the repertoire of traditional singers and musicians is shared widely throughout the British Isles and beyond, and some of the themes they contain can be found throughout the wider Indo-European traditions of ballads and stories. It is your notion of exclusivity that we reject.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

WAV, if you enjoy singing something, then you rob yourself by cutting it out over something so pointless and arbitrary as 'English' origins. People have always sung songs which they've liked and changed them, if, say, they thought that they wanted to sing it in English and not in Scots. Music is music, it knows no boundaries.

I had another thought about that Newcastle folk music degree. So, say not one of the graduates performs traditional songs, but they do influence POP MUSIC, which I thought you wanted to be more English.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

I also reject the idea that any parameters can be put around this culture for the future, to protect it from "pollution" or "dilution". Culture very naturally involves interchange, as well as evolution, and like it or not, this is a multicultural country and English culture will continue to absorb other influences. The idea that we can preserve some notion of "Englishness" for now and forever as a static, unchanging thing is pure fantasy. Not that it would be a particularly desirable outcome anyway - even for those of us who love English culture and are keen on its preservation.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

That above site, Ruth, does also mention Child #84 - this is another book source I don't have; and, yes, as such, I've built most of my repertoire from the web/mainly DigiTrad, as well as visits to Newcastle Library, before it's temporary closure/reconstruction...it, is, however, my birhtday in just a couple of months :-)
Howard, I just, e.g., mentioned my awareness of "versions", so it's a tad unfair to say "your notion of exclusivity."


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM

Child was American, WAV. His big work was called "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads", but it included the American variants as well. And it only contained lyrics. It was the above-mentioned Bronson who pulled together all the different collected tune versions for the Child ballads.

So the fact that your website cites Child does not meant that the song is English. And you don't have a provenance for the tune you've learned, so you have no idea which collected version it's based on.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

I just had a little look: Child makes about half a dozen references in the introduction to Barbara Allan to the song being Scottish.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:06 PM

"yes, as such, I've built most of my repertoire from the web/mainly DigiTrad, as well as visits to Newcastle Library"

These are not scholarly nor reliable sources to rely on, the same goes for alot of what's on the internet unless there's backup. You'd do well to find more resources for the songs to choose, if you're going to be so picky about what you sing & play.

Have you come to terms about the 2 shanties I've noted?

Barry


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:30 PM

don't really see the purpose of a degree in traditional music or creative writing (i've done half of one of them) if you spent 3 years playing in sessions in a variety of good pubs in different regions every night -then you'd learn far more than in any classroom. in scotland (plockton?) there is a specialist traditional music secondary school that is turning out hundreds of new musicians from the west of scotland. they are everywhere at the celtic connections festival -glasgow, scotland- there is at least one festival on each island and always plenty of young folk getting into the music, and little sense of anyone slagging off the tradition. finish school at 18 then you're on your own with your instrument and plenty of encouragment to take it further. english tend to laugh at their own musical heritage and the tired, stereotyped image of the sandals/jumper/finger in the ear is still the most likely representation you get. no need for any division between regions/people. recommend a listen to bindhi bagee by the top folk musician in recent years -the late great joe strummer- for something heartfelt, inclusive and joyful.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:37 AM

There is every sense in concentrating mainly on one's own tradition.

We accept and admire the African-American striving to determine and adopt "roots" to bolster identity and self worth. Why is it that so many reject the idea that the English could have roots or seek to revisit and preserve them? Why is the objection directed virtually only at the English?

Across America on St Patrick's day millions of American-Irish seek to recapture the spirit of their Irishness, and sing songs that are (truly or in their imagination) Irish. On Burns night Scotsmen throughout the globe celebrate their Scottishness and recite Scotish poetry.

Very frequently one can be reasonably confident of the origins or influences of a song or tune from aspects of its style. Even on this thread commentators accept that collectors could be persuaded of the origins of a song from its musical cadence. Why rubbish those who think they can hear if a song is English?


What is your beef with the English singing (mainly) English songs? Some years ago I realised that I was not a black sharecropper so it made little sense for me to sing the blues. I have never wanted to encourage Irish rebels to kill the English in general or military ones in particular.

Perhaps if it was politically acceptable for there to be systematic study of English folk music we would be able to be more certain of some of the vexed questions of where some folk songs actually did come from.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:38 AM

Indeed, PS, if some of the naysayers aaccepted that ther was actually such a thing a sfolk music we'd be some way on the way! Oh, and 100


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:09 AM

Richard, I for one do not reject the idea of the English having roots, far from it. I spend much of my time playing English tunes and singing English songs. Unlike WAV, I do not do so to the exclusion of other material.

The point that I, and others, have been trying to make is that the English musical tradition is based on a wide range of material. Undoubtedly some of it originated in England, but if traditional singers and instrumentalists in the past had not freely borrowed good songs and tunes wherever they heard them, our tradition would be much the poorer.

What they then did was adapt these songs and tunes to their local styles, and it is that, rather than the provenance, which gives them an English flavour.

Our argument with WAV is not his insistence on English songs and tunes, but his narrow viewpoint. If he wants to restrict himself, that's fine, but he feels the rest of us should do the same, and that is what we are challenging.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:54 AM

"We accept and admire the African-American striving to determine and adopt "roots" to bolster identity and self worth."

That is the most hilarious and offensive comment I've read on here. The diaspora has created some of the finest, most widely loved, responsive music that exists, from minstel traditions, blues, soul whatever. Africans were shipped off round the world, what are they expected to do, explore West Africa's music and claim kin like some cheesy book worm?

"Why is it that so many reject the idea that the English could have roots or seek to revisit and preserve them? Why is the objection directed virtually only at the English?"

With the empire England became an atomised country plying its trades across the globe. The globe fed back in, inevitably. Nobody's rejecting anything. There's choice and people make it. English music as I suggested is very regional, it doesn't have a single well spring. What's wrong with recognising that instead of shoehorning it into some artificial national boundary?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM

get it right, Glueman - there never was an 'English' Empire. It was British, and the Scots in particular were major contributors to its 'success.'


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:43 AM

I dropped "My Bonnie" from my repertoire and offered it to those north of the border (I've never actually heard it on folk radio or clubs, thus far) once I became sure that it was not English but Scottish (even though I feel it's a beautiful tune). In my opinion, the origins of those two above shanties are debatable, still, and I'm yet to drop/replace them.
A couple of reasons: I love our world being multicultural, and think positive nationalism (with eco-travel and fair-trade, rather than yet more conquest and immigration) is the best way forward; and "FOLK MUSIC: Music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic or regional culture" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:46 AM

When I say I sing English Folk Songs, I mean folk songs in English, broadly speaking, picking up on variations from America, Australia & - where's that shanty about Essequibo River from? I sing them in my own voice however, a Northumbrian brogue, tinged with Scots & Irish & vernacular Tyneside, which, according to my wife, it's getting stronger since we moved to Lancashire back in September...

I know WAV personally, we have good friends in common & he makes a canny contribution to any amount of singarounds where it's his Australian accent that kicks it off, even when he's performing his own chants. I might hope that despite his admitted attempts to lose his accent as part to his repatriation, he comes to recognise it as one of the real strengths, a unique selling point indeed, of his own evident uniqueness. There's so many Traditional English Folk Songs in the Australian tradition, and so many great Australian folk songs anyway. Even songs like Peter Bellamy's setting of Henry Lawson's Glass on the Bar would take on another light if sang with a genuine Aussie brogue. You can't fake these things after all.

It's one thing being proud of a culture, but first, me thinks, we must be proud of ourselves, and of each other. God knows there's room enough.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

"get it right, Glueman - there never was an 'English' Empire"

Quite right, I was using the term to express why England might have failed to maintain a single tradition (that I don't believe exists anyway). It wasn't a slight on the Scots as my wife's family would be at pains to indicate. I thought Richard Bridge's comments were patronising and dismissive even for someone specialising in snippy putdowns.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM

It's one thing being proud of a culture, but first, me thinks, we must be proud of ourselves, and of each other.

This is the key, for me. I strive to feel proud of what I actually am - not what anyone else thinks I ought to be. I'm perfectly aware of my Englishness and how my culture roots me.

Shane Meadows excellent film 'This Is England' is on TV tonight, WAV. I urge you to watch it.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:03 AM

Looking again I never used the term English Empire, I'm not given to nationalist flag waving whether it comes in Doc Martins or rainbow jumpers supping from tankards. As you say, the Clyde had its share in British 'success' in that area as much as the Bristol channel or the Mersey.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:12 AM

WAV, if you say another word about immigration we will have the repatriation argument again, and that's a promise.

And Sedayne's right - you're dissociating yourself from a large part of your own culture. You are Australian as well as English - just as I'm Welsh as well as English, my wife's Ukrainian as well as English and Barbara Allen is Scottish as well as English. It's not a problem.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM

WAV, I doubt you'll hear "My Bonnie" at a folk club, just as you're unlikely to hear "Danny Boy" or even "Wild Rover" - they're too well-known and overdone to be attractive to most folk audiences, who consider themselves too sophisticated for such material.

Shanties are literally international - they came from a working community made up of all races and nationalities. The ones we are familiar with are those sung in English, but there are many others in other languages. The musical and textual influences are likewise extremely wideranging, as you would expect from a community which was not only multinational in composition but extremely widely travelled.

Apart from being in the English language, they have no particular connection with England any more than they have with anywhere else. They are not part of an "English" cultural tradition. However they are part of a maritime tradition which England (and the other countries of the British Isles) had strong links with, and most singers have no difficulty including them in their repertoire.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM

You haven't answered my challenge to Barbara Allen, WAV.

To be clear, I don't think you should drop it from your repertoire, and I don't think you should be particularly worried about whether you sing a version of the lyrics or tune collected from either a Scottish or English source. Sing the song because you like it, for God's sake. Sing the version which sounds the best to you.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:56 AM

I sing the abovementioned version, Ruth - only I drop the last stanza; also (another bit of controversy) I use some multivoicing - including Barbara's lines in a kind of falsetto, and the dying Willie's lines with plently of extra air in my voice.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:08 AM

Glueman, you object to African Americans finding (or seeking to find) their roots? What sort af a nutter are you. If it's good for them (and I've never heard anyone else ever suggest it wasn't) then the equivalent is good for the rest of us.

And indeed it would be good if more people sang mostly their own tradition.

Or studied it.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:14 AM

WAV, you haven't answered the points I've raised about the song. Child's introduction to it (implying it's probably Scottish), the fact that you don't know where the tune you sing was collected, the fact that you don't know where the words you sing were collected.

You could be singing a Scottish tune to American lyrics for a song which is probably Scottish in origin, though no one knows for sure. How does this correspond to your narrow definition of English music?

See what we've been saying? You can't put cultural and geographical parameters around this music. Furthermore, if your "scholarship" consists of googling whatever version of a song you can find, even YOU - who preach to people about what music they should be singing, and how - can't vouch for the provenance of the material that you've absorbed into your repertoire!

I think if you're going to operate at this level of dogma, WAV, you need to be a bit more academically rigourous abut your sources.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:27 AM

I admitted I haven't got a copy of Child's book to access, Ruth, but, it says on that above site (which has referred to Childs) that "the version here is the English one"; and that Samuel Pepys, in his 17th century diary, was aware of its singing in England; also, it could be argued that the more-interactive web may, in some cases, be more accurate than a published book...?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:34 AM

Why are we indulging this racist twaddle?

I have no problem with a degree in English traditional music but we know from other threads that WAV is not being honest about his motivation for raising and supporting this don't we?

I am pretty secure in my "English" identity (hell, I was brought up a morris dancer and check my surname) but I don't feel any need to promote "Englishness" via the music I sing and play.....the test for music surely is about it being any good not where it comes from......it is a universal language where traditions have always been borrowed and swapped......and long may this continue.

Music should be about breaking down barriers between people not creating artificial ones.

Paul Arrowsmith


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:37 AM

African Americans have developed an independent culture that sees little need to go back to historical roots, if that means West African tribal music. Jazz has successfully harnessed the 'serious' role wthin the diaspora and other musics have taken the popular forms. There's no equivalence in the English position, with the possible exception of Australian music and that's forcing a point.

I'm prepared to believe there's a single English style, instumentation or vocal if someone shows it to me, until then I'll believe there are lots of regional forms, plus some that have hybrid vigour (Scots/English, Welsh/English, etc). We can chase an illusory definite English form that has currency in Hamphire, Lancashire and Norfolk till the cows come home but, to harness a quote from a radio show last week 'I'd rather Liverpool win a throw in than England win the world cup'. We are people of the region, nothing wrong with that.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Saro
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM

Well, it may be "the English one" meaning the one that was collected in England and therefore being sung in England at a specific time. But to claim an exclusive and sole identity for a song is not easy or nor is it always wise. I sing "the Hampshire Version" of a Night Visiting song - it was collected in Hampshire by Gardiner, so it is reasonable to call it a Hampshire version. However, it also mentions travelling over the mountains, which suggests that it originates elsewhere, unless the Hampshire terrain has altered a lot since 1906! Even what collectors say about songs is not always the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, there are embroideries, politica bias, and plain honest mistakes in there as well to contend with and we many have to accept that some stuff is "probably" or "possibly" of a certain origin, but only after some pretty solid research!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

"Samuel Pepys, in his 17th century diary, was aware of its singing in England;"

and where did that information come from? Presumably the author of your website got it from the introduction to Barbara Allen in Child (vol II), in which he says: 'Mr GF Graham, [in] Songs of Scotland...has pointed out an allusion to the "little Scotch song of Barbary Allen" in Pepys' Diary, 2 Jan 1665-6'

So Pepys actually calls it a Scottish song.


"the more-interactive web may, in some cases, be more accurate than a published book...?"

Book or website, what matters is sources and provenance. There are far too many websites out there which don't cite sources, are plagiaristic, or are wholly factually inaccurate.

As I used to say to my first-year university students: Just because you saw it on a website, that doesn't make it true. As with books, it's about the quality and the integrity of the source.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

"I admitted I haven't got a copy of Child's book to access, Ruth, but, it says on that above site (which has referred to Childs) that "the version here is the English one"; and that Samuel Pepys, in his 17th century diary, was aware of its singing in England; also, it could be argued that the more-interactive web may, in some cases, be more accurate than a published book...? "

WAV, not all books are right, but it is easier to check up on them, refferences, etc, in book form. As a general rule, if you have a book published, it has been checked several times and deemed worthy of the expense of being published. There is good stuff on the web, but it is very UNRELIABLE.

That site uses the definitive article. Preposterous. There are more English versions than one. Anyway, it has no provenance, no indication of what manuscript, or recording it comes from. It might even have been rewritten by the people who run the website for all we know.

Sadly I only have vol. 1 of Child, so I can't chyeck him.

As for Pepys, he says that he heard Barbara Allen, but here is what we can reasonably deduce.

1) a song by that name existed in the 1660s.
2) that it was reasonably well-known, for Pepys to recognise and for someone to be singing it in the streets.

This does NOT mean that Barbara Allen is necessarily English in origin, that the version which Pepys heard was an English one and that the singer was English. The above could be true, but that is the realm of speculation. It also doesn't mean that the lyrics and tune presented on the website are the ones which Pepys overheard.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

For on-line Child Ballads see: http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/child-ballads/


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM

"The version used here is the English one. The tune is traditional."

What does this mean? Which English "one"? There will be many English versions of the lyrics. Collected where, from whom, by whom? From which broadside? The tune is cited as "traditional" - from what tradition? Is it from bronson or another source? again, what is its provenance?

I'm really surprised that someone who is so unshakeably dogmatic, not just in what they will sing but what and how they expect others to sing, has built their beliefs on such dodgy foundations. If you're going to defend such a contentious position, WAV, you really must have more robust sources.

Also that someone who constantly brings up his academic qualifications can have developed his philosophy based on so little academic rigour.

And, further, that someone whose sources are dodgy, generalist internet sites which don't provide any real provenance for their music, is happy to argue with academics and ethnomusicologists in defending his position. And in insisting that everyone else ought to adopt his philosophy as well.

What collossal arrogance, or collossal stupidity. The mind boggles.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM

Thanks, Sedayne, I'm a bit surprised to find all that there for free, but I've put it on my favourites list. On the balance of probability, for what it's worth, I'm still sticking with the 17 E. trads in my repertoire, including Barbara Allen - like most/all, Ruth, I do put some limits on the amount of "academic rigour"; my selection has been questioned, and I have re-checked with the sources presently available to me. And, in agreement with Richard, above, I maintain that the efforts, as a repat., I've made to practise my own English culture are not a bad thing.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

"- like most/all, Ruth, I do put some limits on the amount of "academic rigour"

WAV, you're not demonstrating ANY. You're taking the word of someone whose work you don't know, whose sources you don't know, that this is the "English version" of a song. If all of this stuff is so important to you, surely you care about whether what you're singing really IS an English song or not? Otherwise, your whole thesis is more of a nonsense than ever.

Most of the people with whom you've had discussions about your singuular outlook here on Mudcat would consider the sort of research I've suggested a pretty minimal level of "academic rigour", particularly if you're going to start making sweeping claims about your philosophy and your approach. Surely you, in wanting to get to know your "good English culture", care about what versions of songs you're learning and where they've come from, and not simply learn whatever dross is culled from the first source on your Google search. Otherwise, your whole repertoire risks being a load of faked-up nonsense.

"the efforts, as a repat., I've made to practise my own English culture are not a bad thing. "

Well, judging from what i've seen today, they're really not all that impressive. It certainly puts a lot of your woeful ignorance about folk music into perspective, but it's still staggering to think of you making pronouncements about music, based on these hollow and flimsy sources, to people who have spent lifetimes on legitimate research into this music and culture.

*wanders away, shaking head in disbelief*


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM

I did say, Ruth, since you didn't notice, that I've also been to Newcastle Library, listened to folk-radio, and gone to as many folk clubs and festivals as I can afford (I haven't tallied-up or told of the hours, but you seem to have ASSUMED they are low)...but there's also manufacturing job-searching, poetry, actually going through my selection to keep the tunes and lyrics in my head, recording, tennis, cooking, cleaning, debating...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:48 AM

Look, WAV - you're the one who has set out his stall here (repeatedly). You argue for people to sing a certain repertoire, in a way which you deem appropriate. You have argued vociferously for people to sing English song. Yet it seems you don't even really know the provenance of many of the songs you sing (even if you do hear them in singarounds or festivals).

If you wanted to sing these songs purely for your own pleasure, you know what? It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference which songs came from where, when or how. And I think most of the people with whom you've tangled here would positively encourage you in this. The music is fabulous - enjoy it! Don't get anal about whether ia song comes from Northumberland or just over the Scottish border. If you love it, sing it!

The problem is, WAV, that you set out your approach to singing as part of a wider political agenda. You have preached - and tried to dictate - on thread after thread, to people who have known and loved folk music much longer than you have. This is the other issue, you see: even if you wanted to set up these narrow - and entirely false - parameters for yourself, most people would have shrugged and said, "Whatever." It was when you started telling others what they ought to sing, using your own repertoire over and over as an example, that people got pissed off.

Now it turns out that you can't even defend your choice of repertoire, because you couldn't even be bothered to do the most fundamental research on where the songs originated. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Going back to the origins of this thread; when I think of the irony of you sitting in judgement on the Newcastle degree students, and their choice of repertoire...those students are compelled to study the canon of English music and song far more deeply than you have, or likely ever will. They have tutors like Chris Coe and Sandra Kerr, for god's sake, teaching them about the value of the tradition and the sources for the songs they sing. The degree has produced some very fine young singers of English traditional song. And you sit there with your fistful of cliched, done-to-death songs culled from the internet, and judge those young people for what they choose to sing?

Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:49 AM

The point is, WAV, that there are plenty of people here who have done more - much more - and just about all of them think your position is wrong, daft or both. If you were really interested in learning about English cultures and traditions - if you were really interested in learning - you'd take that on board.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:58 AM

I said, Ruth, I have made efforts - within limits - to check origins, etc., in building my repertoire, and was trained to do suchlike during my major in anthropology/BA in humanities. As for your penultimate paragraph, please read this above post again - Date: 30 May 08 - 03:45 PM.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

"I have made efforts - within limits - to check origins, etc., in building my repertoire, and was trained to do suchlike during my major in anthropology/BA in humanities."

very poor efforts, from the look of things. A quick internet surf and a cut-and-paste is not really research. As I say, I used to lecture on a BA degree course. I certainly would have found your approaches to research, argument and evidence wholly unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM

Anthropology is about the study & understanding of human cultures & societies, presumably with as little preconceived baggage getting in the way as possible. Methinks, WAV, if you applied more of an Anthropological methodology to your understanding of English Culture & Society, it might yield a greater harvest than that you're currently reaping. Heave-ho the baggage - and dig deeper than The Digital Tradition for your repertoire; and in any case add at least one zero to your limit of traditional songs - 17 - 170 - 1700. God knows there's enough of them out there...

Otherwise, has Mudcat ever been so much fun since WAV stepped out of his eponymous thread? I think not...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM

I began anthropology getting low-credits for my essays, Ruth, I ended getting high-distinctions (proveable, as I've kept them); and, I'm telling you, I have put quite a lot into folk music, as well.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:34 AM

Even if it is "provable", sorry - in case the likes of The Snail slither by. I'll try and record those 2 times 17, Sedayne, before doing as you say...I understand your way is somewhat different - 1 on the go, several in waiting. But, frankly (although, including my Chants from Walkabouts, and a few carols, I have more than 50), I doubt I'll ever get to 170 - let alone 1700; but I hope to continue to listen to many more - both live and on radio, etc.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

"I have made efforts - within limits - to check origins"

It's those limits, WAV, that are the problem. No one on here is impressed with the limited research you have done, which appears to be mostly on the internet. Anyone with a serious interest in the music would be checking reputable printed sources and recordings. Admittedly they are not always easy to obtain, but your local library should be able to help, or you could try the Vaughn Williams library. Or use the internet with more care and don't take a single website at its face value. You say you were trained to do this at university, but there is precious little evidence of it in what you write on here.

WAV, no one doubts your enthusiasm, but by your own admission you have only been involved in folk music for a fairly short time. Others on here have been deeply involved for 30, 40, 50 years or more. We are trying to be patient with your naivety, but your unwavering belief that you are right is trying!

I had to read your post of 30 May 3:45pm several times to understand it, but so what? Most of the students on the Newcastle degree do include traditional material in their repertoires, but if it also produces a songwriter able to produce fine new English songs based on a grounding in the tradition, then I think it has made a contribution.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM

"As for your penultimate paragraph, please read this above post again - Date: 30 May 08 - 03:45 PM."

This is where you accuse the tutors on the folk degree of not doing their job? Well, if someone joins the degree singing original songs with a guitar and leaves, four years later, still doing that, why does it mean that the tutors are not doing their job? The students are not being indoctrinated into the English tradition. They are artists, who will absorb the influences they wish to and discard the rest. Like any artist. Or any student, come to that.

As I say, i've known several students from the degree in recent years, and they receive excellent tuition in English folk song. They certainly are exposed to more than 17 English songs. I'm listening to a recently-released CD by one of those students right now - Hannah James of Kerfuffle. It includes the likes of Down By the Greenwood Side, Two Sisters, The Northill May Song from Bedfordshire, The Snows They Melt The Soonest, the Castleton Carol...you know, all those English songs the degree students have no knowledge of.

Very good it is, too.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM

Howard, you say read/study more but you clearly have not bothered reading the posts of the one you are criticising - I've used books: you will not find, e.g., "The Northumbrian Bagpipes" or "The Tyne Exiles Lament" in google/on the web. As with Ruth, you are ASSUMING the time I've put in is low.
The folk degree in question is based within the borders of England, but it's likely, sadly, that less than half of what was presented at this year's final recitals was E. trad - there were Scots performing their culture, and English performing largely the culture of other nations. (When members of The Devil's Interval were doing their final recitals, the other year, the percentages were much better as far as E. trads go.) This year, I repeat, the quality/musicianship was good, but NOT the selection.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM

WAV, somewhere I believe you said you'd been involved with folk music for I think 3-4 years. I don't have time to go back through all the recent threads to check this, and if I've got this wrong then I apologise. I've been involved with it for approaching 40 years, so from my perspective the time you've put in is low, but I realise you're younger than me.

I said your research appeared to be "mostly" on the internet. I'm sure you've used books as well, but since you usually justify your claims by references to the internet rather than books it seems fair to assume that this your primary source. Your knowledge of some of the major reputable sources seems fairly limited, based on what you've said on here. Again, if this is incorrect I'm happy to be proved wrong.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM

WAV, how many of those students have ancestry from Scotland, Ireland, etc.? I wouldguess that quite a few, anyway, most of those songs have been found in the 'tradition', besides, it really boils down to what the student wants to make their own.
Wouldn't someone from Newcastle be just as likely to sing a Scottish song, from just a few miles up the road, as anything sung in East Anglia?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:50 AM

There are two issues being confused here by flakmongers who seem to hate the idea of there being an English (or more than one English) tradition.

Does it make sense for people to perform mostly within the tradition from which they come? Of course it does. Watch the pitiful attempts of most white musicians to perform blues reggae or African music. Can't you holy Joes HEAR the difference?

Do you not understand how scholars of music can say that certain nationalities of folk music use certain modes or scales? If you can understand that then you most be able to understand that a music can come from particular tradition.

You attack the above by criticising WAV's research.. That's a non-sequitur.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:52 AM

I know little about the degree in Limerick (except that it's called a Degree in Irish Traditional Music and Dance), but I do know that when the students in Glasgow performed for Gaelic BBC TV they did indeed present Scottish culture - I want the degree in Newcastle, ENGLAND to be like that, and if that means enlarging the department in Glasgow, good.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

I want the degree in Newcastle, ENGLAND to be like that, and if that means enlarging the department in Glasgow, good.

But, why do you want that? You're not on the course, you're not connected with it in any way. It has no bearing on your life.

Live and let live.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

Well, it's NOT like that, WAV. I object to you denegrating their hard work because it isn't exactly what you think it ought to be. If it means that much to you, do what Alistair Anderson has done: work tirelessly and often thanklessly for 40 years in folk music, develop a peerless reputation and bags of credibility, and then convince a good university to take on the degree and syllabus which YOU think is more appropriate.

I won't hold my breath.

Richard Bridge, all of us on this thread have stated categortically that we believe in English culture. We love and support it. We just don't believe in it to the exclusion of all else, as WAV does.

His research is relevant because his "repertoire" is a load of cobblers. But he still wants to hold it up as some sort of gold standard that we should all aspire to.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM

"Howard, you say read/study more but you clearly have not bothered reading the posts of the one you are criticising - I've used books: you will not find, e.g., "The Northumbrian Bagpipes" or "The Tyne Exiles Lament" in google/on the web"
No? Guess what the top google result for 'tyne+exile's+lament+lyrics' is.
http://www.geocities.com/matalzi/priests3.html#The%20Tyne%20Exile's
Interestingly enough, the tune is based on the Banks of the Dee, a song written by a Scotsman. I understand that the tune itself appeared in an early 1700s dancebook from London, but do you think that the author of the Exile's Lament based it on that obscure source rather than on the singing of Scottish neighbours?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

I quickly found the same source for Tyne Exile's Lament. It appears to come from an 1888 "Beuk o' Newcassel Songs" compiled by Joseph Cawhill. It may be English, but it doesn't read like a folk song, the text is too flowery. And as Volgadon points out, it's set to a Scottish tune "Banks of the Dee" (although as I've pointed out elsewhere, it's found widely in the English tradition)

I don't know WAV's "Northumbrian Bagpipes" song but guess that it might be "The Northumberland Bagpipes" from the Roxburgh collection and printed in "Pills to Purge Melancholy".

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/popular-music-olden-times-2/popular-music-of-olden-times2%20-%200536.htm

Again, it doesn't read like a folk song.

Of course, both are English but possibly not traditional, unless there is evidence that they have subsequently been collected


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

Thanks, Volgadon - that site is quite a new one "created 06.02.'08", and a good one (with midi, lyrics, and notation), which I've just added to my favoutites. (It gives the tune in Bb, whereas the book I found it in gives it in Eb.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:48 PM

"APPRECIATE OTHER CULTURES BUT PRACTISE/PERFORM YOUR OWN"

I can play anything I like, sunshine.

If I want to play blues, jazz, reggae, English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Manx, Hawaiian, bluegrass, country, punk, gypsy jazz, pop, rock, or anything else I like, then I'll damn well play it.

If I have to do this without the approval of a couple of opinionated blokes on the Internet, well it's a tough old life, but that's a burden I'll just have to try and live with.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM

That's it Howard - I've been introducing it as "The Northumbrian Bagpipes," as that's the name most small-pipers here seem to give their instrument. Once I'd found them at the library, I didn't bother checking the web again but, yes, both these tunes/songs are now on it, thanks. Accordingly with what else you say, when I've performed TNB I've heard "that's a strange tune"; and when I've perforned TTEL, I've heard "that's a great tune."


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM

APPRECIATE OTHER CULTURES BUT PRACTISE/PERFORM YOUR OWN.

I'd missed that one before...

Sorry mate, I'm English but I'll continue to participate in Irish sessions.

As far as I'm concerned, where we go with our music is a personal choice. Our own feelings of Englishness or whatever are personal too. Personally (perhaps in part as I lived twice in Wales), I have no such feelings and I do not feel "rooted" anywhere.

Musically, I go where I find I find the music most appealing to me, I get the most enjoyment and I feel most comfortable, it's as simple as that.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM

There are two issues being confused here by flakmongers who seem to hate the idea of there being an English (or more than one English) tradition.

If you're going to fulminate against other commenters, could you identify the people you're fulminating against? Speaking for myself, the fact that there's more than one English tradition is a point I've made, repeatedly, arguing against WAV's fetishised version of "our good English culture".

Does it make sense for people to perform mostly within the tradition from which they come? Of course it does.

My father was born in Wrexham, my mother in Battersea; I grew up in South Wales and South London; and I've spent more than half my life in South Manchester. What's the tradition from which I come? Welsh? (Which - North or South?) London? Lancashire? If I consciously chose to position myself in any one of those traditions I'd have serious difficulties - not least because that I'd have to get all the material from other performers, from books, from records and from the Net, just as I would if I adopted any other tradition.

I am not Bob Copper or Shirley Collins; in musical terms, "the tradition from which I come" means precisely nothing. I sing traditional material because I like it, just like WAV. I get the material I sing from books and records and from the Net, just like WAV. Neither of us is doing anything to perpetuate "the tradition from which [we] come", because at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist. (At least, that's true for me - WAV may have run into some genuinely vernacular traditional culture Down Under, and perhaps could be doing the world a service by keeping it going.)

Talking about 'English' traditional music is either dishonest or nonsensical - as if you could conjure up a coherent national culture by simply excluding everything 'un-English' (and who would judge?).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

And there are, of course, folks in Scotland and Ireland, e.g., who have the same attitude as you, Jon - but, in modern England, the percentages are, sadly, much worse, and that is reflected by the 3 degrees mentioned above.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

I'm with Guest Jon, I go where I find I find the music most appealing to me plus I enjoy the music, where it comes from is immaterial, yes I'm English and proud of it, but it has no bearing on the music that I like. Now if you'll excuse me, I do believe I'll play Neil Young's Prairie Wind CD (yes, I know, it's not folk) :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

So you wouldn't use the word "worse" like me, DS - but do you agree on those percentages? Another e.g: compare the content of the BBC's Hogmanay from Scotland, with Hootenanny from England.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

WAV, it might be reasonable to suggest that compared to Irish or Scottish, English music is poorly supported amongst the general population. There may be a case for a degree in English folk music, I don't know...

I disagree with your lines of argument though. I do not go along with Scotland and Ireland have degree courses in their national music therefore a course in England MUST be in English folk music. You have already had my views regarding your comments on what people SHOULD be practicing/playing...

Surely the way forward should be to try to get the music out to more of the general population and to encourage hearing what is good in it? I suspect if that was achieved, some of what you appear to want would follow naturally.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

I think I just said, I enjoy the music, where it comes from is immaterial. That means don't care about your unproveable percentages (once more you have no figures to back up your rather dubious claims)

Why would I want to compare anything, it means nothing, which brings me full circle to, I enjoy the music, where it comes from is immaterial. End of conversation


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

"Surely the way forward should be to try to get the music out to more of the general population and to encourage hearing what is good in it?" Jon...Some of what goes on at the festivals of Durham and Northumberland are good in that way - e.g., performing local pieces out among shoppers, park-walkers, etc., as well as indoors. But, I stand by what I said, those who turned up for the free final-recitals at The Sage, did NOT get a good enough taste of English folk, and I hope for improvement.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

WAV once more says (variations on a theme)did NOT get a good enough taste of English folk, and I hope for improvement.

Well sorry, dearie, the world doesn't revolve around you, so keep hoping


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

But, I stand by what I said, those who turned up for the free final-recitals at The Sage, did NOT get a good enough taste of English folk, and I hope for improvement.

I trust you called all concerned into your office and gave them a good bollocking.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

Would that be 4/10, please show some improvement next time? :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

I repeat, the quality/musicianship was fine; the selection was not - in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM

Should we all go and stand in the corner(s) for not agreeing with you?
AND you said nothing about the quality/musicianship


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

The problem is that WAV has a very clear idea what he wants us to do, but is inconsistent in his own approach:

1) WAV wants all us English musicians to play and sing only "English" songs and tunes, and has a very narrow view of what is "English". Unfortunately, his research into the songs he performs himself is not sufficiently rigourous, and we have pointed out a number of examples in his repertoire which may be of non-English origin.

For example, it seems possible that "Barbara Allen" may be Scottish. If this is the case, it is fortunate that earlier generations of singers did not share WAV's approach, since we would not now have English versions of this, including the one that WAV sings

2) He is critical of a Newcastle degree student performing his own compositions, but is happy to perform composed songs from earlier times himself

3) He is critical of those who chose to play guitar rather than an "authentic" English instrument such as cittern, but he himself plays recorder. The recorder was once popular in England, although probably for playing composed art music, but it fell out of fashion by the 18th century. So far as I am aware, it does not feature to any great extent in the English folk tradition, particularly in more recent times; however, as a recorder player myself, I would be interested to be proved wrong, if anyone can give examples of traditional recorder players.

4) He is critical of English performers who do non-English material as it is a wasted opportunity to perform "good English traditional folk songs". However a substantial portion of his repertoire is hymns from "Hymns Ancient and Modern" most of which are relatively recent compositions - surely this is a wasted opportunity to perform good English traditional folk hymns?

Of course, I disagree with his basic premise, on which all this is founded, that "Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national" Here he is guilty of imposing his own preconceptions and prejudices. Folk music isn't "meant" to be anything - it exists, it still survives, and it is up to us to do what we can with it. For WAV, that means pursuing his own narrow, and in my opinion ultimately sterile path, which would be fine if he wasn't so convinced that the rest of us should do the same. Most of us approach it with more open minds and take it at its face value.

Many folk songs and tunes transcend national boundaries and are found throughout Britain, and beyond. They are adapted and made local, but in many cases you cannot say that this is English or Irish or Scottish.

A good song or tune is a good song or tune. If it means something to you, then perform it. If it's English, fine, if not it doesn't diminish your Englishness and nor does it damage English culture. There is plenty of English music being played.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM

Excellent post Howard, I would add that WAV also considers self penned tunes, or at least Kathryn Tickell's to be English tunes the minute they become recorded somehow. Could I just ask, in regards to WAV's notion of English instruments, where recorders are made these days?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

The recorder itself may not be an English instrument, the earliest recorder, as we know it, is 14th century one, found in a castle moat in Dordrecht, the Netherlands in 1940, It is largely intact, though not playable. A second more or less intact 14th century recorder was found in a latrine in northern Germany (in Göttingen): other 14th-century examples survive from Esslingen (Germany) and Tartu (Estonia). There is a fragment of a possible 14th-15th-century bone recorder in Rhodes (Greece); and there is an intact 15th-century example from Elblag (Poland). Having said that, no one really knows where the recorder originated, so.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

We don't know who invented the recorder; we do know that for centuries it has been also been known as the English flute; and we do know that it was mainly English and Germans who brought it back as a folk/students' instrument in the early 20th century. Hence, I included it as one of my INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND (some may recall another thread called England's National Instrument? that went on a while, before and after Sedayne found that Wiki. has it as the bell - I'm now a tad tempted by the bell lyre, by the way).
And (HR, point 2) nothing against an Englishman performing his own repertoire, of course, but, fair play, a 4 year trad. music degree, and not one E. trad. at the end of it!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Where's your recorder made WAV?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:09 PM

I doy yav a problem with his English. :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM

I repeat We don't know who invented the recorder, all else is a sad attemt at making it sound as if the recorder is indeed English.

a 4 year trad. music degree, and not one E. trad. at the end of it!
So?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

If your only criterion for performing a song or tune is whether you like it that reduces folk music (or other the form of music of your choice) to mere entertainment. It reduces "traditional" "folk" music to nothing more than a stylistic choice.

It could also lead you to some interesting technical challenges!

Incidentally, I also believe that traditional fruit and vegetable and floral varieties ought to be preserved, and it pretty well goes without saying that the narrowing of the animal gene pool carries serious risks.

In that context, whether or not there is a traditional music degree (compare "a modern languages degree") there ought to be an "English folk music" degree course for otherwise the English tradition is not as fully researched or understood - and indeed possibly not as widely performed, so that it is at risk of loss.

Whether or not you like Comhaltas it has played (it seems) a valuable part in getting Irish traditional music widely performed and accepted. A degree in English folk traditions would be one good way to seek to do the same for England.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:33 PM

"4) He is critical of English performers who do non-English material as it is a wasted opportunity to perform "good English traditional folk songs". However a substantial portion of his repertoire is hymns from "Hymns Ancient and Modern" most of which are relatively recent compositions - surely this is a wasted opportunity to perform good English traditional folk hymns?"

Indeed, The English Hymnal, edited by Vaughan Williams, was a reaction against Hymns Ancient and Modern. It was thought that a new hymnal was needed which was more egalitarian in its approach to singing, and VW deliberately utilised folk tunes throughout.

If someone wanted to play music from the traditional repertoire, they'd use The English Hymnal every time.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

"We don't know who invented the recorder; we do know that for centuries it has been also been known as the English flute"

I don't think we know any such thing. Here's what some bloke on that Internet says:

The true recorder only came into extensive use around 1500. With its versatility and wide, chromatic range, it quickly established itself as the "polite" whistle, for use by professionals and courtiers, whereas the old type of whistle was regarded as a country instrument fit only for shepherds. Henry VIII had a particular affection for recorders ... By Elizabeth I's reign, fashion had changed, and the flute was more popular. The new operas, which arose around 1600, used both. The recorder was particularly associated with pastoral subjects - nymphs, shepherds and so on. The flute was the more "mainstream"orchestral instrument. This continued until the mid to late seventeenth century, when the recorder once more came into vogue as a concert instrument in England - so much so that the "English Flute", or just "Flute" in England, was the recorder, and the cross-blown version was known as the "German Flute". During the first half of the eighteenth century, the German flute grew in popularity, and gradually displaced the English Flute. By 1800 the recorder had virtually disappeared from the professional scene.

So that's

1500ish: recorder appears
1600ish: recorder unfashionable
Mid- to late 1600s: recorder back in fashion; known as 'English Flute'
Mid- to late 1700s: recorder unfashionable again
1800ish: recorder disappears


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

If your only criterion for performing a song or tune is whether you like it that reduces folk music (or other the form of music of your choice) to mere entertainment.

That's not what I said. (Word to the wise: quoting people is quite easy - see above - and it makes it a lot easier for everyone else to see who and what you're responding to.) I sing the songs I do because I love them, because I think I can do justice to them and because I want other people to hear them - there's a bit more to it than 'whether you like it'.

What I did say - apologies for the repetition, but I don't want to rephrase it for the sake of it - was:

I am not Bob Copper or Shirley Collins; in musical terms, "the tradition from which I come" means precisely nothing. I sing traditional material because I like it, just like WAV. I get the material I sing from books and records and from the Net, just like WAV. Neither of us is doing anything to perpetuate "the tradition from which [we] come", because at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist.

"Because I like it" is counterposed to your notion of singing to perpetuate your tradition, which you seem to think has something in common with WAV's truculent defence of the 'English'. There are still a few people out there - even in England - for whom the words "your tradition" means something real and definite, but I'm not one of them and neither is WAV.

Incidentally, I also believe that traditional fruit and vegetable and floral varieties ought to be preserved, and it pretty well goes without saying that the narrowing of the animal gene pool carries serious risks.

I agree entirely, although I'm not sure how it's relevant.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

"If your only criterion for performing a song or tune is whether you like it that reduces folk music (or other the form of music of your choice) to mere entertainment." (Richard Bridge)

But folk music always was entertainment. The role of the traditional musician was to provide songs and tunes to entertain his community. Why do you dismiss it as "mere" entertainment? If its not entertaining then it becomes a sterile academic exercise. Entertainment doesn't have to mean frivolous.

Performers who earn their living from it may have to tailor their repertoire to the tastes of their audience. For the rest of us, why perform something if you don't like it? For me, a song or tune has to touch me in some way. Regardless of its provenance, if it doesn't do that then I won't learn it.

As for stylistic choice, it is style rather than content which for me defines national music. A tune such as "Flowers of Edinburgh" is found throughout the British Isles, but the proverbial Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman will all play it differently, with distinctive regional styles (which extends to the way variations creep in as well as playing style). A visiting American will play it differently again. It is the style which distinguishes one version from another of what is essentially the same tune.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

WAV, I knew you would quote the term "English flute" for recorder, but so what? The name is immaterial. Where is the evidence for it being used in traditional music?

It seems likely there were some examples, after all musicians would play whatever instruments they had available, and most instruments will have been used for folk music at some point. The question is, did the recorder play a significant role in English folk music? I'm not aware that it did, but if you (or anyone else) can provide evidence to show otherwise then I'll gladly alter my view.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:10 PM

Howard Jones said, But folk music always was entertainment. The role of the traditional musician was to provide songs and tunes to entertain his community. Why do you dismiss it as "mere" entertainment? If its not entertaining then it becomes a sterile academic exercise.

It's why it's called FOLK music and NOT Academae Music. From the folks to be performed by the folks

Index of The English Hymnal, 1906, 1933

Index of The New English Hymnal, 1986


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:30 PM

WAV,
You have somehow managed to animate a relatively large number of seemingly intelligent people to respond to your eccentricities. How very English this is.

Perhaps you would like to identify your repertoire of songs and your sources and let them proceed to rip this apart more fully. This I would enjoy more than the repetition which is now getting boring.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM

Reading this thread ,I thought I might have died and gone to hell.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:32 AM

The Naked City has a million stories, this was only one of them......


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

To Steve (suddenly I'm an English eccentric, and not a "nuturalised Australian" - Sedayne): my repertoire of English hymns and E. trads is here (I accept that it is not a perfectly/purely/exclusively English collection - but it's good that I've leaned that way. I also say at the same place that there are more than enough good English tunes and songs for anyone's lifetime - so why not practise/perform/ENTERTAIN WITH our own, whilst appreciating the music of other nations, and helping keep our world nice and multicultural.
"If someone wanted to play music from the traditional repertoire, they'd use The English Hymnal every time." Ruth...I'm not into just English traditional music, and, thus, I've selected from both TEH and HAAM. (There's also a list of English dances, e.g., on my above site.)
To Richard and Phil: for quite a while I argued on the BBC (which should dissolve into the EBC, WBC, SBC, and IBC, in my opinion) Gardening Forum for native gardening, for similar reasons as you mention (I've summarised this argument in a myspace blog called GREEN GODLY GARDENING.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:44 AM

To Richard and Phil:

Who, me? Thanks for noticing.

why not practise/perform/ENTERTAIN WITH our own

Because they're not "our own" in any meaningful sense, as I explained at some length in an earlier comment. To paraphrase myself slightly, there are still a few people out there - even in England - for whom the words "our music" mean something real and definite, but I'm not one of them and neither are you.

I'm not into just English traditional music

So you go into a forum full of people who care deeply about traditional music but mostly don't care particularly about whether it's got the English label on it - and you tell us that what we should care about it not whether it's traditional but whether it's English. And when we disagree, you tell us again.

No accounting for tastes, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

"I sing traditional material because I like it". There's your quote. 'Nuff said.

I didn't say that folk music should not be entertaining. If you don't know the difference between that and being mere entertainment you need to think a little more. Indeed that would be one reason why a degree with a performance element is more apt than one that is purely historical.

It does represent the continuation (and evolution and adaptation) of a tradition. That is not contradicted by the fact that many of us maybe exposed to a range of traditions.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

IBC? RTE might have something to say about that, as well as the rest of Ireland. I'm quite certain that these words by Dr. Reg Hall have been used on Mudcat before, but I feel they bear repeating for WAV's ears. This, coming from the introductory notes to The Voice Of The People, a collection you should be looking at WAV, in all seriousness. Not strictly English of course, but arguably heavily balanced in that direction. The quote:

Any attempt to describe, let alone define, traditional music and dance is inevitably loaded with paradoxes and contradictions. To start with it there is no popular or even academic consensus about what they include and exclude. Having long existed and cross bred with popular culture, the boundaries between the tradition and popular culture are blurred, and it can be argued there is value in keeping them blurred.

Now WAV, can you tell me out of curiousity, where your recorder is made?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:29 AM

so why not practise/perform/ENTERTAIN WITH our own

But who are are own? As well as not feeling specially "English", I've no musical links back to any traditional playing or singing and I see no reason to feel or think the people I go out to play Irish music with are any less "our own" than I might a group of English players.

If anything, for me, I'd say they feel more "my own" as that is the music for whatever reasons along the line and in our individual "musical journeys" I think most of us who go have found that bit more special.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:10 AM

"I sing traditional material because I like it". There's your quote. 'Nuff said.

No, Richard, not enough said. Here's my quote (apologies to everyone else for this second repetition):

I sing traditional material because I like it, just like WAV. I get the material I sing from books and records and from the Net, just like WAV. Neither of us is doing anything to perpetuate "the tradition from which [we] come", because at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist.

We could have a discussion about just how much I "like" traditional material - I can change it to "love" if you like - but that's a separate issue. My point is that I wasn't born or raised in any musical tradition. If you're one of those people whose inherited culture includes traditional songs and tunes, that's great: I'm pleased to make your acquaintance and we must have a chat about song variants some time. But I know I'm not one of those people, I'm pretty sure WAV isn't and I suspect most people reading this aren't either.

We're not bearers of the tradition in any meaningful sense. We've ended up listening to and performing traditional material for a whole variety of reasons, but surely the most important is that we like the music. Against that background, to draw a line that excludes non-English material and then claim that everything inside the line is "English culture", which we English people should preserve, is a bit pathetic.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

By way of a postscript, I do think there's such a thing as "English culture", but my definition of English culture includes Irish sessions, gospel choirs and C&W clubs: it's based on what English people actually do, in other words. And I do care deeply about English traditional songs and tunes, and I'd be very sorry if they ceased to be a part of English culture.

But nobody here is perpetuating their tradition or defending the English heritage; we're doing something we find enjoyable, fulfilling and valuable, because we find it enjoyable, fulfilling and valuable. That's my biggest problem with WAV's pathetic anathemata, in fact - it's all so joyless. Stop trying to stamp out other people's fun, WAV - have some fun of your own.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:45 AM

"WAV - have some fun of your own." Phil...goto the "FOLK Image and Presentation thread," Phil, and check out my unions/onions. Or...

Poem 14 of 230: NIGHT OR DAY?!

In the far north of Sweden,
    A "Land of the Midnight Sun,"
A strange thing chanced upon me -
    And I'll tell you, just for fun.

Got off a train late-morning
    (Had to catch same one next day)
And trudged far to the Youth Hostel -
    Paying for a one-night stay.

I spent the afternoon sightseeing,
    Then, after a latish dinner,
Returned to my own small bedroom -
    The comfy bed proving a winner.

For I soon dozed into dreamy sleep -
    Waking what was just two hours hence;
But my watch was an analogue,
    And night or day I couldn't sense!

I quickly packed all my things
    (My train an hour or thirteen on)
And hurried out the bedroom -
    The bright sky a sneaky con.

I wandered down the track a bit
    (The Hostel office empty),
Before a smiling helpful local
    Did kindly enlighten me.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Deeps
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

"For I soon dozed into dreamy sleep..."

Yeah, me too.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Phil, I disagree with you that "at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist". The tradition does continue, but in a relatively few places - some East Anglian pubs, the Sheffield carols, Padstow and Minehead May Day, to name but a few. The tradition exists, albeit in a much reduced form.

However I do agree with you that we're not bearers of the tradition in any meaningful sense. We've picked it up, mostly at second or third hand, and carried it on in a way, but the context is inevitably different.

While I'm proud that it's part of my English heritage, it's not the only part, nor is English music the only part of my musical experience. It's on that issue that I disagree with WAV. I don't play English music to make a point, I play it because I enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM

Howard - fair point, I was exaggerating a bit.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:36 AM

Still a fair point Phil. After the horror of stripping the willow for a Lynn Truss-alike teacher at infant school my next exposure was a girlfriend who visited her village pub's folk club. Even then '74ish with me a daft 17 year old, I could see the songs had more to do with The Graduate than the tradition. It's not a recent phenomenon. From then on it was what folk John Peel happened to play triggering explorations into scary shops.
That's my tradition. Fairly typical I bet.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:44 AM

This from my Myspace blog:

We lovers of traditional song are not so much the keepers of a tradition, rather the volunteer curators of a museum, entrusted with the preservation of a few precious, priceless and irreplaceable artefacts (...) and hoary cases of singular taxidermy wherein beasts long extinct are depicted in a natural habitat long since vanished.

Not only is such a museum a beacon for the naturally curious, it's a treasure in and of itself, an anachronism in age of instant (and invariable soulless) gratification, and as such under constant threat by those who want to see it revamped; cleaned up with computerised displays and interactive exhibits and brought into line with the rest of commodified cultural presently on offer.

But not only is this museum our collective Pit-Rivers, it is a museum which, in itself, is just as much an artefact of a long-vanished era as the objects it contains. It is delicate, and crumbling, but those who truly love it wouldn't have it any other way ...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 10:43 AM

Where you learn you material is no longer the point. Those of us who sing folk songs are folksong singers, not folk singers. But at risk of sounding like Barry Goldwater, there are things that make you you, other than what you saw on telly last night. They include (without limitation) the unspoken conditioning from your parents, the things that are hardwired in your genes, and the cultures you were brought up in and absorbed before you were a fully thinking being.

As they say around Gravesend, you can take the boy out of Denton, but you can't take the Denton out of a boy.

Those are YOUR traditions. We all have such traditions. In some they are more mixed, in others, less mixed.

Going to live in Australia when I was 3 (for 3 years) did not make me Australian. Doing a "stage" in Alsace did not make me French. A cuckoo does not become a tit because it hatches in a tit's nest. No matter how many line-dances I learn they will not make me Texan, and no matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish. And no-one who was not born into, to parents of, and brought up in a cultural milieu will ever understand and feel it like someone who was.


It is however arithmetically incontrovertible that if the only degree in folk music taught in England studies Scottish Irish and English folk music, English folk music is not being studied as much as if it were (or there were) a degree in English folk music.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:09 AM

Yes, Richard, and I just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music.
Also, I had a look at "nature, nurture, or a knitting of both?" in my intro. blank verse poem, 0-19, and decided it was definitely both - with the ratio being much more debatable.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,ESAM
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM

"No matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish"

No matter how gratuously offensive you chose to be it will not make you big or clever.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM

Richard Bridge says:

"Going to live in Australia when I was 3 (for 3 years) did not make me Australian. Doing a "stage" in Alsace did not make me French. A cuckoo does not become a tit because it hatches in a tit's nest."

right...so no one coming to live in England, no matter how long they are here, is ever really going to be part of the culture? And my daughter, because half her genes are not "hardwired" to be English, will never really be as English as you, despite being born and raised here? She's the cuckoo in the nest, is she?


"and no matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish"

Nice overtly racist touch there as your finishing flourish.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

African-Americans, The Irish, who next?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:11 PM

I take great exception to your Irish remark Richard. Great exception. Absolutely uncalled for.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

Can we get Richard Bridge & WAV banned from this forum for their overtly racist remarks?

Disgusting

Others have been banned for things far less offensive. Free speech is great when used with responsibility.

Paul


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:27 PM

I take exception to that remark/cheapshot, Banjiman/Paul - racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done. Questioning immigration, loss of culture, and the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law are other matters.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"and no matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish" said Richard Bridge.
what do you mean by this?
this nationality stuff is crap,I have an English passport,but I am not 100 per cent English,I have Irish and German ancestors as well.
how many English people do not somewhere have some foreign ancestry.
w.av, your own name David Franks suggests Jewish ancestry.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done."

you can repeat this definition all the times you like, WAV - it won't make it any more true. Racism has many forms. Many of your basic philosophies have been proved to be parallel to those of the BNP. But I don't suppose they're racist either in the strange little world you inhabit.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

The elephant in the drawing room for folk, and the reason I've never been comfortable with it at close quarters, is the wretched nonsense on this thread. As I said previously, one man's folk is another mein volk - it's always there, that lump of bigotry, narrow mindedness in a fancy hat and it stops people coming in.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

indeedio, glueman. Which is the only reason I ever started responding to WAV, as I think it's important to object to folk being hitched to the wagon of racism and little Englander insularity.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM

WAV-it's this quote, which you have used many times, and which I still don't understand, that gets you in trouble, "the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law".


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM

To CB - I'm C. of E. but, yes, some of my forebears may have practised the Jewish religion; also, my surname is very common in Christianity as the Franks were the first crusaders. We can accept that that a lot of immigration and conquest has gone on but, still, question whether it should go on; and it would be nice to be able to do so without getting the R and B words, again and again - and that's why I have to keep repeating that line, Ruth; you, and others here, don't like people questioning immigration, so you resort to certain tactics to try and stop them. But, as more-and-more adults accept the difference between racism and questioning immigration, it becomes more-and-more difficult for you to do so. (This time/thread we got to around 200 before you resorted to these tactics - I hope it's the last time.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM

WAV,a crusader eh?so is your idea to be a modern day crusader,defeating the muslims with the pen instead of the sword.
all the muslims leave the country,because they cant stand your poetry,very subtle.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM

The point is if you belong to a white or British or English or Manchester supremicist organisation is your own business but has Absolutely Nothing to do with folk music and some of us are sick of people using it for nefarious purposes.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM

you, and others here, don't like people questioning immigration, so you resort to certain tactics to try and stop them

OK, off we go. Do you think that non-English immigrants should leave England, WAV?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

WAV says, yet again.
"racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done." - so you say

"you, and others here, don't like people questioning immigration, so you resort to certain tactics to try and stop them" - paranoia strikes deep

We've heard all this before WAV and it's no more true now than it was when you first said it


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

Be prepared from a quote from his website, or poetry to answer that Phil. A direct answer might be nice for a change.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM

WAV repeats himself yet again
" as more-and-more adults accept the difference between racism and questioning immigration, it becomes more-and-more difficult for you to do so."

You have no proof at all for this statement, infact I think it's an out-right lie.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

Lots of Poles coming over, rural shops regenerated, traditional agriculture revitalised, churches full again, the values of hard work. Bad idea?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

no resorting. No tactics. You are a racist.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

Look at what CB asked me, my frank accurate answer, and then his following "comment", and you see another e.g. of the tactics those who don't like immigration being question resort to.
To Phil: I think immigration should be controlled by the UN, who should help genuine assylum seekers to their nearest safe country - I'm not saying everyone should do as I've done and repatriate.
To Glueman - what do you think, then, about this, pre-distraction post: "just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music."..?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM

OK, WAV. Step into this handy time machine. It's now 2018 and nothing has been done to control (i.e. limit) immigration as you would have wanted. Do you think the non-English immigrants who have arrived here since 2008 should leave England?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM

WAV once says,I think immigration should be controlled by the UN, who should help genuine assylum seekers to their nearest safe country

Another of WAV's lies

Plain and simple, WAV, you are a racist.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM

But do answer this question, without dodging or quoting your website. Do you think that non-English immigrants should be repatriated or expelled from England?

Franks, the first Crusaders? EH??


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

I wish this thread was closed.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

"the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law". WAV, again break that down, tell us what this means. Because from where I stand, that says someone from Gambia, or India, or Trinidad (multiple number of cultures) living in Great Britain (one state law) is somehow wrong. To put it another way, it says, oh I'm all for multiculturism, just not in my back yard, which is another way of saying England for the English only. You are so bent up on your quote of the UN helping genuine asylum seekers (and by the way, since you spelled asylum wrong on your website, and use the same quote again and again, you spell asylum with a double s everytime-a little irritating) that you fail to recognize people who emigrate legally. If I believe what you wrote to be true, someone legally applying for citizenship without any political issues whatsoever should be denied entrance as well? You're the one who wrote this, so you should have the answers. How do you define the nearest safe country. Someone from Mali should be repatriated to Niger? Someone from Haiti should be repatriated to what, the Dominican Republic? Pithy manifestos on a website that you keep quoting from are open to interpretation from all of us, especially when you keep using them again and again, with little or no elaboration.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM

These are gutter tactics - when asked, I said the facts I, and possibly some of you, knew about my surname and suddenly I'm a Crusader; as well as saying some of my forebears may have been Jewish. I just answered that question Volgadon, but you have to ask it again. And to Def Sheperd, you are trying to equate questioning immigration with racism, which most adults now know is NOT the case. Thus, what you just said IS false and defamatory (please note this moderator). And, you have avoided this on-thread issue: "just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music."..what do you think about this?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:55 PM

just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music."..what do you think about this?

Unimportant

you are trying to equate questioning immigration with racism

I know far better than to simply use one issue, reading all you contributions is what leads me to the conclusion that you are racist, and I stand by it


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Skaskinfolkie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

..anyone see "This is England" on Film 4 last night.
Brilliant entertaining movie and terrific music soundtrack.

Bit of a shame though,
there was'nt near enough folk music in the country pub scene..


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

Repeated false and defamatory language from Def Sheperd - some of whose details you must have, moderator. And, also, something very much on-thread is "unimportant" according to this person.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

irishenglish - haven't you been paying attention? This is exactly what he thinks. Multiculturalism is about everyone staying in their own countires, and no foreigners being admitted to England. And though he won't admit readily that, in a perfect world, he'd like to see all foreigners curently in England re-patriated, he has said that he regrets all immigration for at least the past 40 years.

But he's not a racist...oh no.

I also like it on other threads when he refers to how "we" settle arguments with words, but "they" settle them with bombs. But he's not making generalisations which could be deemed racist. Course not. Presumably this is because he hasn't said specifically who "they" are. But I'm pretty sure Muslims have been alluded to.

It's a sneaky, mean, cowardly form of racism - but it's racism nonetheless.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

oh - and did I mention xenophobia?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

If students don't want to perform English work it may not be because there's a machinery of oppression. Our islands margins have always maintained tradition more than the industrialised centres, why is that weird?
Someone liking the sound of music and working backwards to its traditions will always have a more rounded view than a force-fed social experiment backed by lottery millions no matter how well intentioned. There are only so many ways I can say there isn't an English music but rather the music of England. It's not that most young people don't know what traditional is, or sounds like but that they reject or ignore it. That doesn't arise from Big Brother sucking their brains out but from living in a different world to the one where folk was the only thing around.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM

WAV tries to twist my words. "And, also, something very much on-thread is "unimportant" according to this person.
This what I consider unimportant. It might be important if someone without a racist agenda were commenting

but, overall, no-where near enough, English music about this?

It might be important if someone without a racist agenda were commenting


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM

If you answered already, I apologise, but show me where.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

There's been a trend in modern England, Glueman, that grew strong under New Labour, whereby, rather than just appreciate other cultures, it became cool to practise them, as well, instead of traditional English culture. This trend has not been so strong in Scotland, e.g., hence this statement of fact: I just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

"There's been a trend in modern England, Glueman, that grew strong under New Labour, whereby, rather than just appreciate other cultures, it became cool to practise them, as well, instead of traditional English culture."

evidence please. Credible sources.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM

I'll sing and play Welsh, Scots, Irish and English tunes and songs till the cows come home, it doesn't make me any less English, and I'm not about to cater to a minority of one because he doesn't like it, it just isn't going to happen.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:25 PM

Ruth, WAV still won't offer credible sources (if he has them, which I doubt) for his now infamous immigration and racism quote, so don't hold your breath waiting :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:28 PM

That trend has been going on for all of recorded history on the Sceptered Isle, Wav. The ancient Britons emulating the culture of the continent and the Romans, different waves of migrations/invasions emulating the locals and each other, then the continental fashions brought over by the Normans, then the Italian styles in dress, food, music and literature (Chaucer is definitely influenced by Boccacio, for instance), various German fashions, then French, and what can you say about Handel, a German who wrote music in an Italian style? Then in the 17 & 1800s the Orient was very much in vogue, architecture, food, literature, music, dress, then, under the Victorians especially, Everything Highlandish became the in thing.....


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM

Ruth - for your answer, please goto the rest of my post just above your last one.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Skaskinfolkie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

trouble is,
that kind of 'minority' mindset
has a tendency to accuse and [one way or another] threaten
the rest of us ordinary English folk
for being 'traitors to our race'
whenever we publicly disagree
with their extremist agenda.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

Your words are the proof, hardly a creditable source. No, this just won't do, at least provide us with an independent and creditable source to check, for your outrageous and completely bogus claim


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM

Skaskin, the BNP use exactly the same tactic, calling those who disagree with them traitors, or that other great tactic, they try to silence their opponents. This getting very familiar


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

I've got Michael Palin's New Europe on at the moment, and one Latvian lady, at a traditional gathering, just mentioned all these trad. verses they have for the occasion - but also that people these days are starting to ignore them in favour of just getting drunk. This is but one reason why this issue is important - when people lose their own culture, society suffers (see poem #209, if you want it in shaped verses).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Wrong on so many levels WAV. Scotland were 'voting in' Labour long after England became a Tory perma-state. I used to dance to Dave and Ansel Collins on a battery record player in the street with people off The Windrush. Not instead, instead was nowhere to be found. We were not throwing hearty accordian players into the canal in favour of Desmond Dekkerand the Aces, they were notable by their absense. As they were from my very rural parents Edwardian upbringing who favoured show tunes and music hall ditties. From what little I know of my grandparents and great-grandparents and beyond, they lied about their age to join the army and get into whatever far flung place relieved them of grinding poverty the soonest.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

People getting drunk and forgetting their culture? One TV programme is your source?
The music, in this case, is strong enough to withstand any societal changes, with the exception, perhaps, of censorship. One sort of music and one sort of music only to be played exclusively. Nazi Germany tried that, I believe


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM

WAV, I've seen that program not too long ago. Going on my personal experiences living in Russia, even the drunk bums lying in the gutter have an astounding knowledge of poetry, can recite long verses perfectly, absolutely love and respect them. The problem there is not that people are forgetting their culture, but that they've become too fond of alcohol as a way to solve their problems.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I hate imperialism, DS - be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

More denial and indifference from WAV. More questions asked but never answered. More referals to his poetry for answers. More of his judgement placed upon a subject he is only recently aware of. More of me saying WAV, answer the questions asked of you, the originator of this thread. Are you going to start another thread based upon one of your bulletpoints from your "website." Do me a favor, and tell me which one is next so I can ask you the questions you will ignore now. Wait, let me guess. Extra colours? Strings? Awards? Ends? Wonts?

By the way, Richard, you're not off the hook for your disgusting comment if you are reading this.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

All I said was Nazi Germany tried this (one sort of music only) and I suppose if you state your dislike of imperialism often enough someone might believe you, I won't.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:14 PM

IE - I think I'm very frank on these threads considering what gets done with my frank answers: DS just above, CB, Banjiman, etc. As I say, we got to around 200 this time, before these gutter tactics from a small group of members who cannot stand immigration or loss of culture being questioned in any shape or form. There's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

You're the only one saying there is a loss of culture, just because not everyone wants to sing "English" folk songs all the time does NOT denote a loss of culture, except in your mind


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM

...and those "using gutter tactics" are, of course, those who disagree with your stances on "English" folk music and immigration


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:20 PM

All of those you accuse, WAV, love English culture. They simply don't love it to the exclusion of all else.

Your stance on immigration (admitting you regret the immigration of the past 40 years and insisting that no more should take place) make you xenophobic at best, racist at worst. Especially when combined with some of your other views, as mentioned above.

No one need use any "gutter tactics" - we simply question and challenge your beliefs. You're the one who never gives straight answers to straight questions.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

To try to restore the original thread: I happen to know Ali Anderson, Vic Gammon, Sandra Kerr and others resposible for the Newcastle degree course well enough to know that you would be hard put to find a body of people more immersed in English traditional music. They represent diverse geographical areas of England and have been immersed in their culture for many many years. Their policy by and large is that their students are encouraged to develop the skills and traditions from their own native areas, be they Irish, Scottish, Chinese or whatever. I happen also to know some of the graduates of their courses who are deeply immersed in English folk song. Try Dave Hillery who recently graduated using the Yorkshire songs he had collected in the 60s, comparing repertoires with other English counties. Now please can we give this a rest!!!!
This person is not worthy of your attention!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

What about my culture, beautiful, nuanced and informed being pinched by grumpy white male pedants with a Merrie Olde England fixation?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

Exactly, glueman, exactly


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

To Steve: I think it may have been Dave Hillery I heard last year - a very good unaccompanied E. trad singer; and earlier, I mentioned members of The Devil's Interval who did the degree - but I stand by what I've witnessed and said, there is no-where near enough of suchlike..."I just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music." (above). It's true.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:34 PM

WAV, what are you going to do about it beyond whinging? I know you aren't going to answer my question, at any rate.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:35 PM

Steve Gardham, it's a good point, well made. I, too, know several of the tutors and numerous graduates and have made the same points as you.

Why keep going on? Well, look at WAV's track record. He doesn't just spout this stuff on Mudcat. He spams the internet with his verses and his political opinions. He has "gifted" libraries with his work.

Now, we know he's a sad, backward nutter. But what he's doing is spreading the word that his risible politics are linked with English folk. It's the worst kind of damage to the tradition.

When this thread dies, he'll start another, and another. Again, so what - just ignore him, right? But what about the people who surf in and see his nasty insularity go unchallenged?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: peregrina
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

WAV: an archaeologist once said that humans are a diasporic species. We all started in Africa and spread across the globe.

Stories and music have spread just as widely: with people on the move, and by being passed on--look at a folklore motif index if you want one illustration of this. Or, as others have pointed out, the transmission of the ballads.

England itself is an amalgam of people and languages and has been constantly changed (and culturally enriched) by incomers: celts, romans, angles, saxons, jutes, scandinavians from various areas, normans and so on--and that's a very incomplete list for the first millennium. The richness of the English language itself reflects all of these peoples' speech.
For populations and culture (including music), all is flux, always has been and will be. If you don't agree, just try subtracting all the non-Anglo-Saxon words from your own conversation and poetry.

Building walls has never worked. We are one species and that's part of why foreign stories and music can touch us enough to lead us to want to adopt them--these things belong to us all and can be shared.

In the long term national boundaries will continue to shift and cultural activities will evolve and be enriched by exchange. Building walls has never worked. Not in Berlin. Not in Cyprus. Not for the Romans. You can't pull up the drawbridge now either. Throughout history, political movements that try to enshrine a 'moment of primary acquisition' lead to violence, exclusion, racial ideology.

If you are worried that English traditional music (or better, the diversity of English regional musical cultures) won't survive without the fiat of a university syllabus, then think again. Or maybe try to be the kind of ambassador for the tradition who can make others want to learn the songs and tunes.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:41 PM

And if you keep repeating the lie, it becomes the truth? No it does not


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM

No WAV, I'd have to GET a frank answer from you on any of the many questions myself and others have asked you for you to even be able to say that. You evade direct questions. Why if you could eliminate what you perceive to be attacks upon you, do you answer with prose, or quotes from other threads? Perhaps if you answered directly you might not be getting misunderstood or attacked. Again and again, you quote this poem, or that poem, or something that has no relation to the direct question asked upon you. That is evading the question.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Ruth,
Yes you are right.I concur. This is how the Nazis got started, people turning a blind eye to false propaganda and ideologies.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Why not increase the size of the department in Glasgow to accommodate more Scottish students, and change the degree in Newcastle to one in English folk music, to match that in Glasgow, and Limerick?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

I answered the questions please see Here ;-)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM

WAV said, "Why not increase the size of the department in Glasgow to accommodate more Scottish students, and change the degree in Newcastle to one in English folk music"

Sorry I don't see the British tax payers going for this one, because it would be they who'd end up footing the bill, make no mistake. It simply is not going to happen.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM

It would be nice to think this thread would die of ennui. OTOH folk does have the whiff of swivel-eyed zealotry about it and if the topic burns itself out here rather than growing like weeds in every other thread I'm happy to keep feeding it.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:02 PM

glueman, it would also entail WAV going away and never coming back, but unfortunately, that isn't going to happen!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:03 PM

Democracy, that most English of all English institutions, should have the final say here.

It's increasingly clear to me
That WAV's English Folk Music degree'
Has no real concensus
And insults the senses
Of most English folk here,
You'd agree?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:10 PM

Guest, Refereee, how very McGonagall of you :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

No - "Off-side, Ref."...there could be a silent majority who want that degree just as much as me; and fancy a "final say" ending with the question "You'd agree?"


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

From the poet McGoonagal

Fellow citizens of Merry England
Are ye aware how Mudcatters have treated me?
Nay, I do not stare or make a fuss
When I tell ye they have sussed me
Which in my opinion is a great shame,
And a dishonour to England's name

I'll get my goat :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:17 PM

WAV says, "there could be a silent majority who want that degree just as much as me"

You have no proof of this, it is all wishful thinking on your part


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:31 PM

A degree course doesn't need to be LABELLED 'English Traditional Music' to include English traditional music.

Universities need to attract as many students as possible, and the fact that Scottish and Irish universities have undergraduate courses on musics of their respective countries is presumably because they've done their market research and know this is what students, and their tax payers, want. It's also a political thing, because those countries have historically needed to assert their identities as a response to perceived Anglicisation.

WAV fails to recognise that tunes and songs don't recognise geographical borders in their travels. The early collectors were set on finding a 'national music', but we've moved beyond that now, surely. Most (not all, eg Kidson) also prioritized orally transmitted songs as being in some sense 'pure' folk. We now know that broadsides, music hall, dialect poetry, printed music collections and even recordings have informed the kind of traditional folk music we all love.

The music of these isles is a wonderful kaleidoscope of songs and tunes: a rich mix indeed. As Greg Stephens says elsewhere: "there never was any such animal as 'English traditional music', just various different kinds of 'traditional music in England', quite a different concept altogether."


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:40 PM

Sue says, "'traditional music in England'"
I use regional music, to me there is no one "English Trad." There's the West Midlands, for example (where I'm from) It's from this locale that I use Christmas carols for my Christmas programme. I have performed that wonderfully strange song from Sussex, Come All You Little Streamers, learned from the singing of Shirley Collins


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:41 PM

Wav, I think it was Ruth on another thread, Scarborough Fair? gave the most pertinent answer to your question. Apparently it's all about economics/money and bums on seats. Ireland and Scotland can attract more students to their own causes from the native stock. We can't as yet, so we end up with those horrible foreigners in our universities! Horror of horrors! I live near Hull Uni and you can't step outside the door without tripping over half a dozen Chinese students.

Then again I organised a Traditional Song Forum meeting last year at Sheffield Uni Music Dept and the stars of the show were 3 Chinese singers/musicians, students on the Ethnomusiclogy course. How dare they invade our wonderful English folk song meetings!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

Absolutely Sue. Unfortunately, you, me and others have either already said this, or quoted from other sources regarding this point for the benefit of WAV. Just this morning I quoted for WAV's benefit from Reg Hall's notes to the Voice Of The People. Silence was the answer. Or another poem.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM

I went out three hours ago, just after posting my question at 01:31 above. Ten more comments from WAV, but no reply. Quelle surprise.

you are trying to equate questioning immigration with racism, which most adults now know is NOT the case

This is starting to get annoying. Of course it's the case - how could it not be?

I'll rephrase that. The only way that "questioning immigration" would not equal "racism" would be if immigration were being questioned on grounds completely unrelated to 'race' and the concepts that cluster round it - nationality, ethnicity, culture, religion, etc. We could, for example, question whether anyone should be allowed to enter the country, and never mind where they worship or who their parents are.

But this obviously isn't the kind of "questioning" WAV has in mind. The man's a racist.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

I believe in the English nation AND the United Nations AND a degree in English folk music (inclusive of regional variations), to match what our good Scottish and Irish neighbours (with their regional variations) already have.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

But what do you do about the 'English folk music' from the north of England (Cumbrian and Northumberland) with all the tunes and songs and variants thereof this region shares with Scotland? Some of the repertoire here is much more closely related to Scottish music than music styles and repertoires from the south of England. I repeat, songs and tunes don't heed geographical or political boundaries and need to be studied in their wider context. Perhaps it's a pity the Scottish and Irish courses aren't just called Traditional Folk Music courses ...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

to be fair to David Franks,I dont think he objects to foreigners playing English music,or have I misunderstood you Mr Franks.do you object to foreigners playing English music?
Richard Bridge also made an anti Irish remark,he has gone very quiet.,I think in his case it was just a thoughtless remark,which he probably now regrets,I have read a fair few of his posts and he never struck me as a racist.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

Heard that answer before WAV. Starting to sound like a broken record....er


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Peter Beta
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:05 PM

Reading through this thread, it strikes me that there are basically two strands of opinion here: the bottom-feeding bigots...and WAV!

(Only partly in jest: here's a thought...how about if you people oppose intolerance and closed-mindedness, don't practice it. I think you all know what I'm talking about)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:06 PM

verey good point Sue,someone living in BERWICK UPON TWEED,is likely to beinfluenced by scottish music more so than someone living in Devon


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Wav, (in desperation) You can do a degree in English folk music in most universities in England, probably anywhere for that matter. You might need a degree in something else first, but any University worth its salt that has a Music Dept will let you do an MMus or PhD if you can prove you can whack it. Sheffield, York, Hull, Newcastle, Leeds, Salford, etc etc. I was offered a PhD course in folk music at Sheffield Music Dept and I haven't even got a degree!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

WAV once more says. "I believe in the English nation AND the United Nations AND a degree in English folk music"

What DOES the UN have to do with any of this? I'll tell you, absolutely nothing, it's WAV's way of stating" I absolutely don't know what I'm talking about" He always takes this tack when confronted with direct questions for which he has no answers. It's all pseudo-nationalistic nonsense on WAV's part.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: oggie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

The most enjoyable session I take part in is an occassional one at a Kurdish Cafe where there are a dozen or more of us, from different countries, who each play a tune we know and the rest join in as they will. What comes out can be radically different from what it started as. It's not "folk music" from any country, it's musicians exploring what unites and learning as we go.

There are no geographical boundaries (except to the funders).

Steve


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:20 PM

In answer to Peter Beta, I'm too old and ugly to care about people's politics enough to take them to task over it. I do resent a music form I hold dear being used as a Trojan horse to explore national identity in its more negative and macabre forms. Visionaries like Blake could hold the land sacred at the same time as looking beyond its boundaries, real and metaphorical. Imagined villages, like imagined nations are all very well but it depends on what they imagine, surely?
There are only so many threads you can open with a subtext of aren't we great, isn't everyone else trying to put us down and what should we be doing about it before goodwill evaporates.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM

Don't you PC screamers know the song "The Old Alarum Clock"?

Don't you notice the Irish songs celebrating the deaths of the English?

You only notice when I pick up the song and parody a line from it?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:35 PM

Sorry Peter Beta, if think for one moment, I am going to agree with any of WAV's nonsense, you've got another think coming. I think you what I'm talking about.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:40 PM

Recorded, I think, by both the Dubliners and Dominic Behan.

The Old Alarm Clock
(Trad)
When first I came to London in the year of 'thirty-nine
The city looked so wonderful and the girls were so divine
But the coppers got suspicious and they soon gave me the knock
I was charged with being the owner of an old alarm clock

Oh next morning down by Marlborough Street I caused no little stir
The IRA were busy and the telephones did bar
Said the judge, I'm going to charge you with the possession of this machine
And I'm also going to charge you with the wearing of the green

Now says I to him , Your Honour, if you'll give me half a chance
I'll show you how my small machine can make the peelers dance
It ticks away politely till you get an awful shock
And it ticks away the gelignite in my old alarm clock

Said the judge, Now listen here, my man, and I'll tell you of our plan
For you and I are countrymen I do not give a damn
The only time you'll take is mine - ten years in Dartmoor dock
And you can count it by the ticking of your old alarm clock

Now this lonely Dartmoor city would put many in the jigs
The cell it isn't pretty and it isn't very big
Sure I'd long ago have left the place if I had only got
My couple of sticks of gelignite and my own alarm clock


Tune: The Garden Where the Praties Grow


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

Thanks Steve - but I was aware of that, including knowing someone doing a PhD in Sheffield, who did the Honours degree in Newcastle, that I hope converts to an English folk degree, with close ties to the EFDSS in London. And to quote the just-mentioned Blake: "I will not cease from mental fight" (Jerusalem) toward this end.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

Mental fight? Mental certainly. I can't believe we're still arguing with him.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

I'm far from PC, I simply won't have English Trad Arr. used as a vehicle for someone's nationalistic agenda
and you know what? That really isn't a very good song, no matter what country it come from.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:21 PM

Actually, I don't think it's trad, but I have lost count of the times I've heard Irish singers sing it AT an English pub audience. No-one criticises that.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM

I don't believe I said it was trad in the first place.It's not a very good song, as I did say, regardless of whether it's trad or not; so why would it deserve any notice, except of course if someone wanted to use it as a point of arguement.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM

Oh, and while I'm at it

Wikipedia on "Roots"

Nothing to apologise for, I think.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:29 PM

Now he's using the EFDSS in his bogus arguements. One word, DON'T! I will never be a "convert" to the idea of an English folk degree.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:31 PM

Oh no, not another who considers Wikipedia to be a reliable soucre ARRRRRRRGGGGHHH!!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM

"Don't you PC screamers know the song "The Old Alarum Clock"?

Don't you notice the Irish songs celebrating the deaths of the English?

You only notice when I pick up the song and parody a line from it?"

The lyrics of a particular song (I've been to loads of Irish sessions and I've never heard it) is no excuse for making sweeping generalisations about the Irish people based on an outdated and offensive stereotype.

WAV, please leave the EFDSS out of your twisted political agenda. It is an inclusive organisation.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM

Interesting though that the Wikipedia article says "'Roots' is a work of the imagination rather than strict historical scholarship. It was an important event because it captured everyone's imagination." A metaphor for English (or Irish, or Scottish ... and why does no one ever mention Welsh?) traditional music then?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:15 PM

Richard Bridge,Ihave never heard it before,I live in Ireland,and regularly play at Irish music sessions.
I asked you what you meant:no answer.
I think your remark was in poor taste,and easily could have appeared that you were reinforcing stereo types,eg all Irish people go around blowing people up.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:39 PM

Mmmmm...... The lynch mob is out and they're baying for the blood of the two heinous criminals: Richard "Bugsy" Bridge and WAV (well-armed Vern).

C'mon, you lot, ease off on the hysteria. I've seen "racist", "fascist", "BNP" and "Nazi" used on this thread, used by people who don't seem to fully understand their meaning (or is it just laziness?), and who, it would appear, have little or no first hand experience of such things. Some of the comments above are reminiscent of Basil Fawlty in "The Germans".

WAV's and Richard's views are certainly unfashionable in some quarters, and are not considered particularly PC in the present climate, where you can't say "boo" to a goose without being pulled up by some busybody, but I don't honestly think that either of them merit being name-called like that.

Calm down!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Peter Beta
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:15 AM

Indeed, but sadly it would appear that some have nothing better to do with their lives than engage in name-calling on internet forums. I know who I'd rather spend an evening with.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:30 AM

Not a witch hunt. Just the same rot that defines so many people's idea of folk, the crap that's in its dna repeating itself over and over.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:12 AM

Melodeonboy, WAV wants to limit immigration so as to preserve English culture. In what sense is that not racist?

And I'm still waiting for a reply to my question of last night - if you're against the country taking in any more of them now, what do you say about those of them who have arrived recently? What can you say, logically, except that you want them to leave?

I'm tired of playing Whack-a-mole with this twit. I'm beginning to doubt that he's got any interest in music at all - certainly he seems to have difficulty avoiding the topic of immigration. (And he can't say he wasn't warned.)
The next time he pops up, maybe we should just ignore him - let him commune with his 'silent majority'.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: stallion
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:29 AM

I popped in to see what the latest offering on the nukey folkie degree course and found the thread to be way off topic, reading the latest threads I can't be arsed to read through and find the root. Anyway, I met a couple of undergraduates of the said course last weekend, excellent musicians but, I refer what I said in my earlier posts, in contrast to "The Young uns" who have confidence, charisma and no arrogance whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

And, for what it's worth, Stallion, I too offered my support for The Young'uns - but they, sadly, do stand out among young English folkies in their respect for, and desire to perform, their own good English culture. (There are many more young folkies in Scotland, it seems to me, who have the same good attitude - appreciating others but leaning toward their own good culture in practise/performance.)
"WAV wants to limit immigration so as to preserve English culture. In what sense is that not racist?" Phil...that is the questioning of immigration - NOT racism; and even some in New Labour, after a decade of promotion, have recently began to raise questions regarding immigration, diversity, assimilation, etc; do you ever get the news?
I really DO like the world being multicultural, and I question immigration.
"I simply won't have English Trad Arr. used as a vehicle for someone's nationalistic agenda" DS...in Scotland, Scottish folk HAS been linked to Scottish nationalism.
"and why does no one ever mention Welsh?) traditional music then?" Sue...I'm aware of Ty Siamas (on my myspace Top Friens) but not any Welsh folk degree - but, yes, there should be one; I get some Welsh folk music on Saturday night's Celtic Heartbeat, via satellite, and have really enjoyed LISTENING TO it.
"Jerusalem" is NOT trad. - the words are KNOWN to be by Blake, and the tune is KNOWN to be by Parry (whether it is an anthem or a hymn is, rather, debatable).
And, lastly, why should the EFDSS be kept out of an argument for an English folk degree? (And please try to respond/argue/debate/"fight" sensibly, without the gutter tactics from now on.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:27 AM

WAV, you talk about gutter tactic, but you twist people's words, to make it seem like they are agreeing with you and you won't answer straight questions.
Do you like England being multicultural?
One more question. Do you like morris dancing?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

If you go to youtube, there is a nice video of the Young'uns playing 'Pay me my money down'.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

...and another of them doing 'Country Road' by James Taylor.

I'm sure they are just singing the songs they like without letting anything else get in the way. Thats what most of us are doing.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:39 AM

I am glad that the Newcastle degree puts the traditional music of the British Isles into a wider context, while allowing students to specialise in areas of their choice. I believe this will turn out students with a better knowledge of their own traditions and a greater acceptance of others. To quote Kipling, "What do they know of England, who only England know?"

The Irish, Scots and Welsh have their own social and political reasons for concentrating on their own music. However I often find that many of them are closed to other forms of traditional music, which I find regrettable. For me, one of the joys of playing in "English music" sessions is that they will often include tunes from other traditions as well. I prefer this more open-minded attitude and I don't believe I am undermining my own culture in doing so. I also believe it is consistent with traditional practice, since the "old boys" would gladly pick up good songs and tunes from wherever they could.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:09 AM

I think what I've found with sessions is that they are very individual and can vary quite a bit on what might be acceptable. As far as I've heard (I'm afraid I've not got there - I can't travel 20 miles often in a week and "prioritise" according to my musical preferences), you would be more likely to get "told off" for as maybe as a one off inserting something not English in the English session than you would for inserting something not Irish in the Irish session which takes place in the same pub (and I have played a couple of Welsh tunes in that one). Another Irish session I go to is stricter...

Of course, re the tunes, (as I think you noted before?) there is some crossover anyway - some are just played differently.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:10 AM

"FOLK MUSIC: music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic, or regional culture." (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia). And you are ASSUMING, Howard, that the Scots who, like me, lean toward practising/performing their own good culture do not appreciate listening to that of other nations. (See poems 212 and 213, on this, if you like.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

But you are assuming that they don't enjoy playing music that they like, REGARDLESS of where it originated.
Anyway, are you going to answer my two questions, at least answe the morris one.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:15 AM

WAV says: '"Jerusalem" is NOT trad. - the words are KNOWN to be by Blake, and the tune is KNOWN to be by Parry'

This is a spurious argument: just because a song has known origins does not meant it can't be classed as folk music and ultimately thought of as 'traditional'. Sometimes songs or tunes widely thought to be trad. do in fact turn out to have composers when someone bothers to research them more closely.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM

What's Philip's Essential Encyclopedia? Never mind - here's the International Folk Music Council's [in]famous 1954 definition of folk music:

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives ... The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community ... The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

In other words, the IFMC defined folk music without saying anything about what it 'expresses' or assuming that the community it derives from corresponds to any identifiable 'national, ethnic or regional culture'. I think they were right.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

"WAV wants to limit immigration so as to preserve English culture. In what sense is that not racist?" Phil...that is the questioning of immigration - NOT racism

My point is that you're questioning immigration on the basis of race. You don't want to keep people out because you're afraid they'll put your local plumber out of a job or put a strain on class size in your local school: you want to keep them out because you're afraid they'll damage English culture. Which means that you only want to keep certain people out - and you define the people you want to keep out on the basis of their not being ancestrally and culturally English. You believe in mono-ethnic, mono-cultural nations - you've actually said so.

Look, if I said I deeply respected gay people but I'd rather not have anything to do with them in my daily life, most people would think I was prejudiced against gays. If I said I deeply respected Jews but I'd much rather they all left this country and emigrated to Israel, most people would suspect me of anti-semitism. And when you say you're not racist but you think different races and cultures shouldn't mix, I think most people here have a similar reaction.

Still no answer to the 'time machine' question: how can you say you want to stop non-English people coming here, then say you've got nothing against the non-English people who are here already?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

And also for information (and I've just posted this on the FOlk vs Folk thread too ... so apologies to anyone who read that first):

Maud Karpeles wrote an article in Ethnomusicology magazine (Vol 1 No9 1957) called "The International Folk Music Council: its aims and activities", in her capacity as Hon. Sec. of the Council. It opens:

The International Folk Music Council , which was founded in London in 1947, is a worldwide organization with a membership drawn from over fifty countries and an Executive Board which is served by members from fourteen countries. Its President is Dr R Vaughan Williams. It is affiliated to Unesco through the International Music Council, of which it is a member.
The Council's aims are (i) to assist in the preservation of folk music (and dance) of all countries; (ii) to further its study; and (iii) to encourage its present day practice.

Following the formulation of the 1954 definition Maud Karpeles also, if memory serves me right wrote, a piece adding various riders to the original … but I'd have to check details at home (am at work at present with no access to academic journals)

The IFMC morphed at a later date - someone with more information than me mentioned this recently on a thread, with reasons why - into the International Council for Traditional Music.

The ICTM stated aims are quite different, it seems:
"The aims of the ICTM are to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries."


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

And I, Phil, think they were right to state "Folk music...can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer" BUT, Sue, it would be wrong to say this of traditional music: when the composer(s) is/are known they should always be credited, and their piece should NOT be called traditional.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:45 AM

Granted, WAV ... provided you DO know that a given piece is traditional. The point was you may need to do additional research to find that out, as lots of songs and tunes regarded as 'traditional' aren't.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:49 AM

WAV, are you going to answer?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

And I, Phil,

Got to disagree with you there. I, Phil - you, Walkaboutsverse. But hummus?




(Not gutter tactics, just lunchtime silliness.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:04 AM

Agreed Sue, I thought for a while that "Miner's Lifeguard," e.g., was traditional - until I noticed on DigiTrad "Charles Davies Tillman, words anon."...so whenever someone at a folk club sings this good folk song, they should credit him, or be told of him by the others.
To Volgadon - I did, but either it didn't get through or the Mod. deleted it, perhaps, understandably, for repetitiveness, so please see above.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Oh, the English Folk Degree,
That's the one for me,
Singing ancient ballads
With a milkmaid on my knee.
I've taken all the blood tests
And I'm perfect racially,
I've got the right credentials
For the English Folk Degree.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Where above did you answer my questions? I'll repost them.
Do you like England being multicultural?
One more question. Do you like morris dancing?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM

Come to think of it, has anybody ever had a post deleted for repetitiveness? WAV must be the first, anyway, he's used that tactic before, pretending he's already said it, hoping you'll grow tired of wading through all the posts.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM

Your versification is okay, I think, Ref. - but we are dealing with culture here NOT race; and, as I put on my myspace header, Volgadon, I believe in "a multicultural WORLD" but question the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law. And, yes, I've enjoyed the sights and sounds of Morris...and you?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM

WAV, you STILL haven't answered my question. Yes or no first, then you can elaborate. Do you like ENGLAND being multicultural?

I like a lot of morris, not everything, but the point I wanted to make is this. Morris is a classic example of Englishmen playing and dancing something from a different culture!!!!!!! Spanish court dance with Islamic influences.

What does poem #212 have to do with Scots listening to music of other nations?

213   MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi and there is tennis,

    Line is fine but so is Morris,

There is curry and there is the roast,

    And, when England is playing host,

It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

What on earth has tai-chi to do with tennis? It's like saying there is PG Wodehouse and there is that myspace blogger.
Line and moriss, two vastly different dances. Line is probably a lot easier, at least for me. Morris, just like line dancing, was an important too.
There is nothing uniquely English about a roast, that's a very old technique found all over the world. Britain has played a far more important role in developing curry than it has in the roast.
So, what exactly is culture that is English?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:32 AM

Do you like morris dancing?
Will you answer Volgadon?
And maybe while you're at it,
Will you tell us what you're on?
You're argument has run it's course,
There's nothing left to say.
Agree to disagree and live
To fight another day.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM

Volgadon - could you please respect the (C) on my poems and NOT post them willy nilly...it's meant to read like this (the italics are lost in the browser).

Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:21 AM

14.45 by the old quartz digital, so time for a break & to catch up on the morning's events on Mudcat, and to dare dip a toe into the turbulent waters of this particular thread where everything seems to be quiet enough (for now) despite WAVs ongoing reluctance to actually answer any of the questions being asked of him.

It's a curious thing, WAV, but, having stopped writing poetry, and travelling, presumably, have you also stopped thinking? I don't mean this derogatorily, rather you seem to have done your writing, hung up your knapsack, learnt your 17 folk songs and your 17 hymns, reached your conclusions and now it's just a matter of somehow promoting this life's work. No matter what anyone says here, you continue to quote from your conclusions, repeating the same stuff over and over without ever actually entering into any sort of discussion at all. These are your stock answers, your canon, your absolute rule, against which you dare not transgress, no matter how wrong it can be proven that these rules are. You persist in this wilful ignorance (how else can I describe it?) despite anything you are told - your bit on fiddles for example, or English Instruments - a little tweaking here and there, as with the poetry, but otherwise, nothing changes. You might have written it in stone.

I'm just observing here, not criticising, out of a genuine curiosity, trying to get the measure of the frustration you seem to engender whenever you open a thread, as well as trying to understand why you approach things the way you do, in the hope that maybe others might come to understand this too, and perhaps avoid the sort hysterical hullabaloo than usually transpires when you opens a thread.

As for your racism, you have a stock answer for that too, derived from a far milder interpretation of racism (as mere ethnic stereotyping) than anyone here would understand it, and so you respond accordingly, thinking, no doubt that all is well. But England is very sick rose indeed, WAV; racism is the invisible worm that flies in the night in the howling storm, its dark secret love does our life destroy. This sickness is endemic, it infects and effects us all, it effects society by infecting individuals, it effects individuals by infecting society; it bites at the core of humanity, reason, and love, and tolerance, and thus the invisible worm flies on, and on, and on, and the only cure, alas, is outing it wheresoever we find it, in the oft vain hope that enlightenment will, at last, prevail. Seldom, however, is it ever so simple...

I often wonder why you have chosen to settle in Newcastle-upon-Tyne rather than Manchester, the place of your birth; why in your love of a multi-cultural world you wilfully avoid the multi-cultural regionalism which divides England just as much as the nominal borders with Scotland and Wales. If I consider this in relationship to the above, and on the evidence of your attitude thus far on these threads, then the answer might seem clear enough. If we go to the website of The Commision for Racial Equality we find that in Newcastle the diversity index score is 0.18, with 93.1% of the population being white, whereas in Manchester (England's third most ethnically diverse city) it is 0.44, with only 80.9% of the population being white. The North-East is England's least ethically diverse region in England, and whilst Newcastle is the most ethically diverse city in the region only three ethnic minority sub-groups - Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Chinese - are statistically better represented here than the national average. It's a good site, WAV - I advise you strongly to add it to your favourites.

Meanwhile, I'm off for a sarnie - Laughing Cow and some of that boiled calf's head left over off last night's authentic Victorian repast.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

If I am repeatedly asked the same questions, and if I do always tend to be frank/open in my answers, then, Sedayne, those answers are going to be similar. May I ask a question of you - do you accept that there is a difference between questioning immigration/the multicultural state and being racist. I.e: someone who does question immigration may OR MAY NOT be racist. God knows how many times, in prose and verse, I've tried to explain this.
In Manchester, all the manufacturing companies I knew of, within range of public transport, already knew I was looking for work, so I spent a weekend looking around the NE, and liked Newcastle in particular...I've done a couple of temporary contracts but it has not worked out so well - however, I still like it here, okay? You can even hear me sing about this on myspace, if you wish - Tees to Tyne: first impressions.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

If I am repeatedly asked the same questions, and if I do always tend to be frank/open in my answers, then, Sedayne, those answers are going to be similar.

I think I've spotted a flaw in this argument. (No answer yet to the "time machine" question.)

someone who does question immigration may OR MAY NOT be racist

I agree. However, someone who questions immigration on racial grounds is racist; the same goes for anyone who advocates a mono-racial society. "we are dealing with culture here NOT race" - so what questions are you going to ask at the airport, to decide who gets let in? Can they sing "Greensleeves"? That's most of the English population out...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:12 AM

Ah but WAV, several of us have asked you many different questions, to which you avoid the answer, instead giving us your verbatim prose or statements from your "website", sometimes with the same words spelled incorrectly, because you cut and paste from your website again and again. Now's my chance to do the same. WAV,you are "Starting to sound like a broken record....er." Another one I asked you yesterday, and which Sedayne alluded to as well. OK, you have your beliefs, you start a thread here on mudcat. People disagree with you, you quote from your prose. People disagree more with you, you quote from your prose. People start accusing you of serious things, you quote from your prose. No explanations, no elaboration, no agreement, no disagreement, you just quote from your prose. Why on earth if people were accusing you of something as serious as racism, would you choose to repeat, again, and again your prose as an answer. Wouldn't you want to take the time and give a thoughtfully worded answer, maybe even an apology, for words that you feel are antagonistic towards you? Instead....more prose. In fact, I'm waiting for that as your answer to me, that's if I get an answer from you.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:23 AM

As it's hard for you to answer questions in a straightforward fashion, I am going to make some statements, WAV. You just tell us whether you agree or disagree with them:

Although it is impractical, in a perfect world you would really like it if all immigrants currently living in England were to return to their country of origin.

You dislike immigration to England because it pollutes/dilutes English culture.

You like other cultures, so long as they stay in their own countries.

You want English people to practise English culture, and would not like people who come from other places pracising that culture - they should stick to their own traditions.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:52 AM

WAV, don't be silly. Did I claim it wasn't yours? I don't see how I disrespected your copyright. It's your own website to blame, as I C&Ped straight from it.

Absolutely no comment about morris dancing being an import?

WAV, are all the songs you sing from the Manchester area?

Do you like ENGLAND being multicultural?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

In the real world people hold all kinds of beliefs others find unattractive or even criminal. In factories I've heard toe curling opinions that would get you a knock on the door if you expressed them in public. None of that bears on this issue WAV - you can believe what you like.
What cheeses me right off is the tradition being a carrier signal for those kinds of views, being guilty by association, which it certainly is. If you want a debate on the difference between immigration and asylum, or whether the cultural balance of the country has been changed for the worse have them openly. Your lack of clear answers or the belief you've written the last word on the subject to be cut and pasted to the confused confirms everyone's suspicions that you're on a mission - and not just one to collect folk songs.

I hate witch hunts too but I dislike zealotry in a nice hat. Englishness, like folk, is a loaded term these days. I just want to be sure we're talking about the same thing.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

Here's a bit of potry to counter the xenophobic drivel (and doggerel):

My mother was half English and I'm half English too
I'm a great big bundle of culture tied up in the red white and blue
I'm a fine example of your Essex man
And I'm well familiar with the Hindustan
Cos my neighbours are half English and I'm half English too

My breakfast was half English and so am I you know
I had a plate of Marmite soldiers washed down with a cappuccino
And I have a veggie curry about once a week
The next day I fry it up as bubble and squeak
Cos my appetites half English and I'm half English too

Dance with me to this very English melody
From morris dancing to Morrissey,
all that stuff came from across the sea

Britannia, she's half English, she speaks Latin at home
St George was born in the Lebanon, how he got here I don't know
And those three lions on your shirt,
They never sprang from England's dirt
Them lions are half English and I'm half English too

Le-li Umma le-li-ya, le-li Umma le-li-ya,
Le-li Umma le-li-ya, bledi g'desh akh! le-li-ya

Oh my country, what a beautiful country you are

- Billy Bragg


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

OOOH Volgadon, I think you hit the space bar between his lines of prose, tsk, tsk! Oh, and you didn't use capital letters for a few words. Oh the horror!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

My comment about Scots and Irish tending to be more narrowly focussed on their own music was simply based on my observations of playing in many sessions throughout the UK over many years. On the whole, I have found that musicians in Scottish and Irish sessions have tended to be less accepting of tunes from other cultures than have musicians in "English" sessions.

Of course, every session is different and not all are like that. I certainly wouldn't claim that all Scots and Irish musicians are like that. But I think they do tend to be narrowly focussed on their own traditions and this is sometimes to the exclusion of other influences. WAV will think this a good thing. I disagree.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

Ruth, thanks for the Bragg song.
Now for something truly British:

You know, it's a curious thing, I don't know if you've ever thought of this, but England hasn't really got a national song, you know, just for England; there's plenty for Great Britain. That's quite different. You have to be very careful how you use these terms, too. The rule is: if we've done anything good, it's "another triumph for Great Britain" and if we haven't, it's "England loses again". Have you noticed that?
All the others, they've got songs about their countries, you know, the Scots, like "Scotland for aye" (or for "me" as it should more properly be). And the Welsh and the Irish have got songs saying how marvelous they are and making rude remarks about the English in their own languages. In the case of the Welsh I think this is the pot calling the saucepan "bach".
What English national song have we got? "Jerusalem" . . . "There'll always be an England". Well, that's not saying much, is it? I mean, there'll always be a North Pole, if some dangerous clown doesn't go and melt it.
I think that the reason for this is that in the old days - you know, the good old days when I was a boy - people didn't, we didn't bother in England about nationalism. I mean, nationalism was on its way out. We'd got pretty well everything we wanted and we didn't go around saying how marvelous we were - everybody knew that - any more than we bothered to put our names on our stamps. I mean, there's only two kinds of stamps: English stamps in sets at the beginning of the album, and foreign stamps all mixed at the other end. Any gibbon could tell you that.
But nowadays nationalism is on the up and up and everybody has a national song but us. The Americans have national songs, like "My country 'tis of thee", which they sing to the tune of "God save the Queen", I may say, and which together with their long range forecasting of our weather I find hard to forgive. Yes, and the Germans - and whatever you say about the Germans (and who doesn't) - what a marvelous song that was: "German, German overalls". Now there's a song.
Well, the moment has come, and none too soon; we have a song here which, I think, fills this long-felt want and I hope that all true-born English men and women in our audience will join in the last chorus. And if you don't have the good fortune to be English true-born, or a man, or a woman, I hope you'll join in as an ordinary mark of simple decent respect. This song starts with, I think, a very typical English understatement.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker, as likely as not.

Och aye, awa' wi' yon Edinburgh Festival

The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way!

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

Ah hit me old mother over the head with a shillelagh

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price

Ah, iechyd da

The Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!

The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.

And all the world over, each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.

It's not that they're wicked or natuarally bad
It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad!

For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald (Michael)
Donald (Michael) and Me!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:24 PM

WAV, a piece can be both composed and traditional. Provided it has been adopted into the oral tradition and adapted by it, it becomes traditional. The fact that we may know the identity of the original composer doesn't alter that. However where a piece is adopted without being changed, then it is not traditional.

All music was composed by someone, it is pure chance whether or not we know their identity. Some pieces have been passed on through the oral tradition for hundreds of years. If some diligent researcher now turns up the original composer, does that make them any less traditional? I don't think so.


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Subject: Lyr Add: FINLAND (Monty Python)
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM

Volgadon, sorry, but based on that, I just couldn't resist this bit of Monty Python,


Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I want to be
Pony trekking or camping
Or just watching TV
Finland, Finland, Finland
It's the country for me

You're so near to Russia
So far from Japan
Quite a long way from Cairo
Lots of miles from Vietnam

Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I want to be
Eating breakfast or dinner
Or snack lunch in the hall
Finland, Finland, Finland
Finland has it all

You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored
A poor second to Belgium
When going abroad

Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I quite want to be
Your mountains so lofty
Your treetops so tall
Finland, Finland, Finland
Finland has it all

Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I quite want to be
Your mountains so lofty
Your treetops so tall
Finland, Finland, Finland
Finland has it all

Finland has it all


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

do you accept that there is a difference between questioning immigration/the multicultural state and being racist. I.e: someone who does question immigration may OR MAY NOT be racist

Of course I bloody don't; no one in their right minds would. The questioning of immigration and the multi-cultural state is racist by default otherwise it just wouldn't be an issue, as, in truth, it isn't with most people who understand the cultural & economic realities of modern England & embrace the consequent ethnic diversity - sorry: multi-culturalism. If you weren't racist, you'd make bloody sure there was no such ambiguity in your published philosophy. Not only does such ambiguity exist, however, it is outed on every thread & forum you turn up on.    People who struggle against racism do not do so by opposing immigraton & ethnic diversity (sorry - multi-culturalism); and they certainly do not throw out such overtly racist rhetoric as:

English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

Apart from anything else, in no way, shape or form is English culture taking a hammering; no one is losing anything & the only sickness in society is racism & its divisive consequences. Try applying some of that anthropological methodology to your understanding of English society; you've only lived here eleven years for Christ's sake - I've lived here all my life and every day I'm finding out something new.

To conclude, having a philosophy of life is all very well, but when that philosophy is so obviously at odds with every aspect of reality it purports to deal with, then why bother with it at all? What gives you the impression that anyone else is bothered? Do I detect a subversive subtext? A man with a mission? Or just a misanthropic malcontent who likes to piss people off to get a reaction? I find it odd that there's none of this in your public persona, WAV - Aussie Dave, the affable cove with his carefully mannered taciturn approach to folk clubs and singarounds, who would never dare question that Jewish-Irish-Northumbrian guy for daring to sing a traditional Scottish ballad to an American tune whilst accompanying himself on an antique Hungarian zither.

There, I have been frank & open with you. Please do likewise, WAV - with no quotes from your already published prose & verse.

I'm off out now to Manchester, back in the morning.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM

Sedayne

What gives you the impression that anyone else is bothered?

Quite a few people seem to be very bothered indeed. Don't respond, it only encourages him.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM

"The questioning of immigration and the multi-cultural state is racist by default otherwise it just wouldn't be an issue"

Eh? I'm not aware of any country in the world that doesn't have an immigration policy, i.e. a policy that restricts immigration in one form or another. As an example, the current debate regarding immigrants from Eastern Europe is of great import and is, above all, a socio-economic issue. I would like to think that most of us are aware that this particular wave of immigration has brought us both benefits and problems. Our government is, therefore, questioning immigration levels at the moment. It would be irresponsible of them not to.

We should be getting back to the subject of the thread, or is it that the thread has now exhausted itself and we are just the few last drunks, who just can't bear to go home, left arguing in the pub after closing time?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

With apologies to Fairport Convention, Richard Thompson and Dave Swarbrick:

Walkabout, Walkabout
Walkabout with me
The more we walkabout together love
The lesser we'll agree, we'll agree....


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM

Melodeonboy, some of us would love to keep going, but the originator of the thread is not very good at answering direct questions put to him, even before it detiorated into something else.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

I'm sure it could all be settled over a nice cup of tea.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

WAV once more tries to convince us that his godawful poetry and prose are reliable sources, they're not.

and, "And, lastly, why should the EFDSS be kept out of an argument for an English folk degree? (And please try to respond/argue/debate/"fight" sensibly, without the gutter tactics from now on.) "

First off, don't try and dictate the direction of this thread, you are far from qualified for that, and I'll repeat again, it's only "gutter tactics" when someone disagrees with you

Regarding the EFDSS, as Ruth Archer has said, the EFDSS is an inclusive organisation, you, however are not an inclusive person, as has been proved by your many, many, many ad infinitum, ad nauseum, posts. The EFDSS doesn't need now, nor will it ever need, the likes of you and others like you hanging around its environs.

Leave the EFDSS alone.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

England hasn't really got a national song, you know, just for England; there's plenty for Great Britain.

England marched forward, happily being GB. It's not quite the same with the other countries whose traditions I suspect were helped by not wanting to be British(English).


The rule is: if we've done anything good, it's "another triumph for Great Britain" and if we haven't, it's "England loses again". Have you noticed that?

No.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

:-D irishenglish

One foot in your mouth'
the other close behind
the BNP bows its head
as you go walking by...

sorry.. :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

Jon, that was a very tongue-in-cheek intro by Flanders and Swann to their "A Song of Patriotic Prejudice".

TheSnail, TEA???? Appalling, another instance of Englishmen not practising their own culture, but someone else's....


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:44 PM

Tea, of course, is not an English crop is it? Nicked by the imperialists from India and the other places the British trampled all over.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM

OK, sorry.

Oddly enough (but sort of triggered by this thread), I was looking at the words to that this morning. I didn't know of the intro.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM

Well, I don't think WAV would quite "get" the satire of Song Of Patriotic Prejudice


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

Well, the ritualised drinking of tea is a Turkish thing which spread the world over.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Volgadon said,"Well, the ritualised drinking of tea is a Turkish thing which spread the world over."

Oh dear, does this mean WAV is thrice damned for indulging in tea drinking? :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:03 PM

Dont be ridiculous. Everybody knows that tea is from Yorkshire.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

sSeems to me, cakes and biscuits were also invented in Yorkshire :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:39 PM

But are scones English or Scottish?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

The scone is a British snack of Scottish origin. A small quickbread made of wheat, barley or oatmeal, usually with baking powder as a leavening agent. British scones are often lightly sweetened, but may also be savoury

and:

Fresh from Devon: Mouth Wateringly good

Poor WAV, here's something else he'll have to forgo :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM

Oh dear, I think he's concocting his next thread based on his musings for us.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM

You're really off the subject
With talk of scones and tea,
Have you all forgotten
The English Folk Degree?
Don't Kick a man when he is down
Don't act like vicious prats,
Your words are now just bullying
You sanctimonious twats.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:48 PM

That the best you can do Referee? :-D Oh speaking of sanctimonious, you do seem to be doing a good job yourself :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Opps, sorry to the rest of you, this GUEST, Referee, hasn't the courage of its (gender unknown, therefore it) convictions to take responsibility for its remarks by signing in. :D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:54 PM

And if WAV answered direct questions these threads would be a lot shorter, but instead we get walkaboutsverse number 213 or whatever as an answer.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:04 PM

The problem is, irishenglish, WAV has no answers, except as you say,walkaboutsverse number 213 or whatever, which I'm beginning to suspect is what the above piece of doggerel is. :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

Calm yourself Def Shepard,
Stop acting like a yob,
Don't dispute the referee,
Whisht and haad yor gob.
My gender's unimportant,
What's it got to do
With courage or convictions,
What, by-the-way, are you?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:31 PM

Itn't it priceless :-D

well if you know nothing about taking responsibility for your words or actions far be it from me to enlighten you, if you don't know now, you never will.
and you're right, you aren't important in anyway shape or form. You're Dismissed.

ps. what by the way am I, none of your business


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:46 PM

Awful lot of crap on here.

I don't think anyone objects to degrees in comparative folk music, Welsh folk music Irish folk music or Scottish folk music or sodding penguin folk music.

But what there ought to be is a degree (including performance) in English folk music or it is underrepresented in its own country.

A prophet is not without honour save in his own country.

Go on, tell me that that's racist without checking the source.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM

GUEST,Referee

Have you all forgotten
The English Folk Degree?


No, Referee, I have not. I have known Dr Vic Gammon, the Programme Director for over thirty years. At our club we have booked him, his predecessor Alistair Anderson, most of the tutors and many of their students and graduates not to mention some of their future students. All of them hard working and dedicated people. I consider it an invaluable enterprise. After a couple of glasses of wine, I frequently fantasise about what instruments I would specialise in and what I would choose as my dissertation subject.

That is why I find the ignorant blitherings of WalkAboutsVerse so irritating. The man has proved himself impervious to reason so ridicule is the only choice. Well, ignoring him might be better but sometimes it's hard to resist.

If that makes me vicious and sanctimonious, so be it.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

Awful lot of crap on here.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

I must be selective - I have the rest of my repertoire to get through, etc.; so, Howard: if we know the author of the song/tune it is NOT traditional, and we should give credit anytime we sing/play it.
It may help to consider folk, in England, e.g., being divided into 2 branches - traditional and composed (rather than contemporary for temporal reasons). Given that, the only ways any knew trad. songs will be created (as opposed to oldies being rediscovered) is through a lie or suchlike - perhaps someone could create a song, sing it at a folk club, and claim to have forgotten where and who they picked it up from; others like it, learn it, and it becomes a trad. song. Ewan MacColl's fine folk songs, though, will NEVER be traditional songs - due to rights, technology, etc., it will not be forgotten that he composed them; they, rather, belong to the composed branch of English folk songs. (And neither will they ever be called gobbledegook.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

On thinking about it, I've come to realise that a degree in any national music really isn't that important. I'm self taught as far as actually playing the instruments (fiddle [electric & acoustic] and mandolin [electric & acoustic]) the songs and tunes come from the usual suspects and sources The degree isn't the issue at all, it's a blinder as my grandfather used to say. Nothing is going to happen to the music (the real point) if there is or is not any degree programmes.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

I have quoted from Reg Hall, and Martin Carthy in my postings to WAV REFEREE, along with other salient points, which he chooses to ignore. He has also blown off comments from both Chris Parkinson and Eliza Carthy. Those four people combined have more intimate knowledge of English music than WAV has on his toenail, yet he sticks to his tired prose as an answer for everything. No, I haven't forgotten Referee what this thread was about. But when I start a thread, you better believe that I will follow it, agree with people, politely disagree with people, argue, counterargue, apologize, joke, laugh....whatever the case may be. WAV does not, he just repeats. What Snail said for me as well.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

That whole last post by WAV is a cut and paste if ever I saw it, irishenglish. As Ruth Archer stated, John Kirkpatrick does more for folk music just by getting out of bed, than WAV could ever hope to achieve in his lifetime (hope Ruth doesn't sue me, I used that quote in a presentation I made, earlier today :-D)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

Don't resort to ridicule
Or shout and shake your fist.
Don't get out of kilter
Or your knickers in a twist.
Watch the old blood pressure,
Don't rise to all the prattle,
For if you lose your temper
You're sure to lose the battle.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

You made a presentation about WAV, Def Shepard?!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

Ya know Guest Referee, I don't let my blood pressure rise over such nonsense, I simply type in what I feel is needed in reply to the postings, and leave it at that, simply put, you/WAV simply aren't worth very much effort at all, you whoever seem to put too much effort into appearing to be shall we say, self-righteous. *Yawn*


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

My comment to that Referee is, none of the above applies to me. Who's responsible for thread drift now though?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

GUEST,Referee

Don't resort to ridicule

So what should I do? Follow your example and resort to personal abuse?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

At least Sue agrees with me on trad., at least.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:03 PM

Ruth said "You made a presentation about WAV, Def Shepard?! " :-D

Good God No!, but in passing I did mention that there are people who will use the English Trad, for their own ends, and finished with, and I quote, " a friend of mine recently remarked that John Kirkpatrick does more for folk, just by getting out of bed, than some could ever hope to do, in their entire life times."


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

One hesitates to stick a toe back in this pool but what the hell. It's the naivety of believing 'English' is an unproblematic term without a whole parade of signifiers and connotations marching on behind. For some it may be summoned by bells, cream teas and the lowing herd but if you're jewish, black, catholic, asian or an array of other legally, morally and historically other english categories, all of whom are trying to move beyond mild slights through to mass genocide it's a bugger to be hinted at that you're not the right sort. Even the right sort to know what a traditional tune is.

I'm not daft enough to think 'folk' don't hold these views and suspicion isn't evidence but FFS, give it a bone WAV.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

WAV said, hopefully, "At least Sue agrees with me on trad., at least."

I await Sue's reply to this one.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

It is often said that America is a nation of immigrants. The original inhabitants, many believe, came across a land or ice bridge where the Bering Strait is now and spread south over the land. During the (European) age of exploration, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the English, and others came to the two American continents, exploited, explored, encroached, settle, and either murdered the previous peoples or drove them onto reservations. Immigration continued with the influx of the French, Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans, Asians. It goes on today, notably with Mexicans coming to the United States to take menial jobs that U. S. citizens, even unemployed citizens, consider too demeaning to take—much to the upset of some who worry about "American culture" (whatever the hell that is!). You get the idea.

The same thing happened in the British Isles. There were the peoples who built such monuments as Stonehenge and other stone circles, and such places of archeological interest as Skara Brae on Orkney. I have yet to hear anything definitive about who they were, where they came from, and how they got there (probably across a land or ice bridge during the last Ice Age). Then came the Celts. Then the Angles. And the Saxons. And the Norsemen, and a bit later, the Normans.

Now come the Pakistanis. The Africans. The Asians. The Middle Easterners. . . .

So, what's new?

By the way, WAV—aka David Franks. The name "Franks." Seems to imply French ancestry. Whence cometh your forebears?

Just curious.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:21 PM

WAV, several of MacColl's songs have famously been collected from the tradition, having undergone a degree of change which qualifies them to be considered as "folk music" under the 1954 definition.

All songs and tunes were composed by someone. To fall back on one of your earlier examples, "Barbara Allen" has been collected in many variants from around the British Isles and beyond. Suppose a researcher were to come across manuscript of the original version, with the name of the composer. Would it cease to be a "folk song"? Not under the 1954 definition.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:25 PM

Yes, well the Angles and the Saxons came in and booted the original Britons into what's now Wales, Cornwall and Britanny, I should resent your sort for doing that WAV (I am of Welsh descent on both sides of my family), but you know what, that's what made England what it is, along with the other immigrants, the Norman's etc, and of recent years, West Indians, Indians, Pakistanis, the neighbourhood I grew up in is now a largely black one, but it's added life and colour to Handsworth, it's something that is celebrated by all concerned, no matter their colour or racial background, every year,and THATS England too...enough of your pseudo-nationalistic blather.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:30 PM

I should also say I'm feeling really sorry for the course in the thread title that seems to be instilling academic rigour and turning out excellent performers (and the mealy mouthed can take the last term and stick it up their fundament) and is being chewed over to the tune of 380+ posts on a web site by people few of whom have a formal qualification in the subject they're discussing.

When I begin to feel sympathy for WAV - which I do at times - I remember you started this intentionally, knowing what the fallout would be or blinding yourself to the consequences. As I said above, if you can't or won't engage in the debate beyond a 'wouldn't it be nice if...' level or cutting and pasting rhetorical non sequiters, don't start the post in the first place.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:31 PM

Richard Bridge: "But what there ought to be is a degree (including performance) in English folk music"

But there is such a degree - the Newcastle course allows students to focus on English folk music if they wish, and many choose to do so. Or do you mean it has to be named "BA in English Folk Music"?

If were going to study for a degree in folk, I would prefer to do a course which puts my chosen area of interest into context and gives me an opportunity to explore other areas I might not have previously considered - to get an education, in other words.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:41 PM

To glueman: it is hardly surprising that few of us have academic qualifications in the subject when the only course has been running for only a few years. However many of us have considerable experience in the field and are not coming from a position of complete ignorance. And most of us have been entirely supportive of the Newcastle course.

But it would be nice if WAV would engage in debate. He seems to think that what he is saying is so obvious that if he goes on repeating it long enough we will understand him. Well, after many repetitions, we still don't understand, so WAV, please put forward some coherent arguments to support your point of view. And, in the words of a famous Englishman, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken"


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:49 PM

I was thinking about related courses like the folklore one at Sheffield and others when I wrote Howard but I agree with your point.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:01 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, at 67 plays on the myspace site so far today (as of just now when I looked in myself), I respectfully submit that WAV has had the last laugh here. And that IS kinda funny, I have to admit...

Peace,
Gene.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:28 PM

No Gene, after his obfuscation on a thread, and on several threads he has originated, I don't find it funny, IMO.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:46 AM

Howard Jones - yes, that is precisely the point. There are degrees specifically in the folk music of places other than England (regardless of the difficulty in deciding exactly where and how such music orginated or evolved) but there is not one in English folk music (whether or not including comparative elements). English folk music ought to be equally represented (and thereby supported and encouraged).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:18 AM

Thanks, Richard, for returning us to the (ostensible) topic of this thread. But I think everything that needed to be said was said on day one (30th May!)

Some of us think it can't be done and probably shouldn't be.

Ruth Allan:

Many of these students eagerly took away the photocopies I brought of manuscript fiddle tunebooks from Cumbria, so I guess they'll be playing some of them. But actually many of those tunes are versions of Irish and Scottish tunes - or are the Irish and Scottish tunes variants of English versions? Who knows? They were all mixed up in the 18th and 19th centuries, so they've no racial purity ... much as WAV might want such a thing.

What a nonsense to imagine that the English, Irish and Scottish traditions are discrete entities! It's never historically been so, so why should it be now?


Some of us think perhaps it can and should be done, but can't see the point of discussing it here.

Graham (Grab):

"Do the participants of the degree wish it was a specifically English folk degree? That's the real question. Whatever your ideology regarding folk music, you're not taking the course and they are."

Volgadon (second comment on this thread!)

"A degree in Eng Trad would be nice, but I don't think any mudcatters really have pull with the UCAS.
Do you have any practical suggestions?"

And Volgadon again:

"What I mean is, why have a thread about it? Not one person here can do more than say 'yes, it's a good idea'."


Any other questions?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:39 AM

To Don - all my known forebears were born in England; yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began; and you may like to read my poem #76 LAND RIGHTS.
To Howard: that, very unlikely, hypothetical manuscript would have on it a composed folk song - NOT a traditional folk song. With Ewan MacColl, I think you are referring to the radio ballads, where he put together others stories into lyrics - these are composed folk songs.
NEW!: It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:01 AM

Oh, blimey, he's back. And he's *still* talking about immigration - in a thread on a totally different topic, that he started himself. Funny, that.

Is it just me or are WAV threads starting to look alike?

WAV: "We need more *English* material/teaching/performers/cheese/etc and less of all that foreign rubbish!"
Mudcatter 1: "No, we don't."
Catter 2: "No, we don't."
C3: "No, we don't."
C4: "I'm with the other three."
WAV: "Oh yes we do!"
C1: "Oh no we don't."
C2: "Oh no we don't."
C3: "Oh no we don't."
C4: "Nope."
WAV: "Oh yes we do!"
C4: "No, we really don't."
WAV: "Yes we do."
C4: "No we don't."
WAV: "Yes we do."
C4: "No we don't."
WAV: "Yes we do."
C4: "No we don't."
WAV: "And what about immigration, eh? How come nobody ever questions immigration, that's what I'd like to know!"
C4: "No we... what?"


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:05 AM

Phil - I think you've muddled me and Ruth Archer up in your quote. However, I take that as a compliment.
WAV - what the f**k are you on about now?
Everyone - stop feeding him ... he's getting our of control here!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:06 AM

Wav, the definition of "folk song" is the 1954 definition.

Not all "folk song" is "trad" or "Anon" (eg "Fiddler's Green" clearly adopted into the community with alterations - likewise "Shoals of Herring" and probably "The Gay Fusilier", to exemplify 3 different composers/authors). Not all contemporary acoustic, even of folk-style, is "folk".


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:11 AM

"It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end."

WAV, who are these powers-that-be? I've taught at an English university, and I can tell you what the priorities are: recruitment. Bums on seats. As Sue has said, the direction of the degree is likely to have been dictated by the course title that would attract the greatest number of students.

"yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began;"

So all these European cultures blending was okay (never mind the historical persecution of Catholics, French, Jews etc - let's just pretend had always been a lovely big harmonious melting pot); it was only when black and Asian people started coming over that immigration became "bad". Why is that, WAV?

You haven't told me if you agree or disagree with these statements:

Although it is impractical, in a perfect world you would really like it if all immigrants currently living in England were to return to their country of origin.

You dislike immigration to England because it pollutes/dilutes English culture.

You like other cultures, so long as they stay in their own countries.

You want English people to practise English culture, and would not like people who come from other places pracising that culture - they should stick to their own traditions.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:17 AM

To Richard: "anon." appears in anthologies to describe poems of unknown author; whereas, in folk circles, "trad." is used. Yes - not all "'folk song' is 'trad'", as a there are composed folk songs.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:23 AM

Sorry - in this case, we really should use some extra syllables (apart from Ref., we are not composing metre-and-rhyme poems here, after all): "traditional" and "known-composer" are out two key branches of folk music.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:25 AM

PLEASE let's not get into another thread on definitions of folk music. PLEASE


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM

... and 400. Back to work now ...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM

'To Richard: "anon." appears in anthologies to describe poems of unknown author; whereas, in folk circles, "trad." is used.'


Eep - WAV is lecturing on the conventions of folk music! I knew he was here to educate us all. Look out, Newcastle...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:39 AM

...and, while we are at it, the "known composer" branch of folk music may, then, be divided into "contemporary known-composer folk music" and "deceased known-composer folk music"...and, again, sorry about all the syllables but, here, they are unavoidable. Finally, the "deceased known-composer folk music" branch, may need to be further divided into (C) expired/not expired.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:47 AM

I said "finally" but, within the "contemporary known-composer folk music" branch, there are, of course, depending on who the performer is, self-penned songs/tunes and covers.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 AM

Been avoiding this torturous thread - though hats off to Sue, Ruth, Phil, Sedayne, Howard, Glue etc for some fair points well made.

Richard's point about the need for a specifically English folk degree brings me back here though.

Look.

We have this great course that's churning out some top class, well informed, largely (but not entirely) English performers tutored by some of the great names in English folk performance and academia. In what way is that not to be celebrated and applauded? In what way does it not give Richard (and the wavy one, for that matter) exactly what he says he wants? Surely you're not getting yourself into a twisty underpants situation merely because the word 'English' isn't on the course title?

Is our folk degree somehow not good enough for you? When you're such a staunch defender of the good enough for folk corner?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM

Ah, I'm slowly getting the idea Phil. WAV submits a proposal that's unprovable and politically contentious. Almost everyone reassures him that's the case. He only returns to the matter every umpteenth post and then through extracts drawn from an equally unresolved but previously self-published set of contentions as though that supports his day dream.
The few voices who dessent are ones who see the opportunity to use the thread for an expurgation of 1954 as though repeating the date and its significance lends it an authority beyond the members who originally proposed it, thus sealing it as a shibboleth that underwrites their preferred mode of public performance.

Meanwhile WAV tracks through a standard agenda which has little or nothing to do with the original question but has vague allusions to a sunlit upland where culture was only diluted by tribal movement in canoes by people from the paler parts of europe bringing new pottery styles and maybe the odd seed drill. While the rest of the board grow confused and agitated at his inability to reply to a straight question he redoubles his effort by asking the same question in a different way, on a separate thread.

Fascinating sociologically but almost nothing to do with folk (by any definition) and utterly, utterly mad.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

To Ewan.: if you don't believe my earlier post that 6 of 14 final recitalists this year were Scots (performing mostly Scottish music, which is good), and that the remainder did not perform anywhere near enough E. trad material (which is not good), then ask The Sage for a copy of their free Events Diary. There IS a problem, that goes beyond nomenclature, and that, Glueman, has a lot "to do with folk".


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:37 AM

Answer the previous questions WAV, any of them, and I'll listen. You've gone into the distraction phase of the thread now that's dependent on other poster's goodwill not to call you again on the big issues.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM

I can't be really bothered to read all the stuff on this thread to make sure that this has not been mentioned but show me where it says that it is a degree in English Traditional Music. It is a degree in performance.

They cover things like agents, self-employment and setting up as singer/performer etc. as well as music.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM

To WAV: two straight questions. Firstly, you say you want immigration to be limited; you also say that you're not a racist, as "we are dealing with culture here NOT race". How do you propose to limit immigration on cultural and NOT racial grounds? What difference would there be in the identities of the people who were turned away?

Secondly, you say you don't want any immigrants who are already here to leave. How is this consistent with wanting a mono-cultural England?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began

So there we have it, in your own words, WAV - fine for England to be a blend of Caucasians cultures & peoples but 50 years ago (the end of your golden age of England) the African-Caribbeans and Asians began to arrive and bang went the gleaming white neighbourhood. How can you write that and yet have the neck to maintain you're not a racist?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

Folkiedave - I think you may be looking at something else. It's a BMus in Folk and Traditional Music, run by such jumped-up charlatans and traitors to their raceculture as Vic Gammon, Alistair Anderson and Kathryn Tickell.

(I mean, really - talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:03 AM

"If you don't believe my earlier post that 6 of 14 final recitalists this year were Scots (performing mostly Scottish music, which is good), and that the remainder did not perform anywhere near enough E. trad material (which is not good), then ask The Sage for a copy of their free Events Diary."

And exactly why is this a problem?

Why are you so hung up on imposing artificial national boundaries on traditional music? Do you not get the idea that someone from Cumbria and someone from Dumfries, for example, are divided only by an invisible line, and are potentially a lot closer, culturally, than someone from Kent and someone from Durham?

In what way is Newcastle student concentrating on traditional Scottish music stopping any of their fellow students concentrating on, say, the music of Devon? Or Lancashire? Anyway, chances are there'll be a bit of crossover anyway and they'll hopefully learn from each other. Broadening the mind: generally understood to be a good thing.

Me, I like our colourful, diverse, vibrant actually-existing England, warts and all. Don't think I'd fancy your grim, retrogressive monoculture. Sounds a bit too much like the suburbs for my liking (though as someone who grew up in Australia you might find that comfortingly familiar!). Luckily, the only concievable way we'd get what you seem to be advocating is (like it or not, WAV) if a BNP government was elected. Now, unless the British people are struck down with a collective outbreak of mass idiocy, that prospect is highly unlikely.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM

I made a statement/summary of what has happened in response to Don - I did not make any judgement on it, Sedayne (who should learn not to put words in peoples mouths).
To Phil: I think the UN should take control of immigration and help genuine assylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country; and you forget about assimilation, which can and has occurred.
I'm not a member of the BNP or any other political party, Ewan. - I believe in the English nation and the United Nations; via such forums, I have, however, been contacted by the English Democrats and their "positive nationalism", which I agree with (also an offer to pass on my poems was made, and, last time I looked, Show of Hands were on their website).
Now, having dealt, again, with the distractions that I am accused of, any opinions here on my on-thread suggestion, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:36 AM

If you don't believe my earlier post that 6 of 14 final recitalists this year were Scots (performing mostly Scottish music, which is good), and that the remainder did not perform anywhere near enough E. trad material (which is not good), then ask The Sage for a copy of their free Events Diary

Is this, perchance, an example of society suffering as England loses its own good culture? In which case, last one out please turn off the lights!

Interesting to note that there are more examples of WAVs own good English culture now than ever there were back in the halcyon days of the 1950s. More folk singers, more of them singing E-trads both unaccompanied and accompanied, more instrumentalists, more sessions, more Morris Dancers - in fact, the folk joint is positively jumping & long may it remain so!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:07 AM

English Democrats

Another fringe party who thankfully don't stand a cat in hell's chance of amounting to a hill of beans.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:25 AM

Ewan, it is because that degree is not specifically English, whereas there are other courses that are specific to other traditions, so it necessarily follows that English is under-represented.

Er - WAV, sorry to disagree. Folk is folk, not folk is not folk. Apply the 1954 definition.   Trad is trad, not trad is not trad. Anon is anon whenever it was written. There are provisions in the CDPA dealing with anonymous and psuedonymous works that may still be in copyright.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:01 AM

Sedayne (who should learn not to put words in peoples mouths)

My apologies, WAV, but this is pretty serious stuff that needs clarifying given your persistence with ideas that would be entirely nonsensical were you not a racist. A statement such as England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began has immediate resonances with your belief that 1950 marked the end of a golden age of English culture. I'm not a great believer in coincidence, so in looking for a correlation we might be tempted to draw a conclusion based as much on what you're obviously not saying, but which is implicit in every word you do say.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

This thread is a Shambles.
'Nuff said.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

But, Sedayne, as studious as you are, you won't find, on any forum, where I have criticised any particular culture or race (on the contrary, I have enjoyed travelling through about 40 countries and doing a major in anthropology), so, because you don't like immigration being questioned, you, and others here, have resorted to putting words in my mouth. We live in a democracy, Sedayne, and you should accept that folks in it are allowed to question immigration - which, hopefully for one last time, is NOT the same as racism.
And, rather than another flood of B- and R-words, how about another opinion on what I said, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM

as studious as you are

Touché! I am an uneducated lout with few formal qualifications and justly proud of it. I once made it to Durham University (1993) as a mature student on the back of an Access Course but was forced to withdraw after the first term owing to the onset of ME / Post-viral Fatigue Syndrome following a serious bout of flu that hit me after my vasectomy (I quote: "It might be a little tender for a few days."). I'm still plagued by it yet, ME that is, but it's nowt compared to my recent susceptibility to episodes of Vasovagal Syncope which is an absolute bastard...

Anyhoo - whilst it is true that you've never criticised any particular culture or race, you nevertheless persist with a mono-cultural idealism in a multicultural context. This, I would have thought, was evidence enough of at least certain discomfort on your part with the multi-cultural realities of England in 2008. Further, your criteria as to what actually constitutes our own good English culture can be proven to be entirely dependant on cultural developments that have occurred within the last fifty years, in terms of revivals of things that never were leading to the present flowering of English folk song, music and dance which is unprecedented in the whole of English history. It's all happening now, WAV - not back then. One would have thought you'd be pleased.

I can't help but love your idea of an conspiracy to keep the UK together via a subverting of the Folk Degree course, however. Who do you think might be behind this? I reckon it could be the Labour Party, realising that if ever there was such a thing as Scottish Devolution we'd never see another Labour Government in England again... In which case, as I said elsewhere, I'm gonna grab me a few tubes of Fosters and me digeridoo, dangle some corks from my hat and emigrate to the Northern Territories whistling Waltzing Matilda...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM

errrmmm.. has anyone else of 'pure' English descent
actually dared raise the point yet
that a plain diet of ENGLISH folk music
can be extremely monotone and boring
to all but a few
obsessive performers and stout hearted cleverclogs minority audiences ?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM

WAV,how do you question immigration?should we do away with immigration laws altogther?do you want tougher immigration laws? do you want better working conditions for immigrants?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:28 AM

*sigh*

I responded to your bloody question this morning, WAV, as well as re-stating a very simple question of my own:

"It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end."

WAV, who are these powers-that-be? I've taught at an English university, and I can tell you what the priorities are: recruitment. Bums on seats. As Sue has said, the direction of the degree is likely to have been dictated by the course title that would attract the greatest number of students.

"yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began;"

So all these European cultures blending was okay (never mind the historical persecution of Catholics, French, Jews etc - let's just pretend England had always been a lovely big harmonious melting pot); it was only when black and Asian people started coming over that immigration became "bad". Why is that, WAV?

You haven't told me if you agree or disagree with these statements:

Although it is impractical, in a perfect world you would really like it if all immigrants currently living in England were to return to their country of origin.

You dislike immigration to England because it pollutes/dilutes English culture.

You like other cultures, so long as they stay in their own countries.

You want English people to practise English culture, and would not like people who come from other places pracising that culture - they should stick to their own traditions.


Go on, WAV. No one is putting words in your mouth. TELL US IF YOU AGREE WITH THESE STATEMENTS OR NOT.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:32 AM

Ah WAV, good to see the same cut and paste job from your "website" with the same spelling and grammatical errors again and again. Good to see your continued obfuscation as well-did you ever work for Karl Rove by any chance?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:39 AM

We can, of course, Sedayne, be studious without doing a course of formal study. And your last post was, I think, fair enough, although, as I said earlier, I hope you settle on a VISIT to Aus., even if England bemomes an independent republic.
To 21.: your post, however, is not fair enough, and studious Sedayne may back me up on this one - there IS plenty of variety with the English tradition (including clever Northumbrian and Lancashire clog-dancing).
To CB: please see above - the UN taking control of it, etc.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:51 AM

WAV, your racism seems mild enough, a watered down version of wogs begin at Calais, you don't really CARE about what happens outside of England, just as long as there isn't multiculturalism IN England. I've asked, do you like the idea of ENGLAND being multicultural, you've studiously avoided an answer, so I'll take that as a 'no, I don't.' If that's not true and I put words in your mouth, please answer with a straightforward 'I do like the idea, etc.'
Comments such as. "yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began; and you may like to read my poem #76 LAND RIGHTS." Makes it seem like you object to NON-EUROPEAN mass immigration to England. Reveals a studious ignorance of history and culture. Just because someone comes from the neighbouring continent, is of similar stock and physiology, does'nt mean that the culture is compatible. I'll repeat one of my favorite examples. Just ask any Sarf-Lunoners from 1600-1700 what they thought of Hugeonot textile-makers. I'm not even going to mention the Irish. Then there is the influx of French and Germans throught the centuries, in fact, I'll think you'll find that it was the Europeans who changed English culture far more than anyone from the West Indies or Indian subcontinent. Oh yes, the influx of Jews and others from Eastern Europe from the mid of the 19th onwards is an interesting study. All European, but vastly different to anyone else!
There had also been a steady flow of immigrants from the East and the Indies during the 19th century, so nothing new.

WAV, have you never been young? Have you never wanted to do something because you enjoy it? Let me know which approach you think is more effective.
A) The instructor walks into the room. "For the next four years you are going to have to learn and sing ballads about gay young maids and jolly sailors in a nasaly drone with no harmonising, because that is how a Norfolk fisherman was recorded and that was how things were done in the ENGLISH tradition. You may NOT sing any songs or play any tunes with a possible non-English origin."
B) The instructor walks into the room, gives an overview of traditional music in the UK. "This was how the music interacted with other regions, these are some songs which come from the textile factories, Northumbrian pipers tended to employ these techniques and ornaments, in contrast to the Scottish smallpipe tradition, the difference between strathspeys and reels is thus, etc.
Now let's listen to Sam Larner and then Ms Redpath."
If someone is grabbed by Sam Larner's singing, especially after studying the background, without being FORCED to, surely chances are that the person will be hooked.
People are more likely to love and appreciate their own culture when given freedom to do so. Attitudes like you HAVE to enjoy this, it's English, don't work terribly well. Look up the word resentment. Study a psychology book.

"It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end."

Anyway, as for your trad means unknown author argument, you are comparing apples (poetry anthologies) and oranges (folk MUSIC). Songs can be anon., trad has a slightly different meaning, something found within a certain tradition. Let's take the well-known Jewish piyut, "Dror Yikra". The author, Dunash bin Lavrat, has been known since the day he compose it during the 900s, yet it is called a tradtional song. Why? This liturgical Sabbath song has been found in early every Jewish community and is growing in popularity. Part of a tradition.

You threw a tantrum about how your poem was formatterd, but you didnt adress the point I made about morris dancing (or even tea), or my question, what IS English culture.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:56 AM

Ooh, another question, WAV. Say that the UN does take control of immigration and decide that it is perfectly fine the way it is, in fact, why not INCREASE it. What would you say then?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM

and studious Sedayne may back me up on this one - there IS plenty of variety with the English tradition (including clever Northumbrian and Lancashire clog-dancing)

Indeed I will certainly back you up on that, WAV - as I'm sure most here would, but they'd also tell you (as they have been doing) there's nothing particularly, peculiarly or purely, English about any of it other than the fact of it taking place in England. Also, and perhaps more significantly in this context, this English Tradition, thriving & fascinating as it may be, does not amount to a single per-cent* of English Cultural activity as a whole, whatever the ethnicity. I have no figures to back me up on this, of course, and would hope in actuality it's significantly higher - all I do know is (if I may quote myself) that one can go for a lot of years in the real world without meeting another folkie, so it could be significantly lower. In any case, I don't think we're in any danger of losing it, not with the calibre of young singers & musicians coming up at the moment, and not just in Newcastle either.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

folks in it are allowed to question immigration - which, hopefully for one last time, is NOT the same as racism.

WAV, I think you might get on better with this debating lark if you actually read some words written by other people. As I've said before, questioning immigration is not necessarily racist; it all depends on what grounds you're questioning it. To repeat my first question to you (which you haven't answered):

you say you want immigration to be limited; you also say that you're not a racist, as "we are dealing with culture here NOT race". How do you propose to limit immigration on cultural and NOT racial grounds? What difference would there be in the identities of the people who were turned away?

Here was your answer: I think the UN should take control of immigration and help genuine assylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country

Look, never mind asylum seekers, never mind the UN. There's a planeload of people in the arrivals lounge, not a UK passport between them, and they all want to come and live in England.

A liberal would say, immigration is fine - let them all in.
A xenophobe would say, we don't want any immigration - they're not English, turn them all away.
A racist would say, we want to limit immigration - let in the ones with the right ethnic background and turn the rest away.
A capitalist would say, we want to limit immigration - let in the ones with a marketable skill and turn the rest away.

You say you want to limit immigration, but on 'cultural' and not racial grounds. What do you do? Who do you turn away?

As for my second question:

you say you don't want any immigrants who are already here to leave. How is this consistent with wanting a mono-cultural England?

You said: you forget about assimilation, which can and has occurred.

So newcomers need to assimilate to English culture rather than maintaining their own. That's going to knock the bottom out of the delicatessen and takeaway food sectors, but never mind. What if it doesn't happen? What if people stubbornly persist in going to the mosque and listening to gospel music and cheering for the wrong side at cricket? If too many of the wrong sort of people come here, and they persist in being the wrong sort of people, the implication can only be that some of them should leave.

I'm just asking you to be honest about your beliefs, and about the implications of your beliefs. It doesn't mean you're a Fascist, or anything to the right of Thatcher-era Tory Party (they had a 'voluntary repatriation' policy, incidentally). It just means you've got views which many people here genuinely, sincerely and rationally disagree with very strongly.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM

"you don't really CARE about what happens outside of England" (Volgadon)...that is ridiculous - you may disagree with what I've proposed, but to say I don't care...please spend (half) a day in your life and read my life's work. Also, I did answer, and you went off on one of your rants about how Morris dancing is not English.
To Phil, I disagree with your hypothesis, and refer you, also, to my life's work.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, WAV. PHIL ASKED YOU SPECIFIC QUESTIONS AND SO DID I. JUST ANSWER THEM.

Or are you afraid that if you do, you won't be able to hide your true colours any more?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

Maybe that was harsh, I still suspect that you do feel that way, but what I mean is that you don't really care how the world lives, because it doesn't directly affect you. Answer this simple question, with a yes or no. Do you like the idea of ENGLAND being multicultural?
I said that it (morris) is an example of Englishmen practising someone else's culture. It BECAME English, which you refuse to accept can happen with anything nowadays.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

WAV, by this point everyone involved in these threads of yours have read your life's work-it's the only way you know how to answer a question put to you. Your continued failure to answer direct questions is verification that you have no qualification to speak on these matters. Why on earth do you insist on driving a wedge into matters that you have limited understanding of? Never mind us on this forum, but you have even brushed aside the words of two professional English folk musicians, Chris Parkinson and Eliza Carthy. For fuck's sake, they have been playing this music their entire lives. Eliza in particular, has been immersed in it since her birth, yet you refuse to heed their words, as well as those of people like Reg Hall, who have studied this music their entire lives. You are a baffling man WAV. No poetry is going to get you out of your stubborness.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

To Phil, I disagree with your hypothesis, and refer you, also, to my life's work

I think that's our answer, ladies and gents. Personally I'd call that a "no comment". It can mean one of two things:

The fella's a racist and scared to admit it.

The fella's not a racist and scared to admit it.

I'm bored with this. Off for a kebab and to listen a bit of bhangra.

Just because I can.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

Firstly, immigration is not the subject of this thread, but, when people have asked, I have made brief attempts to answer; it is a complex issue - there are different kinds, of course, for starters: economic, medical (someone may be far healthier in the climate of another country), falling in love on holiday, genuine assylum seeking...the UN should take control, in my opinion.
To Volgadon: if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful. (Then Sedayne, gets angry at the slightest hint of the fact that there has been acts of terrorism recently).
To IE: I don't like you swearing; Eliza is good at her own culture, she is good at other cultures, and she is good at fusing them - I wish she'd just stick to the former (and she'll probably join Sedayne, any second.)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:06 PM

I think the assertion that WAV is being racist is really an attempt by the PC's to dodge their own positional problem. They don't seem to have any reason for there NOT being a degree in English Folk Music (which might include discussing the definition of it and the sources of the music) which points only to the idea that they somehow think that English folk music is less worthy than other nations' folk music which do have degrees about them.

I don't think he has suggested that only the English should study English music (has he?). What he has said is that there hould be equal opportunity or those who wish to study folk music to study English folk music as any other folk music - which at present there is not because even at Newcastle the options of English music are only part-course options.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:10 PM

"please spend (half) a day in your life and read my life's work."

ok, just did.

errrrmmm.. well.. checked your "Myspace" link.

I did at least manage to listen to a recorder intro and first verse..

hmmmm..!!???

Sorry, but as much as I can appreciate the concept
of 'outsider' music and art.....

I must be truthfull.

If I ever seriously consider the prospect of studying Folk music
at any higher college.
Judging by how you choose to represent yourself and ideas
in public media.
I'd now be very concerned about signing up for a 3 or 4 year course
if I knew in advance someone like you
were employed as one of the principal lecturers.

Sorry for being so harsh, but there you go.....


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM

WAV, you don't like me swearing, but it's not banned on Mudcat. It is asylum, not assylum. Your comment about Eliza is proof that despite it all, your personal wish would be that no English musician should play other material, ever.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM

"To Volgadon: if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful."
So, you DON'T want a multicultural England. Why couldn't you just come right out and say so? I'd respect your opinions a lot more if you were honest and open.
What happens if the UN says let's INCREASE immigration to England?
Anyway, who wants a remote organization to take control of immigration. Things will get worse, as the world is too VAST for one organization to deal with. Immigration will end up being decided on even more of an arbitrary basis.

Richard Bridge, there is equal opportunity. If you want to take the modules, take them. Maybe out of 500 students you will only get five who specialise in English music, but they will be dedicated enthusiasts. I'd rather have those five than 500 resentful students who now loathe the sight and sound of English music because they were force-fed it. Hopefuly more universities across the country will open up programs like the Newcastle one.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

Then Sedayne, gets angry at the slightest hint of the fact that there has been acts of terrorism recently

Could you please clarify this statement, WAV? Otherwise - terrorism isn't an issue of ethnicity or immigration, surely? We're dealing with human individuals here, criminals for sure, but not racial stereotypes however the media choose to present it.

As for assimilation; this will happen to a greater or lesser extent over however many hundreds of years, or even generations, but it is not the inevitable outcome of a multi-cultural / racial society, nor yet even desirous. Who is assimilated by whom? Personally, I dig the diversity.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM

I think that's our answer, ladies and gents.

And a very fine answer it is too. An answer for all occasions. For example, did you know that Bert Lloyd wrote "Where did you sleep last night"? Moreover, Woody Guthrie was Welsh, Martin Carthy is known to his friends as 'Trevor' and Davy Graham didn't actually play on Folk roots, new routes. May I also point out that roses are beige, violets are green and not wanting a black family to move in next door is in no way racist.

And if you want to challenge any of those statements, well, phooey to you. I disagree with your hypothesis, and refer you, also, to my life's work.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

Wav,
Ruth answered your question on why the degree course appears to lack English content. Perhaps she did it in too many words for you?

BUMS ON SEATS. ECONOMICS. If there were fifty sixth formers all wanting to do an English Folk Music degree Vic et al would have very little choice in the matter. He and his staff are well qualified to run such a course. However if that is not the case and there are a number of willing students from a few miles further north who are they to turn them down.


This apart I know plenty of graduates of this course who are performing very well English Folk Song currently on the folk scene!!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM

I may be wrong but I don't think you can do the entire Newcastle course just in English music. I don't think you can assemble that many modules in it.

And in any event, if 500 students signed up for a course in English folk music, why would they resent getting it?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:48 PM

WAV said," To Volgadon: if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful"

Here's the proof if anymore proof were neded, that WAV is racist, and you know what, WAV if you don't like me saying that, do something about it. It'll make no difference, you are what your are and all your attempts at silencing people means nothing.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

There we go again - I give a frank answer, then get words put in my mouth; and false defamatory language (please note Moderator) again from Def Shepard; I have questioned immigration which is NOT racism; I love the world being multicultural, as should be clear if you bother to read my life's work.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

You know what you are,and you are an absolutely dreadful poet, I'm not the least interested in your so called 'lifes work', My aim is to end the racist and xenophobic behaviour that exists in Britan and always has been, it's part of my job, part of what I do for a living. I'll also continue to fight for a fully multicultural Britain. Get used to it.

And Richard Bridge, your English Folk Degree? The Newcastle degree programme covers this area already. Are you one of those bureaucrats who have this urge to create make work projects? You know, the ones that really annoy the British tax-payers? Sounds like it to me.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

"if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful"

WAV, this statement is not "questioning immigration". You are saying that if England were less multicultural, it would be better. That is racist. Be honest with yourself (and us).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:20 PM

WAV, you've avoided directly answering my questions. You side-step. Refute what I said, if it isn't true.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

I have questioned immigration which is NOT racism

You have questioned immigration on what appear to be racist grounds, and then repeatedly - nay, doggedly - refused to do anything to dispel that appearance.

But frankly, after your contemptuous treatment of my last question (that's half an hour of my life I won't get back), I don't feel any need to treat your comments with any more consideration. You're a racist, David; your comments here have made that abundantly clear to most of us, if not, yet, to yourself. I'm not going to engage with you any further.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Ditto.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM

You fancy yourself way too much, WAV, your 'life's work' isn't worth half a minute of one's time, let alone half a day, or half an hour.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM

Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that; if you check everything I have published, you will NOT find any evidence of me criticising any particular culture or race (I am, rather, well travelled and studied in humanities/anthropolgy); we are back to a small group of people, who don't like immigration being questioned (for whatever reason), resorting to desperate false defamatory cowardly tactics. In a democracy, we ARE allowed to question immigration.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

In a democracy you are also allowed to be racist, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to stand by and let it go unquestioned, and I believe we've seen this particular post before. They're only cowardly tactics if you don't agree with WAV. That small group of people, is one hell of alot bigger that you think, dearie, so get used to it. Multiculture is the answer to a vibrant, exciting community.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM

"Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that;"

no, this is YOUR definition of racism. And a rather infantile one it is, too. You have said that you think England would be better if it were less multicultural, and THIS is the reason you oppose immigration.

Racist, racist, racist.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

Now sue both Ruth Archer and myself, WAV, we've both called you what you are, racist.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,ESAM
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:59 PM

Richard "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells" Bridge has a problem, it appears, with PCs.

That's one sure way to get your collar fingered.

I never knew before that Mudcat was such a hotbed of anti-racist coppers.

RB IS Jeremy Clarkson and I claim my five pounds!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Student
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

Your words are falling on Def (Shepards') ears WAV.
The world isn't ready for your take on the order of things.
Your detractors aren't really showing themselves up in very good light either.

This thread should be entitled "English Folk D(is)egree"

Where's the ref?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:06 PM

Well, I say either do or shut up. Some folk (pun intended) are quite content to sit on the side lines and do absolutely nothing, it's been my experience that that sort generally don't have anything to offer, to begin with, so they are best ignored.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM

Only one other person has bothered to give an opinion on this (from above): "any opinions here on my on-thread suggestion, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?"..any thoughts, Student?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM

Racism is a slippery word, it can mean different things to different people and all too often it is used as a substitute for rational argument. But that's not to say it isn't real.

It appears to me that WAV is perfectly happy that other cultures exist, he is respectful of them, he just doesn't want them here. He doesn't think that's racist. Others do. Make up your own minds.

There are plenty of threats to "good English folk culture", but most of them come from the apathy and even hostility of the English themselves (for example see this letter from yesterdays Times), not from immigrants, whether from other parts of the British Isles or from further afield.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

WAV said, rather desperately, ", that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England."

and these mysterious powers that be are?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

WAV, here's a question YOU haven't answered. Who are those powers that be. Reminds me of one I asked you. Just what is English culture?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

are you going to respond to the one response you got, WAV (with which several other people have concurred)? Or are you going to ignore it because it's not the answer you wanted?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

Well, WAV, I'm giving you the chance to respond to my question. Who are these mysterious powers that be?

I am also of a mind, currently, to take this whole use the English Trad. by certain groups and individuals for their own dubious ends, to a different level. It's called blogging, WAV, you might be familiar with it.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

I just read that on Morris, thanks, Howard...in contrast, here's what I placed on my site just after the London Olympics bid was won -

SOME ENGLISH DANCES

English Country Dance, Clog Dance (Lancashire/Cheshire, Durham/Northumberland), Step Dance, Morris Dance (Cotsworld, Molly, Border, N.W. Clog Morris), Yorkshire Longsword, N.E. Rapper,
Maypole Dancing, Helston Furry Dance (Cornwall), Great Wishford Grovely-Day Dance (Wiltshire), Whalton Baal-Fire (Circle) Dancing (Northumberland), 'Obby 'Osses (Cornwall and Somerset)

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-
boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment), Bells, Brass, and (a recent one) the Stylophone

(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis: I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

Yeah Def Shepard,

I think that would be a very constructive outcome
to result from all this
spiralling upwards into the analhole of infinity
repetative irrational nonsense.

..in that case I guess we should thank WAV for inspiring
such a positive new blog.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

And once more, WAV avoids the question with more of his cut and paste nonsense, well WAV it's time for me to do or die, the blog account is set, and I'm ready to write. WAV cannot take credit for this, I've had this in mind for awhile, after viewing a website by a group calling itself The English Music Festival, a good idea, but it's attracted, shall we say, some of the wrong element, a link to Justice For England was the start.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM

In other words, DS, you've decided to compete a bit more fairly - we DO agree on that.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

Compete, am I competing? Nooooo WAV, you completely, as usual, misread me. I said I'm taking this whole thing to another level, to a different forum. I'm taking the use of the English Trad., by racists, to my blog. I loathe and detest you, and by any legal means will I fight you and your kind. We don't agree and we never will agree, racist


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM

don't forget this lot...

The Steadfast Trust

and give us your blog address once it's up.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM

Ruth, I'd like your imput in this, let me know, via PM


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

"I love the world being multicultural" - WAV

Im sure the world are glad to hear it. The implication is clear, you don't like Britain being multicultural. That's your prerogative and I'll know how and if to read your posts in future.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

Bye bye WAV. I'm leaving this discussion because of your continued refusal to answer even the most basic questions. I'm leaving because of your continued use of the same tired quotes from your "website."
I'm leaving because as the originator of the thread, you have refused to engage in any type of argument/counterargument-it's either your way or no way apparently. I'm leaving because you, so recently interested in this music, as opposed to those of us who have been listening and studying for a long time (By the way, in my case that is 21 of my soon to be 40 years)have deemed yourself to be some type of expert in this field. I'm leaving because you are wanting to impose some type of rule upon a musical form that by itself has no such rigidity. I'm leaving because you choose to defend yourself with your "life's work" as if anything that I have seen in there has any bearing whatsoever on any given point. Sorry, but tai chi, morris dancing, and tennis have no significance for me as to being an answer for any of the questions asked of you. Please, like so many other of my questions or comments to you, ignore this post as well, I'm sure its because you really can't answer. Now for a little multicularism. Let's see what CD's I have with me today. Ali Farka Toure, Sheila Chandra, Balkan Gypsies, Brass Monkey, Clarence Gatemouth Brown, Talking Heads, The Clash, Khaled, Lila Downs,Jack Lukeman, Tulla Ceili Band, Fairport Convention, Divan Gasparyan, Eliza Carthy, Stevie Wonder.......................


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,221Centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:55 PM


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM

Baggsy irishenglish's CD collection! :)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

btw..

"I am, rather, well travelled and studied in humanities/anthropolgy"


so were a lot of state funded 1930's/early 40's

German anthropologists......!!???


gotta love Discovery Channel !!!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:06 PM

WAV, once more said, ""I am, rather, well travelled and studied in humanities/anthropolgy"

well I am too, but it doesn't, fortunately, make me the same as you, WAV. It's an obfuscation on your part, WAV.
By the way, you STLL haven't enlightened us as to who those mysterious powers that be are :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:09 PM

I believe in the English nation and the United Nations, Glueman.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:11 PM

Here we go, " I believe in the English nation and the United Nations"

Yet another of WAV's collection of sayings, which mean absolutely nothing. obfuscation again


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

I might believe in the collective wisdom of Patience Strong and the efficacy of Joan the Wad, it doesn't mean they're provable. I arrived at this site afer Googling and found Rachel Unthank under an approved list of singers on some nationalist supremicist page. It's given me a twitch ever since.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

"Just what is English culture?"

And there we go, the crux of the matter.

Whether we like it or not, there is often a large grain of truth in stereotypes. A stereotype is like a caricature, exaggerating certain features. But it is always instantly recognizable.

From the viewpoint of an American, and a reasonably well-educated one at that, not to mention a faithful watcher of PBS, which plays a lot of British dramas, both period and modern—I could, if I wish, attempt to come up with a stereotype of the English. But—I would immediately run into trouble, because going from the English Channel to the Scottish border, I could come up with a couple of dozen stereotypes!

Aye, there's the rub!

So, just what is this English culture that WAV is so eager to preserve and protect from insidious outsiders?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,WAVWATCH
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

There's a "MIDI to WAV" thread opened below this one.
Is this a fiendish trick to convert us all to support the English Folk Degree?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:50 PM

Funny that, WAVW, having watched Spring Watch (BBC), I was just working, via Audacity software, with WAV, on some English carols I'd recorded last Christmas.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM

What is the English culture you want to preserve.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

This looks like another question WAV is avoiding. No answers WAV? Just like who the mysterious powers that be you eluded to, some way back, are?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

One final comment, then I'm going to dump this thread from the Tracer and try to forget it ever happened.

WAV, today: immigration is not the subject of this thread, but, when people have asked, I have made brief attempts to answer

This is untrue. Here's the first reference to immigration in this thread:

I love our world being multicultural, and think positive nationalism (with eco-travel and fair-trade, rather than yet more conquest and immigration) is the best way forward
WAV, three days ago

Third reference to immigration in this thread:

racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done. Questioning immigration, loss of culture, and the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law are other matters.
WAV (who else), two days ago

(Second reference: that would be me, in response to the first quote above: WAV, if you say another word about immigration we will have the repatriation argument again, and that's a promise.)

After starting this thread, WAV chose to bring his views on immigration into it. He was warned to drop the topic and told that other posters saw his views as racist. Nobody asked him to give us his views on immigration; when he did, nobody asked him to explain himself. To begin with nobody asked him anything, except to keep his views on the subject to himself. It was only because he was unwilling - or unable - to do this that we got into the pile-up we've just seen.

Now, away with this thread. Let's talk about something more interesting - ooh, I don't know, folk music or something.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM

Big Brother has just started...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM

I think we should toss WAV out :-D sorry!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

To Volgadon - the English carols I just worked on, e.g.
To PE - just in case you come back, you didn't post the posts I was responding to...I was ASKED on these matters.
Back on-thread: any opinions here on my suggestion, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

So the sum of English culture is carols?

WHO are the powers that be?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM

No one can answer you WAV, not because - unlike you - they want to put links to their website/poetry/life story instead but because, despite being asked, you won't define your terms: who on earth are "other powers-that-be in England"?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM

Who are these people...answer the bloody question, if you can.You know what, you can't because you're making the whole thing up. There is no one, it's your stupid xenophobic nationalism, trying to blame others (read immigrants) for the imagined woes of England, and of course your lack of employment (do you blame the immigrants for that as well?)


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

"And Richard Bridge, your English Folk Degree? The Newcastle degree programme covers this area already. Are you one of those bureaucrats who have this urge to create make work projects? You know, the ones that really annoy the British tax-payers? Sounds like it to me."

Can I have half a pint of what you're on? I think a whole pint might be too much.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

Well, Richard Bridge, suffice to say, my answer is no to a stand alone English Folk Music Degree. There is that easier for you to understand?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM

This could have been an interesting thread if only WAV would enter into a discussion of his views instead of simply repeating himself, and quoting his bloody awful poetry and meaningless aphorisms. We may not have agreed with him, but we might have respected him a bit more if he had been prepared to put forward reasoned arguments and evidence for his propositions. I don't think that's too much to ask of someone who, as he keeps reminding us, has a degree and has therefore presumably been taught how to think and how to discuss an issue.

I must admit, when this started I thought we might persuade WAV to reconsider once we had demonstrated the absurdity of his statements. Instead, I can almost admire his stubbornness in clinging to his beliefs in the face of almost universal opposition. Almost, but not quite. It is one thing to be mistaken (we've all done that) but for a supposedly intelligent person not to be prepared even to listen to others' views, especially those who have more experience and more expertise in the area than him, is a sign of fanaticism.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

It could be said it is a weakness of the Scottish and Irish courses that their names imply exclusiveness. The course at Newcastle is by the same token more inclusive, and by all accounts DOES turn out fine musicians and singers who perform English traditional music as well as other traditional musics.

I'm sure it all comes down purely and simply to the issue of 'bums on seats' - as discussed quite a number of times above by both me and Ruth Archer among others. From the university's point of view, why restrict your market for such a course? Given that any music department of any university studies music from everywhere, it was a really bold step for Newcastle to start a traditional music course at all. Well done them and they should be congratulated on it.

As I say, it may even be that the Scottish and Irish courses have got it wrong ... or that their market research showed they had enough of a market for such a course. Christ almight, is there really any need to get so het up about nomenclature, if the substance - the content of the course, the teachers, the students (and eventually the graduates) - proves itself worthwhile?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

Well, no, not really, at the risk of repeating myself, the music doesn't need any academics, it'll always be there, regardless. No, I don't believe a degree programme in English Folk will either add or detract from the music, so then I ask the question; What's the point? It sounds like well the Irish and the Scots have theirs; why can't we have ours? and that simply isn't a good enough reason.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Master Baiter
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:37 PM

It is I the great MB who is at fault for WAV's pathetic state of affairs and its is I who shall put him right with a jackhammer up his bung. Keep an eye out behind and on your behind WAV. A reaming you shall have in the best English tradition!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:40 PM

The real reason the Scots/Irish/Welsh are so protective/paranoid about their culture is that for many centuries their more powerful neighbour sought to smother their cultures. They are still looking over their shoulders. For most of the twentieth century we in England have celebrated Burns Night, Hogmanay, Paddy's Day far more than we have celebrated St George's Day. And now its our turn to get paranoid and the flags are coming out, the morris dancers are actually getting bookings, and somebody wants an English Folk Music degree!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM

500.Ihave been out done a gig, and this is still going on


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

Dick,
I counted em all and I make this one 500.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:59 PM

Nope,
Missed one, you were right. How sad!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM

I can't believe this load of drivel is still going on.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:14 PM

Inclusivity is not the answer. Otherwise the optimum course would be a degree in anything.

There is a good summary above. Once the Irish and Scottish musical traditions were at risk from the English. Now it is the other way round.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Master Baiter
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:47 PM

WAV's arse is at risk from a jackhammer attack. I am coming for you. Prepare to be reamed!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:25 AM

125 plays today!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:17 AM

Could it really be all over?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

There's some people on the pitch...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM

I, as it happens, was born in St. Mary's Hospital, Manchester, just a few hours before those football words were spoken, Sedayne and Ruth. (And, by the way Ruth, if it's true that you are on the committee of the EFDSS, are the others aware of this thread, and some of the language you have resorted to?)
"As I say, it may even be that the Scottish and Irish courses have got it wrong ... or that their market research showed they had enough of a market for such a course" (Sue)...there are about 50 million people in England, about 5 million in Scotland, and about 4 million in Ireland...?!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,yayaya
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

...and are they aware that she's previously been banned from other folk discussion boards for trolling and abusive postings?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM

Ruth Archer

don't forget this lot...

The Steadfast Trust


I had considered mentioning this bunch but didn't want to give them any publicity.

I'm sure there have been threads before on the infiltration of the right wing into folk music.

My own experience is of a chap who contacted me expressing an interest in English traditional music. I encouraged him and he eventually started coming along to the club and to sessions singing songs from the repertoire of Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, Henry Burstow and others. He also showed ability as an organiser and made moves to take folk music into local primary schools. We thought he was a valuable find. He had some eccentric ideas about a Golden Age of Anglo-Saxon England and claimed to worship the A-S pantheon but this seemed fairly harmless.

Then he astounded us all by circulating a press release for The Steadfast Trust announcing himself as the regional spokesman. The covering letter contained a load of tosh about the common genetic pool of the English, North-West Germans and Scandinavians and a rant against the dilution of English culture by immigration. I have been doing my best ever since to make sure that everyone that needs to know does know. He has vanished from the clubs and sessions but is showing signs of trying to get into the dance scene.

The Steadfast Trust might suit WAV quite well. He should be encouraged to join; it would make them look even more ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: mattkeen
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:17 AM

Quote yayay...and are they aware that she's previously been banned from other folk discussion boards for trolling and abusive postings?


I think you would be the trouble making troll.

Take your nasty anonymous shite out of here


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: johnadams
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM

Walksaboutverse wrote:

(And, by the way Ruth, if it's true that you are on the committee of the EFDSS, are the others aware of this thread, and some of the language you have resorted to?)


Nobody has posted to this discussion on behalf of the National Council of the EFDSS so any contributor's membership of the society or its governing body is irrelevant.

Johnny Adams - who IS a member of EFDSS National Council


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM

"Keep an eye out behind and on your behind WAV. A reaming you shall have in the best English tradition!" Master Baiter...attacking someone from behing may be your style, but please DON'T assume it is E. trad.
As I've said before to the likes of Ruth Archer and Def Shepard, there's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:40 AM

Out of curiosity, do Northumbrian traditional musicians (for example)actually consider their music as "English" music or as "Northumbrian"?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:40 AM

some of the language you have resorted to

It amuses me when watching TV and the announcer says, the following programme contains strong language, when what they really mean is that at some point someone's going to say fuck. If they say really strong language then someone's going to say cunt. So that's it, strong language = fuck, and really strong language = cunt. I might add that I regard neither fuck nor cunt to be in any way strong nor yet offensive, and relish them both literally and otherwise as being almost sacred to our primal purpose on Planet Earth, with regard to that most Sweet & Holy of Communions with the most Sweet & Holy of Feminine Principles by way of process, procedure and such wonderful, wonderful apparatus. That such words become used as derogatory, much less strong, language is fascinating in itself but surely no cause for any alarm, other than to abide by a few basic protocols of appropriateness without getting too hung up on them as might be the case here.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:46 AM

do Northumbrian traditional musicians (for example)actually consider their music as "English" music or as "Northumbrian"?

Northumbrian first, English second, British third, European forth, Terrestrial fifth, though in the playing of my relative Tom Clough one does catch a glimpse of extraterrestrial infinity...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GEUST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:30 AM

I just think its a bit rich,
desparately trying to distract & evade
from reasonable accusations of
RACISM
by criticising one of your opponents for merely SWEARING !!!


PS.. just for fun

heres a list of previous BNP sympathetic mudcat posters
that I can remember at the moment

DavidHannam
zelger
harmony
GUEST,James


curiously enough, they were posting a few years ago
at a time when BNP were trying to 'soften' their image
and present & market themeselves as a more 'respectable'
voteable party.
Coincedently, roughly the same time WAV decided to teach himself folk music
and pop up in 'our' music venues and forums. ???


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GEUST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:42 AM

and come to think of it.
I have vague memories of one of them or another name I can not recall right now.
I'm sure that poster would open new threads on contentious subjects
and then just sit back and disapear
from all the inevitable divisive arguing and flaming he/she'd provoked.
Maybe just joining in now and then with the odd bland comment
or nodd in the direction of 'welcoming' BNP doctine.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM

As I've said on this very thread, obviously where you have not read, Guest?, I'm not a member of the BNP or any other political party - I believe in the English nation and the UN.
And, if it was compulsory to log in to post, I may not need to be quite as repetative as I have been - I think it's likely that some newbies to a thread read the first few commments, then go straight to the last, thus I keep responding to suchlike.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:30 PM

Oh I see - Geust...

The room is empty, everyone's taken their coats and gone home - no more coats, no more homes (where's that from again?) (Hawkwind - Space Ritual). Hey - you should have been here a few days ago, Christ! but that was a blinder, still, it's all over now, even the shouting, only a few stray ghosts. What? What am I still doing here? Oh I - er - left my hat - no scarf - that's it - I left my scarf, but someone else must have took it - because - it doesn't appear to be here now. Summer now anyway, just about - the May's been and gone, clouts have been cast and we've sang our May Carols and our Hal-an-Tows and now we're off to Rumbelows for a new telly, seeing the old one got smashed in the riot - much fucking use it was too - some good stuff on too - Jonathan Meades last night - EastEnders - Early Music on BBC4 tonight - so no need for a scarf really - not in this weather. And Springwatch - let's not forget about Springwatch - although you can see the real thing on Fairhaven Lake - the birds are out with their young - the swans, geese, ducks, canada geese, coots, moorhens. Summer - music - must dig out my Augustus Pablo CDs - King Tubby's Meets the Rockers Uptown - African Headcharge (remember them?) - the Pistols - XTC's White Music - Young Marble Giants - Burning Spear - Digable Planets - Dragon Ash - remember that song at the end of Battle Royale? God, I love Beat Takeshi - my favourite's Kikujiro but I still cry when I hear that - like Born Slippy at the end of Trainspotting - only better - somehow - but don't ask me to explain - just listen - Shizukana Hibi no Kaidan wo - the Stair Steps of a Quiet Day - yes - just - listen -

Grass and trees become green, flowers colorfully bloom.
Seasons come by again. A comfortable spring day,
With out anything to do I think by myself
in the tree lined street.
The days go by without any break.
I am struggling to manage myself here.
Sometimes, let's live a life
Without thinking so deeply.
Morning comes, the sun rises again.
Outside the window the south wind
blows the pain in my heart.
Shall the tears I shed in the past days
be pulled into my unconsciousness.
what is important is the light,
I'd like to stay here a bit more.

WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
To the direction of the shining light
heading into the open future ahead.
WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
Like pouring water into a vase
my wishes please be granted.

SO The face and the tears
washed by an off season rain
before the rain stops,
GERRA I smile with a clean face.
Like that, goes away ONE WEEK.
With my tired body I take ONE DRINK
At the meeting place my friends are all there.
like every day we spend the night chatting nonsense
to continue on with these days
I flap my wings like a bird.
Everyone is doing their best. Don't lose; we don't have a pinch runner.
Going over the people laughing at you,
catch the dream you imagined into your hands.
Wish to the shooting star after the rain.
Now stand up my friend.

WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
To the direction of the shining light
heading into the open future ahead.
WE GO EVERY DAY, let's go with laughter
Like pouring water into a vase
my wishes please be granted.

Without no reason I set off my mobile.
In the far back of the noise
can't you hear the voice of the wind
drifting away now where and why.
Obvious though, I listen on.
Like putting your own future over it.
Wanting something to be said about my self, is the same feeling.
My life goes away bit by bit.
Now I possess multiple copies of my childhood dreams.
I make a stupid face
as I brush my teeth in front of the mirror in the morning.
Going outside. I live a day like this.
I'll stop waiting for the night.
Resting isn't bad, charge up your energy.
quietly the city ticks away time.
Connecting our dreams, we make an arch.

Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo

The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day

Under the sky without the breeze,
I reach out to catch tomorrow.

Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo
Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo

The stair steps of a quiet day
The stair steps of a quiet day


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

This is the right link for the Dragon Ash song - Shizukana hibi no kaidan wo - Japanese hip-hop - cool as fuck - check it out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpsEJOryZ7U

Hal an Tow - we're off to Rumbelows!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:49 PM

Sorry, "Cool as Fuck" was the definitive Inspiral Carpets tee-shirt.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM

Can you believe he repeats this nonsense over and over. "I believe in the English nation and the UN

Personally I believe in the British nation and I don't believe in the UN. What tthat has to do with folk or anyother sort of music, I have no idea, oh and I'm listening to Neil Young right now, decidedly un-English and definitely not folk, so sue me if you want! :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:39 PM

I believe in the tooth fairy. Is that relevant?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

About as relevant as me believing in the British nation and not believing in the UN, which is not at all. :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

I don't think that quote's in Space Ritual, although it's a long time since I heard it. It is in The Revolution of Everyday Life; it's part of a quote from a Russian writer called Rozanov, which Vaneigem says is 'the best definition of nihilism'.

The show is over. The audience get up to leave their seats. Time to collect their coats and go home. They turn round... No more coats and no more home.

Reminds me of that essential distillation of phenomenological existentialism by one P. McCartney:

And, though she feels as if she's in a play,
She is anyway...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GEUST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

oops.. at the moment I'm listening to some shamefully dodgy

Pagan Viking Folk Metal CDs

honestly, just because I'm a lefty folkie,
don't mean I can't enjoy
the 'wrong' kinds of music from time to time..


I'll get me Crombie...........


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM

"I believe in the English nation and the UN."

We know you do, WAV, you've told us often enough. But still none of us has the faintest idea what you mean by it. Is there any possibility that you might one day explain yourself?


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

I must admit to being partial,(and I don't care what anyone thinks!) to a band from Minneapolis, in the U.S named Boiled In Lead, two of the musicians are 'folkies' and the other two are 'metal' musicans, the combination is, shall we say, VERY interesting. I recommend their first CD, entitled From The Ladle to the Grave. I got the CD from my niece who was visiting in Minneapolis at the time.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

"me (DS) believing in the British nation and not believing in the UN, which is not at all. :-D"...from here...

"A similar mess over nationality occurs in the sporting world where English children, for example, can hope to play (perhaps managed by a citizen of a nation they may compete against) football for England, rugby-league for England/Great Britain, rugby-union for England/British Isles, athletics for England/U.K., golf for ngland/Europe, cricket for a combined England and Wales, or tennis for Great Britain - but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships…Anyone for friendly-rival republics?!"


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM

Sedayne, thanks for the link. I love small pipes (I try to convince my wife to, as well).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

I can guess who Guest, yayaya is. I can guess that they've also PMed WAV to tell them of my affiliation with EFDSS, as the person in question is a great friend of WAVs and also a nutter who his banned from just about every folk forum there is.

Unlike me, who has never, EVER been banned from a form. nope, not once.

:)

And as Johnny says, i am not posting as a representative of any organisation (which is one reason I choose to use a nom de guerre.) I relresent only my own views here.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GEUST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

Bugger it !!!

can't find any Skrewdriver CDs in my collection..

See I think if we all listen to only nazi-skin Oi music this summer,
we can cut out the 'middle-man';
save the likes of WAV a lot of hard work
trying his subtle approach to influence our tastes and thinking..

sod it, if by September, after such hardcore musical indoctrination
we're not all out on the streets protesting
against immigration..

well blimey.. !!!????


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:29 PM

I can't see a problem with an English folk music degree if it focuses on the styls of music within England. For this to be thorough it would naturally have to acknowledge and highlight aspects of cross-pollenation, history, immigration etc.

It doesn't have to suggest there is a homogenous folk music in England. It might include things like bell-ringing (not just English, of course), pipes, diasporic musics (Scots, Jewish, Reggae etc).

If you look at the Finnish folk scene you find many of the musicians studied at the folk department of the Sibellius academy but there's nothing homognous about the Finnish sound(s).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:38 PM

WAV said, "
"A similar mess over nationality occurs in the sporting world where English children, for example, can hope to play (perhaps managed by a citizen of a nation they may compete against) football for England, rugby-league for England/Great Britain, rugby-union for England/British Isles, athletics for England/U.K., golf for ngland/Europe, cricket for a combined England and Wales, or tennis for Great Britain - but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships…Anyone for friendly-rival republics?!"

I'm all for doing away with the monarchy, it's a waste of time, space and money, however it has nothing to do with music, which is my prime interest, and WAV, once more you've cut and pasted much and you said absolutely nothing, and you know what,The All England Tennis thingie, that's something else that needs a close look in terms of, a waste of space, time and money, wait though, I don't believe anyone that is English holds the mens or womens titles currently... Oh Dear! :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

Did we ever find out which English culture WAV wants?

---
Thinking back RB's sort of "inherited English genes", etc. my own "culture genes" are confused. My father's generations of living in Norwich are quite different to my mothers generations of living in Shropshire not far from the Welsh borders and her living in a community that had far more "Welsh chapel" about it than it had my father's Norwich English.

Of course I'm not "pure English" anyway. My fathers side were Flemish and came over to Norwich with the woolen trade centuries ago, so amongst other things, I suppose I'm an immigrant of sorts.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:31 PM

The show is over. The audience get up to leave their seats. Time to collect their coats and go home. They turn round... No more coats and no more home.

It's many (many) years since I last held the cover of Space Ritual in my hands; I recall pouring over the detail of this veritable palimpsest of cut & paste in a state of general hammered-ness pondering the glorious implication of it all. Why fear death? It's the most beautiful thing about life! I remember with a certain clarity; and, as I say, the above Show is over... quote. Of course it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that I'm getting it mixed up with something else entirely, but I'll look it up when next the opportunity presents itself - maybe the next time on my hands & knees raking though the second-hand vinyl in Action Records in Preston.

Elsewhere, I've mentioned the current issue of Mojo, on p. 24 you can read about the latest Hawkwind project, In Search of Space - The Return. It's worth paying the cover prive for the picture of Brocky alone.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM

Also in the current issue of Mojo, John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) meets Maddy Prior. Now how English is THAT? :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

As English as it's possible to be. Well spotted!


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:09 PM

oop - that there were me.


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:19 PM

Doesn't much more English, though I'm sure the originator of this thread will have something (or nothing) to say :-D
I have a wee surprise in store for 'our friend' unfortunately it'll have to wait till tomorrow, as I'm still writing and illustrating at the moment, oh and it's very, very English. :-D


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

Also in the current issue of Mojo, John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) meets Maddy Prior. Now how English is THAT?

So English I opened it a thread especially devoted to it - see Here, although the moderators didn't find it folkloric enough to be folklore...


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,GEUST[not arsed loggin in]
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:35 PM

"Also in the current issue of Mojo, John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) meets "Maddy Prior. Now how English is THAT?"

well excited..!!!!!

without knowing eff all about this meeting..

just the thought of seeing the 2 of 'em both dancing together

at an annual BBC music alumni awards ceromony

sends scary shivers

up my

[word deleted to spare the blushes of the swear-word over sensitive souls amongst us]


one mad aunty on too many sherries at a xmas family party

..and Maddy Prior in her swirling hippy skirts


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,GEUST[not arsed loggin in]
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:31 AM

actually WAV..

have you ever considered moving to middle America

I just sorta suspect

you might find the perfect ENGLAND

you are crusading for...




and as a bonus ..

every now and then Chanel 4 might commision a documentary crew
to give you airtime on national UK TV
to broadcast your enlightening sermons.
to all of us back here in your own God given English Fair Island utopia

well.. just a thought.!!??


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:31 AM

No - I'll never re/emigrate, NALI, but I may VIST the USA AGAIN (see poems #37-41, if you like).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ed.
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:31 AM

David (WAV), may I ask you one question that might help clear all this up. Do you agree with the views of the BNP?

Their mission statement is here: Click to read.

Do you agree? A link to your rank poetry/prose is not an answer.

Ed


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:12 AM

As I've already said, Ed, when the pre-election pamphlets are delivered, I read all of them and as with most people probably agree with all parties on SOME things, as well as disagreeing with them on some things. I'm not a member of the BNP, and their "red, white AND blue" - I prefer the "positive nationalism"/ENGLISH nationalism of the English Democrats.
Now, as Sedayne suggested above, unless anyone has anymore on-thread comments about the degree in question, this should now be a dead thread (although the last time/thread I suggested such, the next 100 posts came rapidly indeed).


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Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ed.
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:31 AM

I guessed that yo'd say that...

Do you agree with the general sentiment of the BNP literature? Is it more rrgt than wrong in your opinin?


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Mudcat time: 26 May 3:16 AM EDT

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