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Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock

SeaCanary 15 Jun 08 - 07:35 PM
Peace 15 Jun 08 - 10:07 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 08 - 10:36 PM
Charley Noble 16 Jun 08 - 10:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 10:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 08 - 10:49 PM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Jun 08 - 06:11 AM
Gibb Sahib 22 Sep 14 - 10:52 PM
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Subject: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock
From: SeaCanary
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:35 PM

Normally Google is my friend, but not this time.

Does anyone have any idea as to a source -- any source -- outside of this collection where I can find the song The Hornet and the Peacock?   I'm specifically interested in stuff similar to , "Collected by..." or "From the log of the ship..." or "It is the title-piece in a garland printed (or more likely, reprinted) in 1796..."   You get the idea. :-)

(If it shows up in Hugill or Huntington or Doerflinger or Palmer or Colcord I'm going to be highly chagrined.)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 10:07 PM

Not quite what you are looking for--but it may help.

http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/trackdetail.aspx?itemid=11842


If you click that link you'll notice just a little pit down on the right-hand side is a box where you can download liner notes. Do that. On page 15 there is info on the song.

Try a google of

"the hornet and the peacock", lyrics

Leave the quotation marks on there.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 10:36 PM

One of (at least two) topical broadside songs on the event. There's an edition by Deming of Boston at the America Singing site:

Hornet & peacock

Presumably the DT Hornet and the Peacock is from Burl Ives, though no source is credited.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacoc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:09 PM

SeaCanary-

The date "1796" makes no sense to me. The sea battle between the Hornet and the Peacock took place during the War of 1812. The exact date of this battle was February 24, 1812, off Bahia, the colonial capital of Brazil. It was an interesting battle, taking less than 15 minutes to complete. A Halifax newspaper commented later:

"If a vessel had been moored for the sole purpose of experiment, it is not probable that she could have been sunk in so short a time."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:31 PM

The version in the DT differs from the Burl Ives version only in one respect- Ives wrote 'Granny Weal,' not 'Granny Wale.'
The Burl Ives Songbook, 1953, pp. 140-141.

Another version of "Hornet and Peacock" at American Memory, no date, no publisher, includes spoken parts as well as verse.

Two more sheets published by Deming (no dates) mention that engagement.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:49 PM

William Duff reported a fragment, learned from his grandfather, who died in 1885. In Mary O. Eddy, 1939, "Ballads and Songs from Ohio," p. 107-108. A tune is given, which Eddy says resembles "The Laird of Cockpen."
The undated songsheets at American Memory are the earliest versions, perhaps written not long after the event by one of the many versifiers who wrote for the songsheet publishers. They indicate no tune.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:11 AM

The tune intended can in this case reasonably be deduced from the text. The late Bruce Olson had this to say in his study of the 'Granuaile' tune and various songs associated with it:

'For another historical song obviously to this tune, and in which Granu Weale reappears, see "The Hornet and the Peacock" in the Digital Tradition Database. Thanks to Dick Greenhaus for this reference. A fragment of it (which does not mention Granuaile), and which is to a different tune is "The peacock that lived in the land of King George" in Mary Eddy's 'Songs and Ballads of Ohio', #107.'

http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/SONGTXT1.HTM#GRNWALE

In fact, 'Granuwail' as it appeared in B Cooke's Selection of Twenty One Favourite Original Irish Airs (c1795), does bear a noticeable resemblance to 'The Laird of Cockpen' (formerly known as 'When She Cam Ben She Bobbit'). Ives doesn't say where he got his text or tune, but the latter appears to be a form of 'Granuwail'.

The second broadside at American Memory is a quite different song on the same subject, and intended for a different tune.

The 'Hornet & Peacock' broadside carries the imprint 'L. Deming, No 61, Hanover Street, Boston, and at Middlebury, Vt'.

The bookseller and barber Leonard Deming (1787-1853) seems to have operated from 61 Hanover Street from around 1837, having previously been next door at number 62; and prior to 1832, at 1 Market Square Corner. That's rather after the actual battle, so presumably there were earlier editions. (Details extracted from http://hubpages.com/hub/American-Book-Trade-Index).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Source for The Hornet And The Peacock
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 10:52 PM

Thanks to all who provided information in this thread.

I am currently exploring performing this song. I'll be wanting to sing it to the tune presumably sung by Ives. I say presumably because I have not heard Ives' recording - originally released in 1950. However, I have seen Eddy's volume, with the version collected from Ohio - and this is, so far as I'm presently able to tell, the only documented version with tune.

I am aware that this was probably not the "original" tune - or rather, not the tune imagined the ballad would be sung to when it was created. However, it's a tune that got connected with the ballad in some subsequent performances, with which my own performances would be engaging.

I conjecture that Ives used Eddy's (1939) book. Why? Because: presumed lack of other sources when he made his 1950 recording. While Eddy's informant only supplied one verse, Ives would have (I speculate) married it's tune to lyrics sourced from the several available broadside sources. I conjecture further that the Folkways recording, by Wallace House (1954) took its cue from Ives' performance, because: It includes the "non-original" tune married to the broadside text, and Ives' recording, billed as it was on a recording of "America's Musical Heritage," would have been a likely source.

If anyone has other ideas, about this transmission of versions/interpretations, I'd be pleased to hear them.

The Eddy / Ives(?) / House melody was used by the composer Clare Grundman in an arrangement for concert band, composed in 1952. I speculate, too, that Grundman used Ives' 1950 recording as a source. It is with the Grundman band arrangement that I am engaging, hence my interest in this particular tune being attached to "Hornet and Peacock."

Incidentally, I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that this ballad was ever very popular. In this regard, it is curious that Grundman included it in his arrangement, "Fantasy on American Sailing Songs." I read this as more evidence to suggest that Grundman came upon the song, rather by happenstance, on Ives' album set and supposed it was a reasonably popular "American sailing song"…even though it wasn't.


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