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BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO

Rog Peek 19 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM
Wolfgang 19 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM
Mr Happy 19 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM
GUEST 16 Jun 08 - 01:00 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jun 08 - 06:57 PM
Gulliver 15 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,JTT 15 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Jun 08 - 03:46 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Jun 08 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 14 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM
Rapparee 14 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Jun 08 - 10:11 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM
Nickhere 14 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM
Nickhere 14 Jun 08 - 08:05 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Lochronan 14 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM
Gulliver 14 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,JTT 14 Jun 08 - 09:37 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,tony geen 14 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM
Roberto 14 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 14 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM
Amos 14 Jun 08 - 02:37 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jun 08 - 02:20 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Mr Grumpy 14 Jun 08 - 12:27 AM
Rapparee 13 Jun 08 - 10:39 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 10:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 08 - 07:42 PM
bfdk 13 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 08 - 07:13 PM
Connacht Rambler 13 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 08 - 06:29 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 08 - 06:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM
The Sandman 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM
Rapparee 13 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rog Peek
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

It seems to me, if your political leaders tell you something is good for you, what they really mean is that it's good for them. I'd say if you work on the assumption that it won't be good for you, then you'll not go far wrong. All the political leaders in Ireland seem to have told the people the Lisbon treaty will be good for the people, so the people have voted no. Good for them!

Rog


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Hmm, I think you all realise that a rejection of the Lisbon treaty just means that about half a dozen treaties (which make a much longer reading BTW) that were meant to be replaced by the Lisbon treaty stay valid instead.

That was not a vote against "Europe" though some seem to think it was. It was just a vote for the old (obviously not liked everywhere) bunch of treaties instead of the new one.

The new one had some interesting democratic opportunities like a referendum enforceable by (don't know how many) citizens of Europe.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM

alternative.........the Lisbon ray gun??:

thread.cfm?threadid=92111#1757023


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:00 AM

Thank you Ireland, from Texas. The Nazi Windsor-Saxe-Coburg-Gothas are trying to sell you out to the Commie U.N., and you said no. Hardee har har. Beautiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM

We live in a small village where everybody knows everybody, and we are recognised here for the nationalities we are. I'm speaking of a situation specific to myself only, and I really don't feel like discussing it publicly any further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:57 PM

it's readily apparent from both my accent and my English partner's that neither of us was born here. That doesn't follow. Accents at most indicate we've spent a fair bit of time living in some place or another. There are millions of Irish born people with the accents of other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

JTT, that's right. The government ministers and spokesmen for the government over the past six months have been working overtime to paper over the cracks. They realize now that they have squandered their chance during the boom period to fix the health and education systems, to put a proper public transport infrastructure in place, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM

The French Ambassador's residence is a beautiful house, but huge and impossible to run, and families would prefer to live in a smaller and more modern place, apparently.

Ireland's economy is in trouble deep at the moment - unemployment figures are rocketing, the multinationals are pulling out and moving to Latvia, the housing bubble has gone pop, and the Government are standing gazing at themselves in the mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 03:46 AM

Sorry, Jim, just twigged that you're not PM-able (brain cells aren't too good this hour of Sunday mornings).

My email is my name, all squished together with no spaces or dots {a t} g m a i l {d o t} com


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 03:31 AM

Dunno - ?? I've always been sent polling cards and voted. I'd appreciate it if we could please discuss this by PM and not on the public board any further. I had no idea about any of this -


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM

Bonnie - I have an RSI no. too!

A friend of mine in the same situation as me got a polling card too -there's something funny going on here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM

I guess I'm just an old Rebel....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

And, of course....

Now, therefore, we, the elected Representatives of the ancient Irish People in National Parliament assembled, do, in the name of the Irish Nation, ratify the establishment of the Irish Republic and pledge ourselves and our people to make this declaration effective by every means at our command.

We ordain that the elected Representatives of the Irish People alone have power to make laws binding on the people of Ireland, and that the Irish Parliament is the only Parliament to which that people will give its allegiance.


As well as...

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty: six times during the past three hundred years they have asserted it in arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom, of its welfare, and its exaltation among the nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:11 PM

Its all a bit vague.

one set of circumstances saved deValera from going the way of Connolly etc, and another set of circumstances got Lord haw Haw hanged.

Shouldn't enquire too closely if I were you, as its working out alright for you. You got to vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM

No idea. It all happened as I said it did. In fact I'm American-born and it's readily apparent from both my accent and my English partner's that neither of us was born here. Everyone in the village knows I'm a Yank, and it was a local people in the polling station. We voted in the general election too, and I've always received the cards, and never pretended to be other than what I am. Ditto Michael. If you want to discuss this further, can you PM me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM

Bonnie, you say you have a UK passport and was allowed to vote in the referendum despite not being an Irish citizen (correct?)

Irish citizens are allowed to vote in local, EU, general elections and referenda on the constitution. Non-Irish citizens from the EU are allowed to vote in local and EU elections. That's the situation as far as I know.

People born in Northern Ireland are automatically granted dual citizenship - they of course hold British passports, but may also apply for an Irish one (as far as I ma aware). It may be that you were born in the north, or that the officials at the register assumed you were when they saw your passport, but I'm surprised they didn't check.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:05 PM

One of the best consolidated accounts of the Lisbon Treaty was publisehd around the start of June in Village Magazine (an current affairs monthly that also has a daily on-line version)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM

The Tiger economy???? Read the newspapers lately?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

I combined our three threads on the Lisbon Treaty, since it's usually easier to follow a discussion if it's not trifurcated. I hope that's acceptable. If you want to know which message came from which thread, look at the message titles.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

It's the French Ambassador's residence, which is worth a mint. (I like the bit about Sean Dunne making his fortune in the law courts.) More here:

Friday January 18 2008
IT'S a complaint most home-owners will not have heard before. As the French Ambassador's sumptuous residence in the heart of Dublin goes on the market with an exclusive price tag of €60m, he revealed the home is so vast he has to send out an SOS on his mobile phone to locate his wife.

The French Government has decided to sell the property, which boasts one of the most sought after addresses in the country at Ailesbury Road in the heart of Dublin's "Embassy mile''. It's Chancery offices across the road, with a mere price tag of €20m, has also been placed on the market.

The vast 40-room house, number 53, formerly known as Mytilene, sits on just under two acres and covers 11,450 sq ft of living space. It boasts a cellar of French wine, countless fireplaces, the first-floor private quarters of the Ambassador, a restaurant fit for a Michelin- star chef and a major drawing room for entertaining.

As the house, which dates from 1900 was put on the market, Ambassador Yvon Roe D'Albert, who is only in the post for six-months in Ireland, said it was a fabulous location for hosting events, with a dining room capable for comfortably seating 45 people and a drawing room which would hold 120 guests. However, he said it may not suit families. "It's so big, I have to call my wife on her mobile phone if I want to talk to her," he revealed.

According to Lisney's John O'Sullivan, there is "disbelief in the city that it is going on the market" after almost 80 years in the ownership of the French Government. He added: "We have been dealing with very interesting inquiries already."

That leafy region of the capital is already home to a number of wealthy developers such as Sean Dunne, and others who have made their fortunes in the law courts and technology companies.

As part of a worldwide downsizing move, the French Government has decided to sell off a number of properties. However, they will be looking for an alternative accommodation for their Ambassador and offices for staff in the Ballsbridge area. It is believed they may consider exchanging the property for an alternative building plus cash.

The Ailesbury Road house also claims a colourful history of a rags-to-riches story. Around 1840, a homeless boy, who was selling newspapers at Donnybrook Fair in Dublin, found a large sun of money. After tracing the owner, he was rewarded for his honesty. George Bustard then set sale for Australia where he made his fortune. He never lived to realise his dream of building a house close to the fair. However, he left strict instructions in his will for his family to pursue his wishes, even down to using the expensive white stone which makes the residence unique on the road.

The house was purchased by the French Government in 1930.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Lochronan
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

Last time they pulled out, after the Ballina races, the French officers and men were pardoned, sent home, and the Irish were executed! An earlier accord betwen the British and the French.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM

From the property pages in the Irish Times recently: The French government has decided to sell its embassy in Dublin.

Are they pulling out?

Don


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Welcome to the discussion Roberto. I want to hear more from disenfranchised Europeans, of whatever persuasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:37 AM

I am absolutely pro-EU.

Ireland *was* the poorest country in Europe, and the wonderful help we got from the EU certainly did help to lift us out of that.

(In exchange, they got our fishing rights, the richest in Europe, and their lunatic Common Fisheries Policy has left the seas denuded of fish, but for the dead bodies thrown back by the giant ships that vaccum up the whole sea bed, and throw back any fish outside their 'quota', dead.)

We are also grateful to the multinational companies that came and gave jobs when we had few. Now, of course, they're fleeing to somewhere cheaper, but let it pass.

The reasons we were to vote 'yes' seemed strange to me. The politicians said it would be impossible for 27 ministers to reach a consensus on every question, and so the number of permanent ministers (one from each country) had to be cut to 18.

What? Twenty-seven grown-up men and women can't negotiate and reach a consensus?

Then there were the sneaky bits about common defence policy and common taxes that no one wanted to explain. Some people denied they were in there; some said "Oh yes, but thye don't mean *that*".

Now the Eurocrats, furious at their will not being followed, are saying "Puh, the other 26 countries have ratified it" - not their people, but their parliaments - "and so they can go ahead and leave Ireland outside".

Showing their true colours, eh?

I even heard one person say on the radio that "Germany doesn't have referendums, because of their experience with the Third Reich". What???


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM

A thought has just struck me: When Michael and I went in to vote, we turned in our cards at the polling desk and both had to show I.D. Each of us presented our British passports, which were looked at and accepted with nary a peep. Surely that must mean that UK (i.e. European) citizens are eligible to vote? The Irish are enfranchised in Britain (though I don't know the finer details of it).

Wouldn't they have sent us packing upon sight of those lion-&-unicorn-encrusted maroon covers if we were required to be Irish citizens?


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM

Roberto, the worrying issues are really about enfranchisement, not economics (not that those aren't worrying also).   As Guest Amos said, "A democracy isn't a democracy if your vote is removed from you". The only reason Ireland even has such power is its constitutional right of referendum. The fact that the only country with the right to vote on this treaty has rejected it tells you something - as does the fact that the other countries who have ratified it have done so without their populaces being consulted.

As I've said at some length in the other Lisbon thread (wish the clones would combine them), if you leave it to the career politicans to do your voting for you, what real power do you have? And whose agenda is going to come first? Not necessarily yours. That's what's on a lot of people's minds.

Whichever side of the debate one is on, your pint idea sounds good. So here's one to you c[]


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM

I'm also a permanent resident of Ireland with a British passport, and as a citizen of the UK, which means the European Union, I've always been allowed to vote. They send me the cards automatically, so I don't know why the descrepancy. But I can't see that I hold any eligibility that you and Dick don't. I'm not an Irish citizen either. I have an RSI number and all the other bureaucratic bumf, but that shouldn't make any difference. (Or does it?) Captain B and I have both lived in Ireland for about the same time period.

My partner is also a British citizen residing here and he got a card too. I've lived here a lot longer, but They found him somehow and sent him a card. Does it have to do with that RSI number? If so (and if you don't have one) you can apply, even if you're not employed under any PAYE system. Michael's self-employed and has never worked for an external salary/wage while he lived here - whatever applies to him should apply to others.

??? Worth finding out about, anyway -


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM

As someone not noted for pro-EU sentiments, I will be having a theoretical pint of Guiness to celebrate. (Except I´m in Germany right now, and it´s all in litres here.)


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

I'm saddened about the vote in Ireland against the European Treaty. I think that the traditional national state is too small to try to rule global economy and finance and the other big global issues. I think that the European Countries that want to go on building Europe must decide what to do, not necessarily with those who seem to reject further steps and maybe prefer to stay at the common market level. The so-called two-speeds Europe, not the best choice, but it is becoming the only opportunity not to stop the whole process. But Ireland is so dear to me that I'm very, very sorry for what happened. I'll have a pint to recover from that (and a couple more to recover for Italy's deeds in the European Cup and in its long economical, political, social crisis). Roberto


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

Bonnie - I'm a permanent resident of Ireland and I'm on the electoral register but, because I'm not an Irish citizen, I'm not allowed to vote on constitutional affairs (which is what this was)so I didn't get a polling card. This, at least, is the story as I understand it, I hope I'm correct!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM

Someone with an inside contact PLEASE persuade a clone to combine the two Lisbon threads - I've just PM'd Joe, but it's 3:30 in the morning there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

GUESS WHAT I've just read on Aertel (daily news headlines on TV fax pages): The Taoiseach has said that while he "respects" the decision of the Irish people, he cannot rule out the possibility of a second referendum. Can you believe it? (I can.) Someone remind me again why we are supposed to entrust our voting rights to politicians?

Dick, if I'm eligible for a place on the electoral register, so are you. Go down to the Citizen's Advice Bureau and find out how to get a card. I think it's going to be All hands to the pump -


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:37 AM

As an aside the poster above who logged in as "Guest, Amos" was not meself, FWIW.

A


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:20 AM

I'm proud of you Ireland....Go mbeannai dia duit!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 AM

I'm proud of you, Ireland.....Go mbeannai dia duit!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Mr Grumpy
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:27 AM

Your second paragraph, Rapaire, is spot on themoney - and seems to indicate, as Marx predicted, the crisis in capitalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:39 PM

I see no reason why the people of EU shouldn't toss the buggers-up out and put in new buggers-up. At least the new ones will have an example. Never give up a right or representation, not for security, not for money, not for anything. Freedom is too dearly bought to be entrusted to bureaucrats and politicians.

And the EU should look to the US for the truth about privatization. Our airlines are going bankrupt, our health care needs drastic reform, our financial institutions are hat-in-hand to the government, our industries have moved elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:20 PM

>"What are they going to do, make us an offer we can't refuse?"
>Fortunately there aren't enough horses heads in the whole of Europe for that, Bonnie


It's the other end of the horse I'm worried about. There sure are enough of those.

I'm not anti-EU. I'm anti the Lisbon Treaty. One is not necessarily the same as the other. The abrogation of what I regard as basic human rights is what bothers me. Once gone, no amount of shouting and teeth-gnashing is going to get them back because: How do you do it, with no direct vote? If you allow your constitution - which is what gave us this referendum in the first place - to be neutered by those with outside interests? If you grant carte blanche solely to career politicians with their own agendas, which always will come ahead of yours? I believe the only reason the treaty was uniformly ratified by the other countries is because their populations were legally gagged. Is that the only way they can deal with the opposition? Give away your sovereignty and there IS no opposition. (That scenario remind you of anything?)

Economic issues - which fluctuate and always will - pale in comparison with having a voice in how your government governs you. Especially with so much dishonesty in high places, where they do it Because They Can. Why give them even more power to potentially abuse? Look what's happened already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:42 PM

For anyone curious about what the Lisbon Treaty actually says, here is an RTE page with a simplified version, annotations - and the full text, in Irish as well as English - "...if you have a lot of free time, patience and Solpadeine in your medicine cabinet, you can read the full version at the bottom of the page."

The BBC never bothers to provide this kind of stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: bfdk
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

A ressounding 'Whoppeee' from here, well done the Irish people!

I rejoice in this result. Our politicians here didn't have the guts to ask the Danish electorate. Had they, they might well have found us standing shoulder to shoulder with the Irish on this - and they knew..! I'm glad someone got the opportunity to throw a spanner in the works.

Bente


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:13 PM

I evidently do, Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM

I started the original, pre-referendum thread, but I'm happy with this one as it has stirred so many people to join in.
I am pro-EU. But if constitutional changes are being made which will have consequences for decades to come, I think it is all the people of Europe and not unelected officials or second-guessing representatives, who must decide (Look at the number of Irish TDs (MPs) who got it so wrong).
Now I just hope the rest of EU voters will stand up for their rights.
I realise that drafting a treaty that is understood and accepted by a EU-wide majority is not an easy task. That is the challenge France and Germany should be addressing instead of, as the latest news suggests, railroading through the Lisbon document.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM

Then you disagree with my Old English professor and not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:29 PM

There was a time when the Irish 'saved' the scrolls and writings of Old English from invaders who would have burned them.

Not strictly accurate, though in principle true enough - it was Latin writings and culture that were preserved in Ireland, and carried back to mainland Europe. The English hadn't got round to doing much writing at the time. In fact they were among the barbarian invaders engaged in destroying the remains of Roman civilisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

The EU has done some excellent things - it has pushed the development of sex discrimination law, of race discrimination law, of other discrimination laws against eg sex orientation, contract workers, and part time workers. It has gone some way to preventing wage slavery imposing 60 hour working weeks (except, unbelievably, for doctors).

It has failed to protect the rights of trade union workers and trade union agreements - Thatcher inspired legal technicalities still allow workers who stick to union negotiated agreements to be discriminated against.

It has proven utterly supine before the might of the digicrats. A little high profile posturing about the Microsnot monopoly, but tracing of users in case they go to unwelcomed websites (before long it will be the ones that support political change, just watch), exemptions for ISPs who cache material that infringes private rights, but the secret police for the ISP's who permit what the people really want - file sharing - and criminisation of the removal of "technical measures" that prevent people from exercising the rights they already enjoy under exceptions to copyright law.

More recently, the ECONOMIC community has bought wholesale into the management speak of privatisation that will make the citizen pay for infrastructure, but sell it to oligopolists so that they can force the citisens to pay again.

A curate's egg that requires urgent reform.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

There was a time when the Irish 'saved' the scrolls and writings of Old English from invaders who would have burned them. Maybe today we English speakers and users once again owe Ireland a thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:05 PM

"What are they going to do, make us an offer we can't refuse?"


Fortunately there aren't enough horses heads in the whole of Europe for that, Bonnie.

I just hope our own (UK) government are realising how they're going to pay for this at the next general election.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

""The other 459 million of us were not allowed to vote.
Our masters decreed that our acceptance was not required.
Thanks Ireland.""

Damn right Keith.

Thank God for Ireland, and for the Irish government, the only government in Europe with the guts to give its people a voice, and the honesty to listen to that voice and refuse to give up the freedom won at great cost such a short time ago.

They have done the rest of us a great service.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

friday 13, unlucky for the bureacrats and empire builders and fat cat politicians.
the labour party and fine gael,showed what establishment toadies they are.well done the Irish people and SinnFein.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM

I haven't been everywhere, but I think I was never more disturbed by armed cops than in France. I mean, cops carrying both a pistol AND a submachine gun? Regularly? Our cops carry pistols and have more firepower available, but only the pistols are usually carried openly. And no gun store I've ever seen in the States displayed an FALN assault rifle in the window, like the one did in Bordeaux.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

Maybe that's a typo for "police"


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