An English Folk Awards..?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:46 AM

I've enjoyed coverage, via satellite, of the Mods from Scotland, but not the fleadhs...is it a similar thing?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:58 AM

"most people apart from[it would seem] Jim Carroll,enjoy the fleadhs,"
Cap'n,
I do wish you wouldn't make (in this case extremely inaccurate) statements on my behalf.
I have never discussed my experiences of nor attitude to fleadhs with you, so please be good enough to leave me out of your ramblings.
For the record, one of the most memorable fleadhs I ever attended was the one at Listowel back in the early 1970s when the leadership cancelled the proceedings in support of the troubles that had just broken out in the North of Ireland (yet another crackpot political/sectarian decision on their part) - no competitions, so the musicians who had turned up went ahead anyway and played purely for the love of the music - wonderful.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:17 AM

WAV, the monarchy has been part of good old English culture for a lot longer than tennis and country dances!!!!! Tsk tsk.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:18 AM

...and nothing wrong with learning from the Nepalese either, and dissolving the monarchy here...

Poem 225 of 230: AFTER PSALM 118:9 AND MATTHEW 4:8-10

The monarchies
    Now are blasphemies -
The only born-ruler
    Is a God-chosen Schooler.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 05:49 AM

Nothing wrong with learning from the Scots and their folk awards, of course. I hope one day soon their's is broadcasted by an SBC, and our's by an EBC.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

The EFDSS DID hold a songwriting competition a couple of years back, to be fair. Though, erm, on second thoughts that probably isn't the kind of competition most contributors here have in mind! A competition for performance and/or arrangement of English trad folk songs sounds like a perfectly good idea, provided it was open to all-I'd certainly enter.

(you can take that as a warning...:^)

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

I've never been to the EFDSS in London, but would like to check, in particular, those recordings you mention, WLD. I think the folk clubs and festival singarounds in NE England are generally encouraging to non-familiar faces. On the other hand, it does seem very difficult for anyone to make a living if they are not in the BBC's "club."

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:36 AM

I used to work in this school in Newtown in Brum, a Comp. Next to the comp was a tower of office block and EFDSS had an office there. One dinnertime I went to see this place, as I had a folk club in Castle Brom and I knew everybody in every folk club at the time. I thought there might be some confluence of interest.

I was told to get out, visitors weren't allowed. The EFDSS had nothing to do with folk clubs - they had no time for us and just for good measure - get out again.

I've never really bothered with them since. I'm sure they have something to pass on.   I've heard all the legends of the Watersons kipping in their library etc. since then.

But I've always thought since then that theres an unhealthy tendency in the folk movement generally to tell ordinary folk they can get stuffed, and that they are of no account. from whence does it flow....well I've got my suspicions.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

I guess before Beeching, Dick, it was possible to make a train day-trip to the Lake District from Newcastle, as I used to do from Bolton...would be nice. And I share your hopes for the EFDSS.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM

It is a Beckett play.
or perhaps its the third policeman,we are all gradually turning into a computer.
the EFDSS competitions took place a long time ago,WAV ,in the days when EFDSS used to successfully run folk festivals and have flourishing branches.
then one day rather like Dr Beeching and his draconian cutting of railway branches,they decided to get rid of their branches,and they decided they couldnt afford to run festivals any more,at the same time/or shortly after, they insisted that Cecil Sharp house,should not be sold,despite its heavy cost to maintain.
the trouble is if you deprive a tree of all its branches,its in danger of dying.
fair play to the present organisers/Volunteers they seem to be bringing at least a temporary come back to EFDSS,which I hope becomes permanent.I wish them every success with their efforts.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 07:44 AM

Yes, as with many threads, Ruth, there has been repetition here, but I, for one , have just heard something new - Dick says the EFDSS have run comps in the past...Members, other than Ruth, have visited this thread before - I wonder is anything afoot?...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 06:39 AM

How many times do we have to have the same arguments on this forum? Does it not start to feel like a flippin' Beckett play?

Yes - I know i've said that before.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:43 AM

Richard ,is quite right,the Irish tradition has survived,through the competition system,the down side is that Comhaltas through their marking system,have encouraged a certain style of playing.
ironically,they intended to preserve the music,but they have in fact intentionally altered it,to the detriment of certain regional styles,the plus side is thet, at any regional as well as national fleadh,it is a focus point,for thousands of musicians to get together and play.
of course,when Isuggested a competition or even examination system,some eighteen months ago,I was laughed to scorn,on this forum.
John Adams,even went so far as to take the piss out of my name.
Comhaltas do receive considerably more money than the EFDSSS,but this was not always the case,from 1951 to approximately 1966,they had to make do with very little government support.
I personally would be in favour of EFDSS reintroducing The competition system,yes, they used to do it.
It certainly has contributed to the strength of Irish traditional music.
however, I would suggest a slightly different marking system on tunes,one where ornamentation is not given more marks,than rhythm or danceability.
Comhaltas do have one or two eccentric rules,such as the non allowance of tunes in 3/4,the non allowance of english song translation from the Irish,such as Ned ofthe hill.but overall most people apart from[it would seem] Jim Carroll,enjoy the fleadhs,and treat it as agreat oppurtunity to meet up and play music with old friends.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM

200

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:35 AM

"So why are so many 'catters so keen to take every point they can to deny that the English traditions might benefit from the same or similar thing(s)?"

I think it'd be a great idea if, as you say it works on the Irish model where ability and understanding of the music are the key attributes a competitor requires for entry. However, WAV is typically evasive when it comes to who could enter, and that raises suspicions - not unreasonable.

Anyhow, I'm off to practice my English tunes on my Irish bouzouki.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:23 AM

Look, you are all being rather silly.

There are plenty of Irish championships for this or that part of Irish folk culture, and AFAIK if the panel/judge(s) don't think something is "close enough" it doesn't win prizes. Correct me if I'm wrong but the English can enter - they just (like Dick Miles) have to play eligible stuff in the preferred way and sometimes (also like him, according to his posts) sometimes they get marked down for playing the "wrong" instrument.

Borderline definitional issues do not negate the idea. The Irish competition system has contributed (it seems to me) to the revival and survival of much Irish folk culture. I may not want to listen to it but I am of the view that it is good to have it surviving and being played and enjoyed.

I have not seen so much about the Scottish system, but I do know they have piping competitions where teh judges debate the incomprehensible such s tendencies to hurry down one's pibrochs. I assume they contribute to the survival of the piping tradition.

The Welsh have thier Eisteddfodds (hmm not sure about that spelling) and I am relatively confident that they include some sorts of bardic competitions.

So why are so many 'catters so keen to take every point they can to deny that the English traditions might benefit from the same or similar thing(s)?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

.......................................................................;;
------------------------------------------------------------------------=
==========================================================================
111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111/
///////////////////////
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////----------------##
##############################////####///......////.......---------====445,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,\\
'\\''\'\'\\'\'\'''''\'\'\'\''''''\'\'\'\'\''\'\\\\\''''\'''\'\'\\\\''''\wavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavwavcwavwavwavwavvawvaw##
/?/?/////////?/?/??///?/?//??//???????/?????///????//??/??//??/////??/??

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:21 PM

Oh let him get on with it! You'll all be pissed off and crawling up his bum if it takes off like the Oscars.

an't be any worse than the radio 2/ folk event of the decade/proms/oh shit theres no audience/non events.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

Nope sorry stigweard! Try Eurovision!!!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:52 PM

Erm, well I'm half-Welsh, so can I enter my version of 'Chicken on a Raft'?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

Ah WAV, how could I have missed this tasty little gem of yours.
"with the main three branches of awards being traditional, covers, and self-penned performances/recordings... "

Unfortunately, the covers and self penned contradicts things you have said on here previously. Unless of course you have worked out all the stipulations and exceptions that would have to be applied. Where does Flook fall into this grouping then? How about when Martin Simpson is joined on his Kind Letters album by Danu? So....Michael McGoldrick, who has played across the boards with English, Irish, and Scottish musicians falls into what category? Can you get special dispensation if your album has 10 English things and one Irish, or does it have to be 100% English as defined by you? Covers? Does that mean someone from Ireland or Newfoundland can win an ENGLISH FOLK AWARD if they do a really great cover of an English song? Wow! maybe we have chipped away at you a bit. Self penned? Alright! Put the Killers up for a folk award then! I'm sure I could quantify that as folk music.

So here's the breakdown then I think WAV

Musicians have to have an unbroken lineage of verifiable English ancestry of not less than 500 years

Musicians up for the covers award can only be included if a) the previous rule applies, and b)that the song being covered is a 100% verifiable English song. It can have no other variants from elsewhere, nor can it contain any geographical, political, or historical reference to anywhere but England. (Scotland and Wales do not apply either)

Self penned numbers can ONLY be about a distinct English subject matter, ie, Marmite, Watney's Red Barrel, The Grenadier Guards, Manchester United, and so on. Self penned numbers must be in one of the approved English dialects only, and contain only recognizable regional slang.

In addition, all instruments used for the performances of any of the above mentioned categories must have their origin in England, and be made in England. No Italian melodeons, Martin Guitars, Irish bodhrans, etc.

Is it something like that WAV?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM

You work it out, and let us all know. It sounds very promising!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:12 PM

...a pie supper could be included at the event, WLD.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:02 PM

I can see you were brought up on First Aid in English - Volgadon.

a brown as a .....
as black as .......
as sweet as......

So what I suggest is WAV old chap. Close down the thread. Make up your roster of fame. And start another thread.
Publish and be damned. And send a press release to Rock and reel and Froots and The English Ping Pong and Prance gang.

You've got something in mind, do it.

As Norman Stanley Fletcher said, Ours not reason why - ours but to eat the pie!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:46 PM

WAV, you quite simply can't use a,an for plurals.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

An English folk awards for English folk musicians, singers and, yes, dancers, Stigweard.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:32 PM

C'mon WAV - does the musician have to be English, or the music played?

Hmm, but then it all goes back to how you define English. I mean, would English Banghra musicians be excluded?

We need some solid input here to get a flavour of the idea.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:23 PM

That will do, WLD - with the main three branches of awards being traditional, covers, and self-penned performances/recordings...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

well that's up to Wav. Its his idea.

An English Folk Awards - so what you're proposing is (correct me if I'm wrong):-

THE ENGLISH FOLK AWARDS

great! Get on with it and tell us when you've sorted it all out. We are agog.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

What exactly would be the criteria for the nominees then?

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM

I said AN English folk awards, Volgadon, as they are yet to exist - we have, rather British folk awards, and Scottish folk awards, but no English folk awards.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM

Well I think it should be left to WAV to choose the title of the awards he has initiated. Don't start nitpicking Volgadon, let him get on with it.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

WAV, don't you mean THE English folk awards, or just English folk awards? As a poet, try to respect your native tongue a little more.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:28 PM

I wouldn't say we're "getting nowhere," WLD...but the most likely way we'll get an English folk awards for an English nation is by default - sensible Scots, at least, are moving more-and-more toward independence, and God's speed to them.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:03 AM

No worries Bruce - WAV is quite capable of doing ALL that, all on his own.....!

Clever chap, the folk revival is safe in his hands. There is no time like the present, and I think I can speak for all when I say we await with bated breath the outcome of his industry.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:25 AM

"An English Folk Awards..?"

That would require that the award committee define folk. THAT is an opportunity NOT to be missed.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:16 AM

Look, an easy solution WAV.

Write to all the people you like - tell them they are all jolly good chaps. Publish the results of your deliberations for this year, on the internet and in the folk press.

Run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. Act unilaterally, I would.

You're obviously getting nowhere talking to us old 'stick in the muds'.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

I noticed the following will be at The Sage, Gateshead, ENGLAND, in September...Folkworks, BBC Radio Scotland's Young Traditional Musician of the Year 2008 Tour...BUT we still don't have a junior nor senior ENGLISH Folk Awards!...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

Forty lashes with a wet noodle, Greg.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

Thank You, Captain, a very touching (as it were :-D) tribute to a truly ummmm...well to a noted poet.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

Well, the last record I made was all English tunes. So I should be in WAV's good books. But what happens if he finds a copy of the previous one I made, which was all cajun and creole tunes, and featured JC Gallow,a black musician from Mamou, Louisiana.My, I'll be called to the headmaster's study!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:11 PM

viewing sex over a thicket:
hole in one,for once well timed.
viewing a man having sex with a bike.
an english tradition enshrined.
[dedicated to original poster,in the style of the great Walstzabout verse]

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

The 'Voices' collection was put together and produced by Paul Adams who felt that the English Tradition had been neglected by the World / Roots music movement of the late 1980's. Fair enough. Paul Adams did something about his opinion by compiling this CD.

An object lesson, I think

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:53 PM

"By the way, I am a Show Of Hands fan, and as Phil Beer has said, one of his favorite fiddle players was John Hartford, so the country influence is fairly obvious. Oh shit, I shouldn't have said that. WAV is going to say that not only should the singing of English music sound English, but the fiddle playing should as well, which means Show Of Hands may have just gone down another notch in his book."

Oh goodness me, Steve Knightley was accused of 'singing in the wrong accent' a VERY long time ago 'irishenglish', by an er...English Traditionalist in here (not WAV)

It led to The War of the Words, so best not to mention that too loudly in here. ;-)

Great to hear that you like their music though.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:49 PM

What I've enjoyed listening to the most (so much so that I wore it out) is a tape called "Voices" - all E. trads sung unaccompanied by various English folkies.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:35 PM

You think no one else but the English can feel like we've lost more than we'll ever know? Put that in any context, virtually anywhere in the world and put that quote to work and let me know what you come up with. Here's a few for you-the environment, war, the economy, wildlife,transportation. See? Broad concepts, taken across the board where we have lost more than we'll ever know. What's particularly ENglish about those WAV? What's particularly English about how we as a modern society fix those problems? Oh, I know-it's a Show Of Hands song! Of course they do have a song called It's All Your Fault, so I guess if we accept the morality lessons of Show Of Hand's songs then it's all your fault WAV.

By the way, I am a Show Of Hands fan, and as Phil Beer has said, one of his favorite fiddle players was John Hartford, so the country influence is fairly obvious. Oh shit, I shouldn't have said that. WAV is going to say that not only should the singing of English music sound English, but the fiddle playing should as well, which means Show Of Hands may have just gone down another notch in his book.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

Whatever you say WAV, whatever you say...

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:10 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, IE, but doesn't one of the lines in "Roots" go - "we've lost more than we'll ever know"?
To DS: if you had read this thread, you'd know that I do listen, mostly via satellite, to quite a lot of folk/acoustic radio so, of course, I've heard of those on IE's list.

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:08 PM

Actually he'll probably say that Ralph Mctell shouldn't have changed his name! May is much more of a proper English name!

Subject: RE: An English Folk Awards..?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:47 PM

irishenglish, why do I have the sinking feeling that WAV has never heard of Jacqui McShee, Steve Ashley or Steve Tilston (he'll likely now look them up on Wikipedia, and profess knowledge of them) Sandy Denny, Richard Thompson and Ralph McTell he'll likely say are FAR too pop music :-D