BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM

I'm also a permanent resident of Ireland with a British passport, and as a citizen of the UK, which means the European Union, I've always been allowed to vote. They send me the cards automatically, so I don't know why the descrepancy. But I can't see that I hold any eligibility that you and Dick don't. I'm not an Irish citizen either. I have an RSI number and all the other bureaucratic bumf, but that shouldn't make any difference. (Or does it?) Captain B and I have both lived in Ireland for about the same time period.

My partner is also a British citizen residing here and he got a card too. I've lived here a lot longer, but They found him somehow and sent him a card. Does it have to do with that RSI number? If so (and if you don't have one) you can apply, even if you're not employed under any PAYE system. Michael's self-employed and has never worked for an external salary/wage while he lived here - whatever applies to him should apply to others.

??? Worth finding out about, anyway -

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM

Roberto, the worrying issues are really about enfranchisement, not economics (not that those aren't worrying also).   As Guest Amos said, "A democracy isn't a democracy if your vote is removed from you". The only reason Ireland even has such power is its constitutional right of referendum. The fact that the only country with the right to vote on this treaty has rejected it tells you something - as does the fact that the other countries who have ratified it have done so without their populaces being consulted.

As I've said at some length in the other Lisbon thread (wish the clones would combine them), if you leave it to the career politicans to do your voting for you, what real power do you have? And whose agenda is going to come first? Not necessarily yours. That's what's on a lot of people's minds.

Whichever side of the debate one is on, your pint idea sounds good. So here's one to you c[]

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM

A thought has just struck me: When Michael and I went in to vote, we turned in our cards at the polling desk and both had to show I.D. Each of us presented our British passports, which were looked at and accepted with nary a peep. Surely that must mean that UK (i.e. European) citizens are eligible to vote? The Irish are enfranchised in Britain (though I don't know the finer details of it).

Wouldn't they have sent us packing upon sight of those lion-&-unicorn-encrusted maroon covers if we were required to be Irish citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:37 AM

I am absolutely pro-EU.

Ireland *was* the poorest country in Europe, and the wonderful help we got from the EU certainly did help to lift us out of that.

(In exchange, they got our fishing rights, the richest in Europe, and their lunatic Common Fisheries Policy has left the seas denuded of fish, but for the dead bodies thrown back by the giant ships that vaccum up the whole sea bed, and throw back any fish outside their 'quota', dead.)

We are also grateful to the multinational companies that came and gave jobs when we had few. Now, of course, they're fleeing to somewhere cheaper, but let it pass.

The reasons we were to vote 'yes' seemed strange to me. The politicians said it would be impossible for 27 ministers to reach a consensus on every question, and so the number of permanent ministers (one from each country) had to be cut to 18.

What? Twenty-seven grown-up men and women can't negotiate and reach a consensus?

Then there were the sneaky bits about common defence policy and common taxes that no one wanted to explain. Some people denied they were in there; some said "Oh yes, but thye don't mean *that*".

Now the Eurocrats, furious at their will not being followed, are saying "Puh, the other 26 countries have ratified it" - not their people, but their parliaments - "and so they can go ahead and leave Ireland outside".

Showing their true colours, eh?

I even heard one person say on the radio that "Germany doesn't have referendums, because of their experience with the Third Reich". What???

Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Welcome to the discussion Roberto. I want to hear more from disenfranchised Europeans, of whatever persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM

From the property pages in the Irish Times recently: The French government has decided to sell its embassy in Dublin.

Are they pulling out?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Lochronan
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

Last time they pulled out, after the Ballina races, the French officers and men were pardoned, sent home, and the Irish were executed! An earlier accord betwen the British and the French.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

It's the French Ambassador's residence, which is worth a mint. (I like the bit about Sean Dunne making his fortune in the law courts.) More here:

Friday January 18 2008
IT'S a complaint most home-owners will not have heard before. As the French Ambassador's sumptuous residence in the heart of Dublin goes on the market with an exclusive price tag of €60m, he revealed the home is so vast he has to send out an SOS on his mobile phone to locate his wife.

The French Government has decided to sell the property, which boasts one of the most sought after addresses in the country at Ailesbury Road in the heart of Dublin's "Embassy mile''. It's Chancery offices across the road, with a mere price tag of €20m, has also been placed on the market.

The vast 40-room house, number 53, formerly known as Mytilene, sits on just under two acres and covers 11,450 sq ft of living space. It boasts a cellar of French wine, countless fireplaces, the first-floor private quarters of the Ambassador, a restaurant fit for a Michelin- star chef and a major drawing room for entertaining.

As the house, which dates from 1900 was put on the market, Ambassador Yvon Roe D'Albert, who is only in the post for six-months in Ireland, said it was a fabulous location for hosting events, with a dining room capable for comfortably seating 45 people and a drawing room which would hold 120 guests. However, he said it may not suit families. "It's so big, I have to call my wife on her mobile phone if I want to talk to her," he revealed.

According to Lisney's John O'Sullivan, there is "disbelief in the city that it is going on the market" after almost 80 years in the ownership of the French Government. He added: "We have been dealing with very interesting inquiries already."

That leafy region of the capital is already home to a number of wealthy developers such as Sean Dunne, and others who have made their fortunes in the law courts and technology companies.

As part of a worldwide downsizing move, the French Government has decided to sell off a number of properties. However, they will be looking for an alternative accommodation for their Ambassador and offices for staff in the Ballsbridge area. It is believed they may consider exchanging the property for an alternative building plus cash.

The Ailesbury Road house also claims a colourful history of a rags-to-riches story. Around 1840, a homeless boy, who was selling newspapers at Donnybrook Fair in Dublin, found a large sun of money. After tracing the owner, he was rewarded for his honesty. George Bustard then set sale for Australia where he made his fortune. He never lived to realise his dream of building a house close to the fair. However, he left strict instructions in his will for his family to pursue his wishes, even down to using the expensive white stone which makes the residence unique on the road.

The house was purchased by the French Government in 1930.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

I combined our three threads on the Lisbon Treaty, since it's usually easier to follow a discussion if it's not trifurcated. I hope that's acceptable. If you want to know which message came from which thread, look at the message titles.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM

The Tiger economy???? Read the newspapers lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:05 PM

One of the best consolidated accounts of the Lisbon Treaty was publisehd around the start of June in Village Magazine (an current affairs monthly that also has a daily on-line version)

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM

Bonnie, you say you have a UK passport and was allowed to vote in the referendum despite not being an Irish citizen (correct?)

Irish citizens are allowed to vote in local, EU, general elections and referenda on the constitution. Non-Irish citizens from the EU are allowed to vote in local and EU elections. That's the situation as far as I know.

People born in Northern Ireland are automatically granted dual citizenship - they of course hold British passports, but may also apply for an Irish one (as far as I ma aware). It may be that you were born in the north, or that the officials at the register assumed you were when they saw your passport, but I'm surprised they didn't check.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM

No idea. It all happened as I said it did. In fact I'm American-born and it's readily apparent from both my accent and my English partner's that neither of us was born here. Everyone in the village knows I'm a Yank, and it was a local people in the polling station. We voted in the general election too, and I've always received the cards, and never pretended to be other than what I am. Ditto Michael. If you want to discuss this further, can you PM me?

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:11 PM

Its all a bit vague.

one set of circumstances saved deValera from going the way of Connolly etc, and another set of circumstances got Lord haw Haw hanged.

Shouldn't enquire too closely if I were you, as its working out alright for you. You got to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM

I guess I'm just an old Rebel....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

And, of course....

Now, therefore, we, the elected Representatives of the ancient Irish People in National Parliament assembled, do, in the name of the Irish Nation, ratify the establishment of the Irish Republic and pledge ourselves and our people to make this declaration effective by every means at our command.

We ordain that the elected Representatives of the Irish People alone have power to make laws binding on the people of Ireland, and that the Irish Parliament is the only Parliament to which that people will give its allegiance.

As well as...

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty: six times during the past three hundred years they have asserted it in arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom, of its welfare, and its exaltation among the nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM

Bonnie - I have an RSI no. too!

A friend of mine in the same situation as me got a polling card too -there's something funny going on here!

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 03:31 AM

Dunno - ?? I've always been sent polling cards and voted. I'd appreciate it if we could please discuss this by PM and not on the public board any further. I had no idea about any of this -

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 03:46 AM

Sorry, Jim, just twigged that you're not PM-able (brain cells aren't too good this hour of Sunday mornings).

My email is my name, all squished together with no spaces or dots {a t} g m a i l {d o t} com

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM

The French Ambassador's residence is a beautiful house, but huge and impossible to run, and families would prefer to live in a smaller and more modern place, apparently.

Ireland's economy is in trouble deep at the moment - unemployment figures are rocketing, the multinationals are pulling out and moving to Latvia, the housing bubble has gone pop, and the Government are standing gazing at themselves in the mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

JTT, that's right. The government ministers and spokesmen for the government over the past six months have been working overtime to paper over the cracks. They realize now that they have squandered their chance during the boom period to fix the health and education systems, to put a proper public transport infrastructure in place, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:57 PM

it's readily apparent from both my accent and my English partner's that neither of us was born here. That doesn't follow. Accents at most indicate we've spent a fair bit of time living in some place or another. There are millions of Irish born people with the accents of other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM

We live in a small village where everybody knows everybody, and we are recognised here for the nationalities we are. I'm speaking of a situation specific to myself only, and I really don't feel like discussing it publicly any further.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:00 AM

Thank you Ireland, from Texas. The Nazi Windsor-Saxe-Coburg-Gothas are trying to sell you out to the Commie U.N., and you said no. Hardee har har. Beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM

alternative.........the Lisbon ray gun??:

thread.cfm?threadid=92111#1757023

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Hmm, I think you all realise that a rejection of the Lisbon treaty just means that about half a dozen treaties (which make a much longer reading BTW) that were meant to be replaced by the Lisbon treaty stay valid instead.

That was not a vote against "Europe" though some seem to think it was. It was just a vote for the old (obviously not liked everywhere) bunch of treaties instead of the new one.

The new one had some interesting democratic opportunities like a referendum enforceable by (don't know how many) citizens of Europe.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rog Peek
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

It seems to me, if your political leaders tell you something is good for you, what they really mean is that it's good for them. I'd say if you work on the assumption that it won't be good for you, then you'll not go far wrong. All the political leaders in Ireland seem to have told the people the Lisbon treaty will be good for the people, so the people have voted no. Good for them!

Rog