Stylistic quirks in folk music

Subject: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: the button
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:14 PM

As a follow on to the "Accents in folk music" thread.

There's no doubt that a lot of traditional singers have/had certain quirks (can't think of a better word -- and I don't mean it disparagingly at all) in their delivery. Walter Pardon dropping in pitch at the end of lines. Fred Jordan's vibrato. The more "decorated" style of American singers like Texas Gladden.

Now... there seems to be something like a consensus (well, as close as you're going to get on Mudcat) that singing in your own accent is the thing. But (and here's the thing) what about adopting the stylistic quirks of traditional singers?

Is it a good thing, bad thing, or what? Does it matter whether it's conscious or unconscious?

I want to say "It's OK unless it sounds forced." But then I think of Peter Bellamy (one of my favourite revival singers) who must have had the most stylised delivery going, and who consciously set out to adopt a "folk style." So maybe it's OK if it sounds good. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

I dunno. I take a rather dim view of singers who imitate the stylistic quirks of other singers, or for that matter, who make a studied effort to adopt stylistic quirks of their own. One of my pet peeves is the person who naturally has a perfectly nice sounding singing voice who thinks that "because it's folk music" they have to sing as if they're eighty years old, toothless, and just rode into town with a truckload of parsnips. Phony, phony, phony!

On the other hand (and it may sound like some kind of double standard, but it's not), I see nothing wrong with singing, say, a Scottish song with a touch of an accent—if one can do it well. I've always been pretty good at picking up accents, and when I learned songs like "Bonnie Dundee" and "MacPherson's Lament," it never occurred to me not to use an accent. When it comes down to it, trying to sing songs like that without the accent would sound pretty bizarre.

I've been doing it for well over fifty years, and I've never had anyone criticize me or take me to task for it, including genuine Scots. In fact, I defy anyone to sing something like "The Braes of Killiecrankie" without putting on an accent. You'd wind up spraining your jaw or chipping a tooth. Without it, the song would sound just weird!

I do use accents if they seem "natural" and appropriate to particular songs. But as far as stylist quirks are concerned, if I have any at all, they've developed naturally and unconsciously. I just try to sing the best I can, and what comes out is just what comes out.

I mention it here because some folks on the other thread are getting kind of unreasonably nasty about it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: the button
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:15 PM

There are certain things I wish I could imitate about traditional singers. Phil Tanner's breath control would be nice.

I suppose it can be a fine line between "learning from" and "imitating." Walter Pardon's version of "The trees they grow so high" completely changed the way I think about that song (which was one of my favourites already), and when I sing it now, it's definitely in the light of having heard him. I leave it to those unfortunate enough to listen to me to decide whether I've made it my own -- insofar as we can ever make these songs our own. I.e. not much.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

breath control is technique.
breathing exercises can be learned from opera singers,thats the easy bit.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

I would be happy to be criticised for sounding like Peter Bellamy, apart from that irritating habit of dropping off the end of lines with fallng cadences - I simply can't do that and come back to pitch in the next line.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM

I think I object more to people who try to perform songs exactly like the first singer they heard perform it. Unless, of course, they are a novelty act, like the local guy down here who is able to perfectly mimic Johnny Cash but freely admits not being able to sing anything else.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Peter Beta
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:48 PM

Don Firth-

Why not put some examples of your singing on the internet? Just occured to me, you seem to have lots of opinions about how folk should be sung; which may be spot on for all I know; but how about sharing some good examples with us? I'm anxious to hear ya!

Yours in anticipation,
Peter.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

Copying another performer exactly makes you a "tribute singer" and no more. Like giving people photocopies of a worthwhile article rather than your own take on the subject or at least writing it out longhand. That said, adopting one or more "stylistic" quirks from other singers and then using them in your own way on additional material is not mimicking but learning from others, and then doing something new with what you learned.

We all have our own quirks too. Identifying them, moulding them to fit the mood of a song and using them to good effect is something to strive for, I think. And dropping one or two quirks of others into the mix can do no harm, if sensitively done - quite the opposite.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

During a discussion - cum- argument we were once having with Peter Bellamy (on vocal mannerisms), he described his own singing as his "Larry the Lamb" impersonation.
For all the dedication he showed to folk song, and for all the research work he put in to building his repertoire, his vibrato prevented me from coming anywhere near to liking his singing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Gene Burton
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

Some singers just have a lot of naturally occuring vibrato- I couldn't switch mine off even if I wanted to.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:04 PM

well Jim,in my opinion you have bad taste,he was a great interpreter of a song,he was also a sexy singer.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

Peter, I just recently got some halfway decent recording equipment with the idea of "home-brewing" a CD--assuming I can figure out how to run the gear! Also, one of my neighbors (whom I learned a couple days ago is a singer-songwriter) just put a couple of her songs on MySpace. She's out of town right now, but when she gets back, I'm going to check with her to find out how she went about it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: trevek
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM

I find that if I learn a song from the singing of another singer (particularly from tapes/cds)I might pick up the quirk, however after a few performances and intimate contact with the song I'll begin to drop them (known to do that after a few pints too!).

However, sometimes I find these quirks are also interesting techniques which can be used in other songs (some of Christy Moore's vocal mannersims for example)which might be utilised (sans accent of course).

I'm sure more than a few of my techniques have been picked up from someone else and incorporated. I dare say it's pretty common. I don't think I'd deliberately set out to imitate another singer unless it was for a parody or something.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 07:10 AM

The way someone sings a song is often what I find most appealing or interesting about the song--it's what makes me really want to learn it. So for me, some of that style is integral to the song, and I wouldn't want to drop it without compelling reason.

What I detest is when people feel they have to fit a song to their accent and style or, worse yet, to whatever affectations are trendy. Each song has a heritage and performing context, and to rip it out of that context to "modernize" it seldom quite succeeds, to my mind. I also like variety, and a singer who sings everything in his signature style becomes dreary to listen to.

As for accents, if you can do them well (and don't overdo them), I say go for it--accent is also an intrinsic part of many songs. Could you get away with singing country/western without a twang or calypso without a Jamaican lilt? When I sing, I can't really help but adopt an accent, largely because my family lived so many places (including England--I first spoke Britexan with a Midwest/Scottish accent), and I've studied so many languages.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: quokka
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 07:45 AM

some songs insist upon the accent, such as Scottish songs 'Jamie Raeburn' or 'Ae Fond Kiss'. After hearing them done properly I'll not attempt again ( well maybe 'kiss' i think I got away with it) but no' Jamie!!!Or Portree Kid... can anyone translate PK for me??
Cheers
Quokka

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 08:09 AM

Personally , if I learn a song from someones CD and then find it sounds like a copy of THEIR singing , I put the song a way for a while , then come back to it later , when HOPEFULLY it will sound like ME singing it and not Tom , or Eric or Ralph or whoever !

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Hamish
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 08:18 AM

Whatever you may think about Maddy Prior, I think she's done a lot of damage. Too many people have adopted her quirks.

While I'm here, I'd say El Greko got it pretty much spot on.

~8^)

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 08:33 AM

In case anyone is put off listening to him by his own self-assessment, I should add that Gene Burton does NOT sound like Larry the Lamb or Peter Bellamy and is well worth a listen anyway.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 09:49 AM

Actually, you can hear a couple things by Don Firth (including one video) at this page, along with several other nice recordings of some PNWF members.

I'd like be 'quirky' like Don...*grin*

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:22 AM

I've just learned 'The Birth of Robin Hood' from Spiers and Boden but I wonder if the high note in the second and third line of each verse is a Jon Boden affectation. It occurs in other songs of theirs, 'Brown Adam', for example, but as I've never heard another version of either song I sing it as Jon does. To change it by simply singing it in the same way as the first and fourth lines means changing the chord. Does anyone know what the 'correct' melody is? Or are they simply putting their own melody to Child 102?

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:27 AM

I would probably not be upset by someone using Fred Jordan's vibratto; but if they tried to put in his "hoh" between lines that would be a very different matter. Likewise anyone trying to put Elizabeth Cronin's 'um' at the end of each line. I'm not sure that anyone but Charlie Wills could get away with the laugh in the voice in sad ballads like Barbara Allen. Sam Larner's spoken interpolations....

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Vin2
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

I occasionally like to sing Jez Lowe's 'Coal Town Days' and find i can't help slightly giving it the accent (not sure how well) that i've heard Jez sing it in for so long.

Personally i think it's inevitable that you will imitate, often without realising it, to some extent other's styles or 'quirks' especially if singing unaccompanied. As George Pap says, it can even be done as a tribute to that person or the song's origins.

When i first learnt 'Banks of the Nile', it was from a Young Tradition album called 'Revisited' so as that was the original influence i try not to imitate Peter or Royston's style.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: lady penelope
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

As has been pointed out, some songs have 'accent' built right in and, frankly, singing songs like The Dowie Dens O' Yarrow in a straight english accent would sound rediculous. But at this point we're really looking at a language difference, rather than just an accent.

However, I don't find it at all surprising that people pick up accents/quirks/habits in songs from other singers. We pick up our own accents from how the people we grew up talked, it's no different learning the same from the singers we grow up with. In fact it can be quite hard to differentiate the melody from the arrangement until - as Trevek says, we get to know the song better.

As Terry McDonald has pointed out, sometimes we don't know that a song can be sung a different way. If I can, I like to find more than one recording of a song I like, just to hear what the differences are. But often this isn't possible, or practacle - it can get real expensive real quick having to buy albums for just one track...

But then there's also the point that the accent/quirk is the thing about the song that you like, that makes the song in your ears. At this point we're down to simple preferences. And what's meat to one is another's poison. Captain Birdseye critisised Jim Carroll for not liking a certain singer, but that's the point isn't it? It's all subjective. If you find a particular habit or accent or 'quirk' in someones singing annoys you, that's your point of view. Others may have a different point of view which is equally valid.

People that deliberately go out of their way to adopt quirks etc? I tend to find that as they continue singing a song, they'll lose the 'adoptive' bits, whether they mean to or not, unless those quirks really sit well with their voices.

Most of us, I would say, sing in a style that has evolved with us as we've learned songs and techniques. A hotch-potch of quirks and habits but eventually all of a piece and our own.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 01:06 PM

yes, it is subjective.
BUT what annoys me about Jim Carroll is that I have yet to hear him praise a revival singer other than Maccoll,he doesnt like Killen,Carthy,Rose,Bellamy,Davenport,he criticises Ralph Mctell but then admits hes not familiar with his repertoire.,he appears to have an axe to grind .

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM

and June Tabor,Shirley Collins.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

I definitely agree with what you say, lady penelope. Some songs absolutely require accent or dialect or they sound ridiculous.

And as to "I tend to find that as they continue singing a song, they'll lose the 'adoptive' bits, whether they mean to or not, unless those quirks really sit well with their voices," I have a friend who was just a listener to folk music, but we attended the 1960 Berkeley Folk Festival together, where he first heard Ewan MacColl. He followed MacColl around almost like a puppy-dog at the festival. Then a couple of months later, he started singing at song fests. He had adopted almost all of MacColl's mannerisms, including singing while straddling a chair backwards and cupping a hand behind an ear. He even sounded like MacColl.

Then he started listening to records of the Clancy Brothers, and boy! did he sound Irish! In fact, when he first learned a song, he would sound like the person he learned it from.

But by a year or two later, he had learned a lot of songs from a lot of different sources, and all of it seemed to blend together and then drop away. He became one of the better singers in this area. With a style and mannerisms all his own.

Whatever does the job.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

Captain Birdseye said, "he appears to have an axe to grind."

Of course Jim Carroll has axes to grind, I mean him only really liking Ewan MacColl... Wasn't he, Carroll a member of The Critics along with Pat Mackenzie, and MacColl himself, among others?

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: GUEST,blim
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:54 PM

And what's worse is that the only opinions Jim respects are his 'own' - all derived from MacColl.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:05 PM

Others may have already discovered this but the following made for interesting reading for me.

To The Guardian Re: 'The Voice of the People' Guardian, 27 May 1999

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

Try James McMurtry - he embodies full misery into his songs, a great folk singer.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM

thanks Def Shephard,Iam sure most people would like to hear these missing radio ballads.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

Being from Birmingham myself, I would love to hear The Jewellery and A Cry From The Cut.

Oh and a related point of interest, Ian Campbell is appearing at the Moseley Folk Festival in Birmingham. He'll be performing on Sunday 31st August

Moseley Folk Festival lineup

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

You can really only sound like yourself. Imitation is the sincerest form of vocal damage.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM

I would be very happy never to hear anybody imitating Hamish Imlach's mannered squeaky wheezes on "The Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice" ever again. For that matter I would be equally happy never to hear Imlach doing it ever again. God knows why he thought it would be funny to listen to the sound of an overweight nicotine-choked alcoholic with a type-A personality sending up the sound of an overweight nicotine-choked alcoholic with a type-A personality gasping his way towards a fatal heart attack.

Traditional singers can get caught up in self-parody too. I've heard Jock Duncan doing Jock Duncan imitations at times.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

Ian Campbell's contribution to the radio ballads and the two ballads in question are discussed in Peter Cox's book on (the whole of the) Radio Ballads.

It's called "Set into Song" and is obtainable from the author here.

And I am not on commission!

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:26 PM

Yes, I've already ordered the book, and am aware of the content

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM

"Some songs absolutely require accent or dialect or they sound ridiculous."

No. On the contrary, people often sound ridiculous when they attempt to sing in accents which are not their own. I would both feel and sound ridiculous if I sang in an accent which is not mine (with certain exceptions, e.g. theatre or parody). Whether I'm singing "Keel Row", "She Moved Through The Fair", "Bonny Dundee", "Jug of This" or "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke That Cigarette", I sing in my own accent. Nobody has ever suggested that I sound ridiculous for doing so. I can't honestly imagine singing the songs listed above and going from Geordie to Irish to Scottish (or would that have to be a Dundee accent in particular?) to West Country to American (Southern States?). To impose a series of cod accents on an audience during the course of an evening depending on where the song originated from would be laughable.

For me, people putting on accents when singing evokes images of pop music, karaoke, Opportunity Knocks, Butlins Talent Contests, Stars In Their Eyes, tribute bands etc., etc.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:45 PM

.....not forgetting Dick Van Dyke's memorable attempt to sing and talk like a Cockney in Mary Poppins!

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:52 PM

There are the "quirks" you have because they are part of your musical heritage.
There are the quirks you choose.
If the point is to make a sound pleasing to your ears, what difference does the source of the quirks make?

Russ (Permanent GUEST and traditional singer)

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 08:18 PM

". . . people often sound ridiculous when they attempt to sing in accents which are not their own."

True, some do. But it depends on how well they do it. I heard one fellow once sing a couple of Scottish songs and he did it so well I thought he was a Scot. And I was not the only one. Turned out he was from Indiana.

But he was also an actor, and he had spent some time studying dialects as an adjunct to his work.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: trevek
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:02 AM

Don, dialects or accents (or both)?

The acting profession seems to get them mixed up.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:11 AM

Hamish - Maddy Prior's quirks? What did you have in mind? I came to this stuff by way of Ms Prior's singing, and the only adjective I'd apply to it now is 'plain'.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Vin2
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

Hey Def Shepard, what brilliant news to hear of Ian Campbell performing (at Mosley Folk Fest). I've wondered for ages what had happened to the great Ian. Excellent!!

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Marje
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:06 PM

Peter Bellamy's a bit of an acquired taste. I was once listening to a mixed folk album in the company of my stepmum. When a Peter Bellamy track came on, I said, "We had him in the back of our car once" (which is true, but I'll spare you the details).

Stepmum listened for a few moments longer and then said, "Well if he was in the back of my car, I'd stop and tell him to get out!"

Marje

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

I'd agree with that comment about Maddie, Phil. Plain and unadulterated I would say - Possibly very clear.

But anyway what has all this to do with Stylistics? Yes, they were quirky, especialy that falsetto voice and the microphone head hair do's but it was the 70s after all. And I wouldn't call it folk music...

:D

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM

Unless one could identify distinct groups (perhaps working distinct club circuits) who'd learnt, rehearsed and subsequently transmitted slightly different interpretations of "Betcha By Golly Wow", with some of them perhaps singing "Bet You By Golly Wow"... Do club singers await their collector?

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:11 PM

The Greasy Wheel. (Trad with words I. Campbell)
Collected in fragmentary form by Charles Parker of the BBC for a radio programme about life on the narrow-boats (A Cry From The Cut), this song captures the brief glory of the men who manned the steam barges at the end of the last century. Their glory was brief because the steam power which gave them their ascendancy had already, in the form of the locomotive, made the canal system obsolete.

This track can be found on Something To Sing About - The Ian Campbell Folk Group

Pye Records PKL 5506 LP 1972

It appears that this song was the only one from the two "non-canonical" Radio Ballads, to have made it in recorded form.

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:23 PM

A google search for the difference between "dialect" and "accent" turned up the following definitions:

A dialect is usually spoken by people who live in a certain region of a country. Those people speak their mother tongue in their own individual way. For example, many Scottish people have a dialect.

An accent usually describes the way people pronounce words of a language that is different from their mother tongue. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger speaks English with an Austrian accent.

And here's another:

Accent and Dialect

Most people think of an accent as something that other people have. In some cases, they speak disparagingly about one accent compared with another. The truth is that everyone has an accent, because an accent is simply a way of pronouncing words. The reason that you can tell the difference between people from Boston and the Appalachians, or between London and Manchester is because each group of people has a different way of pronouncing the same words. In other words, accent is all about sound.

When it comes to changes in vocabulary in different regions, then you're talking about dialect. Dialect refers to differences in accent, grammar and vocabulary among different versions of a language. For example, depending on where you live in England, one type of baked goods could be called buns, cobs or rolls. It is likely that when you speak in the dialect of a particular region, you will also speak in the accent of a particular region. However, incomers may speak the dialect of a region with a different accent. This may also apply to people who have emigrated from one country to another. They may speak a different form of a language from those born in that country.

So I think we're talking about both"dialect" and "accent."

Lots of good information out there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: Marje
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 12:51 PM

It's quite simple: dialect is about vocabulary and grammar. Accent is about pronunciation.

But you're right, Don, to point out that everyone has an accent. I don't know about in the US, but in the UK, people who speak RP (the predominantly south-eastern and "educated" English accent) tend to believe that they don't have an accent and everyone else does. Most other people understand that it's impossible to speak without an accent and that we all have one.

Mind you, I thought this thread was supposed to be about vocal and stylistic mannerisms, which are a whole nother issue and don't necessarily involve accent. There are all sorts of interesting mannerisms used in singing (use of vibrato, glissando, nasal delivery, whiny singing, "choir-boy" diction, throaty "old-man" singing, Dylan's mumbling, Cara-Dillon's little-girl style, etc etc). We each have our favourites and our pet hates too - any nominations? I'll start by saying I just love Maddy Prior's singing and if I were clever enough to copy her, I would do.

Marje

Subject: RE: Stylistic quirks in folk music
From: trevek
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

Funny, I already wrote a reply but for some reason it hasn't appeared.

Yes, Marje's definition is precisely what I wrote (in my missing post).

My original point was that for some annoying reason the acting profession has a habit of asking actors what 'dialects' they can do (and I have a book about doing accents which uses th D-word) when they mean 'accents'.