BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO

Subject: BS:E. U .lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

In Ireland we have been given the opportunity to vote yes or no on the lisbon treaty.
as I understand it Irish farmers will be disadvantaged.
plus future generations can be conscripted to fight for a European army.
at the present time Ireland is a neutral country
should we vote yes or no.

Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

Nothing in the Treaty bears on conscription.
"Common Foreign and Security Policy... would not affect the existing legal basis, responsibilities and powers of each Member State in relation to the formulation and conduct of its foreign policy, the national diplomatic service, relations with third countries and participation in international organisations, including a Member State's membership of the Security Council of the UN."
"The Conference also notes that the provisions covering CFSP do not give new powers to the Commission to initiate decisions or increase the role of the European Parliament. The Conference also recalls that the provisions governing the CFSP do not prejudice the specific character of the security and defense policy of the Member States."
See http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm and other internet articles.

I know nothing of the current or proposed agreements on agriculture, and wouldn't understand their import unless I was involved in European agriculture.

Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

I am not allowed to vote,despite being here,18 years.
unless I pay 600 euros,to become eligible.

Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

the leaflets seem designed to be unintelligible.
my instinct is not to trust Peter Mandelson

Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: GUEST,nugent dirt
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

Nobody should trust Mandelson but Captain if your from the UK you dont have to pay anything to register to vote in Ireland. Im not sure where you got that infomromation. Only trouble is that you should have done it last November!

Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: Gulliver
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:38 PM

One aspect of this referendum that I find disturbing is the number of exreme right-wing organizations using it to gain publicity for their causes, because Ireland is the only country to hold a referendum. My impression from the Internet over the past few weeks is that stirring up trouble are the BNP from the UK, neo-Nazis from Germany and Eastern Europe, anti-Illuminati organizations from the US and racist, anti-immigrant and islamaphobic groups from all over the place.

They all say they oppose the treaty because it's bad for Ireland, and some of them have established "front" groups here (Ireland) and on the Internet, but I'll bet most (all?) of them were totally ignorant of the country until they heard about the referendum and jumped on the bandwagon (and they'll disappear just as quickly into their rat-holes after the referendum).

Of course there are also Irish organizations that fit the above political description that are using the referendum to further their own ends. And in all fairness, politicians on all sides of the political spectrum are giving it some welly.

The problem is that good folk (like myself!) who oppose the treaty for their own good reasons could be lumped in with these (I'll be polite) crackpots.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM

I am allowed to vote in general elections ,I am not allowed to vote on matters concerning the constitution,neither was I allowed to vote on the abortion referendum.
it costs money to become an Irish citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM

quite funny,
I received a bulletin on my space from ceol agus craic,stating that we should vote no on this treaty,and then suggesting all brits should be kicked out of ireland.
now I am in favour of a united Ireland,even though I cant vote on certain matters.and if I had proper democratic rights I would have voted no.
it seems I would have some strange bedfellows, I dont fancy being kicked out of Ireland.

Subject: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:53 AM

On June 12, Ireland holds a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which governs how the EU will be run for decades to come. Only one per cent out of a population of 486 million in 27 countries, will actually get to vote on the Treaty. I just can't understand how 26 countries can bypass their democratic right to decide on Lisbon.

If the Treaty is passed, we will have the familiar photos and video of the Taoiseach Brian Cowen signing a treaty on behalf of the rest of us. Even though he has admitted he has not read the treaty in full.

At least our man in Brussells should be up to the job. No. Irish EU Commissioneer Charlie McCreevy also admitted he had not read the Treaty and disturbingly added that no "sane, sensible person" would be expected to read it!

So, who has read it? And should we sign something we don't understand? Does anybody care?

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:01 AM

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:03 AM

Welcome to the USE, the United States of Europe.

All it lacks is four letters to make the name have the ring of truth, and they are; less.


USELESS


Vote against it please, I voted for a trading bloc, not a gravy train for Eurocrats, and the removal of self determination.

IT'S GONE TOO FAR !

I wish now that I had voted NO.


G

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:11 AM

Inappropriately above the line, unless you've written a song about it?

However, we know that no British government would dare to have a vote on it because they know that it would be thrown out by a massive margin. So to keep their place at top table, they've got to find a way of showing that it's not a treaty at all, so it's all right. That way, they get to keep playing with the big boys.

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:17 AM

Damn it!. Hit the wrong Button.
Yes Connacht Rambler. There are millions of us who care; those like myself who feel deep frustration in not being able to influence a truly parliamentary decision and those who care, on the other side of the coin, and are content to see the Treaty( the Constitution in all but name) ratified. It is my earnest hope that the Irish voter will give a resounding rejection at the referendum and offer Brown the opportunity to escape from his dishonsesty by claining the Irish scuppered the deal and therefore there is no need to hold one over here. Blair escaped the referendum on the first constitution vote when other European nations rejected it, automatically booting the idea into touch.
Brown is dishonest - stealing a parliamentary promised referendum.
Brown is a stranger to the truth - I saw his lips move.
Brown is deluded - he actually believes people trust and believe him.

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:39 PM

From what I've learn of it, I'd vote Sein Fein.

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:28 PM

As far as I'm concerned, I'd need a lawyer (which I can't afford) to advise me on this, so, as I don't understand it, the rule 'if in danger or in doubt - vote no' applies! If it's so important, sitting on the fence is not an option, after all ,isn't that how dictators gain power?

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:36 AM

I'd like to hear more of the views from non-irish nationals. the weight of this treaty for all of europe is on our shoulders, quite unfairly, considering that it was already defeated by other Europeans. A democracy isn't a democracy if your vote is removed from you for voting the "wrong" way. As a result we have unelected EU beurocrats threatening us (Jose Barrosso: Ireland will pay the price http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/vote-yes-or-well-all-pay--price-eu-chief-warns-1388158.html) Can any English / French / German etc advise us how they would vote and why?

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:57 AM

NO

The destruction of our steel industry
The destruction of our coal industry
The destruction of our fishing industry
The chlorinification of out water
The uneven application of the rules
The ignoring of the rules
The 'gold plating' of the rules
The ham stringing/hand tying of local authorities.
The increase in the council tax to fund the stupid universal new laws.
Laws that suit one country but not others being rigorously applied across all member states.
The CAP being run for the benefit of the French farmer.
The enormous fraud that goes on amongst both officials and others.
The refusal of the auditors to sign off the accounts for the last umpteen years.
Fish that are under the legal size for fishermen to catch, being openly displayed for sale in European fish markets.


I could go on.


Giok

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:07 AM

if I was allowed to vote, I would vote no.I am really pissed off I cant vote,I have been here 18 years.
but I am hoping my step children who can vote. will vote no.
most of the farming community in my area are against it.

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Gulliver
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:33 AM

This was discussed with Jens-Peter Bonde on RTE radio this morning. Some discussion and links are on this site:
www.politics.ie

Jens-Peter Bonde, a Danish MEP since 1979, I believe, definitely wants a "No" vote.

Don

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Eutopia
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:29 PM

It's not just one treaty. The Lisbon Treaty references a load of other treaties that came before. It would take you months to get through the lot of them, and you probably still wouldn't know where you stood. Better to join the Dutch and the French on the Nice Treaty and vote NO.

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Gulliver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

From today's Irish Times.

Despite the poll results, I'm very sceptical that the No vote will be successful on the day.

Don

THE LISBON Treaty could face a shock rejection with the No side now in the lead, according to the findings of the latest Irish Times /TNS mrbi poll.

It will take an unprecedented swing in the last week of the campaign for the treaty to be carried.

The poll shows the number of people intending to vote No has almost doubled to 35 per cent (up 17 points) since the last poll three weeks ago, while the number of the Yes side has declined to 30 per cent (down 5 points).

The number of undecided voters is still a significant 28 per cent (down 12 points) while 7 per cent won't vote.

The massive increase by the No vote since the last poll has mainly come through gains among undecided voters but, even more ominously for the Yes side, it has lost some support to the No camp.

While the final outcome is still in the hands of undecided voters, the clear momentum is now with the No campaign and it will take a dramatic shift in public attitudes over the next few days for the Yes side to win.

The swing to the No camp has not been prompted by domestic considerations, with just 5 per cent of those opposed to the treaty saying they are influenced by a desire to protest against the Government.

The reason most often cited by No voters is that they don't know what they are voting for or they don't understand the treaty - with 30 per cent of No voters listing this as the main reason for their decision.

The poll was conducted last Tuesday and Wednesday among a representative sample of 1,000 voters in face-to-face interviews at 100 sampling points in all 43 constituencies

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:25 AM

It seems to me -- and I'm very much an outsider who simply read and listened while I was in Ireland -- that if a country (such as Ireland and, I think, Portugal) will have no representation on the Commission except for a rotation the country will not be represented.

This seems to be an attempt by the large countries (France, Germany, etc.) to dominate the EU by blocking the votes of the smaller countries (Ireland, Portugal, etc.).

I see no reason for the "big boys" to impose their will on the little fellas. That's not equality, it's bullying.

But as I said, I'm not directly involved and like Will Rogers, "I only know what I read in the newspapers."

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

I agree with Amos. I'd like to hear more from non-Irish EU citizens, particularly disenfranchised French, Germans, Swedes etc. Why are they taking this lying down? Have they given up on democracy?

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:50 AM

When most of the farming community are against it then I would vote Yes.
Explanation required,from the Irish Republic joined the EU they have become the fastest growing economy in Europe,there seemed to be no end to the advances in industry, granted, world recession has hit the economy, but the results of the past few years are there to be seen.
The Republic has been swamped with countless nationals all seeking work and it seems succeeding, as the population expands not too many non-Irish are returning to their homelands.
I fail to see the reason for the No vote.

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 07:52 AM

As a matter of interest, does anyone know why Ireland is the only country having a referendum?

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Another goosd reason for voting Yes, the US would prefer to see a complete melt-down of European unity, witness the latest cranky yankee to stick his nose in John Bolton former US ambassador to the UN,, he stated that a `Yes` vote in Thursdays referendum could `impact on the military alliance of European countries with the US`.
Bolton was the war-mongering nazi who gave Bush his support on Iraq.

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM

The more I'm hearing, the more I'm convinced of a 'No' vote (were I entitled to vote)!

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:56 AM

It's looking like the 'No's' have won it!

I think this was all about a) the Irish people considering that they were being ridden over roughshod b)the whole thing was a complete dog's breakfast by the EU & Irish Government, not enough was explained what it was all about until the very last minute, and then, we only seemed to get half the story; people were, not surprisingly very suspicious, especially after the Bertie Ahern debacle and general mistrust in the government after the Shannon Airport scandal in the West, amongst other things. I think they just felt they wanted some kind of revenge and this was a channel to do it!

Subject: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:09 AM

All the indications from around the country indicate that the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty has produced a victory for the NO campaign. All the working-class constituencies in Dublin and Cork, and constituencies all along the Western sea-board have produced majorities for the NO vote, usually 55%-60% for NO, against 45%-50% for YES. So far, only middle-class constituencies in Dublin and Kildare have a YES majority.

I started a new thread on this topic due to its significance, not only for Ireland but for Europe. Around 10 of the 27 member countries have ratified the Lisbon treaty so far, but none of them with a referendum, Ireland being the only country in the EU to hold one. But without Ireland's agreement the treaty cannot be ratified, as it needs a unanimous vote.

This result is probably unprecedented in Ireland: all the major political parties, almost all the trade unions and the employers' associations urged a YES vote on this issue, but were obviously rejected by the electorate. The Catholic Church remained largely neutral, as did, to the best of my knowledge, other religious groups.

In last week's poll by the Irish Times, which predicted a NO majority, the main reason given by the NO voters was that they did not understand the treaty. This reason was rejected, in somewhat arrogant tones, by the spokesmen for the proponents of the treaty, but they are now realizing that they got it wrong.

What next for Europe?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:24 AM

I think this is a good thing for Ireland and Europe as it demonstrates that the electorate are not prepared to be ridden over roughshod by beauracracy. This is true democracy in action! A lot of people who didn't understand what it was all about were advised to vote 'Yes', otherwise, all kinds of unpleasant things COULD happen, so, they felt intimidated. I'm glad it has backfired on those people who gave that kind of advice.

If more time had been given and the facts had been presented in a more effective way, things could have turned out very differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

P.S. I can't really see why you needed to start another thread, 'Gulliver', what was wrong with the other one?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

The first thread discussed the run-up to the referendum in Ireland and the implications of voting yes or no. Now that we know the result, it's a whole different ball-game, with implications that affect the future of Europe as much as Ireland. Don

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:59 AM

Some of us Over Here don't readily get news like this and I'm glad that this thread was begun. It would have been lost in the earlier one.

Rethink the Treaty, educate the public, and resubmit it to the voters if it's important.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

They wouldn't have resubmitted the vote if the answer had been yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM

Good point, Paul.

The more I had "VOTE YES" shoved in my face - and we all did (on every single lamp pole along the main national road into the city, how much did that cost the taxpayers?) and much else - the more resistance I felt to being simultaneously manipulated and under-informed (bad combination, that). Multiple emails circulating from the top brass at the educational institution where I teach, politically-interested bodies, all crying Say Yes!!! and exhorting us to Get Out There And Vote!!!!!!!!!

Well, I got out there and voted, all right. A resounding NO, which I X'd in so hard that it almost cut through the ballot paper. Less than a hundred years ago people died for Irish independence. Why give it away now? Why give it away ever? Why give away our enfranchisement? Why should we let the politicians decide what we want and do our voting for us? The Taoiseach has just been thrown out of office for lying and corruption. What's that tell you?

Anybody catch Brian Lenihan (Fianna Fáil TD for Dublin West*) on the telly trying to speak over a booming chorus of shouted NO-NO-NO's from the bystanding populace and getting utterly drowned out, even with mics shoved right up his gob? The only words I caught were him moaning about not being allowed freedom of speech. Freedom of speech????!!!!! Listen all around you, Brian. It's drowning you out, mate.   

Bonnie in The People's Republic Of Cork (returning the highest NO percentage so far)

*Returns just in a few minutes ago from Lenihan's own constituency: One-two-three, all together now: NO

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM

thats made my day.especially as Icouldnt vote but would have voted no.
the bookmakers had a yes vote 1 to 5 on.
so agood result for them too,Iwonder what the odds were for ano vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Zen
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:00 AM

Whatever the final result in Ireland I would have preferred that the political and economic future of 495 million people in the whole of the EU could have been influenced by an overall majority of the EU-wide electorate rather than just 1.3 million voters in Ireland (whether that outcome would have been yes or no).

Zen (expatriated Irishman)

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:09 AM

The other 459 million of us were not allowed to vote.
Our masters decreed that our acceptance was not required.
Thanks Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Zen
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

I know that. I agree with you. The problem is a lack of proper democracy. The outcome of the Irish vote doesn't solve that basic problem.

Zen

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM

I think you mean "thanks masters". It wasn't the Irish who denied you a voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

I am thanking the Irish for throwing it back at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM

Wooops sorry, I misread it as sarcasm -

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM

Wonder how long it'll be before they try again under a new guise -

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Irene M
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:31 AM

Phew. Thank you Ireland.
Anything that keeps the EU from becoming a sodding great dictatorship is fine by me.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM

only four votes decided it in carlow /kilkenny.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Hi Bonnie - the new guise will start 1 July when the French take over the Presidency.....

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Arnie
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM

The latest on BBC news is that Gordon Brown has said that Ireland's NO vote doesn't change a thing. He phoned Sarkozy this lunchtime and said that both the UK and France should continue ratifying the treaty which is going through both Parliaments at present. What a total waste of taxpayers' money and parliamentary time. What will be achieved when the treaty is ratified in the UK and France? It still can't be implemented thanks to our Irish friends. I suppose what it does show is exactly what would have happened in the UK if we'd been allowed to vote on the EU Constitution - whoops sorry, I meant Lisbon Treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:24 AM

Well done the people of Ireland in saying no to this weasely attempt at pushing through something that the people of France and the Netherlands had previously rejected in its former guise as the European Constitution.

Of course the population of the UK were promised a vote on this as well but Blair/Gordon of Cartoon back-tracked and reneged on their promise - and that will not be forgiven when the next General Election comes along.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

The President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, will make a statement in about two hours time on the result of the Irish referendum--he's been working on it all afternoon.

Eamonn Gilmour of the Labour Party said that his party would not support an attempt to have another referendum on the Treaty.

I think we'll have to wait until France takes over the Presidency in a few weeks time to see what the outcome will be in Europe. One thing that did not help the YES side in the referendum was a statement a couple of weeks ago by a French diplomat (it may have been Sarkozy) that Ireland would "suffer" if she did not deliver a YES vote (sorry I can't provide further details--I heard it on the radio). This got peoples' backs up (of course France, along with the Netherlands, voted to reject the EU Constitution three years ago, upon which all further voting on it was canceled).

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM

To Bonnie Shaljean in The Rebel County:

Bet you're now even more glad that your Home-Grown Ascendancy didn't manage to get their Electronic Voting System up-and-running-in-the-way-they-want; I deduce from your earlier posting that there's still a "paper trail". Just think what could have happened without the opportunity to mark real pieces of paper, but instead touch an icon on a little screen.