BS: Green/Godly Gardening

Subject: BS: GREEN/GODLY GARDENING
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:00 AM

(Further to the gardening verses in walkaboutsverse.741.com)

Green gardening is native gardening, and vegetables, plus other consumables, should be the only exotic-flora we plant - as doing so can help limit food-miles, etc. By filling our other garden spaces with natives, we use less water and other resources, whilst aiding the native-fauna that, over the centuries, have evolved with them.
(Even high-nectar exotics, such as Buddleia, that are very attractive to SOME native-fauna, should be avoided, because they upset nature's/God's balance – God created evolution, too, that is.)
Our green gardens, with their vegies and natives, can be made still greener by the addition of compost heaps/bins; a wildlife pond – for native frogs, newts, etc, rather than exotic goldfish; bee- and bird-boxes, plus carefully selected feeders; rain- and grey-water vats; by growing everything organically, including thrifty home-propagation/species-swapping; and by leaving some lush untidy patches, decaying branches, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

Do you like potatoes, tomatoes and beans?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:58 PM

Oy, vey.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

"Do you like potatoes, tomatoes and beans?" OTS...Yes, I do like eating such exotic vegetables, which I have exempted from the above native-only rule, for environmental/"green" reasons (food-miles, etc.).

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

Who are you to exempt things? Any divine apointments we should know about?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

"Godly" in "Green/Godly Gardening", OTS, refers to the idea that God created evolution, too; and I think it's bad to upset nuture's/God's balance by growing non-consumable exotic flora instead of natives in our gardens, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

By all means ask us to CONSIDER planting native species, and give your reasons.
But telling us what to do in the name of a supposed god, (who if it exists presumably made us the medlesome species we are) will not inspire many to do it your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

Either way, as loss of native habitat is inextricably linked to loss of native species, planting natives is obviously a good thing that, after decades of preference for exotica, is just beginning to (re)gain favour in England, e.g.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:31 AM

But who are you, Walkabouts, to decide what is exempt? Maybe if you were to give us your reasoning, but for you to make pronouncements on God's will....

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:03 AM

If the explorers of old had not brought exotic plants to England and nursed them in the great glass cathedral that is Kew Gardens, then several species would have become extinct forever, rather than just in their native countries.

Many plants and animals have been reintroduced to their native soils soley because they've been nurtured and reproduced elsewhere.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:11 AM

Walkabouts, there are a number of us here who are serious gardeners and responsible stewards.    We are not too inclined to simple pronouncements.    If you have a passion for gardening and a point of view, I think I can safely say that many of us welcome you to our conversations. However, they are definitely conversations.

Discussions about "native" species need to be thoughtful and informed to have meaning. Many non-native species of flora and fauna on this side of the pond (North America) have still been around for a few hundred years and have become important, and not necessarily inappropriate, pieces of the ecosystem. The ecosystem is very different from what it was in 1492. For better or for worse, that is the reality. In 1492 a squirrel along almost any point of the Atlantic coast could have traveled to the Mississippi River without ever setting foot on the ground.   That solid, virgin forest that stretched 1/3 of the way across this continent is gone forever, and the habitat is different in most places. That is the reality. Old World flora and fauna have been here hundreds of years and are integral parts of the current ecosystem. Furthermore, they have evolved along with the changing ecosystem. And ecosystems are naturally in a state of flux. By definition, so is evolution. Simplistic pronouncements really don't contribute much to understanding or protection.

Janie

Broad 'pronouncements' really don't add much to intelligent and discerning discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:14 AM

pardon the redundancy above. It is redundant even for me!>)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:48 AM

Please first define 'natives'. Native at what particular time in history - pre-Victorian, pre-Tudor, pre-Medieval, pre-Roman, prehistoric?

I don't disagree with you about growing veggies and plants that are best suited to the environment, but this is now changing rapidly - I'm growing my tomatoes ourside the polytunnel for the first time this year (up in Yorkshire), might try the chillies next year.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:29 AM

"If the explorers of old had not brought exotic plants to England and nursed them in the great glass cathedral that is Kew Gardens, then several species would have become extinct forever, rather than just in their native countries.

Many plants and animals have been reintroduced to their native soils soley because they've been nurtured and reproduced elsewhere."

(LTS) - but this, too, can/should be done in situ...

Poem 203 of 230: IN SITU

When faced with a critical view,
    A zoo's main raison d'être is -
The conservation of species;
    But this can be done in situ.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

To Janie:

Firstly, I try not to take an attitude of "passion" that you mention...

Poem 150 of 230: TEARS

Watching a documentary
    Of the '66 World Cup,
And the way of England's Ramsey,
    I thought: "Let's give 'passion' up."

It voiced and showed his calm way -
    He playing things down a touch;
And, as his home team won the day,
    They showed care but not too much.

Analytical Englishmen -
    Cool over the tasks that lay;
We see some of it in Henman,
    But it's not the modern way.

Sadly, passion and youthful thought
    Have become the status quo,
And social-standards and sport
    Have sunk relatively low.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Secondly, are you sure that in the USA "That solid, virgin forest that stretched 1/3 of the way across this continent is gone forever"?...here in England, most native habitats/forest can be re-created by human hands - if the will and the land is there.

Thirdly, plant hunting/replacement has nothing to do with nature's/God's evolution.

To Theleveller: I think that's good - you'll be "doing your bit" (Churchill) to cut down on food-miles and packaging, and the taste will probably be better.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:37 AM

Do you ever discuss, or do you just quote your website?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:46 AM

Thirdly, plant hunting/replacement has nothing to do with nature's/God's evolution.

You don't think that God could inspire individuals to plant hunt/replace, or does he have to descend and do everything himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:49 AM

" but this, too, can/should be done in situ..."

Of course it can and should, but for many species it is already too late.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:02 AM

WAV, your attitude seems to be one of extreme, sublime boredom, that old English caricature. It feels studied.

Here are some examples of passionate Englishmen. All from before the 1920s.

Sir Henry Rawlinson.
Sir Richard Francis Burton.
Horace Walpole.
William Blake.
William Sleeman.
Matthew 'Monk' Lewis.
Byron.
Shelley.
William Wilberforce.

Keeping a cool head while being passionate about something is not self-contradictory.

Anyway, there is a simple reason why that forest in North America can never be restored. High population density.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Sedayne (in Norfolk)
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:16 AM

WAV - there is no God, only the wondrous faith of collective humanity. And as William Blake said: 'Where man is not - nature is barren.'

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:03 PM

Thread reopened. I can't figure out why it was closed, and none of the volunteers reported having closed it.
Sorry about the confusion.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:36 PM

Well, native is a strange concept when it comes to gardening... Like Janie, I am also a gardener... Gardeners don't just go out and see what is growing around where they live... The look for things which are compatable and things that enhance out quality of life... Many things which we take for granted as being "native" aren't native at all but hybrids that were introduced a long time ago... This introduction could have been assisted by man or assited by other animals that carry or drop seed... Either way, it is Godly...

Our gardens are organic in every repsect and we do try to create the perfect ecosystem for all of God's critters, bugs included... But we also enjoy grasses, azaleas, rhodos, pulmaneria, ferms, wild flowers that don't grace this area of Paradise but that enhance it... And in doing so we creat yet more environs for critters...

When we moved to this farm 3 years ago there wasn't one single bird here... There were few bugs... It was a hog farm where the hogs had eaten everything dwon to bare earth... So we broke up the soil and plowed starw into it... That created a place for the bugs... With the bugs we got birds, and mice and snakes and all of the stuff that nature has to provide... Three short years later and it looks like a bird sanctuary... We have hundred and hundreds of birds... We have snakes, and mice, and toads, and frogs, and, and...

And we also have hundreds of plants which can live and survive well here and they provide homes for other critters... There is a thread about strange bugs... Hey, I wouldn't know where to start as I don't go a day without seein' some bug I don't think I've ever seen before...

Well, that is life here on this farm in Pine Grove holler...

And just to top it off... Next weekend we have a bunch of suburbinits Northern Virgina folks who will trek to our farm for an anual azalea cuttin' exchange and groove on what it's like to live in an place of ecological balance...

BTW, I love those little green frogs that have camped out in our veggie garden... They are about 3/4 inch in size, are very peacefull, eat their weieght in bugs and are some of the mellowest of God's critters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:24 AM

"Godly" in "Green/Godly Gardening", OTS, refers to the idea that God created evolution, too; and I think it's bad to upset nuture's/God's balance by growing non-consumable exotic flora instead of natives in our gardens, etc.

What a crock. Appropriating science and other belief systems into your religion because it suits you to place your god above everyone else, regardless of whether they want to go or not. We see here a great working definition of hubris.

And such a silly rationale for planning a garden.

My organic guru points out regularly that the more blossoms you have around your veggie garden the more potential pollinators you attract. Plus it just plain looks great for the passers-by and visitors who find gardening to be a recreational contact sport.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:36 AM

I like the idea of having native plants, myself. Our area has some harsh conditions (heat, intense summer sun, and occasional drought - one of which we are in right now), and I'm thinking about seeing if our local extension office can tell me about native plants that would do well in our yard without needing any watering. Of course, most of our yard is eventually going to be vegetables and herbs, and I'm planning on planting some heat and drought tolerant roses for the rose hips that I'll use for tea (for vitamin C). But it might be nice to have some native flowering plants as well.

I also like the idea of incorporating spirituality into the practice of gardening. I've been using co-creative gardening practices for several years, and I've had very good results with them.

Here's some background information on co-creative gardening. The first gives some history and background on the two pioneering co-creative gardens, Findhorn, in Scotland, and Perelandra, in Virginia, USA. The second and third are links to Findhorn's website, and Perelandra's website...

http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/perelandra.html

http://www.findhorn.org/index.php

http://www.perelandra-ltd.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM

Some people seem to prefer easy targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

Yea, he seems to get away with abusing anyone with impunity. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:32 AM

(To think, for some, the greatest comback since Lazarus used to be Jesus!...)
I've heard that many cultivars have had the pollen, and other things benefitial to native fauna, bred out of them, in the name of pleasing (to humans) colours and forms. The gardening ideal presented in my opening post may, for many, be very difficult to reach, but I'm sure that it's good to, at least, lean toward it, as CC, e.g., is doing.
And to Robert, good to hear of those frogs, in particular, as I've also heard they are on the decline in many parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:23 AM

Probably shouldda left God out of your OP, WaV, and also considered that most serious gardeners already do try to strike a balance in their gardens, try to avoid invasive introduced species, and try to attract pollinators, and likely have flourishing compost heaps - so who are you addressing? People dead two hundred years ago who brought a thousand English plants, birds and bugs to NA? The very earthworms here are not native.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:27 AM

Let's see, we have Japanese Knotweed, Himalayan Balsam, Giant Hogweed, Collared Doves, Grey Squirrels, Coypu, Mink etc etc.
All non native species, and they are firmly established here, and flourishing in the wild.
Why don't you go out and eradicate them while you're at it?

G

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Megan L
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

You forgot white settlers :p

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

If you want to stretch the point, God himself planted non-native species everywhere........... =)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

If the theory about Gondwanaland is correct, then all species started off on the same piece of land, and evolved after the breakup.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:48 AM

He wants the Ur garden, everything put back where it started in his scheme of "the beginning."

It doesn't work that way. It can never happen. It's a waste of time to bludgeon gardeners about it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:12 PM

Taking a break from the tennis (it's raining at Wimbledon), mentioning God was in response to the needless dabate between the existence of God and evolution (i.e., God created it, too).
And some of those on your list JGM have indeed caused huge problems here, which people are now trying to fix; the Victorian plant-hunters were brave but mislead folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM

Me, I'm a tolerant gardener. I plant mostly tough old-fashioned perrennials (phloxes, wild-type geraniums, day-lilies, irises, mallows, Lily-of-the-valley, Peony) and a few self-seeding biennials (Sweet William, Foxglove, Forget-me-not, Evening Lychnis), then I allow wild stuff, even so-called weeds, a little space in my flowerbeds, like yarrow, asters, chickweeds. I allow Blackberry Bramble to arch over my sloped rock garden.

I don't so much have a lawn as I have grassy/white clover areas patched with mowed Hawkweed, Speedwell, and Plantain. I encourage Rabbitfoot Clover and Pineapple Weed in the driveway, and wild berry bearing plants around the edges wherever the trees will let them have enough light. I give a little nurture and the occasional trim to Indian pear, Nannyberry, Mountain Ash, Bayberry, where they grow, and let Leatherleaf, Junebush and various wild shrubs protect the lake shore. I erect inobtrusive barriers to human traffic around spots where I know Lady Slipper, Ghostflower, Twinflower, Starflower, Trillium will appear in spring.

Feels right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM

Hawk weed is my enemy ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM

John G MacK, if I didn't have hawkweed, I'd have about fifty percent less lawn. Fortunately, my property is entirely invisible from the road and from my neighbours, so no one is bothered by my un-grassy vistas. On the up side, I have very few dandelions, as the Hawkweed, though native, is much tougher and outcompetes them!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

Ya know if we were all created in God's image and we are His children who is to say that our work as hybridizers isn't the work of God???

But nevermind that for a minute...

I do have some problems with genetically altered organisms (GAO's) in that patents are held on certain DNA's and if Farmer A purchases GAO corn, for instance, and a bee flies thru Farmer A's farm and then to Farmer B and polinates Farmer B's corn with some of Farmer A's GAO polin then the holder of the GAO patent can sue Farmer B for using the GAO polin???

Now that is some crazy legalin' if I've ever seen it????

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 04:12 PM

This is a great website for an organization that is working to preserve native species in the US...

http://www.centerforplantconservation.org/

One of my big regrets is that I will never be able to see the forests and prairies of this country as people saw them a few hundred years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

Here's a bunch of links to native plant societies in various states in the US...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22native+plant+society%22&btnG=Google+Search

And here's the website for the native plant society for my state...

http://www.ncwildflower.org/

I've even discovered that there's a local chapter of the North Carolina Native Plant Society, whom I think I will be in touch with to get more information about how I can help preserve some of the native species of this area.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

Bee, around here yarrow is used in all kinds of gardens, esp. around commercial spaces. It grows well here and is often planted near Russian sage which is also drought tolerant, looks and smells pretty. I have two plants of it which have grown to over four feet already this year!:-)

I love dandelions and have made tincture from their roots. It's a very good remedy for several things. We don't have many in our yard this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:20 PM

More great links...

Going Native: Urban Landscaping for Wildlife with Native Plants

Why Go Native?

How To Go Native

Create Your Own Native Landscape

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:03 PM

Well, one thing that we do is move stuff from back in the forest to our own woods gardens... There are maiden hair fern, Christmas fern and about a dozen other ferns that grow back in the woods... Black kohash is also a wonderful plant that makes wonderful white plooms... And Indian cucumber makes fir a sweet little area in the woods... Twin leaf is rare but we have it... It dates back to Jefferson as Virginia wildflower... As does the wild hyacinth...

Back in Wes Ginny we had tons of May Apple... It was to the point of being invasive but I'm glad that some hitch-hiked in another plant because we have two now... And we also had the Jack-in-the-pulpits back in Wes Ginny... None made it down but a friend has 'um so we borrowed a couple of his... Trillium, now, we did bring from Wes Ginny and they love it here more than ever and have made tons of babies...

These are all purdy much natives... We have also gone to the top of the mountain and brought down so native azaleas which are doing very well...

BTW, Carol, if you ever visit us I'll take you back in the woods about a mile and other than the very ol' logging road we take to get there you get the real feeling that folks ain't been there in a very long time... It is quite undisturbed... Almost sirreal... The 1st time I found it I just plunked myself down in the middle of it and within 5 muinutes didcovered a small black snake sunning himself in an area where the sun could get thru... I looked beyond him a foot or so and discovered a ***pink lady slipper***, a native I had never seen and had to find in the books, and everywhere I looked there was something else wonderful... All within just a few feet of where I sat down...

Might of fact, I have learned over the years to stop and sit in the forest... It is amazing what you will see and experience all within just a few feet of wherever you might choose to sit... This is how I find morell mushrooms... I sit... And then I find one, then two and then 3 and, and, and...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:07 PM

Kat, white or pink tinged wild yarrow is exceedingly common here. You can buy brightly coloured cultivars from the garden places. I've never bothered, but every couple of years I end up with pastel wild ones that have obviously cross-pollinated with the fancy garden yarrows. I'll have to look up Russian sage.

I've frequently eaten young Dandelion leaves, and enjoyed a friend's dandelion wine on occasion. I actually think they are stunning looking flowers, especially when you see great big healthy ones with flowers almost three inches across.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:54 AM

Dandelion is an excellent spring tonic, rich in vitamins, calcium and iron. The roots are especially high in these vitamins and minerals and easily tinctured. The flowers can be battered and fried as fritters.

Dandelion is not "native."

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:18 AM

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of promoting 'native' species, it can only occurr with the correct environment. Due to climate changes and high population density (especially on our wee island - a.k.a. Britain) it is often not possible to promote the species we'd like to.

For example, I'd love to grow ferns in my garden and, on the whole, I have the right condirions that a lot of british ferns would reqire. However, as I live in the city, there's too much pollution to allow ferns to flourish.

Ultimately what we grow in our gardens is governed by the environment, about which, there is only so much we can do. The best way to ensure that we can keep growing and promoting any species is to keep a broad genetic stock from which to evolve from.

Just for interest's sake...

Why not adopt a variety of veg?

See if your garden can support some wild flowers

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:27 AM

I had a garden once where the main problem was bindweed, then I noticed these astonishingly beautiful moths for which, as it turned out, the bindweed was the natural habitat. After that, the bindweed wasn't a problem at all.

Have a look at http://ukmoths.org.uk/show.php?bf=1513

In England, dandelions are known as piss-a-beds or piss-flowers, owing to their diuretic qualities; in theory, the roots might be roasted & used to make coffee, but I can't, in all honesty, recommend it. As kids we would decorate our bodies with the white sap in the stems, which dries to a pleasing henna type stain. You can also also make dandelion clarinets from the stems by splitting the end into a double reed. Some call these dandelion oboes on account of the double reed, but the essentially parallel bore gives a sound more akin to clarinet-type instruments, and to those parallel bore instruments which do have double reeds, such as the duduk, and the Northumbrian bagpipe chanter.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

That's true, Janie, but great to know of the above interests and movements in native gardening over-the-pond. As suggested above, things have pleasingly moved that way here in England, too. I remember how, a couple of years ago, just one or two others and me received much strong criticism as we argued for native gardening on a BBC forum - but, browsing earlier this year, things had changed dramatically, with folks posting lists of natives and a head-gardening-presenter mentioning his hope to create an all-native garden.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

Well said, lady penelope.

I'm in the USA. My garden is a NWF certified wildlife habitat. It includes many cultivators of native species, as well as native plants I started from seeds collected in the wild. It also includes cultivators and plants from wild-gathered seeds of many non-native species that made their way to these shores by accident or by design from other places, then naturalized. It also includes deliberately developed hybrids and ornamentals from all parts of the globe, including a few hybrids that made themselves in my garden.

I do my research and stay away from invasive introduced species. I also happily grow and/or nurture non-invasive, non-native species that readily naturalized the meadows, trading paths, roadways and railways of this country that have enriched the herbal food and medicine chest, or which native species of fauna have embraced with enthusiasm. (And a few non-native species of fauna, such as the honey bee.) The USA is a big, big country, and many of the plants in my garden are native to North America, but are either not native to my region, or are uncommon in my region in a naturalized setting. That is because my region was dominated by hardwood forests until just a few centuries ago, and those forests are gone. Plants common on the prairies prosper in my urban, sunny garden, whereas I have virtually no deciduous shade to offer the regionally native species that once comprised the under-story. (I also let interesting weeds develop, sometimes to my regret.)

The idea of gardening with natives and with habitat restoration is a long accepted and promoted practice here in North America. Fortunately, not many are "nazis" about it here, as it would result in significant decline in biodiversity, given the reality of evolution and habitat change caused by human population growth. While I don't profess to know, I find it very difficult to believe that awareness of the value of native plants, and preservation or restoration of native habitats has not been recognized by informed communities of gardeners, foresters, environmentalists and ecologists in countries and regions across the globe contiginous in time with this interest and awareness of it's importance in North America.

I wonder, WAV, if the resistance that you believe you encountered on your UK forums to the promotion of native plants, was actually reaction to the holier-than-thou certainty that you know the way, the truth, the light, of your tone. There is no one way. Nature, and life, is about seeking balance, seeking the synthesis, exploring the dialectic. Nature is dynamic, not static. It will bite us on the ass in a heartbeat if we are not mindful of that, and may bite us even if we are. Adaptation is the name of the evolutionary game. Mindfulness is an adaptation human beings have evolved the capacity to use.   You are as responsible for acting and communicating mindfully as is the the the individual who mindlessly and ignorantly introduced kudzu to the southern USA from the orient.

We humans have the capacity, and therefore the responsibility to understand that our footprints have implications. But we are also part of nature and of the process of evolution, just as are the tides that washed coconuts and other palm nuts up onto the shores of the tropic and semitropic shores of the Americas, the stormwinds that blow birds across the sea to shit out an "alien" seed onto fertile ground, the Canada geese who decide to "not" fly north for the summer, and instead, breed on an inland waterway in North Carolina, or the Siberian hunter who crossed the icy bridge across the Bering Sea to eventually come to be called "Native American."

Let's all go determinedly native and kill off ourselves on every continent except Africa, the only place on earth where the human species has been confirmed to be native.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:07 PM

What, Janie said...

Strict native gardening is, ahhhhhhh, an exercise in futility... Species are spread naturally and with global warming climate zones will change and some stuff that used to grow well in certain areas won't do well anymore...

Yes, it is great to incorpoarte as much native stuff as possible but gardening strictly native is quite limiting... Around these parts, for instance, there is little that is evergreen and native... We have white pine and cedar... Well, there is nothing inherently wrong with white pine and cedar but these two evergreens leave a lot to be disired when there are so many other evergreens which love growing here, like azaleas, criptomeria, long needle pine, hemlock, umbrella pine, yews, etc... Why would I want to live in a place that has only two natives when I can have so much texture and color and shapes to surround myself with???

And, just for an added benefir, in planting those plants I am creating places for birds where thye white pines and cedars wouldn't have provided...

Yes to natives... No to gardens exclusive to natives...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:27 AM

Janie, you and I have known each other here for a long time and I have always enjoyed your posts. You're a 'Catter I know I can trust as your thoughts and opinions show your sincere interest and the intellect associated with it.


You have just outdone yourself.


Its obvious I think WAV is a complete horse's ass but your post says what I actually feel about him......meaning that zealots drive me nuts(:<))......Beautiful post Janie and exactly on point and to the point. Big Spaw hug comin' your way!

I do have one bone to pick though.......Is there no room in your garden for Kudzu?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:30 AM

"There is no one way"

There is with people like that.




But you go to jail afterwards...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:40 PM

Yup, WAV, Janie has nailed it. Your intial post came across, likely unintentionally, as if you were delivering Truth to the Ignorant masses, when, as you can see, most every gardener is well aware of environmental facts and the desireability of including natives and being careful of what exotics one plants in relation to wildlife and one's lifestyle.

Here in North America, we are awash in exotics, almost all of them from Britain, with a few Asian invaders tossed in for variety. Many have been here so long they act like natives and have become inportant for some birds and insects.

Most people think the much-loved Salt Rose, or Beach Rose, that grows in splendour, with big double fragrant pink blooms and big juicy hips, everywhere there is a little salt spray is a native, but its origins are in China and Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:07 PM

I wonder, WAV, if the resistance that you believe you encountered on your UK forums to the promotion of native plants, was actually reaction to the holier-than-thou certainty that you know the way, the truth, the light, of your tone.

I second Spaw and Bee. I don't think it was unintentional, however. There's a preachy element in the various posts I've perused from this member, which is why I don't read or post on his threads. I was lured into this one by the gardening topic, but repulsed by the dogma (not to be confused with spirituality).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

I wonder, WAV, if the resistance that you believe you encountered on your UK forums to the promotion of native plants, was actually reaction to the holier-than-thou certainty that you know the way, the truth, the light, of your tone.

That and I've developed a very srong dislike to Walkaboutsverse's English nationalism, as if being English is the only way to enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

I've been having some difficulty identifying some of the plant life in my yard because my plant keys mostly cover native plants. They do cover some introduced species, but there are a lot that are not covered. If anyone knows of any good plant identification websites that address introduced species in the US, a link would be appreciated.

(Apologies for interrupting the feeding frenzy with discussion of the thread topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:46 PM

Carol, there is, if I ever find it again, a huge imagebank of plant species in the US, including introduced species, but they are not separated out that way. I think, but am not sure, that it is connected to the US Department of Agriculture. You might look up their main site and see if there's a link.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:54 PM

Much obliged. I'll have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:10 PM

Carol, I think this is it.

http://plants.usda.gov/

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:13 PM

The USDA site looks interesing, although I don't see any way to key plants out using blossoms as well as other characteristics, which would be most helpful.

I was surprised to see Dodder listed as a noxious weed, considering there are quite a few species of Dodder that are native to the US. My guess is that the USDA site is more concerned with plants that interfere with agriculture than they are with preserving native species.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

Carol,

We also often had trouble identifying introduced plants down in the area where you live. The climate allows for plants from such a broad area of climate conditions that regional plant guides we had for most of the Eastern US and the Carribean didn't come close to covering everything we came across in our wanderings. Hope the site Bee linked to is helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

I find the USDA search page, which the Image Gallery link on the left hand column takes you to, is pretty helpful. Granted you can't search by blossom type, but a lot of other criteria is searchable. If you don't recognize the biological terms for different kinds of plants, take a few minutes to look up the meanings, as they usually mean something pretty simple.

The advantage of the site for me is the sheer number of plants you can search for - over 40,000, including shrubs, sub-shrubs and trees, which are often hard to identify.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:56 PM

I have some background in plant identification, having worked as an interpretive naturalist in my younger days, and having been a wildflower identification enthusiast ever since then.

I tried a couple of searches with parameters I thought would produce results, and they were not terribly specific but they didn't turn much up. I'll keep trying, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:35 AM

To illustrate my point about there being some RECENT change for the good in attitudes toward growing natives/exotics among English gardeners, about 3 years ago, Gardeners' World (BBC) got viewers to vote on what style of garden they'd like to see created at the show's site. And a "tropical garden" was the clear winner - the selected exotics grew lush to human eyes, but NOT to most native fauna.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:38 AM

WaV, I'd bet most serious or even casual gardeners don't bother responding to polls on television programs. People who respond to such polls are self selected, unrepresentative, and mostly reflect people who like interacting with their television. So that is hardly a viable bit of evidence for your belief that interest in and basic understanding of the importance of native gardening is recent.

Of course it would be nice if your television shows were more proactive in popularizing such trends - local gardening shows here have done so for at least a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:46 PM

I, quite simply, have better things to do with my time than 'interact' with my television, like actually getting out into the garden and getting my hands dirty, no I don't use gardening gloves. By 'native' fauna, I assume Walkaboutsverse is talking English yest again *yawn*

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

I thought you'd at least agree, Lord, that I do care about things beyond English soil, including the native flora and fauna in different lands - please see my life's work, e.g.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 05:45 PM

No thank you, I'm not English, I was born in Wales and still live here. Please don't bother with you English nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 11:29 PM

I had to give up on the USDA website. I couldn't narrow my search down enough to make it possible for me to search in the amount of time I have available for it, and I found out that I can take plant samples to my local extension office for plant identification, so I think I'll see what I can find out that way. But I appreciate the help.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:34 AM

To CarolC - I think Kew Gardens and/or the RHS (not that I'm a monarchist) offer a similar service on this side of the pond. And to LBK, on the other side of the dyke! - I've enjoyed several visits to your good nation, e.g...

Poem 65 of 230: NORTH WALES

"Hills meeting sea"
    Proclaims to me
"Good scenery."

And it's views of North Wales,
    Both sides of the train-rails,
From which this notion hails.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 07:29 AM

Lookit here Jerkwad......Who y'all callin' a dyke? You be some kinda' asshole homophobe aintcha'?   Yeah.... I knew it.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM

Offa's Dyke, i.e., Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

And here was me thinking this was about an undiscovered 10cc track

Get it? Eh? Get it?

Oh, hang on, Green, not Creme?

Ahhhh

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

ell fortunately Wales doesn't really care what you think of it or its people, Walkaboutsverse, so, please keep you patronising attitude to yourself

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 12:39 PM

So if somebody says they prefer England and English culture, that's not ok. And if they say they also enjoy other countries (or regions) and their cultures, that's not ok, either. Is it simply the fact of being English that people don't approve of?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:04 PM

Erm, actually I think it's being told what constitutes being 'english' by someone with a very personal and specific definition of such.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM

Could it be that those living within England who wish to keep the kingdom together are actively keeping English culture down? Tony Blair, born in Scotland, said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...I say, we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time, and with, rather, eco-travel and fair-trade with other nations, etc

.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM

Walkaboutsverse's has an extremely patronising, 'I know best because I'm English' attitude, somewhat akin the Victorians attitude to the 'great unwashed heathens' in overseas lands during the high points (if you can call them that) of The British Empire. "Tiger hunting in Injah at all that!"

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:44 PM

I could be wrong about this, but the impression I get is that what is being advocated is to allow Scotland and Wales (and presumably, Northern Ireland) to be their own countries, and have England be just England on its own. That doesn't sound patronizing to me. It sounds rather more humble than what I'm accustomed to hearing (reading) from English people.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM

Good Lord?! - I just gave a strong indication that I hate imperialism, then, very next post, you accuse me of supporting it.
To CC - as you may have heard, there is going to be a referendum on independence for Scotland soon, which I, for one, fully support.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 02:17 PM

Just what the hell does "eco-travel" have to do with anything?!

I stand by what I said, Walkaboutsverse

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:18 PM

I have no problem with promoting traditions from England. I have a problem with someone telling me what is to be premoted because it is 'english'. A subtle difference I grant you, but one I think is important.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:28 PM

Seems to me Wales has an ally in the form of the person being criticized in this thread (not that one person can really do much of anything except give an opinion) It seems a shame that this is not being understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,JD
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:49 PM

WAV,

I'd really like independance for Mercia. It's a more 'traditional' country.

Will you support my campaign?

JD

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Wessex Liberation Front
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

Can we rely on your support in our fight for a free and independent Wessex?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

Carol - there have been many apologists for WAV. He seems to alienate them fairly rapidly.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 05:52 PM

No - but, joking apart, I genuinely believe that, given all the conquest and immigration that has occurred over the centuries, the best way FROM NOW ON is this nationalism with eco-travel (i.e., visiting other nations via "green"/eco. travel) and fair-trade between nations, via a stronger U.N.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:09 PM

I still don't see what 'eco-travel' has to do with anything, apart from an attempt on your part to promote a rather dubious nationalism. If I were a more suspicious person, which I'm not, I would begin to wonder what you mean by the best way FROM NOW ON. You're not, I hope, refering to the restricting of immigrants into Britain are you...?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:16 PM

It's so easy to pick on people who never fight back.

What I see happening is one poster is being attacked, mostly not for what this person is saying, but rather, for stuff of their own that other people are projecting onto this person. I'm taking a very different meaning from what I am reading from this poster than many other people are taking. I see this as probably a result of some weaknesses in communication on the part of the one being attacked, along with what appears to be an eagerness on the part of some people to gang up on one person and collectively abuse that person.

If I remember correctly, someone has compared this to playground bullying, and I would have to say that I agree with that characterization.

(I am not allowed to specifically refer to individual posters, so I have to couch my language somewhat obliquely.)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

I asked a question, I'd like an answer.

What has eco-travel to do with anything? It's simple enough!

Apparently, I've found out in my researches in the Mudcat forum threads, the instigator of this particular thread is very prone to not answering a direct question, of which mine is the current example. Thus, if I were a person prone to being suspicious I would begin to wonder what he/she was about.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:57 PM

Some people see discussion and other people see attack.

Goes round and round here at the 'cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:29 PM

Yeah. The attackers see discussion and several neutral third parties see attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:21 PM

"Neutral third party" - now that deserves a horse laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:13 AM

I'm not the only one who has commented on the attacks. Several other people have as well. One of them even admitting to not agreeing with anything the one being attacked has said (this was privately - the person who said that also said that because of the way some people are being attacked here, s/he was seriously considering not posting in the Mudcat any more, and that person hasn't made any posts since having sent me that message).

In my case, I wasn't particularly aware of any of the posts by the person being attacked until I saw people ganging up on this person here in this thread. At that time, I checked out other threads this person had posted to and noticed a consistent pattern of abuse, including somebody with editing powers editing the person's posts (right in the post itself) to change the spelling of words for the purpose of ridiculing the person; for instance, changing the spelling of "Pennine" to "penile", and "surfeit" to "surtit", and some others. This person has been called a jerk wad and a horse's ass here in this thread (and a few other things in a post that's not there any more), and a buttfuck, dumbass, shitforbrains, an English jack-off, and quite a few other things in other threads.

Other people may feel ok about either jumping in and adding to the abuse, or remaining silent while others are doing it, but I have difficulty living with myself if I remain silent when I see stuff like this going on, especially considering the person being attacked, whose only offense has been having opinions that some people don't like and expressing them in ways some people don't like, has never attacked anyone or called anyone any names, and has been nothing but gracious in response to the numerous attacks directed at this person, never once responding in kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:30 AM

CarolC - I agree that some parties here have degenerated to name calling and agree that this is purile behaviour best left in the playground. It certainly doesn't put Mudcat in a good light if posters think it part of reasonable debate.

However, I can understand the frustration that quite a few people feel when attempting to enter into discussions with WAV. WAV simply does not discuss or enter into exchanges of ideas. He simply and persistently promotes his rather narrow viewpoints (IMO) and refutes any statements he sees as being contrary to his. If you have looked at the various threads WAV has started or posted to, you will see he has a specific agenda that has nothing to do with rational argument and debate and everything to do with self promotion.

While I'm with that American feller and believe that people should be able to express their opinions whether I agree with them or not, WAV insists on 'flag waving' and even appears to take a martyrish satisfaction at people taking pot shots at him. So I'm less inclined to be all that sympathetic towards him when people do exactly that.

I do think that people should not get into abusive slanging matches though. Apart from being just plain bad behaviour, it's fairly obvious that WAV will not 'give' on many points of discussion. Best leave him to his opinions in these cases, I say. Attempting to 'win' an argument with him will acheive nothing and will merely fuel his martyr complex.

I have been following this and another thread in the hope that interesting discussions would occurr - and they have. But I must say that I think they have occurred inspite of WAV and not because of his contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:47 AM

........evolution created god??

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:56 AM

Also a lot of people become infuriated when someone tells them how they should be practising something they have committed a large part of their lives to, and when a lot of good advice is given in the other direction, the response is ... well just a bizarre refusal to listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: mandotim
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:22 AM

Oh well; I said I wouldn't post again, but times change. Please refer to these two posts. Critique WAV response I have tried repeatedly to get WAV to engage in debate about some of his more repellent views, but the posts quoted are just one example of how difficult this is. His response to a considered critique of his views and manner of expressing them was to tell me that I was in a terrible mood (I wasn't, but professionally I was concerned about his state of mind) and that he hates imperialism (which I didn't mention). I repeat; there is a psychological payoff for WAV when people engage (or try to) in the depressingly futile arguments he starts. (Lady P, in a great post, is on the right lines when she talks about 'martyrish satisfaction; see above) He then prolongs the issue (and thereby the payoff) by refusing to answer direct questions and changing the subject, which provokes considerable frustration among those who actually know what they are talking about. The only strategy that does any good here is to deny the payoff by ignoring his more extreme and irritating pronouncements. Note; I am not saying 'shun him'. When he starts to post things that are not designed to get a contrary reaction, he should be encouraged into reasonable and rational debate.
My standpoint here is not personal irritation, although it would be easy to feel that way; I think that WAV will benefit from the approach suggested.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:36 AM

God created evolution, too, that is

Given that evolution wasn't an issue until Darwin first mooted the notion in publication as recently as 1859, one might be tempted to ponder if God didn't create secular humanism too. If God did indeed create evolution, then he also created the mechanisms whereby the potentials for hybridisation are at last realised, and exploited, even down to a genetic level. If God has determined the dexterous inclinations of green-fingered humanity (still hunting and gathering after all these years!), then everything is both Green and Godly, according the ultimate and divinely appointed ecology postulated by Christians whose hearts, after all, are set upon the divine hereafter rather than any worldly concerns per se. Creationists would no doubt disagree, but is Intelligent Design really any better? I think, in this instance, perhaps not.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

I see gardening in a very different way. To me it is about connecting with the land, with the miracle of growing living things and acknowledging the beauty of nature and her infinite variety. It's about green things, earthy things and the spirits of wood and stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

100!!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:00 AM

Wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:32 AM

We no longer have a garden; the new place has a back yard (note to Americans, a British back yard is not a garden, rather a concrete space to the rear of the house whose function is entirely utilitarian) so some potential there for pots, containers etc. Indoors, a few house plants; my treasured Ficus elastica, a couple of Dracaena sanderiana in the bathroom, along with the Spathiphyllum wallisii we bought at Ikea in Warrington a couple of weeks back together with the Dracaena fragrans and Dracaena marginata that seem happy enough on the kitchen windowsills. Still, early days!

When we did have a garden I delighted in Nasturtiums and Sweet Peas (taking my inspiration from Mr Polly?), Hollyhocks and Snapdragons, Lavenders and Rosemarys; and planted hedges of Northumbrian hawthorn which were only just beginning to blossom when we moved out; also planted a single Rowan tree which, in the five years we lived there, grew from a two foot stick to a mighty 20 foot or more - they don't call it quickbeam for nothing! Pride of the garden was our Japanese Sakura, especially at blossom time, and the Honeysuckle we grew over the remains of the Cyprus took down when we moved in, leaving a 5 foot stump for Clematis, but only Honeysuckle took. Daffodils too, numerous varieties, and a glorious Elder, with the whole front of the house (at times) entirely obscured by Hedera helix. Our garden was certainly Green, but in no way was it Godly, rather a purposeful Gnostic Wilderness abiding by Blake's maxim that where man is not, nature is barren. As with WAVs opening post, we had rotting logs to encourage wildlife and our lawn was but a single roll of carefully manicured turf with a rather splendid cast iron sign which read KEEP OF THE GRASS (sic) bought in a pound shop in Sunderland.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:16 AM

PS - Also in the offing were a couple of Pyracanthas with which to interweave with the Ivy; looking pretty good too, until we decided to up sticks. Meanwhile, any advice on container gardening in a sheltered SW facing back yard most welcome; not much sun though... I notice my neighbours Hedera helix creeping over the back wall; I dare it won't find too my discouragement in this pursuit.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

Even in a yard you can grow piles in containers - even veg!

Pulses can do really well, I got mangetout, runner beans all fruiting well currently

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

The veg, Mr Happy, and the Hedera helix, IB, are music to my ears.
Without any martydom, Mondotim and our Lady P., this plant is no longer with us (but I still have Hedera growing from a pot, up a pole, in both my flat's south-facing kitchen and lounge)...

Poem cum song/chant 141 of 230: IN A SMALL POT

I like Acers
    But rent a flat,
So mimic one
    In a small pot:

As for starters,
    I made a plat
Of ivy run
    Out from one spot.

To this basis
    (All round the mat,
In a trunk-bun)
    Dirt - soaked a lot.

Without traces
    (Not got down pat),
A moss-lawn spun
    And short-ferns shot.

And, like Acers,
    Branches have sat -
Wirework done -
    Toward the pot.

Trimmed with scissors,
    This foliage-hat
Thrives in the sun
    Of my sill-plot.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

Maybe I'm too late this year, but it's my intention to plant spuds (non-native, but highly traditional) in an old dustbin. This was the trick of old; cover your seed spuds with a suitable loamy soil and once the shoots came through, cover that too, every few inches or so, until you end up with a bin full.

Er - do you actually have a garden, WAV?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM

Years ago, an elderly friend spent some time in hospital. He was an obsessive lawn trimmer, loved and pampered his little spot of green, and really worried that the lawn would be a mess when he got home. His children one day arrived at the hospital to visit carrying a tray bearing one perfect green sod, and a small pair of scissors for him to trim it. Much laughter ensued - and he did trim and water it, meticulously, adding the sod to his yard when he got home.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

My question has been answered by not being answered by the instigator of this thread, therefore I am assuming that 'eco-travel' has nothing to do with anything, as I was beginning to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:20 AM

Insane Beard, a lot of people on/near the coast here collect eelgrass from the shore, heap it up, and plant potatos in it - they end up with nice clean, well shaped potatos. The eelgrass is used as mulch and fertilizer as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:24 AM

Unless the instigator of this thread has a pile of dirt in his/her spare bedroom (assuming there is a spare bedroom), then, no, he/she doesn't have a garden, he/she lives in a flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:39 AM

On the subject of "professionals" being concerned with people's state of mind... any real mental health professional ought to know that it's extremely unprofessional and unethical to make mental health assessments without permission from the one being assessed, and doing it publicly, no less (!!!). People who do stuff like that ought to have their professional licenses revoked. I can't think of a more egregious form of abuse than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:49 AM

I don't agree with the assertion that this person doesn't respond to the points made by others, or discuss the issues with those who respond to their posts. I see someone who sometimes disagrees with what others post, and who sometimes accepts the points made by others, and who even sometimes accepts criticism and indicates an intent to try to do better. But I don't understand the idea that people expect this one individual to capitulate to every point they make, and that they are entitled to treat this person however they like if the person doesn't. I see this sort of expectation as more of an indication of a problem than anything the person being attacked has done or is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 12:03 PM

*sigh* Having back-tracked through past threads created by the instigator of this thread, I find that I am not the first person to posed the question, "what does eco travel have to do with the subject?" I also find that the response was exactly the same, no response at all, no answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 12:06 PM

Eco Tourism (eco travel)

Seems like a very good idea to me. In the context of this thread, it looks to me like it's a part of an overall philosophy of trying to minimize one's harmful impact on the earth. I completely agree with it as an approach to living on the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 12:14 PM

In the context of this thread yes, in the context of the other threads it has no bearing at all. You have responded, not the instigator of this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 12:17 PM

So what? Nobody is obligated to respond to anything anyone else says here. There isn't a rule about that in the Mudcat. There is, however, a rule about personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 12:19 PM

In the context of other threads, btw, it's still applicable, if what is being discussed is appreciation of other cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 12:48 PM

Yes - "eco-tourism" is the more common term, thanks CC; and I'd much rather that, along with fair-trade, between nations than yet more conquest/imperialism and economic-immigration. (And, as I've also said, I think the Victorian plant-hunters were brave but misled folk.)
To IB and LBK, I (a "he", LBK) don't have a garden - but, although I've never owned a property, I've had access to garden space in both Sydney and Manchester...

Poem 112 of 230: FROM AN ECCLES FLAT - SPRING 2000

The bedroom window's southerly views
    Contained allotters paying their dues -
All kinds of veg. brought to fruition,
    And youngsters receiving tuition;
Starlings and sparrows I'd often see -
    On a roof or a nearby tree;
And, in a distant poplar perched high,
    The large twiggy nest of a magpie;
In spring, daisies would yellow the floor -
    Matched by Forsythias, grown next door;
Behind terraces, a moony crest -
    The Dome of the new Trafford complex;
And the moon itself, in the right spot,
    Would light the night's clouds up quite a lot.

The kitchen window's northerly views
    Included an agent selling news;
A butcher struggling with position -
    Much sunlight aimed at his nutrition;
And a popular English chippie -
    Mashed peas and red sauce on top, for me;
White gulls dotting a sombre grey sky,
    Plus light- and large-aircraft flying by;
Walkers and traffic would make a roar -
    At peak travel hours all the more;
Handsomely-set skies toward the west
    As the day's sun took its nightly rest;
And a bucket-pond and ivy plot,
    That, on a shoestring, I loved a lot.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

P.S: as for spuds, to chit or not to chit..?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: mandotim
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:17 PM

CarolC; I said I was qualified, I didn't say anything about whether I was still in practice. Had I still been governed by the rules of the profession I left some years ago, I would have agreed with you. Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully; I have tried repeatedly to engage in meaningful discussion with WAV about his views, without success; indeed, I was accused of 'being in a terrible mood'. I have expressed my distaste for his more extreme views, but the only personal comment I have made is to express concern about his state of mind, and to suggest a way of responding which, imho, will help WAV.
Regarding WAV's willingness to engage; ask him for his views on repatriating non-native people, or cultural segregation, and see how far you get.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:27 PM

There you have someone else who has engaement problems with the instigator of this and other threads. Indeed, I'm wondering exactly what the said instigator means by English culture?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM

I don't think one can say he or she is qualified to practice if he or she hasn't got a license to practice. In fact, I think it can be said that one is definitely not qualified to practice if he or she doesn't have a license to practice.

The terrible mood comment came after the profoundly abusive amateur mental health assessment that was inflicted on the one being attacked. I would characterize that response as being about as mild and gracious as a person could possibly give after such abuse.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions, and it is incredibly arrogant for anyone to think they are entitled to abuse others for having opinions they don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: s&r
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM

"Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions, and it is incredibly arrogant for anyone to think they are entitled to abuse others for having opinions they don't like.!"

Er...Yes

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Please leave off the personal attacks BatK.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:44 PM

Mandotim,

I'll make no comment on your qualifications in psychology other than to point out that calling someone a NAZI and lecturing about them rather than addressing them directly is highly unlikely to result in "meaningful discussion". I would expect that even a retired mental health professional would know that.

Perhaps you should turn your talents to a more pressing manner. What is causing all of you enlightened, educated, intelligent people to continue to attack this man once he fails to take your advice. Do you all believe that abuse will work where reason does not?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:44 PM

A wonderfulway to silence criticism isn't it? Well never mind, I do have another arena inwhich to continue my questioning

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: mandotim
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:45 PM

Carol; calling someone who practised for many years an 'amateur' is a little abusive, don't you think? I notice you haven't answered my point about the futility of trying to engage with WAV about his more extreme views. Is non-engagement contagious?
By the way; I'm in the UK, and the rules about 'qualified' and 'licensed' are very different in our less litigious society. However, perhaps you can point to the part where I said I was not licensed? I merely said that I no longer practice. On second thoughts, don't bother. You have clearly made up your mind about WAV, and so have I.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:54 PM

If one is not licensed to practice professionally, then any time one practices, one does it as an amateur. So, no, I don't see it as abusive to say so. There was a comment made about no longer being governed by the rules of the profession. If that's not an admission that one is no longer licensed, I'd like to know what it does mean. The rules of the profession exist to protect people from charlatans and hacks, and people who think it's ok to make mental health assessments without permission, in public, and without adequate information.

I don't see why anyone thinks anyone else is obligated to be willing to be "engaged with" for any reason whatever. I think there definitely are mental health terms that apply to people with those kinds of expectations.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:58 PM

Oh, go ahead with the personal attacks. Seems it's what most folks here want.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:59 PM

I agree whole-heartedly with mandotim, and yes, he said he was no longer practicing, which is, indeed a massive difference to not being licenced. I see nothing wrong with wanting an answer to a question, and it has nothing to do with 'mental health issues'

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:03 PM

Asking questions is a far cry from personal attacks, the instigators life, interests me not at all , it's his/her beliefs and tenets that are somewhat dubious, as his/her other threads have perfectly illustrated, and as other posters have also pointed out. So you see I am not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:20 PM

There's a huge difference between asking a question, and making a mental health assessment - in public, without permission, without adequate information, and without the required licensing. One is normal conversation, and the other is a personal attack and also highly unprofessional and unethical. Especially if the one making the mental health assessment is telling others how to behave towards the person he or she has "assessed".

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:16 AM

I'm in the process of moving from my sunny yard to a heavily shaded lot, filled with oak trees. The real estate promo on the place touted it as "park like," meaning the lawn has been carefully raked year after year to keep the moisture-retaining mulch and humus of fallen leaves from killing the shade-tolerant grass which is the only other thing growing under the trees. Three cedar picnic tables, a couple of grill pits, and a garbage can secured to a post with a chain, and it would like like a rest stop on the interstate. The trees certainly do suck up the little available moisture. I'll take a year or so to observe, get a sense of the place, and observe the light before I do any significant gardening or landscaping, but this fall, the leaves are staying on the property. If I can let humus happen for a year or so,helped with some compost and mulch, I can see it being a lovely shade garden, dominated by native species.

I'm imagining both of the cohoshes, native hydrangea, rhodys, native azalea, solomon seal, galax, foam flowers, mayapple, native geraniums, wood asters, wood anemones, toothworts, marsh marigolds, spring beauties, trillium, trout lilies, bloodroot, boneset, aruncus, goldenseal, maybe some false foxgloves (gotta research that one, I think they grow in symbiosis with oak, but don't remember, and also haven't keyed out the oaks,) hearts-aburstin', native vibernums. Plus some non-natives like hellebore, japanese anemone, pulmonaria. I'm even wondering if I could get a little ginseng to grow.   May as well dream big while I wait to see what develops as the habitat is allowed to develop and evolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 12:56 AM

Mertensia! I'd think I had died and gone to heaven if I could grow mertensia.

Probably too hot and too dry - but a girl can hope....

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

To Mandotim - okay, you were not just "in a terrible mood"; you are, rather, someone who disagrees with my views and is prepared to use dirty and ridiculous tactics in opposition - e.g., putting words in my mouth, and calling me a martyr before telling us all that you're never coming back to post here! There's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use - I think I compete reasonably fairly and peacefully for what I see as the best ways forward for humanity.
To Janie: observing the aspects/light, and the rest of what you said, sounds good to me, and I hope it goes well. I know enough of gardening here and in Australia to know that growing an impressive native garden can be a real challenge in both countries - but it's a good challenge that I hope more-and-more folk take up.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 06:55 AM

I... don't have a garden

So how does this in any way qualify you to throw the rule book to those who do have a garden, but might wish to do things their own way, i.e. according their own feelings and opinions on such things born from many years of hands-on experience in the loving nurture of their precious soil, native species or not? Just take a look around you, see what people have done, from the most humble of window boxes or hanging baskets to the quarry gardens of Belsay Hall, or the walled garden of Wallington. Would you say these people are wrong in doing so? Perhaps you would, but only because your parameters of possibility, in this as in other things, are so narrow as to be inverted.

Otherwise, there exists, I believe, software for a virtual garden that may be suitably tailored for the native species you seem to have so little experience of. You really should get out more, WAV - see something of the world; mabe get yourself out with the BTCV for some real hands-on conservation camaraderie! I'd say you can't understand hawthorn until you've laid a mile of anciently neglected hedge in the driving sleet and snow. And if you really do hate those non-native ornamentals that have so ran riot in the British countryside, then a week of rhododendron bashing will do your soul the power of good.

Is the Chopwell Forest Festival on this year? That's always a merry lark, with lots of music & storytelling & woodland crafts & other such arboreal goings on - check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 11:11 AM

At some times in my life I've had a garden and then later on I didn't. I didn't forget everything I knew from the times I did have a garden during the times I didn't.


I'm experimenting with various uses of amaranth (a plant native to the Americas) as a source of protein. If I can find enough ways to incorporate it into my diet, I might try to grow enough of it to be my main source of protein. I feel that would be a good way to decrease my environmental footprint.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 04:22 PM

Thanks for saying that for me, CarolC - IB, perhaps in his desperation to be better than the re-pat., either didn't read or chose to ignore that I have gardened in the past; I've also read and watched quite a lot of gardening material. And, as for "You really should get out more, WAV - see something of the world", IB - how about say 40 countries, on a shoestring, plus the Rothbury Traditional Music Festival, today? Nothing wrong with being competitive, but that's stupidly over-competitive language, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 04:41 PM

Been in 40 countries eh? And?

There's a really big difference in doing that and "getting out more", the latter requires actually absorbing and understanding what you see hear, feel, experience. Insane Beard is right, some experience in conservation is a wonderful experience, and before you say it, I don't JUST mean your so-called "native" plants (whatever that means.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:37 PM

Yes, LBK, there is, indeed, more to conserve than just native plants.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:53 AM

but that's stupidly over-competitive language, frankly

Sorry, dear boy - didn't mean to sound competitive, or in the least bit better than you, just offering some timely advice based on my own experiences in such matters, paltry as they may be! After all, I haven't been out hedge-laying with the BTCV for some 25 years now, but would still heartily recommend it as a way of connecting with nature at its most fundamental & un-Godly, tangled in such lovingly violent dialogue with a hedge whilst wielding a vicious bill-hook, and all this talk of layers and pleachers which still reverberate in my fevered dreaming.

I haven't been at the Rothbury Festival for a while either, not since 1991 when I was placed third in a Traditional Unaccompanied Song competition with my rendering of Poor Old Horse (the Owld Grye Song) having been coerced into taking part by my friend Liz, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered, not being one for competing, though I always love to hear the higher calibre of traditional singers often found in such a context. I still have my trophy though, proudly, if somewhat ironically, displayed on the bathroom shelf.

Bringing these two elements together, if I may... Last year I ran into the redoubtable Burt Hunter at the Chopwell Forest Festival, managing his Traditional English Hedge, and in conversation it emerged that he not only remembered me entering the Rothbury competition in 1991, but also remembered what song I sang! Needless to say I accepted this as something of a blessing as, to me, Burt Hunter is the heart and soul of all things traditional, from Morris Dancing to Woodland Management and all points between and beyond. My wife still tells the tale of being pulled up to dance by Burt at a ceilidh in Town Hall in Durham during the Durham Folk Party during her student days and experiencing a giddying high akin, no doubt, to that felt by the whirling dervishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 07:24 AM

Enjoyed reading most of that, IB (B for beard NOT boy), as I enjoyed my yesterday at Rothbury - see The Weekly Walkabout, if you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 09:27 AM

Have you ever been in any of those 40 countries, discounting Australia and the UK, for more than a month?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

You've already asked, and I've already answered, that on another thread...remember now, V.?...if not, please go browsabout with your mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM

The answer, then, is no?
Not quite as impressive, it's kind of like seeing the British Museum in a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

I was in India, where I used a 1 month pre-booked rail pass, for more than a month...

Poem 21 of 230: BOMBAY PORTER

Awaiting a train in Bombay,
    I was shocked into dismay;
For a well-dressed man, built strongly,
    Was walking, his hands set free,
Ahead of a bony porter -
    Heavy case on head, no quarter.

Shortly later, I watched again
    As out from the rich-man's train
Came the scrawny struggling porter -
    His thin back now much tauter;
For he writhed as he stretched his loins -
    After a quick count of few coins.


Poem 22 of 230: HIGH HOUSEBOAT

When in India,
    I headed north
For the Himalaya.

Up, by train then bus,
    To Kashmir -
It was much cooler, thus.

Stayed there on Dahl Lake,
    By Srinagar -
For my tight-budget's sake.

'Twas a houseboat room:
    Run down, low cost -
But there I felt no gloom.

A solo mother -
    She had four kids -
Was the floor-manager.

At dawn, her daughter -
    The eldest one -
Brought me food and water.

I washed with bucket,
    Ate scrambled eggs -
As good as one could get.

From Dahl Lake's shoreline
    To the houseboats,
Canoe trips run just fine.

Day-tripped to Gulmarg,
    And played a round -
As always, kept the card.

It is the highest
    Green-kept golf-course,
And sure is quite a test!

Played another course,
    At Srinagar -
And it, too, I endorse.

For "with-dependants,"
    I should, though, add -
War, sadly, still rants.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 01:53 PM

It's impressive to me. I've only been inside of 2 countries in my entire life. Of course, each of them is equal to several smaller countries in terms of size.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 02:42 PM

Are they the U.S.A. and Canada, Carol?...just watching a grasscourt tennis tournament from Newport, Rhode Island, live via satellite.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 02:56 PM

The USA and Canada.

I was born in Rhode Island and lived there until I was about 9 1/2 years old. It was the best place I ever lived. We lived a couple of hundred feet from the bay with a lot of wildness around us. Where we are now is the second best... we're about 10 miles from the ocean now, almost in the center of our city, and surrounded by a lot of wildness (two meandering creeks and a big cemetary). We have alligators and bears in the creeks and woods surrounding our neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:10 PM

So do the bears shit in the creek too.........or just the woods?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:47 PM

Possibly. And the gators might shit in the woods. After they eat the neighborhood dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 07:33 PM

There's quantity, and then there's quality.

I've been to Canada a couple dozen times, mostly to Vancouver and Victoria, B.C.   Once to eastern Canada (Kingston, Ontario, a few days in Toronto. Been through Winnipeg on the train. Up the St. Lawrence River on a day-trip). Once to Mexico. If you can consider six or seven hours in Tijuana to be Mexico.

I've been to several states in the United States; born in California, lived most of my life in Washington State, spent a year and a half in Denver. Visited people in Oregon, Montana, Kansas, Nebraska, Michigan, Nevada. Driven through Indiana, Wyoming, Idaho, and a number of other states. Spent time in Chicago (mostly in the airport between planes). Once my wife and I were driving around Omaha, Nebraska when, just for the hell of it, we crossed a bridge over the Missouri river and drove around in Iowa, about 20 minutes altogether, just so I could say I have been there, then back over the bridge to Nebraska.

I've met people from all over the world: from all parts of the British Isles, from France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Holland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Turkey, Israel, Yemen, Egypt, Eritrea, Kenya, South Africa, Iran, India, China, Japan, Viet Nam, Bali, Australia, Peru, Brazil, Argentina. . . .

I spent the vast majority of this time with my eyes and ears open, talking, asking, absorbing. Not hunched over, scribbling in a notebook.

"If this is Tuesday, this must be Belgium!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM

Spawzer,

Some bears do shit in the woods while some wait unitl they are sniffin' 'round the back of my farm and take a bear staeamer right where I wasn't lookin'...

Like they say, "Shit happens"... I think a bear wrote that... Butt, what I know???

B~

BTW, I realize that this converstaion has kinda wandered but I'm still a believer in growin' whatever will grow... If it says 6-B then bring it on... Well, unless it's invasive and in that case, let me think on it... Some "invsaive" plants ain't all that invasive...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 08:02 PM

A guy I know spent several months traveling around in England. I asked him if he'd seen Westminster Abbey, Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, Big Ben, London Bridge, and outside of London, Stonehenge, Glastonbury Abbey, famous castles, historical landmarks? Kew Gardens? The Victoria and Albert Museum?

"No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and no."

"So, what did you see?"

"Oh, lotsa old stuff. But say! Did you know they drink their beer warm there?"

Travel can broaden one. But in this case, only his beer-gut.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 09:55 PM

LOL Don.......Reminds me of a story.

My friend and I were down at Cumberland Falls and had been hiking far down the gorge below the falls. We were in our late 20's and enjoyed the awesome and wonderful flora and fauna and the amazing rock formations. Its a truly beautiful place in the Appalachian foothills of southern Kentucky and I used to spend many a fine day in and around there.

We were approaching "civilization" again only a few hundred yards below the falls and came upon a middle aged couple. The wife looked exasperated and I guess she was as she asked, "Is there anything else to see down that way beside the rocks and the woods and the river?"

Matt and I just kinda' stared at her and then at each other and Matt replied in that wonderful Kentucky drawl of his, "No M'am......Ahm real sorry budda reckon that's about all there is."


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:29 AM

""Oh, lotsa old stuff. But say! Did you know they drink their beer warm there?"

That's because we like to be able to taste it : )

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:06 AM

I prefer mead, myself, Stigweard and Don. And to Carol - never been, but seems a good place where you live; the main way I know of Carolina is through the singing of James Taylor; how long have you lived there?
I also prefer living in a city (Newcastle upon Tyne), and visiting smaller places in the counties, such as Rothbury, for the trad. music festival, last weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

I've never actually tried mead, but I'm a big fan of the Ales of our Islands.

Interestingly, when we went to NYC some years ago on our first night we ended up in a bar which was owned my a microbrewery and had some of the best bitter I'd drunk that year.

I never realised there was such a big real ale movement in the states, and (if you ignore the tasteless widdle that the likes of Anheuser-Busch and Coors make) the standard of beers is excellent, although they can be very hoppy indeed. Heck, I even managed to cop for some bottles of great lager brewed by that fellow in Brooklyn in our local Tescos in Macclesfield!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:23 AM

I'm no connoisseur, Stigweard, but at one of my local (for folk) pubs, The Cumberland Arms, they are. E.g., they had a beer festival recently, and it's also the only place I've found that has my beloved Lindisfrarne mead (made from honey, I think); otherwise, I settle for Guinness or, less often, vodka and tonic.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:16 AM

I have tried several lindisfarne products, all of them foul.

I thought you would be championing real ale WAV, there are hundreds of microbreweries across the UK, there whould be several local to you, some might even do a stout that would be delicious in comparison to Guiness.

Beer - yum times.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:29 AM

Lindisfarne mead is very nice and you can get it in odd places around Britain. I think it's a tad over priced though and as I prefer my mead to be less sweet (I know it's made from honey but it can vary wildly in how sweet you can make it) I tend to drink other makes. My favourite is Ty Brethyn meadery's lemon mead. Very dry and wonderfully light.

I once met an avid amateur brewer who made a fantastic straight mead and also an incredible blackcurrant mead. It's a shame he lived in deepest Cornwall (I'm based in London). But it's amazing how many places make mead now. Over the last 15 years it's steadily been making more appearences, especially from places that already brew other beverages like wine and cider. It's lovely to go round trying them all!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:41 AM

I think they may also have a blackcurrant mead at the abovementioned pub, LP. To Joe - if you know of an English stout that I should find around these parts, pray tell me and I shall ask for it. I don't mind the local brown ale, by the way, but do prefer the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:50 AM

I had a pint of Honey Porter in Friday night in my local (before I got waylaid by the Pale Rider from Kelham Island in Sheffield - wonderful). Not a cloying as it sounds as the honey adds a touch of sweetness to the dark malts and gives the pint bags of depth and character. 4.6%.

Black Pig is another (named after Captain Pugwashes' ship), as is Entire and most breweries seem to do porters and stouts these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:59 AM

http://www.jarrowbrewery.co.uk/

They seem to do an irish style stout, and I guess they are near you? Possibly wont have the stout at this time of year though.

The great thing about proper beer is the variety, that you can go to any decent pub (in my opinion, to be decent, a pub should have at least one handpump of good beer) and may find beers that you have never tasted before. From sweet rich porters to malty bitters, light and hoppy summer beer, so many different types, flavours etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:36 AM

Yes there are other ,species of plants and that should be conserved besides your so-called native ones, anything that needs conserving really is not my concern, not being English and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

WARING : You are now entering an area where a sense of humour is definitely required, you have been warned.

The Definitive Guide to the Unique Taste of Millions

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:55 AM

We've been in North Carolina for about two and a half years.


I've only had mead that was very sweet, and I didn't like it all that much for drinking (although it was quite nice cooked into some dishes). I might like dryer meads better. I love beer, but I can't drink it because I'm allergic to hops. I like cider a lot, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 04:09 AM

Re: SMELLING THE ROSES...
Whilst walking beside the River Coquet in Rothbury, the other day, I enjoyed a whiff of the native Dog Rose, Rosa canina, and thought - why bother with all those cultivars, that are NOT so good for our native fauna?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 09:05 AM

Please tell me this isn't some lame analogue for your retarded views on immigration, WAV - the introduction of non-native species upsetting the delicate balance of our own good cultural ecology. I might go part of the way with your ideas on Green & Godless Gardening, the other thing is repugnant in the extreme.

Otherwise - not sure if you're planning to get down to the Durham Folk Party this year, but along the banks of the River Wear in Durham you'd be hard pushed to smell anything other than Himalayan Balsam (Impatiens glandulifera) as introduced to Kew in 1839 and since naturalised throughout the United Kingdom on account of its delightful exploding seed pods, a somewhat ingenious mechanism that might make one ponder a moment the possibility of Intelligent Design...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 12:02 PM

We rip up Himalayan Balsam where we find it when we're out walking near our home. It chokes the native plants (even the nettles) and it spreads so quickly that you have to get it before it seeds or you do more harm than good (it's like an explosion in a pea factory).

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godless Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 12:20 PM

I have no qualms about bashing balsam, Stigweard - vile smelling stink-weed that it is - and would hope others would do likewise, even though you have to admit the seed-pod mechanism is a rather tidy demonstration of nature at its most inventive! Seems each explosion can scatter seeds up to 22 foot, which is pretty impressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,GoGreens!
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 12:25 PM

Fight the good fight! Join your local ballot access fight, and Go Green!

End the cynical, downward spiral & look up at the sun for authentic change! Vote McKinney for A Real Change!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 12:38 PM

To IB - at least you're okay with someone else correcting you...quite a U-turn for someone who just called me "retarded". I do, indeed, hope to be at The Durham Folk Party, and hope to see/hear you there - especially if you've finally run-out of adjectives about me!
And to the canny McKinney supporter - yes, we are leaning that "Go Green" way...but the looming recession is not going to help matters, one feels.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: In My Humble Opinion
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM

That Go-Greens! interruption was nothing more than electioneering on behalf of an American 'green' party in regards to the forth-coming American federal election, the same notice has appeared on other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

To IB, in particular - it was just mentioned on the local "Look North" news that a grant has been given to improve the very Durham-woodland you just mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 03:49 PM

No u-turn, WAV - I hate & love the bloody stuff in equal measures, and it has characterised & ruined the river paths of Durham for as long as I can remember. As I say I'm with you on the Native Flora & Fauna issue, but not on immigration - on which, incidentally, I find your views retarded, rather than you yourself.

If it's good Durham woods you're looking for, Houghall's a pretty good wander - you can walk from the Rowing Club right through to the Botanic Gardens, taking in some fine ancient woodland on the way. Watch out for those non-native muntjacs though, but on a good day you be assured of some good deer sightings, and if you go off down Hollinside Lane you'll see a field of ancient sheep breeds (assuming they're still there) not to mention the nearby Oxford Sandy & Blacks out by Houghall Village immortalised in my film Unknown Breed - see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hNfqNLSTmts

DFP - Hopefully we'll be arriving at the Dun Cow at some point on the Saturday afternoon, and hanging around for the ballad session, then back for the evening sing at the rowing club. Hope to see you around!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: In My Humble Opinion
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 03:53 PM

I'll take native and non-native fauna in equal measure, like it or not. How do you differentiate anymore? Even the venerable 'English' oak wasn't originally English.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Isn't "Fauna" animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 05:14 PM

Yep, my mistake, but the argument still holds for both flora and fauna

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 05:21 PM

I am in favor of the most suitable plants for the conditions. I am not in favor of, say, bermuda grass in Phoenix. But if there is a plant from the Gobi or the Sahara that is beautiful or useful and not apt to choke out local plants, I think it would be appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 06:44 PM

Guest IMHO has a point. When does a non-native plant or animal become so much a part of the local biosphere that it becomes essentially native?

White tailed deer are not native to Nova Scotia, but have been here hundreds of years. No one suggests getting rid of them. Coyotes (or Brush Wolves - these are not your tiny Western coyotes) are relative newcomers, and it looks like they may turn out to be the predator the deer need to remain a healthy population. Yet many people are up in arms about coyotes and want to see them eradicated.

The salt rose is a beautiful big bush, a favourite of birds, a good erosion controller, a scent of summer. It isn't native, but has been here a couple hundred years.

Our beautiful hardwood stands, mostly of maples, birch, poplar and ash, are a modern forest. Long ago, Nova Scotia was covered in expansive forests of Beech.

There likely isn't a cubic metre of decent soil in North America that doesn't have your ordinary earthworm tunnelling through. They aren't native, and in fact are a scourge of people trying to rescue prairie grasslands. But your average eco-warrior is enthusiastic about earthworms.

Encouraging fragile natives in your gardens is most likely a great idea. Being dogmatic about it could lead to some questionable decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 06:07 AM

"I am in favor of the most suitable plants for the conditions." (Jack)...I noticed, via the BBC, that at the recent Hampton Court gardening show the very-latest fashion was leaning this way - frankly, there seemed to be more "climate change" gardens than "native gardens". But I stand by what I've said - these exotic plants have NOT evolved with the fauna native to the land, and some find the foreign land so "suitable" that they have choked-out native flora (as others have already noted).
And, to Bee, there is similar controversy here in NE England over the grey squirrels, which are now being culled to try and save the native red squirrels.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 06:49 AM

Last I heard they had a non-interventionist policy on Grey Squirrels, I'll have to check it out. As recently as 20 years ago my daughter & I used to watch an abundant Red Squirrel population in the vicinity of Quaking Houses in County Durham, though I dare say it's a very different picture now.

Nice when the occasional stray turns up though; in Granny's Bay we recently had a Ross's Gull resident for a few weeks - no doubt what WAV might call an eco-tourist, rather than a full-time immigrant!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 06:55 AM

'Yep, my mistake, but the argument still holds for both flora and fauna"

I don't agree. Any ecosystem is a delicately balanced and extremely complex system of symbiotic relationships between the organisms that exist within it. Adding to or taking away from this system will unbalance it in some way and could cause it to collapse, with potentially catastrophic consequences for everything living in it.

Although we humans tend to think of ourselves as set apart from the natural order of things, we are in fact an intrinsic part of it. It's a damning indictment of the arrogance of humankind that we have been happy to play fast and loose with our ecosystems for too long. We don't even really understand them, but are happy to assume they will take whatever we abuse we can throw at them.

We have a responsibility to every species, animal, plant, fungi etc to ensure we protect them an try to live alongside them - unbelievable as it may sound, humans don't represent the pinnacle of evolution and we have a duty to ensure the natural scheme of things proceeds as unimpeded as possible - and that includes removing non-native flora and fauna from at risk ecosystems.

One thing more - each ecosystem is itself part of a bigger system - planetwide in fact. You might not give a toss if you've got grey squirrels in your local park and Japanese Giant Hogweed on the bank of the canal, but they evolved as part of a different ecosystem and they cause problems in ours, so they have to go. The cumulative loss of the plants and animals such introduced species have effected will mean our further dent in the planetary ecosystems biodiversity, and the effects of that are something our children might live to regret.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 07:03 AM

Here's some images of the actual bird Ross's Gull in Granny's Bay, April 2008. It was nice chatting to the twitchers at LSA, a breed apart - rather like - er - folkies. I wonder, how many folkies are twitchers too? I'm not a twitcher (and let's face it, apart from my love of traditional songs, ballads and singarounds I'm barely a folkie) but do enjoy such things as a passer-by.

Jesus said: 'Be passers-by.' (Saying #42, The Gospel of Thomas)

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 09:13 AM

I agree with everything Stigweard just said. And to IB - that particular gull was new to me; but, although, like you, I'm a "passer by" birder, the first time I went out for the purpose of sighting birds, with relatives who are birders, I was lucky enough to watch a kingfisher at work. And, as for the squirrels, the fact that culling was being considered made our news here a couple of times the last year or so, and I'm quite sure that they have actually gone ahead with it just recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 09:28 AM

Poem 190 of 230: BIRDWATCHERS' BUDE - WINTER 2001/2

Behind the Tourist Centre,
    Between canal and river,
On the marshy drained flood-plane
    (Not now visited by train),
In among willow and reed,
    Eking out some winter feed:
Treecreepers, bobbing robins,
    Chirpy blue-tits, grey-herons,
The screams of water-rail,
    And snipe sharp on their trail.
Plus, out along limestone down,
    Soaring seabirds can be found.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

The trouble with Grey Squirrels is that they do rather too well. However, according to the National Forests Trust there's good eating on a grey squirrel, so how about a few recipes to get the boys and girls to keep numbers down in an unwasteful manner...? *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM

Squirrel recipes...

http://backwoodsbound.com/zsquir.html

http://www.fieldandstream.com/article/Outdoor%20Skills/Online-Exclusive-Squirrel-Recipes

http://www.bowhunting.net/susieq/squirrel.html

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

Pensthorpe Nature Reserve, Near Fakenham, Norfolk, June 2008

Dead head torn,
shriek-less in ivy lies;
red blood clots
the black-hacked feathers.

Wide eyes gaze,
sightless in gleaming life;
reflecting wind
in cloudless bird-weather.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

I have grey squirrels that come into my garden, and you're right there, it doesn't bother me.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

I'd assume that, these days, the greys are being killed as humanely as possible, and (even though I'm mostly vegan) I agree that they should go to the butchers, to be used in recipes, such as those given above - BUT we don't want greys culled in their native America!, where I enjoyed seeing them in New York, 1997, on my way home.
To IB - what bird was it?

Poem 206 of 230: MY DIET

Chasing breads, nuts, bananas,
    Red sauce, apples, sultanas,
Crackers, conserves, cucumbers,
    Pickles, porridge, pottages -

Lemon barley,
    Cocoa, coffee,
Or cups of tea.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 12:35 PM

I'm told red squirrel tastes better....

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

WAV, 'America' comprises two continents. Even if you use the convention that 'America' refers only to the US of A, Grey Squirrels are not native to all parts therof. I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, and Grey Squirrels are not native here and are a very rare sight. I've never seen one here outside of a zoo. First ones I ever saw were in Ottawa.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:32 PM

Thanks for the details, Bee...and, by the way, it was just mentioned on our BBC national news that re-introduced European beavers have recently bred successfully in Gloucestershire.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM

Beavers are considered pests in some parts of North America, something worth thinking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

...they said on the abovementioned report, IMHO, that European beavers tend to be less destructive, and can aid river flow by clearing away branches, etc...?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM

Ahh the mysterious they again...and facts are always useful in arguements. In all honesty though, none of it is really of interest to me, if the re-introduction works, that's fine, if it doesn't well that's also fine..

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

Beavers are only considered pests by people who refuse to understand the importance of beavers to the maintenance of certain ecosystems. Beavers in an unfortunate location wrt interfering with human habitation (by causing local flooding, damage to ornamental trees, etc.) routinely die in a hurry. Relocation doesn't work well with beavers, as any place you move 'em to is likely already beaver occupied, or is just putting the problem elsewhere.

I personally think beavers are amazing and interesting animals. Up North, there are beaver dam systems so extensive they can be recognized by experts using Google Earth.

If you are a North American experiencing beaver damage to trees, there are solutions that don't require the death of the animals. Paint the first two or three feet of the tree trunk with a mixture of ordinary latex paint (in an appropriately natural colour, if you like) and coarse sand - they don't like their teeth sanded. Alternatively, wrap the same area with chicken wire, firmly affixing the top with big staples - if you don't, they'll just roll the wire down like a stocking. Flooding, if the dam is small and accessible, can be controlled by routinely breaking it - but they do repair them quickly, so it is a lot of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM

Some people use the word "pest" to describe any animal they feel competes with them for resources. That doesn't necessarily make the animal or plant so designated a pest. Beavers serve important functions in nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 03:03 PM

Nothing like good beaver! Is there really anything like bad beaver though?

200

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 04:11 PM

Blackbird I reckon : Image

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: lady penelope
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 04:21 PM

Ah, the terms 'pest' and 'weed' both denote that which is not welcome in the opinion of those that 'hold' a certain area.... They are slightly subjective points of view... all open to argument of course...

CarolC - Fantastic work on the recipes!!! *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 04:55 AM

Yes, LP - thanks CC and IB for beavering away.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 06:16 AM

I wonder, does this mean I can do other links to myspace images without having to go through the usual protocol? Let's give it a go shall we...

Sedayne's Instrumentarium, Granny's Bay, June 2008

Well, it works in preview anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 06:28 AM

Talking of Beavers... There was a time when beavers were considered to possess intelligence on account of their architectural abilities, able to construct dams of incredibly sophisticated design. Only later was it discovered that beavers were instinctively averse to the sound of running water and would go to any lengths to silence it. Even when no actual water is present, as on a recording, a beaver will attempt to stuff up the loudspeaker! So much for animal intelligence, and ultimately, I fear, intelligent design, which is to say those who perceive an intelligence behind the universe and a purpose thereto are perhaps missing the point rather.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 08:24 AM

Well, it's a fact, IB, that my husband contends human engineers seldom operate with intelligence either, though perhaps not due to sensitive ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 09:13 AM

...speaking of which, I just had quite a hassle with myspace - I'd used a free profile editor to get a similar look to my personal site, but last week I awoke to see it back to the standard, with quite a lot of info. needing to be re-done. Apparently, it was due to myspace's ads being blocked...I'm not sure if there's a safe free way of editing it...?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

Like many others, we use Thomas's Myspace Editor, which is simple & effective. Follow the link on my page.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 09:54 AM

Thanks, IB, I'll look again at that one, which I've also seen used quite a lot - but I'm a bit wary now, as I think it was when myspace did those recent changes to their site that the problem occurred...and, next time, they may delete the lot. Or perhaps the html that we have to put in allows pop-ups sometimes..?
Back to gardens, or rough at least, have you and yours had the chance to walk around, if not play, and of those fine links, near your current abode?...noticed this year the Open is at Birkdale, but here's another...

Poem 158 of 230: LYTHAM AND ST. ANNE'S - SUMMER 2001

On bus-line seven,
    From Blackpool's station:
The homes of St. Anne's -
    Wide, like her shore's sands;
Lytham's seaside green;
    And THAT course between.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 10:13 AM

I used Pimp My Profile. I got mine from their "Artistic and Abstract" category. I made quite a few changes to the template they provided, though. This is what it looked like originally...

http://www.pimp-my-profile.com/generators/preview.php?mode=myspace&layout_id=107766

I made a lot of changes to that using their "Tweak it!" function, for which there's a link just below the sample pictures for each layout. Here's how my page looks with the changes I made...

http://www.myspace.com/squeezemusette

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:07 AM

Thanks Carol, I'll keep that one in mind, too - but, as I say, we should be a bit wary of these freebies, and perhaps check occasionally that they don't allow pop-ups or suchlike to block myspace ads (me, in particular, as I have been caught-out once already). Also, I enjoyed my visit to your Space.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

I've had that layout for over a year with no problems so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

Myspace exists on advertising revenue, which is how we can all have free space; the only on-screen advertising on the pages is at the page tops, but there's more on the home pages etc. Using Thomas' Editor you get a pop-up when the page first opens, which is only fair give that it's free. Remember, in being part of myspace we are selling our souls to the corporate devil, so I'm not about to complain too much. All the recent glitches seem to have been ironed out with no ill-effects to the HTML formatting generated using Thomas' Editor. This is actually pasted into the profile so I can't see how it can be effected.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

On both the local and national news, and from David Attenborough, here tonight, they mentioned how butterflies (good indicators of ecological health) are on the decline, plus that 20 "butterfly survival zones" are being created in our countryside...and, as I say, surely these efforts are assisted if gardeners go-native with their selection of flora.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:53 PM

Along those lines, I have found myself lately feeling very grateful every time I see a bee pollinating the flowers in my garden. I worry about whether or not we will have this help for much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:45 AM

from Spaw: "We were approaching "civilization" again only a few hundred yards below the falls and came upon a middle aged couple. The wife looked exasperated and I guess she was as she asked, "Is there anything else to see down that way beside the rocks and the woods and the river?"

That reminds me of my uncle and his girlfriend coming over to England from Long Island a few years ago. We were in a village in the Cotswolds and had a mooch round, which she loved - she's a magpie, and had bought many knick-knacks in the souvenir shops. We then started walking a path across a field to the next village, about half a mile away. After about three minutes, she suddenly piped up with "Why are we here? There are no buildings here!"

Indeed, that particular part of the field did not have its own souvenir shop. Or even a tea rooms. What were we thinking?


Re the earlier link to eco-travel, it's interesting that there appears to be a bit of a backlash at the moment. Much "eco-travel" means tourists travelling to and through places which are not particularly geared up for tourism. As a result, the environmental impact of their presence is actually a lot greater, as the carbon footprint associated with getting to places that are "off the beaten track" is substantially higher. I was watching a programme recently which pointed out that a lot of "eco-tourism" these days is simply the latest fad in middle-class one-upmanship.

In fact, Benidorm was cited as the new face of eco-travel:

Go green - go to Benidorm!

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:41 AM

Fascinating stuff, Ruth. I wonder - might not eco-travel be of far greater detriment to indigenous cultural process that immigration per se? Given that immigration is the consequence of economic / political necessity and is manifestly committed, whereas tourism is just so much colonialist indulgence; putting the world on show for the most superficial of reasons, just so our latter day voyeuristic ego-travellers can have something to talk about over dinner parties, or wherever...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

I read the article, and was pleased about the resort's efforts, but the rest of the article was quite sensibly criticized in some of the following comments, I thought.

I do like the UNESCO 'sacred places' project. Some fragile areas should be just left alone by hordes of humans, or we will end up destroying them.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:29 AM

Bee, there are good points made about the over-developed coastline, the water resources etc. But by visiting resorts where this development has already taken place at least tourists are using large-scale facilities which already exist, rather than creating a market for new facilities in places which are currently "unspoilt".

I say this as a bit of a devil's advocate - I would rather have pins in my eyes than go to Benidorm, and one of the best holidays I've ever had was a "low impact" luxury safari in Zambia, in a camp which only took 12 guests at a time, and which did loads for the local economy and community. Prototype sensitive tourism and a fabulous experience, but sustainable in the long term...?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:42 AM

If the point of eco-tourism is for people to be able to see unspoiled places, it seems to me this is a good thing for many of those places (certainly not all of them). There is no guaranteeing that such places will not end up like Benidorm in the long run, even if there is no eco-tourism. If such places are places of beauty, what's going to prevent more large-scale building in them eventually anyway? But with eco-tourism at least, the owners of facilities in such places have an incentive to keep the surrounding areas unspoiled rather than building them up, or they will lose their clientele.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

carol, each development decision is going to be different, isn't it? Each will have a different social and environmental impact on the area. So I don't think we can simply say that it's a good thing across the board...

"If such places are places of beauty, what's going to prevent more large-scale building in them eventually anyway?"

Local legislation? Protection orders?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:22 AM

I would suggest reading my post again. I didn't say across the board. I did say, "certainly not all of them".

I can say from experience living in a city that is an up and coming resort area, when real estate people get involved, local legislation tends to work in favor of the people who make their money in the real estate business. Our city council is made up mostly of people who make their money in real estate, and most of their decisions reflect this inherent conflict of interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:27 PM

I'm feeling a little hopeless about eco-anything at the moment. The Eastern Shore of Nova Scotia is one of the most heavily clear-cut areas of the province, and right now I can hear the machines, which have been running from 7am to midnight every day for two weeks now, not a half km. from where I sit. I've had a headache from the grinding constant noise for days - my tender rural ears are not used to this.

I'm really torn. We've protested this practice for years and gotten a few protected areas out of it, and I'm well aware of the much needed well paid forestry jobs involved. I also know that these guys will not likely replant, which IMO is better than replanting a mono-culture of spruce, which is the common practice. The new forest here will begin with blueberries, brambles, nannyberry, elderberry and similar plants, quickly succeeded by young poplar, birch and maple, and last will be the spruce, fir, and a few pines. It's a better kind of mix than what was already there, for many kinds of wildlife, and the policy now is to leave standing snags that encourage woodpeckers and owls to nest. Still, it is disheartening to see the vast barren cut-outs the first year or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

There's pros and cons, and controversy, with golf-course development, also. As one of the presenters of The Open (BBC) coverage highlighted, a native rough can be good for native fauna; but some courses have been developed in parts of the world where fairways and greens require lots of extra watering.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:28 PM

Golf courses are a plague here - far too many of them, they require far too much fussing and application of pesticides and herbicides, and the fertilizer run-off has damaged a number of waterways near various courses. Plus, any wildlife that frequents them gets chased away or otherwise disturbed. I don't mind a few, but in the maritimes there are far too many.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:09 AM

...and too many people? 6.7 billion is too many for the area of land on Earth; and 50 million is too many for the area of land that is England, e.g. I certainly don't agree with the Chinese "Communist" Party on everything, but I'm glad they have stuck to their green, humane, birth-control policies...

Poem 102 of 230 CONGESTION

The waxing view;
And the taboo:

Again-and-again for congestion,
Leaders make this sort of suggestion -

Nationalisation,
    Remuneration,
Standardisation,
    Cooperation,
Integration;

Fine...but (through dread of accusation -
    "They don't care about our children" -
And of losing the next election)
    Most politicians never mention -
Promote a lower population.

I do care for the lives of children,
And think birth-control mends congestion -

Curb the birth queue
And influx, too.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:03 AM

"Plus, any wildlife that frequents them gets chased away or otherwise disturbed."

My ex-husband played a course in South Africa where the monkeys would come down from the trees and nick your balls... :0)


"Curb the birth queue
And influx, too."

Oh dear. Here we go again...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:42 AM

"I'm glad they have stuck to their green, humane, birth-control policies..."

the by-product of China's "green, humane" birth policy

and more
quote from the site above:
"Critics have cited a number of reasons for the deliberate starving of these Chinese children. Many of the children admitted to the orphanages were abandoned because they were born disabled. In a country that has an official policy limiting families to one child, some couples abandon disabled children so that they can try again for a healthy child; others may do so to shift to the state a caretaking burden they are unable to bear.

In the Chinese orphanages, according to these critics, it is these disabled children who tend to be subjected to `summary resolution'--deliberately starved, not treated when they develop easily treatable medical conditions, sometimes medicated to keep them quiet as they starve, and confined to `dying rooms.'...The parallels with the treatment of disabled children in German institutions during the Nazi era are haunting."

and, of course, female infanticide

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

"Curb the birth queue
And influx, too."

And Walkslikearacist again shows his stripes. "Green/Godly" my fuckin' ass. Too many people certainly but I think its obvious where you stand (although it is difficult to find a piece of shit standing in a pile of it).

This thread has never been about gardening...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:15 PM

There are other (long time and well respected) members of the Mudcat who aren't attacked for saying the same kinds of things about population control. My own opinion is that it's possible to develop technology that would make the growing population less of a problem than it currently is. We just need to be working much harder on developing these technologies. Also, populations tend to produce a lot of offspring when they are under stress. Those of us in the West (the US and the UK, in particular), could help reduce this problem quite a lot if we didn't wage our proxy resource wars in those countries, thereby putting their populations under stress.

On immigration, my own opinion is that it's not possible to keep cultures geographically separate. That horse has left the barn. Not that I would desire it even if it wasn't too late... I find that people who are culturally similar or the same will still find people to scapegoat even without the presence of people who are culturally different. I lived for 13 years in a place that was about as culturally homogeneous as it is possible to be, and they picked on people who were a different kind of Lutheran than themselves, or people who were poor or came from a different neighborhood.

But if we want to create a situation in which there would be fewer people from stressed populations trying to find peace and security in our countries, we need to stop contributing to the problems that are stressing out those populations. Most people would rather stay in their own countries if they can feel secure and have a decent standard of living. If we want to ensure that the immigrants already in our countries will be able to live among us peacefully, we need to make sure that we don't discriminate against them in our countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:27 PM

"Too many people certainly" (Spaw)...there are now about 1.3 billion people in China - what if the government had not tried regulation? And, as for any human rights issues in any given country, Ruth, that's where a stonger better-respected UN is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:37 PM

Wavey Davey, you were the one who called China's approach to population control green and humane. I'm not sure how "green" a system is which has created a population of complete gender imbalance, but it has been known for many years that the system there is anything but humane for the millions of children who have become little more than its waste product.

The UN is not the world's police force. Unless you are suggesting replacing all federal law with the UN, it would have no power in such cases. The fact is, your "green, humane" system, which might be so on paper, has failed dismally in reality.

Given your views on immigration, I'd love to know what you think of the agencies who rescue little girls from Chinese orphanages - these children who are the victims of the system you so admire - and place them with families abroad, including here in England...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

You agree that it's difficult to know exactly what's going on in China, Ruth? Do you agree that there was/is a need for the government there to attempt to slow population growth? I don't think orphans should be displaced to a foreign land, frankly. And as for England, now, one in three children have to try and grow up in broken families - do you think it's a relatively good place to bring up a child. I think it was a few decades ago - not now.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM

bloody hell, Wavey - you're so blinkered it's quite scary.

Have a look on the links I provided at how those children are living in Chinese orphanages and tell me that ANY life in the UK wouldn't present them with a better alternative. The stories about orphanage "dying rooms" have been circulating in the west for at least 15 years that I'm aware of, so while some aspects of China may be impenetrable, this is one area which is well known thanks to several undercover investigations by journalists. Nothing done in the name of "population control" could justify the miserable lives - and sad, needless deaths - suffered by the children in the links I posted.

So if you wouldn't "displace" those orphans in a foreign land, Wavey, and the laws in China prevent them from being raised within families there, and the care provided by the state is basically abusive, what would you do to relieve the misery of their lives? And please don't mention the UN - this is not their remit and they're not doing anything about it. Is it okay to just shrug your shoulders and say "It can't be helped", and leave them to their fate? After all, they're only foreigners...

Having raised a child in the UK, at least I can speak from experience on the matter. Yes, the UK can be agreat place to bring up kids. It depends on where you live and your socio-economic background, but that's true of any country, and has in fact always been the case. My daughter is healthy, happy and thriving. She has received a good education and a sound upbringing (if I do say so myself) - though now that her father and I have separated, she is from what you would describe as a "broken home". What does that mean to you, exactly? Her dad is still very much in her life and we share her custody and our responsibility for her. She lives in a nice village and goes to a good school, and enjoys quite a priveleged lifestyle, to be honest. She says she's happier now than when we all lived together - the tensions of an unhappy marriage are stressful for everyone involved.

See, a lot of your philosophies stem from your theories about how life works rather than from direct experience. Theoretically, population control in China is "green and humane" - the reality proves to be quite different. In your mind, the only kind of stable home for a child is with two parents, but the realities of life meant that this is not always possible, and that when marriages break down (and it's inevitable that they will sometimes - that's life) children can still live in stable, happy homes.

Despite your much-mentioned travel through 40 countries, my guess is that your life and relationship experience is actually quite limited. Maybe you ought to wait till you have a bit more firsthand experience before you tell other people how best to live their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 03:11 PM

I stand by the idea that controlling the world's population is green, humane, and necessary - at least for those who do care about children and futute generations. The Indian government has also made an effort - on the windy roads, up the Himilayas, I saw sign-posts saying, e.g. "Have one or two, and that will do."

Poem 88 of 230: FROM 20TH-CENTURY SEXUALITY

From One Lover to Free Lover to Fee Lover,
    For children's sakes, let's fashion back to One Lover:
In public-life there are - guess what - women and men;
    Thus, upbringing's best by a woman and a man -
Not by one or two men, or one or two women,
    And not in a tug-of-war of women and men.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 03:30 PM

"at least for those who do care about children"

so what's your solution for China's orphaned girls, Wavey? All those sad little by-products of population control...

Your poem explains nothing, and offers no solutions to the real, messy problems of lives lived - not theorised about on paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 04:58 PM

CarolC, at one point I might have agreed that WAV does appear to be picked on as opposed to debated, which IMO is what you should ideally do if you disagree with someone.

Right now, however, and I am addressing you directly, WAV, I am shocked by your unthinking (I hope) support (even calling it humane!) for China's previous birth limit policies. Have you missed entirely that because, like far too many places in the world, women have been so undervalued in China that families have deliberately aborted girls, practiced infanticide with girls, abandoned them (along with children with birth defects or illnesses) to orphanages? Have you missed that there is now an overwhelming number of young men in China with no hope of ever marrying, because there are nowhere near enough young women for them to marry? That the Chineses government is predicting serious consequences in terms of an inevitable rise in crimes because of this? That there is already an increase in the abduction and rape of women, and that they are now making an effort to convince the people of the value of women?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM

On top of native gardening, tidal and wind power, etc, recycling, reducing our consumption, etc., Bee, we have to consider population control - i.e., if we care about future generations (it would be inhumane not to). What do you suggest on this "taboo" topic?...

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:13 PM

You once again fail to answer direct questions........The how-to of population control is a debatable topic certainly. But your (Wavy) "limiting influx" stands as at the very least, segragationist and racist.......which I believe you are as you continue to promote those things.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:49 PM

"What do you suggest on this "taboo" topic?..."

I asked you first. You're the one who seems to think he has all the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:40 AM

WAV, I asked you how you could possibly have described China's policies, and the results, which are catastrophic for both women and men in that country, 'humane'.

You have a choice of answers, you know. You can admit that you were ignorant of the realities I've pointed out, and therefore intend to revise your views. Or you can somehow find a way to defend those consequences as being 'good', which I'd be fascinated to see. Or you can continue as you are, leaving us to think that in fact you have no human feelings at all for Chinese people and could not care less about their suffering, as long as there are fewer of them. I don't know any people who think that last, so I doubt if that's the case, but I'd really like you to clear that up for me.

Population is best controlled, since you ask, by alleviating poverty, educating people about reproductive health and birth control strategies, and countering the rantings of those religious groups which oppose birth control of any kind. That strategy has worked very well in countries where poverty is not a huge issue, such as Canada. There is never a case to be made for forcing population or birth control, because the consequences are always tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:22 AM

Firstly, I am of course aware that there can and has been inhumane treatment of children in orphanages - including in my country.
And, as for population/birth control, what I'd add to the above is that reducing the revolting inequality between nations, and providing better care/security for the elderly within nations, would also help.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

WAV, could you possibly address the actual issue, which is not simply the evils of orphanages (something that can occur regardless of population control efforts), but the gender-unbalancing of an entire population, leading to severe consequences, and why you have called China's policy 'humane'?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

Sorry Bee, you'll have to wait while he reviews his favorite volumes of "Angelic Techniques Toward Godly Humanity" by Dr. Josef Mengele..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

China's policy is certainly inhumane the way it's been carried out. There's no question about that. But not having any policy at all might be even more inhumane. Had the government not had any policy at all, China might well have become so overpopulated that large numbers of people might have died from famine. As it is now, some of China's rivers are becoming dry before they reach the ocean. These are mighty rivers that once carried large quantities of water all the way to the ocean. And that's after a few decades of having the population control policy. Try to imagine what things would be like in that country had the government not instituted its population control measures. Attacking people is easy. Finding stuff out takes a bit more effort.

The government of China certainly ought to find better ways of keeping their population numbers down, but to suggest they shouldn't have any policy for doing so at all shows a lack of understanding of the situation in China.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 12:29 PM

I was actually in China 20 years ago, and remember thinking - what will it be like when all these bicycle riders have cars; and, it seems, as they embrace capitalism and materialism, more-and-more do have cars; cars are becoming less-and-less polluting, thank goodness; but still, as CC says, thank goodness the governments of the likes of China and India have made some efforts on population control..."Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM

CarolC, 'not forcing population control' does not equal 'no policy at all'.

WAV, so you are okay with the consequences of China's backfiring experiment with population control - for you it really is a case of 'less Chinese people is good no matter how much suffering occurs'.

Now I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:51 PM

Like I said, I agree that the way it's being implemented is bad. But I would be interested in hearing any suggestions about how they might have done it more effectively. They needed compliance in what was, and still is, an emergency situation that could result in many more deaths than has been the case with the way their policy has been implemented so far. How might they have done things differently and still have gotten the compliance they needed?

I also have to say that although I hate that girls have been treated the way they have been under this policy, in order for that to have happened, girls and women must have not been regarded as having any value in the first place. That needed to be changed, and from what has been shown here in this thread (by others), the shortage of women in China is causing that society to reevaluate how they regard women. This is likely to have a profoundly beneficial impact on women in that country in the future.

So boiling it down to "people who don't condemn, in absolute terms, the population control measures taken by the government of China, are racists and Nazis" (as seems to be the inclination of some), is oversimplifying things in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:24 PM

No Bee - I'm very much for reducing suffering, as I've said in poems 1 and 71, e.g.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Bee
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:50 PM

CarolC, a number of circumstances drive people to have larger numbers of children. One is the practical consideration of working farm families to have children to help and expand the family harvesting capability. Another is the lack of knowledge to do anything much about how many children you have - reproductive education. Another is the meddling of religions which oppose birth control. Another is the patriarchal fetish for many sons, and the patriarchal contempt for women.

China actually made great steps in educating the urban and less isolated farming areas populations about birth control, though not so well in isolated areas. China is an enormous land area, with a monstrous population - hard to reach everybody. What China did not do was offer appropriate assistance to struggling farm families, so that the combination of a conventional perceived need for sons to help and a contempt for the value of women resulted in the practice of trying for a son until you got one. China did not institute a program of educating the people about women's equal value, nor did they attempt to deal with the problem for decades, despite being fully aware of the practice. They were also late, and I would blame a government consisting mostly of men who held the same prejudices against women, in understanding the consequences of not having enough young women.

Chinese social scientists were not stupid or uneducated, but they were a product of their culture, and they blindly entered a huge social experiment without a thought given to the inevitable effect on girls and women, and the eventual effect on men of too few women.

Making sure farm families were not hamstrung by having fewer children would have helped. Using their huge and largely successful propaganda machine to raise the status of women would have helped. Rewarding people for having fewer children would have helped - that kind of incentive has been offered in many countries, mine included, for increasing the number of children.

When people are largely affluent, secure, and educated, they limit the size of their families without anyone making it a law. China may well be on that path now - we can hope.

India, btw, is experiencing a similar problem, for similar reasons, though without the forced family size - low status of women + ability to abort or abandon = people opting for sons and not daughters.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:02 PM

China did offer rewards for people who had only one child. And it also allowed people in rural areas to have more than one child without being penalized.

My own opinion is that they could have done a much better job of trying to reduce their population growth rate (which is what they did, rather than reducing the population overall). However, this policy arises from real need and not from a lack of concern for human rights. If we want to criticize the government of China for its human rights abuses, there are plenty of other things to criticize that don't address any urgent needs. But people who understand why the government of China established and implemented this policy do not necessarily do so because of a lack of concern for human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:54 AM

I don't think anyone has failed to acknowledge the need for a more healthy policy along the lines of what Bee has suggested - what ws disputed was the notion that the implementation of this particular policy was "humane".

Humane for whom? It may have benefitted the world overall to slow the population growth, but it has not been "humane" towards the children who have been its victims. My point is that it is very easy to solve the world's problems on paper, with neat little solutions that assume everyone will behave in a particular way, but real life is rather messier than that.

And going back to my earlier point about "broken" homes, the same applies.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:33 AM

"I stand by the idea that controlling the world's population is green, humane, and necessary"
I'm not quite sure what green means, apart from being a fashionable catchphrase which doesn't really say much, but it seems a bit rich that the person who decries growing non-native plants as 'ungodly', will applaud China's efforts in population control, which go right against Genesis 1:28. Is God on your side, or rather, are you on His, only when it's convenient for your own dogma?

I think that people should have the right to choose for themselves how many children to have, be it ever so many or ever so few. If they want to have a lot because of their religion, that's fine, they are following their own path to happiness just as much as the family with one, aren't they?
Who is to say that having one or two kids is necessarily better, or worse. At the very least, it's unbelievably presumptious to make that choice for the parents.

As for divorce, sometimes it is better than staying together, but it can leave lasting marks on people. Again, that's something that the individuals involved should decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:11 AM

Volgadon: we humans have taken the first part of Genesis 1:28 too far - for our own good, and for the good of the flora and fauna that we "rule over".

Poem cum song/lay 101 of 230: JUST SUBSIST
(I've turned mostly-vegan since writing this, but decided to leave it.)

At times when I've had time to take,
    I've thought of a plot by a lake:
The plot would be of fertile ground;
    The lake would have some trout around.

The plot's house would be made of brick -
    Well insulated, in good nick.
And round this abode there'd be built -
    Solar panels, kept at best tilt.

Inside large coops would run the legs
    Of chooks and quails - for fresh eggs.
A vine for grapes plus summer shade;
    And, in thin beds, vegetables laid.

Up at dawn, to use all sunlight -
    Fish and farm by day, read at night.
A spouse with me I'd not resist -
    In retirement, we'd just subsist.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:14 AM

you still haven't explained what makes China's policy humane, Wavey.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM

There is an important difference between saying the "implementation" of the policy is humane and saying the policy itself is humane. The person who is being attacked in this thread has not said that the way the policy has been implemented is humane, although they have been accused of having said that. This distinction is important.

The only reason I can see why people would insist on putting words in this person's mouth is that doing so makes it a lot easier to attack this person.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

Carol, I am NOT attacking David. I have disagreed with him, and attempted to discuss a point with which I strongly disagree. What's more, there is substantial evidence to support why I disagreed with him. Trying to get him to defend, or present any evidence for, his position is, as usual, like nailing jelly to a wall.

Look, I understand that you feel victimised on this forum, and I understand why. I have seen posts of yours, with which i agree quite strongly, and seen that you seem to attract quite a lot of criticism. I really don't know the history behind it all as I've dipped only occasionally into those threads, but I reckon that your own experiences have led you to want to "defend the underdog" when you see cases of others being treated similarly.

But where you see a victim in WAV, I perceive a sort of sinister passive-aggression combined with a huge ego. He also makes some very xenophobic claims about folk music, which I would challenge wherever and whenever I heard them, because I believe these have the potential to seriously damage the reputation of the tradition.

Okay, suppose no one ever disputed any more of WAV's theories and ideas, because to do so somehow constitutes a personal attack. He has already demonstrated the ability to keep endlessly reiterating his "life's work", starting multiple new threads and obsessively drawing attention to himself and his theories. Is this a particularly social way in which to interact with people? If he does not wish to be challenged on his ideas, he should publish them exclusively on his own website, where no one has any opportunity to respond. But this is a forum, and a forum means people debate and discuss and challenge the ideas of others - not that WAV tells us (over and over again) how it is and we just say, "yes, of course you're right."

Someone told me recently that he's been spamming one of the traditional music e-mail groups with his poetry. You think he's being attacked on Mudcat, you want to see some of the responses to his "life's work" there...isn't it interesting how certain people tend to draw the same responses from various different groups, but somehow it's never their fault?

At the end of the day, from what I have observed, it's the people who insist on shoving their own ideas and points of view down the other people's throats, over and over and OVER again, that really wind people up, and which eventually makes their contributions unwelcome. There are genuine victims, and then there are people who deliberately court negative attention. It's important to distinguish between the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

No one is attacking this person, rather it is the retarded absolutist fanatical ego-centric views this person espouses & promotes as being, as this person believes, the best way forward for humanity that are being attacked. It is only because this person chooses to set themselves up in this way that this person's views are thus challenged, as such views must be, simply because they read like the ravings of a mad horse, which is not to call this person a mad horse, rather to perhaps invite this person to reconsider their position somewhat before that conclusion is, perhaps, inevitably drawn. Such views that this person has, and chooses to promote, at some considerable length, have been proven, time and time again, to represent a misanthropy that might well be considered to be inhumane at its most fundamental, or else merely irksome, to those of us who might have knowledge or experience of the things this person persists in discussing whilst being demonstratively wanting even in the fundamentals of those subjects. That this persons persists in such matters is evidence of such a self-promoting ego-centric misanthropy which, it might be suggested, is not entirely an indication of the best of intentions on the part of this person towards humanity as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

I'm not a big fan of people ganging up on others (especially when the ones being treated that way never fight back) and there definitely is a lot of attacking going on in the threads in which this person posts. It is possible to disagree with, to challenge, and even to dislike someone's opinions without continually putting that person's back up against a wall or abusing them (not saying everyone is doing this, but some definitely are).

However, while there are many aspects of this person's opinions that I do not agree with, and some I even dislike, I can also see a lot of people jumping to incorrect conclusions about what this person is saying. When I see people arguing with points that haven't even been made, it looks to me like it's being done for reasons other than just disagreement.

I think if people would just respond to what has been said, and not inject any of their own stuff into what has been said, they would find a lot more common ground (that can serve as a point of departure in a constructive discussion) than they seem to think is there. People's minds can gain new perspectives when they feel an exchange is on an equal footing, but that doesn't usually happen when someone feels that their back is up against a wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

"(especially when the ones being treated that way never fight back)"

no, they just post contentious and inflammatory political views and refuse to present any evidence for them, beyoind the constant self-aggrandisation of posting links to their own websaite.


WAV on the Chinese government:
"I'm glad they have stuck to their green, humane, birth-control policies..."

I have responded to this statement, pure and simple. There is nothing either green or humane about how China has implemented its birth control policies. Given the awful outcomes for thousands of abused and murdered children, how can anyone with even an ounce of humanity say they are glad that China has stuck to its policies?

This is what I challenged. This is what WAV has refused to discuss. Why? because I think he now realises what a horrible gaffe he made by raising China as an example of good practice. But he cannot ever admit that he was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM

I'm not sure of Ruth's stance on native gardening, but IB seems to agree with me, roughly, on that; however, they are both heavily against my views on economic/capitalist immigration, which I am certain has been bad for Aboriginal and English, e.g., culture and society, and which I feel should be controlled by the UN. And it's largely their pro-immigrationism that has led them to say ridiculous things and use some unfair tactics, such as putting words in my mouth, using "Wavey", "retarded", "misanthropy"!...could it be that I've at least tried to support the land rights of Aborigines, Masai, etc., raised the problems of population growth, etc., and put up with these tactics because I (with my degree in humanities, shoestring travel through about 40 countries, etc.) genuinely DO CARE about humanity?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM

Do explain, then, WAV, how you defend this statement:

"I'm glad they have stuck to their green, humane, birth-control policies..."

I ask again: given the awful outcomes for thousands of abused and murdered children, how can you say you are glad that China has stuck to its policies? Do you think that all of those wasted lives are an accepptable price to pay so that we in the west feel more comfortable with the rate of population growth in China? Now that you have been confronted with the outcomes of those policies, do you still believe them to be green and humane?

And what's wrong with Wavey Davey?

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:14 PM

"they are both heavily against my views on economic/capitalist immigration, which I am certain has been bad for Aboriginal and English, e.g., culture and society, and which I feel should be controlled by the UN."

which you won't discuss, or defend, beyond referring people back to your website. It is this tactic of making highly contentious statements, and then refusing to engage in any kind of debate, which has frustrated people almost as much as the statements themselves. If you would answer criticism directly, or provide any kind of evidence for your assertions (beyond referring people back to your qualifications, or resorting to the refuse tip that is Wikipedia), you might find that people are less dogged - usually, they're just trying to get a straight answer from you. Which you mostly refuse to give. My personal opinion is that it's because you don't actually have any (academically defensible) evidence for most of your views and assertions, and can't argue your case successfully, so you choose instead to constantly evade those who try to pin you down.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:19 PM

Again, I think the difference between saying that the policy is humane and saying that the implementation of the policy is humane needs to be pointed out.

If the policy results in many fewer deaths than would be the case without it, then it can be argued that it is more humane to have the policy than to not have the policy. And in that case, the only thing that needs to be discussed (in terms of being humane or not) is how the policy is implemented.

Having contentious views, or even ones that those who don't share them consider inflammatory, isn't the same thing at all as attacking people. And for one to say that the motives behind posting poetry are "self-aggrandizing" requires assumptions (and probably some amount of projection). This is a music site. People post song lyrics here all the time in lieu of discussion... even their own song lyrics. Poetry is lyrics that haven't yet been set to music.

There are no rules in the Mudcat against people holding opinions that others don't like, or even posting lyrics (or poetry). There is a rule against personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Green/Godly Gardening
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

"Again, I think the difference between saying that the policy is humane and saying that the implementation of the policy is humane needs to be pointed out."

I disagee, Carol. Saying that you are "glad they stuck with" the policy isn't just about acknowledging the need for some sort of policy; it implicitly condones the policy's implementation.

"And for one to say that the motives behind posting poetry are "self-aggrandizing" requires assumptions (and probably some amount of projection)."

This isn't about poetry. WAV compulsively posts links to his website as his world manifesto. If someone posts a link to a website once or twice, fair enough. WAV's links to his own website must number in the hundreds by now. Many people have commented that it speaks of a certain level of self-obsession.

"There is a rule against personal attacks. "

And if the moderators felt that i had contravened them, I'm sure I would have heard by now.

This thread is closed. It has run its course and nothing being said is under any discussion except individual personalities and how they relate.

Subject: BS: Plant Natives Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 May 09 - 01:33 PM

Further to the gardening verses in http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll) or http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book), and with the concern that Gardeners' World (BBC) seem to be leaning more-and-more away from native gardening...

Green gardening is native gardening, and vegetables, plus other consumables, should be the only exotic-flora we plant - as doing so can help limit food-miles, etc. By filling our other garden spaces with natives, we use less water and other resources, whilst aiding the native-fauna that, over the centuries, have evolved with them.
(Even high-nectar exotics, such as Buddleia, that are very attractive to SOME native-fauna, should be avoided, because they upset nature's/God's balance – God created evolution, too, that is.)
Our green gardens, with their vegies and natives, can be made still greener by the addition of compost heaps/bins; a wildlife pond – for native frogs, newts, etc, rather than exotic goldfish; bee- and bird-boxes, plus carefully selected feeders; rain- and grey-water vats; by growing everything organically, including thrifty home-propagation/species-swapping; and by leaving some lush untidy patches, decaying branches, etc.