English Folk Degree?

Subject: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:16 PM

From here: "I think it's good that students at Newcastle upon Tyne can do a Degree in Folk and Traditional Music, but I wish it was a Degree in English Traditional and Contemporary Folk Music – to match Glasgow's Degree in Scottish Traditional Music, and Limerick's Degree in Irish Traditional Music and Dance."

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:23 PM

A degree in Eng Trad would be nice, but I don't think any mudcatters really have pull with the UCAS.
Do you have any practical suggestions?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:40 PM

For a far more reliable source please visit the following:

Folk and Traditional Music BMus Honours

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Gedpipes
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:46 PM

One problem with that degree I think is that is it not possible to take grades in some tradtional instruments?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:51 PM

The course outline is here

Folk and Traditional Music BMus Honours course outline

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Grab
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:55 PM

Do the participants of the degree wish it was a specifically English folk degree? That's the real question. Whatever your ideology regarding folk music, you're not taking the course and they are.

Given that British Isles folk music has always been incredibly intermixed, with tunes travelling fairly freely between countries, I'm reminded of the joke about the med-school student talking to his tutor.

"I think diseases of the ear, nose and throat are very different," says the student, "so I plan on specialising in diseases of the nose."

"Is that a fact?" says the doctor. "And which nostril were you thinking of specialising in?"

Graham.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 12:57 PM

I've seen quite a few final recitals from this degree, and thought that the quality has been very good and the selection poor - i.e., for a folk degree within the borders of England there has not been anywhere near enough E-trads.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:11 PM

But WAV, a degree is one thing, but a good performer forms his own repertoire along the way.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:18 PM

But Volgadon, via satellite, I've also seen some recitals from the SCOTTISH Traditional Music Degree in Glasgow, and all/nearly all they performed was indeed Scottish...why can't we have that in England?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:18 PM

WAV-my basic understanding of this is that you are right, there should be such a thing. See? we can agree on things WAV. I wish you had answered my questions in the other thread, but we'll let that go as this is a new topic.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:19 PM

*curls up in a corner and weeps quietly*

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:25 PM

Seeing as we seem to have reached a consensus on the last thread, can we just let this one drop to the bottom? Don't feed the troll.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:40 PM

I am going to add one more thing and personally allow this repeat thread to drop through the floor. IF you can be bothered reading the course outline, you'll see that there is more covered than your precious English Traditional, the course being far more broadminded and open. It don't matter, to me, what the course is named, the music will survive regardless, and I will continue to play the music, now, if you'll excuse me I think I'm going to put on The Albion Dance Band.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:31 PM

For many of us the idea of an English Folk Degree is not of any immediate relevance or practicality, but there is always so much to learn outside, and irrespective of, academia. As a resolutely non-academic for whom the appeal of Folk Music has always been its essential non-academic empiricism, I might despair over any sort of folk music degree course at all simply because it has no immediate relevance to me personally, nor indeed to my innumerable fellow folkies whose passion & commitment to this music has kept it going on a grass-roots level since year zero. I'm hearing good things though, and would hope young singers are coming up irrespective of what they might be doing at university, or indeed, if university is an option at all.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:43 PM

Anyway, WAV, can you offer any practical suggestions? If not, this seems like a pointless thread, almost like asking people if they thought more folk recordings was a good idea.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 02:45 PM

English folk recordings please :-D (sorry)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:07 PM

To Volgadon - simply learn from the Scots and the Irish and have an ENGLISH folk degree, rather than a (if you'll pardon my French) laissez faire "Folk degree."

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:11 PM

What I mean is, why have a thread about it? Not one person here can do more than say 'yes, it's a good idea'.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:15 PM

WAV said, "laissez faire "Folk degree." How dare you! This BMus programme is one of the best things to happen in a very long time and YOU sit there and pronounce judgement on it. You aren't even remotely qualified, dearie, so get off your high horse!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:45 PM

If an Englishman starts the "Traditional" degree doing his own songs with a guitar (rather than an English cittern), and 4 years later, at his final recital, does only his own songs with his guitar - without learning/performing one E. trad - is the course "one of the best things to happen in a very long time" (DS)?...Or are the lecturers and tutors not doing their job. That's what I mean by "laissez faire folk degree" (above).

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:52 PM

WAV said, "does only his own songs with his guitar - without learning/performing one E. trad"

So...what's the problem?

and yes the programme is the best thing to happen in a long time

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Well, speaking as one who recently gave a presentation on the music of Cumbria to the students on the course - as part of a module on The Music of the North East and Borders (stretching a point, including Cumbria I suppose, but the north of the county has always been 'the debateable land'- sometimes Scottish, sometimes not.

Many of these students eagerly took away the photocopies I brought of manuscript fiddle tunebooks from Cumbria, so I guess they'll be playing some of them. But actually many of those tunes are versions of Irish and Scottish tunes - or are the Irish and Scottish tunes variants of English versions? Who knows? They were all mixed up in the 18th and 19th centuries, so they've no racial purity ... much as WAV might want such a thing.

What a nonsense to imagine that the English, Irish and Scottish traditions are discrete entities! It's never historically been so, so why should it be now?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:28 PM

Thank You, Sue! Finally someone who's there, on the ground, and knows what they're talking about, now your presentation is something I would love have attended, fiddle (shock, horror scandal! an electric fiddle :-D) being my first instrument, and me still in the throes of learning.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:02 PM

We're talking cultural NOT "racial" here, Sue; And, as to your "What a nonsense to imagine that the English, Irish and Scottish traditions are discrete entities! It's never historically been so, so why should it be now?"...do you, then, think the names of the degrees in Glasgow and Limerick should not have the words "Scottish" and "Irish", reapecitvely?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:07 PM

Strewth, cobber! Give it a bone, will ya?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:07 PM

Sue was talking cultural, so, please don't play the racial card, you're the least qualified to be doing that. Does saying the pot calling the kettle black come to mind?
I go with Sue, she, at least, knows what she's talking about, having, as I said, been there.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:36 PM

As someone who has studied anthropology, or sociology, will of course know, cultures (or nation) which have been subsumed into a greater whole, under a greater power, such as historically has been the case with (Northern) Ireland and Scotland as part of the British Isles with those countries seeking to define themselves against the hegemony of England. England has not, historically, felt the same need. Its strength has been, in fact, its ability to absorb and adapt and re-present in an English context a hotch potch of different influences.

Cultural differences in the British Isles, in terms of traditional music, may well be more indicative of what Benedict Anderson calls 'Imagined Communities' than geographically bounded, or racially constituted, communities.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:39 PM

Sorry, some cutting and pasting made my first sentence nonsense ... the point I was trying to get over was that those countries with less power (eg Scotland) will always seek to define themselves AGAINST the hegemonic power of England

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 30 May 08 - 05:44 PM

Re: 'Imagined Communities' Thanks Sue, much information here to seek out and digest.
I wonder if the same can be said for WAV, who allegedly has a degree in the Humanities in anthropology...well that's what he says anyway.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:00 PM

I'm all for education, me. Huddersfield University turns out some of the bangingest grooves at the Contemporary Music Festival and keeps Radio 3 going throughout the winter months. I was a lecturer for about a decade (not in music or at Hudds) and only got out when I realised my erstwhile charges were earning more in a day than I did in a year.
Still, let's not let inverted snobbery get in the way of a good rant.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:08 PM

What you say is, of course, absolutely true, Sue. And I do respect the fact that you are actually there involved in it all, and therefore obviously know your onions.

The comments in your last post are applicable politically. I do, however, wonder whether when it comes to music, the power relationship is actually reversed, i.e. that English traditional music might be seen as a poor cousin in comparison to the other two in terms of relative participation, recognition (certainly internationally), cultural definition and possibly in terms of sponsorship.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:12 PM

You're right melodeonboy, there has certainly been more international recognition of Irish and Scottish music. Perhaps because there is a large Scottish/Irish diaspora? It's a very interesting question. Irish music in particular has been much more successful at promoting its image internationally. I have no answers as to why that should be the case and would be interested to hear what others think ...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:29 AM

The Scottish/Irish diaspora feeds back into England too. Many of the Irish who were brought over as scab labour in 1926 stayed on, though in certain Durham villages bad feelings linger. An old friend of mine, for example, never dared tell her mother she'd converted to Roman Catholicism. These bad feelings aren't racial, or even cultural, rather they are political, for the best & worst of reasons. I once met an old Irish man who told me how he'd come over as a young man in 1926 and had been beaten up so badly he'd ended up in hospital; a delegation of miners came to see him, having raised enough money for his passage home, explaining their cause & presenting him with a copy of The Manifesto of the Communist Party!

The old Newcastle song A U Hinney Burd mentions the Castle Garth for tailors referring to the innumerable tailors who had their shops on the Castle Garth Stairs leading from the castle to the quayside, many of whom were Irish, and one of whom was my great-great-grandfather, newly arrived from Dublin. Strong Irish traditions on Tyneside - didn't John Doonan live out near the Felling? In the North-West of course, things are very Irish indeed, with marked Irish influences on both the culture and spirituality of the region, and as one small-time hotelier recently told me: there's more Scots living in Blackpool than there are in Edinburgh. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but at times one wonders why we bother having borders at all. I'm presently a member of the of IoNAJHA - the Islands of the North Atlantic Jew's harp Association. I like that a good deal; this is my home, The Islands of the North Atlantic!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:14 AM

I think the idea that it's okay/cool/expected for Scotland to be Scottish, and Ireland to be Irish, but not for England to be English is definitely wrong; all the pre-war imperialism of our forebears was wrong, but so is the post-war neglect of our own good English culture...

Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:33 AM

The Irish and Scottish courses are, by defining themselves in terms of Irish and Scottish traditional music, narrow and inward-looking.

Should we not be celebrating the fact that an English university is offering a folk degree which is more outward-looking and willing to embrace ideas from elsewhere? The very characteristics, in fact, which made England great.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:36 AM

The very characteristics, in fact, which made England great

I suppose the point is that cultures are largely illusory on account of our ongoing inability to see the trees for the wood; if one adopts a more ethnomethodological approach then we might clarify what might be going on here. There is no culture without people, and there is no folk culture, in the sense we understand it here on Mudcat with our notions of folk music etc, that has any bearing whatsoever on the everyday lives of the vast majority of English Folks. So even if it was true that it is the rest-of-the-world's good wish / To sense culture that is English, it certainly would not involve Morris Dancing which most English Folk would see as at best a cliché of eccentric anachronism and at worst a risible embarrassment. There is no such thing as our own good English culture, certainly not in the sense that it is being used here.

Anyhoo - it's half eleven & the sun is shining & all is well - hope it is wherever you lot are too; so enjoy the day. Just a shame The Pierrotters aren't at Blackpool's North Pier this weekend - now there's English Culture which everyone can & does enjoy!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:50 AM

Dear WAV, instead of pontificating here on subjects of which you have only the sketchiest ideas, you might consider doing some reading about the issues. I would suggest, to start with:

The Study of Folk Music in the Modern World - Philip Bohlman
Folk Song: Tradition, Revival and Re-Creation – Ian Russell & David Atkinson (ed)
Singer, song and scholar – Ian Russell (ed)
The Imagined Village - Georgina Boyes
The Invention of Tradition - Eric Hobsbawm & Terence Ranger (ed.)
Imagined Communities - Benedict Anderson
The Invention of 'Folk Music' and 'Art Music' - Matthew Gelbart
If you fancy going head to head with another polemicist, of a very different persuasion, then try Fakelore by Dave Harker.
And of course there are also the excellent annual Folk Music Journals published by the English Folk Dance & Song Society – plus further bibliographies on the EFDSS website with plenty of other suggestions for you.
(No cost need be involved in any of this: all available from libraries - and your local library can get any book via inter library loan)

If you have issues about the Newcastle course, then I suggest it would be much more productive for you to contact the director of the course with your concerns, Vic Gammon, than sounding off on Mudcat. His email is [e-mail] I'm sure he would be happy to explain the rationale of the course and give you more detail. Vic is of course not only a well-respected and widely published academic, but is also well-known on the folk scene as a performer of English traditional song and instrumental music and has made numerous recordings.

Sedayne - you're right: it's too nice a day to stay in ... I'm off for lunch outside then a walk up Latrigg!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Graveyard
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:32 AM

Why do people keep falling for these threads?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:16 AM

Because there's a strange fascination in watching WAV trying to justify the bollocks he writes without recourse to a single coherent argument which he can back up with facts.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:44 AM

To Sue: some of the above that you ASSUMED I have not read, I have, but thanks. I've already had discussions/arguments with Vic Gammon, via (private) email, so I'm not going to publish his thoughts here; we have also been at the same singarounds and gigs; and I know of something of his academic career and essays (I, too, have written a few - with distinctions, by the way, Howard.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 09:55 AM

WAV, you keep going on about your academic successes, and I'm not doubting you. However there's little evidence of rigourous thinking in your postings on Mudcat or indeed on your website. A university education used to be about teaching you how to think and how to present an argument. Perhaps that's no longer the case.

You make statements as if they're self-evident. You make no real attempt to persuade us of their merits. When people put forward reasoned arguments against your propositions, you don't engage with them or produce facts to refute them, you just repeat yourself and refer to the ramblings on your own website in justification.

If you want us to take you seriously, then come to us with reasoned opinions rather than prejudices, and with arguments and facts to support them. When arguments and facts are put forward to refute your views, then reply with a reasoned argument, or be prepared to alter them. Then we can have a proper debate.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:41 AM

Here's something, Howard and all - really a reminder more than a message, as many folk-organisers of the 50s and 60s advocated the same - I would strongly suggest for all within and without any folk degree: APPRECIATE OTHER CULTURES BUT PRACTISE/PERFORM YOUR OWN. I, e.g., whilst learning the recorder came across a beautiful tune/song called "My Bonnie" which, once confirmed as Scottish, I now ignore. Here it is, in G, in my shorthand, FOR SCOTTISH EYES ONLY...

DBAGAGEDB
DBAGGF#GA
DBAGAGEDB
DEAGF#EF#G

DGEA
F#F#F#F#EF#GAB
DGEA
GF#F#F#F#EF#G

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:44 AM

You ignore tune because it's NOT English, and you'll claim that's cultural not anything to do with race,

You know what? I'm going to play both other traditions and the English tradition, and if this makes me less English in your eyes; well isn't that just TOO bad? I won't lose any sleep.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:52 AM

WAV, it's up to you what material you choose to add to your repertoire. However, most musicians are happy to acquire a good tune from any source, and always have been - there is no traditional justification for denying oneself a good tune because of its origin.

The tune you describe is known to far more English people than many "English" folk tunes.

The tune used for the National Anthem is probably German in origin.

The traditional repertoires of the British Isles are intermingled. I play a tune which Irish musicians recognise instantly as "The Cliff". I learned it from the playing of Bob McCann from Devon, who got it from his uncle. English or Irish? Another of Bob's family tunes, "Hot Punch" is also commonly found in Shetland. "Flowers of Edinburgh", "Bluebells of Scotland" and "Banks of the Dee" are traditional Morris tunes. English or Scottish? The answer is of course, both. The differences between English, Irish and Scottish traditional music lie more in the playing styles than the repertoire.

I can claim to have been indirectly responsible for introducing "Michael Turner's Waltz" to France. This tune is from the manuscript book of a Sussex fiddle player. I once played it in a session, and one of the musicians there learned it from me. He later moved to France, and introduced it into sessions there, where it is known as "Dave's Waltz". Recent research has identified the tune as being by Mozart, although it was probably an Austrian folk tune arranged by him.

Tunes migrate, and always have. To pretend otherwise, in the hope of preserving some kind of cultural purity, is futile. To deny yourself the pleasure of a good tune because of its origin is as fatuous as boycotting English country dancing because you don't like the word "ceilidh".

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Graveyard
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:52 AM

Oh Dear, how boring and tedious this all is, think I will go out for a pint.
This sounds like the rantings of someone who lives on their own with nothing better to do than pour over their own philosophies.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:20 PM

Just to pretend we don't know where this thread is going for a moment, wouldn't a Northumbrian piper have more in common with a Scottish one five miles away, than he/she would with an English mill town brass band? Likewise a Oswestry fiddler with one in Llangollen rather than a Midland car works band? Or does Albion's cordon sanitaire act as an effective prophylactic to migrating noise?

There are regional English musical cultures, the West Midlands gave us heavy metal, Sheffield may not have invented electro but gave it a voice and Liverpool's port status gave it access to blues records to mess with a week or two before anyone else. Then there's the unconsidered trifles valorised in Wigan's Casino, Stoke, Manchester, Blackpool and Cleethorpes. But as for a single domestic musical culture, I ain't buying.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:26 PM

Where there are long-running disputes over the origins of trad. tunes/songs, I suggest we toss a coin, rather than make our way, Howard, to the likes of Hastings or Calloden.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:35 PM

Oi! The West Midland maybe responsible (and a heavy responsibility it is :-D) for Ozzy Osbourne, Black Sabbath, half of Led Zeppelin etc, etc, but we also find the following from the same area.
West Midland Carols
We adopted Dave Swarbrick
The Ian Campbell Folk Group
Dave Pegg
Ric Sanders
well you get the idea.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:37 PM

WAV says, Where there are long-running disputes over the origins of trad. tunes/songs, I suggest we toss a coin, rather than make our way, Howard, to the likes of Hastings or Calloden.
That maybe you very lazy way of doing things, and it shows, but it's not mine nor is it the way of many Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:54 PM

The point is, WAV, that once a tune's been set loose it can end up anywhere. There's no reason why it can't become part of more than one culture. It's not the point of origin that's important, it's what becomes of it afterwards. If it's adopted into a culture it becomes part of it.